The Second Banana: Dirk vs. Manu

[Rodriguez]

I said he would play the Kobe role, I didn't say he was as good as Kobe. Dirk is 85% the player Kobe is anyways, and 85% Kobe >>> Manu.
Manu with injury can only play out 50% as he could have done, obviously a healthy Manu is better than Kobe, though he can rarely be healthy.

[leo_d]

Manu would need players like a Tim or Kobe to win. He could not be the number one option under any circumstances.

Exactly, the OP ask wich player would complement Duncan better, and i think that is manu, because his salary will let you have another stars on your team.

If im wrong what the fuck is Cuban waiting to go after Duncan and get the championship.

Nba rules of salary cap are specifically build so you don`t have two franchise players in your team, basically because you will have scrubs in the other positions.

But according to mavs fans it doesn`t matter and every gm in the nba is wrong.

[DAF86]

But Manu is not as good as Joe Johnson. Manu might average 20+, but his team would not be as good as Joes if you give them equal talent imo. Joe would be a guy who scores 20 almost every night and then he can go off for more.

Manu is a guy who would score 8,9,10 points on plenty of nights and then throw in some 20 point games and some 30+ point games every now and then. Manu could not play the minutes to be a number one option.

If you think that Joe Johnson is a better player than Manu then that's it, we're never going to be on the same page.

But I'm going to give it a last try:

Joe Johnson averaged 21 pts per game on 18 FG attemps last season... THAT'S HORRIBLE!!! if Manu would have the freedom to take 18 shots attempts per game he would never have 8, 9, 10 points nights. Switch Manu for Joe Johnson and the Hwaks would be a better team and San Antonio a worst one.

[DPG21920]

Exactly, the OP ask wich player would complement Duncan better, and i think that is manu, because his salary will let you have another stars on your team.

If im wrong what the fuck is Cuban waiting to go after Duncan and get the championship.

Nba rules of salary cap are specifically build so you don`t have two franchise players in your team, basically because you will have scrubs in the other positions.

But according to mavs fans it doesn`t matter and every gm in the nba is wrong.

OP was making the assumption salaries did not matter. He was speaking purely from a basketball stand point.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I said he would play the Kobe role, I didn't say he was as good as Kobe. Dirk is 85% the player Kobe is anyways, and 85% Kobe >>> Manu.


We learned in 2008 that 50% Manu < Sasha Vujacic

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's exactly what I'm saying, I'm not saying a team with Manu as their main guy would be a championship team but if a team lead by Joe Johnson can get to the second round of the playoffs, then a team lead by Ginobili could definitely do at least that.


Manu has never put up the numbers Joe Johnson put up this season (no, the numbers he put up in the Euroleague against non-NBA talent doesn't count).

[DPG21920]

If you think that Joe Johnson is a better player than Manu then that's it, we're never going to be on the same page.

But I'm going to give it a last try:

Joe Johnson averaged 21 pts per game on 18 FG attemps last season... THAT'S HORRIBLE!!! if Manu would have the freedom to take 18 shots attempts per game he would never have 8, 9, 10 points nights. Switch Manu for Joe Johnson and the Hwaks would be a better team and San Antonio a worst one.

Manu is much closer to Joe than Dirk as a player. I love Manu. I love what he brings to a team. I love that he plays on both ends of the floor. But he is in a perfect situation for him.

A team that is so good most of the time that they can afford to maximize his effectiveness by limiting his minutes and by having him play alongside Tim and TP.

[Findog]

If you think that Joe Johnson is a better player than Manu then that's it, we're never going to be on the same page.

But I'm going to give it a last try:

Joe Johnson averaged 21 pts per game on 18 FG attemps last season... THAT'S HORRIBLE!!! if Manu would have the freedom to take 18 shots attempts per game he would never have 8, 9, 10 points nights. Switch Manu for Joe Johnson and the Hwaks would be a better team and San Antonio a worst one.

If you're going to defend "Prime" Manu Ginobili, then don't cherrypick Joe Johnson's last season. One could make the argument that Ginobili gets better shot opportunities playing alongside Duncan and Parker, whereas Joe Johnson is his team's #1 option and the #1 focus of opposing defenses. This is a dimension that coaches, GMs and scouts grasp. Joe Johnson's best year saw him average 25 PPG on 47% shooting, along with 4 rebounds and 4 assists...for a thin Hawks team around him. That's better than Ginobili playing off the angles that are created for him by TP and Timmy.

[DPG21920]

Manu could also never play 40 minutes a night for 82 games like Joe or other top notch, number one options.

I do believe that Manu could score very well (like JJ) on the Hawks if given the opportunity. And if you look at extrapolated numbers and take them on face value you could make that argument.

But I argue that Manu would lose effectiveness if he played 40 MPG. He would not be able to score at the efficient pace he does if he had to play that long and carry an offense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The ultimate retarded argument is taking the 3rd wheel on a team's efficiency and projecting it over x amount of minutes and x amount of shots. If Manu played more minutes and took more shots, his efficiency would plummet, and he'd be done 30 games into the season.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And if you look at extrapolated numbers and take them on face value you could make that argument.


Except you can't do that. Basketball isn't played on a calculator, it's played on a basketball court.

[DPG21920]

Except you can't do that. Basketball isn't played on a calculator, it's played on a basketball court.

Read the rest of my post.

[leo_d]

OP was making the assumption salaries did not matter. He was speaking purely from a basketball stand point.

I didn`t see that assupmtion, but maybe you`re right, that`s why i still haven`t voted.

I think there is a reason why Dirk has a bigger paycheck than Manu and also why no team has put togheter a Duncan-Nowitzki combo.

[DAF86]

The ultimate retarded argument is taking the 3rd wheel on a team's efficiency and projecting it over x amount of minutes and x amount of shots. If Manu played more minutes and took more shots, his efficiency would plummet, and he'd be done 30 games into the season.

All the things you say he can't do he has done it almost his whole career (beign the number one option, playing close to 40 minutes per game for entire seasons, etc.) and he hasn't done any other thing besides winning so please stop inventing things to try to sell them as facts.

[Findog]

I think there is a reason why Dirk has a bigger paycheck than Manu and also why no team has put togheter a Duncan-Nowitzki combo.

The reason no team has put together a Duncan-Dirk combo is because the Mavericks have held his rights since draft night and would hang up if the Spurs called offering anything less than Duncan.

[DPG21920]

I didn`t see that assupmtion, but maybe you`re right, that`s why i still haven`t voted.

I think there is a reason why Dirk has a bigger paycheck than Manu and also why no team has put togheter a Duncan-Nowitzki combo.

Ya, it was sort of implied. This was saying, if money was not an issue, and you could choose Duncan+Dirk+Finley+Very Mediocre Player+Parker or Duncan+Bonner+Finley+Manu+Parker who would you take from a basketball standpoint as a compliment to Duncan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

All the things you say he can't do he has done it almost his whole career (beign the number one option, playing close to 40 minutes per game for entire seasons, etc.) and he hasn't done any other thing besides winning so please stop inventing things to try to sell them as facts.


Please stop trying to use his minor league achievements as NBA achievements.

[Findog]

All the things you say he can't do he has done it almost his whole career (beign the number one option, playing close to 40 minutes per game for entire seasons, etc.) and he hasn't done any other thing besides winning so please stop inventing things to try to sell them as facts.

When has he done this?

[DPG21920]

All the things you say he can't do he has done it almost his whole career (beign the number one option, playing close to 40 minutes per game for entire seasons, etc.) and he hasn't done any other thing besides winning so please stop inventing things to try to sell them as facts.

Yes, but you are using something that is not apples to apples. Leading an NBA team as a number 1 option while playing 40MPG over 82 games is much different than leading a Euro team playing a different style, with less competition and a much shorter season.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When has he done this?


Playing for his local team (the Argentine Nazi lovers).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yes, but you are using something that is not apples to apples. Leading an NBA team as a number 1 option while playing 40MPG over 82 games is much different than leading a Euro team playing a different style, with less competition and a much shorter season.


Not in DAF86's mind it isn't. DAF86 is like KBP, the only difference is he isn't a troll, he really thinks Euroleague = NBA.

[ElNono]

I think the original proposition is where everything is lost.
If you take out the 'second banana' argument and limit the proposition to the offensive game, then you have much more clear cut point that Dirk offers more than Manu.
The entire 'second banana' already predisposes you to think everything runs through Duncan, and the rest gets the leftovers, be it Manu or Dirk.
The Spurs would simply play different if they had an option like Dirk instead of Manu.
We can argue if it's better, worse, or anything in between, but it's most definitely different.

[DAF86]

Please stop trying to use his minor league achievements as NBA achievements.

The energy you spend to play FIBA basketball is the same you spend on the NBA, in fact FIBA ball is a lot more physical.

[DPG21920]

No one is saying Manu is not a fantastic player. Everyone respects him and he has his moments where he looks like one of the best players in the NBA. He is a great teammate and competitor and has that "it" factor.

But he is not on the same level as some of the players mentioned in this thread.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The energy you spend to play FIBA basketball is the same you spend on the NBA


:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If FIBA is so much better than the NBA, why do you post in NBA forums?

[Findog]

No one is saying Manu is not a fantastic player. Everyone respects him and he has his moments where he looks like one of the best players in the NBA. He is a great teammate and competitor and has that "it" factor.

I agree. Manu is a winner. He kills himself physically for the teams he plays for. He is unselfish, but not afraid to take big shots for his teams. He doesn't take plays off. He plays without fear and is a warrior. That said...


But he is not on the same level as some of the players mentioned in this thread.

QFT. Mainly just his inconsistency than anything else. He's breathtakingly brilliant some nights and an invisible non-factor others. Dirk is better AND more consistent.

[dirk4mvp]

If FIBA is so much better than the NBA, why do you post in NBA forums?

He looks down at us NBA fans with pity knowing his league is better and "a lot more physical".

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's funny cause I've never been a Manu hater at all, in fact the Parker fans on this site underrate the hell out of him, but it's not even a close call Dirk > Manu as the 1st or 2nd option.

[Sec24Row7]

Manu + Tim = 3 championships... hard to say Tim and Dirk would be any better...

[ElNono]

I don't see the claim that FIBA is so much better than the NBA... quote please?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He looks down at us NBA fans with pity knowing his league is better and "a lot more physical".


:lmao Eurofag leagues are more physical.....just cause the queers that play in Europe fall down a lot more and make it look like it's more physical, doesn't mean it is. In America we have this thing called dignity and pride, which means not looking like a puss trying to draw a foul.

[dirk4mvp]

:jack

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't see the claim that FIBA is so much better than the NBA... quote please?


See my sig.

[ElNono]

:lmao Eurofag leagues are more physical.....just cause the queers that play in Europe fall down a lot more and make it look like it's more physical, doesn't mean it is. In America we have this thing called dignity and pride, which means not looking like a puss trying to draw a foul.

Derek Fisher called. He wants a word with you.

[Findog]

Manu + Tim = 3 championships... hard to say Tim and Dirk would be any better...

In an era when the Spurs, Mavs and Suns were 3 of the top 4 or 5 teams in the League? I think the Spurs unquestionably do just as well, if not better. Dallas would've been eliminated as a rival, so only Phoenix and whatever shitball Eastern team made it out of that bracket would've been standing in their way.

[ElNono]

See my sig.

Ahh... I have sigs disabled. Carry on!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Derek Fisher called. He wants a word with you.


He learned from the best......Vlade Divac......all I know is, before Europeans came along, no one flopped. The NBA was about toughness before men that wore purses started to play.

[ElNono]

In an era when the Spurs, Mavs and Suns were 3 of the top 4 or 5 teams in the League? I think the Spurs unquestionably do just as well, if not better, because Dallas would've been eliminated as a rival.

Well, it's not like Dallas was a rival until 2006, really. But I do get your point.

[DAF86]

Not in DAF86's mind it isn't. DAF86 is like KBP, the only difference is he isn't a troll, he really thinks Euroleague = NBA.


Manu has been a number one guy on all of his teams except the Spurs and all those teams won championships. Granted, FIBA isn't at the same level as the NBA but if a guy is inconsistent it doesn't matter at which level he plays he will still be inconsistent, and an inconsistent "franchise player" can't lead his team to a championship, at least not as regularly as Manu has lead his teams to championships.

Really stop the making shit up... or don't... what do I care?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Really stop the making shit up... or don't... what do I care?


I'll stop making shit up the day you admit Manu's gold medals and Euroleague achievements are irrelevant to the NBA....until then, I have the right to be as dumb as you.

[DPG21920]

QFT. Mainly just his inconsistency than anything else. He's breathtakingly brilliant some nights and an invisible non-factor others. Dirk is better AND more consistent.

That is what I said.

[Findog]

Well, it's not like Dallas was a rival until 2006, really. But I do get your point.

Threat, Rival, whatever you want to call it. Point is the same. One less obstacle.

[ElNono]

He learned from the best......Vlade Divac......all I know is, before Europeans came along, no one flopped. The NBA was about toughness before men that wore purses started to play.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night...
Flopping exists and it spread because it's a successful play. You can cut it any way you want it, and I personally hate when it's so blatant, but if they get away with it, then you can't blame the player for it.

[DAF86]

See my sig.

What it says in your sig is absolutely true, you can also rephrase it like: "most people in the world don't give a fuck about basketball" but you have your head to deep inside your ass to realize it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why is it Spurfan glorifies every Mavs player that plays well against SA (Bass, Diop, Harris) except for Dirk? It mystifies me.

[dirk4mvp]

Why is it Spurfan glorifies every Mavs player that plays well against SA (Bass, Diop, Harris) except for Dirk? It mystifies me.

If he left the Mavs, they would no doubt refer to him as Dirk Bird Nowitzki.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Whatever makes you sleep better at night...
Flopping exists and it spread because it's a successful play. You can cut it any way you want it, and I personally hate when it's so blatant, but if they get away with it, then you can't blame the player for it.


I hate it, and unlike a lot of Suns fans, I know every team does it, not just the Spurs. Just making sure you know it's not an angry Suns fan speaking out of frustration saying,"Flopping sucks."

[Findog]

Why is it Spurfan glorifies every Mavs player that plays well against SA (Bass, Diop, Harris) except for Dirk? It mystifies me.

DeSagana Diop is a muthafuckin' BEAST!

[ElNono]

I hate it, and unlike a lot of Suns fans, I know every team does it, not just the Spurs. Just making sure you know it's not an angry Suns fan speaking out of frustration saying,"Flopping sucks."

I gotcha. Nash has grown a nasty habit at it too. But you can't blame them if the league keeps on buying it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If he left the Mavs, they would no doubt refer to him as Dirk Bird Nowitzki.


Just like Brandon Worthy Bass

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I gotcha. Nash has grown a nasty habit at it too. But you can't blame them if the league keeps on buying it.


Nash is just as bad as anyone else.....Bell as well.

[Findog]

Just like Brandon Worthy Bass



Brad Davis = White Vinnie Johnson

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DeSagana Diop is a muthafuckin' BEAST!


You could make an argument Devin Harris for Kidd was a bigger heist than Joe Barry Carroll for McHale and Parish.

[Findog]

You could make an argument Devin Harris for Kidd was a bigger heist than Joe Barry Carroll for McHale and Parish.

It was a worse trade than Brian Winters for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Harris led the Nets to 33 wins and 10th place in the East, whereas Jason Kidd and the Mavs won a playoff series in a tough Western Conference.

* Gah, I can't defend that trade. Still, not as bad as people make it out to be...especially since they'll make the playoffs and not surrender a lottery pick. Not worth doing, but hardly a trade that will set the franchise back years or something. I don't think Harris is going to get better than what he is right now.

[DAF86]

You could make an argument Devin Harris for Kidd was a bigger heist than Joe Barry Carroll for McHale and Parish.

Devin Harris > Kidd - right now.

and... Devin Harris > > > > > Kidd causing matchup problems against the Spurs (Who will be the first to make a 4-1 joke?)

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

^

I agree it was a crappy trade, but the Jet and Dirk don't have the year they had if Harris is playing point rather than Kidd.

[dirk4mvp]

The Spurs should trade Manu while he still has some value.

[ElNono]

The thing with Bass was that here was a young guy beasting, while we looked at our team and had Matt fucking Bonner. I mean, it's not complicated to see what's up.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My point is, it was a bad trade, but it's over blown. It's not like Dallas would be the next 86 Celtics w/ Harris.

[ElNono]

The Spurs should trade Manu while he still has some value.

And they might depending on how he comes back. But right now it's retarded, since he probably has the lowest value ever.

[Findog]

^

I agree it was a crappy trade, but the Jet and Dirk don't have the year they had if Harris is playing point rather than Kidd.

Harris is VERY one-dimensional. He gave the Spurs fits, but the Mavs had no problems with San Antonio anyways. Harris is basically Barbosa with a little better jump shot. His rep as a good defender is a bit overblown, and he's actually a very indifferent defender for Frank. He's not a true QB, so he doesn't see the floor or facilitate for his teammates that well. He's a VERY, VERY good one-on-one player. If you look at what he did in Jersey, his increased #s are simply a result of more touches and playing time. What he did in Dallas is what he would've continued to do.

[ElNono]

I think Dallas gave too much for Kidd, and he was simply not going to put the over the top. Not in this Western Conference. I really expected Cubes to make a move like that for a BIG (which kind of brings us back to the point in this thread), but not for a PG.

[DAF86]

My point is, it was a bad trade, but it's over blown. It's not like Dallas would be the next 86 Celtics w/ Harris.

IMO they would still be an elite team if it wasn't for that trade. And in 2007/08 it would have been Lakers vs Mavs instead of Lakers vs Spurs in the WCF (and I think Dallas would have had a more than decent chance of producing the upset)

[Findog]

I think Dallas gave too much for Kidd, and he was simply not going to put the over the top. Not in this Western Conference. I really expected Cubes to make a move like that for a BIG (which kind of brings us back to the point in this thread), but not for a PG.

They did indeed. They had to give up $20 million worth of assets for Kidd when he doesn't have that kind of value. If it had just been Harris for Kidd straight up, to me it's a no brainer. Harris' future doesn't tantalize me that much.

[Blackjack]

How could you not fully reap the benefits of Dirk's game? 90% of Dirks game is perimeter oriented and Duncan during his prime was most effective on the block. As it was said earlier, Dirk is really not a 4...he is more like a SG in a 7 foot body. If anything, you enhance the abilities of Dirk and Duncan.

Because you're only looking at how their skillsets compliment each other offensively and not taking into account the many other variables.

I don't disagree they'd play well off of each other offensively but I believe your OP was who would essentially compliment Tim better playing at the peak of their game.

Given that premise, and I assumed you meant in terms of winning a championship, I'd take the '08 Manu who was the second best 2-guard and best closer in the league that year.



I don't get your argument here. Duncan in his prime was best on the block. His shooting keeps defenders honest but his footwork around the rim is what makes him great. Dirk is great at dragging defenders away from the rim and shooting over them. Furthermore, Dirk would lessen some of that burden because he would lighten Duncan's offensive load.

Duncan at his best was a 4.

Yes, he was a bit of a hybrid, in that he played more of the traditional pivot offensively, but who did he guard?

Tim is one of the greatest team defenders in the history of the NBA but he was never a spectacular man defender. You force him to to have to guard the Shaq's/Howard's of the world and you're taking away one of his greatest strengths.

So, yeah. Tim and Dirk could could be a nightmare at times offensively but you'd be taking away from Tim's game defensively runnin' him out at the 5 and you'd reduce Dirk's effectiveness, seeing that you wouldn't run the offense through him to fully realize his really great one trick.



Good points...but I would counter with who would be better over a full season. Manu in his prime is still at a high risk for injury. He plays balls out every night and there have been more than one postseason where we have either seen him ineffective or sitting in a suit. Dirk is not going to take the kind of abuse that Manu would take and has far less of a chance of injury. He could play more minutes and he could be used with small ball lineups that would be completely and totally dominant. Plus there is always the good Manu/bad Manu scenario. Even in his prime, Manu could go for 40 and then disappear for several games. Manu has intangibles, but if you are going to grind out a whole season Dirk is the better choice. A Dirk and Duncan front line gives you a much better chance with matchups and adjustments on the fly during a 7 game series, as you can go with a quicker or more traditional lineup....and use a 7 footer in either one.

This thread really got derailed from the original premise, well, at least the premise I assumed when responding, but I guess it's to be expected.:lol

Look, for all those who are trying to argue who is better, Manu v Dirk, there's a pretty sound reason for the salary discrepancy and it has nothing to do with Cuban's perceived stupidity. So, I'm not arguing that.

But, if you're asking a hypothetical question of who gives you the better chance to win a championship as a compliment to Tim, given they're playing at the peak of their game, I'm going to argue Manu 7 days a week. It's just my belief that both Tim and Dirk, for different reasons, played their best at the 4.

Now, If you could legitimately play Dirk at the 3, Tim at the 4, and a modern day Parrish at the 5? I could definitely change my tune..

I just don't see that as feasible.

I was coming from a viewpoint of, "If the playoffs were about to start and I had a prime, healthy Manu or Dirk to choose from to put alongside Tim to get the job done, who would I roll with?", when responding to the OP. Now, maybe that's not what you intended but that's where I was coming from.


While, I don't dismiss the notion that Tim and Dirk would play well off each other offensively, I do question the pros and cons overall.

I just see Dirk becoming more like the guy before '06, who floated on the perimeter and wasn't nearly the player he's become, if you're running the offense through Tim. And, if you combined that with his less than stellar D at the 4 while compromising Timmy's all-world team defense playing him at the 5, I just don't see that as being an ideal second banana.

He'd be one hell of a second banana to the right player, I just don't think Tim's that guy.

[Findog]

IMO they would still be an elite team if it wasn't for that trade. And in 2007/08 it would have been Lakers vs Mavs instead of Lakers vs Spurs in the WCF (and I think Dallas would have had a more than decent chance of producing the upset)

Only if they had fired Avery before contemplating trading Devin. The team with Avery as the HC and Devin as the starting PG was done. Avery had lost them at that point.

[DAF86]

The Spurs should trade Manu while he still has some value.

I would definitely try a Manu (plus something else to atract even more attention from the Raptors) for Bosh (suposing that the "Bosh is on the move" rumours are real)

[DAF86]

Given that premise, and I assumed you meant in terms of winning a championship, I'd take the '08 Manu who was the second best 2-guard and best closer in the league that year.

Manu in '05 >>> Manu in '08 - even if the stats say other wise.

[Blackjack]

Manu in '05 >>> Manu in '08 - even if the stats say other wise.

I disagree.

More spectacular because of his playoff run, but Manu was absolutely dominant before the injury in '08.

I still laugh every time I envision the performance he put on against LeBron in Cleveland..

Some of those shots were just ridiculous.:wow

[TMTTRIO]

The thing is there are a whole lot of players in the league that is just as talented or is better than Manu was in his prime at least scoring wise. Manu's problem is playing well consistently and we can play this game of what if he wasn't the third scoring option on this team and had more than 10 or 11 shots but it's going to be hard to tell what he'd do. Like everyone said he's shown flashes that he could carry the Spurs team when Tim and Tony were both injured so who knows. The thing that Manu's best at is knowing what the team needs (whether it's a steal, block, scoring, FT) and providing it at the right time when the team needs it. He's better at doing the little stuff that doesn't get noticed but does make a difference so he's probably better as a second or third option.

[ElNono]

I disagree.

More spectacular because of his playoff run, but Manu was absolutely dominant before the injury in '08.

I still laugh every time I envision the performance he put on against LeBron in Cleveland..

Some of those shots were just ridiculous.:wow

Spurs top scorer that season, IIRC.

[Blackjack]

Yup.:tu

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

OK, I think it's a bit much to call Devin Harris Leandro Barbosa with a jump shot.....Barbosa doesn't have anywhere near the handles Harris does. Barbosa is basically a quick version of Roger Mason.

[Findog]

OK, I think it's a bit much to call Devin Harris Leandro Barbosa with a jump shot.....Barbosa doesn't have anywhere near the handles Harris does. Barbosa is basically a quick version of Roger Mason.

Yeah, I think you're right. He's definitely a lot more polished than Barbosa.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah, I think you're right. He's definitely a lot more polished than Barbosa.


Not like that's hard or anything, I'm just saying. I feel bad for Barbosa cause he has the talent and attitude of an all star, but he's just so fuckin stupid that he ceiling is a stupid one dimensional fuck that can finish fast breaks and come off screens.

[Blackjack]

Not like that's hard or anything, I'm just saying. I feel bad for Barbosa cause he has the talent and attitude of an all star, but he's just so fuckin stupid that he ceiling is a stupid one dimensional fuck that can finish fast breaks and come off screens.

Not that it's of any relevance, but does Barbosa ever dunk?

I think I've seen him do it a couple of times, not positive, but it almost seems he could have one of those Payton dunkless streaks going.:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not that it's of any relevance, but does Barbosa ever dunk?

I think I've seen him do it a couple of times, not positive, but it almost seems he could have one of those Payton dunkless streaks going.:lol


I've never seen him dunk, I too don't understand why someone as lanky as he is who can jump as high as he can never dunks. If I could dunk I would :lol

[Blackjack]

If I thought my knees would follow me, I'd love to have that feeling again.:lol

I've seen the guy play plenty of times and I just could't help but notice that he'd always lay it in, even if he had clear sailing.

It kind of boggles the mind that a young guy like that, with that much explosiveness, never has the urge to just throw one down..

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

^that's why I feel bad for him. Humble as can be, works as hard as he can, but he's just so dumb he can only work so hard before his brain needs a break or it'll forget a ball handling drill.

[benefactor]

No one is saying Manu is not a fantastic player. Everyone respects him and he has his moments where he looks like one of the best players in the NBA. He is a great teammate and competitor and has that "it" factor.

But he is not on the same level as some of the players mentioned in this thread.
This.......

[sonic21]

All the things you say he can't do he has done it almost his whole career (beign the number one option, playing close to 40 minutes per game for entire seasons, etc.) and he hasn't done any other thing besides winning so please stop inventing things to try to sell them as facts.

a fiba game lasts 40 min. His team in italy was stacked, like the argie NT. He was the best player but I don't think he's ever played 35 min per game in a season.

[urunobili]

IIRC Manu went apeshit on back to back wins against both the Jazz and the Mavs while TD got injured in 2007/2008... he shit on Dirk and the whole Mavs squad for 37 pts (he also scored the same amount vs the Jazz)... he was the main gun there and that should be a flash of what can Manu do as the franchise player... I can bring more than 50 games of his NBA career with examples like this... :wakeup

[jajaja2004]

i like NBA............:toast
www.nowgoal.com/25.shtml (http://www.nowgoal.com/25.shtml)

[Rodriguez]

IIRC Manu went apeshit on back to back wins against both the Jazz and the Mavs while TD got injured in 2007/2008... he shit on Dirk and the whole Mavs squad for 37 pts (he also scored the same amount vs the Jazz)... he was the main gun there and that should be a flash of what can Manu do as the franchise player... I can bring more than 50 games of his NBA career with examples like this... :wakeup
but how did he get himself injured that year, and consequently caused the Spurs to get ass raped by the Lakers in the western conference finals?

[urunobili]

but how did he get himself injured that year, and consequently caused the Spurs to get ass raped by the Lakers in the western conference finals?

Same way Dirk did in 2004... :wakeup

difference is... we were the ones fucking you up and Manu ended up Kissing Larry O'Brian for the first time :toast

[Rodriguez]

Same way Dirk did in 2004... :wakeup

difference is... we were the ones fucking you up and Manu ended up Kissing Larry O'Brian for the first time :toast
The Spurs are only a great team when they can avoid Mavs, honestly I can't remember a playoffs series the Spurs won over Mavs in recent years. However, when the Spurs met Mavs in 06, 09, the winners were always Mavs.

[urunobili]

The Spurs are only a great team when they can avoid Mavs, honestly I can't remember a playoffs series the Spurs won over Mavs in recent years. However, when the Spurs met Mavs in 06, 09, the winners were always Mavs.

enjoy your semi glory of defeating the team you were designed to copycat... :lol

[Rodriguez]

enjoy your semi glory of defeating the team you were designed to copycat... :lol
defeat is defeat, isn't it?

[urunobili]

defeat is defeat, isn't it?

you get over it pretty easily when you have 4 trophies already my boy... plus.. you get to enjoy seeing either Melo or D-Whistle shit on the Mavs... or even better Dirk choking when it matters... priceless...

[Rodriguez]

you get over it pretty easily when you have 4 trophies already my boy... plus.. you get to enjoy seeing either Melo or D-Whistle shit on the Mavs... or even better Dirk choking when it matters... priceless...
cuatro anillos, puta.

[dbestpro]

Who gives a fuck what casual fans think? Dirk will be remembered better than Manu.

And btw, to answer your question: Before his injury, King. After his injury, Dumars.



Robert Horry has 7 rings; Dirk has 0. Ergo, Robert Horry > Dirk.

You can bet that in 20-30 years if Dirk does not win a ring, Horry will be a much more remembered player and Dirk will be just another in the long line of NBA players that scored a bunch of points. It has always been about the rings. I understand that you have to try and make it about something else. What else can you do? The only time you get to see an O'Brien Trophy is when you visit San Antonio.

[Rodriguez]

You can bet that in 20-30 years if Dirk does not win a ring, Horry will be a much more remembered player and Dirk will be just another in the long line of NBA players that scored a bunch of points. It has always been about the rings. I understand that you have to try and make it about something else. What else can you do? The only time you get to see an O'Brien Trophy is when you visit San Antonio.
I can also visit LA to have a look at the O'Brien Trophy. Plus, don't you think it's still too early to judge Dirk will retire without a ring? Even if Dirk wouldn't gain a ring unluckily, there will still be more people remembering Dirk than those remembering Dick Breath who has 3. Don't tell me you know everyone on the 91-93 and 96-98 bulls rosters while haven't heard about Carl Malone, Stockton, Charles Barkley, etc...

[dbestpro]

I can also visit LA to have a look at the O'Brien Trophy. ..

Yeah, but but you can't afford the extra bus fair.

[Findog]

You can bet that in 20-30 years if Dirk does not win a ring, Horry will be a much more remembered player and Dirk will be just another in the long line of NBA players that scored a bunch of points.

This is true. Nobody remembers Pistol Pete Maravich, who retired a ringless loser. But they do remember Charles Johnson, who won a ring with the 1975 Golden State Warriors.


It has always been about the rings. I understand that you have to try and make it about something else.

No, this thread is about who is a better player, Dirk or Manu, and which one would complement Duncan better. Since the obvious answer is Dirk, I understand that you have to try and make it about irrelevant ring smack.


What else can you do? The only time you get to see an O'Brien Trophy is when you visit San Antonio

Why would I visit San Antonio? What is there that I would want to see? I like my women under 3 bills.

[Rodriguez]

Yeah, but but you can't afford the extra bus fair.
Cuban will be generous enough to take the bills, unlike a cheapass owner that cuts Tim Duncan's salary in the only order to avoid luxury tax.

[Findog]

IIRC Manu went apeshit on back to back wins against both the Jazz and the Mavs while TD got injured in 2007/2008...

So what? The Clippers won 19 games last year. They looked awfully good in those 19 games.




he was the main gun there and that should be a flash of what can Manu do as the franchise player...

Exactly. Manu only demonstrates flashes of brilliance. For every 37 point explosion, he has two more games where he's invisible.

[Rogue]

http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Ring-Pops-36CT-Box/1/000/006/272/082/627208259.jpg Spurs fans have been enjoying this for years, they suck it every time their butts hurt, period.

[Findog]

http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Ring-Pops-36CT-Box/1/000/006/272/082/627208259.jpg Spurs fans have been enjoying this for years, they suck it every time their butts hurt, period.

There's a lot of sore asses in this thread, all covered in black and silver. The most hilarious thing is when they resort to ring smack when they lose an argument. Doesn't matter what the argument is, they bring it in when it has no relevance. :lmao

[sonic21]

http://img01.static-nextag.com/image/Ring-Pops-36CT-Box/1/000/006/272/082/627208259.jpg some Spurs fans have been enjoying this for years, they suck it every time their butts hurt, period.

fify

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

cuatro anillos, puta!

[urunobili]

There's a lot of sore asses in this thread, all covered in black and silver.

:lol you really are funny... times 4 sore ass... the second best thing for a Spur fan after winning another ring is watching the Mavs lose... i bet you know that already... and in both 06 and 09 we enjoyed the hell out of the ride believe me... :toast


The most hilarious thing is when they resort to ring smack when they lose an argument. Doesn't matter what the argument is, they bring it in when it has no relevance. :lmao

link to no relevance? :king

[Findog]

link to no relevance? :king

This thread is about which player would make the Spurs better, Manu or Dirk. It's a pretty easy question, and when some butthurt Manu fans can't accept the obvious answer, they just fall back on ring smack.

[diego]

I'm having a hard time deciding what is stupider:

arguing that manu is even close to dirk as a franchise player, or that Joe Johnson is better than manu because he averages more ppg on a crappy team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

or that Joe Johnson is better than manu because he averages more ppg on a crappy team.


His team just made the 2nd round. It's no longer a crappy team. It's safe to say that if Manu was on that team instead of JJ it wouldn't have made the 2nd round.

[Findog]

I'm having a hard time deciding what is stupider:

arguing that manu is even close to dirk as a franchise player, or that Joe Johnson is better than manu because he averages more ppg on a crappy team.

Joe Johnson's best season was in 2007: 25 ppg on 47% shooting, including 38% from behind the arc, while also throwing in 4 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 steal per game. This as a #1 option that is the primary focus of opposing defenses.

Manu Ginobili's best season was in 2008: 20 ppg on 46% shooting, including 40% from behind the arc, while also throwing in 5 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals per game. This as a #3 option getting good looks playing alongside Tim Duncan and Tony Parker.

You can make an argument that Manu in his prime was better than JJ in his prime, but it's hardly heresy to suggest the opposite.

[TMTTRIO]

Manu Ginobili's best season was in 2008: 20 ppg on 46% shooting, including 40% from behind the arc, while also throwing in 5 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals. This as a #3 option getting good looks playing alongside Tim Duncan and Tony Parker.

To be fair a lot of that was when Tim and Tony were both out injured and Manu was the main guy and carrying the load

[Rodriguez]

To be fair a lot of that was when Tim and Tony were both out injured and Manu was the main guy and carrying the load
fair and balanced, exactly like fox news talk.

[weebo]

They did indeed. They had to give up $20 million worth of assets for Kidd when he doesn't have that kind of value. If it had just been Harris for Kidd straight up, to me it's a no brainer. Harris' future doesn't tantalize me that much.

Shut up already. You must be smoking on some good shit to think that DHarris doesn't have more of an upside than a has been like Kidd. But go ahead and keep trying to convince yourself and others here that Kidd for DHarris was such a great deal for the Mavs. Quit being such a fucking homer.

[benefactor]

Good lawd...we have gone from homer Manu arguments to ring smack. Spur fan is in rare form.....

http://theshentontimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/blank-facepalm.gif

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Dirk.

[urunobili]

Good lawd...we have gone from homer Manu arguments to ring smack. Spur fan is in rare form.....

You're starting to sound like a Laker fan troll... make up your mind who you're rooting for this is a Spurs board not an objectivity point of views forum... :wakeup

[benefactor]

Dirk.
Correct.

[benefactor]

You're starting to sound like a Laker fan troll... make up your mind who you're rooting for this is a Spurs board not an objectivity point of views forum... :wakeup
Forgive my ignorance...as I said before I underestimated my brethren. I repent and it will not happen again.

[urunobili]

:lol at the supposedly Spurs fans whining because we have Manu's back instead of being the "you MUST be objective" they are trying to preach... Mod complex full fledged.. and a failing one...

[Findog]

Shut up already.

You know you're winning an argument when you get told to "shut up." Excuse me, but are you a moderator? If you are, take away my commenting privileges. If not, then deal with it.


You must be smoking on some good shit to think that DHarris doesn't have more of an upside than a has been like Kidd.

Find the quote where I said a 36 year old Kidd has a better NBA future than a 25 year old Harris.


But go ahead and keep trying to convince yourself and others here that Kidd for DHarris was such a great deal for the Mavs. Quit being such a fucking homer.

Find the quote where I said I approved of and backed the trade. Here, let me help you out:


* Gah, I can't defend that trade. Still, not as bad as people make it out to be...especially since they'll make the playoffs and not surrender a lottery pick. Not worth doing, but hardly a trade that will set the franchise back years or something. I don't think Harris is going to get better than what he is right now.


Do they teach literacy in San Antonio public schools?

[benefactor]

:lol at the supposedly Spurs fans whining because we have Manu's back instead of being the "you MUST be objective" they are trying to preach... Mod complex full fledged.. and a failing one...
I am a basketball fan first...Spurs fan second. It makes for a more healthy relationship. As I said earlier, you can be a homer if you want...just don't expect to argue with anyone and have them take you seriously and don't get pissed when they laugh at you.

[Findog]

I am a basketball fan first...Spurs fan second. It makes for a more healthy relationship. As I said earlier, you can be a homer if you want...just don't expect to argue with anyone and have them take you seriously and don't get pissed when they laugh at you.

We all root for our teams fiercely and passionately, but most of us don't want to watch basketball with blinders on.

[benefactor]

We all root for our teams fiercely and passionately, but most of us don't want to watch basketball with blinders on.
Well said. :tu

[urunobili]

I am a basketball fan first...Spurs fan second. It makes for a more healthy relationship. As I said earlier, you can be a homer if you want...just don't expect to argue with anyone and have them take you seriously and don't get pissed when they laugh at you.

:lmao link to where I have EVER cried about another poster laughing at me?

Mav fans generally have to throw shit like: "go back to your third world shithole country" when they're unsuccessfully trying to get in my head...

As you live in DFW... you should go get a Terry jersey... he is a a great ball player and you are a basketball fan first... :lol

[DaBears]

Manu's character and personality has shouwn that he would be a better fit to be 2nd option. Dirk wouldnt or couldnt allow himself to be a second option. his deamnor is just not that way.....I dont see him playing well with another top flight player. Taken his limelight and amount of hail mary lucky ass shots....

[Findog]

Manu's character and personality has shouwn that he would be a better fit to be 2nd option. Dirk wouldnt or couldnt allow himself to be a second option. his deamnor is just not that way....

Dirk is unselfish, has no ego, is team-oriented and cares about winning more than anything else. In other words, he's very Spur-like. Just another pro-Manu post in this thread so full of fail. If Kobe and Shaq could co-exist long enough to win 3 titles together, I'm pretty sure two guys with the character of Duncan and Dirk could find a way to get along.

[weebo]

DHarris: 08-09

44% FG
6.9 APG
21 PPG

Jason Kidd: 08-09

41% FG
9 APG
9 PPG

"...but hardly a trade that will set the franchise back years or something. I don't think Harris is going to get better than what he is right now."

So do you still think DHarris won't get better? An improving DHarris greater than a declining Kidd. Facts are facts. Reread your own damn quote and open your eyes because the DHarris for Kidd trade will set the Mavs back years. After your aging one trick pony "franchise" player retires, who will be the top dog on the Mavs squad?

[weebo]

Dirk is unselfish, has no ego, is team-oriented and cares about winning more than anything else. In other words, he's very Spur-like. Just another pro-Manu post in this thread so full of fail. If Kobe and Shaq could co-exist long enough to win 3 titles together, I'm pretty sure two guys with the character of Duncan and Dirk could find a way to get along.

What has he ever won?? And ya a no defense playing hack is really Spur-like:lmao

[Findog]

So do you still think DHarris won't get better?

I don't see his game expounding by leaps and bounds beyond what it is now. I only see marginal improvement. In any event, even if Devin Harris' game stays where it's at, he will be playing while Kidd is retired. So of course Harris has a brighter future than Kidd, unless the Mavs somehow win a title within the next three years. But that's not the point I was arguing.



An improving DHarris greater than a declining Kidd.

The Mavs are in win-now mode. I personally didn't want them to do the trade, but there's no way you can convince me Harris makes us a better team last year than Kidd. He doesn't play defense for Lawrence Frank the way he did for Avery Johnson. He doesn't make his teammates better. He's not a quarterback who can facilitate an offense and create for his teammates. He's a VERY GOOD one-on-one player, essentially a homeless man's Allen Iverson, but he's not worth building a team around. The only thing he's doing better in Jersey than Dallas is his slightly greater ability to get to the FT line. Everything else is simply playing more minutes and getting more touches as a co-#1 option. He'd still be the 3rd or 4th option in Dallas.




Facts are facts. Reread your own damn quote and open your eyes because the DHarris for Kidd trade will set the Mavs back years.

You're right. He led the Nets to 33 wins and the 10th seed, whereas the Mavs could only manage a first-round series win and be one of 8 teams left standing. The Mavs are reeeeeeeling from that trade.


After your franchise player retires, who will be the top dog on the Mavs squad?

Dunno. But that's the nice thing about having an owner with deep pockets who wants to win. The Mavs traded away a #3 guy. Whoop-de-fucking-do, Cuban will sign another one when he needs to.

[dbestpro]

This thread is about which player would make the Spurs better, Manu or Dirk. It's a pretty easy question, and when some butthurt Manu fans can't accept the obvious answer, they just fall back on ring smack.

You're starting to sound like Pelosi. Your opinion is your opinion and when people disagree it means that there is room for you to be wrong. Dirk is backed by stats and conjecture, Manu is backed by real success.
In the words of Jack, "You can't handle the truth."

You may now kiss the ring(s).

[Findog]

What has he ever won??

He took a team with Jason Terry and Josh Howard as his backup to the Finals. Manu can't do that.



And ya a no defense playing hack is really Spur-like


Yep, that's why Popovich would never let players like Michael Finley and Matt Bonner see the floor, and why he would pinch his nose and make a "What's that smell?" face if you ever suggested Dirk on the Spurs to him.

This is too easy. :lmao

[Findog]

You're starting to sound like Pelosi. Your opinion is your opinion and when people disagree it means that there is room for you to be wrong.

No, it's not an opinion to say Dirk is better than Manu, or the Spurs would easily duplicate that success if they swapped out.


Dirk is backed by stats and conjecture,

Along with anybody who has ever seen the two play and been forced to make a judgment about which player is better.




You may now kiss the ring(s)

Robert Horry was a better player in his prime than Dirk Nowitzki.

[dbestpro]

Some Mav fans are just living in the woodwork of this thread. Anybody got a can of Raid.

[ambchang]

Seems like there are 88 Manu fans on this forum.

[Findog]

Some Mav fans are just living in the woodwork of this thread. Anybody got a can of Raid.

"Mommy Moderator! Make them stop!"

Stop whining and back up your arguments with facts and logic. Don't complain like some whiny pussy crybaby bitch.

[Muser]

This is still going?

[benefactor]

:lmao link to where I have EVER cried about another poster laughing at me?

Mav fans generally have to throw shit like: "go back to your third world shithole country" when they're unsuccessfully trying to get in my head...

As you live in DFW... you should go get a Terry jersey... he is a a great ball player and you are a basketball fan first... :lol
I never said you did...I was inferring that this was the normal M.O. for homers. BTW, I don't live in DFW.

I just love how certain subjects bring out the douchebag in some normally good posters.

[Findog]

This is still going?

Maybe Kori or timvp need to lock it so butthurt Manu fan doesn't own himself any further. :lol

[Muser]

Holy shit Manu has 89 votes, damn I wish this was public.

[LionZion]

So swapping Manu out for Dirk would have been a surefire 5+ rings now eh?
So a lot of you guys here have an "A" in classic crystall ball theory and its consequences.

Adding Karl Malone and Gary Payton to Kobe and Shaq is also of course a surefire title right?...right?...am I right?

[Findog]

So swapping Manu out for Dirk would have been a surefire 5+ rings now eh?

You don't think the Spurs win 3 rings with Dallas eliminated as a threat?





Adding Karl Malone and Gary Payton to Kobe and Shaq is also of course a surefire title right?...right?...am I right?

Well, those guys were role players at the twilight of their careers, whereas Dirk was in the prime of his career from 2003 to 2007. Good analogy :tu

[Muser]

:lmao @ Comparing washed up Malone and Payton to Duncan and Dirk in their primes.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Adding Karl Malone and Gary Payton to Kobe and Shaq is also of course a surefire title right?...right?...am I right?


If Malone was healthy they very well could have won the finals.

[UnWantedTheory]

Dirk is obviously a better player. But just to put in, being a better player does not necessarily mean the team will be better for it. This is a "what if" debate of little consequence, simply because it could go either way. Who fucking cares as well? Except some fucking homers coming out of the wood work with a decent chance at winning a debate based off an idiotic idea.

[Nathan Explosion]

So swapping Manu out for Dirk would have been a surefire 5+ rings now eh?
So a lot of you guys here have an "A" in classic crystall ball theory and its consequences.

Adding Karl Malone and Gary Payton to Kobe and Shaq is also of course a surefire title right?...right?...am I right?

As a fiercely loyal Spurs fan (they are my favorite team in all of sports after all), I have to point out that this argument is full of fail. The problem with this argument, besides the obvious that Payton and Malone were past their primes is that fact that they had nothing to do with the Lakers failing to win the title.

The Lakers lost because of Shaq and Kobe's inability to coexist any longer (check the stats- Kobe 22 ppg 31% shooting, Shaq 26 ppg 63% shooting), not with any chemistry problems caused by Payton and Malone.

Dirk and Duncan both have personalities that lend themselves to working with each other.

What Manu fans are failing to understand is that you can be a loyal sports fan without losing objectivity. I'm a Spurs fan. But anyone but a BLIND homer can see that Dirk is a better player than Gino in this argument. Dirk provides matchup nightmares, which in turn help Duncan exploit any matchup he has, and vice versa. There is no common sense argument to state that the two couldn't excel togethter. NOT ONE. PERIOD.

Ask any GM in the league who'd they choose and the consensus would be Dirk. If Pop and RC could make the trade they would. Only blind homers fail to see that.

Admitting that Dirk would make the Spurs more successful than Gino doesn't make you love Gino any less. It just means you can see the forest for the trees.

[MB20]

lol at the results of the poll so far

Manu 49.18 %
Dirk 50.82 %


:lmao:rollin

[benefactor]

As a fiercely loyal Spurs fan (they are my favorite team in all of sports after all), I have to point out that this argument is full of fail. The problem with this argument, besides the obvious that Payton and Malone were past their primes is that fact that they had nothing to do with the Lakers failing to win the title.

The Lakers lost because of Shaq and Kobe's inability to coexist any longer (check the stats- Kobe 22 ppg 31% shooting, Shaq 26 ppg 63% shooting), not with any chemistry problems caused by Payton and Malone.

Dirk and Duncan both have personalities that lend themselves to working with each other.

What Manu fans are failing to understand is that you can be a loyal sports fan without losing objectivity. I'm a Spurs fan. But anyone but a BLIND homer can see that Dirk is a better player than Gino in this argument. Dirk provides matchup nightmares, which in turn help Duncan exploit any matchup he has, and vice versa. There is no common sense argument to state that the two couldn't excel togethter. NOT ONE. PERIOD.

Ask any GM in the league who'd they choose and the consensus would be Dirk. If Pop and RC could make the trade they would. Only blind homers fail to see that.

Admitting that Dirk would make the Spurs more successful than Gino doesn't make you love Gino any less. It just means you can see the forest for the trees.
Once again...logic wins in straight sets.

[LionZion]

As a fiercely loyal Spurs fan (they are my favorite team in all of sports after all), I have to point out that this argument is full of fail. The problem with this argument, besides the obvious that Payton and Malone were past their primes is that fact that they had nothing to do with the Lakers failing to win the title. [\quote]


Thank you for the bold part. For all the ppl here who are bashing homers and stressing "logic", the above part is the about the only logic. There is no way anyone can know for sure. We got only conjectures from ppl, seen from their perspectives.

Manu hasn't been cast as leader of a NBA team and told to perform and be their savior. We don't know if he could have(all my statements are qualified as regarding a prime Manu or Dirk). Make no mistake, Manu has learned to play the secondary role and only step up when needed.

[quote]Admitting that Dirk would make the Spurs more successful than Gino doesn't make you love Gino any less. It just means you can see the forest for the trees.

Again, for the "logic" folks, I just can't admit the above. I have no idea how much of a great player Dirk would be playing second banana to Duncan. I guess we all agree, on Timmy's team, Dirk will officially be second banana. So can he be as successful as Manu and provide the team anything that the team needs, clutch baskets, assists, steals, fouls(lets include the bad as well), energy, and just basically "championship moment" plays with the same or better efficiency as Manu? If you answer of course, I will have to refer you back to my sarcastic comment about Malone-Payton etc.

The Spurs might have won more with a few things going differently. I think, even without a crystall ball degree, the same sentence will apply if it was Dirk on the team. We could have always won more if coupla things had gone differently. Who might have been better for Spurs? WHo the hell knows!

Manu is awesome, Dirk is great. Thats me, a Spurs "blinded" stumbling homer who is not even argentinean.

[DPG21920]

That makes no sense ^^^^^


This is called making an informed/educated decision or guess. Is it an exact science? No. But by your logic, no one can argue anything unless it has happened already or else they have a "crystal ball degree"?

That is the point of this forum to a certain degree. To discuss theory and probabilities. To make an argument that "no one knows the future, so there can be no conclusion" is a silly thing to do and defeats the purpose.

Why discuss this up coming season at all or say that Richard Jefferson was a good move for the Spurs if it is all just guessing into the future anyways?

[Muser]

[quote=Nathan Explosion;3626720]As a fiercely loyal Spurs fan (they are my favorite team in all of sports after all), I have to point out that this argument is full of fail. The problem with this argument, besides the obvious that Payton and Malone were past their primes is that fact that they had nothing to do with the Lakers failing to win the title. [\quote]


Thank you for the bold part. For all the ppl here who are bashing homers and stressing "logic", the above part is the about the only logic. There is no way anyone can know for sure. We got only conjectures from ppl, seen from their perspectives.

Manu hasn't been cast as leader of a NBA team and told to perform and be their savior. We don't know if he could have(all my statements are qualified as regarding a prime Manu or Dirk). Make no mistake, Manu has learned to play the secondary role and only step up when needed.



Again, for the "logic" folks, I just can't admit the above. I have no idea how much of a great player Dirk would be playing second banana to Duncan. I guess we all agree, on Timmy's team, Dirk will officially be second banana. So can he be as successful as Manu and provide the team anything that the team needs, clutch baskets, assists, steals, fouls(lets include the bad as well), energy, and just basically "championship moment" plays with the same or better efficiency as Manu? If you answer of course, I will have to refer you back to my sarcastic comment about Malone-Payton etc.

The Spurs might have won more with a few things going differently. I think, even without a crystall ball degree, the same sentence will apply if it was Dirk on the team. We could have always won more if coupla things had gone differently. Who might have been better for Spurs? WHo the hell knows!

Manu is awesome, Dirk is great. Thats me, a Spurs "blinded" stumbling homer who is not even argentinean.

If Kobe can play second banana to a prime Shaq, then Dirk can play second banana to Duncan quite easily.

[DAF86]

That makes no sense ^^^^^


This is called making an informed/educated decision or guess. Is it an exact science? No. But by your logic, no one can argue anything unless it has happened already or else they have a "crystal ball degree"?

That is the point of this forum to a certain degree. To discuss theory and probabilities. To make an argument that "no one knows the future, so there can be no conclusion" is a silly thing to do and defeats the purpose.

Why discuss this up coming season at all or say that Richard Jefferson was a good move for the Spurs if it is all just guessing into the future anyways?

Really people you can't do much better than 3 championships in 6 years. You know how difficult it is to win a championship? you need everysingle thing to go your way, one thing that doesn't go your way and that's it you go home.

[LionZion]

That makes no sense ^^^^^


This is called making an informed/educated decision or guess.

If you have data on how a prime Manu plays as a team leader on a decent team, or how good a prime Dirk is as second banana on a playoff contender, please do tell. For the rest, its pure conjecture. We can make informed decisions, when there is information. Otherwise, its called a leap of faith. Which is what our up coming season is btw.

[sonic21]

Holy shit Manu has 89 votes, damn I wish this was public.

he would have less than 89 votes if it was public

[ambchang]

So, in an extreme case, it is reasonable to say that putting in Dwayne Wade instead of Brent Barry could not have improved the Spurs, because it's pure conjecture?

[LionZion]

So, in an extreme case, it is reasonable to say that putting in Dwayne Wade instead of Brent Barry could not have improved the Spurs, because it's pure conjecture?

Lol, what is your point? Like you said its an extreme case with more obvious possible results. So Manu vs Dirk is an obvious result?

[DAF86]

Holy shit Manu has 89 votes, damn I wish this was public.


he would have less than 89 votes if it was public

Many of the Dirk's votes are Bump's trolls.

[DAF86]

So, in an extreme case, it is reasonable to say that putting in Dwayne Wade instead of Brent Barry could not have improved the Spurs, because it's pure conjecture?

Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Are you really a Spurs fan?

[Findog]

Really people you can't do much better than 3 championships in 6 years. You know how difficult it is to win a championship? you need everysingle thing to go your way, one thing that doesn't go your way and that's it you go home.

You put Dirk on the Spurs in that time frame and one of their biggest obstacles to winning a title (Dallas Mavericks) is removed.

[DAF86]

You put Dirk on the Spurs in that time frame and one of their biggest obstacles to winning a title (Dallas Mavericks) is removed.

But the Spurs may have not beaten their main obstacule (Lakers) in 2003, the year that started all. Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now. And without that first win over the Lakers you never know what may have happened (like pretty much everything that was exposed in this thread, you can't know 'cause is all expeculation)

[ambchang]

Lol, what is your point? Like you said its an extreme case with more obvious possible results. So Manu vs Dirk is an obvious result?

But my point is consistent with your "conjecture" argument. What is the difference in this case? Why is the result deemed obvious? Because you said so? Why is not Manu vs. Dirk allowed to be obvious? Who makes that call? You do? If so, why?

All I know is, Dwayne Wade never played on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, but Barry did. Barry won 2 championships playing for the Spurs, Wade won 0 championships playing for the Spurs. The extension is exactly the same as what you have stated in the Dirk vs. Manu argument.

[ambchang]

Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Are you really a Spurs fan?

Thanks for the revelation. I would never have discovered that Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Oh wait, I did, I stated the "extreme case", which was to illustrate that educated guesses could be made under certain circumstances.

What does this have to do with me really being a Spurs fan? You mean that I should be against any moves that could possibly improve the Spurs, and just going with what had happen is the model of being a Spurs fan? Are you saying that being a Spurs fan means that the I should never argue a player on another team is better than those on the Spurs?

[LionZion]

But my point is consistent with your "conjecture" argument. What is the difference in this case? Why is the result deemed obvious? Because you said so? Why is not Manu vs. Dirk allowed to be obvious? Who makes that call? You do? If so, why?

All I know is, Dwayne Wade never played on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, but Barry did. Barry won 2 championships playing for the Spurs, Wade won 0 championships playing for the Spurs. The extension is exactly the same as what you have stated in the Dirk vs. Manu argument.

You qualified the comparison yourself as "extreme". So I would say, because you said so. And really, you want me to tell you why Wade vs Barry is not the same as Manu vs Dirk?

[ambchang]

But the Spurs may have not beaten their main obstacule (Lakers) in 2003, the year that started all. Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now. And without that first win over the Lakers you never know what may have happened (like pretty much everything that was exposed in this thread, you can't know 'cause is all expeculation)

Manu was a rookie averaging around 10ppg in the playoffs, Nowitzki was a 5-year veteran avearging 25 ppg in the regular season and 23 ppg in the playoffs. Sure Manu supplied a lot of the fire, passion and various intangibles in 03, but it would be pretty safe to say that the Spurs would have won in 03 with Dirk instead of Manu.

[DAF86]

Thanks for the revelation. I would never have discovered that Nowitzki isn't Wade and Ginobili isn't Barry. Oh wait, I did, I stated the "extreme case", which was to illustrate that educated guesses could be made under certain circumstances.

What does this have to do with me really being a Spurs fan? You mean that I should be against any moves that could possibly improve the Spurs, and just going with what had happen is the model of being a Spurs fan? Are you saying that being a Spurs fan means that the I should never argue a player on another team is better than those on the Spurs?

You can definitely say that a Dirk/Manu at their primes swap would benefit the Spurs. I said what I said because of the Wade/Barry thing but I guess I read that wrong.

[DPG21920]

But my point is consistent with your "conjecture" argument. What is the difference in this case? Why is the result deemed obvious? Because you said so? Why is not Manu vs. Dirk allowed to be obvious? Who makes that call? You do? If so, why?

All I know is, Dwayne Wade never played on the Spurs with Tim Duncan, but Barry did. Barry won 2 championships playing for the Spurs, Wade won 0 championships playing for the Spurs. The extension is exactly the same as what you have stated in the Dirk vs. Manu argument.

He/She does not get it at all.

[ambchang]

You qualified the comparison yourself as "extreme". So I would say, because you said so. And really, you want me to tell you why Wade vs Barry is not the same as Manu vs Dirk?

But the logic is the same. Why would conjecture not apply in this situation?

[La Peace]

I'd take Dirk

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Dirk.

[leo_d]

Manu is a winner.

He even wins against comon sense in this poll.
Manu 50,2
Dirk 49,7

[benefactor]

If you have data on how a prime Manu plays as a team leader on a decent team, or how good a prime Dirk is as second banana on a playoff contender, please do tell. For the rest, its pure conjecture. We can make informed decisions, when there is information. Otherwise, its called a leap of faith. Which is what our up coming season is btw.
This entire thread is based on unknowns...but isn't most player evaluation? When a FO is looking to trade for a player they are thinking about that players game and how it will impact their roster. They have no idea if it will work or not, but they take the information available to them and make an educated guess. That is what this thread is about...and why and arguments like "we don't know what Dirk would be as a second banana" and "we don't know what prime Manu would be as a team leader" are pointless.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now.


Wtf, Manu's series high was 17 points......maybe he was good, but it wasn't some spectacular performance or anything.

[ohmwrecker]

This entire thread is based on unknowns...but isn't most player evaluation? When a FO is looking to trade for a player they are thinking about that players game and how it will impact their roster. They have no idea if it will work or not, but they take the information available to them and make an educated guess. That is what this thread is about...and why and arguments like "we don't know what Dirk would be as a second banana" and "we don't know what prime Manu would be as a team leader" are pointless.

Pointless? Well, shit. Everyone agrees that Nowitzki is the better player. Maybe that should have been the original question. Isn't this whole discussion kind of pointless?

[benefactor]

Pointless? Well, shit. Everyone agrees that Nowitzki is the better player. Maybe that should have been the original question. Isn't this whole discussion kind of pointless?
The discussion was started to get Spur fan to think with his mind and not his heart. Unfortunately this failed horribly.

[ohmwrecker]

The discussion was started to get Spur fan to think with his mind and not his heart. Unfortunately this failed horribly.


It's a debate you goofy bastard. That's what you do. You pick a side and you argue that point. You don't even have to believe it to debate it. Mind and heart are equally useful tools in a debate. Insulting the intelligence of your opponents is amateur and juvenile.

It's like you threw a party and then proceeded to act like an asshole when the guests arrived. You pissed in the punchbowl, dude.

[benefactor]

It's a debate you goofy bastard. That's what you do. You pick a side and you argue that point. You don't even have to believe it to debate it. Mind and heart are equally useful tools in a debate. Insulting the intelligence of your opponents is amateur and juvenile.

It's like you threw a party and then proceeded to act like an asshole when the guests arrived. You pissed in the punchbowl, dude.
Dirk is better. This isn't really debatable.

[ohmwrecker]

Dirk is better. This isn't really debatable.

We finally agree!

[DAF86]

Wtf, Manu's series high was 17 points......maybe he was good, but it wasn't some spectacular performance or anything.

Manu's points never make justice to the player he is or the imprint he leaves on a game.

[benefactor]

We finally agree!
:tu

It's been fun though, hasn't it?

[ElNono]

The discussion was started to get Spur fan to think with his mind and not his heart. Unfortunately this failed horribly.

:wakeup

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:tu

It's been fun though, hasn't it?

:lol

[benefactor]

:wakeup
Here's lookin' at you, kid.

[diego]

His team just made the 2nd round. It's no longer a crappy team. It's safe to say that if Manu was on that team instead of JJ it wouldn't have made the 2nd round.

the 2nd round in the east, against a philly team whose best player was out injured and was led by Igoudala and Andre Miller. Joe posted 17.1 ppg 4.4 reb, 3.1 ast, and 1 spg on .415 and .435 from 3... and ended his playoffs with 16.4 ppg / 4.5 rpg / 3.5 ast, 1.3 stl and .417 / .343

fact- Josh Smith led the hawks in scoring and mike bibby led them in assists. the only notable category joe led them in was minutes played, by less than 2 minutes over smith.

this hawks team also has solid role players most spurs fans would trade straight up for the ones we had in 07/08, the last season manu played meaningful minutes- wouldn't you take horford over bonner? pachulia over oberto? williams over finley? murray over udoka?

all this said, the hawks finished 08/09 47-35, philly 41-41. when was the last time the spurs played a 41 win team in the playoffs? even as the first seed? would you bet on the hawks making it past the 2nd round in the next 5 years? how about just getting past the 1st in the next 5 years? that would be a stupid bet because the only way they could make it is if they get favorable matchups, or another "franchise player"

joe johnson has been to one all star game, as a reserve, same as manu. unlike manu, no all-nba teams.

as far as I know, no MVP press like manu got in the 07/08 season. JJ led his team in scoring? so did Manu in 07/08. are you telling me teams were game planning on the spurs' 2nd and 3rd scorers and that the plan was to "let manu get his"? what are the chances teams did the same with JJ, gameplanning for smith instead? I dont know, but that sounds like a stupid argument. and anyone who has watched the spurs from 05-08 knows manu is the spurs closer. its not like he is a third option that doesnt get the ball when it matters (in fact, most clutch stats had him scoring in the kobe/lebron/dirk tier in the last 5 minutes of a game). and its probably a safe bet that the spurs pace was much lower than the hawks, probably in any season from 2000 onward.

really, the biggest thing JJ has on manu is minutes played and durability. and while that is certainly valuable for a franchise player, I'm not seeing anything that makes it so safe to assume manu would be unable to lead a team with smith, bibby, pachulia horford and williams over a sixers team with iguodala, miller, young and dalembert.

oh, and since we all love stats and the playoffs is what matters:
JJ career playoff stats:
37.1 mpg / .423 FG / .417 3FG / 15.8 ppg / 4.3 reb / 3.2 ast / .9 spg
manu career playoff stats:
30.8 mpg / .443 FG / .380 3FG / 16.0 ppg / 4.8 reb / 3.5 ast / 1.4 spg

manu does everything better except for shooting 3s in 6 minutes less.
and manu's best numbers (04-05, 05-06, 07-08) were the seasons he played the most minutes (33.6, 32.8, 32.9, respectively, with 04-05 being the best)

anyways, I'm done wasting time talking about JJ, a guy only butt hurt suns fans will remember 10 years from now. manu on the other hand will be remembered by suns fans, pistons fans, sonics fans, cavs fans, laker fans, etc etc well beyond that.


*and I didnt even mention the fact that manu is the protagonist of one of the greatest basketball feats of all time, knocking out the dream team, twice, at home in Indy and again at the Athens Olympics.

so yes, in my humble opinion it is extremely stupid to suggest that joe johnson is in a separte tier from manu ginobili because he scored 25ppg with a good % on a crappy team. comparable? sure, you can argue, there are enough similarities and unknowns to make arguments. but the numbers show that, even if manu lost efficiency with a whopping 6 more minutes, his numbers would still be on track with JJ's if not better.

[benefactor]

It wasn't a complete loss though. DAF86 still managed to become the white girl in this hotel of a thread while Kobe Bryant posters checked in and out all night long.

[urunobili]

It wasn't a complete loss though. DAF86 still managed to become the white girl in this hotel of a thread while Kobe Bryant posters checked in and out all night long.

:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

the 2nd round in the east, against a philly team whose best player was out injured and was led by Igoudala and Andre Miller.


Brah I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year.

[Nathan Explosion]

But the Spurs may have not beaten their main obstacule (Lakers) in 2003, the year that started all. Manu was great on that series and Dirk wasn't the player he is now. And without that first win over the Lakers you never know what may have happened (like pretty much everything that was exposed in this thread, you can't know 'cause is all expeculation)

Not a chance. The Spurs won against the Lakers in 2003 because Duncan owned all that year. He was, HANDS DOWN, the best player in the game and proved it again and again that playoffs, culminating in a near quadruple-double in the clinching game of the Finals.

[Nathan Explosion]

Brah I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year.

That would be because they didn't play. The Sixers played the Magic. But you already knew that, didn't you.

I think the other poster meant the year before.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think the other poster meant the year before.


Really brah, I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers a year ago either :lol

[Nathan Explosion]

Really brah, I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers a year ago either :lol

I went back to 2007 and they still didn't meet. I never realized that. I wonder what he was talking about then?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I wonder what he was talking about then?


Fuck if I know.

[Nathan Explosion]

Fuck if I know.

I guess it was a good thing I never bothered to read the entire post past the first 2 sentences then.

[redzero]

Is this a serious question? Dirk > Manu by faaaaaaar.

[Blackjack]

Dirk is better. This isn't really debatable.

Well, it only took 27 pages to find out this thread was nothing more than a sharp stick to Spurs fans.:lol

[benefactor]

Well, it only took 27 pages to find out this thread was nothing more than a sharp stick to Spurs fans.:lol
Yeah...it was a bit a of a bait thread. I commend you for being one of the few to make some good arguments for Manu though. At least you weren't saying things like "Well, Manu has been successful with Duncan and we don't know what Dirk would be because they never played together."

[diego]

Brah I didn't know the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year.

eh, too much weed to remember the irrelevant PO teams out east. point still stands, I barely talked about the sixers. the heat amazingly enough won 2 more games than the sixers despite having an incredibly inexperienced team, starters, reserves, even the coach.

so i guess in your retarded logic johnson > wade as a franchise player, because wade has injury problems and hasnt made it past the 1st round in years, right? mr reliable ftw!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

eh, too much weed to remember the irrelevant PO teams out east.


Is this code for you didn't know what you were talking about?

[easy7]

So we all agree that Dirk is a second banana to Duncan. Even if they both play on different teams. :toast

[Sportstudi]

As a fiercely loyal Spurs fan (they are my favorite team in all of sports after all), I have to point out that this argument is full of fail. The problem with this argument, besides the obvious that Payton and Malone were past their primes is that fact that they had nothing to do with the Lakers failing to win the title.

The Lakers lost because of Shaq and Kobe's inability to coexist any longer (check the stats- Kobe 22 ppg 31% shooting, Shaq 26 ppg 63% shooting), not with any chemistry problems caused by Payton and Malone.

Dirk and Duncan both have personalities that lend themselves to working with each other.

What Manu fans are failing to understand is that you can be a loyal sports fan without losing objectivity. I'm a Spurs fan. But anyone but a BLIND homer can see that Dirk is a better player than Gino in this argument. Dirk provides matchup nightmares, which in turn help Duncan exploit any matchup he has, and vice versa. There is no common sense argument to state that the two couldn't excel togethter. NOT ONE. PERIOD.

Ask any GM in the league who'd they choose and the consensus would be Dirk. If Pop and RC could make the trade they would. Only blind homers fail to see that.

Admitting that Dirk would make the Spurs more successful than Gino doesn't make you love Gino any less. It just means you can see the forest for the trees.

This

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So we all agree that Dirk is a second banana to Duncan.


I don't think anyone is saying Dirk > Duncan.

[Blackjack]

Yeah...it was a bit a of a bait thread. I commend you for being one of the few to make some good arguments for Manu though. At least you weren't saying things like "Well, Manu has been successful with Duncan and we don't know what Dirk would be because they never played together."

This thread almost got the, "I have a belly button treatment" but I realized this was more about calling out homers, than actual second banana arguments.

Like i said before, There's a legit reason for the salary discrepancy. If you're building a team and are in need of a franchise/numero uno player, there's no argument.

But, if you're making a hypothetical argument of having a prime, healthy player that compliments Tim's game and position, there's an argument to be made.

There'd be no argument whatsoever if Dirk were a backcourt player, though.

The argument that two number 1's can't defer to each other holds zero weight if their skills and position are in compliment. (i.e. Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe or even Jordan/Pippen-- Pippen did almost take the Bulls to the finals.)

[benefactor]

*clears throat*

[benefactor]

Poll was tied at 98 when I bumped the thread.

lol random homer voting for Manu

[Muser]

lol anyone who has ever thought Manu > Dirk

[Muser]

You know my opinion, besides I think Manu compliments Tim's game a lot more.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao yeah because the biggest miss match in the NBA wouldn't compliment Duncan. Dirk + Duncan would rival Kobe/Shaq in elite inside/outside game.

[benefactor]

Just read through this thread again. Lot's of gold. Findog dropped major loads on this thread tbh.

[Spurs7794]

Manu would be the better second banana.......but thats because Dirk would be by far the better first banana.


I remember reading this thread and just shaking my head at the homers.

[Muser]

I love the ultimate gnsf quote "Manu has the intensity and fire that makes him better"...:lmao

[Horse]

The thing that make Manu the better is pick is intangibles. When he's at his best he's getting, a key rebound, making a big steal or hitting a clutch shot. Dirk hits shots and he's unguardable but a one-way player and that's it.

[Horse]

You guys should work for the media, how quick we forget. My god do you remember Manu in 05? And it's not like dirk has'nt had great teamates and he's not been able to get it done. No one is saying Manu is better now but overall how is he not the more complete player and compliment to Duncan?

[Nick Manning]

The thing that make Manu the better is pick is intangibles. When he's at his best he's getting, a key rebound, making a big steal or hitting a clutch shot. Dirk hits shots and he's unguardable but a one-way player and that's it.

You are the dumbest human being I have ever come across.

[41times]

I agree, Duncan would make a nice comliment to Dirk.

[oski1000]

I can´t remembered how many rings won Dirk.

[Venti Quattro]

I can´t remembered how many rings won Dirk.

English please :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Venti Quattro]

Second banana to Duncan... easy question tbh it's Manu.

[AnthonyM]

I voted for Manu just to keep the ridiculousness of this thread going.

:rollin

[cantthinkofanything]

I voted for Manu so I would be eligible for the drawing.

[Muser]

You guys should work for the media, how quick we forget. My god do you remember Manu in 05? And it's not like dirk has'nt had great teamates and he's not been able to get it done. No one is saying Manu is better now but overall how is he not the more complete player and compliment to Duncan?

Because Dirk is better. Dirk + Duncan from 2003 win nearly every title since.

[eric365]

According to some spurstalk members :
- Manu = Dirk
- Splitter = Griffin for ROY chances (poll before the season started)
- Duncan is still an all star caliber player (a lot of people thought he deserved it when he got it this year)
- Parker should have been an all star this year

Don't understand how they got eliminated in the first round

[AnthonyM]

You guys should work for the media, how quick we forget. My god do you remember Manu in 05? And it's not like dirk has'nt had great teamates and he's not been able to get it done. No one is saying Manu is better now but overall how is he not the more complete player and compliment to Duncan?

I don't get how people still think like this when we're badly aching for another 7-footer.

Splitter isn't 1/4th of the player Dirk is and people are calling for Pop's head because he doesn't play Splitter, and yet some of these same people wouldn't take Dirk over Manu...

Not to mention that the best frontcourt lineups in the game for the last three years have been Bynum/Gasol/Odom and Garnett/Perkins...how people don't see that a prime Dirk/Duncan lineup would shit all over both of those lineups is ridiculous.

And because we're dreaming here, if we had gotten Dirk, either drafted or traded before the the '03 year, Pop would have had a chance to instill defense in him earlier...it's not Dirk's fault Don Nelson got his hands on him early...so those that think Dirk is a sieve on defense, which he's not, to think he couldn't play defense on a team coached by Pop is ridiculous. Especially considering that Dirk's always been a team player.

[Horse]

I don't get how people still think like this when we're badly aching for another 7-footer.

Splitter isn't 1/4th of the player Dirk is and people are calling for Pop's head because he doesn't play Splitter, and yet some of these same people wouldn't take Dirk over Manu...

Not to mention that the best frontcourt lineups in the game for the last three years have been Bynum/Gasol/Odom and Garnett/Perkins...how people don't see that a prime Dirk/Duncan lineup would shit all over both of those lineups is ridiculous.

And because we're dreaming here, if we had gotten Dirk, either drafted or traded before the the '03 year, Pop would have had a chance to instill defense in him earlier...it's not Dirk's fault Don Nelson got his hands on him early...so those that think Dirk is a sieve on defense, which he's not, to think he couldn't play defense on a team coached by Pop is ridiculous. Especially considering that Dirk's always been a team player.
I just think you forget how good Manu was in his prime and healthy. And I think Manu fit more of a need Duncan already did some of the things dirk does. And as far as making big plays no one has come up more than Manu in big moments.

[DMC]

It would have to be Dirk. Manu was never, in his wildest dreams, as dominant as Dirk. He's great, no doubt, but Dirk and a prime Timmy would be a 6 or 7 ringer.

[Horse]

You are the dumbest human being I have ever come across.
Did you even read when I wrote, or just call me dumb you fucking douchebag. Are you gonna tell me Manu has not made more clutch plays then dirk? I'm not saying for one minute dirk is not great or he would'nt have been great with Duncan I'm just saying I think Manu fits better with Timmy. So go suck your moms dick!

[DMC]

English please :lmao :lmao :lmao
tsk tsk...

You know what he was asking. There's no need to make fun of someone's 2nd or 3rd language. You try to speak his. A lot of the Spurs are not even from the US (the best ones actually).

Dirk has not won a ring. Neither has Lebron. Would anyone here take Manu over Lebron?

[DAF86]

*clears throat*

Great timing.

This isn't a who is better thread. This is a "who do you think would pair with Duncan better" thread so it leaves a lot of room to arguments. Also during that time neither Manu nor Dirk were playing at the level they're playing right now. Now that Manu is out of his prime is easy to forget how good he was during it, he would post 20+ pts in less than 15 shots pretty regularly and dominate a game just as much as any other player in the league. And Dirk although still a superstar (and yes, a better player than Manu) wasn't playinjg at the level he is playing right now where it seems like he can't miss, there's a reason he is a 47% shooter lifetime (45% in the playoffs).

So trying to make it seem like it was ridiculous during that time to argue that Manu could have been a better sidekick for Duncan than Dirk is not only unfair but an uneducated behaviour (not to mention a disrespect to a Spurs legend). Prime Manu vs what most people thought it was prime Dirk as a Duncan sidekick is definitely debatable.

[Behrooz24]

:pop:More Bonner

[temujin]

In life, there are winners and losers, just like in basketball.
Some of the losers put up big numbers.
They are still losers.

Manu is a winner, at all levels.
Nowitski -so far- a loser, at all levels.

How refreshing it is to see a 50-50 result on this one.

Life would be alot tougher if most would be winners.


PS I would obviously pick a 37years old Robert Horry over Novitski.

[Muser]

In life, there are winners and losers, just like in basketball.
Some of the losers put up big numbers.
They are still losers.

Manu is a winner, at all levels.
Nowitski -so far- a loser, at all levels.

How refreshing it is to see a 50-50 result on this one.

Life would be alot tougher if most would be winners.


PS I would obviously pick a 37years old Robert Horry over Novitski.

So you think Prime Manu is a better basketball player than prime Karl Malone?

[Spurs7794]

Is it me, or does anyone else feel the same way when they see someone bring up the IDIOTIC rings argument? I always feel like that argument is being made by some insecure fan who can't figure out a logical way of arguing for their choice of player over another player and cops out and goes with the rings argument. That argument works when we talk about the best players on a team (aka Duncan > Dirk) but not when arguing Manu versus Dirk.
Manu is a star and makes winning plays....but he would never have been in a position to make those winning plays in the finals if he didn't have Tim Duncan on his team.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

The thing that make Manu the better is pick is intangibles. When he's at his best he's getting, a key rebound, making a big steal or hitting a clutch shot. Dirk hits shots and he's unguardable but a one-way player and that's it.

I agree. Dirk is only invincible on offense. That's it. Manu can get a rebound or steal when he's playing at his best, and that's what counts :tu.

[cd98]

I agree, Duncan would make a nice comliment to Dirk.

If Dirk ever wants to know what its like to win a title, I'm sure Granpa Timmy would sit him and tell him.

[elbamba]

Dirk always seemed to be injured in his prime come playoff time. Manu has been injured the last four years come playoff time. With Manu being a star player on the team, SA wins two titles. I'll go with what I know. . .Manu.

[Spurs7794]

Dirk always seemed to be injured in his prime come playoff time. Manu has been injured the last four years come playoff time. With Manu being a star player on the team, SA wins two titles. I'll go with what I know. . .Manu.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA. Make Manu THE star player on a team (without Duncan) and lets see him get those two titles. Dirk was injured in all of one year of the playoffs (2003) and it was a freak injury where Manu fell into his knee.

[elbamba]

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA. Make Manu THE star player on a team (without Duncan) and lets see him get those two titles. Dirk was injured in all of one year of the playoffs (2003) and it was a freak injury where Manu fell into his knee.

Read my post carefully if you can. I said that Manu was a star player on the team, I did not say that he was the only star player on the team. This thread is about pairing a second star next to Duncan.

[rmt]

This can't be a serious question. Dirk can carry a team - Manu can't. With Dirk's shooting, he'll also age very well.

[temujin]

So you think Prime Manu is a better basketball player than prime Karl Malone?

Seeing prime Manu -pre-Spurs days actually- is what got me back to professional basketball.

He did things I had simply never seen on a basketball court.

Novitski is a shooter, a big shooter, a very good player.
But he is just another very good player.

Not an innovator.
He invented nothing ona basketball court.

Players like Manu are born once in ... I don't know, I have never seen one like that.

[temujin]

This can't be a serious question. Dirk can carry a team - Manu can't. With Dirk's shooting, he'll also age very well.

Argentina-04 says hi.
USA 02, 04, including Larry Brown, Gregg Popovich Tim Duncan, also says hello.

[temujin]

"It's not so much how much he (Manu) scores, it's WHEN,
it's exactly when you want them NOT to score, he does it. It's WHEN it hurt more.
Or it's steal, a tip, a charge, a pass, something."

End of citation, professional coach, beaten by Emanuel Ginobili.

[rmt]

:pop:More Bonner

With Dirk, Pop has his stretch big and Bonner never wears a Spurs uniform - addition by subtraction.


Argentina-04 says hi.
USA 02, 04, including Larry Brown, Gregg Popovich Tim Duncan, also says hello.

It's ridiculous to think that Manu could carry a team through the regular seasons/playoffs year after year the way Dirk has. There's a reason why he's been so efficient and such a game changer - Pop has limited his minutes. If he had to play the heavy minutes of a franchise player, he wouldn't be efficient and he would have burnt out long ago the way he plays.

[ElNono]

Dirk would make a great Robin, much like Gasol or Lebron...

[Spurs7794]

Seeing prime Manu -pre-Spurs days actually- is what got me back to professional basketball.

He did things I had simply never seen on a basketball court.

Novitski is a shooter, a big shooter, a very good player.
But he is just another very good player.

Not an innovator.
He invented nothing ona basketball court.

Players like Manu are born once in ... I don't know, I have never seen one like that.


Just cuz Manu is an innovator doesn't make him a better second banana than Dirk. I could probably perfect some random bullshit backwards flip shot by playing Horse and be an innovator...I'm better than that jumpshooting Nowitski.

[rmt]

"It's not so much how much he (Manu) scores, it's WHEN,
it's exactly when you want them NOT to score, he does it. It's WHEN it hurt more.
Or it's steal, a tip, a charge, a pass, something."

End of citation, professional coach, beaten by Emanuel Ginobili.

Manu is no doubt about it - a game changer but Dirk is a franchise player with career regular season avg of 23/8.4/2.7 and career playoffs avg of 25.8/10.6/2.6 which outweighs that.

[TMTTRIO]

No question Dirk's a superstar in this league and is the franchise player of his team. Manu's been nothing more than a good role player and 6MOY. Manu's plays like a star every now and then but is way too inconsistant to even be up there.

[temujin]

Just cuz Manu is an innovator doesn't make him a better second banana than Dirk. I could probably perfect some random bullshit backwards flip shot by playing Horse and be an innovator...I'm better than that jumpshooting Nowitski.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[temujin]

Manu is no doubt about it - a game changer but Dirk is a franchise player with career regular season avg of 23/8.4/2.7 and career playoffs avg of 25.8/10.6/2.6 which outweighs that.

Career winning something, just any type of tournament: 0%.

Enough said.

I take a 37 years old Horry over Novitski in his prime.
Horry won a championship with a hipcheck.

[Axe Murderer]

oh boy!

I bet this thread is a fun read

[windboy226]

Career winning something, just any type of tournament: 0%.

Enough said.

I take a 37 years old Horry over Novitski in his prime.
Horry won a championship with a hipcheck.

This might be the single dumbest thing I've ever seen on the forum.

I guess I can see how there's some type of argument with Manu but Horry? Really!?!? And a washed up Horry over a prime Nowitzki?

That's kinda like saying I'd rather have a broken down Nick Van Exel over prime Tim Duncan.

[8FOR!3]

Very tough question. Game on the line give me Ginobili, I'll take his intangibles over anybody. And while Dirk hasn't won the championships and might not leave with the same legacy on paper, he's still a special player. And I want to lean towards Dirk, but I can't think of a reason to say he's better than Manu Ginobili, so I'm just not going to give a direct answer. Good question though, two greats.

[badfish22]

spurfan can be some dumb motherfuckers

[elbamba]

spurfan can be some dumb motherfuckers

You have to read the op. The question is not who is better Manu or Dirk. The question is who would you take as a sidekick to Tim. If you already have Tim Duncan in his prime 2003-2007 Tim Duncan, who would you rather have Manu or Dirk?

If I had to pick one player to be my cornerstone and Tim was not an option I would take Dirk over Manu.

However, as a teammate, Tim and Manu have succesfully won three rings together. History shows that this is an effective team. I would stick with what I know, a Tim and Manu combo.

[roycrikside]

Manu, easily. The Spurs won with defense. Manu's easily one of the best two or three defenders at shooting guard, especially during his prime. Dirk is an awful defender. He's the guy who would be guarding Bowen or Oberto, people who don't get the ball.

Besides, Tony had a hard enough time getting the ball to just Timmy. No way he could get it to two big men. Playing with two big guys like that would reduce him to a catch and shoot guy and that's not his game.

[temujin]

This might be the single dumbest thing I've ever seen on the forum.

I guess I can see how there's some type of argument with Manu but Horry? Really!?!? And a washed up Horry over a prime Nowitzki?

That's kinda like saying I'd rather have a broken down Nick Van Exel over prime Tim Duncan.

You probably don't remember how Robert Horry destroyed MVP DRob' Spurs.

05 Finals G5 is enough to pick him over Novitski, anytime.

7 rings.

Novitski is a perfect first violin to put up numbers and eventually fail.
I thought the question was WHO next to Duncan.

[temujin]

Manu, easily. The Spurs won with defense. Manu's easily one of the best two or three defenders at shooting guard, especially during his prime. Dirk is an awful defender. He's the guy who would be guarding Bowen or Oberto, people who don't get the ball.

Besides, Tony had a hard enough time getting the ball to just Timmy. No way he could get it to two big men. Playing with two big guys like that would reduce him to a catch and shoot guy and that's not his game.

This.

[temujin]

I thought the question was who next to Duncan
NOT
who as a "franchise player" (whatever that means) for a franchise that makes money and wins nothing.

[Muser]

spurfan can be some dumb motherfuckers

It's so hard to believe someone would take Manu over Dirk..You put Dirk/Duncan together with Bowen/Parker/MLE SG the Spurs win a shit ton of rings.