Better player: Joe Johnson or Manu Ginobili

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This stems from the Manu vs. Dirk thread in the Spurs section. Poll coming. Discuss.

[JMarkJohns]

Better talent: Joe Johnson
Player who's gotten more out of his talent: Manu Ginobili

If you're strictly discussing each player's peak, right now I'd take Manu. Johnson is an amazing player and without a doubt more talented, but he coasts. Manu never coasts (at least not when I see him). I don't think JJ will ever maximize his talent the way Manu has.

Now, if your toss up is "right now, who's better?", then I'll take JJ, but that's not really fair to Manu since he's so much older.

[Phillip]

joe johnson, without question

[Rodriguez]

joe johnson, without question
thre anillos, puta.

[Culburn369]

Manu.

Joe Johnson has a lot of Casper in him and he's a fraidy cat ta boot. A straw dog as well.

Ginobili will hunt an opponent and take joy in the kill/an absolute rarity for a foreign born player.

Johnson wants no part of the hunt, nor the kill.

[Rogue]

Manu.

Joe Johnson has a lot of Casper in him and he's a fraidy cat ta boot. A straw dog as well.

Ginobili will hunt an opponent and take joy in the kill/an absolute rarity for a foreign born player.

Johnson wants no part of the hunt, nor the kill.
I drafted Joe Johnson last night, with my second rounder which could have been used on Manu. :(

[JMarkJohns]

Is this a fantasy basketball question?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Johnson wants no part of the hunt, nor the kill.


Wtf do you mean? He left Phoenix because he wanted to be the man in Atlanta and take all the big shots. Both JJ and Manu are two clutch players that both love taking the big shot, you can't argue the clutch factor against either one.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is this a fantasy basketball question?


In order to appreciate Rogue you have to understand his sense of humor, something that took me a long time to do.

[Culburn369]

i drafted joe johnson last night, with my second rounder which could have been used on manu. :(


lol!

[MB20]

Joe Johnson > Dirk

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I guess JJ should get criticized for not always giving a full effort, I'll admit that's the case. He was medically cleared to play game 1 and 2 of the WCF in 2005, but he didn't play because he was worried two bad games he might have would affect the contract he got the next season.

[Culburn369]

Wtf do you mean? He left Phoenix because he wanted to be the man in Atlanta and take all the big shots. Both JJ and Manu are two clutch players that both love taking the big shot, you can't argue the clutch factor against either one.

Johnson talked the talk, but, he's never walked it.

Johnson never looks eye.

Manu same thing, but, Manu never looks because he just busted somebody's ass and he won't even give them the courtesy (the out) to "see" them. It's a mental ploy, and its wonderful to behold. Duncan looks, Parker looks, Kobe looks, but, Manu don't look...."fuck you." he's saying to himself.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And btw I'm not saying JJ is way better than Manu, I expect this to be a close poll. Part of the reason I made it.

[MB20]

For the regular season - JJ
For the playoffs, give me Manu

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Johnson talked the talk, but, he's never walked it.


I think JJ has more than walked the walk. When he left Phoenix everyone (including myself) was laughing thinking the Hawks would suck his entire career and he'd never be able to lead a team. I'd say he's getting the last laugh winning more playoff games than Phoenix each of the last two seasons.

[IronMexican]

JJ is all talk. As much as I'd like to vote JJ to piss of Spurfans, Manu is better.

[picc84]

Manu, imo.

But close.

[Phillip]

For the regular season - JJ
For the playoffs, give me Manu

Has JJ been a postseason choker?

No, from what I recall, he pretty much singlehandedly led the Hawks to a 7 game series against the Celtics a couple years ago, when EVERYONE thought it would be an easy sweep. JJ his a lot of BIG shots in that series too.

JJ is an underrated and clutch player. And is much better of a basketball player than Ginobili. Replace JJ with Ginobili on that Hawks team, and they don't even sniff the playoffs.

[MB20]

Has JJ been a postseason choker?

No, from what I recall, he pretty much singlehandedly led the Hawks to a 7 game series against the Celtics a couple years ago, when EVERYONE thought it would be an easy sweep. JJ his a lot of BIG shots in that series too.

JJ is an underrated and clutch player. And is much better of a basketball player than Ginobili. Replace JJ with Ginobili on that Hawks team, and they don't even sniff the playoffs.

I never said JJ was a postseason choker.
Both are very good players.
I just pick Manu. I think he is capable of taking over in a game 7 of the Finals.
JJ? Probably could, but I´m not so sure.

[sonic21]

Manu is better

[Phillip]

I never said JJ was a postseason choker.
Both are very good players.
I just pick Manu. I think he is capable of taking over in a game 7 of the Finals.
JJ? Probably could, but I´m not so sure.

My point is, JJ hasn't done anything to prove he isnt capable of performing in the playoffs.

And it's easy to say Manu can do that when he was playing under Timmy doing that. JJ is out there busting everyones ass as the #1 guy, unlike Manu.

JJ > Manu.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Has JJ been a postseason choker?


Glad someone else doesn't get this. JJ and Manu both have very comparable post season numbers, the difference is one of them played in his first post season at the age of 25 and has always had a HOF big man who opens up the perimeter for his teammates.

Meanwhile, JJ's first post season was at age 21 with one of the NBA's biggest ball hogs notorious for making his teammates worse playing point. It'd be interesting to see JJ's numbers if he got to play off Tim Duncan.

[redzero]

Joe Johnson's more talented, and Manu is more accomplished.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu is more accomplished.


Why? Cause he's done more as the 2nd or 3rd wheel than Joe Johnson has done as the best player?

[redzero]

Why? Cause he's done more as the 2nd or 3rd wheel than Joe Johnson has done as the best player?

Pretty much. Put Johnson in Manu's position, and the results would probably be the same.

[Muser]

I voted JJ purely because he is the better player right now, if you're talking prime i'd take Manu any day but as of right now its' JJ.

[DAF86]

I don't get why people say that JJ is more talented than Gino, I've watched a lot of Joe's games and I have never seen him doing anything remotely eye-poping so I went to see some of his youtube highlights and I remain with the same thought: nothing special.

Compare:


FNX4_ATBsW0 g-Zt4Q90spU

IMO Manu is not only the better player but the more talented and more fun to watch also.

[lefty]

LOL at this thread

How many times has Manu torched JJ ?

A LOT

[Phillip]

of course spurfans would choose manu. just making the choices they are supposed to choose. no surprises here :rolleyes

[DAF86]

of course spurfans would choose manu. just making the choices they are supposed to choose. no surprises here :rolleyes

why don't you give your reasons of why you think Joe Johnson is better than Manu instead of playing the "homer" card?

[23LeBronJames23]

J.J.


Is 3-8 record in postseason a choker? is it?

[DAF86]

Manu's PER numbers each season-

2002-03 - 14.48
2003-04 - 18.54
2004-05 - 22.35
2005-06 - 22.43
2006-07 - 24.18
2007-08 - 24.07
2008-09 - 22.93

Joe's PER numbers each season-

2002-03 - 12.10
2003-04 - 13.88
2004-05 - 15.19
2005-06 - 17.95
2006-07 - 19.56
2007-08 - 17.67
2008-09 - 18.26


Manu has always been the better player.

[lefty]

of course spurfans would choose manu. just making the choices they are supposed to choose. no surprises here :rolleyes

Ginobli drops 40 as Spurs hold off Hawks

Associated Press



ATLANTA (AP) - Manu Ginobili is thriving as the San Antonio Spurs' sixth man.
Ginobili scored a season-high 40 points, including 24 straight in the first half, and Tim Duncan had 30 points to help the Spurs beat the Atlanta Hawks 103-96 on Wednesday night.
''I've had some good stretches in my career,'' Ginobili said. ''Today was kind of impressive.
''In those three or four minutes, or however many they were, maybe, yeah, it was some of the best.''
The Spurs, who pulled to within eight games of Dallas in the Southwest Division, have won four straight after losing four of five.
Entering the game late in the first quarter, Ginobili missed two of his first four shots before hitting six in a row from the field and all seven attempts on free throws. The Spurs led 39-23 at the end of his flurry, and Ginobili had 27 points on 9-of-13 shooting before halftime.
''He was pretty special tonight,'' Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. ''He's just a heck of a hard cover for any defence because he does everything a little bit different than most players.
''I don't even know what he's going to do half of the time. Tonight he was really on, and he got us over the hump.''
Joe Johnson scored 30 points for the Hawks, who have lost two straight.
Zaza Pachulia scored 15 of his 23 points in the third quarter. He went 6-for-7 from the field, twice helping Atlanta tie the game in the final minute of the period.
''Ginobili was huge for their team, and I don't care how you cut it, when you have a low post player like Duncan, it just makes it tough on any team,'' Hawks coach Mike Woodson said. ''We tried to double-team him at times, but sometimes we didn't get the double there quick enough and he was still making plays.''
San Antonio never trailed after Tony Parker's layup made it 4-3. Parker missed eight straight shots before his 20-footer gave the Spurs a 91-82 lead with 3:51 remaining.
A flagrant foul by Johnson led to a five-point possession for the Spurs, as Brent Barry hit three foul shots and Duncan had two. Woodson was hit with a technical foul during the possession, which came with 8:07 left and made it 92-73.
Atlanta missed 14-of-35 free throws and went just 1-for-6 beyond the arc.
''I guess you could say it cost us the game,'' Hawks guard Speedy Claxton said. ''Next game, we have to try to stay focused at the line.''
Ginobili never scored more than 29 points last season before finishing with 32 points in a victory over Sacramento in the first round of the playoffs.
In the last nine games as San Antonio's sixth man, Ginobili averaged 17.4 points in 25 minutes to become the NBA's second-most productive reserve. Only Chicago's Ben Gordon, with 22.5 points in 31.1 minutes, had a better average.
''After I hit those first four field goals, of course I started feeling well, and Pop starting calling every single play for me,'' Ginobili said. ''All of them worked. I was feeling good.
''Even the mid-range jumpers were falling in.''
Woodson used Johnson and Josh Childress to defend Ginobili in the second half.
''They starter playing better D,'' Ginobili said. ''They are so long and athletic, they are always in the passing lanes. They are a tough team when the get in a rhythm, so they started running, making some shots. We had a really ugly stretch there.''
Atlanta, which won three of four before the all-star break, closed within five on Childress' follow dunk with 2:47 remaining. Josh Smith had 11 rebounds for the Hawks.
Notes: The Spurs improved to 22-4 this season when scoring 100 points . . . At 20-10, San Antonio is attempting to become the third team in history to have 10 consecutive winning seasons on the road. The Lakers did it from 1979-90 and the Celtics from 1959-68 . . . Atlanta's Tyronn Lue missed his sixth straight game with a sore hamstring.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

J.J.


Is 3-8 record in postseason a choker? is it?


You act like basketball is an individual sport. I always thought winning and losing was a team thing. Silly me.

[Leetonidas]

This question took some thinking, as I was going over everyone's responses while I was mulling over my choice. At first I wanted to pick Johnson but after thinking about it I'm gonna have to go with Ginobili.

Everyone is talking about how JJ has more talent but really, what has he done that's so amazing? I don't see him dismantling teams in the playoffs like Ginobili used to do. And look at their PER numbers, Ginobili is way ahead of Johnson in that department.

I think everyone here is forgetting how sick Ginobili really is. He's not just some unskilled dude hitting threes off of Duncan being triple teamed. That's Finley. Ginobili is a beast and can do everything Johnson can and probably do it better and with more intensity. Plus Ginobili does so many other things besides score. What else does Johnson do?

Ginobili can rebound like a madman, can dish off some beautiful assists, make timely blocks, multiple steals, etc.

Ginobili > Johnson

[lefty]

24 straight points on JJ

Eart shit, Manu haters

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yeah, but "individually" Manu makes a team a shitload better compared to Joe Johnson.


If you replace Joe Johnson with Manu, do the Hawks make the playoffs and advance one round last year?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't see him dismantling teams in the playoffs like Ginobili used to do.


I'm sure having Tim Duncan on his team had nothing to do with why he was able to dismantle so many teams.

[Culburn369]

DUNCAN, next time you concoct a Poll, make sure to delineate whether the subjects are at prime, or, at present day.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

playoff stats:

JJ: 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 42.3% shooting
Manu: 16.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 44.3% shooting


I don't understand how Manu is so much better in the playoffs, especially since JJ's playoff stats would be better if not for the 6 playoff games he played as a 21 YO with Stephon Marbury hogging the ball.

[lefty]

playoff stats:

JJ: 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 42.3% shooting
Manu: 16.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 44.3% shooting


I don't understand how Manu is so much better in the playoffs, especially since JJ's playoff stats would be better if not for the 6 playoff games he played as a 21 YO with Stephon Marbury hogging the ball.
Manu is better in the playoffs because he makes big plays

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DUNCAN, next time you concoct a Poll, make sure to delineate whether the subjects are at prime, or, at present day.


I meant overall, meaning everything is factored in. Who was better in their prime should be a factor, as well as how long each prime lasted. If Manu's best season was better than JJ's best season, that doesn't mean Manu > JJ.

[DAF86]

I'm sure having Tim Duncan on his team had nothing to do with why he was able to dismantle so many teams.

that's a stupid fucking argument. He has done it with Duncan, without Duncan. On the NBA with TD, on the NBA without TD, on FIBA, etc. If you're good, you're good. Having a great teammates helps but it doesn't make you do things you can't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu is better in the playoffs because he makes big plays


Surely Tim Duncan drawing the defensive attention he draws has nothing to do with this.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He has done it with Duncan, without Duncan.


This is an argument about who is the better NBA player. I don't care about Manu's minor league achievements without Duncan.

[23LeBronJames23]

playoff stats:

JJ: 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 42.3% shooting
Manu: 16.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 44.3% shooting


I don't understand how Manu is so much better in the playoffs, especially since JJ's playoff stats would be better if not for the 6 playoff games he played as a 21 YO with Stephon Marbury hogging the ball.

^^that shows^^ manu>jj

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Having a great teammates helps but it doesn't make you do things you can't.


It doesn't? So you're saying Pau Gasol would have been able to win a championship without Kobe?

[lefty]

Surely Tim Duncan drawing the defensive attention he draws has nothing to do with this.
Manu has also made big plays on the defensive ends

[weebo]

If you replace Joe Johnson with Manu, do the Hawks make the playoffs and advance one round last year?

Manu was injured last season.

[DAF86]

playoff stats:

JJ: 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 42.3% shooting
Manu: 16.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 44.3% shooting


I don't understand how Manu is so much better in the playoffs, especially since JJ's playoff stats would be better if not for the 6 playoff games he played as a 21 YO with Stephon Marbury hogging the ball.

I bet all those numbers are with Manu playing a lot less minutes. Besides if you're going to play the "21 YO Stephon Marbury" card then you also need to say that Manu besides playing less minutes per game and never having the chance to be the man (that means more shots and therefore better offensive stats) he played his first playoffs as a rookie where he averaged I think 7 pts per game (thing that hurt his PO stats) and he was injured the last playoffs he played.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu has also made big plays on the defensive ends


And playing on a great defensive team has nothing to do with this? He'd be able to make the same defensive plays without Bowen and Duncan?

[sonic21]

playoff stats:

JJ: 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 42.3% shooting
Manu: 16.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 44.3% shooting


I don't understand how Manu is so much better in the playoffs, especially since JJ's playoff stats would be better if not for the 6 playoff games he played as a 21 YO with Stephon Marbury hogging the ball.

he was so great in the 2005 playoffs, some spurs fans have a selective memory. For them, Manu in the PO= 2005 Manu.

[DAF86]

This is an argument about who is the better NBA player. I don't care about Manu's minor league achievements without Duncan.

Why don't you read the whole quote?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I bet all those numbers are with Manu playing a lot less minutes.


They're also with Manu being able to play off the best PF of all time. Something you think doesn't matter because he didn't need Duncan to beat minor leaguers.

[Culburn369]

DUNCAN, you're so consumed by statistics. They mean squat.

Manu is a winner.

Johnson is a loser.

It's not personal. It is what it is.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why don't you read the whole quote?

Fine, I just did.
What has he accomplished in the NBA w/o Duncan?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu is a winner.

Johnson is a loser.


I'm sure one having Tim Duncan on his team has nothing to do with this.

[benefactor]

Looks like I might have started WWIII...lol.

It's certainly close. I would rather have JJ for a whole season but I would rather have Manu for the playoffs. If I am just picking the straight up better player, I will take Manu.

[weebo]

he was so great in the 2005 playoffs, some spurs fans have a selective memory. For them, Manu in the PO= 2005 Manu.

Wow, and the reason we didn't get past the first round last year wasn't because Manu was out. But yes you're right Manu only had one good PO in '05. Pop would agree with you on Manu's value to the team come PO time.

[Culburn369]

I'm sure one having Tim Duncan on his team has nothing to do with this.

I'm not viewing Manu next to Duncan.

My opinion is based on viewing Manu & Johnson each isolated.

Manu is special. Johnson is garden variety.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wow, and the reason we didn't get past the first round last year wasn't because Manu was out. But yes you're right Manu only had one good PO in '05. Pop would agree with you on Manu's value to the team come PO time.


I'm pretty sure sonic21 said Manu was better, idk why you're arguing with him.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm not viewing Manu next to Duncan.


Calling Manu a winner is viewing him next to Duncan. Without Duncan, or "isolated" as you put it, Manu is just as unaccomplished as Joe Johnson.

[DAF86]

It doesn't? So you're saying Pau Gasol would have been able to win a championship without Kobe?

We were talking about in-game plays.

[sonic21]

Wow, and the reason we didn't get past the first round last year wasn't because Manu was out. But yes you're right Manu only had one good PO in '05. Pop would agree with you on Manu's value to the team come PO time.

of course we can't win anything without Manu, that was not my point.
And where did i say he was only good in 2005?

[BR'sBoyToy]

any of y'all seen my man??

[dirk4mvp]

Argentina should be nuked.

What's funny is, some spur fans thought Manu was a top 10 player cuz of 1 playoff run where he got hot, and even then his numbers weren't all that great.

[lefty]

Damn, Mav fans are really dumb

[DAF86]

They're also with Manu being able to play off the best PF of all time. Something you think doesn't matter because he didn't need Duncan to beat minor leaguers.

Put Johnson in the Spurs with Tim Duncan and put Manu on the Suns with Steve Nash and D'antoni as his coach and I bet Manu's numbers would improve and Joe's would dicreasse not to mention that Phoenix may have also beaten San Antonio.

[Shastafarian]

Calling Manu a winner is viewing him next to Duncan. Without Duncan, or "isolated" as you put it, Manu is just as unaccomplished as Joe Johnson.

I didn't realize Duncan was playing on the Argentine National team when they won the Gold Medal in the 2004 Olympics. Ginobili was the best player on a team that won a freakin gold medal.

[DAF86]

Calling Manu a winner is viewing him next to Duncan. Without Duncan, or "isolated" as you put it, Manu is just as unaccomplished as Joe Johnson.

To be fair he never had the chance to win in the NBA without Duncan, so you can't blame him for that.

[Culburn369]

Calling Manu a winner is viewing him next to Duncan. Without Duncan, or "isolated" as you put it, Manu is just as unaccomplished as Joe Johnson.

But, you can't [see] that, DUNCAN. If you're going to do "fantasy" put it into the poll first.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Put Johnson in the Spurs with Tim Duncan and put Manu on the Suns with Steve Nash and D'antoni as his coach and I bet Manu's numbers would improve and Joe's would dicreasse not to mention that Phoenix may have also beaten San Antonio.


So you're claim is that if Manu went from being the 2.5 option (in 2005 Parker and Ginobili shared the sidekick role) to being the 4th option and Joe Johnson went from being the 4th option to being the 2.5 option, JJ's numbers would go down and Manu's numbers would go up?

[DAF86]

Fine, I just did.
What has he accomplished in the NBA w/o Duncan?


We were talking about in-game plays.

Manu's best games usually come when either Duncan or Tony are out with injuries.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

To be fair he never had the chance to win in the NBA without Duncan, so you can't blame him for that.


And Joe Johnson never got the chance to win in the NBA with Duncan, you can't blame him for that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu's best games usually come when either Duncan or Tony are out with injuries.

How do the Spurs do in those games when Duncan is injured and he's healthy?

[DAF86]

I'm sure one having Tim Duncan on his team has nothing to do with this.

Why did you even started this thread if every good pro-Manu reason you're going to refute it with "he plays next to Tim Duncan"?

People I want you to know that Ben Gordon is better than Manu 'cause he's never played next to Tim Duncan.

[BR'sBoyToy]

How do the Spurs do in those games when Duncan is injured and he's healthy?


This man sounds delicious!! Maybe my man won't mind sharing!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why did you even started this thread if every good pro-Manu reason you're going to refute it with "he plays next to Tim Duncan"?


Because the "Manu is a bigger winner than Joe Johnson" wouldn't be made if not for Duncan.

[Shastafarian]

Because the "Manu is a bigger winner than Joe Johnson" wouldn't be made if not for Duncan.

How many Gold Medals does Joe Johnson have?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

People I want you to know that Ben Gordon is better than Manu 'cause he's never played next to Tim Duncan.


Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said JJ's better because he doesn't play next to Duncan, I said the championships Manu won with Duncan as the first option are irrelevant to this argument.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

How many Gold Medals does Joe Johnson have?


:lmao

[sonic21]

How many Gold Medals does Joe Johnson have?

How many does Duncan have?

[Shastafarian]

Because the "Manu is a bigger winner than Joe Johnson" wouldn't be made if not for Duncan.Yes...


:lmaoI fail to see what's funny


How many does Duncan have?Irrelevant because of the above quote

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Put Johnson in the Spurs with Tim Duncan and put Manu on the Suns with Steve Nash and D'antoni as his coach and I bet Manu's numbers would improve and Joe's would dicreasse not to mention that Phoenix may have also beaten San Antonio.


Phoenix may have also beat SA if JJ was healthy for that entire series........but chances are neither one is true since offense wasn't the Suns problem in that series, Manu instead of JJ doesn't change the fact Horry and Brent Barry are left open during key possessions and especially don't change the fact Duncan still has a huge series.

[DAF86]

How do the Spurs do in those games when Duncan is injured and he's healthy?

They win more than they lose, in fact I think there's a stat out there that shows that the Spurs have a worst winning % when Manu is out than when either Tim or Tony are injured.

[Culburn369]

And DUNCAN, it's not kosher for you to kibitz in your own Poll.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I fail to see what's funny


What's funny is using non-NBA basketball during an NBA argument.

Is Manu a better Euroleague player than JJ? Yes, I admit it. are all the Manu fans happy? Can we now stick to the NBA since we're in the NBA forum?

[DAF86]

So you're claim is that if Manu went from being the 2.5 option (in 2005 Parker and Ginobili shared the sidekick role) to being the 4th option and Joe Johnson went from being the 4th option to being the 2.5 option, JJ's numbers would go down and Manu's numbers would go up?

Manu wouldn't have been the fourth option on that Suns team. Go ask D'antoni who he thinks is better: Johnson or Manu?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They win more than they lose, in fact I think there's a stat out there that shows that the Spurs have a worst winning % when Manu is out than when either Tim or Tony are injured.

First off, Tony is irrelevant. I agree Manu > Parker.

And there's no point in arguing with anyone that seriously thinks Manu could win an NBA championship as a main player.

[Shastafarian]

What's funny is using non-NBA basketball during an NBA argument.

Is Manu a better Euroleague player than JJ? Yes, I admit it. are all the Manu fans happy? Can we now stick to the NBA since we're in the NBA forum?

Oh my bad. See I read the title of the thread "Better Player" and thought you meant who had more talent and was a better basketball player. My mistake. Continue.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu wouldn't have been the fourth option on that Suns team. Go ask D'antoni who he thinks is better: Johnson or Manu?


Yes, he would have still been the fourth option behind Nash, Amare and Marion in D'antoni's offense. D'antoni would have taken the ball out of his hands and killed his game. He would have done the same to JJ if JJ stayed with the team.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Oh my bad. See I read the title of the thread "Better Player" and thought you meant who had more talent and was a better basketball player. My mistake. Continue.

Since we're in the "NBA forum", I figured that NBA was implied when i said better player. If I posted this in a Euroleague forum then it'd be a different story.

[Phillip]

spurfans are such homers

and homos

[Shastafarian]

Since we're in the "NBA forum", I figured that NBA was implied when i said better player. If I posted this in a Euroleague forum then it'd be a different story.

:lol

[Shastafarian]

Sorry for laughing, but believing a player's international credentials don't matter because some of the rules of international play are different is pretty silly. Especially when the player doesn't play the position that is most affected by those different rules.

[DAF86]

First off, Tony is irrelevant. I agree Manu > Parker.

And there's no point in arguing with anyone that seriously thinks Manu could win an NBA championship as a main player.

Who said that?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sorry for laughing, but believing a player's international credentials don't matter because some of the rules of international play are different is pretty silly. Especially when the player doesn't play the position that is most affected by those different rules.


I believe they don't matter cause international competition isn't half as good as NBA competition.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Who said that?


It seemed like you were hinting at it and have hinted at it several times.

[Shastafarian]

I believe they don't matter cause international competition isn't half as good as NBA competition.

Is that why Joe Johnson has only been on one US team and that team got a bronze?

[sonic21]

Who said that?

well you kinda said that when you said Manu > Dirk.

[DAF86]

Yes, he would have still been the fourth option behind Nash, Amare and Marion in D'antoni's offense. D'antoni would have taken the ball out of his hands and killed his game. He would have done the same to JJ if JJ stayed with the team.

D'antoni thinks that Manu is a freaking superstar ('cause unlike you, he has also saw him play outside the NBA and knows that even if it's true that there's a big difference betwen NBA and FIBA the difference isn't as big as most people think) I really doubt he would have slowed Manu's role too much. One thing is for sure, Ginobili would have played a lot more minutes with D'antoni than what he ended up playing with Pop.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is that why Joe Johnson has only been on one US team and that team got a bronze?


Are you seriously blaming Joe Johnson for that cluster fuck of a team?

[Leetonidas]

DoK's entire argument is based on a hypothetical situation.

Lame. :td

[jazzypimp]

Pretty much. Put Johnson in Manu's position, and the results would probably be the same.


Joe is not nearly as good of a flopper as flopnobli tho!

[da_suns_fan]

In 2005, Manu Ginobili.

In 2009, Joe Johnson by a long shot.

[DAF86]

Are you seriously blaming Joe Johnson for that cluster fuck of a team?

But dude, he played with Duncan on that team. How could he not win?

[Shastafarian]

Are you seriously blaming Joe Johnson for that cluster fuck of a team?

No but I fail to see how the competition could be so utterly shitty that it would nullify counting accomplishments and yet a team Joe Johnson was on could only get a bronze medal. And that wasn't even the Olympics.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

('cause unlike you, he has also saw him play outside the NBA and knows that even if it's true that there's a big difference betwen NBA and FIBA the difference isn't as big as most people think)

I'm sure that's why he chooses to coach in the NBA.

But yeah, D'antoni sure as hell knows a good European player when he sees one. Danilo Gallinari was the best draft pick ever.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But dude, he played with Duncan on that team. How could he not win?


Show me where I said that all teams with Tim Duncan win.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No but I fail to see how the competition could be so utterly shitty that it would nullify counting accomplishments and yet a team Joe Johnson was on could only get a bronze medal. And that wasn't even the Olympics.


Biased referees that hate America could have something to do with it.

[Texas_Ranger]

Manu. He won it all in the NBA, Europe and in the Olympics. In Europe and in the Olympics he had no Duncan and he was the best player on the team. What did Joe Johnson won...Nothing. Sure, Manu played with TD, but didn't JJ play with the best player in the NBA then - Steve Nash. Hmmm.. How didn't he won the championship?

[sonic21]

But dude, he played with Duncan on that team. How could he not win?

he played in 2006, not in 2004.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Sure, Manu played with TD, but didn't JJ play with the best player in the NBA then - Steve Nash. Hmmm..


He had one season with Nash, and was injured for the Spurs series.

But that doesn't even matter, :lmao saying Nash > Duncan

[DAF86]

No but I fail to see how the competition could be so utterly shitty that it would nullify counting accomplishments and yet a team Joe Johnson was on could only get a bronze medal. And that wasn't even the Olympics.

The only NBA US team I remember that won bronze was the 2004 olympic one, the Indianapolis one I think didn't get even that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK's entire argument is based on a hypothetical situation.


That's better than an argument based off non-NBA competition.

[DAF86]

he played in 2006, not in 2004.

You're right I was forgetting that one.

[DAF86]

That's better than an argument based off non-NBA competition.

The PER numbers I showed are from the NBA.

[Texas_Ranger]

He had one season with Nash, and was injured for the Spurs series.

But that doesn't even matter, :lmao saying Nash > Duncan

Who cares if he was injured...Manu was also injured this year.

Hey, Steve Nah was the best player in the whole NBA. The guy won the MVP award. So yes, that year he was better than TD.
So would JJ be a champ if he wasn't injured. Or would Manu kick their ass as he did without JJ?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm still waiting to know where I said all teams with Tim Duncan win it all.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Hey, Steve Nah was the best player in the whole NBA. The guy won the MVP award. So yes, that year he was better than TD.


So in 2001 Allen Iverson was better than Shaq?

[da_suns_fan]

Manu. He won it all in the NBA, Europe and in the Olympics. In Europe and in the Olympics he had no Duncan and he was the best player on the team. What did Joe Johnson won...Nothing. Sure, Manu played with TD, but didn't JJ play with the best player in the NBA then - Steve Nash. Hmmm.. How didn't he won the championship?

1) The poll isnt discussing who has the most accomplishments. Its asking who the better player is and I assume it means "Who is the best RIGHT NOW". Ginobili isnt the player he once was and JJ is entering his prime. There's no GM in the NBA who wouldnt rather have JJ over Ginobili

2) Joe Johnsn and Ginobili have both played second fiddle while only Johnson has played as "The man". So comparing NBA team achievements is comparing apples to oranges.

3) Learn the difference between "win" and "won". I normally dont care about grammar but twice in one paragraph is bizzare. Are you foreign?

[Findog]

2) Joe Johnsn and Ginobili have played second fiddle while only Johnson has played as "The man". So comparing NBA team achievements is comparing apples to oranges.

Spurs fans have a VERY HARD time grasping this concept:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132821

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DSF, the poll is meant to factor in everything. It's pretty impossible to say Manu is better than JJ right now.

[DAF86]

In 2005, Manu Ginobili.

In 2009, Joe Johnson by a long shot.

You can't compare, Manu was injured more than half of the season, he still was more effective than Johnson though.


Manu's PER numbers each season-
2002-03 - 14.48
2003-04 - 18.54
2004-05 - 22.35
2005-06 - 22.43
2006-07 - 24.18
2007-08 - 24.07
2008-09 - 22.93

Joe's PER numbers each season-

2002-03 - 12.10
2003-04 - 13.88
2004-05 - 15.19
2005-06 - 17.95
2006-07 - 19.56
2007-08 - 17.67
2008-09 - 18.26


Manu has always been the better player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Spurs fans have a VERY HARD time grasping this concept:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132821


No, it works both ways. When arguing about Manu Ginobili, Spurfan says he won 3 championships cause he's a winner.

When arguing about Kobe Bryant, Spurfan says three championships don't count because he rode Shaq's coattails and wasn't the best player on his team.

[Leetonidas]

That's better than an argument based off non-NBA competition.

You're just telling yourself that bro. Trust me, a Gold Medal is way more valuable than you're trying to make it seem. Especially since they shit on the USA.

[Findog]

You can't compare, Manu was injured more than half of the season, he still was more effective than Johnson though.

A player's fragility is part of the whole package.

[Texas_Ranger]

Before and Now I'd rather have Manu on my team.
Manu needs 30 minutes and he can score 20 points. JJ needs 40 minutes to score 20 points. And JJ also needs to shoot the ball at least 5 times more than Manu.
So I go with Manu, and don't ask me why anymore.

[The Franchise]

I chose Manu because of his past accomplishments, but if we were talking about having one or the other now I would take Joe.

[lefty]

Do you remember that night when Manu dropped 48 on JJ ?

Or that other night were Manu had 24 straight points (40 in total) on JJ ? :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You're just telling yourself that bro. Trust me, a Gold Medal is way more valuable than you're trying to make it seem. Especially since they shit on the USA.


Again, I assumed that since we're in an "NBA" forum, we're talking about the NBA.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

A player's fragility is part of the whole package.


When talking about Andrew Bynum, yes.

When talking about Manu Ginobili, no.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Do you remember that night when Manu dropped 48 on JJ ?

Or that other night were Manu had 24 straight points (40 in total) on JJ ? :lmao


Wow, two whole games.

[dirk4mvp]

Wow, two whole games.

He probably followed those games with a few 8 points on 15 shots performances.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Before and Now I'd rather have Manu on my team.
Manu needs 30 minutes and he can score 20 points. JJ needs 40 minutes to score 20 points. And JJ also needs to shoot the ball at least 5 times more than Manu.
So I go with Manu, and don't ask me why anymore.


Yup, Manu would be just as efficient as the main focus of his team as he is as the side kick who gets to play off a better player.

[DAF86]

A player's fragility is part of the whole package.

Manu at his 32 years has the same amount of injuries that Johnson at his 20 something, people are overrating Manu's "fragilness" 'cause he has been injured lately.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He probably followed those games with a few 8 points on 15 shots performances.


:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Manu at his 32 years has the same amount of injuries that Johnson at his 20 something, people are overrating Manu's "fragilness" 'cause he has been injured lately.


How did you calculate that?

[dirk4mvp]

Manu at his 32 years has the same amount of injuries that Johnson at his 20 something, people are overrating Manu's "fragilness" 'cause he has been injured lately.

He's frail, deal with it.

[lefty]

Wow, two whole games.
THat was just a sample

[DAF86]

He probably followed those games with a few 8 points on 15 shots performances.

Knowing that Manu averages only 10 FG attemps per game in his entire career I really doubt he would regularly attemp 15 FG when he's having a bad shooting night.

[dirk4mvp]

Knowing that Manu averages only 10 FG attemps per game in his entire career I really doubt he would regularly attemp 15 FG when he's having a bad shooting night.


You know this how? Do you have every box score of Manu's every game bookmarked?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Knowing that Manu averages only 10 FG attemps per game in his entire career I really doubt he would regularly attemp 15 FG when he's having a bad shooting night.


You musta missed that Lakers Spurs series in 2008.

[DAF86]

Wow, two whole games.

That's twice as much as JJ droping 40 on Manu.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's twice as much as JJ droping 40 on Manu.


So I guess since Amare has dropped 40+ on Duncan more than Duncan has dropped 40+ on Amare, Amare > Duncan.

[Gino]

So I guess since Amare has dropped 40+ on Duncan more than Duncan has dropped 40+ on Amare, Amare > Duncan.

:lmao

Good point! I think you just killed that argument.

[TMTTRIO]

Of course Duncan helps players like Manu be better but it's not like Manu couldn't do what he does on another team. Heck look at Hedo. He didn't do much with the Spurs and playing next to Tim, but once he went to Orlando he had a career year.

[DAF86]

You musta missed that Lakers Spurs series in 2008.

I can't find the box-scores of that series. Can somebody post them?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao

Good point! I think you just killed that argument.


Now they'll probably go back to the argument that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I can't find the box-scores of that series. Can somebody post them?

game 1 he was 3-13

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He didn't do much with the Spurs and playing next to Tim, but once he went to Orlando he had a career year.


That had a lot to do with being the primary ball handler on Orlando when Manu and Parker both got more touches on SA.

[DAF86]

So I guess since Amare has dropped 40+ on Duncan more than Duncan has dropped 40+ on Amare, Amare > Duncan.


:lmao

Good point! I think you just killed that argument.

No, 'cause I never said that Manu > Joe because he dropped 40+ twice on him. (I give other reasons for that)

I was just answering the "whole two games" response.

[duncan228]

I can't find the box-scores of that series. Can somebody post them?

Game 1

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280521013

Game 2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280523013

Game 3

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280525024

Game 4

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280527024

Game 5

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280529013

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DAF86, in the future, if you need a box score or any statistic, go to basketball-reference.com

[DJB]

For the regular season - JJ
For the playoffs, give me Manu

:toast

[DPG21920]

No team with Joe Johnson as the number 1 option would win a title either.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No team with Joe Johnson as the number 1 option would win a title either.


Never said otherwise. I do have a hard time believing a team led by Manu could win 47 games and advance to the 2nd round.

[angelbelow]

Talent wise and potential wise, JJ easily. But I think the smarter player is Manu. Whether it is his work ethic, his Bball IQ, his competitiveness, or his luck, Ginobili has been the more successful player. So this is a tough poll. I picked ginobili obviously because I'm biased and I think it could be argued either way.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Talent wise and potential wise, JJ easily. But I think the smarter player is Manu. Whether it is his work ethic, his Bball IQ, his competitiveness, or his luck, Ginobili has been the more successful player. So this is a tough poll. I picked ginobili obviously because I'm biased and I think it could be argued either way.


My personal view is BBall IQ is part of your natural talent. IMO talent isn't only physical gifts. No matter how hard he tried, JJ would never be as smart as Manu.

[DAF86]

Game 1

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280521013

Game 2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280523013

Game 3

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280525024

Game 4

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280527024

Game 5

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=280529013


DAF86, in the future, if you need a box score or any statistic, go to basketball-reference.com

Thanks

[z0sa]

Never said otherwise. I do have a hard time believing a team led by Manu could win 47 games and advance to the 2nd round.

Why?

[DAF86]

Thanks

Oh and by the way, the games were just as I thought they were. The only close thing to a "8 pts 15 shots" performance was that 3 for 13 in game 1. The only time he took 15 shots he made 30 points.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why?


Cause he' get injured if he tried to carry a team through 82 games like JJ did last year.

[Leetonidas]

Again, I assumed that since we're in an "NBA" forum, we're talking about the NBA.

Um...


NBA Forum

Discuss the latest NBA news, rumors and action. Also the place to go for the WNBA, Euroleague, D-League and everything else basketball.

[dirk4mvp]

Oh and by the way, the games were just as I thought they were. The only close thing to a "8 pts 15 shots" performance was that 3 for 13 in game 1. The only time he took 15 shots he made 30 points.

He was terrible most of that series.

[TheManFromAcme]

Talent wise and potential wise, JJ easily. But I think the smarter player is Manu. Whether it is his work ethic, his Bball IQ, his competitiveness, or his luck, Ginobili has been the more successful player. So this is a tough poll. I picked ginobili obviously because I'm biased and I think it could be argued either way.

Not to mention that unexplainable intangible that Gino brings. Tough poll but my personal $$ would be with Manu. :toast

[DAF86]

He was terrible most of that series.

Yep, I'm not saying other wise, but I think we all also know that there was a pretty good reason for that. When Sasha Vujacic of all people kept him in check you knew something was wrong.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Um...


OK, so I needed to directly say my question was who is the better NBA player? I'm saying it now. Are you happy?

[dirk4mvp]

Yep, I'm not saying other wise, but I think we all also know that there was a pretty good reason for that. When Sasha Vujacic of all people kept him in check you knew something was wrong.


You mean nba players have played injured before? :wow

[rayray2k8]

Johnson right now, but as to who has achieved more in his career? Manu Ginobili

[DAF86]

You mean nba players have played injured before? :wow

One thing is to play injured and other thing is to play like Manu did. Did you see the play (in the Argentina vs US semis of the olympics) where he finally broke entirely that ankle? ... Dude wasn't even touched, he was just running and suddenly he fell to the ground and started screaming. He wasn't even at 40% on that series.

[Amaso]

Who's the better player right now? Joe Johnson
Who's the better basketball player? Manu

[anonoftheinternets]

Who's the better player right now? Joe Johnson
Who's the better basketball player? Manu

+ 1 .. personally i think manu is past his prime and will be relegated to playing a more jumpshooting role. But he may have 2 years at at his best left in him. Will have to wait and see this season play out.

[jazzypimp]

One thing is to play injured and other thing is to play like Manu did. Did you see the play (in the Argentina vs US semis of the olympics) where he finally broke entirely that ankle? ... Dude wasn't even touched, he was just running and suddenly he fell to the ground and started screaming. He wasn't even at 40% on that series.


I've seen manu fall down screaming many times when not even touched. I think that is just how he learned to play basketball!

[JamStone]

Amidst all this butt-hurtness, I think it's actually a good debate asking who is the better player. I think most of the tangibles like size, strength, athleticism go in favor of Joe Johnson. Most of the intangibles like will to win, intensity, desire, clutch play go in favor of Ginobili. Not that either is lopsided in favor of the other, but I would say that's where the scales would tip for each.

I think there's a strong argument that Joe Johnson has been the #1 option on his Hakws teams while Manu has been the second or third option for the Spurs, so it's hard to compare statistics, even PER. By the way, it's funny to see some Spurs fans use PER to argue Ginobili being better when it goes in favor of the Spurs and then completely bash a statistic like PER when it doesn't. Based on PER, Chris Paul is by far a better player than Tony Parker and has been better since he's entered the league. How many Spurs fans would discredit the PER stat then?

Moreover, claiming that no team would win a title with Joe Johnson as the #1 option is pretty irrelevant since no team with Ginobili as the #1 option would either.

Now, I love Manu. He's one of my favorite players in the league, might be my #1 favorite player now because he was second only to Iverson the last few years. But, even if you do believe Manu is the better player, it's close. It's not some crazy lopsided disparity where Manu is miles ahead of Joe Johnson. It's close.

Plus, if you take into consideration right now, currently, at their respective ages, with Ginobili's diminished abilities due to injury after injury, there's plenty of arguments in favor of Joe Johnson.

Me, I'm still partial to Ginobili. I think when he's healthy and right, he's just a notch below the likes of Kobe and Wade at the 2-guard spot in the league. That's when he's healthy and right. So, I'd probably go with Ginobili in a pretty close call.

[DPG21920]

Ya, I find it hard to believe that they are far apart with regards to tiers of player. JJ and Manu are much closer in talent than Kobe/Manu for example. It can be argued.

[kamikazi_player]

Nothing against Manu, but if we were to pick one of these two players today, i would pick Joe Johnson over Manu. Joe Johnson is younger and more athletic than Manu. Plus JJ is probably even or a little better at d than Manu.

[MambaJuice2408]

I would take Ginobilli at 70% over Joe Johnson at 100%

[Texas_Ranger]

Here are the stats when Joe's team faces the Spurs.

They played 27 games against each other, 9 of those games in the playoffs.

Ginobili: 14,9 pts, 4,5 reb, 3 ast, 1,7 stl, 0,3 blk in 28,3 min.

Johnson: 14,1 pts, 3,8 reb, 2,9 ast, 1 stl, 0,3 blk in 36,1 min.

Playoffs:

Ginobili: 12,3 pts, 4,9 reb, 4,2 ast, 1,8 stl, 0,4 blk in 32,1 min.

Johnson: 9,7 pts, 4,1 reb, 2 ast, 0,9 stl, 0,3 blk in 31,6 min.


Manu >> Joe

[dirk4mvp]

lol and what option was Joe Johnson in that series?

[Texas_Ranger]

lol and what option was Joe Johnson in that series?

Well in 03 when Manu was a rookie, Joe was the first option of the bench. He played at least 25-30 minutes a game in that 6 game series. He had a bigger role than Manu on the Spurs. Joe also took like 4 more shots than Manu.

In 05 Joe was a starter in the playoffs. But he only played the last 3 games of the Spurs - Suns series. He played 40 minutes a game. He was the 3rd option on offense, just like Manu.

[Red Hawk #21]

Lol this poll sux...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well in 03 when Manu was a rookie, Joe was the first option of the bench. He played at least 25-30 minutes a game in that 6 game series. He had a bigger role than Manu on the Spurs. Joe also took like 4 more shots than Manu.

In 05 Joe was a starter in the playoffs. But he only played the last 3 games of the Spurs - Suns series. He played 40 minutes a game. He was the 3rd option on offense, just like Manu.

In 2003 Manu was 25 years old and JJ was 21 years old. Don't pull the inexperience card there.

And in 2005 JJ played the entire series with one eye and a mask he wasn't used to using.

[Texas_Ranger]

In 2003 Manu was 25 years old and JJ was 21 years old. Don't pull the inexperience card there.

And in 2005 JJ played the entire series with one eye and a mask he wasn't used to using.


So what if he was 25 years old. Joe was already one year in the league. The inexperienced player outplayed the experienced one.

Joe played good 3 games against the Spurs in 05. Richard Hamilton aso had a mask that he wasn't used to, and he still won the championship. So who gives a fuck about the mask.

Manu is just better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So what if he was 25 years old. Joe was already one year in the league.

Joe played good 3 games against the Spurs in 05. Richard Hamilton aso had a mas that he wasn't used to, and he still won the championship. So who gives a fuck about the mask.


Except Rip had been used to the mask, he's worn one his entire career. Rip actually broke his nose 3 different times because he refused to wear the mask at first.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So what if he was 25 years old. Joe was already one year in the league. The inexperienced player outplayed the experienced one.


O yeah, the 21 year old was so much more experienced than the 25 YO :rolleyes

[Texas_Ranger]

Manu is better. He's got better stat's against Joe and he also's got more awards than him.
You don't have to agree with me, but 45 other guys who voted will agree.

[dirk4mvp]

You mean to say, Spur fans would vote for their player in a poll? :wow

[024]

I would obviously choose Johnson over ginobili simply because he's younger. I'd say their levels are pretty similar right now but if I needed to choose one for just next season, I would rather have ginobili because he's slightly better now. Since the spurs arent just playing for one championship, Johnson would greatly extend the spurs championship window so it's a no brainer.

[Texas_Ranger]

You mean to say, Spur fans would vote for their player in a poll? :wow

yes. :wow

This guys are really morons to put Manu in a poll on a Spurs forum, cause we all know he will win.
So why the fuck do you guys put a Spurs player in a poll on this forum.

oh and btw...Duncan >> Dirk

[dirk4mvp]

This guys are really morons to put Manu in a poll on a Spurs forum, cause we all know he will win.
So why the fuck do you guys put a Spurs player in a poll on this forum.




To see how big of a bunch of homers spur fans are.

lol 4-1

lol barea owning the spurs

lol bass owning the spurs

[Texas_Ranger]

To see how big of a bunch of homers spur fans are.

lol 4-1

lol barea owning the spurs

lol bass owning the spurs

lol 4-0

That enough.

[dirk4mvp]

That enough.

huh? Are you trying to communicate?

[Texas_Ranger]

huh? Are you trying to communicate?

:lol
Sorry. It's 2.15 am here. I'm tired.:sleep

[DAF86]

You mean to say, Spur fans would vote for their player in a poll? :wow

Make a Kobe vs Manu poll and look who wins. People voted for Manu 'cause they know he's the better player.

[timtonymanurich]

It occurs to me that with the 'eye for talent' that both RC and Pop have that the signing of Marcus and Ian Mahinmi is no desperation move. Marcus Haislip is more of a lighter, more athletic Hedo with his ability of shooting from any where on the floor, and the Ian Mahinmi addition, he just might be the NBA's best kept secret in that he is very fast for a big man, and very athletic like D Rob (David Robinson). One can only hope that Ian is taking summer league tutorials from the Admiral the way that Bynum is apparently under the tutelage of Kareem. Could we be witnessing the development of D Rob 2.0 in Mahinmi?
One can only hope.
We have SUCH a deadly line up as a starting 5 and impressive but also unproven bench in some players. I'm just stoked as I can maintain to see Timmy, Tony, Manu, RJ, and McDyess come on to the floor after a time out (hopefully called by the other team) for the final 3-4 minutes of important games building chemistry, and learning together how to close out games in preparation for closing out the last few games of the WCF and the '10 NBA Finals. Who is REALLY going to stop that line up? Lebron can only guard one guy, and Shag
(misspelled on purpose) can only guard so much of the paint, Kobe will be forced to guard either Manu or RJ and won't be able to provide much of any help defense, Pau's Defense is as (in)effective as Dirk's, and Byn(othing) is a no-show when it matters, and Ron Artest? Well when he has his temper tantrums, --and he will-- will fade away like he did with the Rockets when it mattered. I'm not saying that the Spurs will sweep the Fakers and the Cavs if and when we meet them in the playoffs, but not only will SA be at full strength this season, but every team will need to respect everyone on the floor when the Spurs show up for the last 3-4 minutes in every 4th quarter they play against us.

[weebo]

A player's fragility is part of the whole package.

Like dirk's basketball psyche.

[Texas_Ranger]

Make a Kobe vs Manu poll and look who wins. People voted for Manu 'cause they know he's the better player.

I don't know if Kobe would win. Manu will defeat Dirk in the Spurs forum poll.:hat

[DAF86]

I don't know if Kobe would win. Manu will defeat Dirk in the Spurs forum poll.:hat

Dirk isn't Kobe and that poll isn't a straight who's better question.

[dirk4mvp]

Make a Kobe vs Manu poll and look who wins. People voted for Manu 'cause they know he's the better player.

Right, because a small scope like the people who visit the nba forum of spurstalk votes for Manu makes this true.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk isn't Kobe and that poll isn't a straight who's better question.

Because people with common sense know Dirk is far superior to manu.

[ginobili's bald spot]

Make a Kobe vs Manu poll and look who wins. People voted for Manu 'cause they know he's the better player.

Wait hold on... You think manu is better than Kobe? Holy ..... Argentinian spurfans are dumber than I thought.

[Texas_Ranger]

Wait hold on... You think manu is better than Kobe? Holy ..... Argentinian spurfans are dumber than I thought.
Not Kobe. Joe Johnson!

[MateoNeygro]

I'd say Johnson has a better more consistent jumper. Manu is much better all around, better Defense better ability to get into the paint and more mentally tough.

[weebo]

Never said otherwise. I do have a hard time believing a team led by Manu could win 47 games and advance to the 2nd round.

No shit. Surround Kobe with a bunch of scrubs and even he can't win 47 games (05-07). Moron.:rolleyes

[MateoNeygro]

How many Gold Medals does Joe Johnson have?

nice

[MateoNeygro]

Lol all the Suns and Mavs fans say Johnson. What a bunch of non title winning hater homo's.

[DAF86]

Wait hold on... You think manu is better than Kobe? Holy ..... Argentinian spurfans are dumber than I thought.

Read my comment again and the quote I was responding to.

[Leetonidas]

Notice it's not just Spur Fans, there's also a few Laker, Sun, and Piston fans that said Ginobili.

[MateoNeygro]

1) The poll isnt discussing who has the most accomplishments. Its asking who the better player is and I assume it means "Who is the best RIGHT NOW". Ginobili isnt the player he once was and JJ is entering his prime. There's no GM in the NBA who wouldnt rather have JJ over Ginobili

2) Joe Johnsn and Ginobili have both played second fiddle while only Johnson has played as "The man". So comparing NBA team achievements is comparing apples to oranges.

3) Learn the difference between "win" and "won". I normally dont care about grammar but twice in one paragraph is bizzare. Are you foreign?

Stop saying Joe Johnson is THE MAN who gives a fuck? He plays for the Hawks they make it to the playoffs with a record that would hardly get them to the playoffs if he were in the West. Phoneix fans hate so hard.

[timtonymanurich]

lol 4-0

That enough.

Funny how you never mention TParks straight OWNING Dallas single-handedly during the reg. season when we were without Timmy AND Manu and TParks lit yous up for 40+. Dallas turned into a team full of Dork Nowitski's on D and watched the Tony Parker Show.
Yeah, no need to start acting like a lady.... you and the Mavs will be back on your knees next season in NO time.
ALSO notable, Popovich never once mentioned their revaping their roster because of their trying to get past the likes of Dallas. It's always been to beat the Lakers. True Dallas may have had a something to do with lighting a fire under our ownerships cracks to revamp the roster, but humorous, and flattering that Dallas thinks they're so much as a BLIP on our championship Roster.

I'm curious, does Mark Cuban have some sort of post-season party over at the Mavericks stadium for the seasons the Mavs just simply "GET PAST" the Spurs in the playoffs? Does he give out mock "Spurs series Champs" tee-shirts and lapel pins to the players and coaching staff along with little tin trophies for made-up accomplishments like "New BEST Flopper" for Barea, and "JUST HAPPY TO HAVE MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS" plaques to Dallas Hierarchy? ---> I ONLY ask because you Dallas fans act as if to have basically WON the Championship JUST by beating a Spurs team at 60% (lips smacking...smacking...) Oh, does that taste bad? Hard to swallow? Mavs in May---> :fishing

Spurs and Fans in Late June----->

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

:danceclub

[MateoNeygro]

He's frail, deal with it.

and dirk is a vadge...childish but just thought u should know.

[dirk4mvp]

lol quoting the wrong comment.

[dirk4mvp]

and dirk is a vadge...childish but just thought u should know.

good post.

[weebo]

Funny how you never mention TParks straight OWNING Dallas single-handedly during the reg. season when we were without Timmy AND Manu and TParks lit yous up for 40+. Dallas turned into a team full of Dork Nowitski's on D and watched the Tony Parker Show.
Yeah, no need to start acting like a lady.... you and the Mavs will be back on your knees next season in NO time.
ALSO notable, Popovich never once mentioned their revaping their roster because of their trying to get past the likes of Dallas. It's always been to beat the Lakers. True Dallas may have had a something to do with lighting a fire under our ownerships cracks to revamp the roster, but humorous, and flattering that Dallas thinks they're so much as a BLIP on our championship Roster.

I'm curious, does Mark Cuban have some sort of post-season party over at the Mavericks stadium for the seasons the Mavs just simply "GET PAST" the Spurs in the playoffs? Does he give out mock "Spurs series Champs" tee-shirts and lapel pins to the players and coaching staff along with little tin trophies for made-up accomplishments like "New BEST Flopper" for Barea, and "JUST HAPPY TO HAVE MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS" plaques to Dallas Hierarchy? ---> I ONLY ask because you Dallas fans act as if to have basically WON the Championship JUST by beating a Spurs team at 60% (lips smacking...smacking...) Oh, does that taste bad? Hard to swallow? Mavs in May---> :fishing

Spurs and Fans in Late June----->

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

:danceclub

You haven't been here long have you?

[MateoNeygro]

Oh and by the way, the games were just as I thought they were. The only close thing to a "8 pts 15 shots" performance was that 3 for 13 in game 1. The only time he took 15 shots he made 30 points.

Got em!

[MateoNeygro]

good post.

hahaha sorry. I just don't like when people call Manu frail Lol. My bad man.

[MateoNeygro]

I've seen manu fall down screaming many times when not even touched. I think that is just how he learned to play basketball!

Hhahaha Jazz fans don't matter don't u know that???

[MateoNeygro]

In 2003 Manu was 25 years old and JJ was 21 years old. Don't pull the inexperience card there.

And in 2005 JJ played the entire series with one eye and a mask he wasn't used to using.

Hey DOk if u start a poll isn't it purely an opinion thing? I mean people who say Manu u just shit on them. It seems really personal to u.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Not a bad poll. They're pretty close IMO. Considering it's on a Spurs board, I had no doubt that Manu would win. But I do think it's telling that of JJ's 28 votes, 11 of them are from non-Spurs fans. Whereas of Manu's 52 votes, only 4 come from outside the fanbase.

Manu is s bit better defensively, and shoots at a better percentage, but also gets a higher percentage of his points from the line. I think JJ is the better playmaker overall, for himself and his teamates.

I've got them pretty even, but eventually Manu's inability to complete a season healthy forced me to go with JJ. In 7 seasons, Manu has never been able to play a full 82 games. Whereas JJ has played a full compliment of games 5 of his 8 years in the L. And plays nearly 10 more minutes per.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Hey DOk if u start a poll isn't it purely an opinion thing? I mean people who say Manu u just shit on them. It seems really personal to u.


That's naturally how arguments work, when someone elses argument disagrees with yours, you try to dispute it.

[DAF86]

Not a bad poll. They're pretty close IMO. Considering it's on a Spurs board, I had no doubt that Manu would win. But I do think it's telling that of JJ's 28 votes, 11 of them are from non-Spurs fans. Whereas of Manu's 52 votes, only 4 come from outside the fanbase.

Manu is s bit better defensively, and shoots at a better percentage, but also gets a higher percentage of his points from the line. I think JJ is the better playmaker overall, for himself and his teamates.

I've got them pretty even, but eventually Manu's inability to complete a season healthy forced me to go with JJ. In 7 seasons, Manu has never been able to play a full 82 games. Whereas JJ has played a full compliment of games 5 of his 8 years in the L. And plays nearly 10 more minutes per.

That's 'cause Pop sits his players even when they aren't injured. The only serious injury Manu has had on his career was this last ankle one and he's 32 years old.

And about the fans vote: take a closer look, a lot more people than just 4 non-spurs fans voted for Manu.

[Pistons < Spurs]

And about the fans vote: take a closer look, a lot more people than just 4 non-spurs fans voted for Manu.


I realize I only counted the posters whose screen names are 'colored' to their teams ... I'm sure there's some I missed on both sides. But the overall point is still valid. A far great % of those who I'd label as less biased, voted for JJ.

[Pistons < Spurs]

That's 'cause Pop sits his players even when they aren't injured. The only serious injury Manu has had on his career was this last ankle one and he's 32 years old.


I didn't nail him down as being injury prone or anything like that, but I'd have a ton more confidence in JJ being able to play every night than I would with Manu.

And I didn't even factor in the age. Completely slipped my mind. Nor did I look at their size. 2 more reasons for me to lean towards JJ.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[MateoNeygro]

That's naturally how arguments work, when someone elses argument disagrees with yours, you try to dispute it.

Fair enough, well played....

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Fair enough, well played....


:toast

And nothings personal, it's the internet :lol

[DJB]

playoff stats:

JJ: 15.8 points, 4.3 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 42.3% shooting
Manu: 16.0 points, 4.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 44.3% shooting


I don't understand how Manu is so much better in the playoffs, especially since JJ's playoff stats would be better if not for the 6 playoff games he played as a 21 YO with Stephon Marbury hogging the ball.

It's the things that don't show up in a stat sheet.

[ElNono]

That's naturally how arguments work, when someone elses argument disagrees with yours, you try to dispute it.

Or you just troll it. For example:

LOL D'Antoni
LOL SSOL
LOL Nash
LOL Shaq
LOL Dumbare

:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Or you just troll it. For example:

LOL D'Antoni
LOL SSOL
LOL Nash
LOL Shaq
LOL Dumbare

:lol

There are so many better way to butcher Amar(*%@#(*%@#(%@#(e's name.

[DJB]

Funny how you never mention TParks straight OWNING Dallas single-handedly during the reg. season when we were without Timmy AND Manu and TParks lit yous up for 40+. Dallas turned into a team full of Dork Nowitski's on D and watched the Tony Parker Show.
Yeah, no need to start acting like a lady.... you and the Mavs will be back on your knees next season in NO time.
ALSO notable, Popovich never once mentioned their revaping their roster because of their trying to get past the likes of Dallas. It's always been to beat the Lakers. True Dallas may have had a something to do with lighting a fire under our ownerships cracks to revamp the roster, but humorous, and flattering that Dallas thinks they're so much as a BLIP on our championship Roster.

I'm curious, does Mark Cuban have some sort of post-season party over at the Mavericks stadium for the seasons the Mavs just simply "GET PAST" the Spurs in the playoffs? Does he give out mock "Spurs series Champs" tee-shirts and lapel pins to the players and coaching staff along with little tin trophies for made-up accomplishments like "New BEST Flopper" for Barea, and "JUST HAPPY TO HAVE MADE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS" plaques to Dallas Hierarchy? ---> I ONLY ask because you Dallas fans act as if to have basically WON the Championship JUST by beating a Spurs team at 60% (lips smacking...smacking...) Oh, does that taste bad? Hard to swallow? Mavs in May---> :fishing

Spurs and Fans in Late June----->

:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt:

:danceclub

I like you.

[Sense]

Why? Cause he's done more as the 2nd or 3rd wheel than Joe Johnson has done as the best player?

You seem to forget team Argentina.

Manu is by far the better player... Sure JJ is talented and all that bs but he's nowhere near Manu in my book for many reasons...

I separate NBA players by what they accomplish and how they do that.

If someone fill up the stat sheets.. he's just a good nba player, but nothing special.

Ginobili has done it all... All you have to do is watch Ginobili in the 2005 playoffs to know who the better player is. Don't give me this Duncan next to him bs. If JJ is next to Tim.. chances are he'd be a freaking role player. I really doubt Duncan would count on JJ in the playoffs to get past an opponent.

Without Ginobili.. like many have said.. this Spurs team doesn't win.. and it hasn't. This is in the Western Conference too..

[dirk4mvp]

Spur fans are clinging hard to one playoff run Manu had (where he put up nice, not great number), and using it every time someone dares to say another player is better than him.

[Hemotivo]

Joe J. is a great shooter/scorer; like ray allen and others NBA stars

but Manu is an amazing basketball player

[Sense]

Spur fans are clinging hard to one playoff run Manu had (where he put up nice, not great number), and using it every time someone dares to say another player is better than him.

Anything before 2005.... After that well... yeah that's when injuries started to happen more often..

I'm really surprised by the poll numbers...

I'm not being a homer... being a fan of Manu is like being a fan of basketball. You have to follow him and see everything he's done to appreciate it.

[ElNono]

Spur fans are clinging hard to one playoff run Manu had (where he put up nice, not great number), and using it every time someone dares to say another player is better than him.

Not really. He was the Spurs top scorer only a year ago...

[dirk4mvp]

Not really. He was the Spurs top scorer only a year ago...

by .2 pts a game, wasn't even 20/game and it was also in a year Duncan played the least amount of minutes he's played since 05. :sleep Color me unimpressed.

[ElNono]

by .2 pts a game, wasn't even 20/game and it was also in a year Duncan played the least amount of minutes he's played since 05. :sleep Color me unimpressed.

Not trying to impress you. Merely debunking that we Spurs fans cling only to his '05 performance. He has actually played better for us after that.

[dirk4mvp]

By picking up some of the slack from Duncan being hobbled?


But hey, at least there's that one playoff run!

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

:lol

[Texas_Ranger]

by .2 pts a game, wasn't even 20/game and it was also in a year Duncan played the least amount of minutes he's played since 05. :sleep Color me unimpressed.

yea, but he played just like 30 minutes a game.

[Chieflion]

I agree with DoK. This is 2009, soon to be 2010. This is Joe Johnson by a long shot. Switch Manu into that Hawks team. I don't think they win more. They would maybe be lottery bound.

[diego]

why is JJ's team success a citable positive for him (2nd round as a franchise player) while manu's team success isnt (3 championship, 1 wcf, 2 wcsf as 2nd/3rd option and closer)? is the franchise player the only factor behind team success? does that make JJ better than wade since JJ's much deeper hawks beat wade's inexperienced heat? oh, and JJ is more durable than wade too. does anyone really think JJ is better than wade?

when paul pierce was alone on the celtics, he posted much better numbers than he does now that he has better players around him. the same can be said for kobe, when he was alone and getting scoring titles while barely making the playoffs if at all. where is the evidence that manu would do worse playing bigger minutes and starting? I understand the logic behind it, but if you look at manu's stats his best seasons were the ones he played the most minutes, both RS and PO. and their stats are virtually identical, whether it be averages, career highs, etc.

i can see the argument for JJ. I just think its silly to reduce it to "he plays a bigger role for his team because he is the 1st option". the arguments for JJ, imo, are that he is more careful with the ball, has significant size advantage at his position, is more athletic/durable/younger, has a better shot.
and the argument for manu is that he is more creative with the ball, much better at taking it to the hole and finishing and thus a better scorer, a better rebounder, and in general plays with more intensity.

me personally i prefer manu's reckless drives over JJ's smooth pull up jumpers, because i think games are won in the paint.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You seem to forget team Argentina.


Forgetting team Argentina and not giving two shits about team Argentina are two different things.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Joe J. is a great shooter/scorer; like ray allen and others NBA stars

but Manu is an amazing basketball player


Wtf does that even mean?

[KidCongo]

why is JJ's team success a citable positive for him (2nd round as a franchise player) while manu's team success isnt (3 championship, 1 wcf, 2 wcsf as 2nd/3rd option and closer)? is the franchise player the only factor behind team success? does that make JJ better than wade since JJ's much deeper hawks beat wade's inexperienced heat? oh, and JJ is more durable than wade too. does anyone really think JJ is better than wade?


Nope because Wade won the scoring title this season. Wade lead his inferior team to a similiar record whilst being a 1st team guard. Wade also gained 2nd NBA defensive team whilst gaining the 3rd most votes in DPOY.

You made a stupid analogy.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nope because Wade won the scoring title this season. Wade lead his inferior team to a similiar record whilst being a 1st team guard. Wade also gained 2nd NBA defensive team whilst gaining the 3rd most votes in DPOY.

You made a stupid analogy.


You realize you're arguing with a guy who said the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year?

[diego]

You realize you're arguing with a guy who said the Hawks played the 76ers in the playoffs last year?

you're the one whose only argument is that JJ led his team to the 2nd round. you havent said anything about these two beyond that, and that manu owes his success to the attention tim duncan draws. what have you said about how they actually play, oh great watcher of basketball? so i mixed up the cannon fodder in the eastern conference, wgaf.

the whole point of the analogy was to show that wade's other accomplishments outweigh how his team fared with him as the franchise player. has JJ ever been on an all nba team? manu has.

[DAF86]

I agree with DoK. This is 2009, soon to be 2010. This is Joe Johnson by a long shot. Switch Manu into that Hawks team. I don't think they win more. They would maybe be lottery bound.

The OP question is who is the best basketball player, not who is the best basketball player right now.

[024]

according to mr. hollinger, a hypothetical swap would increase the hawks' wins by 4 and decrease the spurs' wins by 5. hollinger says manu > johnson so it is the law.