Charles Rosen's Most Overrated List...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Saw this on FoxSports and thought I'd post it:



http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9852462/Who-are-the-NBAs-most-overrated-players?







Who are the NBA's most overrated players?
by Charley Rosen





Don't be fooled by stats, fan-voted All-Star Game appearances, highlighted plays and/or media hype. While every combatant in the NBA is a truly great player, too many of them are gauged by misleading standards.

Here are the most grossly over-valued, not-so superstars.



Chris Andersen

Yes, he can run, jump and dash to the ball from the weak side to dramatically block shots. And his masquerading as a tall, tattooed fowl is amusing if juvenile. But he can't shoot a lick and, most importantly, is incapable of adequately defending virtually any opponent on a man-to-man basis. What Andersen does is surely crowd-pleasing and can occasionally impact the outcome of a game, but it's mostly phony defense.


Gilbert Arenas

He's on this particular list because of his numerous forced shots, his inability to run an offense and his miserable lack of both on- and off-the-ball defense. Also, don't forget the many times he's choked in the deciding moments of playoff games. Arenas' game is less than meets the eye.



Carlos Boozer

He can score from the low post, hit mid-range jumpers and is — at best — a two-space rebounder. On the downside, Boozer either can't or won't play defense, is an erratic passer and handler, can't run, can't move laterally and just doesn't play as vigorously without the ball as he does when the rock is in his hands. Smart teams have an easy time neutralizing Boozer's effectiveness.



Chris Bosh

What does this guy do? Shoot jumpers. Grab mostly finesse rebounds. Shoot more jumpers. Register more turnovers than assists. Keep on shooting jumpers. Play inferior defense except in the sub-par competition of international play. He does enough to fill up a stat sheet, but not enough to be a bona-fide franchise player.

Marcus Camby

Like Andersen, he can block shots coming from the weak side but can be attacked with profit in straight-up defensive situations. He's also shot-happy, rarely grabs his rebounds in heavy and hostile traffic and is a terrible passer. And the fact that during his 13-year career the combined record of the teams he's played for is a dismal 459-573 suggests that Camby is a loser.



Kevin Garnett

His performance in the 2008 NBA Finals against the Lakers was a good indication of where he's really at.

# In Boston's six-point loss in Game 3, Garnett shot 6-for-21.

# In Boston's five-point loss in Game 5, Garnett scored only 13 points and missed several shots in the fourth quarter.

# In Boston's championship-clinching, 39-point win in Game 6, Garnett registered his series high of 26 points.

In other words, it is well-known among the league's coaches that Garnett is a frontrunner who will inevitably choke when a critical game is up for grabs.

There's less to Al Harrington's game than his scoring average. (Garrett Ellwood / Getty Images)



Al Harrington

For the initial 36 minutes or thereabouts, Harrington is one of the most dynamic scorers in the NBA. Forget that he doesn't pass, execute or play a semblance of defense. The young man can set a scoreboard on fire. Come the clutch, however, and Harrington takes (and misses) bad shots, even misses good shots, chases the ball at both ends of the court and makes foolish mistakes. For example, how many extra fourth-quarter points did he allow the Knicks' opponents to score in tight games by foolishly hanging on the rim? Too many. As much as he wants to start, Harrington is best suited to be a designated scorer off the bench who should stay glued to the bench in the endgame.



Stephen Jackson

He's a streaky, low-percentage shooter with absolutely no conscience. His defense is strictly imaginary. His ball-handling skills are far below average for a backcourt player. He thinks he's a leader, but nobody wants to follow him.



Brad Miller

This guy could easily be the least athletic big man in the NBA. In fact, several of the league's most prominent centers have privately expressed their embarrassment whenever Miller scores double digits against them. And despite his bulky frame, he's about as tough as the Pillsbury Dough Boy. Yes, Miller can hit open shots and make nifty passes. But he survives mainly because defenders tend to ignore him.



Chris Paul

There's no doubt that CP3 has always been a truly great passer and has also worked diligently to become a dangerous 3-point shooter. But there are several reasons why he belongs in this dubious category.

# In half-court offenses, he's a threat to do damage only in screen-and-roll situations, which means that doubling him virtually renders him impotent.

# Because of his diminutive size — listed at 6-feet but closer to 5-foot-10 — he can be easily doubled.

# His defense consists of steals. Period. Which in turn depends mostly on opponents' mistakes.

# Many opponents simply take the ball to their favorite spot and then shoot over him.

# Even when using a screen-and-roll, he's not nearly as effective going left as he is going right.

When was the last time that a pipsqueak-sized point guard led his team to an NBA championship? Slater Martin with the St. Louis Hawks in 1958 — which means that while Paul's Hornets will be a good team, they'll never be good enough.



Dishonorable mention

The following multi-talented players have led their respective teams nowhere for so many years that their being overrated is no longer news. Stephon Marbury, who only last week still insisted that he's the best point guard in the NBA. Dirk Nowitzki. Baron Davis. Peja Stojakovic. Amare Stoudemire. Vince Carter. Larry Hughes. Corey Maggette. Shawn Marion. Kenyon Martin. Tracy McGrady. Jermaine O'Neal. Wally Szczerbiak. And last and least, Allen Iverson.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

lol Dirk should not be on that list.

Chris Andersen is a bit harsh as well.

[DPG21920]

That was brutal but :lol at KG

[KSeal]

I'd say Chris Bosh is the most overrated out of all of these.

[dirk4mvp]

Stephen Jackson's D is imaginary? I know Dirk was double and tripled teamed that series, but Jack did about the best job I've seen holding him 1 on 1.

[phyzik]

the only question I have is.....

How the fuck is Andrew Bynum NOT on this list???....

The guy hasnt done shit yet except for a 2 or 3 month stint in which he played really well.... almost 2 years ago.... but yet he is hyped up into the pantheon of Dwight Howard, Or, if you listen to faker fans, Tim Duncan! :bang

LOL at Dirk being overrated BTW. I hate the Mavs just as much as anyone else but Dirk overrated? :rollin At worst its Cuban and the front office of the Mavs who are overrated.

[mystargtr34]

Wow, those are some weak arguments :lol.

[Spursfan 87]

Great list

[j-money24]

Yah i agree, Bynum should be on top of the list.

[phyzik]

Yah i agree, Bynum should be on top of the list.

To be fair, I dont think he should be at the top of the list, he HAS shown the talent to be good (even great if he can get his defensive rotations right and not foul so much), I think he would rank ahead of Bosh or Camby as more overrated, certainly Boozer is more overrated IMHO. At this point he is not the most overrated but he is deffinately in the mix IMHO. If Odom leaves this year, he will have a chance to prove himself one way or the other. Still, Bynum should DEFINATELY be on this list at this point.

[Lars]

Pretty dumb list imo.

[Cry Havoc]

Horrible list.

I don't think Bynum's on there because he has a lot of people questioning him right now. He needs to prove that he's going to do something before he's put back on the list of "potential stars".

[TDMVPDPOY]

bogut and redd should be on that list

joe johnson who should be on that list, this guy wanted the money, wanted to be a franchise player...hasnt led the hawks to anything

[Bob Lanier]

Half the players he listed are either on their last contracts or out of the NBA altogether.

[Bob Lanier]

the only question I have is.....

How the fuck is Andrew Bynum NOT on this list???....
The author is Charley Rosen, Phil Jackson's bestest friend.

[23LeBronJames23]

dunbest list i have ever seen.
Hey maybe we should say that all the All Stars are overrated.
DUMB LIST!

[johngateswhiteley]

...pretty good list, imo.

[KidCongo]

I'm surprised LeBron isn't on there.

[Rogue]

Pretty dumb list imo.
you are absolutely right, bro. The author of this retarded article simply has no business about a league called NBA, dude was so stupid as to involve Dirk in his foolish list while ignoring the most overrated player ever of NBA history whose name is Yao.

[angelbelow]

I think hes TOO specific. You could probably come up with a glaring weakness every player in the game.

[024]

i agree with the chris bosh one. the list is pretty accurate. bynum isn't on there because he's not being paid $12 million yet. the chris andersen attack was pretty harsh but it is true that his man to man defense ins mediocre at best.

[Culburn369]

joe johnson who should be on that list, this guy wanted the money, wanted to be a franchise player...hasnt led the hawks to anything

Cogent point. Good for you.

[Muser]

Dirk overrated :lmao

[mojorizen7]

This guy's a fucking moron with a word processor and somebody pays him to use it.
This list is garbage. He must be on his period to write this....just fodder to stir the pot journalism.


Oh and where's Lamar Odom on this list?

[Mr Bones]

Chris Paul

There's no doubt that CP3 has always been a truly great passer and has also worked diligently to become a dangerous 3-point shooter. But there are several reasons why he belongs in this dubious category.

# In half-court offenses, he's a threat to do damage only in screen-and-roll situations, which means that doubling him virtually renders him impotent.

# Because of his diminutive size — listed at 6-feet but closer to 5-foot-10 — he can be easily doubled.

# His defense consists of steals. Period. Which in turn depends mostly on opponents' mistakes.

# Many opponents simply take the ball to their favorite spot and then shoot over him.

# Even when using a screen-and-roll, he's not nearly as effective going left as he is going right.

When was the last time that a pipsqueak-sized point guard led his team to an NBA championship? Slater Martin with the St. Louis Hawks in 1958 — which means that while Paul's Hornets will be a good team, they'll never be good enough.

I'm not a Hornets fan, but this seems crazy to me. Paul increased the win total of his team dramatically, moreso than other stars who are not on this list.

The argument that he can be doubled is negated by the earlier statement that he is truly a great passer.

And diminutive guards that have led teams to championships? Bob Cousy, Nate Archibald, Tony Parker...

[NickiRasgo]

Damn! This is the worst list I ever seen. Rating a player in just a one game? Like Kevin Garnett performance in Boston's six-point loss in Game 3, Garnett shot 6-for-21. I'll remember when Kobe hits 9 out of 26 shots against Indiana Pacers last 2000 NBA Finals.

[ElNono]

It's Rosen... what do you expect?
I'm actually surprised he didn't include David Robinson on the list, considering he rarely misses an occasion to rag on the Admiral.

[ambchang]

No surprises that there isn't one single Laker player on that list, Rosen being the Phil Jackson homer once again.

And to throw Garnett (the team who totally embarrassed the Lakers), and Paul (the MVP challenger to Kobe in 2008) out there like that was way too obvious.

[Supergirl]

yah i agree, bynum should be on top of the list.

+1

[Culburn369]

And to throw Garnett (the team who totally embarrassed the Lakers), and Paul (the MVP challenger to Kobe in 2008) out there like that was way too obvious.

You got no right talking about "embarrassed"...not after the Mavs, a few month ago gave you a 4-1 ass pounding you'll not soon ferget, daddy-O.

Uh, uh.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

joe johnson who should be on that list, this guy wanted the money, wanted to be a franchise player...hasnt led the hawks to anything


wtf?

[Findog]

lol dirk should not be on that list.



+ 1,000,000

[Findog]

I'm not a Hornets fan, but this seems crazy to me. Paul increased the win total of his team dramatically, moreso than other stars who are not on this list.

The argument that he can be doubled is negated by the earlier statement that he is truly a great passer.

And diminutive guards that have led teams to championships? Bob Cousy, Nate Archibald, Tony Parker...

I agree with everything except this. Tony Parker has never been the best player on a team that won a title.

[BadOdor]

And diminutive guards that have led teams to championships? Bob Cousy, Nate Archibald, Tony Parker...

Lol.

[DJB]

Kevin Garnett

His performance in the 2008 NBA Finals against the Lakers was a good indication of where he's really at.

# In Boston's six-point loss in Game 3, Garnett shot 6-for-21.

# In Boston's five-point loss in Game 5, Garnett scored only 13 points and missed several shots in the fourth quarter.

# In Boston's championship-clinching, 39-point win in Game 6, Garnett registered his series high of 26 points.

In other words, it is well-known among the league's coaches that Garnett is a frontrunner who will inevitably choke when a critical game is up for grabs.



:lmao:lmao:lmao

[in2deep]

add bynum and amare and its a pretty good list

[TFloss32]

I agree with everything except this. Tony Parker has never been the best player on a team that won a title.

That's debatable for the '07 championship. Duncan and Parker's scoring averages were neck and neck and it was a time where it was evident that the Spurs were becoming Tony's team. Both Tim and Tony had a solid series against the Cavs, but Tony is the reason the Spurs took it 4-0 (hence the Finals MVP).

And if this list has anything to do with the intangibles that it takes to win, then Vince Carter is the most overrated player ever.

[Thunder Dan]

hell yeah, Lebron didn't make the list so all you haters are wrong when you call him Lehype and all that bullshit.

[rjv]

lol at dallas having two of the honorable mention players in dirk and marion.

[lil_penny]

Charlie rosen is such a douche

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk is not overrated. I'll always respect him after last season leading that group of scrubs and that horrible coaching staff to 50+ wins. And how exactly has he led his team nowhere? Yeah, maybe he didn't have the best finals series in the world.....neither did Josh Howard, Devin Harris, or really anyone besides Jason Terry. Against Golden State, he was double and triple teamed, yeah Michael Jordan was able to beat double and triple teams, but no one ever said Dirk was Michael Jordan. If Dirk was the only guy on his team who choked, then yeah he's overrated. When the 2nd leading scorer on the team is a way bigger choker, it's a different story.

It's funny that I used to make fun of Dirk a lot and get in some really nasty arguments with Dirk4mvp and Monos (like when they created the nickname ponytail douche), then BenJarvusOthelloTron showed up and I allied with all the Mavs fans because that guy was such a douche bag.

[TFloss32]

hell yeah, Lebron didn't make the list so all you haters are wrong when you call him Lehype and all that bullshit.

Yeah! You tell 'em Thunder Dan. LeBron isn't overrated...dude is closest thing to a human triple-double that the NBA has. Your team, the Cleveland Cavaliers are overrated (which was very evident in the '09 ECF). Even more so now that you have the Big Diesel...Aristotle...Cactus...what is he now?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Is there some way that Charlie Rosen can be pinked?

[Ditty]

dirk is overated all he can do is shoot

cant play defense or lead a team

hes a good player but was never a franchise player

[Phillip]

charley rosen is overrated

[Findog]

That's debatable for the '07 championship. Duncan and Parker's scoring averages were neck and neck and it was a time where it was evident that the Spurs were becoming Tony's team. Both Tim and Tony had a solid series against the Cavs, but Tony is the reason the Spurs took it 4-0 (hence the Finals MVP).

And if this list has anything to do with the intangibles that it takes to win, then Vince Carter is the most overrated player ever.

I agree about VC. He's a joke. But the main reason Parker was free to go wild on the Cavs is because of the defensive attention paid to Duncan. I still think Duncan is your best player, but as of now it's more like Duncan is 1A and Parker is 1B. In 2007 I think the pecking order was firmly established as Duncan:Batman and Parker: Robin.

[Findog]

dirk is overated all he can do is shoot

And send the Spurs fishing

[himat]

Its an okay list, but Im glad some writer finally called out KG. Paul Pierce is easily the best player on that team. Screw KG.

[TFloss32]

I agree about VC. He's a joke. But the main reason Parker was free to go wild on the Cavs is because of the defensive attention paid to Duncan. I still think Duncan is your best player, but as of now it's more like Duncan is 1A and Parker is 1B. In 2007 I think the pecking order was firmly established as Duncan:Batman and Parker: Robin.

Well, since the stats are pretty much even, I guess it's individual perspective. Lots of defensive attention is always paid to Duncan, but the Cavs had absolutely nobody who could defend Parker (but then again, who does?) I think Parker is the best we've got now, mainly because of his youth and vastly improved jumper. Our offense was clearly stagnant when Tony was out of the game last year. If the Spurs win it all in 2010, Tony will be 1A and you'll be able to rescind your comment about Tony and championships.

[TFloss32]

And send the Spurs fishing

And lose to 8th seeded teams...Had to FinDog.

[Culburn369]

I think Parker is the best we've got now

Yes.

[Kamnik]

I'd say Chris Bosh is the most overrated out of all of these.

I agree.

He was even mentioned as an MVP candidate several times in his career. But in fact he only nicely fills the stat sheet with some rebounds and points but his overall effectivness is really bad. He could be a good sidekick to someone like Gasol is, but that is pretty much it.

Not a franchise player.

[Culburn369]

He could be a good sidekick to someone like Gasol is

Yes.

[Findog]

Apparently neither of you were watching basketball when Carter took the Raptors by himself to 7 games with the eventual eastern conference champion 6ers.


That sixer team was not that good. It was AI in his prime and a bunch of role players winning a weak Eastern Conference.



Vince Carter is the most underrated superstar the NBA has. He is EASILY, EASILY the most skilled player I've ever seen. That includes Jordan. Is his career even comparable to Jordan's? Absolutely not. Is he more skilled? In my opinion, yes. There's nothing Vince Carter cannot do on the basketball floor. Jordan didn't have range. Carter can shoot a better percentage taking 30 foot 3's than Jordan could shooting 25 footers. And 5 feet, at that deep, is a big, big difference. Let's also remember Jordan had ELITE players and role players around him. Anyway, the main point is that Carter can do everything that Jordan can do except he has unlimited range on his jumper.

And the only person who can stop Vince Carter is himself, which he frequently does. He's considered overrated because he rarely if ever plays up to his talent. There's no reason why a nucleus of Carter, Harris and Lopez should only win 33 games in the East. He's a heartless loser.

[fo'shizzle]

stupid list, imo

Basically, his premise is, if you can't play good man-to-man defense, you're overrated.
I stopped reading the article midway

[Findog]

Harris is a good player, no doubt. Lopez has POTENTIAL. However, last season the only thing he could do was play good D and rebound. All of his baskets were gimmes. He cannot score on the block and his jumper is average at best. You put Kobe in the same situation, and he's not making the playoffs, I guarantee that.

Kobe, Devin, Lopez and spares are making the playoffs in the East. I don't necessarily expect them to win a series, but they're making the playoffs.

Kobe is a competitor. VC is not.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

stupid list, imo

Basically, his premise is, if you can't play good man-to-man defense, you're overrated.
I stopped reading the article midway

His man-to-man defense argument was legit, but saying players like Stephen Jackson aren't good man-to-man defenders is just stupid.

His point is that players like Birdman who are considered lockdown defensive studs by the common NBA fan shouldn't be since their man-to-man defense is horrible.

[Findog]

I agree that Kobe is a way better competitor than Vince on most nights, but they're not making the playoffs with that roster. No way. One of the big reasons Harris had a breakout season was that Carter took a back seat to him offensively and allowed him to flourish. I don't think you could say Kobe would do the same for him.

Harris is a good player, but he strikes me as a bit one-dimensional. He doesn't make his teammates better. He's not a great passing PG that runs sets very well. Avery Johnson got on his ass to play defense but Lawrence Frank doesn't. He can take anybody off the dribble and his mid-range jumper has improved. Other than that, he's an Allen Iverson starter kit at this point and little else. In fact, if you look at his last year with Dallas and his first full season with the Nets, the only thing he really showed an improvement on was getting to the FT line. Everything else is simply him playing more minutes for New Jersey and getting more touches. While I wasn't in favor of the Kidd for Harris swap, Devin hasn't really shown anything in NJ that he didn't do in Dallas except for a little better propensity for drawing fouls. He'd still be a third or fourth option for us and would still be scoring 15 points a game, not 23.

Kobe would never defer to Devin Harris, and his team would be better off for it.

[Findog]

He cannot score on the block and his jumper is average at best

If Lopez has no post game and a weak jumper, how did he shoot 53% from the floor as a rookie?

[Findog]

Who would be a 3rd or 4th option? Harris? He's better than anyone you've got outside of Dirk...

Harris is not better than a healthy/motivated Josh.

[ambchang]

You got no right talking about "embarrassed"...not after the Mavs, a few month ago gave you a 4-1 ass pounding you'll not soon ferget, daddy-O.

Uh, uh.

1) The Lakers lost by 39 points in Game 6, in the Finals. The Spurs never did that.
2) I never really had a huge association with the Spurs, not to the degree where I will take a 4-1 loss as my loss.
3) What is so embarrassing about losing a series in the playoffs? 15 out of 16 teams meet that fate every single year.
4) I advise you seek psychological help, someone who can tie every single thing to the Spurs 1-4 series lost to the Mavs this past season is obviously obsessive.

[TheSullyMonster]

Yeah! You tell 'em Thunder Dan. LeBron isn't overrated...dude is closest thing to a human triple-double that the NBA has.

Rajon Rondo says hi.

[Phillip]

Vince Carter is the most underrated superstar the NBA has. He is EASILY, EASILY the most skilled player I've ever seen. That includes Jordan. Is his career even comparable to Jordan's? Absolutely not. Is he more skilled? In my opinion, yes. There's nothing Vince Carter cannot do on the basketball floor. Jordan didn't have range. Carter can shoot a better percentage taking 30 foot 3's than Jordan could shooting 25 footers. And 5 feet, at that deep, is a big, big difference. Let's also remember Jordan had ELITE players and role players around him. Anyway, the main point is that Carter can do everything that Jordan can do except he has unlimited range on his jumper.

When factoring everything in (skills, athleticism, naturalness) I think him and T-Mac are the two most gifted basketball players I've ever seen (and they are cousins at that).

I don't think that VC is heartless like some people say, but I don't think he has as big of a will to win as guys like MJ, Bird, Kobe, or Lebron had/has. Those guys literally look like they were/are about to start vomiting uncontrollably or be on suicide watch when they lose, while it seems like VC doesn't get affected as much.

T-Mac's career I think was just screwed by injuries, so he never was able to develop into the player he could have been in his prime. But I personally think he's the most gifted, natural basketball player the game has seen.

[TheSullyMonster]

Are you really comparing Rondo's triple double potential to a man who could possibly AVERAGE a triple double for a season? lol

I'm saying Rondo was closer to averaging one then LeBron was in the playoffs, yes.

[Phillip]

I've never been a fan of McGrady. Yes, he's talented but he's truly frail and has never played any defense. Fans tend to criticize Carter's D, but I've never actually heard a player or coach call him out like McGrady has been called out. I think McGrady is talented but Carter does the same things equal or better to McGrady. And he's still going. McGrady's career might already be over. Still hasn't been out of the first round, despite GREAT talent on his team. The minute he sits out for the playoffs, they advance. I think it speaks volumes.

Injuries does a lot to a man's career.

[sonic21]

Dirk is honorable mention on a Most OVERRATED list?

WTF

[Mr Bones]

Vince Carter's final year with Toronto will always stand out for me as one of the most blatant examples of tanking that I've ever seen. It may not be completely unforgivable, but it's close.

[resistanze]

Vince Carter's final year with Toronto will always stand out for me as one of the most blatant examples of tanking that I've ever seen. It may not be completely unforgivable, but it's close.

Yep, dude is trash. Even dumber was the GM that waited to trade him when his value was least. Even then, he still got robbed for what Carter was worth at the time.

[Findog]

Vince Carter's final year with Toronto will always stand out for me as one of the most blatant examples of tanking that I've ever seen. It may not be completely unforgivable, but it's close.

I can't believe anybody would say one nice word about Vince Carter. He makes me ashamed and embarrassed as a North Carolina Tar Heel fan:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2004/12/19/cartertip041219.html

[dirk4mvp]

lol well he's the best dunker ever at least. And I agree with stretch about T-Mac. He's the smoothest scorer I've seen, albeit I'm only 19.



Dirk is honorable mention on a Most OVERRATED list?


WTF

Is this the same guy that wrote that article trying to prove to us that Pau is better than Dirk?

[Phillip]

lol well he's the best dunker ever at least. And I agree with stretch about T-Mac. He's the smoothest scorer I've seen, albeit I'm only 19.

Agreed. And his defense is underrated by some as well. He is one of the very few I've actually seen do a good job on defending Dirk 1-on-1.

lol colts

[Strike]

I'm surprised LeBron isn't on there.

If you put Lebron James on a list of most overrated players, the next day you would "disappear."

[Mr Bones]

Chris Bosh

What does this guy do? Shoot jumpers. Grab mostly finesse rebounds. Shoot more jumpers. Register more turnovers than assists. Keep on shooting jumpers. Play inferior defense except in the sub-par competition of international play. He does enough to fill up a stat sheet, but not enough to be a bona-fide franchise player.I'd say this is not a good scouting report on Bosh. Last year, Bosh was fourth in the league at free throw attempts behind Howard, DWade, and LeBron. The idea that he is simply a jump shooter is not accurate. There's no way a passive offensive presence goes to the free throw line more often than Kobe, Pierce, Dirk, Chris Paul, and Brandon Roy. That just doesn't make sense.

[TFloss32]

Rajon Rondo says hi.

Basically irrelevant to the point I made about LeBron. Yeah, Rajon had a great post season. Missing Garnett and having multiple overtime games will indeed boost your stats. Nevertheless, LeBron and Rondo's numbers were basically the same across the board (except for points where LeBron doubled Rondo 35 to 17).

Generally speaking, LeBron has the better shot at a triple-double every time he steps on the floor because he's the better player and he has to do way too much for the Cavs to be successful.

[mountainballer]

wow, good list.
I like Rosen, he usually has a point and usually doesn't go with the mainstream. CP was a surprise on that list and for sure to harsh. but even there Rosen has a valid point.

[Phillip]

wow, good list.
I like Rosen, he usually has a point and usually doesn't go with the mainstream. CP was a surprise on that list and for sure to harsh. but even there Rosen has a valid point.

his points are shit

he purposely says everything wrong so he can grab headlines and attention

unfortunately he may not realize that people don't think hes some kind of genius that thinks in ways they dont. its obviously backfired because people think hes a fucking dickfaced moron, because thats what he is.

[TFloss32]

Vince Carter is the most underrated superstar the NBA has. He is EASILY, EASILY the most skilled player I've ever seen. That includes Jordan. Is his career even comparable to Jordan's? Absolutely not. Is he more skilled? In my opinion, yes. There's nothing Vince Carter cannot do on the basketball floor. Jordan didn't have range. Carter can shoot a better percentage taking 30 foot 3's than Jordan could shooting 25 footers. And 5 feet, at that deep, is a big, big difference. Let's also remember Jordan had ELITE players and role players around him. Anyway, the main point is that Carter can do everything that Jordan can do except he has unlimited range on his jumper.


I assure you that VC is overrated, his lack of accolades proves this. No All-NBA (first teams) and no All-Defensive. He has nothing to show for himself to even be mentioned in the same breath as MJ (11 All-NBA and 9 All-Defensive). The only thing that MJ and VC have in common is they're both bald headed and wore Carolina blue in college. The only reason they're even compared at all is because of finishing ability.

Who cares if MJ's 3pt percentage was average? He was a 30+ point ppg for his career. Plus, it's 37% to 33% in favor of VC (not that big of a difference and he can't give you a ppg like Jordan could).

What ELITE players did Jordan play with? He had Scottie Pippen and a bunch of other guys that just knew how to play the game. VC has had more overall talent on his side throughout his career, and even more so now that he's in Orlando.

All in all, Jordan is the better scorer and defender, has a waaaay better basketball IQ and had all of the intangibles (main reason VC has never won anything) to win championships.

[Biggems]

How the hell did Grandpa Greg avoid the list?

[Biggems]

I guess Kandi is no longer in the league. He definitely belongs on the list.....Kwame Brown too.

[TheSullyMonster]

Basically irrelevant to the point I made about LeBron. Yeah, Rajon had a great post season. Missing Garnett and having multiple overtime games will indeed boost your stats. Nevertheless, LeBron and Rondo's numbers were basically the same across the board (except for points where LeBron doubled Rondo 35 to 17).

You know, I had actually forgotten about that. Just remembered that he damn near averaged one, and thought he deserved a shout out.



Generally speaking, LeBron has the better shot at a triple-double every time he steps on the floor because he's the better player and he has to do way too much for the Cavs to be successful.

Yeah, if I were a betting man, I'd bet on LeBron. But keeping in mind Rondo, after this years playoffs, and Kidd out of sheer momentum/history as well.

[mountainballer]

his points are shit


yeah, THAT's a well reasoned argument.



its obviously backfired because people think hes a fucking dickfaced moron, because thats what he is.


well, maybe not all people. I think he is one of the better analysts out there (and this absolutely doesn't mean I agree on everything he writes). exactly the opposite of Hollinger.
(who may very well post the same list as his "most underrated" players list, just because most of this guys are stat stuffers)

[mystargtr34]

I guess Kandi is no longer in the league. He definitely belongs on the list.....Kwame Brown too.

Kandiman stopped being over rated about 2 years in, everyone knew he pretty much sucked after that. It took Kwame a little longer.

[Culburn369]

I don't lockstep on Brown...at a decent price I'd take him back. He's a f'in tree in the defensive paint.

[Muser]

I don't lockstep on Brown...at a decent price I'd take him back. He's a f'in tree in the defensive paint.


Him and Luke make a badass defense.

[JustBlaze]

Chris Andersen

Yes, he can run, jump and dash to the ball from the weak side to dramatically block shots. And his masquerading as a tall, tattooed fowl is amusing if juvenile. But he can't shoot a lick and, most importantly, is incapable of adequately defending virtually any opponent on a man-to-man basis. What Andersen does is surely crowd-pleasing and can occasionally impact the outcome of a game, but it's mostly phony defense.Phony defense my ass bitch. Lets see that old fart go up against Bird, he'll lock his pruney ass up and swat anything he throws at him.

[redzero]

Rosen must be a Julius Hodge fan.

[Gino]

1) Jason Kidd

2) Shawn Marion

And Im seriously not trying to piss off the Mavs fans. This is my REAL opinion.

[The TroutBum]

Haha, Chris Paul. What a butt fuck.

[ffadicted]

I agree with everyone of those but Dirk

[Mr Bones]

Vince Carter is the most underrated superstar the NBA has. He is EASILY, EASILY the most skilled player I've ever seen. That includes Jordan. Is his career even comparable to Jordan's? Absolutely not. Is he more skilled? In my opinion, yes. There's nothing Vince Carter cannot do on the basketball floor. Jordan didn't have range. Carter can shoot a better percentage taking 30 foot 3's than Jordan could shooting 25 footers. And 5 feet, at that deep, is a big, big difference. Let's also remember Jordan had ELITE players and role players around him. Anyway, the main point is that Carter can do everything that Jordan can do except he has unlimited range on his jumper.

If you truly believe this, doesn't that say an awful lot about Carter's drive to succeed? He won't go down as one of the greatest players ever, despite his talent, and he hasn't had extraordinary success like most of the other elite players of this era. I think it's a pretty damning statement to say the single most skilled player in the history of basketball has never been an all-nba first teamer, a member of the all-defensive team, an mvp, or a champion. Wouldn't that amount to an incredible waste of talent?

[Allanon]

Chris Bosh is a cool dude but over-rated due to his very poor defense.

Bynum's not on the list because he was an awesome player for $3 million. Of all the Centers in the NBA, he was the best value dollar for dollar. 14 points and 8 rebounds, 2 blocks and 50%+ shooting <30 minutes is pretty damn good.

There's no over-rating when you say Bynum will probably be the best Center in the West next season.

[Goran Dragic]

There's no over-rating when you say Bynum will probably be the best Center in the West next season.


yeah and I'll be the best PG in the West as well.

[Allanon]

yeah and I'll be the best PG in the West as well.

Who is a better Center than Bynum in the West?

How can anybody say that Bynum's overrated when he was the most under-paid quality Center in the NBA last year? Dwight Howard is the best Center in the NBA and it cost $500,000 more to put up 1 point. It cost almost $1 million more for Shaq to put up a point. :lol


Andrew Bynum, LAL 14.3 ppg - $3 million - $209,000 cost per point
Andrea Bargnani , TOR 15.47 - $6 million - $387K per point
Al Jefferson , MIN 23.1 - $12 million -$521K per point
Mehmet Okur , UTA 17.0 - $9 million - $529K per point
Nene Hilario , DEN 14.6 - $10 million - $584K per point
Dwight Howard , ORL 20.6 - $15 million - $728K per point
Emeka Okufor, CHA 13.2 - $10 million - $757K per point
Ming Yao , HOU 19.7 - $16 million - $812K per point
Shaquille O'Neal , PHX 17.8 - $20 million $1.12Million per point
Jermaine O'Neal , MIA-TOR 13.3 - $23 million - $1.7 Million per point


9efsJwJxYEk

[Allanon]

I agree that Kobe is a way better competitor than Vince on most nights, but they're not making the playoffs with that roster. No way. One of the big reasons Harris had a breakout season was that Carter took a back seat to him offensively and allowed him to flourish. I don't think you could say Kobe would do the same for him.

If Kobe can get to the West Playoffs with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Luke Walton as Starters, he would have made the Playoffs with Devin Harris, Yi and Brook Lopez in the weaker East.

Devin Harris > Smush Parker
Yi Jianlian> Luke Walton
Brook Lopez > Kwame Brown

[ambchang]

Bynum is the best bargain center in the league is as accurate as saying Bargnani is a better value than Dwight Howard.

[Allanon]

Bynum is the best bargain center in the league is as accurate as saying Bargnani is a better value than Dwight Howard.

Bynum's $209K per point don't lie. Nobody was even close in bang for the buck.

[Findog]

Who is a better Center than Bynum in the West?



Biedrins
Nene
Yao (when healthy)
Krstic
Al Jefferson
I'd say Pryzbilla, but let's be generous to your argument and say he's not better
Marc Gasol
Kaman (when healthy)
Okafor
Okur

Seriously, were you high when you typed that?

[Spurs_210]

IMO Dirk is underrated not sure why he made the list.

[Allanon]

Biedrins
Nene
Yao (when healthy)
Krstic
Al Jefferson
I'd say Pryzbilla, but let's be generous to your argument and say he's not better
Marc Gasol
Kaman (when healthy)
Okafor
Okur

Seriously, were you high when you typed that?

Only Al Jefferson is arguable on being better than Bynum. But then when you see Bynum destroy Big Al, then see his terrible point differential because Al plays no defense.
Learn to read, Yao isn't healthy or else he'd be better. We all know Yao's not playing next year, thus he's out of the picture.
Nene? Did you not see the 4 piont, 6 point and 8 point games Nene had against Bynum? Nene is quite over-rated.
Kristic? 10 ppg, 6 rebounds. Far below Bynum
Mark Gasol? See stats
Kaman? See stats and see how Bynum destroys Kaman every time they meet.
Okafor has worse stats than Bynum even with more minutes
Okur is great if you like soft 3 point shooting Big men that play no defense. Sounds like your style Mavfan.


Serioursly, when will you ever post anything that doesn't come out of your ass?

[Findog]

Only Al Jefferson is arguable on being better than Bynum. But then when you see Bynum destroy Big Al, then see his terrible point differential because Al plays no defense.
Learn to read, Yao isn't healthy or else he'd be better. We all know Yao's not playing next year, thus he's out of the picture.
Nene? Did you not see the 4 piont, 6 point and 8 point games Nene had against Bynum? Nene is quite over-rated.
Kristic? 10 ppg, 6 rebounds. Far below Bynum
Mark Gasol? See stats
Kaman? See stats and see how Bynum destroys Kaman every time they meet.
Okafor has worse stats than Bynum even with more minutes
Okur is great if you like soft 3 point shooting Big men that play no defense. Sounds like your style Mavfan.


Serioursly, when will you ever post anything that doesn't come out of your ass?

krstic, kamen, okafor, okur and gasol were jokes, but every other guy on that list is better than Bynum. Biedrins, Jefferson and Nene are easily better than Bynum.

Bynum was freaking awesome in the playoffs, btw. You guys couldn't have done it without him. :tu

[dickface]

Serioursly, when will you ever post anything that doesn't come out of your ass?

LOL of all people, it's you typing this? Mr. "75 win ecstasy" and "I joined before the Gasol trade"?

[dickface]

Bynum was freaking awesome in the playoffs, btw. You guys couldn't have done it without him. :tu

Phil is probably happy that he at least played at a Will Perdue level.

[Findog]

LOL of all people, it's you typing this? Mr. "75 win ecstasy" and "I joined before the Gasol trade"?

And Derrick Rose is not a clutch leader.

[dickface]

And Derrick Rose is not a clutch leader.

And "Anthony Randolph will never improve"

[Findog]

And "Anthony Randolph will never improve"

Randolph is one of those "he is what he is" kind of players at this stage in his career. He had 82 whole games to demonstrate growth and he couldn't do it.

[Allanon]

LOL of all people, it's you typing this? Mr. "75 win ecstasy" and "I joined before the Gasol trade"?

Good to see you mono. I'm actually calling "83 win ecstasy" this year. Let's not forget my other gems from last year



Lakers would win the West by a large margin.
Lakers would be champs
Bynum would only be a Top 3 Center in the West by the end of the year

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Allanon, I agree Bynum might be the best center in the west right now.

And Bynum being overrated has nothing to do with his salary, he's overrated because he's deemed the next great Laker center when he's only had small glimpses to give people that idea.

I personally like Bynum. From what I've heard he's a hard worker, and if I were him I'd chill at the playboy mansion. I just think he's a tad overrated and he's immature, but he'll grow out of that.

[Allanon]

And "Anthony Randolph will never improve"

Randolph was role player and still is a role player, let me know when he becomes a star player mono.

[Findog]

Good to see you mono. I'm actually calling "83 win ecstasy" this year. Let's not forget my other gems from last year

:tu

I'm serious on the props here. You've learned to take a joke.

Baby steps.

[Findog]

Randolph was role player and still is a role player, let me know when he becomes a star player mono.

Do you think he's reached his ceiling as a player?

[Allanon]

Allanon, I agree Bynum might be the best center in the west right now.

And Bynum being overrated has nothing to do with his salary, he's overrated because he's deemed the next great Laker center when he's only had small glimpses to give people that idea.

I personally like Bynum. From what I've heard he's a hard worker, and if I were him I'd chill at the playboy mansion. I just think he's a tad overrated and he's immature, but he'll grow out of that.

A very reasonable post in the middle ground.

He's over-rated when compared to other great Laker Centers.

[Allanon]

Do you think he's reached his ceiling as a player?

I think he's a role player and will stay a role player. I clarified that in the original thread. I don't think he's becoming a star player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Randolph was role player and still is a role player, let me know when he becomes a star player mono.


Look at his pre all star break and post ASB numbers and tell me he didn't improve.

[Findog]

I think he's a role player and will stay a role player. I clarified that in the original thread. I don't think he's becoming a star player.

Okay. Glad we settled that.

[dickface]

Randolph was role player and still is a role player, let me know when he becomes a star player mono.

lol are you gonna hide behind that next year when Randolph is averaging close to a double-double? technically, Pau Gasol is a "role player". So what is your statistical ceiling for Anthony Randolph since according to you he's already peaked?

[Findog]

Randolph may never develop into what he could be bc of the dysfunctional situation in Golden State, but he's an All Star talent.

[Allanon]

Look at his pre all star break and post ASB numbers and tell me he didn't improve.

He's improved alright, but he's still a role player. I know lots of you think he's a star player, but I don't think he has what it takes to become a star.

[Allanon]

:tu

I'm serious on the props here. You've learned to take a joke.

Baby steps.

In all seriousness, you do usually have good posts :lol

[dickface]

I want to know Allanon's definition of role player. He could easily hide behind "role player" since technically, outside of about 10 players in the league, everyone else is a "role player".

[Findog]

He's improved alright, but he's still a role player. I know lots of you think he's a star player, but I don't think he has what it takes to become a star.

He was a rookie last year. Nobody here says he deserved to make an All Star team or make one of the All-NBA teams. And he may or may not put it all together, but his talent is undeniable.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Randolph may never develop into what he could be bc of the dysfunctional situation in Golden State, but he's an All Star talent.


Agreed. Big men can never fully develop under Mike D or Fatass Nelson.

[Findog]

I want to know Allanon's definition of role player. He could easily hide behind "role player" since technically, outside of about 10 players in the league, everyone else is a "role player".

Anthony Randolph is a role player.

[Allanon]

lol are you gonna hide behind that next year when Randolph is averaging close to a double-double? technically, Pau Gasol is a "role player". So what is your statistical ceiling for Anthony Randolph since according to you he's already peaked?

Anthony Randolph's ceiling is a 15 and 10 guy average. He won't be the next Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, Keven Durant, etc.

But hey, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I like his game and wouldn't mind if he proves me wrong.

[Findog]

Agreed. Big men can never fully develop under Mike D or Fatass Nelson.

Nelson is a fine coach when he wants to be. He's developed Biedrins just fine. For whatever reason he had a problem with AR last year.

[Findog]

Anthony Randolph's ceiling is a 15 and 10 guy average. He won't be the next Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, Keven Durant, etc.

But hey, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. I like his game.

A double-double is not a role player.

[dickface]

Anthony Randolph's ceiling is a 15 and 10 guy average.

Okay fair enough. I see him at his best as a 22/10 guy.

[Allanon]

A double-double is not a role player.

It depends on whether it's a low double-double or a high double double. If it's 10 and 10, that's a role player. If it's 20-10, that's a star.

[Allanon]

Okay fair enough. I see him at his best as a 22/10 guy.

Wow. Heck, if he makes 17/10 or close to it, I'll admit I'm wrong and you can add that to "75 win ecstasy".

[dickface]

For whatever reason he had a problem with AR last year.

He has an odd relationship with rookies. He had these problems with Dirk, Josh, Devin, etc.....but inexplicably he gives free reign to guys like Marquis, Morrow, & Najera.

I think it's tied to his expectations for a player. If he has high expecations and they disappoint him, he gives them a very short leash in their rookie year. Meanwhile, if he has low expectations and they exceed them, he gives them the keys to the mint.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nelson is a fine coach when he wants to be. He's developed Biedrins just fine. For whatever reason he had a problem with AR last year.

Biedrins' ceiling is a defensive big man who rebounds a lot and gets easy buckets.

Anthony Randolph is gonna have problems developing individual offensive ability with Nelson as coach.

[Findog]

It depends on whether it's a low double-double or a high double double. If it's 10 and 10, that's a role player. If it's 20-10, that's a star.

Well, Biedrins put up 12/11 last year, but I wouldn't consider him a role player. Rodman on the Pistons was a role player, but on the Bulls he was a pivotal part of the core...even though his stats on the Bulls scream role player. Stats are not everything in my book. Zach Randolph is the only 20/10 guy I can think of who I think makes his teams much, much worse than if they benched him for a mediocre role player.

[Findog]

Biedrins' ceiling is a defensive big man who rebounds a lot and gets easy buckets.

Anthony Randolph is gonna have problems developing individual offensive ability with Nelson as coach.

Actually, I disagree quite a bit with this. If there's one thing Nellie is great at, it's bringing out somebody's inner scorer. Marquis Daniels looked like freaking Derrick Rose as a rookie under Nellie, but he's been the definition of journeyman role player ever since.

[dickface]

Randolph is a good midrange shooter and a great ball handler, I think offensively Nellie will get the best out of him. Defensively, I can see him turning into Birdman or Tyrus Thomas, which kinda sucks.

[Allanon]

Well, Biedrins put up 12/11 last year, but I wouldn't consider him a role player. Rodman on the Pistons was a role player, but on the Bulls he was a pivotal part of the core...even though his stats on the Bulls scream role player. Stats are not everything in my book. Zach Randolph is the only 20/10 guy I can think of who I think makes his teams much, much worse than if they benched him for a mediocre role player.

Biedrins is an interesting player. I don't know what to make of him...is he good or just another role player? Maybe I'll know next year. He's solid no doubt but nothing spectacular.

Zach Randolph, Amare Stoudemire, Boozer, David West are all guys that make their teams worse even though they have great stats.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well, Biedrins put up 12/11 last year, but I wouldn't consider him a role player.


Really? IMO he's a role player.

[dickface]

IMO Biedrins is more than a role player for Golden State, but outside of Nellie's system he would suck like nothing you've ever seen before. I seriously think if he was on just about any other team, he'd be a 5/6 guy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Actually, I disagree quite a bit with this. If there's one thing Nellie is great at, it's bringing out somebody's inner scorer. Marquis Daniels looked like freaking Derrick Rose as a rookie under Nellie, but he's been the definition of journeyman role player ever since.

I said that cause Randolph is a big man. He's not gonna develop any back to the basket game with Nellie as coach.

[Findog]

Really? IMO he's a role player.

Up until before last year I would've said he was a role player. He's only 23. I don't know that he'll ever make an All-Star team, but I think his ceiling is to be one of those guys on the cusp of being an All Star. Not that PER is everything, but his was 21 last year. He's a two-way center. Those guys are rare.

[Findog]

Biedrins is an interesting player. I don't know what to make of him...is he good or just another role player? Maybe I'll know next year. He's solid no doubt but nothing spectacular.

He's only 23 and he's steadily improved. A double-double and good defender.



Zach Randolph, Amare Stoudemire, Boozer, David West are all guys that make their teams worse even though they have great stats.


I think Randolph is the only one of those guys that make their teams actively worse. In the case of Amare, Boozer and West, I think their teams give them too large a role. For instance, at this stage of his career, I think Nash would make a bad-ass 6th man, or somebody to only start and run the point for 28-30 minutes a night. But to rely on him to be a 34 minutes per game starter is not ideal.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My personal view, and I guess this isn't a traditional view, is that all players who can't create their own shot are "role players".

[Findog]

My personal view, and I guess this isn't a traditional view, is that all players who can't create their own shot are "role players".

That's a good rule of thumb, but Dennis Rodman with the Bulls was not a role player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's a good rule of thumb, but Dennis Rodman with the Bulls was not a role player.


My view is he was, he had a certain limit to the role he played, and he shouldn't step outside of it.

So, IMO, Amare Stoudemire is a role player that's a product of a system that made role players (Marion and Amare) look like stars by inflating their stats.

[exstatic]

the only question I have is.....

How the fuck is Andrew Bynum NOT on this list???....

Charlie Rosen's favorite sport is Laker fellatio. You'll never see any Laker treated harshly in his column.

[Findog]

My view is he was, he had a certain limit to the role he played, and he shouldn't step outside of it.

I think he was so dominant at what he did (defense, rebounding), that it overwhelmed what he didn't do (score).


So, IMO, Amare Stoudemire is a role player that's a product of a system that made role players (Marion and Amare) look like stars by inflating their stats.

Amare is an All Star being thrust into the role of franchise player, which he isn't. Amare's #s were inflated playing with Nash in SSOL, but he's hardly helpless without those two things.

[cobbler]

That's a good rule of thumb, but Dennis Rodman with the Bulls was not a role player.

I have always considered Rodman to be the ultimate role player.

[Findog]

I have always considered Rodman to be the ultimate role player.

I just think his contributions to that second Bulls run of titles constitute more than that of a role player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Amare is an All Star being thrust into the role of franchise player, which he isn't. Amare's #s were inflated playing with Nash in SSOL, but he's hardly helpless without those two things.

I don't think Amare is an all star w/o SSOL and Nash. Only reason he made it last year was fan voting. Like I said, he and Marion played roles where pretty much any big man will have inflated stats.

This topic bothers me cause Amare's 2nd season his individual game was making major strides, then between D'antoni's system where everyone played off Nash and his knee injury, Amare lost any individual game he developed and became a one dimensional pick and roll scorer.

That's why I think Nelson is gonna hurt Randolph since he's just like D'antoni but arguably more stubborn.

[timtonymanurich]

I love how there's not ONE mention of a Spurs player on this list!! Charlie knows his basketball!!

[Tully365]

I just think his contributions to that second Bulls run of titles constitute more than that of a role player.

I have to agree with you on this. Rodman was the best rebounder in basketball, so in a sense that was his main role. But he was also an all around defender, and IMO one of the best outlet passers too, a skill that I think is generally underappreciated. Lots of younger players like to grab a rebound and cradle it like a trophy, which gives the other team time to get back on D, but Rodman was better than anyone at unloading his rebounds with a quick upcourt pass.