50 players better than Pippen?

[LnGrrrR]

This was an idea brought up in the Kobe vs MJ thread...

Can this board name 50 players better than Pippen?

I'll start off with some easy ones:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Bill Russell
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Shaquille O' Neal
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Jerry West
9) Bob Cousy
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
11) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12) LeBron James
13) Rick Barry
14) Tim Duncan
15) Karl Malone
16) Bob Pettit
17) Julius Erving
18) George Gervin
19) David Robinson
20) Oscar Robertson
21) John Havlicek
22) Elgin Baylor
23) Charles Barkley
24) Moses Malone
25) Isiah Thomas
26) Kevin Garnett
27) John Stockton
28) Dwayne Wade

In contention:

Pete Maravich
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens
Clyde Drexler
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes
Jason Kidd
Paul Pierce
Allen Iverson

On par or not quite as good:

George Mikan
Kevin McHale
Nate Archibald
Bill Walton
Dave DeBusschere
Sam Jones
Earl Monroe
Robert Parish

28 and counting... separated into "in contention" categories and "not quite good enough"

Recent: Added Stockton due to popular demand, DWade

[Brazil]

Duncan

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

11) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[DAF86]

12- Lebron James

[robbie380]

barkley
karl malone
moses malone
dr. j

[BlackSwordsMan]

rodman

[BUMP]

rodman

kill yourself please

[DAF86]

17- Stockton

[robbie380]

isiah thomas
d wade

[Allanon]

rodman

Pippen got the Bulls to 55 wins without Jordan and Rodman.

[101A]

David Robinson
George Gervin

[DAF86]

20- Oscar Robertson

[DAF86]

23- Jason Kidd

[Allanon]

LeBron has 0 rings, D Wade has 1.

Pippen has 6, I dunno if it's too early to say those two guys are greater than Pippen.

Barkley and Malone both had 0 but they had a great body of work. LeBron and Wade are still working on theirs.

[BUMP]

23- Jason Kidd

Hell no

[hater]

are we talking about pure basketball skill?

then Pippen is defnitely not in top 50

[BlackSwordsMan]

jerry stackhouse

[BlackSwordsMan]

all of the spurs roster for this year

[BUMP]

jerry stackhouse

:lmao

[dirk4mvp]

Blair.

[Muser]

Allen Iverson (Prime)
Nash (Prime)
Drexler
Dr J
Ewing
Shaq
Robertson
Worthy

[benefactor]

It would be pretty difficult to name 50 players better than him. It seems like some people here were either too young to remember the '90s clearly or they overrate a lot of current players. I'd put Pippen over most of the players players that are considered elite now.

[Allanon]

I think this is for the 50 Greatest Players of All Time, Lngrrr, correct me if I'm wrong.

[BUMP]

Allen Iverson (Prime)
Nash (Prime)


this thread has turned into a joke now

[hater]

It would be pretty difficult to name 50 players better than him. It seems like some people here were either too young to remember the '90s clearly or they overrate a lot of current players. I'd put Pippen over most of the players players that are considered elite now.

who are those players?

[turiaf for president]

patrick ewing
david robinson
george mikan
rick barry
clyde drexler
reggie miller
elgin baylor
willis reed
kevin garnett
Dominique wilkens
jason kidd
steve nash
oscar robertson
bob pettit

[Muser]

Allen Iverson has 2 NCAA big east DPOY awards, just found it whilst looking up his stats against Pippen :lmao

[DAF86]

It would be pretty difficult to name 50 players better than him. It seems like some people here were either too young to remember the '90s clearly or they overrate a lot of current players. I'd put Pippen over most of the players players that are considered elite now.

I was a Bulls' fan during the last three peat (like 99% of the people outside the US during that time). Pippen wasn't as great as people say he was. Great defender, great athletic ability but he had a lot of flaws on his game. His shooting for example was far from great.

[MB20]

J. Havlicek

[dirk4mvp]

J. Havlicek

:lol

[hater]

Derrick Rose

[j-money24]

23- Jason Kidd

:nope

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

OK Nash and AI are two of the biggest defensive liabilities in modern NBA history, while Pippen was arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

[DAF86]

I think this is for the 50 Greatest Players of All Time, Lngrrr, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm thinking it this way: compare Pippen at his prime against any other player on his prime, who would you rather have on your team?

[MB20]

:lol


John Havlicek - Awards And Accomplishments
1958 Chosen to All-State High School Basketball Team
1961-62 Ohio State Basketball team MVP
1962 Chosen to All America and All-Big 10 teams
1962-78 First player to score 1,000 points in sixteen consecutive seasons
1964, 1966, 1968-70, 1975-76 All-NBA Second Team
1966-78 NBA All-Star team
1969-71 NBA All-Defensive Second Team
1971-74 All-NBA First Team
1972-76 NBA All-Defensive First Team
1974 Most Valuable Player NBA Finals
1978 Havlicek's number 17 retired by Celtics
1980 NBA 35th Anniversary Team
1996 NBA 50th Anniversary Team


Keep laughing. :rolleyes

[baseline bum]

Allen Iverson - No way
Steve Nash - No fucking way
Clyde Drexler - Arguable; I'd lean to yes.
Dr J - Yes
Patrick Ewing - No
Shaquille O'Neal - Easily
Oscar Robertson - Easily
James Worthy - I'm a huge fan of Big Game James, but no way he's as versatile as Scottie.
David Robinson - Probably
George Mikan - LMFAO. You gotta be kidding me.
Rick Barry - I think so
Reggie Miller - Nope
Elgin Baylor - Yeah
Willis Reed - No
Kevin Garnett - Yes
Dominique Wilkens - No
Jason Kidd - No
Bob Pettit - Yes
John Havlicek - Yes

[LnGrrrR]

I think this is for the 50 Greatest Players of All Time, Lngrrr, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yup, that's it.

[LnGrrrR]

Just for reference:

Havlicek stats:

20.8 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.8 APG, .439 FG %

Pippen stats:

16.1 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.2 APG, .473 FG %

I'm pretty sure Havlicek can hold his own over Pippen. I'd put him over Pippen personally.

[dirk4mvp]

Not bad considering he was playing with the best offensive player of all time right beside him.

[LnGrrrR]

Allen Iverson - No way
Steve Nash - No fucking way
Clyde Drexler - Arguable; I'd lean to yes.
Dr J - Yes
Patrick Ewing - No
Shaquille O'Neal - Easily
Oscar Robertson - Easily
James Worthy - I'm a huge fan of Big Game James, but no way he's as versatile as Scottie.
David Robinson - Probably
George Mikan - LMFAO. You gotta be kidding me.
Rick Barry - I think so
Reggie Miller - Nope
Elgin Baylor - Yeah
Willis Reed - No
Kevin Garnett - Yes
Dominique Wilkens - No
Jason Kidd - No
Bob Pettit - Yes
John Havlicek - Yes

Mikan did average 22.3 PPG and 13.4 RPG in the NBA alone. Now, I haven't seen footage of his play, but I could reasonably see him being picked ahead of Pippen.

Rick Barry has the stats, but I'm too young/uneducated to know whether he had the same impact Pippen had.

[LnGrrrR]

Not bad considering he was playing with the best offensive player of all time right beside him.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 60's Celtics had some decent offensive players as well.

[Findog]

barkley - no
karl malone - no
moses malone
dr. j

[dirk4mvp]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 60's Celtics had some decent offensive players as well.

I don't recall any MJ's on those teams.

[MB20]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 60's Celtics had some decent offensive players as well.

And Havlicek came off the bench!
The 6th man award exists because of him.


http://www.nba.com/history/players/havlicek_bio.html

[LnGrrrR]

I don't recall any MJ's on those teams.

Work on your reading comprehension. ^^ This guy understood what I was saying.

[dirk4mvp]

Work on stop picking players cuz he played for your team.

Pippen > what's his face

[LnGrrrR]

Work on stop picking players cuz he played for your team.

Pippen > what's his face

Are you a putz? Havlicek scored more than Pippen, COMING OFF THE BENCH.

From the link posted above:



He appeared in 13 consecutive NBA All-Star Games, earned 11 selections to the All-NBA First or Second Team and was named to the NBA All-Defensive First or Second Team eight times.

A classic example of his clutch performing occurred in the seventh game of the 1965 Eastern Division Finals against the Philadelphia 76ers. With only five seconds left in the game, he deflected an inbounds pass from Hal Greer to save a one-point Celtics victory, prompting broadcaster Johnny Most's legendary call (http://www.nba.com/history/havliceksteal_moments.html), "Havlicek steals it. Over to Sam Jones. Havlicek stole the ball! It's all over! Johnny Havlicek stole the ball!"

The 1969-70 campaign put an end to the Celtics' dynasty. With Russell and Jones retired, the team failed to make the playoffs for the first time in 20 years. Under new coach Tom Heinsohn (http://www.nba.com/history/players/heinsohn_summary.html), Havlicek became a starter and the hub of Boston's offense. He had a sensational year, accomplishing the rare feat of leading his team in three categories: scoring (24.2 ppg), rebounding (7.8 rpg), and assists (6.8 apg). He ranked eighth in the league in scoring and seventh in assists.

In 1970-71 and 1971-72 he averaged 28.9 and 27.5 points, respectively. Despite having turned 30 years old in 1970, he led the league in minutes played for both of those seasons, averaging more than 45 minutes per game.


There's nothing homerish about it. Trust me; I'll admit when I'm being a homer. I'm not here. Havlicek outranks Pippenin accomplishment, stats AND rings.

Edit: Oh, and let's not forget he won some rings as the Alpha Dog.

[Hornets1]

Gary Payton

[The Gemini Method]

Another subjective debate that is steeped in overrating/underrating a player who was the 2nd best player on quite possibly one of the best teams of all-time. As the old adage goes, w/o Pippen; Jordan doesnt' win six rings. He may win one or up to 3, but without Pippen being the sidekick, there is no way he makes two seperate 3-peats. To put the likes of Nash, Garnett, and even LeBron above him at this point is not right. While LeBron and Garnett have time to build on their legacies, Pippen shouldn't even be brought up in this manner. There were times when MJ would be struggling and Pippen would seem to not miss. There were also times when the two of them hounded a team's backcourt and just wrecked havoc.

[Greg Oden]

Are you a putz? Havlicek scored more than Pippen, COMING OFF THE BENCH.

So was he not good enough to start and he scored more points while playing against other team's bench players that leads you to this opinion? Or was it that he played more minutes than Pippen? Or maybe it was the weaker era? idk.

[Hornets1]

MARAVICH


Mchale
Archibald
Frazier
Bill Walton
Lenny Wilkens

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 60's Celtics had some decent offensive players as well.


I read a book about auerbach and Havlicek was the player he had as a 6th man so he could come in with fresh legs while the other team's players were beginning to get fatigued and score at will.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Scoring x amount of points off the bench isn't any harder than scoring x amount of points as a starter.....in fact it's probably easier.

[LnGrrrR]

I read a book about auerbach and Havlicek was the player he had as a 6th man so he could come in with fresh legs while the other team's players were beginning to get fatigued and score at will.

Yes. Plus, I also posted that he scored 28 PPG as a starter, so it wasn't off inferior competition.

[MB20]

So was he not good enough to start and he scored more points while playing against other team's bench players that leads you to this opinion? Or was it that he played more minutes than Pippen? Or maybe it was the weaker era? idk.

He was good enough to be a starter. But the coach wanted him to be the spark off the bench.

Think of a better version (much better) of Manu Ginobili. :hat

[LnGrrrR]

So was he not good enough to start and he scored more points while playing against other team's bench players that leads you to this opinion? Or was it that he played more minutes than Pippen? Or maybe it was the weaker era? idk.

Havlicek was often in at the end of the game. Even though he came off the bench, he still played significant minutes throughout his career.

[sonic21]

SF better than him

Bird
Baylor
Dr J
havlicek
Rick Barry ?

[MB20]

I think I made my point about Hondo.

By the way:

Jerry West told Sports Illustrated, "The guy is the ambassador of our sport. John always gave his very best every night and had time for everybody-teammates, fans, the press." Cowens added, "You tell me how many class guys there are like him anywhere. They ought to retire his number from the whole NBA. Just take 17 and stash it up there in lights."

But the highest compliment may have come during a halftime salute in his final game at Boston Garden, in which Havlicek, in typical fashion, scored 29 points. "He epitomizes everything good," said Celtics General Manager Red Auerbach in The New York Times. "If I had a son like John I'd be the happiest man in the world."

[Allanon]

SF better than him

Bird
Baylor
Dr J


Those 3 guys obviously better.

These next two, I dunno.



havlicek
Rick Barry ?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

OK, Havlicek was used off the bench, but he was certainly good enough to start, he is Boston's all time scoring leader.

[DAF86]

Scoring x amount of points off the bench isn't any harder than scoring x amount of points as a starter.....in fact it's probably easier.

That's bullshit, scoring more points as a starter is easier for the simple reason that you play more minutes per game.

[DAF86]

SF better than him

Bird
Baylor
Dr J
havlicek
Rick Barry ?

I haven't seen any of them play, but if you go by numbers then you should definitely put them ahead of Pippen.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's bullshit, scoring more points as a starter is easier for the simple reason that you play more minutes per game.


Obviously if someone plays more minutes it's easier. If a player comes off the bench but still gets starter's minutes, it's not harder to score.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

career:

Havlicek 36.6 minutes per game
Pippen 34.9 minutes per game

Nice try with the minutes argument.

[DAF86]

Obviously if someone plays more minutes it's easier. If a player comes off the bench but still gets starter's minutes, it's not harder to score.

If you come out off the bench you will never play the same minutes that you'd play as a starter, I know this for Manu.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pippen led a 47 win team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals......he's one of the most underrated players of all time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If you come out off the bench you will never play the same minutes that you'd play as a starter, I know this for Manu.


Read the post just above this one^

[Allanon]

Pippen led a 47 win team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals.

Wow, that's a pretty damn amazing stat, I never knew that was even possible.

[DAF86]

career:

Havlicek 36.6 minutes per game
Pippen 34.9 minutes per game

Nice try with the minutes argument.

If Havlicek would have played as a starter his whole career he would have averaged more minutes per game (therefore more points per game) and if Pippen would have played his whole career as a sub he would have averaged less minutes per game (therefore less points per game).

That's what I was trying to say. I wasn't comparing Havlicek to Pippen.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Havlicek would have played as a starter his whole career he would have averaged more minutes per game (therefore more points per game) and if Pippen would have played his whole career as a sub he would have averaged less minutes per game (therefore less points per game).

Is there any way you can prove this^

The 6th man on a team plays starters minutes all the time.

[DAF86]

Read the post just above this one^


If Havlicek would have played as a starter his whole career he would have averaged more minutes per game (therefore more points per game) and if Pippen would have played his whole career as a sub he would have averaged less minutes per game (therefore less points per game).

That's what I was trying to say. I wasn't comparing Havlicek to Pippen.

Even though Manu came off the bench he averaged more minutes per game than Bonner 'cause Manu is the better player, but that's not the point I'm trying to make, what I tried to say is that if Manu would have played as a starter he would have played more and he would have had better numbers.

[DAF86]

Pippen led a 47 win team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals......he's one of the most underrated players of all time.


Wow, that's a pretty damn amazing stat, I never knew that was even possible.

Didn't Lebron do that?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wow, that's a pretty damn amazing stat, I never knew that was even possible.


I feel bad for Pippen because of how much he was overshadowed by MJ. As annoying as it might be when Kobe/Lebron gets compared to MJ, it's even more annoying when Mo Williams gets compared to Pippen merely cause he's Lebron's side kick.

[LnGrrrR]

Pippen led a 47 win team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals......he's one of the most underrated players of all time.

To be fair, Havlicek led his team in points, rebounds and assists.



The 1969-70 campaign put an end to the Celtics' dynasty. With Russell and Jones retired, the team failed to make the playoffs for the first time in 20 years. Under new coach Tom Heinsohn (http://www.nba.com/history/players/heinsohn_summary.html), Havlicek became a starter and the hub of Boston's offense. He had a sensational year, accomplishing the rare feat of leading his team in three categories: scoring (24.2 ppg), rebounding (7.8 rpg), and assists (6.8 apg). He ranked eighth in the league in scoring and seventh in assists


Note that blocks and steals weren't recorded until 74. It's doubtful he would have led his team in blocks, but he might have in steals. (Steals were recorded for the last 4 years of his career, in which he was in the top 3 of Celtics players steal totals each year, 5 total.)

[DAF86]

Is there any way you can prove this^

The 6th man on a team plays starters minutes all the time.

But not as many minutes as he could play starting the game from the get go.

[da_suns_fan]

You know what Im thinking?

Im thinking half these posters are kids who were too young to even remember how unblievable Pippen was in the 90s.

Fantastic athlete. Unbelievable basketball IQ. Great defender. Very fluid.

One of the best ever. LMAO at "Bill Walton", "Jason Kidd", "Clyde Drexler", "Patrick Ewing", and half the players from the 60s who were playing against a bunch of white stiffs.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Didn't Lebron do that?


Yes.

[sonic21]

it's really close beetween these two. I'd take Hondo because he was very clutch, which was never Pippen's forte.

[dirk4mvp]

But not as many minutes as he could play starting the game from the get go.

Huh? Jason Terry comes off the bench and he averaged more minutes than Josh Howard last season.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You know what Im thinking?

Im thinking half these posters are kids who were too young to even remember how unblievable Pippen was in the 90s.

Fantastic athlete. Unbelievable basketball IQ. Great defender. Very fluid.


I'm too young to remember him (as you would know), I'm just blindly defending him cause it's not fair how ordinary people think he was just cause he wasn't able to put up great offensive stats when he played on the same team as the greatest player of all time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pippen vs. Havlicek one on one, who wins?

[LnGrrrR]

You know what Im thinking?

Im thinking half these posters are kids who were too young to even remember how unblievable Pippen was in the 90s.

Fantastic athlete. Unbelievable basketball IQ. Great defender. Very fluid.

One of the best ever. LMAO at "Bill Walton", "Jason Kidd", "Clyde Drexler", "Patrick Ewing", and half the players from the 60s who were playing against a bunch of white stiffs.

Bill Walton didn't play in the 60's, and for his first few years in the league he put up some good numbers.

Additionally, I think Pippen was a great player. I'm just putting it out there to see if we can name 50 better players.

[LnGrrrR]

Pippen vs. Havlicek one on one, who wins?

Tough to say... but it'd probably take them 3 hours to win a game to 21. They both were great defenders.

[da_suns_fan]

This was an idea brought up in the Kobe vs MJ thread...

Can this board name 50 players better than Pippen?

I'll start off with some easy ones:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Bill Russell
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Shaquille O' Neal
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Jerry West - FALSE!
9) Bob Cousy - FALSE!
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
11) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12) John Havlicek - FALSE!
13) Rick Barry - FALSE!
14) Tim Duncan
15) Karl Malone
16) John Stockton - FALSE!
17) Julius Erving
18) George Gervin - FALSE!
19) David Robinson - FALSE!
20) Oscar Robertson - FALSE!
21) George Mikan - FALSE! Are you fuckig kidding me?
22) Elgin Baylor
23) Kevin McHale - FALSE! :lol
24) Pete Maravich - FALSE!
25) Nate Archibald - FALSE!
26) Bill Walton - FALSE!

26 and counting... I'll put disputed names near the bottom of the list.


This list is pathetic. However, I think LeBron probably needs to be on there.

[dirk4mvp]

Pippen vs. Havlicek one on one, who wins?

If they were going to 11 by 1's, Havlicek would be lucky to score 4.

[sonic21]

This list is pathetic. However, I think LeBron probably needs to be on there.

West is clearly better

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Tough to say... but it'd probably take them 3 hours to win a game to 21. They both were great defenders.


I'd love to see Havlicek's defense if he had to guard the players Pippen did.

[da_suns_fan]

Bill Walton didn't play in the 60's, and for his first few years in the league he put up some good numbers.

Additionally, I think Pippen was a great player. I'm just putting it out there to see if we can name 50 better players.

I didnt say he played in the 60s.

I think you are confused. What I was saying was the players that I listed IN ADDITION to half those players from the 60s couldnt touch Pippen.

Comparing George Mikan and Jerry West and Oscar Robertson to Scottie Pippen is like comparing an English Spitfire to an F-14.

[LnGrrrR]

For the era he was in, George Mikan was a heck of a player. Jerry West would be an amazing player TODAY. He averaged 27 PPG, 5.8 RPG, and 6.7 APG, plus he was clutch. Stockton is the all-time assists leader (and steals I believe as well). Kevin McHale was a beast.

And yet, you'd put LEBRON on there? After how many years in the league, and no rings yet?

[sonic21]

Here's the thing both guys were like point forwards out there. Both guys are arguably the top two defenders at the small forward position ever. But Hondo in time was the number one scoring option for the Celtics.

And Hondo was really clutch compared to Pippen.

[DAF86]

Huh? Jason Terry comes off the bench and he averaged more minutes than Josh Howard last season.

Yeah so? you're not refuting my point with that comment.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1966/0509_large.jpg vs. http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/scorecard/10/04/truth.rumors1/p1_pippen_getty.jpg



I certainly know who'd get picked before the other in a pickup game :lol

[Greg Oden]

Yeah so? you're not refuting my point with that comment.

Yeah he did. You're under some idiotic misconception that coming off the bench limits the minutes you can play.

[LnGrrrR]

Have any of you guys watched the old games? The game is different, but some of those players from the 60's could hold their own with players today. The biggest difference is that players today are much stronger and athletic than in the 60's. Players from the 50's and 60's had equal 'skill' compared to the majority of today's players though.

A question like "Could Havlicek defend Pippen?" is impossible to determine one way or another... no one could really answer it. given that they were both recognized as some of the best defenders of their days, I'm inclined to say they could both defend each other.

The biggest change in the NBA is the increased strength of players... that wouldn't factor in as much for a Havlicek/Pippen matchup, I think.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DAF, I was looking at Manu's splits, and yeah he averages more minutes when he starts, but his FG% is a lot better coming off the bench which results in very similar stats.

[LnGrrrR]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1966/0509_large.jpg vs. http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/scorecard/10/04/truth.rumors1/p1_pippen_getty.jpg



I certainly know who'd get picked before the other in a pickup game :lol

Well they both have six rings, so I guess if we're looking for an inane way to compare players, we should go by styles of the time they played in. :D

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well they both have six rings, so I guess if we're looking for an inane way to compare players, we should go by styles of the time they played in. :D


My post was just a joke.

[LnGrrrR]

My post was just a joke.

I know... hence my smiley face :)

[DAF86]

DAF, I was looking at Manu's splits, and yeah he averages more minutes when he starts, but his FG% is a lot better coming off the bench which results in very similar stats.

He averages more points per game shooting at a lower percent when he starts, simply 'cause he plays more minutes. I think my point is made.

[TD4THREE]

This list is pathetic. However, I think LeBron probably needs to be on there.Robinson>>Pippen.

[sonic21]

Pippen has 0 final MVP, so i put him behind Hondo, Parker and Billups

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He averages more points per game shooting at a lower percent when he starts, simply 'cause he plays more minutes. I think my point is made.


So you're admitting Manu would be a less efficient player if he was a full time starter?

[Allanon]

Pippen has 0 final MVP, so i put him behind Hondo, Parker and Billups

in fairness to Pippen, it's hard getting that MVP when you're playing with the greatest player ever :lol

[jack sommerset]

Pipen is no top 50 player because of Jordans 6 rings. That logic throw Horry somewhere in front of Pipen.

[DAF86]

Yeah he did. You're under some idiotic misconception that coming off the bench limits the minutes you can play.

Is not idiotic. If you start you will probably play more minutes per game than if you come off the bench (you'll still average more minutes per game than lesser players than you, and not always) and if you play more minutes per game you will probably average better raw numbers.

[jack sommerset]

Pippen has 0 final MVP, so i put him behind Hondo, Parker and Billups

Parker :lol made my day

[da_suns_fan]

For the era he was in, George Mikan was a heck of a player. Jerry West would be an amazing player TODAY. He averaged 27 PPG, 5.8 RPG, and 6.7 APG, plus he was clutch. Stockton is the all-time assists leader (and steals I believe as well). Kevin McHale was a beast.

And yet, you'd put LEBRON on there? After how many years in the league, and no rings yet?

This is some of the worst opinions Ive read on this board.

Did you ever even see McHale and Stockton ever play? How bout Pippen?

I can tell you at no time in the 80s or 90s would I have EVER chosen to face Pippen over those two. Pippen was just a natural basketball player in every sense of the word.

That being said, he just wasnt the bizzare physical anomaly that LeBron is. No one has EVER been that big, that fast and that fluid. He still needs to work on his shooting and he cant do it alone, but theres no way in hell anyone would choose Stockton, McHale or even Pippen over LeBron if they were going to choose a teammate for five on five.

[DAF86]

So you're admitting Manu would be a less efficient player if he was a full time starter?

His PER stat would definitely take a hit, but his raw numbers will increase.

[da_suns_fan]

Robinson>>Pippen.

Sorry, but no.

Duncan? Yes. The Admiral? No.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pipen is no top 50 player because of Jordans 6 rings. That logic throw Horry somewhere in front of Pipen.

You can't compare the best side kick in NBA history to someone who was like the 8th man on every championship team he played on.

MJ has as many rings w/o Pippen as Pippen has w/o MJ. MJ doesn't win shit if Scottie isn't on his team.

In fact, MJ never led the Bulls to 50 wins when Scottie wasn't on his team. The Bulls did however have a 50 win season when MJ was playing baseball and Scottie was the best player.

[Amaso]

Pippen is so underrated, you'd expect better from fans that like basketball enough to post on internet forums about it.

[LnGrrrR]

This is some of the worst opinions Ive read on this board.

Did you ever even see McHale and Stockton ever play? How bout Pippen?

I can tell you at no time in the 80s or 90s would I have EVER chosen to face Pippen over those two. Pippen was just a natural basketball player in every sense of the word.

That being said, he just wasnt the bizzare physical anomaly that LeBron is. No one has EVER been that big, that fast and that fluid. He still needs to work on his shooting and he cant do it alone, but theres no way in hell anyone would choose Stockton, McHale or even Pippen over LeBron if they were going to choose a teammate for five on five.

I'm not talking about who'd you pick in a pickup game.

We're talking about who the best 50 players ever were. What they did in their career is a valid and important indicator. People who made the clutch shots, got the awards, and whatnot.

Is it really a surprise that Lebron is bigger and faster than players from the 50s? Considering players of EVERY sport are larger, faster, stronger? You have to compare players to the competition they went up against back in the day. It's a testament to the skill of people like Russell and Chamberlain that it's even discussed whether they could ball with players of today.

Edit: Lebron IS a singular talent; however, I'm not putting him over Pippen yet.

[da_suns_fan]

Pippen is so underrated, you'd expect better from fans that like basketball enough to post on internet forums about it.

Well I don know how "underrated" you can be when youre on the 50 best players of all time list.

But I agree that the lack of respect on this thread is ridiculous and I HAVE to attribute it to too many clueless kids on summer vacation.

[DAF86]

Sorry, but no.

Duncan? Yes. The Admiral? No.

Robinson > Pippen - it shouldn't even be debatable

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well I don know how "underrated" you can be when youre on the 50 best players of all time list.


You're underrated when you're as good as Pippen was and ESPN is comparing you to Mo Williams.

[da_suns_fan]

I'm not talking about who'd you pick in a pickup game.

We're talking about who the best 50 players ever were. What they did in their career is a valid and important indicator. People who made the clutch shots, got the awards, and whatnot.

Is it really a surprise that Lebron is bigger and faster than players from the 50s? Considering players of EVERY sport are larger, faster, stronger? You have to compare players to the competition they went up against back in the day. It's a testament to the skill of people like Russell and Chamberlain that it's even discussed whether they could ball with players of today.

Edit: Lebron IS a singular talent; however, I'm not putting him over Pippen yet.


Huh?

So "50 players better than Pippen" turns into "50 careers better than Pippen?"

I have no desire to count rings, awards etc.

You guys be my guest.

[LnGrrrR]

Huh?

So "50 players better than Pippen" turns into "50 careers better than Pippen?"

I have no desire to count rings, awards etc.

You guys be my guest.

Sheesh.

Using your logic, then all the best NFL lineman ever are pretty much playing today, because they're all ridiculously huge AND fast.

The best 50 players should not just be a straight-up comparison, but a comparison of how much they dominated the league at the time they were playing.

[da_suns_fan]

Robinson > Pippen - it shouldn't even be debatable


:lol

Lets see. Both Robinson and Pipper were only able to get to the respective conference finals as the best player on their team. They both played in the same era for about the same amount of years. They both won multiple championships as second fiddle to a truly epic "top ten ever" player yet its not even "debatable" who was better?

Sorry, but if I had both staring back at me and I had to choose one I would pick Pippen any day of the week. He was just better at winning basketball games.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lol

Lets see. Both Robinson and Pipper were only able to get to the respective conference finals as the best player on their team. They both played in the same era for about the same amount of years. They both won multiple championships as second fiddle to a truly epic "top ten ever" player yet its not even "debatable" who was better?


:lmao

[da_suns_fan]

Sheesh.

Using your logic, then all the best NFL lineman ever are pretty much playing today, because they're all ridiculously huge AND fast.

The best 50 players should not just be a straight-up comparison, but a comparison of how much they dominated the league at the time they were playing.

Thats not necessarily true.

I have no problem with Kareem, Magic and Bird being in the "top ten EVER" list even though all of them were in their respective primes over 20 years ago.

It doesnt matter, they would still be just as dominant today.

Mikan wouldnt dominate today. Neither would West. McHale didnt dominate in his own prime! :lol

[sonic21]

:lol

Lets see. Both Robinson and Pipper were only able to get to the respective conference finals as the best player on their team. They both played in the same era for about the same amount of years. They both won multiple championships as second fiddle to a truly epic "top ten ever" player yet its not even "debatable" who was better?

Sorry, but if I had both staring back at me and I had to choose one I would pick Pippen any day of the week. He was just better at winning basketball games.

why? they were both great defensively and Drob was by far a better offensive player.

[IronMexican]

I can't even pretend to try and piss spurfans off when it comes to Robinson or Pippen. D-Rob is a lot better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

why? they were both great defensively and Drob was a better offensive player.


IMO they're not very comparable, but Pippen wasn't the featured offensive player during his prime, up until Robinson was in his 30's he was the focal point of his team.

[LnGrrrR]

Thats not necessarily true.

I have no problem with Kareem, Magic and Bird being in the "top ten EVER" list even though all of them were in their respective primes over 20 years ago.

It doesnt matter, they would still be just as dominant today.

Mikan wouldnt dominate today. Neither would West. McHale didnt dominate in his own prime! :lol

McHale went to 7 All-Star games, 6 of them straight. 6 All defense teams (3 1st, 3 2nd). 1 All-NBA. (Yes, I know Pippen has better accolades here.)

Now, if you want to argue that Pippen is better than McHale, sure I'll hear that, and might even agree. I'm willing to adjust the list... that's the point of this thread. None of this is set in stone.

[DAF86]

:lol

Lets see. Both Robinson and Pipper were only able to get to the respective conference finals as the best player on their team. They both played in the same era for about the same amount of years. They both won multiple championships as second fiddle to a truly epic "top ten ever" player yet its not even "debatable" who was better?

Sorry, but if I had both staring back at me and I had to choose one I would pick Pippen any day of the week. He was just better at winning basketball games.


:lmao

I don't know what's so funny, I'm pretty sure that if you ask, 90% of the basketball fans in the world will tell you that Robinson is better than Pippen without a doubt.

[TD4THREE]

Sorry, but no.

Duncan? Yes. The Admiral? No. Robinson was the league MVP and DPOY during his career. Did pippen even win DPOY? He was one of the best defensive big men of his time, and on top of that won a scoring title in 94 averaging over 29 points a game in a season. Which shows how much he dominated on both sides of the ball. How is Pippen better again?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

How is Pippen better again?


Because he wasn't a choker.

[da_suns_fan]

I don't know what's so funny, I'm pretty sure that if you ask, 90% of the basketball fans in the world will tell you that Robinson is better than Pippen without a doubt.

:rolleyes

Pippen would win on sheer name recognition. David Robinson was never very popular outside San Antonio where the Bulls (thanks to Michael) were the official band-wagon team of the 90s.

[DAF86]

:rolleyes

Pippen would win on sheer name recognition. David Robinson was never very popular outside San Antonio where the Bulls (thanks to Michael) were the official band-wagon team of the 90s.

I'm talking about people that actually watch the games and know at least something about this game.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When you win MVP, the award is somewhat diminished when you get thrashed around the way Robinson was by Olajuwon in 1995.

[TD4THREE]

Because he wasn't a choker.No more like a quitter. See 94 playoffs.

[Tully365]

Bill Walton when healthy and at his best was better than Pippen, but Pippen had a better career because he played at the highest level for a solid decade.

If there hadn't been about five no calls on Shaq in game 7 of that classic Portland/Laker playoff finale, Pippen would probably have seven rings.

[sonic21]

Because he wasn't a choker.

Pippen was not that clutch either.
He was MIA when the Blazers had the most collosal Game 7 fourth quarter choke in NBA playoff history against LA.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Pippen was not that clutch either.
He was MIA when the Blazers had the most collosal Game 7 fourth quarter choke in NBA playoff history against LA.


Pippen was the #3 scoring option on that team.

[sonic21]

Pippen was the #3 scoring option on that team.

but he didn't try to do anything, he was watching Sheed and Grant(?) lay bricks instead of taking over (like any 3rd option would try to do if your main players are choking).

[da_suns_fan]

Robinson was the league MVP and DPOY during his career. Did pippen even win DPOY? He was one of the best defensive big men of his time, and on top of that won a scoring title in 94 averaging over 29 points a game in a season. Which shows how much he dominated on both sides of the ball. How is Pippen better again?


I could easily say "Count the rings" but that would make as much sense as youre making.

Youre comparing the two players based off awards which isnt valid considering Pippen was playing second fiddle his entire career, thus it wasnt as if he had the same opportunities to win an MVP that Robinson did.

In the one year Jordan was out, Pippen came in third in MVP voting. So if Pippen had his own team for most of his career, its reasonable to think he could have won an MVP trophy. On almost every other standard they are quite similar. I give the edge to Pippen based off Pippen's uncanny Basketball IQ, grace and pure enjoyment to watch.

All any non-Spurs-fan remembers about Robinson was that he was a really nice guy and that he got owned by Hakeem.

[baseline bum]

MARAVICH


Mchale
Archibald
Frazier
Bill Walton
Lenny Wilkens

I wouldn't take any of them over Pippen; especially not a showboater whose teams were horrible like Maravich.

[da_suns_fan]

btw, Im allowed to be a homer and say that Charles Barkley in 1993 >>>> Pippen at any point in his career.

[baseline bum]

Pippen was not that clutch either.
He was MIA when the Blazers had the most collosal Game 7 fourth quarter choke in NBA playoff history against LA.

Pippen was the one who led the Bulls back from 14-15 down in the fourth of game 6 vs Portland while Jordan was on the bench. Pippen pretty much did it all in the fourth of that game. Scoring, rebounding, a shot-block, assists, etc. I'd say leading the biggest fourth quarter come-back in Finals history to win the title that night would qualify as a pretty clutch performance.

[sonic21]

Pippen was the one who led the Bulls back from 14-15 down in the fourth of game 6 vs Portland while Jordan was on the bench. Pippen pretty much did it all in the fourth of that game. Scoring, rebounding, a shot-block, assists, etc. I'd say leading the biggest fourth quarter come-back in Finals history to win the title that night would qualify as a pretty clutch performance.

yes he was great that game, and he had an amazing series against the knicks too. But I still don't think he is clutch. We all know what happened when Pippen took over the reign over the bulls. It was Kukoc who took the big shots, and in portland Pippen again choked.
imo great player but not clutch.

[anonoftheinternets]

I could easily say "Count the rings" but that would make as much sense as youre making.

Youre comparing the two players based off awards which isnt valid considering Pippen was playing second fiddle his entire career, thus it wasnt as if he had the same opportunities to win an MVP that Robinson did.

In the one year Jordan was out, Pippen came in third in MVP voting. So if Pippen had his own team for most of his career, its reasonable to think he could have won an MVP trophy. On almost every other standard they are quite similar. I give the edge to Pippen based off Pippen's uncanny Basketball IQ, grace and pure enjoyment to watch.

All any non-Spurs-fan remembers about Robinson was that he was a really nice guy and that he got owned by Hakeem.

the reason pippen was not the number 1 option, is coz no one thought he was good enuf, else some GM would have built a team around him.

[benefactor]

btw, Im allowed to be a homer and say that Charles Barkley in 1993 >>>> Pippen at any point in his career.
It would be close...but I might take a prime Charles Barkley over Pippen. You saying that he was better than DRob is epic fail though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

the reason pippen was not the number 1 option, is coz no one thought he was good enuf, else some GM would have built a team around him.

What the hell do you mean some other GM would have built a team around him?

And Robinson wasn't good enough to be the #1 option either.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Idk who I'd take, heck I'd probably take Robinson since he was an offensive stud, but the distance between the two isn't extremely big.

[TD4THREE]

In the one year Jordan was out, Pippen came in third in MVP voting. So if Pippen had his own team for most of his career, its reasonable to think he could have won an MVP trophy. On almost every other standard they are quite similar. I give the edge to Pippen based off Pippen's uncanny Basketball IQ, grace and pure enjoyment to watch.I'll leave the specualtion to you. Could he have won an mvp, maybe, personally I don't see him winning it over Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson,Malone etc.


All any non-Spurs-fan remembers about Robinson was that he was a really nice guy and that he got owned by Hakeem.No, I think most people will remember him as one of the greatest centers in an era loaded with great centers. And Hakeem owned everyone then,how this makes Scottie better than Drob, I have no clue.

[Muser]

Robinson > Barkley > Pippen.

IMO.

[Amaso]

Pippen was not that clutch either.
He was MIA when the Blazers had the most collosal Game 7 fourth quarter choke in NBA playoff history against LA.

Pippen was old

[Amaso]

Robinson > Barkley > Pippen.

IMO.

Barkley > Pippen > Robinson

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'll leave the specualtion to you. Could he have won an mvp, maybe, personally I don't see him winning it over Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson,Malone etc .


The year D-Rob won it he didn't have to compete with MJ for it.

[DAF86]

Robinson > Barkley > Pippen.

IMO.

Agreed

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Robinson > Barkley


It's funny how easily the two could have been on the same team.

[anonoftheinternets]

What the hell do you mean some other GM would have built a team around him?

And Robinson wasn't good enough to be the #1 option either.

point is the market knows best. If you are good enough to be a franchise player, eventually some GM will try to build a team around you. Else you will get traded and become a second fiddle. If you are not a clear cut franchise player, no business being in the top 10 all time.

[TD4THREE]

The year D-Rob won it he didn't have to compete with MJ for it.I know.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And no fuckin way Robinson > Barkley, Barkley has him beat stat wise and career achievement wise.

[Galileo]

These are the only NBA players better than Pippen:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kobe Bryant
Bob Pettit
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bob Cousy
John Havlicek
Sam Jones

Equal to Pippen:

Moses Malone
George Mikan

Pippin is basically a top 20 all-time NBA player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Barkley:
22.1 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 54% shooting

Robinson:
21.1 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 52% shooting

Robinson has also not gotten as far as Barkley as the #1 option on his team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also, look at playoff stats:

Barkley:
23 points, 12.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 51% shooting

Robinson:
18.1 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 48% shooting

One stepped up for the playoffs throughout his career, while the other faded.

[sonic21]

These are the only NBA players better than Pippen:
...


Dr J?

[DAF86]

Barkley:
22.1 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 54% shooting

Robinson:
21.1 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 52% shooting

Robinson has also not gotten as far as Barkley as the #1 option on his team.


Also, look at playoff stats:

Barkley:
23 points, 12.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 51% shooting

Robinson:
18.1 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 48% shooting

One stepped up for the playoffs throughout his career, while the other faded.

Robinson played longer as a role player than Barkley that's why his career stats are worse than Charles'. But David was a beast during his prime.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Robinson played longer as a role player than Barkley that's why his career stats are worse than Charles'. But David was a beast during his prime.


Robinson had 6 seasons where he the role player to Duncan

Barkley had 4 seasons as the role player to Olajuwon, and 2 seasons as the role player to Moses Malone, so he, like Robinson, had 6 seasons as the role player to a dominant big man.

[Dunc n Dave]

This board must be full of poster who were born in the late 80's and early 90's.

Pippen is SO UNDER APPRECIATED. His stats don't tell the whole story, but look at his resume:

17 seasons
6 Time NBA Champion
7 Time All NBA Team Selection (3-1st Team Selections, 2 -2nd Team)
10 Time All Defensive Team Selection (8 times selected to the 1st Team)
1994 All Star MVP (while Jordan was playing baseball)
1 of 50 Greatest Players for 50th Year NBA Anniversary


Everyone says he was nothing without Jordan, but look at his how his stats increased while Jordan played baseball yet he played the same number of minutes.

92-93 w/ Jordan: 38 minutes, 47% FG, 23% 3pt, 66% FT, 7.7 Reb, 6.3 ast, 2.1 stl, 0.9 blks, 18.6 ppg

93-94 no Jordan: 38 minutes, 49% FG, 32% 3pt, 66% FT, 8.7 reb, 5.6 ast, 2.9 stl, 0.8 blk, 22.0 ppg

94-95 stats (Jordan only played last few games wearing #45)
38 minutes 48% FG, 34% 3pt, 72 % FT, 8.1 reb, 5.2 ast, 2.9 stl, 1.1 blk, 21.4 ppg

He played the same minutes as he did before jordan left and stepped up his game. Only area that went down was assists, which is understandable since anyone can rack up assists by passing the ball to MJ and letting him go to work. Yet even without Jordan he averaged more than 5 asts as a SF.

The guy was a stat stuffer. Look at those steal and block numbers for a 6'8" small forward. This isn't a 6'11" SF like we have in the NBA today. He was a TRUE ATHLETE.


Alot of you guys on here are all about scoring. They gotta average 24ppg or they are not a Top 50 player... blah blah blah....

I call bullshit! The guy was a TRUE all around player. A perrenial ALL NBA Selection AND a perrenial ALL Defensive Team selection. 10 TIMES!!!! 8 of those 10 he was first team, meaning the best defensive SF in ALL OF BASKETBALL for 8 years, during a time in the NBA known for tough defensive play!

There is no way you can truly say there are 50 players better than him. Unless you are a run-n-gun Suns fan, you can't discount Pippen's defense. It is unmatched as a SF.

I could be wrong, but I DOUBT there are 5 small forwards that can match or beat Pippen's resume BOTH offensively AND DEFENSIVELY. 7 Time ALL-NBA, 10 Time All-Defense. Someone, please prove me wrong...

[Galileo]

Dr J?

If ABA included, then add in Dr. J and Rick Barry.

[angelbelow]

I don't think we can name 50 ahead of pippen

[benefactor]

who are those players?
All except the very top...Bryant, Duncan, Wade and LeBron. Duncan is close because Duncan right now is on the back end of his career. I'd draft Duncan over him though...for obvious reasons. Dirk would be close too, because though Dirk is one of the greatest scoring forwards ever, his overall value is pretty close to Pippen when you consider Pippen's all around game.

I'd take Pippen over Melo, Parker, Paul, D. Howard, Amare, Nash, Garnett, Pierce, Iguodala, Gasol...did I miss anyone?

[anakha]

It was Kukoc who took the big shots, and in portland Pippen again choked.
imo great player but not clutch.

W.
T.
F.

Kukoc gets picked to take (and make) one shot in the playoffs against the Knicks, and now he's more clutch than Pippen!?

You are certifiable.

[JK2]

Robinson > Barkley > Pippen.

IMO.
:lol :lol :lol

[resistanze]

21) George Mikan
23) Kevin McHale
24) Pete Maravich
25) Nate Archibald
26) Bill Walton

LMAO! Disagree with these.

There are probably 30 players tops that are better than Pippen in NBA history.

[mosdef17]

Barkley:
22.1 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 54% shooting

Robinson:
21.1 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 52% shooting


Tell the whole story....

D-Rob (career):
1.41 Steals, 2.99 Blocks, 2.45 Turnovers in 34.7mins per.

Charles (career):
1.54 Steals, .83 Blocks, 3.15 Turnovers in 36.7mins per.


To be fair on Robinson too, he only played in the Playoffs after they drafted Tim Duncan (and after D-Rob got hurt for a whole season) and thus his stats were never going to be that huge. Pre-Duncan playoffs probably would have seen him putting up near 25 and 14 stats with 3.5-4 blocks.

[Brazil]

Pippen is a top 30 imo

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Tell the whole story....

D-Rob (career):
1.41 Steals, 2.99 Blocks, 2.45 Turnovers in 34.7mins per.

Charles (career):
1.54 Steals, .83 Blocks, 3.15 Turnovers in 36.7mins per.


To be fair on Robinson too, he only played in the Playoffs after they drafted Tim Duncan (and after D-Rob got hurt for a whole season) and thus his stats were never going to be that huge. Pre-Duncan playoffs probably would have seen him putting up near 25 and 14 stats with 3.5-4 blocks.

:lmao, wow talk about self-ownage.

[Warlord23]

Pippen is probably top 30, definitely top 40 or so. However ... are you fuckers seriously comparing David to Pippen?

If David Robinson had had the luxury of joining Michael Jordan when he came into the NBA as a rookie, the Bulls would have had at least 8 titles. Jordan/DRob would have been the most lethal twosome of all time.

When Pip came into the NBA in 87-88 he was a rookie who couldn't crack the starting rotation and put up like 8 PPG / 4 RPG a game. Pippen's first 3 years in the league saw Jordan put up monster stats - the kind that hadn't been seen since Wilt in his prime. But the Bulls weren't contenders because Pippen took a while to develop. Those days Jordan would put public pressure on Bulls management to get him better players. Yes Pippen blossomed into a terrific complementary piece later on, but let's wait a while before comparing him to Robinson.

When David came into the league in 89-90 he put up monster numbers straight away (24 PPG, 12 RPG, 4 BPG) and was runaway rookie of the year. DRob's rookie season is one of the top 100 most productive season performances in NBA history easily. If that DRob had joined Jordan who was himself producing at historic levels, they would have run a train on the rest of the NBA.

Moving on, Robinson became one of the most efficient players in NBA history. If you rank the top 30 individual season PERs in NBA history, only 5 players figure 3 times or more:

Michael Jordan (7 times)
Shaq (6 times)
Robinson (3 times)
Wilt (3 times)
Kareem (3 times)

Pippen could never ever have put up the numbers that Robinson put up as a # 1 option: he just didn't have the offensive firepower. On defense, DRob was a DPOY winner and perennial DPOY candidate and All-defense team member playing with mediocre defensive teammates in his prime. Whereas Pippen came into a team which already had a ridiculously good defender in Jordan, and numerous additions like Grant, Rodman, Harper etc.

Bottomline, Pippen couldn't possibly have done what Robinson did. Pippen did take a team of seasoned veterans w/o Jordan to the ECSF. But that ranks nowhere near Robinson taking a team with role players like Avery, Vinny del Negro, Sean Elliott, Chuck Person, and some assorted trash to five 55+ win seasons that included 1 WCF and 3 WCSFs. No way Pippen could have broken even 45 wins with the kind of trash DRob had to play with.

Whereas DRob could very conceivably have done what Pippen did as second fiddle. DRob playing off of MJ would have been even more efficient than what he was - and he was one of the most efficient of all-time while being the sole offensive player who could create his own shot on his team.

I love Pippen, but this argument is now becoming as hilarious as Laker fans claiming Kobe was as good or better than Shaq during their 3-peat. Pippen played a very good supporting role, but had he landed on a team that was as lacking in talent as the Admiral's Spurs he wouldn't even have become as famous as Bernard King or Alex English or Dominique. The only reason he made it into the top 50 was that he found himself in a pretty solid Bulls squad with the GOAT at his prime.

[23LeBronJames23]

Why the fuck is Lebron James not on the list ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

[ambchang]

Also, look at playoff stats:

Barkley:
23 points, 12.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 51% shooting

Robinson:
18.1 points, 10.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 48% shooting

One stepped up for the playoffs throughout his career, while the other faded.

Never mind one played most of his playoff games while in his prime, while the other played a large chunk of his playoff games after two career altering injuries.

Robinson was by far a better defender, a better passer, about equal as a scorer, slightly less as a rebounder, and carried a team with Vinny Del Negro as its starting shooting guard and Avery Johnson as a starting PG to playoff after playoffs. The year he was hurt, the Spurs won about 30 less games than the previous season.

[LnGrrrR]

LMAO! Disagree with these.

There are probably 30 players tops that are better than Pippen in NBA history.

That's why I put them near the bottom. :)

[LnGrrrR]

Do people honestly think LeBron, right now, is a better player than Pippen? I'd still take Pippen over LeBron. LeBron has the potential to be better than Pippen, but I'd say he needs to put up that body of work first. His MVP this year is a good start, of course.

[sonic21]

is pippen better than kobe?

:stirpot:

[Phillip]

how the hell has Dirk not been mentioned?

Dirk > Pippen

[resistanze]

Do people honestly think LeBron, right now, is a better player than Pippen? I'd still take Pippen over LeBron. LeBron has the potential to be better than Pippen, but I'd say he needs to put up that body of work first. His MVP this year is a good start, of course.

Does his body of work surpass Pippen? Hell No.

Is LeBron better than Pippen? Absolutely. He's better now than Pippen ever was, talent-wise.

[sonic21]

Does his body of work surpass Pippen? Hell No.

Is LeBron better than Pippen? Absolutely. He's better now than Pippen ever was, talent-wise.

that doesn't make him a better player though.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm tempted to put LeBron James in the top list, since the majority of the board is willing to put him there.

[resistanze]

that doesn't make him a better player though.

Well, he is.

Pippen is obviously the better perimeter defender, and LeBron's defense was overrated this year. Nevertheless, he's improving at that end.

On offense, you can't even compare the two. Pippen was known for being very versatile on the offensive end, with his scoring, rebounding, and passing. LeBron does all of that. Pippen was never unstoppable on the offensive end at times like like Lebron is, and only a few players are capable of being.

[dallasmavsnfuego214]

Lebron is worlds better than Pippen. You put him alongside Jordan and the win 10 in a row

[Phillip]

lets compare the two...

one was a second fiddle player for his career, playing behind Michael Jordan, averaging around 16, 6, and 5, while the other has been the #1 guy his whole career, averaging around 27, 7, and 7 for his career, having been considered as the best player in the NBA by many fans for several years now.

Lebron >>> Pippen, and its not even close.

[23LeBronJames23]

Do people honestly think LeBron, right now, is a better player than Pippen? I'd still take Pippen over LeBron. LeBron has the potential to be better than Pippen, but I'd say he needs to put up that body of work first. His MVP this year is a good start, of course.

Dude u really need to watch some nba cleveland cavaliers games

[Phillip]

Do people honestly think LeBron, right now, is a better player than Pippen? I'd still take Pippen over LeBron. LeBron has the potential to be better than Pippen, but I'd say he needs to put up that body of work first. His MVP this year is a good start, of course.

either you are purposely trolling, or you are a moron of epic proportions.

[dirk4mvp]

So Havlicek can easily be better than Pippen but LeBron isn't there yet? Ok.

[IronMexican]

ROFL LeBron isn't on Pippen's level?

[Dex]

So Havlicek can easily be better than Pippen but LeBron isn't there yet? Ok.

I think people are still looking at the question different ways. If you consider:

Havlicek - 8 rings
Pippen - 6 rings
James - 0 rings

Then I can see how some people could make that argument. However, I just think that means they accomplished more with their skills, not necessarily that there skill is greater. Timing, luck, opposition...all of these things matter just as much as talent.

I think James is a more talented player than Pippen. Now he just needs to do something with it.

[dirk4mvp]

Horry > Pippen

[Phillip]

wins/rings = team accomplishment

morons

[sonic21]

Well, he is.

Pippen is obviously the better perimeter defender, and LeBron's defense was overrated this year. Nevertheless, he's improving at that end.

On offense, you can't even compare the two. Pippen was known for being very versatile on the offensive end, with his scoring, rebounding, and passing. LeBron does all of that. Pippen was never unstoppable on the offensive end at times like like Lebron is, and only a few players are capable of being.

of course lebron is way better, i was just saying being better talent-wise is not enough. Lebron resume is impressive so far.

[PM5K]

I don't know that you can ever really gauge Scottie Pippens talent, he played right next to the GOAT.

Having said that he had one of his best seasons when Jordan was gone, leading the Bulls to around 55 wins. The following year he lead the team in every major statistical category, he's only one of four players to have ever accomplished this. Sure the Bulls didn't play as well that season but Grant going to Orlando certainly didn't help them.

[resistanze]

wins/rings = team accomplishment

morons

No, no. Bill Wennington & Dick Breath > Dirk.

[Phillip]

Dirk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yao/T-Mac combined

[fo'shizzle]

This was an idea brought up in the Kobe vs MJ thread...

Can this board name 50 players better than Pippen?

I'll start off with some easy ones:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Bill Russell
5) Wilt Chamberlain
6) Shaquille O' Neal
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Jerry West
9) Bob Cousy
10) Hakeem Olajuwon
11) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
12) John Havlicek
13) Rick Barry
14) Tim Duncan
15) Karl Malone
16) Bob Pettit
17) Julius Erving
18) George Gervin
19) David Robinson
20) Oscar Robertson
21) John Havlicek
22) Elgin Baylor
23) Charles Barkley
24) Moses Malone
25) Isiah Thomas


In contention:

LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Pete Maravich
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens
Clyde Drexler
Dirk Nowitzki
Elvin Hayes

On par or not quite as good:

John Stockton
George Mikan
Kevin McHale
Nate Archibald
Bill Walton
Dave DeBusschere
Sam Jones
Earl Monroe
Robert Parish

25 and counting... separated into "in contention" categories and "not quite good enough"

Sons, there are 2 Havlicek in this list, WTF! :wow

LOL at LeBron not on the list and Wade in contention.

[23LeBronJames23]

[QUOTE=Dex;3610732]I think people are still looking at the question different ways. If you consider:

Havlicek - 8 rings
Pippen - 6 rings
James - 0 rings
[QUOTE=Dex;3610732]

so derek fisher with 4 rings is almost as good as pippen and jordan? oh and maybe we should compare derek fisher to kobe i mean:
kobe 4=rings
fisher 4=rings

[LnGrrrR]

either you are purposely trolling, or you are a moron of epic proportions.

Ok ok, LeBron is on the list... sheesh.

I've watched LeBron, and I have respect for his talent, but... I don't know. Maybe I'm just a hater. :D

[hater]

Lebron is worlds better than Pippen. You put him alongside Jordan and the win 10 in a row

no shit.

I'd also take Kevin Durant ahead of Pippen.

[LnGrrrR]

What's the general consensus for Dirk? Better than Pippen?

[hater]

What's the general consensus for Dirk? Better than Pippen?

Pippen was a superb defender. Dirk is garbage on the defensive side not to mention soft.

But for the main man in my team I might have to still pick Dirk cause I could surround him with defenders. But if I already had a superstar, I would pick Pippen over Dirk. Pippen > Dirk as a compliment next to a superstar.

[ambchang]

no shit.

I'd also take Kevin Durant ahead of Pippen.

Let's not go nuts. Durant could be a better scorer, definitely a more natural scorer, but he is no where close to Pippen in terms of defense and facilitating an offense.

Right now, Durant is closer to a Bernand King.

[Phillip]

Pippen was a superb defender. Dirk is garbage on the defensive side not to mention soft.

But for the main man in my team I might have to still pick Dirk cause I could surround him with defenders. But if I already had a superstar, I would pick Pippen over Dirk. Pippen > Dirk as a compliment next to a superstar.

Dirk isn't nearly as bad of a defender as you say he is, and he most definitely is not soft. Only morons like you think that.

Dirk is so much better of a basketball player than Pippen, it's not even funny. Pippen was a great role player, but proved that he would never be better than a #2 option, and that any team with him as the #1 guy would not be very successful. Dirk proved that he can consistently take an average supporting cast far in the playoffs, even making the Finals (that many argue they should have won if it werent for fishy officials)

It's not a "might" when it comes to taking Dirk over Pippen as your star. It's "no question about it".

Then again, it figures you would say that, spurfan.

Now proceed with your usual lame garbage saying that I'm a "mav fan that knows nothing about defense and winning... the warriors beat yall and were 8th seeds!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[hater]

Dirk isn't nearly as bad of a defender as you say he is, and he most definitely is not soft.

DENIAL



Dirk is so much better of a basketball player than Pippen, it's not even funny. Pippen was a great role player, but proved that he would never be better than a #2 option, and that any team with him as the #1 guy would not be very successful. Dirk proved that he can consistently take an average supporting cast far in the playoffs, even making the Finals (that many argue they should have won if it werent for fishy officials)


:lmao

Dirk is not way better than Pippen. You are smoking crack. read what I wrote genius. Dirk might be slightly better than Pippen and is a "borderline" franchise player, but not quite there yet.

Pippen was also never there but his defense, toughness (something that Dirk clearly lacks) make him a better option as a #2 guy on a team over Dirk. Dirk would just take shots away from the #1 guy without giving any help on defense.

[Phillip]

DENIAL

No. Playing with your teeth knocked out isn't soft. Playing with high ankle sprains isn't soft. And not retaliating in a league where you get suspended for simply leaving the area of your bench during an altercation isn't soft... its called self-control and brains.




:lmao

Dirk is not way better than Pippen. You are smoking crack. read what I wrote genius. Dirk might be slightly better than Pippen and is a "borderline" franchise player, but not quite there yet.

a guy who has been averaging around 25 and 9 for his career is far superior to a guy putting up 18 and 6. not to mention Dirk is the one getting doubled and tripled. Pippen lived off of Jordan getting doubled and tripled. When he actually did get the chance to be the #1 guy, he was decent, but was fortunate to play in a fairly weak conference and still wasn't all that successful. Sure, people say he got over 50 wins one year. So? With Jordan, that team was getting 60-70 wins a year. So a 20+ game swing is actually pretty big and nothing to brag about.

Dirk took mediocre talent to the Finals, while Pippen never did crap.


Pippen was also never there but his defense, toughness (something that Dirk clearly lacks) make him a better option as a #2 guy on a team over Dirk. Dirk would just take shots away from the #1 guy without giving any help on defense.

I think the whole #2 thing depends on the build of the team. But to say that Dirk would just take shots away, is crap. First off, he is an incredibly proficent shooter, which is usually a good complement to #1 guys. Second, his offensive presence would make it MUCH tougher to focus so much defensive attention on the #1. Could you imagine a duo of Dirk and Lebron? It might be the best scoring duo the league has ever seen, with Dirk taking either the opposing teams best defender, or their big man out of the middle, making it FAR easier for Lebron to go to work on either a lesser defender, or an open interior.

If you are looking for a guy to be a well rounded player, sure, Pippen is probably your man. But if you are looking for a second superstar... Dirk all day.

Fact is, if Pippen averaged those numbers and didn't get those rings (playing alongside MJ keep in mind), no one would even think about putting him on a top 50 all-time list, maybe not even a top 100, as there are plenty of players in history that could do similar things and put up similar numbers to what Pippen did. Dirk doesn't have to win any rings (and he very well may not), and he is regardless going to be considered a top 50 player when hes done, and one of the best PFs to play the game.

Dirk >>>>>>> Pippen

[Brazil]

Potentially Lebron is >>>>>>>>>> Pippen. If Lebron career stopped now we cannot say Lebron > Pippen on a potential because potentially you can argue mc grady > pippen. Lebron has a lot to do yet.

I'm not sure I'm clear

[Phillip]

oh almost forgot

mcgrady > pippen

[La Peace]

I would take LBJ, McHale, and Dirk over Pippen.

Kevin Garnett?

[LnGrrrR]

Let's see the case for KG

12 all star games (10 consecutive), 8 1st team All-Defense, 2 2nd team All-Defense, 9 time All-NBA (4 on 1st team)

20.2 PPG, 11.1 RPG

MVP, DPOY

Yeah, I feel safe putting him above Pippen.

[Dunc n Dave]

No. Playing with your teeth knocked out isn't soft. Playing with high ankle sprains isn't soft. And not retaliating in a league where you get suspended for simply leaving the area of your bench during an altercation isn't soft... its called self-control and brains.





a guy who has been averaging around 25 and 9 for his career is far superior to a guy putting up 18 and 6. not to mention Dirk is the one getting doubled and tripled. Pippen lived off of Jordan getting doubled and tripled. When he actually did get the chance to be the #1 guy, he was decent, but was fortunate to play in a fairly weak conference and still wasn't all that successful. Sure, people say he got over 50 wins one year. So? With Jordan, that team was getting 60-70 wins a year. So a 20+ game swing is actually pretty big and nothing to brag about.

Dirk took mediocre talent to the Finals, while Pippen never did crap.



I think the whole #2 thing depends on the build of the team. But to say that Dirk would just take shots away, is crap. First off, he is an incredibly proficent shooter, which is usually a good complement to #1 guys. Second, his offensive presence would make it MUCH tougher to focus so much defensive attention on the #1. Could you imagine a duo of Dirk and Lebron? It might be the best scoring duo the league has ever seen, with Dirk taking either the opposing teams best defender, or their big man out of the middle, making it FAR easier for Lebron to go to work on either a lesser defender, or an open interior.

If you are looking for a guy to be a well rounded player, sure, Pippen is probably your man. But if you are looking for a second superstar... Dirk all day.

Fact is, if Pippen averaged those numbers and didn't get those rings (playing alongside MJ keep in mind), no one would even think about putting him on a top 50 all-time list, maybe not even a top 100, as there are plenty of players in history that could do similar things and put up similar numbers to what Pippen did. Dirk doesn't have to win any rings (and he very well may not), and he is regardless going to be considered a top 50 player when hes done, and one of the best PFs to play the game.

Dirk >>>>>>> Pippen

How many All Defensive Teams has Dirk been on? Pippen made it 10 times, 8 times on the 1st Team... Dirk? There's a reason everyone called him _irk early in his career.

Pippen is a 6'8" SF and Dirk is a 6'11" PF. Dirk should be averaging over 10 reb for his career for a guy his size, but he doesn't because he's soft. He also has one of the lowest blocks per game average for guys 6'11" and up.

OFFENSIVELY: Dirk > Pippen
DEFENSIVELY: Dirk <<<<<Pippen

And that is garbage about Dirk taking a "mediocre" cast to the Finals. Dirk has been surrounded by at least 2 or 3 All Star quality players his whole career.

He's had Finley and Nash both young and in their primes, pre 2003.
He had Finley, Nash, and Van Exel in 2003 when the Spurs took them out.
He had Nash, Finley, Antawn Jamison, and Antoine Walker in 2004.
He had Devin Harris, Stackhouse, Terry, and a rookie Josh Howard in 2005-2006.
The Finals team had those same guys on it.
Now he's recently had Kidd, Terry, and Howard.
And he's about to have 4 guys around him again (just like in 2004) with Marion being added.

EVERY SINGLE ONE of those guys I listed above (with the exception of Terry and Devin Harris) have been All Stars in their careers. Harris WILL be an All Star in the next 2 years and Terry was All Star caliber when he came from Atlanta, and has won 6th Man of the Year.

None of those guys qualify as "mediocre."

While Jordan was playing baseball Pippen played the first year with ONE borderline All Star in BJ Armstrong (who only got in off the Bulls 3peat success from the year before), a declining Horace Grant, and a new to the NBA Toni Kukoc when he won 55 games.
The next year Grant split for Orlando and Pippen was playing with Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue, and Ron Harper in the starting lineup with him. Kukoc gave him 15 ppg, and Armstrong 14. The next best scorer they had was Steve Kerr at 8ppg. THAT is a mediocre cast of players. Yet they still made in to teh 2nd round.

[dirk4mvp]

You're sadly misinformed.

[Phillip]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what I'm talking about. May I lick your balls?

[BUMP]

Yet they still made in to teh 2nd round.

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

/sarcasm

[jacobdrj]

Grant Hill?

[LnGrrrR]

Grant Hill?

Hm... interesting idea... off the top of my head I'd say no, but let me check out his stats.

(Note: I give lots of weight to All-NBA teams and the like because they show that the player was considered one of the best that year... if anyone's wondering.)

He tore it up, obviously, as a rookie, winning the Rookie of the Year. He then made six straight! All-NBA teams. However... his production dropped off severely after his injury.

If Hill had never been injured, then yeah, definitely. Maybe we should put Grant Hill (pre-injury) on the charts? :D

[jacobdrj]

Paul Pierce

[LnGrrrR]

Paul Pierce

Even I'm not that much of a homer :D

[Admiral]

I haven't read the whole thread, but had to respond to the person who said they weren't sure if Stockton were better than Pippen. Is that a joke? Stockton is arguably the best point guard ever. Pippen was a good player, for sure, but there is no debating that Stockton was better (although it is admittedly tough to compare players who played different positions).

EDIT: just saw someone actually debating whether Grant Hill is better than Pippen. Wow. This is not even up for debate, as Pippen is light years ahead of Grant Hill.

[ambchang]

I see that Pippen was underrated, as usual. He made some very questionable decisions during his career (migrane, Kukoc incident), and is generally unlikable due to his constant smirk, but he was a great great player.

His offense during his prime was good statistically (pts, assists) with or without Jordan, but his impact was better. He can shoot from outside, can pass with the best of them, directs traffic well, one of the best drivers in the game, one of the best finishers on the break, can score with either hand, can post up. In other words, there is not one thing he can't do on the offensive end.

His defense was legendary. I am ready to put him as one of the best perimeter defenders in the history of the league. Sidney Moncrief, Dennis Johnson, Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, and Scottie Pippen, there are probably a few I have forgotten, but this is a really short list, and Pippen was most definitely in it. He was big enough to guard strong players, quick enough to guard small players, and his wingspan caused major headaches to his man and wreaks havoc in the passing lanes.

You are talking about a pre-injury Grant Hill on offense, and a Bruce Bowen on defense, that was how good he was.

As for comparisons with Stockton, totally different players, but I probably would choose Stockton over Pippen myself as well. Stockton was not as good defensively, but was a better shooter, facilitates an offense even better, and PGs are harder to come by.

[manufor3]

stockton is the greatest point guard of all time. but him on the list.

[LnGrrrR]

I haven't read the whole thread, but had to respond to the person who said they weren't sure if Stockton were better than Pippen. Is that a joke? Stockton is arguably the best point guard ever. Pippen was a good player, for sure, but there is no debating that Stockton was better (although it is admittedly tough to compare players who played different positions).

EDIT: just saw someone actually debating whether Grant Hill is better than Pippen. Wow. This is not even up for debate, as Pippen is light years ahead of Grant Hill.

Hence why I said we could maybe put "pre-injury" Grant Hill in the debate :D

[Dunc n Dave]

...

Nice response... Silence speaks volumes when you know I'm right.

Dirk has never had a "mediocre" cast, and you know it... He's always had other All Star players around him.

Replace Dirk with Duncan on that 2006 Dallas team and the Mavs beat Miami in 5 games. You can't deny it...

[Dunc n Dave]

You're sadly misinformed.

Look it up. All of those guys have been All Stars (except Terry and Harris) and the majority of them were still in their primes when they played for the Mavs.

The Spurs have had only 5 All Stars in the last 15 years (Elliott ONCE, Manu ONCE, Parker, Robinson, and Duncan) and have won 4 championships

Dirk is about to play with his 9th different ALL Star in Marion and hasn't won a thing. He's always been 1 of 3 All Star quality players on his team. Yeah, that's pretty "mediocre." :rolleyes

[z0sa]

Look it up. All of those guys have been All Stars (except Terry and Harris) and the majority of them were still in their primes when they played for the Mavs.

The Spurs have had only 5 All Stars in the last 15 years (Elliott ONCE, Manu ONCE, Parker, Robinson, and Duncan) and have won 4 championships

Dirk is about to play with his 9th different ALL Star in Marion and hasn't won a thing. He's always been 1 of 3 All Star quality players on his team. Yeah, that's pretty "mediocre." :rolleyes

I do agree that the whole "Dirk has never had talent" thing is overblown. He's had remarkable coaches and plenty of talent to get the job done. The problem for a long time was a lack of commitment, both individually and as a team, to defense.

[dirk4mvp]

Nice response... Silence speaks volumes when you know I'm right.

Dirk has never had a "mediocre" cast, and you know it... He's always had other All Star players around him.

Replace Dirk with Duncan on that 2006 Dallas team and the Mavs beat Miami in 5 games. You can't deny it...

Duncan would've held Wade? That's news.

[anakha]

Pippen was highly overrated, and most people cant give you even on highlight of his career after Jordan left the Bulls, and Pippen was in his prime.

In fairness, I'd say Pippen was past his prime as well when Jordan retired in '98.

[LnGrrrR]

Pre-injury Grant Hill was better than Pippen at every aspect of the game, including defense. Pippen was highly overrated, and most people cant give you even on highlight of his career after Jordan left the Bulls, and Pippen was in his prime.

Yeah, but is it fair to put "pre-injury' Grant Hill on the list? I mean, usually I take a player and consider his whole career, but this is almost an exception I think. The dropoff was considerable, and it was an injury, not just that he didn't keep himself in shape or anything.

[Goran Dragic]

He's had remarkable coaches and plenty of talent to get the job done. The problem for a long time was a lack of commitment, both individually and as a team, to defense.

What remarkable coaches has he had?

[LnGrrrR]

Not if Dwhistle was on that Miami team.

Speaking of D-whistle... I'm leaning towards putting him on this list, for offensive firepower mostly. And his ability to draw fouls. :rollin

[Goran Dragic]

Pre-injury Grant Hill was better than Pippen at every aspect of the game, including defense. Pippen was highly overrated, and most people cant give you even on highlight of his career after Jordan left the Bulls, and Pippen was in his prime.


Pippen wasn't in his prime once MJ retired.

[Greg Oden]

:lmao When's the last time Marion was an allstar? you're using that as an example of playing with one?

[Dunc n Dave]

Duncan would've held Wade? That's news.

No, Bowen would have...

[Greg Oden]

What remarkable coaches has he had?

avery johnson was an immaculate coach and he made that baskeeetbawl team play transishun defense.

[Greg Oden]

No, Bowen would have...

You're contradicting yourself, assbag. You said if Duncan was on that Dallas team.

Get your story straight.

[Goran Dragic]

No, Bowen would have...

Fuckass, z0sa said if you replace Duncan with Dirk on the 2006 Mavs, last I checked Bowen wasn't on that team.

[Greg Oden]

Who the fuck does dunc n dave think he is?


Continue eating yogurt out of your boyfriend's ass.

[Dunc n Dave]

:lmao When's the last time Marion was an allstar? you're using that as an example of playing with one?

2 seasons ago...

Marion is still a capable double-double guy who isn't far removed from his last All Star game in 2007. His stats drop off in a half court offense, but he is still an All Star quality player, especially in a run-n-gun system like Phoenix and Dallas this season.

[anakha]

No, Bowen would have...

:lmao

I can't even defend this one.

[Greg Oden]

:lmao

I can't even defend this one.

You didn't know Bowen played for Dallas in 06?

[Goran Dragic]

2 seasons ago...

Marion is still a capable double-double guy who isn't far removed from his last All Star game in 2007. His stats drop off in a half court offense, but he is still an All Star quality player, especially in a run-n-gun system like Phoenix and Dallas this season.


You obviously didn't watch either Suns Spurs series in 2005 or 2007 the way you're glorifying Marion. Marion is a one dimensional player who's only way to score is fast breaks and pick and rolls.

[anakha]

Let me re-phrase that. Most superstars are playing their best ball between 28-32. After that, they take that gradual plunge towards retirement. Pippen on the other hand was a total scrub when he left the Bulls, and he was not old. Just look at his numbers and you'll see.

IIRC, Pippen could barely even play in the '98 playoffs because of his back problems, and I wouldn't be surprised if that hampered him the rest of his career.

[Goran Dragic]

Let me re-phrase that. Most superstars are playing their best ball between 28-32. After that, they take that gradual plunge towards retirement. Pippen on the other hand was a total scrub when he left the Bulls, and he was not old. Just look at his numbers and you'll see.


Pippen was 33 the season after MJ retired. Also keep in mind his career game total would be relatively high at that point given the long seasons he had his entire career.

[Dunc n Dave]

You're contradicting yourself, assbag. You said if Duncan was on that Dallas team.

Get your story straight.

My bad, getting my posters mixed up. I screwed up. Let me start over.

Duncan would provide MUCH better help defense on Wade's drives than Dirk.

When Wade sees Dirk patrolling the paint, he doesn't even blink. Wade sees Duncan and he thinks twice. Even if he doesn't block it, he alters the shot attempt.

And Haslem and Posey may have been able to slow down Dirk, but they would get abused by Duncan in 2006. Mavs + Duncan win in 5 games.

[dirk4mvp]

My bad, getting my posters mixed up. I screwed up. Let me start over.

Duncan would provide MUCH better help defense on Wade's drives than Dirk.

When Wade sees Dirk patrolling the paint, he doesn't even blink. Wade sees Duncan and he thinks twice. Even if he doesn't block it, he alters the shot attempt.

And Haslem and Posey may have been able to slow down Dirk, but they would get abused by Duncan in 2006. Mavs + Duncan win in 5 games.

You keep thinking that in your fairly land.

[ambchang]

Pre-injury Grant Hill was better than Pippen at every aspect of the game, including defense. Pippen was highly overrated, and most people cant give you even on highlight of his career after Jordan left the Bulls, and Pippen was in his prime.

Pippen was All NBA 1st and All D 1st team in 94 and 95, the two years Jordan went play baseball, finishing #3 in MVP voting in 94, and #7 in 95.

Grant Hill was fantastic pre injury, but he was no Pippen, especially on the defensive end.

[LnGrrrR]

Here's an interesting tool as well.... Hall of Fame predictor: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html

[Dunc n Dave]

You obviously didn't watch either Suns Spurs series in 2005 or 2007 the way you're glorifying Marion. Marion is a one dimensional player who's only way to score is fast breaks and pick and rolls.

And what will Dallas have to do to score this year? It ain't gonna be with dominating post play in a half court set...

[Goran Dragic]

And Haslem and Posey may have been able to slow down Dirk, but they would get abused by Duncan in 2006.

You're fuckin stupid to think Haslem and Posey woulda been the ones guarding Duncan.

[Goran Dragic]

And what will Dallas have to do to score this year? It ain't gonna be with dominating post play in a half court set...

What's your point?

[dirk4mvp]

It's obvious dunc n dave stopped watching the playoffs in 06 after Dirk sent his team home.

[Dunc n Dave]

You keep thinking that in your fairly land.

Great response. Lots of info there to back up your opinion...