Is GM doing something right, or hype?

[Wild Cobra]

GM Says New Volt to Get 230 Mpg in City Driving (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PersonalFinance/wireStory?id=8300252)

[balli]

It could get a third of what they promised and still be a game changer.

That number seems about in line with that of other plug in EV's; mainly the Aptera. And I don't know, if the Tesla's getting 150+ MPG from their Roadster then I'd believe that some slow ass Chevy could conceivably add another 100 to that.

[DarrinS]

Sounds almost too good to be true. We'll probably find out that it only weighs 300 lbs and is made of recycled cardboard.

I'd hold out for crash test results.

[LnGrrrR]

Wow. If that's true, and they can keep the price under 50,000, I'll almost definitely get one.

Although, assuming all our cars go electric... we'll have to come up with a better than than miles per GALLON...

[DarrinS]

Suppposedly, this VW will get 285 mpg, but I don't think I want to be on any Texas roads in this bank teller vacuum tube.

http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/full/TorqueOmata2826.jpg

http://gigazine.jp/img/2008/05/29/vw_1l/vw1l03.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

I think I saw that car in the movie "Brazil"... :lol

[Bender]

I wouldn't mind commuting in one of those....

when they get the Hummers, Avalanches, Yukons, and Escalades off the road.

[DarrinS]

I wouldn't mind commuting in one of those....

when they get the Hummers, Avalanches, Yukons, and Escalades off the road.



Exactly. Not to mention the commercial vehicles.

[balli]

I'm actually a fan of the way The Aptera looks. People would definitely notice you, but meh, it beats that VW above IMO.

http://www.evbeat.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/aptera.jpg

[BacktoBasics]

Even if they got the price all the way down to 35,000 it still wouldn't be worth it. The price would need to be around 25k for it to be a logical move. Spending 250 monthly to save 200 monthly is the kind of shit I expect my winter texans to buy into.

[balli]

Yeah, but believe it or not, for teh good liberals, not everything is about monetarily breaking even.

[Wild Cobra]

It could get a third of what they promised and still be a game changer.

That number seems about in line with that of other plug in EV's; mainly the Aptera. And I don't know, if the Tesla's getting 150+ MPG from their Roadster then I'd believe that some slow ass Chevy could conceivably add another 100 to that.I agree, it's a player at far less than the claim. That's my concern. If it's hyped, then people might be unhappy with their decision if they buy because they believe what might be hype. Something that will be as good as it is, I hope the claim is real. It could be 150 MPG claim, and it could be a hot seller.

As for the Tesla, it is reported at 120 MPG efficiency of electricity? Regardless, it is more streamline chassis being on a lotus rather than a sedan. If GM is making a 240 MPG claim for electricity alone, that seems a real big stretch to me. Then with in inefficient of recharging with an IC engine, I find it impossible on gas to get close. If it used a fuel cell that converted hydrocarbon chains to electricity, I could see 240 MPG. That's the only way. Not the article does have a pic that says "fuel cell" in it, but then the article says "Internal combustion engine also. Is there a mistake in the article, or a misleading pic?

[Wild Cobra]

Wow. If that's true, and they can keep the price under 50,000, I'll almost definitely get one.

Although, assuming all our cars go electric... we'll have to come up with a better than than miles per GALLON...I agree. Miles per KWH (kilo-watt-hours)

[BacktoBasics]

Yeah, but believe it or not, for teh good liberals, not everything is about monetarily breaking even.Regardless. It'll boil down to whether or not people buy and if its fiscally not worth it or its too much of a burden it simply won't sell.

I'd love to see this on fleet vehicles and rentals.

[Wild Cobra]

Even if they got the price all the way down to 35,000 it still wouldn't be worth it. The price would need to be around 25k for it to be a logical move. Spending 250 monthly to save 200 monthly is the kind of shit I expect my winter texans to buy into.It really depends on your electric rates, but even at high rates, an electric car is several factors more efficient than gasoline. Instead of 10 cents per mile with a reasonable car mileage, an electric car costs at the most 3 cents a mile. I think the Tesla costs 2 cents a mile at California electricity rates.

[SonOfAGun]

Driving to the coast using less than 1 gallon blows my mind.

[ChumpDumper]

the article does have a pic that says "fuel cell" in it, but then the article says "Internal combustion engine also. Is there a mistake in the article, or a misleading pic?Misleading pic. That is a video for a different car using a fuel cell that they were field testing.

[SonOfAGun]

Yeah, but believe it or not, for teh good liberals, not everything is about monetarily breaking even.

It's too bad those "good liberals" try to push that mentality on everyone else.

Shazam!

[CubanMustGo]

nm

[SnakeBoy]

If they can make it work and affordable the concept of the volt will be the future of the auto industry. When GM decided to bet it's future on the concept many said it would break the company, it did. It will be interesting to see what happens now that the government owns GM. I certainly won't be the first in line to buy one.

Here's a 2008 article if your interested...
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/general-motors

[SnakeBoy]

The question is can they come up with a battery that will deliver enough power to make this concept appealing to consumers.

[101A]

It could get a third of what they promised and still be a game changer.

That number seems about in line with that of other plug in EV's; mainly the Aptera. And I don't know, if the Tesla's getting 150+ MPG from their Roadster then I'd believe that some slow ass Chevy could conceivably add another 100 to that.

Errr. the Tesla ONLY has batteries - Gallon of What, exactly?

Also, getting 250 mpg is great, but that's AFTER the battery has been charged by household current -

It's a big deal, but it's also hype.

[101A]

The question is can they come up with a battery that will deliver enough power to make this concept appealing to consumers.

The Volt has an engine that comes on to recharge the battery; making this issue less of an issue.

[boutons_deux]

"It could get a third of what they promised and still be a game changer. "

Cars like Jetta Diesel TDI are already in the 65 - 70 MPG highway, without the complexity of electric motor, batteries, etc. But, no games changed.

[DarrinS]

Is it just me, or do most Americans NOT want to drive a giant suppository, powered by a sewing machine?

[101A]

Is it just me, or do most Americans NOT want to drive a giant suppository, powered by a sewing machine?

shhhhh.

[SnakeBoy]

The Volt has an engine that comes on to recharge the battery; making this issue less of an issue.

What I meant was can they develop a battery that provides enough power and delivers sufficient range. People won't go for a tiny car that can barely get up a hill. The larger and more powerful you make the vehicle the shorter the range, the battery becomes larger and the larger the engine becomes to recharge the battery. The larger the engine & battery becomes the more power you need to move the vehicle. It's a real engineering challenge. I hope they can pull it off.

[SnakeBoy]

Cars like Jetta Diesel TDI are already in the 65 - 70 MPG highway, without the complexity of electric motor, batteries, etc. But, no games changed.

Ford is aggressively pursuing the diesel route. However none of those vehicles will be available in the US because the heavy taxation of diesel in this country negates any type of savings from the extra mpg.

[SnakeBoy]

The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have
Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.
The ECOnetic will go on sale in Europe in November
By David Kiley

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.

Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."

None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.

TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT
First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.

The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=autos_autos+--+lifestyle+subindex+page_top+stories

[Wild Cobra]

Fuel-cell's are incredibly efficienct, but incredibly dangerous. The smallest tanks someone would use hydrogen for..welding, lab etc can cause the biggest of explosions. I wonder how crash ratings will work with that. Hydrogen is a amazing source of entropy.

I've always been convinced that the most efficient transmission would be with a vehicle without carrying the fuel/energy onboard. Much like a subway or electric trolley. That way, weight is reduced and efficiency is high (minus minor transmission losses, which is still often still better than the losses of carrying fuel onboard)please re-read what I said. I was not talking about hydrogen fuel cells, but hydrocarbon fuel cells... i.e... fuel cells that convert gasoline, diesel, etc. to electricity without burning it. There are inventors that have been working on the concept, but I thing they have only made it work with the smallest paraffin molecule (methane). Methane is a better gas than hydrogen. It can be compressed, and has twice the hydrogen atoms per molecule plus a carbon. It also has a form as a small battery. Please take the time to check these links out:

The Hopedale Methane Fuel Cell Demonstration:
Showing that Technology is America's Best Tool (http://www.fossil.energy.gov/news/speeches/2003/03_slutz_cmmfuelcell.html)

SECA Fuel Cell Proves Successful in Navy's Proof-of-Concept Testing (http://www.fossil.energy.gov/news/techlines/2008/08032-Fuel_Cells_Pass_Navy_Test.html)

Neah methane fuel cell (http://www.electronicsincanada.com/index.php/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,274/id,35/task,videodirectlink/) (watch the video)

[boutons_deux]

If diesel cars in the US can be taxed out of the market, they can be taxed into the market. Lower the tax on diesel, or raise the tax on gasoline.

Not I think the US will pull its head of it ass on fuel tax policy to stimulate conservation. nah, Exxon and friends would abort that idea at conception.

The US does whatever is best for the corps, not for the citizens, not for the environment,not for US security.

[SonOfAGun]

Shiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Didn't they start taxing home-made bio-diesel recently???

[Wild Cobra]

Something else about hydrogen fuel cells vs. methane fuel cells:

CH4(g) + 2O2(g) → CO2(g) + 2H2O(l) + 890 kJ/mol

2H2 + O2(g) → 2H2O + 286 kJ/mol

Look how much more energy methane has, and how easy we already store it.