is manu the best international player of all time?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If the question was which international player has accomplished the most in his career, then you could argue for Manu. But I thought the question was "best player" (meaning most talented).... then that would be a different story.

I guess it depends on your definition of best. I think Manu is incredible, but I don't think he's the best international player to have ever played the game.

But what about also "best in FIBA game".

[Phenomanul]

You must not have seen gold medal game in 2004. Scola led Argentina to the gold medal win over Italy not Manu. I love Manu but let us not make up lies here.

hmmm... you can't get to the Finals to beat a weaker Italian team without knocking out the Favorites... (Team USA)...

Ginobili, led them to that game even if he didn't crank it up a notch in the Final game itself... but against the US, he simply went ballistic... let's not forget his last second game-winning shot earlier in the tournament... He was afterall voted as the tournament's most valuable player...

Another thing, why must all your posts be so belligerent?

[weebo]

You're seriously bringing up the Italian League and Europe? Who fricken cares? The NBA has 75% of the best players in the world. It's like bragging about some Double A minor-league baseball farm club winning the Carolina League. Dirk was already a good NBA player at the age of 21. Manu was a 25 year old rookie and had to continue honing his game until he was ready to play with the big boys. Manu is a borderline All Star, a great #3 option and a good #2 option. Dirk is a franchise player.

On any other team with an all star, dirk would be option 2 maybe 3. DN is nothing more than an offensive player. Plus, he's never won shit and probably never will. :lmao

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

hmmm... you can't get to the Finals to beat a weaker Italian team without knocking out the Favorites... (Team USA)...

Ginobili, led them to that game even if he didn't crank it up a notch in the Final game itself... but against the US, he simply went ballistic... let's not forget his last second game-winning shot earlier in the tournament... He was afterall voted as the tournament's most valuable player...

Another thing, why must all your posts be so belligerent?

You cannot say as some are that "he willed his team to gold by himself"

That is crazy when Scola was the by far best player in the gold medal game. When he has Scola and Nocioni with great tournaments also on his same team.

Some are making it sound like he was on a one man team which is ridiculous.

[Findog]

On any other team with an all star, dirk would be option 2 maybe 3. DN is nothing more than an offensive player. Plus, he's never won shit and probably never will. :lmao

You're a Spurs fan? Have you ever watched Dirk play?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

hmmm... you can't get to the Finals to beat a weaker Italian team without knocking out the Favorites... (Team USA)...

Ginobili, led them to that game even if he didn't crank it up a notch in the Final game itself... but against the US, he simply went ballistic... let's not forget his last second game-winning shot earlier in the tournament... He was afterall voted as the tournament's most valuable player...

Another thing, why must all your posts be so belligerent?

Also you forget something...........Italy was not the weaker team. Italy ALREADY defeated Team USA before Argentina did.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

On any other team with an all star, dirk would be option 2 maybe 3.

I hope this is a joke.

[weebo]

You're a Spurs fan? Have you ever watched Dirk play?

Manu is the only player to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA title. Can you say that about the mighty dirk?

And yes I have watched dirk play, many a time actually. I do believe that his offensive skill is so much greater than Manu's but there is more to the game of basketball than filling up a stat sheet with points.

If dirk had any semblance of adequate defense and leadership, I would rank him higher than Manu. However, offense alone and one mvp (which could have easily gone to kobe) doesn't trump Manu's entire body of work and skill set.

I know you get defensive when people are dumping on your guy, but facts are facts. Manu just by what his teams have done and what he has contributed to those championship teams make him better than dirk.

[weebo]

I hope this is a joke.

The only joke around here is you. Until dirk proves than he can lead a team to a championship as the number one banana, he'll be just another good player that couldn't get it done.

[Findog]

Manu is the only player to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA title. Can you say that about the mighty dirk?

1) Dirk was a good NBA player by the time he was 21. Manu didn't make his NBA debut till he was 25 while he honed his game in Europe. I could care less about what Alex Rodriguez, Vladimir Guerrero or Albert Pujols did in Double A or what minor league hardware they picked up along the way. I'm not impressed one bit by his Italian League bullshit or that he won a Gold Medal. If Dirk had played in Europe till he was 25, he'd had plenty of bling too.

2) Manu played on stacked Argentine squads in FIBA play while Dirk was surrounded by total scrubs on Germany. Who cares about Olympic play?

3) When Manu is the best player on a championship team, then I'll concede he's better than Dirk. Until then, he has one less Finals appearance as a #1 guy.


And yes I have watched dirk play, many a time actually. I do believe that his offensive skill is so much greater than Manu's but there is more to the game of basketball than filling up a stat sheet with points.

Dirk rebounds well for a PF and is a decent defender. He's also a matchup nightmare that creates opportunities for his teammates.


If dirk had any semblance of adequate defense and leadership, I would rank him higher than Manu.

Well, it's obvious now that you must follow the Spurs through box scores only. Dirk has worked himself into an adequate defender under Avery, and he's led his team to more success as a #1 guy than Manu has. If Manu is your best player, you're scrapping for that 8th seed. Dirk was the best player on a team that came within an inch of winning a title. You're not very good at this, are you?


However, offense alone and one mvp (which could have easily gone to kobe) doesn't trump Manu's entire body of work and skill set.

Exactly. Dirk has much more team success as a franchise player than Manu does. It's like saying Horry or Michael Doleac > Dirk based on their rings. Horry is a role player; Dirk is a franchise player. Doleac is an end of the bench player; Dirk is a franchise player. Manu is a borderline All Star; Dirk is a franchise player. Is any of this sinking in for you?


I know you get defensive when people are dumping on your guy, but facts are facts.


I'm not getting defensive, I'm just shredding your arguments.


Manu just by what his teams have done and what he has contributed to those championship teams make him better than dirk.

So Double A baseball championships trump World Series appearances. Got it.

[Phenomanul]

You're seriously bringing up the Italian League and Europe? Who fricken cares? The NBA has 75% of the best players in the world. It's like bragging about some Double A minor-league baseball farm club winning the Carolina League. Dirk was already a good NBA player at the age of 21. Manu was a 25 year old rookie and had to continue honing his game until he was ready to play with the big boys. Manu is a borderline All Star, a great #3 option and a good #2 option. Dirk is a franchise player.

Manu could have come to the NBA sooner... if it took him that long to make the "jump" it was partly a matter of choice but mostly because outside of Pepe Sanchez, Argentinians were considered "unknown" quantities by NBA executives... no one in the US ever bothered to scout Argentina as a 'potential' basketball powerhouse... But Manu was able to prove to the Spurs that he belonged with the World's best simply by doing what he does best... WIN... after only one year, the NBA took notice.

In fact, Manu's efforts were transcendent in that it opened the door so that other Argentinians could also come to the NBA... that was no coincidence...

Ginobili made an instant impact on the Spurs despite a lack of minutes (and because he was recovering from a serious injury imparted by Nowitzki's team, no less) but mostly because he had to earn Popovich's trust... Nevertheless, Pop is on record stating that it was he who had to adapt to Ginobili's game, and not the other way around; that "the leash he had placed on Ginobili was too short"... that he had erred with respect to letting him come on to his own.

Ginobili, much like Scola, could have come into the league years before they actually did... Again, you are holding another hypothetical against him... Ginobili simply played the hand that was dealt to him.... but he won nonetheless.

I shudder to think what would've happenned if Ginobili had made the jump to the NBA in 2001. The Lakers wouldn't have swept the Spurs that season, when Derek Anderson was mauled by a dirty Maverick (sorry couldn't resist).

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

On any other team with an all star, dirk would be option 2 maybe 3.Who knew league MVP awards were just handed to 2nd and 3rd options nowadays?

[Findog]

Manu could have come to the NBA sooner... if it took him that long to make the "jump" it was partly a matter of choice but mostly because outside of Pepe Sanchez, Argentinians were considered "unknown" quantities by NBA executives... no one in the US ever bothered to scout Argentina as a 'potential' basketball powerhouse... But Manu was able to prove to the Spurs that he belonged with the World's best simply by doing what he does best... WIN... after only one year, the NBA took notice.


Whatever. Dirk was taken 9th overall as an 18 year old and the Mavericks did not want to let him season up in Europe. Manu was like the next to last pick of the entire draft...and if he had shown what Dirk had, not only would he have gone much higher, but Popovich would've been on the first plane to Argentina to convince him to come to the NBA and buy him out from whatever obligation he had in Europe.

[weebo]

Who knew league MVP awards were just handed to 2nd and 3rd options nowadays?

If Duncan were his teammate, or Shaq in his day, or Kobe, or Lebron, would you consider DN the first option??? I sure as hell wouldn't. The guy is a 7 foot shooting guard, with little play making ability. That was my point.

[GetNashty]

Ummm, Hello guys, Steve Nash is the best. Obviously.

:downspin:

:toast

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

If Duncan were his teammate, or Shaq in his day, or Kobe, or Lebron, would you consider DN the first option??? I sure as hell wouldn't. The guy is a 7 foot shooting guard, with little play making ability. That was my point.

Well then I guess that means there's only 4 first options in the entire league, because no one in hell would be moved ahead of those guys. Who knew the Celtics won the 08 championship without a first option? Or the Heat. Or the Pistons.

[Findog]

If Duncan were his teammate, or Shaq in his day, or Kobe, or Lebron, would you consider DN the first option??? I sure as hell wouldn't. The guy is a 7 foot shooting guard, with little play making ability. That was my point.

Find anybody in this thread who says Dirk is better than those guys. Those are ALL franchise players. Dirk is still a Top 10 player. At worst there are 20 teams that don't have a player as good as him.

[Phenomanul]

Whatever. Dirk was taken 9th overall as an 18 year old and the Mavericks did not want to let him season up in Europe. Manu was like the next to last pick of the entire draft...and if he had shown what Dirk had, not only would he have gone much higher, but Popovich would've been on the first plane to Argentina to convince him to come to the NBA and buy him out from whatever obligation he had in Europe.

Dirk is a seven footer... if you don't understand the significance of that difference, and how it impacts the NBA draft... then you don't know much about the draft process... By NBA standards Olowakandi, Swift, Bynum and most other seven footers have always been sought after commodities... (see Thabeet). The jury is still out on Oden. 6'-7" guards, on the other hand, are a dime in a dozen. And maybe this hasn't really sunk... But Ginobili is from Argentina... the fact that he was drafted at all, is a testament that he was turning "heads"... (a fortunate flip of a coin made sure of that).

That is significant because "Argentina" and "basketball" were probably two words you never heard together in a draft room prior to Manu's arrival to the league... after 2003, that was no longer the case. As for Pepe Sanchez, he wasn't a completely unknown commodity because he played at Temple.

I could care less what Ginobili's draft position was... He was the "guinea pig" player that opened the floodgates for his fellow countrymen to even be considered... Your argument against his age and when he entered the league holds very little worth... again, Manu simply played the hand that was dealt to him...

Manu had to prove to the NBA that he belonged... check out his clips in the Italian league... he was quicker, and far more athletic than at any point in his NBA career.

He's always been gifted with that unorthodox style that is unique only to him... and a playmaking ability that few can surpass...

[Findog]

Dirk is a seven footer... if you don't understand the significance of that difference, and how it impacts the NBA draft...

You're unintentionally making my argument for me. Dirk was gifted and big. Manu was not as tall and came across as a project. The fact that Dirk's height has a great deal to do with his dominance (high-release point on jumper) is irrelevant. He is better, period.

[Phenomanul]

You're unintentionally making my argument for me. Dirk was gifted and big. Manu was not as tall and came across as a project. The fact that Dirk's height has a great deal to do with his dominance (high-release point on jumper) is irrelevant. He is better, period.

No... way to side-step the argument altogether...

You're the one holding the circumstances of Ginobili's arrival to the league against him... not me.

By your standards the choice to select Michael Olowokandi as the No. 1 overall pick of his draft class was justified simply based on his height and potential talent. "High" draft busts are far more common than draft gems selected 57th overall. Ginobili was the steal of the decade.

BTW I always felt that Jordan made a huge mistake as GM for the Wizards when he passed over Pau Gasol in order to take Kwame Brown. Why was Gasol passed over? 'Cause much like Argentinians, Spaniards were completely unknown commodities as far as basketball decisions were concerned. The only difference was that Gasol was a legit seven footer... And unlike Dirk, Pau garnered ROY honors.

[Findog]

By your standards the choice to select Michael Olowokandi as the No. 1 overall pick of his draft class was justified simply based on his height and potential talent. "High" draft busts are far more common than draft gems selected 57th overall. Ginobili was the steal of the decade.

Clippers. Enough said.


he only difference was that Gasol was a legit seven footer... And unlike Dirk, Pau garnered ROY honors.

So? Dirk is a better player. He kicked Pau's teeth in the only time they met in the playoffs. And that was a 50-win team with a lot of good players that Gasol was surrounded with.

[Phenomanul]

You're unintentionally making my argument for me. Dirk was gifted and big. Manu was not as tall and came across as a project. The fact that Dirk's height has a great deal to do with his dominance (high-release point on jumper) is irrelevant. He is better, period.

A decision which Popovich is on record as having lamented. FACT

[Phenomanul]

Clippers. Enough said.



So? Dirk is a better player. He kicked Pau's teeth in the only time they met in the playoffs. And that was a 50-win team with a lot of good players that Gasol was surrounded with.

The Grizzlies. Enough said.

Try to keep up. :wakeup

[anakha]

And unlike Dirk, Pau garnered ROY honors.

Bad basis of comparison.

That was because Gasol came into the league a lot more polished than Dirk. Doesn't necessarily mean he's the better player overall.

[anakha]

The Grizzlies. Enough said.

Try to keep up. :wakeup

Again, bad basis of comparison.

Those Grizzlies were nowhere near the pathetic excuse of a team they are nowadays.

[Findog]

The Grizzlies. Enough said.



You're a fucking dumbass:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2006.html

Fifth seed in a tough Western Conference.

[Phenomanul]

Look Findog... this is all subjective anyway...

No one's convincing the other of anything...

Dirk would have made an excellent Spur playing second fiddle to Duncan. But I'm not too sure the league would have allowed the Spurs to win so many consecutive Championships... they probably would have outlawed seven footers from taking three pointers... or some other silly rubbish.

Like allowing players to defy the laws of physics in a critical swing game. Or awarding the opposing team, a notorious "jump-shooting" team, 49 free throws in a game...

Players like Dirk and Manu are certainly one of a kind.

[Phenomanul]

Bad basis of comparison.

That was because Gasol came into the league a lot more polished than Dirk. Doesn't necessarily mean he's the better player overall.

That wasn't my argument. I was simply taking a jab at Dirk. And at the notion that Dirk was NBA ready the moment he was drafted.

[Phenomanul]

Again, bad basis of comparison.

Those Grizzlies were nowhere near the pathetic excuse of a team they are nowadays.

They've yet to win a playoff game... or have they obtained that elusive first victory???

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

1) Dirk was a good NBA player by the time he was 21. Manu didn't make his NBA debut till he was 25 while he honed his game in Europe. I could care less about what Alex Rodriguez, Vladimir Guerrero or Albert Pujols did in Double A or what minor league hardware they picked up along the way. I'm not impressed one bit by his Italian League bullshit or that he won a Gold Medal. If Dirk had played in Europe till he was 25, he'd had plenty of bling too.

You are a real moron.

[Findog]

That wasn't my argument. I was simply taking a jab at Dirk. And at the notion that Dirk was NBA ready the moment he was drafted.

He was a lot more polished than Manu, which is the two guys I was comparing.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Ummm, Hello guys, Steve Nash is the best. Obviously.

:downspin:

:toast

Definitely the best shooter and passer.

[Rogue]

No... way to side-step the argument altogether...

You're the one holding the circumstances of Ginobili's arrival to the league against him... not me.

By your standards the choice to select Michael Olowokandi as the No. 1 overall pick of his draft class was justified simply based on his height and potential talent. "High" draft busts are far more common than draft gems selected 57th overall. Ginobili was the steal of the decade.

BTW I always felt that Jordan made a huge mistake as GM for the Wizards when he passed over Pau Gasol in order to take Kwame Brown. Why was Gasol passed over? 'Cause much like Argentinians, Spaniards were completely unknown commodities as far as basketball decisions were concerned. The only difference was that Gasol was a legit seven footer... And unlike Dirk, Pau garnered ROY honors.
Dirk was drafted in 98 pool which also featured some local American potentials like Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, etc... While Gasol was almost invincible for the ROY in 02 as the 01 draftees were either overrated players like Olowokandi or some real talent buried at the edge of the draft pool like Tony Longoria.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Manu is the only player to win the Euroleague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA title.


That is false.

[ElNono]

That is false.

Who is the other one? And are you sure it was the NBA and not the ABA back then?

[Findog]

You are a real moron.

Thanks, Indazone.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Who is the other one? And are you sure it was the NBA and not the ABA back then?

In Euroleague website when they select 50 anniversary team it was stated clearly that he was the second player to do that.

[Phenomanul]

He was a lot more polished than Manu, which is the two guys I was comparing.

There is no way to know for sure... it's all circumstantial... and that's the point I've been trying to pass along from the moment you tried to hold Manu's draft position and entry-age against him.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Thanks, Indazone.

:lmao:lol:nope:blah:ihit:rolleyes

[Typhoon]

Hell yes he's the motherfucking best.

[Phenomanul]

Dirk was drafted in 98 pool which also featured some local American potentials like Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, etc... While Gasol was almost invincible for the ROY in 02 as the 01 draftees were either overrated players like Olowokandi or some real talent buried at the edge of the draft pool like Tony Longoria.

LOL at Maverick fans getting their panties in a wad over the mere comparison of Gasol and Dirk's rookie seasons....

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

There is no way to know for sure... it's all circumstantial... and that's the point I've been trying to pass along from the moment you tried to hold Manu's draft position and entry-age against him.

IGNORE that fool. In Europe at the same time Manu was 10 times the player Dirk was. His comments would get him laughed off of any European sports forum.

[Findog]

IGNORE that fool. In Europe at the same time Manu was 10 times the player Dirk was. His comments would get him laughed off of any European sports forum.

Dirk was too good for Europe, Indazone. It's like saying that some guy who put up better numbers at Triple A than Alex Rodriguez does in the majors is the better player.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Dirk was too good for Europe, Indazone. It's like saying that some guy who put up better numbers at Triple A than Alex Rodriguez does in the majors is the better player.

Are you really this stupid? IN the SAME YEARS they both played in Europe. Dirk was a complete nobody and Manu was one of the better players in Europe. Certainly not the best by any means, but one of the best. Dirk was not even important.

[urunobili]

Manu will always be the best... in MY heart at least...

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Who is the other one? And are you sure it was the NBA and not the ABA back then?

This is it.

Manu =

Olympic gold medal
Euroleague championship
3 NBA championships

Bill Bradley =

Olympic gold medal
Euroleague championship
2 NBA championships

So Manu is not the only one to that and not the first. However he has one more NBA championship than Bradley.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Dirk was too good for Europe, Indazone. It's like saying that some guy who put up better numbers at Triple A than Alex Rodriguez does in the majors is the better player.

You live in a fantasy world where the Euroleague = "Triple AAA minors"

You really need to STFU

[Findog]

Are you really this stupid? IN the SAME YEARS they both played in Europe. Dirk was a complete nobody and Manu was one of the better players in Europe. Certainly not the best by any means, but one of the best. Dirk was not even important.

Dirk is a better player than Manu Indazone, and made a bigger impact at the NBA level while Manu was playing against lesser competition. You couldn't be more profoundly wrong, Indazone.

[Findog]

You live in a fantasy world where the Euroleague = "Triple AAA minors"

You really need to STFU

The NBA has 75-80% of the world's best players, Indazone. Deal with it.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

The NBA has 75-80% of the world's best players, Indazone. Deal with it.

Your statements are ignorant, ridiculous, and absurd. It is really beyond laughable what you are saying here. 75-80 percent od world's best players???????

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Phenomanul]

Let me rephrase... Dirk entered the league early because he was a talented jumpshooting seven footer.

Saying that Manu was unqualified to enter the league in that timeframe had less to do with Ginobili's actual talent level than with the fact that he was perceived as an unproven quantity... He had to win to show them otherwise.

[Findog]

Your statements are ignorant, ridiculous, and absurd. It is really beyond laughable what you are saying here. 75-80 percent od world's best players???????

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

I forgot who I'm talking to. Indazone's Euro-hyping troll.

[ElNono]

In Euroleague website when they select 50 anniversary team it was stated clearly that he was the second player to do that.

Bill Bradley won the Euroleague's predecessor, the European Champions Cup, in 1965-66. There was no Euroleague back then. So the previous statement is factually correct.

[ElNono]

This is it.

Bill Bradley =

Olympic gold medal
Euroleague championship
2 NBA championships

So Manu is not the only one to that and not the first. However he has one more NBA championship than Bradley.

The Euroleague did not exist in 1965-66.

[Findog]

Does KPB think spanoulis > Dirk?

Of course Indazone does.

[Spursox]

Andrew Gaze

[Knoxxx]

Manu > defender, passer, and ball handler
Nodickski > scorer and rebounder

Manu played fewer minutes on better NBA teams so his PPG average really doesn't capture his more diverse offensive capabilities of driving, drawing fouls, and versatility.

Manu is just a warrior and a winner. While his stats are solid, they don't fully capture what he brings to the team. I think Dirk is a great guy but soft in my book and I'd not rather have had him on the Spurs by any stretch.

[lefty]

Diridas Ginobonis

[anakha]

They've yet to win a playoff game... or have they obtained that elusive first victory???

So? The Grizzlies then were still a hell of a lot better then they are now.

[anakha]

The Euroleague did not exist in 1965-66.

It was founded in 1957, IIRC.

[Phenomanul]

So? The Grizzlies then were still a hell of a lot better then they are now.

That wasn't my point... I was throwing back his dismissiveness of an entire franshise [Clippers] by using his exact same words... all the while he sideskirted the implication of his initial comment as I questioned whether or not Olowokandi's draft position was justified...

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Bill Bradley won the Euroleague's predecessor, the European Champions Cup, in 1965-66. There was no Euroleague back then. So the previous statement is factually correct.

Bull shit. The Euroleague and the Champions Cup is the same thing idiot.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

The Euroleague did not exist in 1965-66.

You are a real moron.

Euroleague existed starting in 1957 dumb ass. It changed names several times and twice changes who owned it. It is the SAME league idiot.

[dirk4mvp]

let us stop insults please.

[Rogue]

That wasn't my point... I was throwing back his dismissiveness of an entire franshise [Clippers] by using his exact same words... all the while he sideskirted the implication of his initial comment as I questioned whether or not Olowokandi's draft position was justified...
the draft rank doesn't mean crap when it comes to the capabilities of a player, even from the rear parts of first round and second round can jump out some decent draftees sometimes like Manu and TL, as well as Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Josh Howard, etc... So it's also reasonable that some draftees with high picks are not granted to live up to expectations, sometimes even No.1 draftees may turn out to be craps, Kwame Brown and Yao for examples.

[Rogue]

You are a real moron.

Euroleague existed starting in 1957 dumb ass. It changed names several times and twice changes who owned it. It is the SAME league idiot.
Exactly, Euroleague existed starting in 1957 dumb ass, though I have no idea where the 1957 dumbass is located. I'm just pretty sure KBP never makes any mistake, at least he thinks so.

[Findog]

That wasn't my point... I was throwing back his dismissiveness of an entire franshise [Clippers] by using his exact same words... all the while he sideskirted the implication of his initial comment as I questioned whether or not Olowokandi's draft position was justified...

Hell no his draft position wasn't justified.

[Rogue]

Bull shit. The Euroleague and the Champions Cup is the same thing idiot.
La euroleague y el champions cuppa eras la uno idiota, Vd correcto.

[ElNono]

You are a real moron.

Euroleague existed starting in 1957 dumb ass. It changed names several times and twice changes who owned it. It is the SAME league idiot.

Was it called 'Euroleague' in 1965?
Simple question, Yes or No.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Was it called 'Euroleague' in 1965?
Simple question, Yes or No.

http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/main

Read it and STFU

[ElNono]

http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/main

Read it and STFU

Answer the question. Yes or No?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Answer the question. Yes or No?

Are you retarded?

Go here:

http://www.euroleague.net/history/50-years/main

click where it says EUROLEAGUE HISTORY THROUGH THE DECADES
LIST OF CHAMPS
· Champions: 1958 to 2008


that will bring you here

http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/11836/180/item

notice where it says European club champions: 1958-2008


Stop embarrasing yourself.




I do not know where some Spurs fans are getting this info that Manu was the only player to win NBA, Euroleague, and Olympics but it is certainly wrong information.

[anakha]

Was it called 'Euroleague' in 1965?
Simple question, Yes or No.

As much as I hate to be on the same side as KBP in an argument, if you're arguing that Bradley's achievement was different because the league was named differently then, you'd be wrong.

The Minneapolis Lakers won their titles in the BAA, yet are recognized as former champions by the NBA, which was formed after the BAA and NBL merged. That being the case, given that the league Bradley won his championship in is the same league existing now under a different name, he should indeed be recognized as a former Euroleague champion.

[Rogue]

Answer the question. Yes or No?
jajaja KBP es idiota que no tamberis mierda de tu quescion. jajajajaja :lmao

[DAF86]

As much as I hate to be on the same side as KBP in an argument, if you're arguing that Bradley's achievement was different because the league was named differently then, you'd be wrong.

The Minneapolis Lakers won their titles in the BAA, yet are recognized as former champions by the NBA, which was formed after the BAA and NBL merged. That being the case, given that the league Bradley won his championship in is the same league existing now under a different name, he should indeed be recognized as a former Euroleague champion.

That's true, but the achievement could be different. Did Bradley won the Erouleague's MVP, Olympics' MVP and came one vote short of beign NBA finals MVP?

I really don't know. Did he won the MVP of any of those tournaments?

[anakha]

That's true, but the achievement could be different. Did Bradley won the Erouleague's MVP, Olympics' MVP and came one vote short of beign NBA finals MVP?

I really don't know. Did he won the MVP of any of those tournaments?

Was that the original argument?

The only statement put forward previously was that Manu was the first person to win Euroleague, Olympic and NBA titles.

Sure, if you change the topic to cover MVPs, then Manu may indeed be the first person to do so. But that doesn't make the original statement any less wrong.

[ElNono]

Are you retarded?
Stop embarrasing yourself.

You still didn't answer the question, Gyro. You like to preach how much you know about the history of Europe basketball, well, here's your chance to shine: Was it called 'Euroleague' in 1965-66? Yes or No.


I do not know where some Spurs fans are getting this info that Manu was the only player to win NBA, Euroleague, and Olympics but it is certainly wrong information.

Bradley didn't win the Euroleague.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

That's true, but the achievement could be different. Did Bradley won the Erouleague's MVP, Olympics' MVP and came one vote short of beign NBA finals MVP?

I really don't know. Did he won the MVP of any of those tournaments?

He is not list in NBA finals MVP and neither is Manu. So neither of them have this.

As far as I know Olympics only had MVP award in 2004. None of the other Olympics ever had MVP award as far as I remember that was the first time and in 2008 the award was canceled. So I am not sure how to credit this. Also there was 2 MVP awards.

2004 Olympics had MVP award and Final MVP. Scola was final MVP. So there is only just those 2 in history of Olympics. So is hard for anyone else to have won the award because only players that were in 2004 games had the chance.

Euroleague did not have a MVP award in 1966. First time MVP award existed in Euroleague was in 1988 when they created Final Four for first time. When Manu won MVP of Final Four in 2001 there was 2 awards and so it is asterisk.

Half of the teams did not play in Euroleague that year, actually the two best teams of Europe then in that era was Maccabi and PAO and they both were not in the league. So Manu's Euroleague championship and MVP in Final Four is actually an asterisk title and MVP. Only time in history that half the league did not play.

I am not taking away from Manu's great accomplishments there but obviously NBA fans have exaggerated a lot of stuff about some of that.

[Admiral]

Sabonis is probably the most talented international basketball player, but most Americans did not get to see him during his prime. Still, he had some solid years in the NBA.

Although most here won't like my saying it, I don't see how Manu could be ranked ahead of Dirk Nowitzki. This isn't even close, guys.

Toni Kukoc came into the league with a lot of hype, and was obviously good in Europe, but I'm not convinced that he would be ahead of Manu. I give Manu the slight edge on this one.

[DAF86]

Was that the original argument?

The only statement put forward previously was that Manu was the first person to win Euroleague, Olympic and NBA titles.

Sure, if you change the topic to cover MVPs, then Manu may indeed be the first person to do so. But that doesn't make the original statement any less wrong.

I don't know and I don't care what ElNono and KBP are arguing about, I just want to know if Bradley won the MVP of any of those tournaments, 'cause I'm looking the information and I can't find it, so if somebody knows and shares the knolowdge I'd appreciate it.

[ElNono]

Was that the original argument?

The only statement put forward previously was that Manu was the first person to win Euroleague, Olympic and NBA titles.

Sure, if you change the topic to cover MVPs, then Manu may indeed be the first person to do so. But that doesn't make the original statement any less wrong.

How many NBA championships the Lakers have won? Do you count the ABA championships when posed with that question?
The Euroleague is no different. It changed names, formats, ownership and everything else throughout the years. It was a different league back then, and had a different name. Back then it was the most prestigious Euro title, not so today.
For all intents and purposes the two leagues are simply not the same.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You still didn't answer the question, Gyro. You like to preach how much you know about the history of Europe basketball, well, here's your chance to shine: Was it called 'Euroleague' in 1965-66? Yes or No.



Bradley didn't win the Euroleague.

You are a moron. Euroleague's OWN WEBSITE:

http://www.euroleague.net/history

Notice it is called Euroleague.net and history on the web address?

Notice it says at the page "The Euroleague History Archive"

Notice on the right it says "Through The Decades"

The Fifties
The Sixties
The Seventies
The Eighties
The Nineties



You are just dumb. I guess according to you if tomorrow the NBA changes the name or someone besides Stern and them take over then according to you officially the Spurs will have "never won any championships" So then you can erase Manu from this list because no more championships with the Spurs then either.:rolleyes

Stop being a dumb ass.

[DAF86]

He is not list in NBA finals MVP and neither is Manu. So neither of them have this.

As far as I know Olympics only had MVP award in 2004. None of the other Olympics ever had MVP award as far as I remember that was the first time and in 2008 the award was canceled. So I am not sure how to credit this. Also there was 2 MVP awards.

2004 Olympics had MVP award and Final MVP. Scola was final MVP. So there is only just those 2 in history of Olympics. So is hard for anyone else to have won the award because only players that were in 2004 games had the chance.

Euroleague did not have a MVP award in 1966. First time MVP award existed in Euroleague was in 1988 when they created Final Four for first time. When Manu won MVP of Final Four in 2001 there was 2 awards and so it is asterisk.

Half of the teams did not play in Euroleague that year, actually the two best teams of Europe then in that era was Maccabi and PAO and they both were not in the league. So Manu's Euroleague championship and MVP in Final Four is actually an asterisk title and MVP. Only time in history that half the league did not play.

I am not taking away from Manu's great accomplishments there but obviously NBA fans have exaggerated a lot of stuff about some of that.

Thanks.

[MmP]

To me it's stupid to put an asterisk on Manu's Euro MVP and Olympics MVP cause it was the first time. Maybe Im getting u wrong, but that doesn't underrated anything. It means Manu was the best of that tournament, it doesn't matter that theres an award in the middle, or that some teams were out of the tournament. Anybody who watched that tournaments knows that by far he was the best player of it. Same as the euroleague of 2001.

It's the same thing to put an asterik saying that Spurs won 2007 cause the Pho series was tainted with Amare not playing in game 5. Spurs won, and that's only what matters and nobody can downgrade it. It's a title, either Amere played or not doesn't matter. Manu was the best of 2004 olympics, over TD, Lebron, Bodiroga and many more. So why use those conditionals?

Just my opinion.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I don't know and I don't care what ElNono and KBP are arguing about, I just want to know if Bradley won the MVP of any of those tournaments, 'cause I'm looking the information and I can't find it, so if somebody knows and shares the knolowdge I'd appreciate it.

I told you.

Euroleague did not have a MVP award until 1988.

Olympics only had MVP awards in 2004. Never before and it was removed also for 2008.

Scola was final MVP and Manu tournament MVP. No other Olympics has MVP awards.

So when Bradley played in Olympics and Euroleague there was no MVP award. Hope that helps.

[anakha]

I don't know and I don't care what ElNono and KBP are arguing about, I just want to know if Bradley won the MVP of any of those tournaments, 'cause I'm looking the information and I can't find it, so if somebody knows and shares the knolowdge I'd appreciate it.

Good luck finding those, then.

I don't think MVP awards were being given out in that time.

[anakha]

How many NBA championships the Lakers have won? Do you count the ABA championships when posed with that question?
The Euroleague is no different. It changed names, formats, ownership and everything else throughout the years. It was a different league back then, and had a different name. Back then it was the most prestigious Euro title, not so today.
For all intents and purposes the two leagues are simply not the same.

Yes, the NBA counts the Lakers' Minneapolis titles while that team was part of the BAA.

So your argument holds no water.

[DAF86]

Good luck finding those, then.

I don't think MVP awards were being given out in that time.

That's why I couldn't find it :lol

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

To me it's stupid to put an asterisk on Manu's Euro MVP and Olympics MVP cause it was the first time. Maybe Im getting u wrong, but that doesn't underrated anything. It means Manu was the best of that tournament, it doesn't matter that theres an award in the middle, anybody who watched that tournaments knows that by far he was the best player of it. Same as the euroleague of 2001.

In over 50 years of time Manu's Euroleague title and MVP was the only one where all the clubs were not in the League. Think if half the NBA teams boycotted the league next season. Yes there is an asterisk there.

Also the Olympics MVP was not the first it was actually the only one, even in 2008 the award was removed. So of course Manu's accomplishments are amazing but it is a little bit funny to say "well he is the ONLY one to do such and such" when actually some of these things were not even possible for others.

Olympic MVP would not be such a unique accomplishment if every Olympics instead of just one had the award. Sure it is wonderful to be champion of world and MVP by winning Olympics but the MVP thing is like almost not important since no other time they gave one.

[ElNono]

You are a moron.

There's no need to insult me. Just answer the question. Yes or No.


You are just dumb. I guess according to you if tomorrow the NBA changes the name or someone besides Stern and them take over then according to you officially the Spurs will have "never won any championships" So then you can erase Manu from this list because no more championships with the Spurs then either.:rolleyes

Stop being a dumb ass.

What's dumb about it? If the NBA would be renamed to the KBP league tomorrow, both Manu and the Spurs would have exactly zero KBP titles. It's actually logical.
Nobody is claiming Bradley didn't win that Euro championship. He just didn't win the Euroleague.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

How many NBA championships the Lakers have won? Do you count the ABA championships when posed with that question?
The Euroleague is no different. It changed names, formats, ownership and everything else throughout the years. It was a different league back then, and had a different name. Back then it was the most prestigious Euro title, not so today.
For all intents and purposes the two leagues are simply not the same.

WTF? Lakers never played in ABA.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

It changed names, formats, ownership and everything else throughout the years. It was a different league back then, and had a different name. Back then it was the most prestigious Euro title, not so today.
For all intents and purposes the two leagues are simply not the same.

You are just an idiot. WTF is this "different league" shit? It is the SAME league idiot.

[DAF86]

In over 50 years of time Manu's Euroleague title and MVP was the only one where all the clubs were not in the League. Think if half the NBA teams boycotted the league next season. Yes there is an asterisk there.

Also the Olympics MVP was not the first it was actually the only one, even in 2008 the award was removed. So of course Manu's accomplishments are amazing but it is a little bit funny to say "well he is the ONLY one to do such and such" when actually some of these things were not even possible for others.

Olympic MVP would not be such a unique accomplishment if every Olympics instead of just one had the award. Sure it is wonderful to be champion of world and MVP by winning Olympics but the MVP thing is like almost not important since no other time they gave one.

That Kinder Bologna team was the best of Europe that year, they would have won it either way.

And I didn't know about the MVP thing on the olympics, in fact I think I read of some players that got MVP distinction on the Olympics but I guess I may have missread that.

[anakha]

If the NBA would be renamed to the KBP league tomorrow, both Manu and the Spurs would have exactly zero KBP titles. It's actually logical.

That would only be true in that scenario if the KBP league itself did not recognize any of the previous championships at all.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

It's the same thing to put an asterik saying that Spurs won 2007 cause the Pho series was tainted with Amare not playing in game 5. Spurs won, and that's only what matters and nobody can downgrade it. It's a title, either Amere played or not doesn't matter. Manu was the best of 2004 olympics, over TD, Lebron, Bodiroga and many more. So why use those conditionals?

Just my opinion.

Maybe I am not being clear. There was 2 MVPs and 2 champions the year Manu was champion and MVP.

So yes it is officially a asterisk. I mean it is listed officially even that way.

[ElNono]

WTF? Lakers never played in ABA.

I meant the NBL...

[anakha]

i meant the nbl...

BAA, not NBL.

Edit: Just double-checked my history. My mistake. Carry on.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

That's why I couldn't find it :lol

If this helps you can see the Euroleague started in 1988

http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/11836/180/item

As you can see no award until 1988 year when they began the Final Four. Also once again you can see El Nono is an idiot.

[ElNono]

You are just an idiot. WTF is this "different league" shit? It is the SAME league idiot.

Did the Final Four exist in 1965? Yes or No.
Did the MVP award exist in 1965? Yes or No.
Did the ownership of the league remained the same since 1965? Yes or No.
Did the name remained the same since 1965? Yes or No.

Stop dodging the questions. Answer.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

There's no need to insult me. Just answer the question. Yes or No.



What's dumb about it? If the NBA would be renamed to the KBP league tomorrow, both Manu and the Spurs would have exactly zero KBP titles. It's actually logical.
Nobody is claiming Bradley didn't win that Euro championship. He just didn't win the Euroleague.

So the myth he was only person to win all started with you I guess then?

[Rogue]

If this helps you can see the Euroleague started in 1988

http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/11836/180/item

As you can see no award until 1988 year when they began the Final Four. Also once again you can see El Nono is an idiot.
The idiot calling ElNono an idiot is actually the real idiot.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

That Kinder Bologna team was the best of Europe that year, they would have won it either way.

And I didn't know about the MVP thing on the olympics, in fact I think I read of some players that got MVP distinction on the Olympics but I guess I may have missread that.

In Greece they made it just for there. I guess I could be wrong but pretty sure it was just Greece that gave the MVP. If not who was MVP in China?

[ElNono]

If this helps you can see the Euroleague started in 1988

Now we just need you to see it and we'll be all set.

[MmP]

In over 50 years of time Manu's Euroleague title and MVP was the only one where all the clubs were not in the League. Think if half the NBA teams boycotted the league next season. Yes there is an asterisk there.
Well if half of the teams and didn't play next season. Would you still be exited in June if Spurs win it all? I don't know about you, but it's not like the Spurs made the other teams not playing. So in the end you're still a champion.
Same with EuroLeague. I see your point but Kinder Bologna didn't make the other teams not to play. And even if the play what tells you that they'd still didn't win?
What I say you can put an asterisk but when the years pass in the end you won a tittle, and nothing else matters cause if you starting thinking in conditionals well then every champion in the history of sports has to be asterisked.
What if Horry 3 pointer with Lakers did fall in that game 5 in 2003?
What if Manu didn't foul Dirk? Never mind, cause Miami won and they don't fill a bit bad thinking "Man, If the spurs had gotten to the finals we would have been screwed" cause they are the 2006 champions. And so on with every single NBA championship.


Also the Olympics MVP was not the first it was actually the only one, even in 2008 the award was removed. So of course Manu's accomplishments are amazing but it is a little bit funny to say "well he is the ONLY one to do such and such" when actually some of these things were not even possible for others.
I agree it's bad to say "He's the only one in the history of olympic bball to win an MVP award". But that still doesn't make it bad to call him the 2004 MVP tournament. That doesn't downgrade Manu's performance because he was the proven best of that tournament.


Olympic MVP would not be such a unique accomplishment if every Olympics instead of just one had the award. Sure it is wonderful to be champion of world and MVP by winning Olympics but the MVP thing is like almost not important since no other time they gave one.
It is unique accomplishment because Manu won an MVP of a tournament that it's played every four years. And Kobe would have been last years MVP I think, but that doesn't make Manu's accomplishment less valuable or anything. And it's not his responsability he won it, then FIBA took it out but it's still in his resume. You could say that Kobe deserved last year's and probably add it to his resume. That doesn't downgrade Manu's performance at all..

Just my opinon, I see what your say but I don't agree. I respect your opinion.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Did the Final Four exist in 1965? Yes or No.
Did the MVP award exist in 1965? Yes or No.
Did the ownership of the league remained the same since 1965? Yes or No.
Did the name remained the same since 1965? Yes or No.

Stop dodging the questions. Answer.

You are simply retarded. Unreal.

[ElNono]

So the myth he was only person to win all started with you I guess then?

You still haven't answered the question(s).
And no, I didn't start any myths nor wrote his wikipedia entry.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Now we just need you to see it and we'll be all set.

You are a funny guy. Even your own argument is a lie. It was not named Euroleague in 1988 dumb ass but now you claim it started in 1988 after you already claim it could never exist if it was not called Euroleague.

FUCKING IDIOT you cannot even get your own lies right.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

You still haven't answered the question(s).
And no, I didn't start any myths nor wrote his wikipedia entry.

Oh i see it came from a lie on wikipedia that someone make up and you take it as fact it was true? :lmao:rollin:blah:rolleyes

Just like on Spanoulis page some fucking fool put that he said he was T-Mac in Greece and people believed it when it never even happened.:rolleyes

The wikipedia thing is wrong. Is this really this hard for you to understand?

[ElNono]

You are simply retarded. Unreal.

What are you afraid of? Just answer the damn questions.
I don't give a shit what you think about me. What we really want to know is if you know what you claim to know.
So, stop beating around the bush and answer the questions.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

The idiot calling ElNono an idiot is actually the real idiot.

What the fuck? Euroleague MVP final four started in 1988 I PROVE it with link.

I have given several official links from Euroleague official website proving everything I say. El nono is obviously a liar and everyone can see this.

[Rogue]

You are a funny guy. Even your own argument is a lie. It was not named Euroleague in 1988 dumb ass but now you claim it started in 1988 after you already claim it could never exist if it was not called Euroleague.

FUCKING IDIOT you cannot even get your own lies right.
isn't it what you were once entitled by Kori? :lol

[ElNono]

You are a funny guy. Even your own argument is a lie. It was not named Euroleague in 1988 dumb ass but now you claim it started in 1988 after you already claim it could never exist if it was not called Euroleague.

FUCKING IDIOT you cannot even get your own lies right.

YOU claimed it started in 1988, not me. Can you get your shit straight before posting, or is it too much to ask?

BTW, you have a bunch of unanswered questions...

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Well if half of the teams and didn't play next season. Would you still be exited in June if Spurs win it all? I don't know about you, but it's not like the Spurs made the other teams not playing. So in the end you're still a champion.
Same with EuroLeague. I see your point but Kinder Bologna didn't make the other teams not to play. And even if the play what tells you that they'd still didn't win?
What I say you can put an asterisk but when the years pass in the end you won a tittle, and nothing else matters cause if you starting thinking in conditionals well then every champion in the history of sports has to be asterisked.
What if Horry 3 pointer with Lakers did fall in that game 5 in 2003?
What if Manu didn't foul Dirk? Never mind, cause Miami won and they don't fill a bit bad thinking "Man, If the spurs had gotten to the finals we would have been screwed" cause they are the 2006 champions. And so on with every single NBA championship..

Once again there was not one champion in 2001 and one MVP. There was TWO champions and TWO MVPs

So it is fact that it is wrong to say it like "the MVP" and such. There was 2 champions and 2 MVPs. Ia m sure that in NBA any time there is 2 league MVPs and champions that there will be asterisk.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

YOU claimed it started in 1988, not me. Can you get your shit straight before posting, or is it too much to ask?

BTW, you have a bunch of unanswered questions...

Euroleague MVP AWARD started in 1988. Can you read?

[Rogue]

Oh i see it came from a lie on wikipedia that someone make up and you take it as fact it was true? :lmao:rollin:blah:rolleyes

Just like on Spanoulis page some fucking fool put that he said he was T-Mac in Greece and people believed it when it never even happened.:rolleyes

The wikipedia thing is wrong. Is this really this hard for you to understand?
yeah, wikipedia contains tons of bullcrap info. For example, Spanoulis has got a brilliant career which by far is much more glorious than T-Mac's, but Greek people only consider him a T-Mac level player.

Obama was born in Hawaii, I hope this info isn't wrong on wikipedia.

[ElNono]

Oh i see it came from a lie on wikipedia that someone make up and you take it as fact it was true? :lmao:rollin:blah:rolleyes

Just like on Spanoulis page some fucking fool put that he said he was T-Mac in Greece and people believed it when it never even happened.:rolleyes

The wikipedia thing is wrong. Is this really this hard for you to understand?

Why won't you answer the questions? I've dumbed them down so even you can answer. This would have been over for a while now if you simply answered the 4 or 5 simple questions I asked. Instead, you keep on dodging them and insulting me instead.

Next thing we know you're going to claim the Greek league is worth a damn...
Just answer the fucking questions and let's put this sucker to rest...

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

2001 MVP =

Manu Ginboli
Ariel McDonald

2001 Champions =
Maccabi
Virtus

Since there are 2 Euroleague champions and 2 MVPs for this and just one for all other years, yes it seems like asterisk to me.

[MmP]

I don't get this asterisk thing and why affects a player's resume.
Too much for, I go to bed probably something better there than in here.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Why won't you answer the questions? I've dumbed them down so even you can answer. This would have been over for a while now if you simply answered the 4 or 5 simple questions I asked. Instead, you keep on dodging them and insulting me instead.

Next thing we know you're going to claim the Greek league is worth a damn...
Just answer the fucking questions and let's put this sucker to rest...

You are wrong. It was proven long ago. Why are you still arguing? Is it so horrible that Manu was one of 2 players in history instead of just 1 to do this? It is OK to be 1 of just 2.

[ElNono]

Euroleague MVP AWARD started in 1988. Can you read?

I can read. Can you answer really simple questions?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

yeah, wikipedia contains tons of bullcrap info. For example, Spanoulis has got a brilliant career which by far is much more glorious than T-Mac's, but Greek people only consider him a T-Mac level player.

Obama was born in Hawaii, I hope this info isn't wrong on wikipedia.

Spanoulis does have a brilliant career. He is by far greatest European player of all time after just 3 years of experience. Not any player after just 3 years of career time can even come close to what he has done in such short time.

[ElNono]

You are wrong. It was proven long ago. Why are you still arguing? Is it so horrible that Manu was one of 2 players in history instead of just 1 to do this? It is OK to be 1 of just 2.

So it wasn't called Euroleague in 1965? Is that what you're trying to tell me?
There was no Final Four in 1965? Is that what I read here?

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

So it wasn't called Euroleague in 1965? Is that what you're trying to tell me?
There was no Final Four in 1965? Is that what I read here?

I am put you in my ignore box.

[ElNono]

LOL... blessing in disguise...

[mystargtr34]

I think Dirk is arguably a top 5 play of his generation.

1. Duncan/Shaq
3. Kobe
4. KG
5. Dirk

Thats probably a pretty fair list IMO. You could argue Paul Pierce, who has the numbers and Finals MVP. Maybe Jason Kidd or Allen Iverson could be in the discussion too - but none of those guys consistantly had their teams at around 60 wins like Dirk did.

[mystargtr34]

Manu is one of the greats, and its hard to judge his career on its full merits since part of his prime was spent out of the NBA - but in the NBA, Dirk > Manu.

Manu did have a stretch of about 2 years there from 2005-2007 where he was probably a top 10 player in the NBA, but even in those years Dirk was arguably the best in the NBA, winning his MVP, and leading his team to the Finals.

[j-money24]

I think Dirk is arguably a top 5 play of his generation.

1. Kobe/Duncan/Shaq
4. KG
5. Dirk

Thats probably a pretty fair list IMO. You could argue Paul Pierce, who has the numbers and Finals MVP. Maybe Jason Kidd or Allen Iverson could be in the discussion too - but none of those guys consistantly had their teams at around 60 wins like Dirk did.

Fixed.


I hope you know that if Kobe does win a ring this year then he officially becomes the Player of the decade and that same goes for Duncan and Shaq, whoever wins one more ring this year becomes the player of the decade but as of right now, they are tied..

Shaq was the best player early in the decade 2000-2002
Duncan then took the honor from 2003-2005.
Now Kobe has been the best player this decade from 2006-present.

[Greg Oden]

Fixed.


I hope you know that if Kobe does win a ring this year then he officially becomes the Player of the decade and that same goes for Duncan and Shaq, whoever wins one more ring this year becomes the player of the decade but as of right now, they are tied..

Shaq was the best player early in the decade 2000-2002
Duncan then took the honor from 2003-2005.
Now Kobe has been the best player this decade from 2006-present.

Uh, they'll be getting a head start on 2010-2019 decade.


Kobe this year was kinda like that fat kid trying to get picked to play football. He barely did make it. Shaq was picked first.

[romain.star]

best international player in the NBA:
1. nowitzki
2. Nash
3. Parker
4. ginobili
5. gasol

best international player (FIBA and NBA)
1.Ginobili
2.Sabonis
3. Petrovic
4. Gasol
5. Divac

best international player (FIBA)
1. KBP
2. KBP
3. KBP
4. KBP
5. david rivers !

[Solid D]

Spanoulis does have a brilliant career. He is by far greatest European player of all time after just 3 years of experience. Not any player after just 3 years of career time can even come close to what he has done in such short time.

With a list of players, choosing to play in the NBA instead of Europe, that includes: Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Roko Leni Ukic, Marko Belinelli, Andrea Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Ersan Ilyasova, Zaza Pachulia, Vladimir Radmanovic, Boris Diaw, DeSagana Diop, Yakhouba Diawara, Mickael Pietrus, Marcin Gortat, Luis Scola, Fabricio Oberto, Marko Jaric, Marc Gasol, Pau Gasol, Peja Stojakovic, Ian Mahinmi, Ronny Turiaf, Linas Kleiza, Darius Songaila, Thabo Sefalosha, Serge Ibaka, Nenad Krstic, Nicolas Batum, Andrei Kirilenko, Mehmet Okur, Kosta Koufos, Andris Biedrins, Sasha Vujacic, Beno Udrih, Goran Dragic, Leandrinho Barbosa, Sasha Pavlovic, Spencer Hawes, Andres Nocioni, Omri Casspi, and Sergio Rodriguez....

it is little wonder that players such as V-Span choose to play in Europe. A shallow pool provides greater opportunity to swim, survive, and be noticed.

:smokin

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

With a list of players, choosing to play in the NBA instead of Europe, that includes: Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Roko Leni Ukic, Marko Belinelli, Andrea Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Ersan Ilyasova, Zaza Pachulia, Vladimir Radmanovic, Boris Diaw, DeSagana Diop, Yakhouba Diawara, Mickael Pietrus, Marcin Gortat, Luis Scola, Fabricio Oberto, Marko Jaric, Marc Gasol, Pau Gasol, Peja Stojakovic, Ian Mahinmi, Ronny Turiaf, Linas Kleiza, Darius Songaila, Thabo Sefalosha, Serge Ibaka, Nenad Krstic, Nicolas Batum, Andrei Kirilenko, Mehmet Okur, Kosta Koufos, Andris Biedrins, Sasha Vujacic, Beno Udrih, Goran Dragic, Leandrinho Barbosa, Sasha Pavlovic, Spencer Hawes, Andres Nocioni, Omri Casspi, and Sergio Rodriguez....

it is little wonder that players such as V-Span choose to play in Europe. A shallow pool provides greater opportunity to swim, survive, and be noticed.

:smokin


You are smoking good stuff to put most of those players in the class of Spanoulis. I mean that is a joke. Some of them I mean you have got to be kidding.

[sonic21]

lol spanoulis

[Muser]

best international player in the NBA:
1. nowitzki
2. Nash
3. Parker
4. ginobili
5. gasol

best international player (FIBA and NBA)
1.Ginobili
2.Sabonis
3. Petrovic
4. Gasol
5. Divac

best international player (FIBA)
1. KBP
2. KBP
3. KBP
4. KBP
5. david rivers !

Nash over Ginobili and Gasol?

[in2deep]

Spanoulis does have a brilliant career. He is by far greatest European player of all time after just 3 years of experience.

:lmao

hilarious

[in2deep]

best international player in the NBA:
1. nowitzki
2. Nash
3. Parker
4. ginobili
5. gasol


you mean RIGHT NOW right? Nash should be #5

if Manu has a great season he easily could be back to #2 by end of the season.

careerwise of the current players in NBA:
1. Dirk
2. Manu
3. Nash
4. Parker
5. Gasol

[kace]

you mean RIGHT NOW right? Nash should be #5

if Manu has a great season he easily could be back to #2 by end of the season.

careerwise of the current players in NBA:
1. Dirk
2. Manu
3. Nash
4. Parker
5. Gasol

career wise in NBA ? are you kiddin' ? Nash, Parker and Gasol should be all three ahead of manu. Look at the stats, level, consistence, recognition (MVP, ASG or finals MVP).

If we talk about overall career, at every stage, manu has simply one of the best career of any player ever. Euroleague (MVP), Italy championship, Italy cup (x2), Gold and bronze medals at the Olympics (MVP), Silver medal at the world championship, 3 times NBA champion (1 ASG, 1 NBA 3rd team and 1 6MOY).

right now, in the world, i can't see any current player having a greatest career. and even in the past, it could be hard to find. Having won, being the main man or one of them, in every stage. wow.

but still, as long as we're talking ONLY about NBA career from non us players, manu has several players ahead of him.

[in2deep]

career wise in NBA ? are you kiddin' ? Nash, Parker and Gasol should be all three before manu. Look at the stats, level, consistence, recognition (MVP, ASG or finals MVP).

If we talk about overall career, at every stage, manu has simply one of the best career of any player ever. Euroleague (MVP), Italy championship, Italy cup (x2), Gold and bronze medals at the Olympics (MVP), Silver medal at the world championship, 3 times NBA champion (1 ASG, 1 NBA 3rd team and 1 6MOY).

right now, in the world, i can't see any current player having a greatest career. and even in the past, it could be hard to find. Having won, being the main man or one of them, in every stage. wow.

but still, as long as we're talking ONLY about NBA career from non us players, manu have several players before him.

sorry I was including international achievements. yes, Manu could even be #1 in that case.

but only NBA career:

1. Dirk
2. Nash
3. Gasol
4. Parker/Manu tossup

[Findog]

Euroleague (MVP),

Minor League


Italy championship,

Minor League


Italy cup (x2),

Minor League



Gold and bronze medals at the Olympics (MVP),

FIBA


Silver medal at the world championship,

FIBA





but still, as long as we're talking ONLY about NBA career from non us players, manu have several players behind him.


Who would those be? Since minor league basketball should not enter into the equation, his Euro hardware makes no impression on me.

Dirk and Nash have had better NBA careers than Manu. Making a Finals as a #1 guy and winning two MVP awards as a #1 guy trumps being a 3-time champion as a #2 guy. If Manu were capable of winning a championship as a #1 guy or took home 3 MVP awards as a #1 guy, then you could argue he's had a better NBA career than Nash or Dirk.

We'll never know 100% certain what Manu would do as a #1 guy with his own team, but he's a Top 30 player. That strikes me as him leading his team to an 8th seed at best.

[MB20]

career wise in NBA ? are you kiddin' ? Nash, Parker and Gasol should be all three before manu. Look at the stats, level, consistence, recognition (MVP, ASG or finals MVP).

If we talk about overall career, at every stage, manu has simply one of the best career of any player ever. Euroleague (MVP), Italy championship, Italy cup (x2), Gold and bronze medals at the Olympics (MVP), Silver medal at the world championship, 3 times NBA champion (1 ASG, 1 NBA 3rd team and 1 6MOY).

right now, in the world, i can't see any current player having a greatest career. and even in the past, it could be hard to find. Having won, being the main man or one of them, in every stage. wow.

but still, as long as we're talking ONLY about NBA career from non us players, manu has several players before him.

I agree, I guess...

Manu had a better career overall than Nash, Tony or any other international player if we are talking about accomplishments.
But strictly in the NBA, Nash and Tony > Manu. Gasol? I don´t know.

[in2deep]

FIBA



LOL FIBA? Manu beat a USA team full of NBA allstars regardless of FIBA rules.

[Findog]

LOL FIBA? Manu beat a USA team full of NBA allstars.

Under FIBA rules and with a stacked team besides him. Those national teams practice and play together for years on end, whereas the US has thrown their international comp squads together in a haphazard fashion without much understanding of what it takes to win in FIBA. If the Argentinian National Team was inducted into the NBA as the 31st team, they'd struggle to adapt to NBA rules.

I'm more impressed with Dirk getting Germany to qualify for the Olympics when his supporting cast was a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness. Manu couldn't have done that.

[kace]

sorry I was including international achievements. yes, Manu could even be #1 in that case.

but only NBA career:

1. Dirk
2. Nash
3. Gasol
4. Parker/Manu tossup

yep. if we're talking about current players. add some of the great former international players, and manu could drop 3 or 4 ranks lower IMO.

[in2deep]

Under FIBA rules and with a stacked team besides him. Those national teams practice and play together for years on end, whereas the US has thrown their international comp squads together in a haphazard fashion without much understanding of what it takes to win in FIBA. If the Argentinian National Team was inducted into the NBA as the 31st team, they'd struggle to adapt to NBA rules.

I'm more impressed with Dirk getting Germany to qualify for the Olympics when his supporting cast was a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness. Manu couldn't have done that.

you make it sounds like the competition level is fair. you fail to realize USA players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international players in talent. yeah, these days international teams have 1,2,3 decent NBA level players but team USA has 12! not to mention 2 or 3 of the top 5 players in the world

whatever the rules or length of practice. Beating a USA team full of NBA allstars is an amazing achievement.

[Findog]

Manu is one of the greats, and its hard to judge his career on its full merits since part of his prime was spent out of the NBA - but in the NBA, Dirk > Manu.

Manu did have a stretch of about 2 years there from 2005-2007 where he was probably a top 10 player in the NBA, but even in those years Dirk was arguably the best in the NBA, winning his MVP, and leading his team to the Finals.

It's nice to see some Spurs fans can look at things objectively. Aside from the flopping, I like Manu's game and watching him play. I'm not a Manu hater. But he's not better than Dirk. No way, no how.

[kace]

Minor League



Minor League



Minor League



FIBA



FIBA






Who would those be? Since minor league basketball should not enter into the equation, his Euro hardware makes no impression on me.

Dirk and Nash have had better NBA careers than Manu. Making a Finals as a #1 guy and winning two MVP awards as a #1 guy trumps being a 3-time champion as a #2 guy. If Manu were capable of winning a championship as a #1 guy or took home 3 MVP awards as a #1 guy, then you could argue he's had a better NBA career than Nash or Dirk.

We'll never know 100% certain what Manu would do as a #1 guy with his own team, but he's a Top 30 player. That strikes me as him leading his team to an 8th seed at best.


well, as long as you consider that anything outside the NBA is BS, any discussion is useless.

as for the last quote, sorry, i used "behind" instead of "ahead of". i've corrected it immediately but not soon enough for your quoting obviously. so, on the last point, we agree.

[Findog]

you make it sounds like the competition level is fair. you fail to realize USA players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> international players in talent.

It's a combination of things. Certainly the rest of the world has erased a large part of the gap when the Dream Team assraped everybody in 92. Still, the NBA is the premier men's professional basketball league and has the best talent. That said, the only reason the US won this last time around is because they had Kobe, LBJ and Wade together and Team USA learned their lessons as to what works in FIBA and what doesn't. Manu is a more effective player in FIBA than he is in the NBA.



whatever the rules or length of practice. Beating a USA team full of NBA allstars is an amazing achievement.


Of course it is. That doesn't make him a better player than Dirk though.

[Findog]

well, as long as you consider that anything outside the NBA is BS, any discussion is useless.

Why should I consider what he did in minor league basketball? Should I list what Alex Rodriguez did at Double A?

[in2deep]

Of course it is. That doesn't make him a better player than Dirk though.

nobody on this thread is saying he is. :rolleyes

[Findog]

nobody on this thread is saying he is. :rolleyes

I'm pretty sure quite a few people in this thread have.

[anonoftheinternets]

I'm pretty sure quite a few people in this thread have.

no dirk is a better player, but manu has accomplished more in his international career and that is about it. So when we judge the best international player, we pretty much compare resumes, and see Manu has a better international career.

But if the question is NBA then obv its Dirk.

If the question is Dirk as a player, against Manu as a player in general, I would go with Dirk because he has been a franchise player in the toughest league, whereas for manu we would have to guess how he would have adapted had he entered the NBA as a draft pick from college. Fact > Speculation.

[MB20]

you're exagerating a bit here... In his prime playing for the great machester David Spicy was a top 20 players at that time

Off topic!

I´m bored:

Zidane, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Roberto Carlos, Romario, Ronaldinho, Zamorano, Laudrup, Raul, Henry, Thuram, Shearer, Del Piero, P. Maldini, Totti, Vieri, Bergkamp, Kluivert, Rivaldo, Van Nistelrooy, Figo, Nedved, Hagi, Shevchenko, Stoichkov...

Nope. Beckham wasn´t top 20 at that time ( 1998-1999 ). He was just overrated by the media.

[romain.star]

Off topic!

I´m bored:

Zidane, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Roberto Carlos, Romario, Ronaldinho, Zamorano, Laudrup, Raul, Henry, Thuram, Shearer, Del Piero, P. Maldini, Totti, Vieri, Bergkamp, Kluivert, Rivaldo, Van Nistelrooy, Figo, Nedved, Hagi, Shevchenko, Stoichkov...

Nope. Beckham wasn´t top 20 at that time ( 1998-1999 ). He was just overrated by the media.

hagi and stoichkov were too old back then, ronaldihno henry and van nistelroy were too young, shearer = newcastle, zamorano??? come on... maybe salas at his very best.
like it or not but before being a spice boy, beckham was among the world class player and a leader in an all time classic team: 99 Manutd

[DaBears]

Maybe we would have to change it up a bit and ask our selves which international player means more to his team in the sense of team success.. That might help you establish who the better play is.....

[greensborohill]

Maybe we would have to change it up a bit and ask our selves which international player means more to his team in the sense of team success.. That might help you establish who the better play is.....


Nowitzki.

Dallas w/o Nowitzki = trash

Germany w/o Nowitzki = lowest of the low trash

[MB20]

hagi and stoichkov were too old back then, ronaldihno henry and van nistelroy were too young, shearer = newcastle, zamorano??? come on... maybe salas at his very best.
like it or not but before being a spice boy, beckham was among the world class player and a leader in an all time classic team: 99 Manutd

Zola, Weah, Baggio, Cafu...:hat

[Solid D]

With a list of players, choosing to play in the NBA instead of Europe, that includes: Dirk Nowitzki, Manu Ginobili, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, Roko Leni Ukic, Marko Belinelli, Andrea Bargnani, Rasho Nesterovic, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Ersan Ilyasova, Zaza Pachulia, Vladimir Radmanovic, Boris Diaw, DeSagana Diop, Yakhouba Diawara, Mickael Pietrus, Marcin Gortat, Luis Scola, Fabricio Oberto, Marko Jaric, Marc Gasol, Pau Gasol, Peja Stojakovic, Ian Mahinmi, Ronny Turiaf, Linas Kleiza, Darius Songaila, Thabo Sefalosha, Serge Ibaka, Nenad Krstic, Nicolas Batum, Andrei Kirilenko, Mehmet Okur, Kosta Koufos, Andris Biedrins, Sasha Vujacic, Beno Udrih, Goran Dragic, Leandrinho Barbosa, Sasha Pavlovic, Spencer Hawes, Andres Nocioni, Omri Casspi, and Sergio Rodriguez....

it is little wonder that players such as V-Span choose to play in Europe. A shallow pool provides greater opportunity to swim, survive, and be noticed.

:smokin


You are smoking good stuff to put most of those players in the class of Spanoulis. I mean that is a joke. Some of them I mean you have got to be kidding.

There you go again, drawing an incorrect conclusion from a point made. You are either drawing an incorrect conclusion or you are trying to misdirect the discussion by establishing an entirely different criteria for argument...one that suits you.

I didn't list those NBA players to attempt to put them in the same class or level of play with Spanoulis. Some of them are just better players, but that is beside the point. The point is that a growing number of good, non-USA players are playing in the NBA and not in Europe. If even half of that talent were playing in the European leagues or in Euroleague, with the team basketball that is being played in Europe, it would be more difficult for a player like V-Span to earn MVP status. Let's face it, he was unable to thrive by swimming in the NBA pool...whether by homesickness, coach or whatever the excuse.

(awaiting your next re-direct defending Spanoulis' reasons)

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Minor League



Minor League



Minor League



FIBA



FIBA






Who would those be? Since minor league basketball should not enter into the equation, his Euro hardware makes no impression on me.

Dirk and Nash have had better NBA careers than Manu. Making a Finals as a #1 guy and winning two MVP awards as a #1 guy trumps being a 3-time champion as a #2 guy. If Manu were capable of winning a championship as a #1 guy or took home 3 MVP awards as a #1 guy, then you could argue he's had a better NBA career than Nash or Dirk.

We'll never know 100% certain what Manu would do as a #1 guy with his own team, but he's a Top 30 player. That strikes me as him leading his team to an 8th seed at best.

You are a joke.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Under FIBA rules and with a stacked team besides him. Those national teams practice and play together for years on end, whereas the US has thrown their international comp squads together in a haphazard fashion without much understanding of what it takes to win in FIBA. If the Argentinian National Team was inducted into the NBA as the 31st team, they'd struggle to adapt to NBA rules.

I'm more impressed with Dirk getting Germany to qualify for the Olympics when his supporting cast was a bunch of dudes that couldn't hold the court at a 24 Hour Fitness. Manu couldn't have done that.

You make this all up.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Why should I consider what he did in minor league basketball? Should I list what Alex Rodriguez did at Double A?

You are a fucking idiot.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

There you go again, drawing an incorrect conclusion from a point made. You are either drawing an incorrect conclusion or you are trying to misdirect the discussion by establishing an entirely different criteria for argument...one that suits you.

I didn't list those NBA players to attempt to put them in the same class or level of play with Spanoulis. Some of them are just better players, but that is beside the point. The point is that a growing number of good, non-USA players are playing in the NBA and not in Europe. If even half of that talent were playing in the European leagues or in Euroleague, with the team basketball that is being played in Europe, it would be more difficult for a player like V-Span to earn MVP status. Let's face it, he was unable to thrive by swimming in the NBA pool...whether by homesickness, coach or whatever the excuse.

(awaiting your next re-direct defending Spanoulis' reasons)

Spanoulis is the best European talent that has ever lived. In 10 years time you and everyone else will be embarrassed that you ever argued with me. It is hilarious that the greatest coach ever (the one that Popovich learns from) the same one that coached Sabonis, Bodiroga, etc. said Spanoulis is the greatest talent he has ever seen.

He calls him the "Chosen One" and said the same thing before his career is over he will be remembered as the greatest player regardless of what league.

[Brazil]

Off topic!

I´m bored:

Zidane, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Roberto Carlos, Romario, Ronaldinho, Zamorano, Laudrup, Raul, Henry, Thuram, Shearer, Del Piero, P. Maldini, Totti, Vieri, Bergkamp, Kluivert, Rivaldo, Van Nistelrooy, Figo, Nedved, Hagi, Shevchenko, Stoichkov...

Nope. Beckham wasn´t top 20 at that time ( 1998-1999 ). He was just overrated by the media.

lol I didn't see your post before.

Well let's see Batistuta ? Zamorano ? Laudrup ? Thuram ? (i love thuram but come on) Rivaldo ??? no way

[rold50]

Spanoulis is the best European talent that has ever lived. In 10 years time you and everyone else will be embarrassed that you ever argued with me. It is hilarious that the greatest coach ever (the one that Popovich learns from) the same one that coached Sabonis, Bodiroga, etc. said Spanoulis is the greatest talent he has ever seen.

He calls him the "Chosen One" and said the same thing before his career is over he will be remembered as the greatest player regardless of what league.
:lol good one

[MB20]

lol I didn't see your post before.

Well let's see Batistuta ? Zamorano ? Laudrup ? Thuram ? (i love thuram but come on) Rivaldo ??? no way

Other sports forum...:hat

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

:lol good one

Kobe said Spanoulis was best player he saw at Olympics.

[sonic21]

Kobe said Spanoulis was best player he saw at Olympics.

link or BS