The Second Banana: Dirk vs. Manu

[benefactor]

Alright...let's settle this. If you had to pick a PRIME version of either as a compliment to Tim Duncan which would you pick? I'd like to see some valid arguments too.

[DAF86]

You know my opinion, besides I think Manu compliments Tim's game a lot more.

[benefactor]

Here are my thoughts from another thread:



Both players are great and equally productive. Dirk gets the nod for two big reasons. First, he is completely unguardable. He is basically a seven foot tall SG/SF. If you put him on the Spurs beside Duncan in the early/mid-2000's you have a tandem that cannot be stopped. Name a team during that time that could have stopped them. They would have beaten the Pistons in '04, the Heat in '06 and the Celtics in '08. Put Manu on the Mavericks and Dirk on the Spurs in 2006 and we sweep them. There is a good chance that they could have taken a title away from the Lakers during their run too...but even if they don't that is six titles.

The second..and possibly biggest reason is their style of play. Dirk is a finesse big man and Manu is a balls to the wall SG. Manu puts his body on the line every night and because of that he is always at risk for injury. Dirk on the other hand, is completely opposite. His style of play is to avoid contact and use is high release to shoot over his opponent. The largest number of games that Dirk has missed in any one season since 99-00 is 6.

[DAF86]

Do you remember Manu at his prime? the guy would put 25 points per game taking just 9 shots attemps.

[benefactor]

You know my opinion, besides I think Manu compliments Tim's game a lot more.
Not really. Dirk is a shooting big who can hit just about anything outside the lane and on the block Duncan was devastating during his prime. It would be easier to neutralize Manu with a good perimeter defender. There isn't a front line player in the league that is capable of guarding Dirk.

[DAF86]

Not really. Dirk is a shooting big who can hit just about anything outside the lane and on the block Duncan was devastating during his prime. It would be easier to neutralize Manu with a good perimeter defender. There isn't a front line player in the league that is capable of guarding Dirk.

Dirk couldn't have played the pick and roll (one of the bread and butter of our offense) with Tim the way Manu and Tim do.

[portnoy1]

I like still Like Manu over Dirk. Duncan Can take 20-30 shots while Manu takes 2 and Manu could still have an impact on the game. Dirk seems to need touches to be effective. He can pass, shoot and rebound ( decently ). However Manu can pass, shoot and rebound + DEFEND which covers/doesnt cover alot of categories. He brings energy off the bench. If Dirk came off the bench he would have to be the offense. Dirk, with his offensive skills could avg. 20pts off the bench. However he really cant do much more off the bench to help the team in a short burst ( say 5-8 minutes, avg. 25 minutes a game ). Ginobili makes and immediate impact whether it be offensively or DEFENSIVELY. Manu over Dirk as a sidekick simply because of Defensive Reasons. If Dirk Played Solid D, I might ( MIGHT ) pick Dirk cause then you would have the twin tower effect on offense and DEFENSE.

[Findog]

Dirk is not a "second banana," anymore than Kobe was a second banana to Shaq.

[benefactor]

Forgot to make the poll public. Can someone do that for me? Thanks.

[Findog]

Dirk couldn't have played the pick and roll (one of the bread and butter of our offense) with Tim the way Manu and Tim do.

Homer take #1

[Findog]

I like still Like Manu over Dirk. Duncan Can take 20-30 shots while Manu takes 2 and Manu could still have an impact on the game. Dirk seems to need touches to be effective. He can pass, shoot and rebound ( decently ). However Manu can pass, shoot and rebound + DEFEND which covers/doesnt cover alot of categories. He brings energy off the bench. If Dirk came off the bench he would have to be the offense. Dirk, with his offensive skills could avg. 20pts off the bench. However he really cant do much more off the bench to help the team in a short burst ( say 5-8 minutes, avg. 25 minutes a game ). Ginobili makes and immediate impact whether it be offensively or DEFENSIVELY. Manu over Dirk as a sidekick simply because of Defensive Reasons. If Dirk Played Solid D, I might ( MIGHT ) pick Dirk cause then you would have the twin tower effect on offense and DEFENSE.

Homer take #2

[DAF86]

Dirk couldn't have played the pick and roll (one of the bread and butter of our offense) with Tim the way Manu and Tim do.

Besides who would be the ball handler in clutch situation without Manu?

[Findog]

Duncan in his prime is a 1. Manu in his prime is a 2. Dirk in his prime is a 1.5

Put Dirk in place of Manu in any situation and that team is better off.

[benefactor]

Dirk is not a "second banana," anymore than Kobe was a second banana to Shaq.
Sorry about that...guess I should have used the term "complimentary". :)

[Findog]

Sorry about that...guess I should have used the term "complimentary". :)

Well, it's not really much of a discussion then. Dirk is better than Manu. Whatever you "lose" at Tim and Manu's ability to work the p'n'r is more than offset by what Dirk brings to the table.

[portnoy1]

Duncan in his prime is a 1. Manu in his prime is a 2. Dirk in his prime is a 1.5

Put Dirk in place of Manu in any situation and that team is better off.
I like Dirk's game and him and Duncan would have been unstoppable for defenses. However Defense Wins championships. Dirk has gotten better defensively but his BETTER DEFENSE is still not gonna cut it for a team looking to win a ring.

[dbestpro]

Dirk is not a "second banana," anymore than Kobe was a second banana to Shaq.

So you're saying Dirk is a second banana.

[Findog]

I like Dirk's game and him and Duncan would have been unstoppable for defenses. However Defense Wins championships. Dirk has gotten better defensively but his BETTER DEFENSE is still not gonna cut it for a team looking to win a ring.

I fail to understand how the Spurs wouldn't have been better if they had managed to trade Manu straight up for Dirk in 2002.

[Findog]

So you're saying Dirk is a second banana.

I'm saying Dirk is a franchise player. The Lakers happened to have two from 1997-2004.

[portnoy1]

Was that an actual Offer? Dirk For Manu.

[ambchang]

When Manu was on, there was no stopping him, but you have to go with Dirk on this one. Could you imagine Dirk standing next to Duncan? Put in Tony Parker and two shooters on the perimeter, and no one can double Duncan. An 2002/03 Duncan with a 06/07 Dirk would be absolutely amazing, I am going into convulsions just thinking about it.

Dirk could launch his shots wide open every time, he could drive by his man on the perimeter and go high low with Duncan, he can set screens for the shooters.

And a single teamed prime Duncan? That is like 35 ppg every game, guaranteed. Let me put it this way, with Dirk instead of Many in 04 and 06, the Spurs would have won 5 in a row, no question.

[dirk4mvp]

How many times have the Spurs won a title as a direct result of Manu's "defense"?

[benefactor]

Meh...Manu is overrated defensively. He is a gambler and a good team defender but he is not a great individual defender. One could easily argue that Dirk's lack of defense has been the result of his environment. Dirk is a very intelligent player and I think he could be a pretty good team defender if he was put somewhere that it was stressed....kinda like I think Manu would probably be a turnstile on defense if he played for Golden State.

[DAF86]

And please! please people, don't underrate what IMO is Manu's biggest atribute: the ability to make teammates better. Mohamed and Oberto should give half of the salaries they earned in the Spurs to Manu.

[Leetonidas]

Honestly I would rather have Dirk because although Manu in his prime was a stud, Dirk is bigger, a better shooter, a better rebounder, and a better scorer. Dirk would thrive as the second option to Tim Duncan with Parker running the point. Our inside-outside game would be sick. Imagine not being able to double Duncan because Nowitzki will pretty much hit the open three if you give it to him, or he'll hit it in your face on a turnaround fade away.

I love Manu and he is my 2nd favorite Spurs player next to Tim but Dirk is an MVP.

[benefactor]

There is also that health thing......

[portnoy1]

And please! please people, don't underrate what IMO is Manu's biggest atribute: the ability to make teammates better. Mohamed and Oberto should give half of the salaries they earned in the Spurs to Manu.
AMEN, Oh and by the way Manu doesnt have MELTdowns.

[dirk4mvp]

Meh...Manu is overrated defensively. He is a gambler and a good team defender but he is not a great individual defender. One could easily argue that Dirk's lack of defense has been the result of his environment. Dirk is a very intelligent player and I think he could be a pretty good team defender if he was put somewhere that it was stressed....kinda like I think Manu would probably be a turnstile on defense if he played for Golden State.

Exactly. I don't know many people who consider Paul Pierce and Ray Allen top notch defenders.

[Findog]

And please! please people, don't underrate what IMO is Manu's biggest atribute: the ability to make teammates better. Mohamed and Oberto should give half of the salaries they earned in the Spurs to Manu.

You're right, Dirk doesn't have this ability to make his teammates better. He beat the Spurs all by himself three months ago and role players like Brandon Bass and JJ Barea didn't contribute at all...or look like All Stars because of the defensive attention paid to Dirk.

[Findog]

AMEN, Oh and by the way Manu doesnt have MELTdowns.

Are you seriously trying to argue Manu is better than Dirk?

[Leetonidas]

How many times have the Spurs won a title as a direct result of Manu's "defense"?

I seem to remember him making a key defensive play in Game 6 of the 2003 Finals as a rookie that started a huge run for the Spurs that won them the game after being down double digits...

[BadOdor]

You have to be pretty damn stupid to pick manu over dirk.

Dirk as number 1 = maybe no championship, but pretty damn close.

Manu as number 1 = hell, can he even carry the load the whole seaon without breaking down?

[DAF86]

There is also that health thing......

So you should take the "prime" word out of the original post. Besides Manu's had one season ending injury same as Dirk.

[Findog]

You have to be pretty damn stupid to pick manu over dirk.

Dirk as number 1 = maybe no championship, but pretty damn close.

Manu as number 1 = hell, can he even carry the load the whole seaon without breaking down?

A team with Dirk as its best player came as close to winning a title as Al Gore came to being President.

A team with Manu as its best player will struggle to make the playoffs.

[BadOdor]

I seem to remember him making a key defensive play in Game 6 of the 2003 Finals as a rookie that started a huge run for the Spurs that won them the game after being down double digits...

So the spurs directly won a title as a result of manu's "key defensive play" ?

Got it.

[portnoy1]

You're right, Dirk doesn't have this ability to make his teammates better. He beat the Spurs all by himself three months ago and role players like Brandon Bass and JJ Barea didn't contribute at all...or look like All Stars because of the defensive attention paid to Dirk.
Bass has Been known to give the Spurs Problems ( ala David West type Forwards ). We also had Matt Bonner Guarding the Basket, Therefore Barea and several little guys got layups all season long. What Did Barea do in the Mavs-Nuggets series?

[BadOdor]

A team with Dirk as its best player came as close to winning a title as Al Gore came to being President.

A team with Manu as its best player will struggle to make the playoffs.

I could see him making the playoffs, possibly even winning a series. But that's about it.

[portnoy1]

Are you seriously trying to argue Manu is better than Dirk?
For the spurs yes For another team Dirk is the man hands down.

[Findog]

Bass has Been known to give the Spurs Problems ( ala David West type Forwards ). We also had Matt Bonner Guarding the Basket, Therefore Barea and several little guys got layups. What Did Barea do in the Mavs-Nuggets series?

The Nuggets employed a very different strategy than San Antonio did. And FWIW, Dirk absolutely dominated in that series. It's just that Denver was much better than Dallas.

[dbestpro]

It's fun to watch people miss this question. The poll does not ask whether Dirk or Manu would be the better player. it asked who would be better along side Duncan. Dirk is a fine frontline player and would pile up the stats whether it was Dallas, Minnesota or the Clippers. It takes a unique person to play "second banana" for the good of the team. Dirk simply could not do it because he does very little else but score. The greatest frontline Spur player to take that backseat? DRob when Duncan arrived. He did it for the good of the team.

[Old School 44]

Talent wise, I think it's a wash. They both bring different things to the table.
I would choose Manu for the intangibles, the passion for the game, the leadership, the fire. In this regard, Manu>>>>Dirk.

[portnoy1]

The Nuggets employed a very different strategy than San Antonio did. And FWIW, Dirk absolutely dominated in that series. It's just that Denver was much better than Dallas.Just like Dallas was obviously better than Spurs.

[Findog]

For the spurs yes For another team Dirk is the man hands down.

Sorry...I'm pretty sure a frontline tandem of Dirk/Duncan and an average player at SG beats the hell out of Duncan/Fab and Manu at SG.

[Findog]

Talent wise, I think it's a wash. They both bring different things to the table.
I would choose Manu for the intangibles, the passion for the game, the leadership, the fire. In this regard, Manu>>>>Dirk.

Homer take #3

[Findog]

It's fun to watch people miss this question. The poll does not ask whether Dirk or Manu would be the better player.

And I'll reiterate: A frontline tandem of Duncan/Dirk and an average player at SG >>> Duncan/Fab and Manu at SG.

The question was understood perfectly.

[portnoy1]

It's fun to watch people miss this question. The poll does not ask whether Dirk or Manu would be the better player. it asked who would be better along side Duncan. Dirk is a fine frontline player and would pile up the stats whether it was Dallas, Minnesota or the Clippers. It takes a unique person to play "second banana" for the good of the team. Dirk simply could not do it because he does very little else but score. The greatest frontline Spur player to take that backseat? DRob when Duncan arrived. He did it for the good of the team.That was my point to begin with, IF Duncan is the Man, then can Dirk find something else to bring to the table. DROB took a new found priority in being a defensive stopper. Dirk Could never be that kind of defensive player. He would end up like Glen Rice or Glenn "Big dawd" Robinson.

[BadOdor]

I like how spur fans always love to bring "intangibles", without realizing that it's all a result of playing with duncan.

Switch dirk with manu from 2002/2003, and do the spurs have more or less titles?




If you answer less or equal, you need to gtfo.

[dbestpro]

Sorry...I'm pretty sure a frontline tandem of Dirk/Duncan and an average player at SG beats the hell out of Duncan/Fab and Manu at SG.

Strikeout take #1

[sonic21]

dirk was a decent defender when avery was his coach, so i don't think his D would be a problem with Pop

[Findog]

That was my point to begin with, IF Duncan is the Man, then can Dirk find something else to bring to the table.

:lmao

Yeah, Popovich wouldn't spooge his pants if Donnie were dumb enough to call him up and offer him Dirk/Quentin Ross for Manu/Bonner.

[Findog]

Strikeout take #1

You're an idiot.

[dbestpro]

And I'll reiterate: A frontline tandem of Duncan/Dirk and an average player at SG >>> Duncan/Fab and Manu at SG.

The question was understood perfectly.

Strikeout take #2

[dbestpro]

You're an idiot.

Strikeout take #3, damn you caught up with the homers.

[portnoy1]

In the series that the spurs lost in 06' Josh Howard was a matchup problem as was Devin Harris. In 09' JJ Barea and Dampier were the matchup problems.

[Findog]

Strikeout take #2

I'm going to create a poll and we'll see who agrees with me.

[DAF86]

You're right, Dirk doesn't have this ability to make his teammates better. He beat the Spurs all by himself three months ago and role players like Brandon Bass and JJ Barea didn't contribute at all...or look like All Stars because of the defensive attention paid to Dirk.

I think Dirk is a great offensive player (maybe the best offensive PF in the league) but I don't think of him as a playmaker. And I think the fact that he averages 2.4 assts per game in almost 40 minutes per game while having the ball on his hands most of the time proves my point.

[portnoy1]

I'm going to create a poll and we'll see who agrees with me.
I poll is already up bro

[DAF86]

A team with Dirk as its best player came as close to winning a title as Al Gore came to being President.

A team with Manu as its best player will struggle to make the playoffs.

And you know this how?

All I know is that every team that was lead by Manu won everything it could.

[Findog]

I think Dirk is a great offensive player (maybe the best offensive PF in the league) but I don't think of him as a playmaker. And I think the fact that he averages 2.4 assts per game in almost 40 minutes per game while having the ball on his hands most of the time proves my point.

If you don't think an elite franchise player makes his teammates tougher to guard, then I don't know what to say.

[Findog]

And you know this how?

He's a fringe All Star. Dirk is a franchise player.


All I know is that every team that was lead by Manu won everything it could.

If Dirk was born in Argentina and drafted by the Spurs, he'd have just as many Gold Medals and more rings. Manu: Right Place, Right Time.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Dirk. The guy is nearly unstoppable.

[easy7]

Manu: Right Place, Right Time and Right Team.
Fixed :hat

[Findog]

Argentina wouldn't have won gold with Dirk instead of Manu. Nowitzki doesn't have the leadership nor the ability to make teammates better that Ginobili has. Besides Manu was a beast on the most difficult matches of that tournament.

[dbestpro]

I poll is already up bro

Its funny. He didn't like the results of this poll so he created essentially another one and had a troll call to sandbag his argument.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

This is the offseason Spurstalk that I know and love.

[Findog]

Its funny. He didn't like the results of this poll so he created essentially another one and had a troll call to sandbag his argument.

I have only one troll (MavericksDynasty) and he didn't vote in that poll.

[Findog]

Its funny. He didn't like the results of this poll so he created essentially another one and had a troll call to sandbag his argument.

I haven't voted in this poll and don't know what the results are.

[easy7]

Argentina wouldn't have won gold with Dirk instead of Manu. Nowitzki doesn't have the leadership nor the ability to make teammates better that Ginobili has. Besides Manu was a beast on the most difficult matches of that tournament.

Agree, Dirk being 100% healthy disappears when it matters the most. You can frustrate Dirk by getting on his face and he gives up.

[sonic21]

Agree, Dirk being 100% healthy disappears when it matters the most. You can frustrate Dirk by getting on his face and he gives up.

as we all saw in 2006 against the spurs

[MarCowMar]

Dirk. His build and skillset are more rare and with Duncan around things would open up even more for him.

That said I wouldn't begrudge anyone for picking Manu. He's a winner through and through and pairing either him or Dirk with Duncan=championships. There are so many things Manu brings to the game that most fans aren't aware of. Playing third wheel to Duncan and Parker has hidden a lot of his talent.

[Old School 44]

Agree, Dirk being 100% healthy disappears when it matters the most. You can frustrate Dirk by getting on his face and he gives up.

I wouldn't blame Dirk for giving up if this happened. :lol

[easy7]

as we all saw in 2006 against the spurs

And in 2007 against the Warriors...

[024]

dirk because he wouldn't have fouled manu in 2006 :stirpot:

[dirk4mvp]

Agree, Dirk being 100% healthy disappears when it matters the most. You can frustrate Dirk by getting on his face and he gives up.

Do you have the slightest clue as to what Dirk's career playoff numbers look like?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[DAF86]

dirk because he wouldn't have fouled manu in 2006 :stirpot:

That's true, Dirk wouldn't have even tried.

[Findog]

And in 2007 against the Warriors...

What is Dirk's career playoff averages? Because he SUCKS in the playoffs.

[Findog]

That's true, Dirk wouldn't have even tried.

Manu shouldn't have either. Watch the clip, Duncan just stands there and lets Dirk have a free path to the basket. Do you know why?

[Findog]

Manu's "leadership" and "intangibles" sure came in handy during the last 32 seconds of G7 of the 06 Semis.

[concken]

Do you have the slightest clue as to what Dirk's career playoff numbers look like?

stats are cool. stats get championships

[concken]

Manu's "leadership" and "intangibles" sure came in handy during the last 32 seconds of G7 of the 06 Semis.

get the fuck on our level...

[Findog]

stats are cool. stats get championships

Of all the active franchise players, how many have better playoff resumes than Dirk? I say only the following:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Paul Pierce
Jason Kidd if you want to give two Eastern titles more credence than one West title.

You're right, Dirk is basically like T-Mac when it comes to the playoffs.

[Findog]

get the fuck on our level...

Your level? One of your fellow Spurs fans made a crack about how Dirk wouldn't have contested a shot in that situation. Which is ironic, since that is exactly what the situation called for, letting the Mavs have an easy two and preventing a 3-ball or And One.

[concken]

You're right, Dirk is basically like T-Mac when it comes to the playoffs.

:lmao

[benefactor]

Kori or timvp...can you make this poll public for me? Thanks.

[concken]

Your level? One of your fellow Spurs fans made a crack about how Dirk wouldn't have contested a shot in that situation. Which is ironic, since that is exactly what the situation called for, letting the Mavs have an easy two and preventing a 3-ball or And One.

No, trust me, I remember what happened and what shoulda happened. You don't understand what I am trying to say

[benefactor]

I can't believe the poll is this close. The Spurs would be in the same sentence with Jordan's Bulls if Dirk was playing next to Timmy.

[Brazil]

I'm a spurs fan but I'm with Findog on this one. The Dirk/Tim combo would be deadly especially prime.
By the way I'd think the same for a Tim/TP vs. Tim/Dirk

[Findog]

No, trust me, I remember what happened and what shoulda happened. You don't understand what I am trying to say

You're right, I can't parse when someone is being obtuse.

[portnoy1]

In the 2004 Games Ginobili did different things on different nights they played. Against the US they needed his scoring 31pts. agaisnt Italy they needed his play-making 7ast. He filled in the blanks that his team created. Dirk can if he really wanted to, but hasn't. I ask Why not?

[benefactor]

I'm a spurs fan but I'm with Findog on this one. The Dirk/Tim combo would be deadly especially prime.
By the way I'd think the same for a Tim/TP vs. Tim/Dirk
Me too. I would take Dirk over Parker in a heartbeat. PG's and SG's that are serviceable can be found. A dominant front line creates a dynasty.

[Findog]

In the 2004 Games Ginobili did different things on different nights they played. Against the US they needed his scoring 31pts. agaisnt Italy they needed his play-making 7ast. He filled in the blanks that his team created. Dirk can if he really wanted to, but hasn't. I ask Why not?

Are you seriously comparing Argentina to Germany? Manu played on stacked Olympic teams. Germany is Dirk and a bunch of guys who would get run off the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

[Muser]

Fuck people, I love Manu but can you imagine this lineup

Parker
Jackson
Bowen
Dirk
Duncan

That's a team that will punish you whatever you do.

[anakha]

Are you seriously comparing Argentina to Germany? Manu played on stacked Olympic teams. Germany is Dirk and a bunch of guys who would get run off the court at a 24 Hour Fitness.

After seeing what I've seen of the German National Team since 2004, I can't help but agree.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori or timvp...can you make this poll public for me? Thanks.

No, it's not possible if you don't do it that way in the beginning. Sorry.

[benefactor]

Fuck people, I love Manu but can you imagine this lineup

Parker
(plug in anyone here)
Bowen
Dirk
Duncan

That's a team that will punish you whatever you do.
Fixed.

[anonoftheinternets]

manu had to swallow a lot of pride, to agree to become second banana, actually even agreed to come off bench. I dont think dirk will do that. Dirk is a franchise player, i dont think he should be playing second banana in any case.

Manu plays with so much heart that he reaches kobe levels, its not the same as when jordan, kobe, dirk, wade can do it throughout a season. He basically has that extra gear that allows him to compete at a GOAT level for a short period of time.

[HarlemHeat37]

Nobody denies Manu's heart..but GOAT level? come on now..

We all love Manu, but we all know there's 2 sides of him..there's the Manu that can dominate a game on both sides, make 5 3s in a row, get his teammates involved, get a nice dunk..and then there's the Manu in the same game, that will start chucking up bad shots, make no-look passes that go out of bounds, and will foul Dirk in a game 7 with the Spurs up by 3..

Manu's a great player, we wouldn't have 3 titles without him..but Dirk is a superstar, and this is a superstar's league..when you have the opportunity to have 2 superstars that compliment each other pretty well, you have to take it..

[weebo]

Not really. Dirk is a shooting big who can hit just about anything outside the lane and on the block Duncan was devastating during his prime. It would be easier to neutralize Manu with a good perimeter defender. There isn't a front line player in the league that is capable of guarding Dirk.

And there isn't a front line player in the league that Dirk is capable of guarding!:lol

[easy7]

Manu's "leadership" and "intangibles" sure came in handy during the last 32 seconds of G7 of the 06 Semis.

Yep, just like Dirk's came up in the last four games of the finals in 2006 and in 2007 against the warriors. I mean MVP and number one seed in the playoffs. That is what Dirk brings to the table, too bad he forgets his heart at home. I am sure that if he was with Duncan, he would not be the one of the two making a difference.

[benefactor]

And there isn't a front line player in the league that Dirk is capable of guarding!:lol
...and our other front line players have been defensive stalwarts. :rolleyes

The Spurs defensive scheme is predicated on two things....Duncan/Bowen taking care of the paint/perimeter and good team defense. As long as Dirk could make the right rotations he would be fine.

[weebo]

...and our other front line players have been defensive stalwarts. :rolleyes

The Spurs defensive scheme is predicated on two things....Duncan/Bowen taking care of the paint/perimeter and good team defense. As long as Dirk could make the right rotations he would be fine.

DN lateral quickness is lacking that's why he's been such an ineffective post defender. In this case, his defensive inadequacy would equal that of someone like Bonner. Trust me, I don't have anything against Dirk and I do watch a lot of his games but I understand that Manu has been the better player over the course of his career because his teams have won because of his contributions. Can you say that about Dirk?

And please don't make the argument that his role players choke or haven't been good enough because that is complete bull. Dirk has had great teams around him and he has failed to lead them to a title. Sure he can score on anyone but so can someone like Michael Redd. Does that make him better than Manu?

[ohmwrecker]

Offensively, Duncan and Nowitzki have a similar game. Dirk has a little more range, but Duncan destroys Dirk on defense. Which renders the pairing useless. Manu has the skills that Duncan and Nowitzki lack. So, obviously, Duncan and Manu are the superior pair.

[anonoftheinternets]

Nobody denies Manu's heart..but GOAT level? come on now..

We all love Manu, but we all know there's 2 sides of him..there's the Manu that can dominate a game on both sides, make 5 3s in a row, get his teammates involved, get a nice dunk..and then there's the Manu in the same game, that will start chucking up bad shots, make no-look passes that go out of bounds, and will foul Dirk in a game 7 with the Spurs up by 3..

Manu's a great player, we wouldn't have 3 titles without him..but Dirk is a superstar, and this is a superstar's league..when you have the opportunity to have 2 superstars that compliment each other pretty well, you have to take it..

well i was saying duncan, kobe, dirk are GOAT players, and manu can step up to GOAT for a small period of a game (like u said, hit 5 threes .. etc.) because of his heart... never said manu was GOAT level ...

[Findog]

Yep, just like Dirk's came up in the last four games of the finals in 2006 and in 2007 against the warriors. I mean MVP and number one seed in the playoffs. That is what Dirk brings to the table, too bad he forgets his heart at home. I am sure that if he was with Duncan, he would not be the one of the two making a difference.

Dirk was very good in the Finals. Wade was better. No shame in that. What the fuck are you talking about?

And if the Spurs fans get to whine about Timmeh being banged up and not 100% when the Spurs go fishing, why can't the same apply to Dirk and the Warriors series? He was hurt and still put up 19/10 in that series.

Do you even watch your team? It would be like me constantly tearing down Dwyane Wade, Steve Nash, Chris Paul or any of the the other guys that have owned Dallas in the playoffs. Then again, I'm arguing with an idiot that thinks Manu > Dirk and the Spurs would be worse of if you swapped the two straight up.

[Old School 44]

Dirk is a franchise player, Manu is not. Dirk is clearly the number one option for the Mavs. Do you think Manu would have been a franchise player and number one option if he went to a lesser team when he came into the league? I think so, but we will never know. When doing a comparison of the two, Manu is short changed because of it.

Another question, would be how would the Spurs have done the past 10 years if they swapped franchise players, Dirk for Tim?

[Findog]

Dirk is a franchise player, Manu is not. Dirk is clearly the number one option for the Mavs. Do you think Manu would have been a franchise player and number one option if he went to a lesser team when he came into the league? I think so, but we will never know. When doing a comparison of the two, Manu is short changed because of it.

It's ultimately an educated guess, but you can't compare what they've done in their unis, just what they would've done if they had swapped places. Assuming both the Mavs and Spurs would've found "serviceable" replacements for Manu and Dirk, how would those guys have done in each other's spot?


Another question, would be how would the Spurs have done the past 10 years if they swapped franchise players, Dirk for Tim?

At the very least a Finals appearance and probably one championship. Definitely not four. You'll never see me try to make the argument that Tim Duncan is not the greatest 4 of all time.

[Old School 44]

It's ultimately an educated guess, but you can't compare what they've done in their unis, just what they would've done if they had swapped places. Assuming both the Mavs and Spurs would've found "serviceable" replacements for Manu and Dirk, how would those guys have done in each other's spot?

That's a good point, but it's hard to say, because the op's question says they are in their "prime", which in both cases is top notch. And the question wasn't to see how they would do in each other spots on their respective teams, but whose game would better compliment Duncan's if you replaced one with the other. Sure Dirk/Tim combo would be a beast to handle, but IMO Manu's play making and slashing compliment Duncan's game better.

[Nathan Explosion]

Look, I'm a huge Spurs fans (as most of us are) but if you don't pick Dirk, you're lying to yourself.

First off, the "Dirk isn't a playmaker" argument is moot because Duncan initiates the offense on this team. Duncan is the quarterback. Second, the Spurs would have a frontline that would be better than anything the Lakers could throw at them with Odom and Gasol (can't mention Bynum because he's proven nothing). They'd have size and matchup nightmares galore.

Duncan in his prime would eat up the interior, and he'd be able to pass out of a double to Dirk if need be. At his size, Dirk can shoot over anyone.

Now, people are saying that Dirk is a choker, and use the 2006 Finals and 2007 playoffs as proof. Fair enough. Except that on the Spurs, Duncan is the unquestioned leader on the floor, and everyone follows his lead. No one would be looking to Dirk for answers because Tim's got them already.

Duncan in his prime is virtually unguardable. Dirk in his prime is virtually unguardable. When those two are on, what can you do? Who do you double and when? There's too much size on the floor, and way too much talent coming from those two to be beat.

We all love Gino, no doubt and he's a big reason the Spurs won 3 titles in 5 years. But with Dirk on the Spurs, starting in 2003, the Spurs would be a mortal lock to win at least two more time since then, and arguably be in the WCF every year as a result of this little switch.

[jag]

Look, I'm a huge Spurs fans (as most of us are) but if you don't pick Dirk, you're lying to yourself.


It's basically Spurs fans who refuse to be objective...and it's annoying.

Dirk has a skill set that is unparalleled when it comes to 7-footers.

[Findog]

That's a good point, but it's hard to say, because the op's question says they are in their "prime", which in both cases is top notch. And the question wasn't to see how they would do in each other spots on their respective teams, but whose game would better compliment Duncan's if you replaced one with the other. Sure Dirk/Tim combo would be a beast to handle, but IMO Manu's play making and slashing compliment Duncan's game better.

Nathan Explosion above lays it out better than I can, but you go with what is harder to defend. No doubt Manu was an integral part of 3 championships. It's simply true on its face that if the Spurs could've swapped them out straight up, they could've found any number of serviceable shooting guards and would still be much better.

[baseline bum]

Um, Dirk since he's at worst a top 10 player in this league, since he's a much better shooter, since he gets to the line more, since he can rebound better, and since he's an impossible matchup for most teams. I'd rather have one Dirk than two Manus.

[Nathan Explosion]

I'd rather have one Dirk than two Manus.

Now that, I'd have to think about. While Dirk is an almost impossible guard, can you imagine having two 2005 Ginos running around creating havoc for the other team? Two Gino's WOULD be impossible to guard.

Of course, on the flip side, Pop would be bald from tearing his hair out at some of the crazy plays the Ginos would try.

[timvp]

As much as I like Manu, it takes a homer to pick Manu over Dirk. The only way you can say Manu is if you are talking about having him for one big game or one quarter ... and even that remains a homer take. If you are talking about a whole season or a whole playoff run, it absolutely has to be Dirk.

It becomes even more true if you add TD to the equation. Imagine the nightmares of a team trying to defend Duncan in the blocks while their second bigman needs to be glued to Dirk. TD thrives when paired with a perimeter shooting bigman and Dirk is the best perimeter shooting bigman of all-time.

Now that I think about it, the better case can be made for Manu over Kobe than Manu over Dirk. There just isn't a legit argument for Manu over Dirk ... especially when factoring in Duncan.

[IronMexican]

Definitely Dirk. The fact that Dirk is winning on a Spurs message board says it all.

[Nathan Explosion]

Now that I think about it, the better case can be made for Manu over Kobe than Manu over Dirk.

The only case to be made for that is Kobe may not accept a role as second banana to Duncan. However, knowing Duncan, he may sacrifice his stats for the sake of winning, so the point may be moot as well.

[ElNono]

As much as I like Manu, it takes a homer to pick Manu over Dirk. The only way you can say Manu is if you are talking about having him for one big game or one quarter ... and even that remains a homer take. If you are talking about a whole season or a whole playoff run, it absolutely has to be Dirk.

It becomes even more true if you add TD to the equation. Imagine the nightmares of a team trying to defend Duncan in the blocks while their second bigman needs to be glued to Dirk. TD thrives when paired with a perimeter shooting bigman and Dirk is the best perimeter shooting bigman of all-time.

Now that I think about it, the better case can be made for Manu over Kobe than Manu over Dirk. There just isn't a legit argument for Manu over Dirk ... especially when factoring in Duncan.

Then comes the last free throw in the NBA Finals game that could decide the series. One of those guys is going to make it, and the other won't.
One will proceed to become a giant vajeje for the rest of the series, the other will lead to a championship.
When Duncan gets triple teamed, and you know it's going to happen, one will create for himself and others, the other player will hide behind the SJAXs of this league.
One will make a key steal and dunk to change the momentum of a game, the other will gladly provide a direct line to the basket in the middle of the paint.

Call me a homer. I'm taking the guy with balls to the wall.

[dirk4mvp]

Then comes the last free throw in the NBA Finals game that could decide the series. One of those guys is going to make it, and the other won't.
One will proceed to become a giant vajeje for the rest of the series, the other will lead to a championship.
When Duncan gets triple teamed, and you know it's going to happen, one will create for himself and others, the other player will hide behind the SJAXs of this league.
One will make a key steal and dunk to change the momentum of a game, the other will gladly provide a direct line to the basket in the middle of the paint.

Call me a homer. I'm taking the guy with balls to the wall.

That's funny cuz Dirk made the free throw after Manu helped send his own team packing in 06.

[ElNono]

That's funny cuz Dirk made the free throw after Manu helped send his own team packing in 06.

Yeah, I'm talking about '06

Y7cG9NrfhM0

[dirk4mvp]

For every clutch play Manu has, Dirk has 2.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

That's funny cuz Dirk made the free throw after Manu helped send his own team packing in 06.

:lol

[ElNono]

:blah

[dirk4mvp]

I love Arcade Fire. Check out their song called 'Rebellion'. They're great.

1OmE3B-s8ow

[dirk4mvp]

:drunk

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Prime version?

Manu. But for now I will take Dirk. Also KBP cannot vote in the poll because of the pink color issue.

[ElNono]

I love Arcade Fire. Check out their song called 'Rebellion'. They're great.

1OmE3B-s8ow

How that worked out for you?

[insert Mavs beat Spurs trophy picture here]

[Findog]

Yeah, I'm talking about '06

Y7cG9NrfhM0

Dirk played very well in the Finals after that missed FT. But if you want to talk about choking, I'd rather it take place in G3 than in G7:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/RnKYz5sfTSI/AAAAAAAAAHs/LASfGdzKRSc/s400/DirkManu.jpg

[Findog]

How that worked out for you?

[insert Mavs beat Spurs trophy picture here]

Are you too lazy to insert it in your post?

[benefactor]

DN lateral quickness is lacking that's why he's been such an ineffective post defender. In this case, his defensive inadequacy would equal that of someone like Bonner. Trust me, I don't have anything against Dirk and I do watch a lot of his games but I understand that Manu has been the better player over the course of his career because his teams have won because of his contributions. Can you say that about Dirk?

And please don't make the argument that his role players choke or haven't been good enough because that is complete bull. Dirk has had great teams around him and he has failed to lead them to a title. Sure he can score on anyone but so can someone like Michael Redd. Does that make him better than Manu?
You're whole post is full of fail. Dirk would not be leading anything...just like Manu didn't lead anything. Duncan is the unquestioned leader and Dirk would be the second option just like Manu is...only he would be a hundred times better because there is not a front line player in the league that could guard him on the perimeter. Did you just compare Dirk to Micheal Redd....I mean...seriously????

[benefactor]

Dammit I wish I would have payed more attention when I was making the poll. I'd love to see all the failures that voted for Manu.

[weebo]

That's funny cuz Dirk made the free throw after Manu helped send his own team packing in 06.

Dirk getting bitched slapped by david west and getting punked by sjax and the 8th seeded warrios. so much for dirk...

[ElNono]

Dirk played very well in the Finals after that missed FT. But if you want to talk about choking, I'd rather it take place in G3 than in G7:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/RnKYz5sfTSI/AAAAAAAAAHs/LASfGdzKRSc/s400/DirkManu.jpg

Manu was the reason we got to that play at all. Furthermore, Manu won 2 NBA championships before that play, and one more after that.

Dirk is still wondering what happened that year... Where did he go to clean his soul? Australia? LOL

[ElNono]

Are you too lazy to insert it in your post?

I'm too lazy to search for it. You know exactly what it looks like. :lol

[baseline bum]

I'd trade Manu and any two Spurs not named Duncan nor Parker for Dirk. In a second. Too bad Dallas wouldn't agree.

[ElNono]

This is how you close out a NBA Finals Game 7...

FFyzl1n_TJI

[BadOdor]

I'm gonna take a wild guess here, but is Elnono from argentine?

[anonoftheinternets]

Dammit I wish I would have payed more attention when I was making the poll. I'd love to see all the failures that voted for Manu.

well its not as clear cut as you put it. In the other poll i voted dirk + duncan would win, because yes Dirk is a very very special franchise player. But this question was second banana. And I dont think i ever saw anyone give up more, or be more flexible than manu (taking less salary, playing second/third fiddle, even coming off the bench). And this makes him a GREAT teammate and an excellent second banana. So Manu is a better second banana, but dirk is a better banana :p:.

Also obv a team with two francise players is just plain "wrong", and it would not happen. The only exception was kobe and shaq, and as we saw it failed coz the pond is not big enough, and eventually someone will offer one of the franchise players a team. (nash, dirk).

[mardigan]

Man, these poll results are pathetic.

[benefactor]

Mono needs to break out the trolls.

[Findog]

Manu was the reason we got to that play at all. More so Tim Duncan, but whatevs.


Furthermore, Manu won 2 NBA championships before that play, and one more after that.

Not as a franchise player. Manu is a borderline All Star; Dirk is a franchise player.


Two Franchise Players (Duncan/Dirk) is better than a franchise player and a borderline All Star (Tim/Manu.)

Do you believe Barack Obama was born in Hawaii?

[ElNono]

I'm gonna take a wild guess here, but is Elnono from argentine?

I was born there. Been in the US for the past 11+ years.

I DID say 'call me a homer' :lol

And I can only vote once...

[ElNono]

Not as a franchise player. Manu is a borderline All Star; Dirk is a franchise player.

Nope. He was made a franchise player, but he can't foot the bill. It's ok, it happens to a lot of guys. He would be a tremendous second banana, just like Manu is a tremendous second banana.


Do you believe Barack Obama was born in Hawaii?

I'm not Yoni...

[Findog]

Nope. He was made a franchise player, but he can't foot the bill. It's ok, it happens to a lot of guys. He would be a tremendous second banana, just like Manu is a tremendous second banana.

A team with Dirk as its best player can win a title. They came within an inch of it. At this point, it's not likely, but still possible. Manu is your best player and you're lucky to grab the eighth seed. If Dirk can't "cut it" as a franchise player, Manu surely can't. You're making my argument for me.

[barbacoataco]

As much as I love Manu, Dirk with Duncan would be an unstoppable matchup for any team. Dirk is such a matchup nightmare anyway. They would be perfect together, because Dirk doesn't play under the basket, and Duncan would make up for Dirk's shortcomings on defense and rebounding.

Manu is more clutch than Dirk by a mile, but from an objective point of view Nowitski is the better player and I'm not that much of a homer.

[ElNono]

A team with Dirk as its best player can win a title. They came within an inch of it. At this point, it's not likely, but still possible. Manu is your best player and you're lucky to grab the eighth seed. If Dirk can't "cut it" as a franchise player, Manu surely can't. You're making my argument for me.

I'm not claiming Dirk is a franchise player, you are, and he simply isn't a franchise player. Just as much as I don't claim Manu to be a franchise player, and he isn't.
The thread asked who would you rather have AS A SECOND BANANA (because, frankly, next to Duncan they both are) in their primes.
In their primes, I would take Gino every time. You'll disagree, that's fine.

[Findog]

I'm not claiming Dirk is a franchise player, you are, and he simply isn't a franchise player. Just as much as I don't claim Manu to be a franchise player, and he isn't.
The thread asked who would you rather have AS A SECOND BANANA (because, frankly, next to Duncan they both are) in their primes.
In their primes, I would take Gino every time. You'll disagree, that's fine.

Dirk is a top 10 player. Manu is a top 30 player. I personally believe that a top 10 player is by definition a franchise player and someone that is capable of being the best player on a championship team. In any given era, there's maybe 8-12 of those guys. Some it's more likely than others (Duncan 4 rings, KG 1). So if you asked me what I'd rather have, 1 top 5 player and another top 10 player (Duncan/Dirk), as opposed to 1 top 5 player and another top 30 player (Tim and Manu), I'd take the first option.

[ElNono]

Dirk is a top 10 player. Manu is a top 30 player. I personally believe that a top 10 player is by definition a franchise player and someone that is capable of being the best player on a championship team.

Opinion. I don't agree. I think they're both 1.5 players.

[Findog]

Opinion. I don't agree. I think they're both 1.5 players.

No, Manu is a 2.

[ElNono]

No, Manu is a 2.

No. Manu is a 1.5. He has been the Spurs option number 1 plenty of times, and even more so in crunch time. That made him unquestionably a 1.5.
You're a Mav fan, so I can't hold it against you if you didn't watch many Spurs games when Manu was in his prime.

[Findog]

No. Manu is a 1.5. He has been the Spurs option number 1 plenty of times, and even more so in crunch time. That made him unquestionably a 1.5.
You're a Mav fan, so I can't hold it against you if you didn't watch many Spurs games when Manu was in his prime.

You're massively overrating Manu. Yes, the Spurs like to run their offense through Manu on the second unit when Duncan catches a breather, and he's on the floor in crunchtime to play off of Duncan... but every time the Spurs play an overtime game, they begin feeding it in to Duncan non stop.

[Typhoon]

Manu all the way hobags, fucking Dirk sucks ass like Tony Parker.

Manu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest.

/thread

[barbacoataco]

No. Manu is a 1.5. He has been the Spurs option number 1 plenty of times, and even more so in crunch time. That made him unquestionably a 1.5.
You're a Mav fan, so I can't hold it against you if you didn't watch many Spurs games when Manu was in his prime.

Manu plays like a 1 when he's playing, but the best player on a team is expected to play big minutes night in and out and score 20 every night playing 38 mpg+. His type of game would never allow that. You have to take that into consideration when saying Manu is a franchise player.

Still, Manu is the man and has the hardware. Only in a forum discussion does Dirk have the upper hand.

[ElNono]

You're massively overrating Manu. Yes, the Spurs like to run their offense through Manu on the second unit when Duncan catches a breather, and he's on the floor in crunchtime to play off of Duncan... but every time the Spurs play an overtime game, they begin feeding it in to Duncan non stop.

Not true. Go take a look at '05 video. Every game of the playoffs. With under 3 mins to go, give the ball to Ginobili, TP GTFO, and TD wait under the basket until further notice. ISO at the top of the key with a pick from Nazr. Penetration and dunk/layup/dish to bowen/handout to Tim.

Mike D'Antoni is still trying to figure out how to stop it.
I think you massively overrate Dirk, and underrate Manu.

[ElNono]

Manu plays like a 1 when he's playing, but the best player on a team is expected to play big minutes night in and out and score 20 every night playing 38 mpg+. His type of game would never allow that. You have to take that into consideration when saying Manu is a franchise player.

Still, Manu is the man and has the hardware. Only in a forum discussion does Dirk have the upper hand.

I never claimed he's a franchise player.

[Findog]

Not true. Go take a look at '05 video. Every game of the playoffs. With under 3 mins to go, give the ball to Ginobili, TP GTFO, and TD wait under the basket until further notice. ISO at the top of the key with a pick from Nazr. Penetration and dunk/layup/dish to bowen/handout to Tim.

Mike D'Antoni is still trying to figure out how to stop it.

Manu Ginobili would not have life nearly as easy w/o Tim Duncan.

[ElNono]

Manu Ginobili would not have life nearly as easy w/o Tim Duncan.

In his prime, he could torch anybody. And I mean anybody. The difference, I think, is that Manu knows also how to take full advantage of another attention gatherer like Duncan. And that's one if his better qualities. His BB IQ as a complete team player is phenomenal. He knows when he needs to be the man, and he knows when it's better to get the team involved.
Obviously, stuff like that doesn't show in the stat sheet, so people tend to underrate him.

[Findog]

In his prime, he could torch anybody. And I mean anybody. The difference, I think, is that Manu knows also how to take full advantage of another attention gatherer like Duncan. And that's one if his better qualities. His BB IQ as a complete team player is phenomenal. He knows when he needs to be the man, and he knows when it's better to get the team involved.
Obviously, stuff like that doesn't show in the stat sheet, so people tend to underrate him.

He's a very good player. Deserved that All Star selection too. Dirk is still decisively better.

[DAF86]

I can't believe the poll is this close. The Spurs would be in the same sentence with Jordan's Bulls if Dirk was playing next to Timmy.

Dude, how can you prove that? Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't but stop using assumptions to argue. Manu has three NBA rings playing with Duncan, Manu has won everywhere he played, Manu lead his NT to the gold medal beating a US team that had Duncan, Iverson, Kidd, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, etc. and also Manu owns the head to head on international matches against Dirk, these aren't inventions these things actually happened in real life.

If you think Dirk at his prime was better than Manu at his prime cool, I don't think that is the case but I accept that that could be easily true. But dude if you think that Dirk is way way better than Manu, to the point that can't even be arguable, then you don't trully know how great Manu is and you have only saw him playing on the NBA.

[ElNono]

He's a very good player. Deserved that All Star selection too. Dirk is still decisively better.

Manu in a landslide. :lol

Anyhow, agree to disagree. I'm surprised nobody played the 'soft' card on Dirk yet...

[Findog]

Dude, how can you prove that? Maybe they would maybe they wouldn't but stop using assumptions to argue. Manu has three NBA rings playing with Duncan, Manu has won everywhere he played, Manu lead his NT to the gold medal beating a US team that had Duncan, Iverson, Kidd, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, etc. and also Manu owns the head to head on international matches against Dirk, these aren't inventions these things actually happened in real life.

If you think Dirk at his prime was better than Manu at his prime cool, I don't think that is the case but I accept that that could be easily true. But dude if you think that Dirk is way way better than Manu, to the point that can't even be arguable, then you don't trully know how great Manu is and you have only saw him playing on the NBA.

Benefactor is right. You're talking about basically minor league basketball and FIBA play, which should merit no consideration. And it's not really arguable that Manu is better than Dirk in their prime, because 30 out of 30 coaches and GMs would disagree with you.

[DAF86]

Benefactor is right. You're talking about basically minor league basketball and FIBA play, which should merit no consideration. And it's not really arguable that Manu is better than Dirk in their prime, because 30 out of 30 coaches and GMs would disagree with you.

Since you all love pretending let's pretend.

Put Dirk on the Spurs at age 24 like Manu when he got to the NBA playing behind Duncan and Robinson, let's pretend they would have still defetead LA in 2003 and then go onto win at least two of the next 4 championships. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have developed the way he did on the Mavs. At best He would be now considered a great sidekick to one of the greatest of all-time and depending on the season he would be a bordeline all-star.

Now put Manu on the NBA at age 20 (so he has time to develop on the league and doesn't waste two of his best years adapting as a rookie and a sophemore) on team where he could be the man. I'm sure that with time he would lead a team pretty far into the playoffs ('cause that what he does, sooner or later he will win) maybe don't win it all but deep enough to be considered a bonafide franchise player.

Who do you think most NBA fans would select as the better player?

[Findog]

Now put Manu on the NBA at age 20 (so he has time to develop on the league and doesn't waste two of his best years adapting as a rookie and a sophemore) on team where he could be the man. I'm sure that with time he would lead a team pretty far into the playoffs ('cause that what he does, sooner or later he will win) maybe don't win it all but deep enough to be considered a bonafide franchise player.




I'll be generous and say Manu is as good as Joe Johnson. In which case, he could win a playoff series in the East and make the playoffs in the West as a #1 guy. Dirk has a Western Conference title. Sorry, Dirk is a top 10 guy, Manu is a top 30 guy. If Manu had been put on shitty lottery team at the age of 21 without the benefit of playing alongside Tim Duncan and Tony Parker and for the best coach in the league, I'm not sure he even makes it to Top 30 status.


Who do you think most NBA fans would select as the better player?

Overwhelmingly Dirk.

[Rogue]

I'll be generous and say Manu is as good as Joe Johnson. In which case, he could win a playoff series in the East and make the playoffs in the West as a #1 guy. Dirk has a Western Conference title. Sorry, Dirk is a top 10 guy, Manu is a top 30 guy. If Manu had been put on shitty lottery team at the age of 21 without the benefit of playing alongside Tim Duncan and Tony Parker and for the best coach in the league, I'm not sure he even makes it to Top 30 status.



Overwhelmingly Dirk.
:( The Mavs have never been a shitty team like the Spurs acted as in the 96-97 season, and predictably they got the No.1 pick that year which turned to be Tim Duncan on the draft night.

[cherylsteele]

Duncan in his prime is a 1. Manu in his prime is a 2. Dirk in his prime is a 1.5

Put Dirk in place of Manu in any situation and that team is better off.
Homer take #3

[Greg Oden]

I'm a dipshit.

[Nathan Explosion]

Okay, the homerism is getting ridiculous. First off, if you pop in the 2005 video, you'd see Duncan taking on both Wallaces and besting them in the 4 wins. Remember, at the time, this was one of the most feared duos defensively. Duncan was an absolute monster on two bad ankles.

Second, Gino isn't a second banana anymore, Parker is. Gino has special qualities for sure, but Parker in his prime has one piece of NBA hardware that Gino doesn't have, a Finals MVP.

Third, Dirk is far and away a superior player than Gino because, as fun and great as Gino was, there were other wing players as good or better. Gino was a winner, but if TMac, Kobe, VC, Lebron or even Wade were in his place, I'd imagine that Spurs would be just as successful.

However, name me another big man that could play alongside Duncan and be as good as Dirk. KG, Rasheed and maybe the Pau Gasol we've been seeing the past two years. Dirk would be much harder to replace than Gino.

[Greg Oden]

At this point, Manu is a glorified role player. Parker's been the second best player on the team for a while now.

[Nathan Explosion]

At this point, Manu is a glorified role player. Parker's been the second best player on the team for a while now.

While I don't agree with it, some have argued Parker is the best player on the Spurs right now.

[benefactor]

Good lawd, you freaking homers are ridiculous. Even the Parker homers are willing to concede that Dirk on this team would be better than TP.

It's not rocket science. Dirk is arguably the greatest shooting PF of all time. Bird is the only one that could even be considered better. If you take him and put him next to one of the greatest post players of all time you get a ton of championships...especially a player like Duncan whose game matches up perfectly with shooting bigs. And stop it with the "that's just an assumption, you don't know that for sure" garbage. It's a cop out and makes sound even more like a homer. News flash....every single bit of NBA recruiting is based on assumption. The Lakers trade for Gasol because they assume that putting him next to Kobe will get them titles. The Spurs draft Tim Duncan because it's safe to assume that he has the potential to be a franchise player. If you put Dirk and Duncan on the same front line you will get a bunch of damn championships. Only a dumbass or completely blind, biased fans like yourselves would think otherwise.

[Muser]

:( The Mavs have never been a shitty team like the Spurs acted as in the 96-97 season, and predictably they got the No.1 pick that year which turned to be Tim Duncan on the draft night.

And what a good night it was :toast

[Muser]

Good lawd, you freaking homers are ridiculous. Even the Parker homers are willing to concede that Dirk on this team would be better than TP.

It's not rocket science. Dirk is arguably the greatest shooting PF of all time. Bird is the only one that could even be considered better. If you take him and put him next to one of the greatest post players of all time you get a ton of championships...especially a player like Duncan whose game matches up perfectly with shooting bigs. And stop it with the "that's just an assumption, you don't know that for sure" garbage. It's a cop out and makes sound even more like a homer. News flash....every single bit of NBA recruiting is based on assumption. The Lakers trade for Gasol because they assume that putting him next to Kobe will get them titles. The Spurs draft Tim Duncan because it's safe to assume that he has the potential to be a franchise player. If you put Dirk and Duncan on the same front line you will get a bunch of damn championships. Only a dumbass or completely blind, biased fans like yourselves would think otherwise.

:tu

[Findog]

Homer take #3

You're a dumbass.

[all_heart]

Only reason to take Dirk is for pure offense. A good reason.. however Manu gives you offense from a diff. perspective, the slashing, driving, passing and pull up 3's. Yes, Dirk can do some of that too but Manu's style of play when healthy really keeps the defense off balance. Dirk is not a traditional big, so he can't bang and won't block shots. Besides Manu has more cajones and is more clutch than Dirk. **choker**

[Rogue]

Only reason to take Dirk is for pure offense. A good reason.. however Manu gives you offense from a diff. perspective, the slashing, driving, passing and pull up 3's. Yes, Dirk can do some of that too but Manu's style of play when healthy really keeps the defense off balance. Dirk is not a traditional big, so he can't bang and won't block shots. Besides Manu has more cajones and is more clutch than Dirk. **choker**
I have to admit the conclusion is still lightyears away from the debate on whose career is better between Dirk and Manu, as it's truely a hard job to define how much a ring weighs, but you can only embarrass yourself to claim Manu a better player (which means more talented) than Dirk when it comes to the abilities of the two individuals. Dirk is even more skillful than most guards in NBA league in shooting, dribbling and assisting, and if you are asked to name another guy with both his size and skills as great as Dirks, you will have to go back to the 1980s for Larry Bird, even if Dirk is by a hair less great than Bird. Manu just fits in a system that also fits him well, his skills are unarguably more than decent but such skills aren't so amazing for a 6'7 guard as for a guy in Dirk's size. And Manu doesn't have any advantage in basetball IQ either, at most the prime Manu is just Josh Howard with a slightly higher basketball IQ.

[Findog]

Only reason to take Dirk is for pure offense. A good reason.. however Manu gives you offense from a diff. perspective, the slashing, driving, passing and pull up 3's. Yes, Dirk can do some of that too but Manu's style of play when healthy really keeps the defense off balance. Dirk is not a traditional big, so he can't bang and won't block shots. Besides Manu has more cajones and is more clutch than Dirk. **choker**

If Dirk is a choker, then so is Manu. Real clutch play here from Manu:

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0610/nba_g_nowitzki01_576.jpg

[SpurCharger]

I go Manu, He Is More Clutch, he wants the Ball In clutch Situations....... I always See Jason terry Taking The Final Shot for Dallas

[Findog]

. I always See Jason terry Taking The Final Shot for Dallas

You don't watch much basketball then:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/RnKYz5sfTSI/AAAAAAAAAHs/LASfGdzKRSc/s400/DirkManu.jpg

Not that there's anything wrong with passing off to an open teammate:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0706/gallery.nba.finals.15.most.memorable.moments/images/john-paxson.jpg

http://the208.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/fisher-4.jpg

[Findog]

^ Shouldn't Jordan and Kobe have taken those shots for their team in those situations? Nice D by Manu in both those situations, btw. Very clutch. Heart of a Champion and all that...

[My Fault]

Wow the homers in here are crazy to think that Tim/Dirk frontline wouldn't destroy. Manu is great but Dirk is still better.

[in2deep]

I like players who play decent D so I gotta go with Manu

[Findog]

I like players who play decent D so I gotta go with Manu

:lmao

Manu is no better at defending his position than Dirk is his. Some of you homers have some serious frontal lobe damage.

[in2deep]

:lmao

Manu is no better at defending his position than Dirk is his. Some of you homers have some serious frontal lobe damage.

Manu is an above average SG defender. Sometimes a great one.

Dirk is usually below average. Sometimes really bad.

I like defensive teams. You can pick Dirk, I won't critizize you.

Additionally, with Duncan being older, he needs help on the block. What help is Dirk gonna give him? not much.

I rather pair Timmy up with a player like McDyess :) he will get some help on the defensive and and rebounding.

[Muser]

If Dirk/Duncan where on the same team (in their prime), would that be the best 1/2 combo?

[sonic21]

Manu is an above average SG defender. Sometimes a great one.

Dirk is usually below average. Sometimes really bad.

I like defensive teams. You can pick Dirk, I won't critizize you.

guys like tony and manu look like good defender because of duncan/bruce and the spurs system. They are good help defenders, but their 1 on 1 defense is average.

[in2deep]

BTW Findog. If Duncan was 3 or 4 years younger and healthier, then definitely I would pick Dirk over Manu, since Duncan could man the whole paint.

sue me, I like defensive teams. This is same reason why I pick Bowen over Finley

[in2deep]

They are good help defenders, but their 1 on 1 defense is average.

Dirk is a below average help defender and a horrible 1 on 1 defender.

This would mean Duncan has to guard the top bigman on the other team. That is too much to ask for Timmy in a 80 game season at this point in his career.

[Findog]

Manu is an above average SG defender. Sometimes a great one.

:lmao


Dirk is usually below average. Sometimes really bad.

2003 Forum




Additionally, with Duncan being older, he needs help on the block. What help is Dirk gonna give him? not much.

I guess you're not familiar with the concept of inside-out.


I rather pair Timmy up with a player like McDyess :) he will get some help on the defensive and and rebounding.

So to sum up, Antonio McDyess > Dirk. Umm, okay....

[Findog]

BTW Findog. If Duncan was 3 or 4 years younger and healthier, then definitely I would pick Dirk over Manu, since Duncan could man the whole paint.

Dirk will never make an All-Defense team, but he has greatly improved on that end.




Scouting report: Nowitzki has improved greatly as a defender in recent seasons and is now capable of playing quality post defense or stepping out on the perimeter to help against the pick-and-roll. His lateral movement remains suspect and gets him in trouble against quick forwards at times, but he has a nice strip move he uses on opposing post players, he's an excellent defensive rebounder (12th at his position in defensive rebound rate), and he blocked shots at an above-average rate for a power forward.

[Muser]

I'm not saying Dirk has Duncan/B. Wallace/Garnett etc. caliber defender, but he's much better than some people are making him out to be.

[hater]

the 3 time champ over the choking 7 foot guard

[Findog]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE5DB1F31F931A35756C0A9639C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all



Dirk Nowitzki was relaxing by his pool on this warm spring Sunday in Texas, reflecting on a topsy-turvy series and seeing where he fit into the picture.

Tracy McGrady has held up his end of the shootout for the Rockets, even as his team lost the last two games in Houston. But Nowitzki, the 7-footer from Germany who had an M.V.P.-caliber regular season for Dallas, has been hitting shots at a 37 percent clip in the playoffs and has just one 3-pointer in four attempts.

Even more out of character, Nowitzki has been playing defense. Really. He has.

''That was kind of my weakness over the last couple of years,'' he said by phone after he left the Mavericks' practice.

''My jump shot always indicated my game. If my jump shot wasn't going, I wasn't playing as hard and I was not as active on the court. But as I got older, I matured. You want to be able to dominate the game in other ways.''

Once criticized as Irk for not having 'D' in his game, Nowitzki is now just irksome in the clutch for opponents. And because of that, the Mavericks, after losing their first two games at home, have evened the first-round series at 2-2.

Consider Nowitzki's fourth quarter in Game 4 on Saturday. He was 0 for 4, but he had five assists, four rebounds and a key steal off Houston's Yao Ming in the final minute, leading to a crucial jumper by Michael Finley to preserve a 2-point lead.

Nowitzki's scuffle for a loose ball set up Jason Terry's winning 3-pointer with 26 seconds left.

''My whole thing with Dirk is, what can you do to help our team win?'' Mavericks Coach Avery Johnson said after practice at American Airlines Arena. ''The last two games, his defense has improved. That's why we won.''

Johnson's message to Nowitzki has been clear: ''You have a lot of guys on this team that are capable. You don't always have to feel that it's you against the Rockets.''

But the Rockets have certainly focused on him, at times leaving Terry and Finley more open on the perimeter. Credit the Rockets for their defense, Nowitzki said, singling out McGrady.

''Really this whole series, they've been running two guys at me, sometimes three,'' Nowitzki said. ''They know that's my strength. Getting my team involved is something I want to work on the next couple of years. I want to be a great passer.''

Nowitzki finished the regular season with career highs in assists (3.1 per game) and blocks (1.5) to go along with his 26.1-point scoring average. His 3-point attempts were down, but his efficiency was up.

When Johnson took over for Don Nelson on March 19, he changed offensive strategies and had Nowitzki taking fewer quick 3-pointers. The Mavericks' shooting percentage jumped to sixth in the league from 22nd over the final 30 games.

''The last couple of years, we've always been a jump-shooting team and we never really won anything,'' Nowitzki said. ''Our approach changed -- those last couple of weeks before the playoffs, I wasn't scoring like 30, 35 to win -- but we were still on a nine-game winning streak.''

In this series, Johnson has gone with a smaller lineup, keeping Nowitzki on the low block more to create mismatches. His lone 3-pointer of the playoffs was at the first-quarter buzzer Saturday.

''If you're not getting in rhythm early, not getting the shots you're looking for, you miss a shot that's usually money -- it's been difficult,'' said Nowitzki, who has averaged 23.3 points in the playoffs. ''But we're tied. We're not doing that badly.''

Finley said: ''I'm a true believer that work pays off, and Dirk is one of the hardest workers in this league. His day will come and he will shoot lights out. He's shooting terrible and we're winning, that's still a good thing.''

Nowitzki said he planned to return to American Airlines Arena with his personal coach from Germany, Holger Geschwinder, for an evening practice. In the late afternoon, he and Geschwinder were discussing, feet dangling in the pool, how to make adjustments.

''Before Dirk turned professional, we had a seven-step plan for his game,'' Geschwinder said. ''We're at Step 5. Every summer, we add another tool, and now we're starting to do more on defense.''

The two worked on Nowitzki's foot speed and strength, helping him guard three positions. They conferred with Nelson, as they had previously, to develop a plan, but offensively that changed when Johnson became coach.

''We have a little confusion -- we had not been prepared like in years before,'' Geschwinder said. ''But in the last game, you have seen at least one hook shot from Dirk. If he is more confident in that shot, then he's unstoppable.''

Nowitzki has been named to the all-N.B.A. team four straight years, but never higher than the second team.

''It's so important for him to make that step where he's on the first team all-N.B.A., he had to develop the rest of his game,'' the assistant coach Del Harris said, noting Nowitzki's shot deflections and loose-ball hustles. ''These, what appear to be incidental items, appear to be the ones which set guys apart like Jordan and Kobe and Garnett.''

Jeff Van Gundy, the Rockets' coach, saw as the season progressed how Nowitzki changed his game. ''I think he really figured it out defensively how to be better in a lot of different ways,'' Van Gundy said. ''He's really a great, great player.''

[Findog]

the 3 time champ over the choking 7 foot guard

Lucky for the Spurs that Pop and Buford run the team and not you. They'd trade Manu for Dirk in a heartbeat.

[hater]

Lucky for the Spurs that Pop and Buford run the team and not you. They'd trade Manu for Dirk in a heartbeat.

that is true. :hat

[MB20]

Dirk > Manu

[Nathan Explosion]

I bet if I started a poll stating who would you pick, Gino or Kobe, Gino would win that poll too.

Again, I love Gino and loathe Kobe's personality, but I'd take Kobe in half a heartbeat if possible.

[benefactor]

Manu fan is just pathetic sometimes. In the words of the late Pimp C, "You embarrassing us".

[BadOdor]

Manu fan is just pathetic sometimes. In the words of the late Pimp C, "You embarrassing us".

What do you expect from those Argentine savages from south america? they aren't even NBA fans, just manu fans.

Dirk>>Manu.

[hater]

^ lol pink

[DAF86]

Manu fan is just pathetic sometimes. In the words of the late Pimp C, "You embarrassing us".

You mad 'cause you didn't get the result you expected?

[DAF86]

I bet if I started a poll stating who would you pick, Gino or Kobe, Gino would win that poll too.

Again, I love Gino and loathe Kobe's personality, but I'd take Kobe in half a heartbeat if possible.

Start it, I'm pretty sure Kobe would win. I know I'd vote for Kobe.

[benefactor]

You mad 'cause you didn't get the result you expected?
No, I am just in awe of the stupidity.

[Findog]

No, I am just in awe of the stupidity.

It was an anonymous poll. This one makes more sense:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132826

[DAF86]

No, I am just in awe of the stupidity.

How can you be so sure that Manu is so much worst than Dirk when you haven't even seen half of Manu's career?

You sound like if people were saying that Manu is better than Jordan.

[DAF86]

Do you remember Manu at his prime? the guy would put 25 points per game taking just 9 shots attemps.


Since you all love pretending let's pretend.

Put Dirk on the Spurs at age 24 like Manu when he got to the NBA playing behind Duncan and Robinson, let's pretend they would have still defetead LA in 2003 and then go onto win at least two of the next 4 championships. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have developed the way he did on the Mavs. At best He would be now considered a great sidekick to one of the greatest of all-time and depending on the season he would be a bordeline all-star.

Now put Manu on the NBA at age 20 (so he has time to develop on the league and doesn't waste two of his best years adapting as a rookie and a sophemore) on team where he could be the man. I'm sure that with time he would lead a team pretty far into the playoffs ('cause that what he does, sooner or later he will win) maybe don't win it all but deep enough to be considered a bonafide franchise player.

Who do you think most NBA fans would select as the better player?

Those are the remarks I would like to remember.

[dbestpro]

It was an anonymous poll. This one makes more sense:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132826

A poll of 46 people over 102 makes more sense. Maybe you should take back that resume you sent to Gallup.

:lmao

[benefactor]

How can you be so sure that Manu is so much worst than Dirk when you haven't even seen half of Manu's career?

You sound like if people were saying that Manu is better than Jordan.
How about you start actually using your brain. Two great front line players>>>>great front line player and SG. Every single time.

[in2deep]

How can you be so sure that Manu is so much worst than Dirk when you haven't even seen half of Manu's career?


no need. Manu never got to Dirk talent or dominance level. or if he did he did only briefly, maybe in 2005. Dirk has consistently held that level for many years. He won league MVP! that alone makes him > Manu

[DAF86]

How about you start actually using your brain. Two great front line players>>>>great front line player and SG. Every single time.

Shaq and Kobe > Tim and Robinson from 2000 'till 2002

[DAF86]

no need. Manu never got to Dirk talent or dominance level. or if he did he did only briefly, maybe in 2005. Dirk has consistently held that level for many years. He won league MVP! that alone makes him > Manu


Since you all love pretending let's pretend.

Put Dirk on the Spurs at age 24 like Manu when he got to the NBA playing behind Duncan and Robinson, let's pretend they would have still defetead LA in 2003 and then go onto win at least two of the next 4 championships. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have developed the way he did on the Mavs. At best He would be now considered a great sidekick to one of the greatest of all-time and depending on the season he would be a bordeline all-star.

Now put Manu on the NBA at age 20 (so he has time to develop on the league and doesn't waste two of his best years adapting as a rookie and a sophemore) on team where he could be the man. I'm sure that with time he would lead a team pretty far into the playoffs ('cause that what he does, sooner or later he will win) maybe don't win it all but deep enough to be considered a bonafide franchise player.

Who do you think most NBA fans would select as the better player?

[sonic21]

Shaq and Kobe > Tim and Robinson from 2000 'till 2002

robinson was past his prime

[DAF86]

20 votes in 1 minute? lol Bump.

[LionZion]

Confused with this whole thread.

Why is Dirk a second fiddle? He is a franchise player, whatever his faults maybe.

Manu is not a franchise player. But Manu is the killer for post season.

How can we compare the two? If its franchise players, well, I would take lazy fat overweight Shaq from early this decade and still win more titles with him alongside Timmeh. Nobody has embarrassment of riches in this league other than LA and Celts.

So if its second fiddles we are talking about, Manu is all I ever hoped for.

[DAF86]

God dam, this DAF86 mofo is all over Manu's nut sack.

:lmao Hi Courtney didn't know you post here.

[Muser]

Shaq and Kobe > Tim and Robinson from 2000 'till 2002


You're comparing DRob and Timmy to Dirk and Timmy? DRob was a shell of himself in those years.

[Rogue]

the 3 time champ over the choking 7 foot guard
Robert Horry has 7 rings, so it's inarguable Robert Horry is among the greatest players of all time NBA, and you can only list some guys serving the celtics dynasty as better players than him.

[Thunder Dynasty]

Dirk > Manu

[benefactor]

Shaq and Kobe > Tim and Robinson from 2000 'till 2002
Again, use your brain. 90's DRob with 00's Duncan would dust the three peat Lakers.

[Frank Lucas]

People who think Manu > Dirk are shooting up too much blue magic.

[Jim_Rome]

Amazing. Unbelievable.



Manu fans are on the prowl in this thread. I don't know what's more pathetic. Actually buying an Ungrateful Dead album or casting your vote for Manu in this thread. I'm baffled. I'm guessing if you voted for Manu you more than likely casted your vote for the republican ticket last year also. How's that working out for you? Oh wait, you couldn't have, because you live in a country without running water. It's cool tho. At least you have soccer.


Rome. out.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[Frank Lucas]

All I know is that every team that was lead by Manu won everything it could.


God dam your one stupid Argentinian beaner.

[Alonzo Harris]

Damn nigga, I can not fucking believe what kind of low grade bullshit is goin on in this thread. Are you Manu fans able to sleep at night or does your bullshit opinions keep you up? There's a difference here, Manu fans. Decide if you're going to be a sheep or a wolf.

[Old School 44]

How about you start actually using your brain. Two great front line players>>>>great front line player and SG. Every single time.

I can live with Dirk/Tim>>>>Manu/Tim,
but Dirk/Tim>>>>Jordan/Tim? I'd take the latter combo over any two front line players.

[Frank Lucas]

Alonzo speaks Da Troof.

[urunobili]

Amazing. Unbelievable.



Manu fans are on the prowl in this thread. I don't know what's more pathetic. Actually buying an Ungrateful Dead album or casting your vote for Manu in this thread. I'm baffled. I'm guessing if you voted for Manu you more than likely casted your vote for the republican ticket last year also. How's that working out for you? Oh wait, you couldn't have, because you live in a country without running water. It's cool tho. At least you have soccer.


Rome. out.
:lol at the sore ass loser troll showing up on his alter ego persona :lmao

Props it was a good one...

:rollin

[Frank Lucas]

I can live with Dirk/Tim>>>>Manu/Tim,
but Dirk/Tim>>>>Jordan/Tim? I'd take the latter combo over any two front line players.

Well Dirk > Manu but Jordan > Dirk, quit comparing apples to oranges.

[urunobili]

20 votes in 1 minute? lol Bump.
:lmao

[Eminem]

Not Bump on any of them. We're real people with real feeling too.


Spaghetti SpaghettiSpaghettiSpaghettiSpaghettiSpaghettiSpagh ettiSpaghettiSpaghettiSpaghettiSpaghettiSpaghetti

[Eminem]

Damn look at Manu. There's vomit on his sweater already.

[Frank Lucas]

lol Argentina
lol still using out houses
lol corrupt government

[FromWayDowntown]

Without reading through this whole thread, I'll just say that anyone who chooses Manu over Dirk is out of his or her mind.

[Frank Lucas]

Damn look at Manu. There's vomit on his sweater already.


Was he nervous, cause on the surface he looks calm and ready?

[Frank Lucas]

lol Argentina

[Rapping Scola]

lol Argentina
There is a whole Nation behind Manu in Argentina... Dirk Means Jackshit for Germany he hasn´t won anything for them...

[Frank Lucas]

^:lmao

[Mickey O'Neil]

damnthe manufansareahkindaslowin braihns! votefarde prpar prson. i do et far me mah!

[Frank Lucas]

There is a whole Nation behind Manu in Argentina


Is the combine net worth of Argentina still $1.00 or has it gone up to $1.50 yet?

[BadOdor]

Without reading through this whole thread, I'll just say that anyone who chooses Manu over Dirk is out of his or her mind.

we've already established that it's simply all the argentine savage posters being over manu's nut sack.

lol no running water.

[Rapping Scola]

Is the combine net worth of Argentina still $1.00 or has it gone up to $1.50 yet?
:lol bitch you guys don´t even know what rooting for a team is... :loser

[Rapping Scola]

jackshit? then what do you think Yao means to his country, a 7'6 piece of yellow ****?
Profitable role figure to be proud of... Sun Yue >>>>>> Yao in China nowadays... Yao publicly said he envies him

[Muser]

Troll forum

[Spooky]

Both have heart and the will to win. One has proven to be a great 2nd banana, willing to do what the coach needs of him to 3 titles. The other could also be very good with TD. One has shown to be willing to play for less money. The other, I don't think would play for 10 million. So Manu IMO.

[Frank Lucas]

lol no running water.


lol don't have toilets

[Frank Lucas]

:lol bitch you guys don´t even know what rooting for a team is... :loser


Why do you look like such a queer btw?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Both have heart and the will to win. One has proven to be a great 2nd banana, willing to do what the coach needs of him to 3 titles. The other could also be very good with TD. One has shown to be willing to play for less money. The other, I don't think would play for 10 million. So Manu IMO.
Dirk is worth way more than $10 million.

[anonoftheinternets]

another thread ruined by unfunny trolls ...

[benefactor]

I can live with Dirk/Tim>>>>Manu/Tim,
but Dirk/Tim>>>>Jordan/Tim? I'd take the latter combo over any two front line players.
You took it to a whole new level...but I'm game.

I'd take Duncan/Dream over Duncan/Jordan....easily.

[Frank Lucas]

another thread ruined by unfunny trolls ...


The Argentinian nut huggers ruined it, we just kicked it while it was down.

[benefactor]

another thread ruined by unfunny trolls ...
It was ruined a long time ago by Manusexuals who can't seem to think beyond anything not relating to Manu.

[ElNono]

It was ruined a long time ago by Manusexuals who can't seem to think beyond anything not relating to Manu.

Why was it ruined? What expectations did you have with this thread?