Organic Food

[InRareForm]

Just watched Penn and Teller and they showed that the organic business is equivalent of a big religion where people actually believe they are getting a healthier, better for the environment, better tasting product.

thoughts>?

[ChumpDumper]

They're probably right for the most part. For some reason organic milk keeps for several weeks longer than nonorganic, though. I wonder why. I do sometimes worry about the cumulative effects of pesticides and some fertilizers in food, but I haven't seen anything really conclusive to convert me fully.

[EricB]

Watch their hybrid show.

Now THAT was a good one :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

For the most part organic meat, milk, and produce is a huge scam. I'm not saying that locally grown farmers market produce isn't better than what you can buy at the grocery but that's more a function of them being able to grow varieties of produce that don't pack/ship well. A good example is Poteet strawberries vs. California strawberries...Poteet strawberries have a much higher natural sugar content than California Strawberries and taste MUCH better, but because they have such a high sugar content they can't be packed/shipped to distant markets without spoiling...

[ChumpDumper]

Watch their hybrid show.

Now THAT was a good one :lolI like the bottled water one where they sold water at a fancy restaurant that came from a hose out back.

[InRareForm]

organic fruit tastes better

in the show they did a taste test and had hippie and organic enthusiasts always picking the non-organic food as the better tasting one.

[CosmicCowboy]

Now grass fed beef vs. corn fed beef is one where there is a definite difference in taste, but I'm not saying one is "healthier" than another...We used to raise/slaughter grass fed steers for our consumption before we sold the big ranch and they definitely cook differently and taste differently than the beef you buy in the store.

[InRareForm]

here is a summary of the show (kind of a spoiler of the show, but not everyone gets showtime on tv)

- The organic stuff still uses pesticides, they just use "natural" pesticides. The synthetic pesticides (non-organic) are actually better for you, since they have improved so much over the years

- Most organic stuff comes from huge farms or from overseas (China) (china is reported to be 20% of the organic US business) not from mom-and-pop farms

- Organic food doesn't have any more nutrients than non-organic food

- More land is needed for organic farming, thus making the argument it is more eco-friendly false. It would be human food supply diminishing when it comes to keeping the food supply up

[cornbread]

in the show they did a taste test and had hippie and organic enthusiasts always picking the non-organic food as the better tasting one.

P&T love owning hippies. The best was when they had hundreds of hippies sign a petition to ban water by refering to it as "dihydrogen monoxide".

[boutons_deux]

There was a study last week in UK that said organic food wasn't significantly more nutritious than chemically treated food.

The author said his study did not look at the content or effect of chemicals in non-organic food.

"After eating contaminated food, people can develop anything from a short, mild illness, often mistakenly referred to as "food poisoning," to life-threatening disease. CDC estimates that 76 million Americans get sick, more than 300,000 are hospitalized, and 5,000 people die from foodborne illnesses each year."

OBL killed how many Americans ONCE? vs How many Americans are killed by corporate food EVERY YEAR?

A colleague brought loaf of bread to work several weeks ago, has been sitting on top of the office refrigerator. We check it every week for any sign of mold. Nothing.

"If it doesn't rot (if the bugs and fungus don't like it), don't eat it" :lol

[Wild Cobra]

I'm not so convinced that something has to be 100% organic, but rather not unnaturally processed. The zucchini I had today out of my garden were delightful, and the tomatoes were absolutely awesome compared to store bought. The biggest thing in my opinion is what they do for shipment and storage rather than the specifics of how something is grown. Bananas for example are picked green, then gassed. The gas suspends the natural ripening. Just before they send them to the stores, they are gasses again with another chemical to allow ripening. Then they ripen too fast and spoil easily. Not only do bananas marked organic taste better, but they ripen far slower. I heard they do the same with tomatoes, picking them green, then gas them when they want them to ripen. I'm less sure of this as fact. All I know is anything I buy from the farmers market tastes superior, even though it may not look as nice.

I've also heard about radiating fruits and vegetables to kill potentially dangerous pathogens. If this is true, I don't know. Maybe someone here does. Anyway, I hear it kills the natural enzymes.

One way that stay healthy is by with supplements. I don't take vitamins, but I take amino acid mixes and enzyme mixes. Except for a few pound of fat gain over the last 10 years, I still fell as healthy as I did 30 years ago.

[boutons_deux]

Irradiation doesn't kill just the pathogens, but also lots of nutrients, the same way microwaving destroys nutrients (if there are any nutrients left in microwave-able food-like substances).

Almond growers won to get their irradiated(aka, cooked) almonds labelled as "raw". They couldn't keep their almonds from getting contaminated with pathogens (do they pick up these pathogens on the trees and in the nuts, or later?), so they kill the pathogens and much of the good stuff in
"raw" almonds.

You can't get healthy taking supplements. They are meant to "supplement", not replace.

In the health care war, prevention for cost savings gets very little traction, although 100s of $Bs are wasted every year (vs. just $100B/year reform is supposed to cost) treating life-style, preventable, self-inflicted, corporate-inflicted diseases.

But, we must above all remain "free" to make ourselves irresponsibly sick, and let everybody else pick up the bill.

[baseline bum]

Tomatoes are one thing you absolutely have to either grow yourself or buy from farmer's markets, as the difference in taste is night and day when they're allowed to ripen on the vine. Supermarket tomatoes may be big, but they have no flavor whatsoever. I haven't noticed too much of a difference for other fruits and vegetables though.

[CosmicCowboy]

Irradiation doesn't kill just the pathogens, but also lots of nutrients, the same way microwaving destroys nutrients (if there are any nutrients left in microwave-able food-like substances).

Almond growers won to get their irradiated(aka, cooked) almonds labelled as "raw". They couldn't keep their almonds from getting contaminated with pathogens (do they pick up these pathogens on the trees and in the nuts, or later?), so they kill the pathogens and much of the good stuff in
"raw" almonds.

You can't get healthy taking supplements. They are meant to "supplement", not replace.

In the health care war, prevention for cost savings gets very little traction, although 100s of $Bs are wasted every year (vs. just $100B/year reform is supposed to cost) treating life-style, preventable, self-inflicted, corporate-inflicted diseases.

But, we must above all remain "free" to make ourselves irresponsibly sick, and let everybody else pick up the bill.

Funny how 100 years ago when everyone ate organic the average life expectancy was 50 years. Keep drinking that organic kool-aid.

I am NOT saying that everything is hunky dory and I personally have issues with complex engineered carbohydrates (white sugar, corn sugars etc.) but without corporate agriculture a lot of city people would starve.

[dimsah]

I heard they do the same with tomatoes, picking them green, then gas them when they want them to ripen. I'm less sure of this as fact. All I know is anything I buy from the farmers market tastes superior, even though it may not look as nice.


This is true. Tomatoes wouldn't last through the shipping phase if they were allowed to ripen on the vine so they do pick them green and gas them with ethylene. The gassing doesn't really speed up the ripening process, it just turns the tomatoes red.

You can pick a green tomato that tastes good but it has to be just before it ripens to the red color. Most store bought tomatoes are picked much too early in the green phase.

[boutons_deux]

"Funny how 100 years ago when everyone ate organic the average life expectancy was 50 years"

Funny how eternally wrong you wrongies are, eg, (petro)chemical agriculture causes people to live longer?

Do you really think food corps give a fuck about who starves?

Food corps are converting corn and soy into fuel so people won't starve?

Monsanto is buying up and legally protecting as many seeds as they can to keep people from starving?

Monsanto is pushing GM sterile seeds to keep people from starving? (or to sell more Round Up)

[Wild Cobra]

Funny how 100 years ago when everyone ate organic the average life expectancy was 50 years. Keep drinking that organic kool-aid.
Sorry, I disagree with that as being a factoid strong enough to use. There are too many other factors as to why life expectancy changes. I usually consider you to have some well thought remarks. In this case, you look like a retard.

[eyeh8u]

as long as it doesn't say made in china its ok

[tlongII]

LOL @ organic

[TDMVPDPOY]

i watch a documentary a few weeks ago about GM food in america....they say most of the stuff in america is gm anyway...even if the final product isnt GM, but the input products like pesticides and chemicals treating/fertilizing the land could be GM related

doesnt make a difference anyway if you cant tell what it is and shit it does to you, as long your hunger is fullfilled that is all it matters right?

[Trainwreck2100]

For the most part organic meat, milk, and produce is a huge scam.


i'll take sun harvest/central market meat over heb or wal mart meat any day of the week

[CosmicCowboy]

Sorry, I disagree with that as being a factoid strong enough to use. There are too many other factors as to why life expectancy changes. I usually consider you to have some well thought remarks. In this case, you look like a retard.

Actually, the easy availability of food HAS made it easier to make dramatic scientific advances. 200 years ago the average persons entire existence was focused on acquiring and storing food for survival. Dawn to dark, whether milking cows, plowing with a mule, planting and canning and storing vegetables and fruits, potatoes, hunting for game or raising chickens and cows for slaughter etc. Acquiring and storing food was THE primary focus.

The availability/scarcity of food had massive impact on societies...We had a huge influx of Irish in the US in the 1800's just because of a fungus that caused their potato crops to fail and entire classes of society to either leave or starve.

Scraping out a subsistence living every day didn't leave a lot of time for pondering advanced scientific and medical theories.

[boutons_deux]

As is always the case with science, there are competing viewpoints

=============

Medical News Today

Is Organic Food Really No Better Than Other Foods?

02 Aug 2009

The Food Standards Agency (FSA), UK, issued a report last week claiming that there is no evidence of any significant benefits to human health from consuming organic foods. It is surprising that such a claim could be made from a public health agency after what could best be described as rather limited research - according to much of the British press.
Some facts about the study:

* It did not include papers that were not written in English - estimated to be about half of all good quality studies.

* It did not include research from the European Union published in April, 2009.

* It ignored a study by scientists at Rhode Island Hospital which found a substantial link between increased levels of nitrates in our environment and food, with increased deaths from diseases, including Alzheimer's, diabetes mellitus and Parkinson's. The study was published in the peer-reviewed Journal of Alzheimer's Disease (Volume 17:3 July 2009). Fair enough, this was published after the FSA had concluded their research. However, everyone knew this study was ongoing. Why not wait a little bit longer until it was completed?

* It did not use the top British centers of excellence in this field to carry out the study. Scientists at the Nafferton Ecological Farming Group at Newcastle University, in one of many studies, found that grazing cows on organic farms in the UK produce milk which contains significantly higher beneficial fatty acids, antioxidants and vitamins than their conventional 'high input' counterparts. A nationwide British daily newspaper, The Daily Mail, could not understand why the FSA used the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine to carry out the study - a center of excellence, but not renowned as a leading center in this field - instead of, for example Newcastle University.

Why do people choose organic?

Putting the health issue to one side, there are many other reasons people wish to buy organic - two of them are listed below:

* The environment

o The effect on life forms within the soil - if you look at video footage of tractors ploughing fields forty years ago you will notice there used to be a sizeable number of birds gobbling up worms and bugs. Today there are very few of them, and sometimes none at all.

o There are significantly more birds, butterflies, beetles, bats and wild flowers on organic farms than conventional farms.

o Protection of endangered species - intensive farming is known to have a negative impact on the future of many endangered species. "A staggering 5 million skylarks are estimated to have vanished in the past 30 years as a result of agricultural intensification," (Speech given by Sir John Krebs, Chair of the Food Standards Agency at Queen's University, Belfast, on 5 November 2003).

o Coastal waters - there is much less run-off of nutrients from organic farms, compared to other farms, which cause algae blooms in coastal waters.

o Organic farming encourages practices which are more in line with measures to combat climate change. An example is the use of solar powered fertility through crops like red clover that fix nitrogen into the soil for subsequent crops.

* Animal welfare (farm animals)

As organically farmed animals are encouraged to pursue natural behavior, which usually includes plenty of space, more natural feeding habits, as well as receiving fewer drugs and antibiotics, their quality of life is generally better compared to animals in other farms. In the vast majority of cases, organic farms with livestock have free-range animals. In every organic poultry farm in the UK, birds are kept in smaller flocks and spend much more of their time roaming outside on fresh grass - they also have considerably more indoor space, compared to non-organic poultry farms.

What about unknown long-term complications?

Can we really say organic is not better for health if we do not have enough long term evidence?

Scientists at Emory University, the University of Washington, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), found that by substituting elementary school-age children's foods with just organic products, the concentration of the organophosphorus pesticides found in their bodies decreased substantially to non-detectable levels until the conventional diets were re-introduced.

The researchers were specifically measuring the exposure of two organophosphorus pesticides - malathion and chlorpyrifos. Research team leader, Dr. Lu said "During the days when children consumed organic diets, most of their urine samples contained zero concentration for the malathion metabolite. However, once the children returned to their conventional diets, the average malathion metabolite concentration increased to 1.6 parts per billion with a concentration range from 5 to 263 parts per billion."

An elementary school child will most likely live another 70, 80 or even 90 years. We cannot and should not ignore potential long-term complications.

Written by Christian Nordqvist

Article URL: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/159551.php

[David Bowie]

I feel like there's something wrong with any kind of food produced in the United States in general. My family moved here from Russia about 15 years ago. We were not poor there, and were never lacking food. Within months of arriving to the United States, everyone in my family gained a good amount of weight. I am normal (healthy) wight for my height. However, I went to study abroad to Europe (Netherlands) for 4.5 months. I was bored there due to lack of internet and smoked a lot of pot. So, naturally, I ate all the time. I came back to the U.S 20 pounds thinner then when I left. Other people who I know who are from Europe say that they loose weight when they go back to Europe, even if they don't eat less food. Therefore, I just think that U.S. food producers put something into the food to makes it unhealthy.

[Wild Cobra]

I feel like there's something wrong with any kind of food produced in the United States in general. My family moved here from Russia about 15 years ago. We were not poor there, and were never lacking food. Within months of arriving to the United States, everyone in my family gained a good amount of weight. I am normal (healthy) wight for my height. However, I went to study abroad to Europe (Netherlands) for 4.5 months. I was bored there due to lack of internet and smoked a lot of pot. So, naturally, I ate all the time. I came back to the U.S 20 pounds thinner then when I left. Other people who I know who are from Europe say that they loose weight when they go back to Europe, even if they don't eat less food. Therefore, I just think that U.S. food producers put something into the food to makes it unhealthy.It's not a matter of organics, but rather a matter of how food is processed here. The natural good things in food are killed. Hard to find food here that still has enzymes.

[boutons_deux]

Non-organic, industrialized production and processing of plants and animals and synthetic, highly processed food-like substances are all of the same philosophy.

People become diseased eating industrial shit while the land and waterways are stressed and poisoned.

The system is really unsustainable.

[JudynTX]

I always wondered about this......

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I feel like there's something wrong with any kind of food produced in the United States in general. My family moved here from Russia about 15 years ago. We were not poor there, and were never lacking food. Within months of arriving to the United States, everyone in my family gained a good amount of weight. I am normal (healthy) wight for my height. However, I went to study abroad to Europe (Netherlands) for 4.5 months. I was bored there due to lack of internet and smoked a lot of pot. So, naturally, I ate all the time. I came back to the U.S 20 pounds thinner then when I left. Other people who I know who are from Europe say that they loose weight when they go back to Europe, even if they don't eat less food. Therefore, I just think that U.S. food producers put something into the food to makes it unhealthy.
i'd say a big culprit is high fructose corn syrup. that crap is in everything.

[Wild Cobra]

i'd say a big culprit is high fructose corn syrup. that crap is in everything.
True or not, I stay away from that shit. I rarely have a soda, and that's probably the only time I have it in any notable quantity.

I use real maple syrup on my pancakes. Nothing sweetened with that shit.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

True or not, I stay away from that shit. I rarely have a soda, and that's probably the only time I have it in any notable quantity.

I use real maple syrup on my pancakes. Nothing sweetened with that shit.
you'd be surprised in what it's put in.

[SonOfAGun]

Good show.

I'd love to hang out with Penn. (no homo)

[PuttPutt]

As a person in the produce industry (I buy organic & conventional), I can say that you all have good points. When it comes to organic apples/pears, there's really only one thing different, the pesticides. Not to say they don't have or get traces of pesticides from other nearby orchards, but they monitor that well. They (conventional & organic) all run across the same packing lines, but they are cleaned well before the organic is run across.
Most of the apples in the world today come from various different root stock & many of the varieties are the same that are conventional & organic. A farmer that has orchards & wants to grow organically has to wait 3 years for it to be certified. So, he has to use organic practices for 3 years. Although, any farmer can do this & many have. The farmer that has had his orchard for 10 or so years that has been using pesticides & he decides he wants to be an organic farmer. He quits using the conventional pesticide & buys the approved organic pesticide & uses it for 3 years. Now his orchard is organic. There are some farmers that bypass this & say their product is organic (this happens at farmers markets more than not) & it's not. They duped you into thinking it's organic. Make sure to ask how long they've been certified.

Most apples/pears are picked all at the same time depending on varieties. Most are picked August through October. You eat this fruit till the next harvest. So, the later in the season it gets, the less flavor. Although, most varieties are getting stored better so that they have longer lasting flavor.

I could go on & on, but it's already too long.

[Wild Cobra]

you'd be surprised in what it's put in.No I wouldn't. Small amounts aren't going to hurt anyone. It's in just about everything. Please re-read my words. I said "notable quantity."

[bugoy]

organic is good is used consistently, i used to do finance work for whole foods, i loved the discount

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think it's all a scam. The soccer moms are stupid enough to pay 4x as much for food because the label says organic.


PS - organic apples suck.

[marini martini]

1/2 tsp. bleach to 2 gallon water. Soak for an hour, rinse & save $$$!!!:toast

[sabar]

Who cares. Assuming there is a huge difference in the foods, then you die at 78 instead of 82. Same thing. This might be important to society if 12 year olds drinking soda were dropping dead left and right. The only problem with American society is that we take in more calories than we burn.

[baseline bum]

Who cares. Assuming there is a huge difference in the foods, then you die at 78 instead of 82. Same thing. This might be important to society if 12 year olds drinking soda were dropping dead left and right. The only problem with American society is that we take in more calories than we burn.

WTF? You think 4 years is meaningless?

[angelbelow]

Health and better taste are very arguable. IMO organic taste worst. In terms of health, I read a few articles that show that there is no proof in organic being healthier than conventional. Additionally, organic food does indeed have pesticides in them. Theyre just "organic" pesticides. However, I would encourage the switch to organic as it is definitely better for the environment.

ps. I have a minor in Environmental Science.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i finally saw this last night and it was a great show. that cooky family was a little out there. i don't buy organic stuff because of the environment or any other hippie causes. i do it mainly for the non use of preservatives, HFCS, pesticides and all that. i guess i go for the "natural" brand. if there's something i can't easily pronounce in the ingredients, then more than likely i won't consume it. i could care less about the environment. the earth is going to do what the earth is going to do. how can man change that? i tend to buy from farmers markets directly from the farmers. it was quite an eye opening show. i'll need to do some investigating for my own now.

[angelbelow]

i finally saw this last night and it was a great show. that cooky family was a little out there. i don't buy organic stuff because of the environment or any other hippie causes. i do it mainly for the non use of preservatives, HFCS, pesticides and all that. i guess i go for the "natural" brand. if there's something i can't easily pronounce in the ingredients, then more than likely i won't consume it. i could care less about the environment. the earth is going to do what the earth is going to do. how can man change that? i tend to buy from farmers markets directly from the farmers. it was quite an eye opening show. i'll need to do some investigating for my own now.

Isn't that a bit ignorant? While it's true the earth will attempt to repair itself, humans are polluting it at a rate that the earth's repair mechanisms are essentially useless. Unless we make the effort, the earth will become worse before it becomes better.

The media doesn't do a good job in broadcasting just how bad our environment is and just how important it is to have an environmentally friendly mindset. I encourage everyone to be more environmentally friendly because at this rate it's getting a lot worse. Look into the topic too, I understand that it will take a bit of work to look up and read but I think its valuable information.

For those who are selfish and think that you only live once so who gives a fuck(that used to me), think about your children or the children of your friends and family. We inevitably affect the next generation and the generations after that, so it's wise to think about them.

[baseline bum]

The best thing we could ever do for the environment is to quit trading with China. God, that place is a shithole and they don't give a damn about how they're trashing this planet.

[boutons_deux]

"something wrong with any kind of food produced in the United States in general"

Several studies, including one recently on illegal immigrants, have shown that people from other countries where disease rates are lower than USA get diseases at higher rates than in their native countries.

As non-Western countries get "marketed" into adopting Western, esp USA, diets and industrial foods (shit like all fast food and junk food), their disease rates go up (without even including US/UK tobacco criminal corporations).

Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

America the Beautiful exports its Beautiful culture and people die.

[angelbelow]

The best thing we could ever do for the environment is to quit trading with China. God, that place is a shithole and they don't give a damn about how they're trashing this planet.

Agreed, but China is too smart at this point. We can't survive without their goods.

[Goran Dragic]

The best thing we could ever do for the environment is to quit trading with China. God, that place is a shithole and they don't give a damn about how they're trashing this planet.

As if America is so much better.