The Sad Anniversary - Hiroshima: 64 years ago

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/08/hiroshima_64_years_ago.html


:depressed

[blizz]

why is it sad? they started it. they were warned and did nothing about it. what's sad is the unprovoked, cowardly attack at pearl harbor. the other thing that no one talks about or realizes, is that that more people died in the fire bombings on tokyo than the bombing of hiroshima, the only difference is that this was ONE bomb and it ended the war so that's all that ever gets talked about. that was war...a war we did not start. terrible things happen in war....better them than us. that bomb saved hundreds of thousands of lives that would have ensued had that war continued and saved perhaps millions more since then.

[jaffies]

good point. I'd have to agree.

[blizz]

good point. I'd have to agree.

:toast

[Cry Havoc]

why is it sad? they started it. they were warned and did nothing about it. what's sad is the unprovoked, cowardly attack at pearl harbor. the other thing that no one talks about or realizes, is that that more people died in the fire bombings on tokyo than the bombing of hiroshima, the only difference is that this was ONE bomb and it ended the war so that's all that ever gets talked about. that was war...a war we did not start. terrible things happen in war....better them than us. that bomb saved hundreds of thousands of lives that would have ensued had that war continued and saved perhaps millions more since then.

I'm aware the firebombings killed more. But they were nowhere near as sudden or as devastating (in terms of a span of time). One instant, a city was there, the next..... practically nothing.

And I'm also aware the Japanese initiated the conflict. Should that mean I celebrate this? Hundreds of thousands of people died in a few minutes a little less than a lifetime ago. I'm sorry that I no longer see them as "the enemy". I don't blame Truman and the Manhattan Project for what they had to do, but I certainly do not relish the idea of what was done. I am no apologist for any of the atrocities the Japanese committed in that war, but in no way would I ever wish that something like that had to have taken place to end the fighting.

ANY time you remove two cities from the face of the Earth and completely scour the civilians living there, it should be a sad memory of how human ambition and greed took precedence over rationality and peace. This is not to place blame on one side or the other -- it is merely to assert the hopelessness of true peace if we consistently view people not living in our country as "them". The "other" people. They are fellow human beings, mothers, fathers, children, and as such their memory deserves to be honored. Do not think that every person in Japan was so filled with nationalistic pride that they all desired to go to war. We err when we typecast an entire region or country as a group of warmongering savages. That is never, ever the case. Many people just want to live their lives in relative freedom and happiness.

Ask any war veteran who has seen live combat, and they will tell you: There are no winners in war, only losers who lost badly and those who didn't lose as badly.

I am sad that these things were being carried out on both sides of the equation by fellow human beings. Any time you have a loss of life on that scale, it is a terrific, incomprehensible tragedy, whether it was "justified" or not.

[sonic21]

the Nagasaki one was sad, it was not necessary. They didn't wait to see if they were going to surrender after Hiroshima.

[blizz]

Those bombs did create peace, they stopped the war. Would you rather that we had invaded Japan? Seriously? Had we invaded Japan, we would have lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers and killed well over a million Japanese soldiers and civilians including men, women and children because the Japanese trained them all how to attack our soldiers. I don't give a shit about how sudden....or how quick the people died. Whether it was a matter of minutes or hours, dead is dead. They were warned and did nothing about it. The estimates for the fireboming of Tokyo on March 9/10 1945 put the number at up to 100,000 people killed, over 100,000 injured, over a million homeless, 16 square miles wiped out and 280,000 buildings destroyed. I'm not asking you to celebrate it, I didn't even imply it and I certainly do not see "them" as the enemy. Don't put words in my mouth. Tragic? Sure. Necessary? Definitely. It saved so many more lives, ten/twenty times more, that it took. Ask any veteran of WWII if they regret the bombing of Hiroshima. You will not find one that does.

[blizz]

the Nagasaki one was sad, it was not necessary. They didn't wait to see if they were going to surrender after Hiroshima.

After Hiroshima, Japan had three days and ignored another warning from Truman -"If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth."

Even after Nagasaki, it wasn't until the Russians invaded that Japan surrendered.

[sonic21]

After Hiroshima, Japan had three days and ignored another warning from Truman -"If they do not now accept our terms, they may expect a rain of ruin from the air the likes of which has never been seen on this earth."

Even after Nagasaki, it wasn't until the Russians invaded that Japan surrendered.

i'm not saying i'm right, i don't really know. But i read a lot of articles with US military officers saying japanese had already sued for peace before the bombings.

The second atomic bombing, on Nagasaki, came only three days after the bombing of Hiroshima, when the devastation at Hiroshima had yet to be fully comprehended by the Japanese.

[boutons_deux]

The Allies firestorming and nuking NON-combattants by the 100s of 1000s.

The victors get to write the history.

It's the My Lai logic. "We had to destroy the village(+villagers) to save it".

[SonOfAGun]

Once we got beyond sword and shield the whole system went and got fucked up.

[samikeyp]

War sucks. Next time, don't start one.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

The dawn of the nuclear age. Even if you hated Japan with every fiber of your being and wanted them all dead, it's tough to really celebrate the introduction of the weapons technology that would cast a shadow over global politics to this very day.

[samikeyp]

The dawn of the nuclear age. Even if you hated Japan with every fiber of your being and wanted them all dead, it's tough to really celebrate the introduction of the weapons technology that would cast a shadow over global politics to this very day.

I don't think it needs to be celebrated but it does need to be remembered, as a reminder to continue to seek peace.

[BacktoBasics]

MERICA is always right. MESS WITH MERICA AND GET THE HORNS.

[DarkReign]

I watched about 4 documentaries on the event yesterday without even knowing it was the anniversary.

Thats kind of odd, really. Anyway, just because an evil is necessary doesnt make it better. It just makes it less intolerable.

[mrsmaalox]

Tough lessons learned all the way around; and still so much to learn.

[ploto]

It's a reminder that despite growing up in an era of being taught to be scared of other countries having nuclear weapons that it is the United States after all that is the only country ever to use them, and it was done twice.

[angrydude]

It's a reminder that despite growing up in an era of being taught to be scared of other countries having nuclear weapons that it is the United States after all that is the only country ever to use them, and it was done twice.

easy to understand why.

you kill or be killed.

war stinks.

[CosmicCowboy]

Well, I for one am glad they dropped the bomb. I probably wouldn't be here if they hadn't. My dad was a Corsair fighter pilot flying missions from Okinawa over Japan when they did it. They were already preparing for the invasion and best projections were that his squadron would have 75% casualties and overall they were expecting total casualties in the invasion to be over a million.

[Johnson]

how dare we, after Corregidor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March)

[z0sa]

A sad day? Yes.

What would have been far sadder was the million or so lives, on both sides but mainly civilian Japanese, that would have been slaughtered should we have invaded traditionally. The nukes actually saved many lives on both sides which is why they were dropped.

[ploto]

What would have been far sadder was the million or so lives, on both sides but mainly civilian Japanese, that would have been slaughtered should we have invaded traditionally.

As if those are the only two options.

[Cry Havoc]

Those bombs did create peace, they stopped the war.

Over 200,000 died. That's a tragedy no matter what else happened. When enough people to fill 2+ Rose Bowls disappear from the Earth in a matter of days, it's sad. That's all I'm saying.


ould you rather that we had invaded Japan? Seriously? Had we invaded Japan, we would have lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers and killed well over a million Japanese soldiers and civilians including men, women and children because the Japanese trained them all how to attack our soldiers.

As I said before, I think the devices were necessary. SPOILER ALERT. Not to make this a movie comparison, but at the end of Million Dollar Baby, when he helps her to commit suicide, does it make it okay, just because it was necessary and perhaps even the right thing to do? It is a grim reality.


I don't give a shit about how sudden....or how quick the people died. Whether it was a matter of minutes or hours, dead is dead. They were warned and did nothing about it.

They had no clue and no evidence that we (or any nation) was capable of inflicting such destruction. They saw the Enola Gay in the air and cut the air raid siren because they thought it was a reconnaissance plane, not realizing one bomb could do what it did.


The estimates for the fireboming of Tokyo on March 9/10 1945 put the number at up to 100,000 people killed, over 100,000 injured, over a million homeless, 16 square miles wiped out and 280,000 buildings destroyed. I'm not asking you to celebrate it, I didn't even imply it and I certainly do not see "them" as the enemy. Don't put words in my mouth.

You jumped to the conclusion that I was unaware or unwilling to acknowledge how devastating the invasion of the Japanese homeland would have been, something I'm not only familiar with, but have studied at my Alma-mater. I'm keenly familiar with the situation. I posted this as in memoriam of the reality of war, the decisions it forces us to make at times.


Tragic? Sure. Necessary? Definitely.

This is what I said in my initial response to you.


It saved so many more lives, ten/twenty times more, that it took. Ask any veteran of WWII if they regret the bombing of Hiroshima. You will not find one that does.

I think that's a bit of a mass generalization. Even the President and staff who ordered the atomic bombings had doubts and regrets about the process. My dad is a vet, and has openly said that anytime you go to war, you are full of regrets from the first day you fire a rifle at another living person. The necessity does not remove the devastating reality of such an act.

"The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker."

~Albert Einstein

Yes, it saved lives. Yes, it was necessary. That doesn't mean it is an occasion that should be celebrated. We were forced to use the deadliest weapon in the history of mankind on another civilization. If it happens again, there might not be many people left to weep about it. If there isn't a sad siren warning in that, I don't know what to think about our chances as a species for survival.

[blizz]

Yes, it saved lives. Yes, it was necessary. That doesn't mean it is an occasion that should be celebrated. We were forced to use the deadliest weapon in the history of mankind on another civilization. If it happens again, there might not be many people left to weep about it. If there isn't a sad siren warning in that, I don't know what to think about our chances as a species for survival.

SHOW me where I said...where anyone said...that it should be celebrated. Other than that....I think for the most part we agree. I took your post the wrong way and saw it more as a regret. So sure...I'll say it's sad. Sad so many people died. Unfortunately, that's the reality of war. As an American, I'm not apologetic about the bombing in the least bit though.

[Cry Havoc]

SHOW me where I said...where anyone said...that it should be celebrated.

You asked why it's sad. I am merely attempting to articulate exactly why it's a horror that should never be forgotten.

[SonOfAGun]

It's a reminder that despite growing up in an era of being taught to be scared of other countries having nuclear weapons that it is the United States after all that is the only country ever to use them, and it was done twice.


I didn't have to attend too many days of Mr. Common Sense's common sense curriculum to understand why a country promising the eradication of another country nonstop should not attain nuclear weapons.

Being taught to be scared. :lol

[The Gemini Method]

The bombs only created a temporary peace. It lead to the arms race and the subsequent Cold War--which, killed thousands of people without ever escalating into a full-scale war. The first bomb was enough. Yes, we flexed our muscle to show that we'd be the go-to nation after WWII, but Nagasaki was just for show and that is a bit excessive.

[z0sa]

The bombs only created a temporary peace. It lead to the arms race and the subsequent Cold War--which, killed thousands of people without ever escalating into a full-scale war. The first bomb was enough. Yes, we flexed our muscle to show that we'd be the go-to nation after WWII, but Nagasaki was just for show and that is a bit excessive.

I consider it 100% true that there was motivation, if only slight, to use the bombs as a sort of "revenge" for pearl harbor and as a way to flex our shortlived nuclear monopoly. One must remember the context: Japanese and Germans were being herded into camps, for Chrissakes. America was at war, complete mobilization allocation of all resources, and many soldiers' lives had already been lost (though I seem to remember more died in the civil war than all subsequent wars combined, even including iraq's total to date). Additionally, we were clearly moving past multiple eras: changing from a 'barely scrape' along mindset for most Americans, to a veritable golden age in comparison; and out of the isolationism identity that never was relieved following WW1 (which ultimately extended both the great depression and WW2 IMO). Flexing our scientific and military might through the bombs in an attempt to end further extreme amounts of bloodshed was indirect affirmation that not only were the bad times for Americans in the past, but that the world was witnessing the birth of the first true global superpower, both economically and concerning military prowess.

While these are probably the opposite of justification, I believe they are essential to understanding the context in which the bombs were used.

[101A]

As if those are the only two options.

This is true.

We were insistent on "unconditional" surrender; while the emperor wanted to be able to save SOME face; apparently Japan was willing to surrender on terms; Truman wouldn't negotiate AT ALL.

Lives were lost on both sides of the semantics of the surrender; honestly don't know how I feel about that.

[101A]

even including iraq's total to date)

As horrible as any loss of life is; including "Iraq" in your statement is superfluous. There are several DAYS of war this country has fought that produced more loss of life than the entirety the Iraq war has.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyway, just because an evil is necessary doesnt make it better. It just makes it less intolerable.That's why they call it a Necessary Evil, or the Lesser of Two Evils.

[blizz]

The bombs only created a temporary peace. It lead to the arms race and the subsequent Cold War--which, killed thousands of people without ever escalating into a full-scale war. The first bomb was enough. Yes, we flexed our muscle to show that we'd be the go-to nation after WWII, but Nagasaki was just for show and that is a bit excessive.

There were plans to keep bombing, city after city, until they surrendered. If one bomb was enough, they would have surrendered. They didn't, so one bomb obviously was NOT enough. Nagasaki was not just for show. It was for the same reason the first one was used. A quick way to end the war without invading. Now, did it also show what we were capable of and was showing the world what we had relevant? Sure....was it THE motivation....NO.

[timvp]

Americans have purchased so many Japanese goods since then that we have indirectly financed the additional creation of more than 200,000 Japanese people so we are even.

[DarkReign]

Americans have purchased so many Japanese goods since then that we have indirectly financed the additional creation of more than 200,000 Japanese people so we are even.

:lmao

[DarkReign]

I consider it 100% true that there was motivation, if only slight, to use the bombs as a sort of "revenge" for pearl harbor and as a way to flex our shortlived nuclear monopoly.

Quite true and Americans werent the only one.

See Russia demanding the invasion of Berlin, where they raped, killed and pillaged everything and everyone who was left.

See Britain firebombing Berlin for three straight days after it was clear Germany was finished. I remember hearing that the Brits dropped more bombs in those three days than they did for the entire war up until that point combined.

Fact is, we werent alive for WW2 (most of us anyway, unless xray is still lingering). Not one of us knows the horror of that war or the ferocity of a Japanese defense of its island. Or being Britain where Germany does nothing but bomb the ever-loving hell out of you day and night for 5 years straight. Or being a Russian and having the cost of war total over 9 million people, much of those prisoners sent to concentration camps to be experimented on then euthanized.

Its fast and easy for us to judge now and I am just as guilty. But the bloodlust for the atrocities committed by the Axis powers could not be ignored by the Allies. They would pay a heavy, heavy price in blood for their ambitions and trangressions...and they all did except Italy (who wisely surrendered long before revenge ever became a concept of negotiation).

[samikeyp]

Americans have purchased so many Japanese goods since then that we have indirectly financed the additional creation of more than 200,000 Japanese people so we are even.

:lol

[tlongII]

That was a bummer day. Even though I wasn't alive at the time I still feel guilty about it every time I visit Japan. I have a hard time thinking of all the civilian women and children that were killed instantly. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have done it, just that it's nothing to be proud of.

[ploto]

Being taught to be scared. :lol

I am guessing you are not old enough to remember the days of civil defense drills in elementary school.


Duck and Cover was a suggested method of personal protection against the effects of a nuclear weapon which the United States government taught to generations of United States school children from the early 1950s into the 1980s. This was supposed to protect them in the event of an unexpected nuclear attack which, they were told, could come at any time without warning. Immediately after they saw a flash they had to stop what they were doing and get on the ground under some cover—such as a table, or at least next to a wall—and assume the fetal position, lying face-down and covering their heads with their hands.--Wikipedia

[iggypop123]

That was a bummer day. Even though I wasn't alive at the time I still feel guilty about it every time I visit Japan. I have a hard time thinking of all the civilian women and children that were killed instantly. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have done it, just that it's nothing to be proud of.

if you have empathy for japan see rape of nanking, that will fix things

[PM5K]

By all means sir, drop that fucker, twice!

[PM5K]

Americans have purchased so many Japanese goods since then that we have indirectly financed the additional creation of more than 200,000 Japanese people so we are even.

I love Asian women, I've probably contributed to the creation of a few Mexi-Japs myself, but I never stuck around to find out for sure.

[The Gemini Method]

There were plans to keep bombing, city after city, until they surrendered. If one bomb was enough, they would have surrendered. They didn't, so one bomb obviously was NOT enough. Nagasaki was not just for show. It was for the same reason the first one was used. A quick way to end the war without invading. Now, did it also show what we were capable of and was showing the world what we had relevant? Sure....was it THE motivation....NO.

Uh, there were signs that after the Hiroshima bomb the Imperial Gov't had decided to wave the white flag. Whether this is true 100%, who knows exactly. If you don't think the usage of the bomb was not at all for show as well as ending the world's most deadliest conflict, I think you're wrong. For too long had the U.S. and Britain held the Soviets in contempt and when the atomic bomb was dispensed, it was ALSO, not in confinement, a shot across the bow as to whom was now the shotcaller.

[The Gemini Method]

Well, at least the two losing sides of WWII were able to develop--which is more the exception than the norm. Both Germany and Japan have excelled in developing an identity on the opposite spectrum from their nefarious war mongering. I have to say, that the usage of both Japanese and German imports is a plus that came from the endgame of that war.

I agree with the poster above--if you've had a chance to get with a Japanese woman, you will definitely know the benefits of the atomic bomb ;P

[1369]

That was a bummer day. Even though I wasn't alive at the time I still feel guilty about it every time I visit Japan. I have a hard time thinking of all the civilian women and children that were killed instantly. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have done it, just that it's nothing to be proud of.

Wonder if a Japanese guy visiting Nanjing feels the same way?

[boutons_deux]

"Japanese guy visiting Nanjing"

So US had to murder civilians, no other choice, because the Japs were murdering civilians? This makes America The Beautiful so much better than the rest of the world.

[1369]

"Japanese guy visiting Nanjing"

So US had to murder civilians, no other choice, because the Japs were murdering civilians? This makes America The Beautiful so much better than the rest of the world.

Careful B, your strawman is showing.

[boutons_deux]

The only straw man here is why anybody cares about how a Japanese feels visiting Nanking.

[batman2883]

Ughh its not sad, they shouldnt have fucked with us!!!

[Phillip]

pFlcqWQVVuU

[Clandestino]

Americans have purchased so many Japanese goods since then that we have indirectly financed the additional creation of more than 200,000 Japanese people so we are even.

too fucking funny!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hiroshima, A shadow burned in time
Nagasaki, naked baby melts alive
Burnt flesh and rubble from sea to dead shore
Such a hideous theatre of war
But that was the end--Why?
There are so many more that must die
Is that not part of the plan?
I must use the nukes
I can't kill you all with my hands

Hydrogen bomb, new signs of doom
Thermo-nuclear, neutron bomb too...
You say these devices must never be used
I say you're mistaken, let's get to the fuse

This is state policy, "by other means"
Your life ends in terror, this is now decreed
This is the blasting of bloody steel beams
The bomb blows air backwards, there's no time to scream

When they tested the A-bomb, they had a real fear
The blast will destroy your sweet atmosphere
But far more important as power increases
Was wasting the planet in well-ordered pieces

Bring back the bomb
It's been far too long
Summon the brazen war chariot
Bring back the bomb
what makes it so wrong?
Release the beast, you can't bury it


Why should the fire be shared with so few?
Let bombs explode, 'cause that's what they do
Nuke Mecca, New York, the Vatican too
Give me a bomb, I'll drop it on you
Why stop at only two?
You showed the world just what it can do
What a waste not to destroy
Come play at war, man, and bring your best toy

Who gives a fuck about a nuclear war?
Let bombs explode, because that's what they're for
Last minute warning, the sirens they sing
Chaos, the reason, death, what we bring

Humans now look to the sky!
You worship missiles, yet they know no side
I guess it was all a lie
So grab ass with both hands, it's your turn to die

Die--it's your turn to die
Lies--they killed you with lies
Die, human, die

And while we're at it, let's go nuke Tibet
Let's vaporize the oceans with glee
Saving the whales an agenda for some
Nuking them sits well with me

Bring-bring back the bomb
(They know not what they do)
Bring-bring back the bomb
(They know not what they do)

Bring back the bomb it's been far too long
Summon the brazen war chariot

What makes it so wrong?