Spurs player pairings(which Spurs pairs play the best togerher)

[whottt]

Ok, last 82Games post for the night...

82Games (http://www.82games.com/0405SASP.HTM)


Player Pairs/Tandem statistics

The following numbers represent the plus/minus per 48 minute stats while two specific players were on the floor together. The summary table is color coded with the green cells representing cases where the +/- numbers for the player in the far left column were better with that specific teammate than his overall +/- stats.

Please note that these numbers are in raw form and have not been adjusted for the other players in the five-man unit, nor for the opposing 5-man unit on the floor at the same time. We do have adjusted ratings available, as well as full details on the 2-man pairs (team eFG%, rebounding, turnover data, shot selection, etc) -- for more information contact us.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/afb04415d7.gif

[whottt]

When you look at this thing in color coated terms it gives you a revealing and in some cases, confirming, perspective...

Looking at the solid green down the lines of Duncan and Manu...well obviously they make everyone they play with better...no secret there...but they also make each other better...their highest +/- pair on the team is each other...

Is it any wonder we look like a far different team now with that dynamic gone?

But take a look at Rasho...after Duncan and Manu he may be the guy that does the most to make most of his teamates better...

What's surprising(or not, to some of us)...is that there is only one player on the team that seems to lift the games of both Duncan and Manu...and his name Robert Horry...looking back on his past...it's not really much of a surprise.

What's also revealing is that the Beno/Parker backcourt pairing is absolute poison...

Take a look at the total white down the columns of Brown, Rose, Bowen and Massenburg...these guys seem to have the least amount of impact on the games of their teamates..and in a way they are all very similar players who carry the toughness, hustling, and defensive aspect of this team...they get the dirty work.

In Bruce's case...Bruce plays on an Island, he plays within the teams offense, but his defensive role pretty much leaves him to live or die on his own...his job is defense

Devin and Malik were hustling energy type guys capable of big numbers or kickstarting a team with hustle...but their big games did not necessarily translate to the team playing well...I have been saying this all season...

Mass is kind of enforcer type...it's usually not a pretty game when he is in there...

Now take a look at the left side of names and look down the lines of Parker and RAsho...

These guys are the inverse of Bowen, Rose, Mass and Brown...

Very few of their teamates seem to be able to raise their games or make them better...they are capable of making others better, but very few seem to be capable of making them better. Their sucess is by and large up to them and no one else....Brown and Massenburg seem to be able to be helped the most by their teamates.

Then smack dab in the middle of it you have Manu....I think we all agree that Manu is a jack of all trades...What's interesting looking down Manu's lines is that...

Not only does he seem to make every other player on the team better, including Rasho and Parker...the two that seem be helped the least amount by their teamates.....



But when you look down Manu's left hand line...you see the players he seems to play the best with are Parker, Barry, Duncan and Horry....those are the ones that give him the most green....

I think if you polled most Spurfans in the offeseason...that would be lineup most Spursfans would pick for being the most effective and the one they most want on the court in the 4th quarter...

Which begs the question...why is that the most seldom used 5 man lineup on the team this season? Go look at the Spurs 5 man pariings and that lineup isn't evne listed because it's been used so few minutes....

Things that make you go hmmm.

[whottt]

It's also kind of interesting that Duncan's second best +/- after Manu is with Beno...And I'd say Beno probably has been the best 3 shooter off Duncan's kickouts this season...not Barry.

[Summers]

Interesting chart. The first thing I thought was "Holy cow, Rasho!"

[MI21]

But when you look down Manu's left hand line...you see the players he seems to play the best with are Parker, Barry, Duncan and Horry....those are the ones that give him the most green....

I think if you polled most Spurfans in the offeseason...that would be lineup most Spursfans would pick for being the most effective and the one they most want on the court in the 4th quarter...

Which begs the question...why is that the most seldom used 5 man lineup on the team this season? Go look at the Spurs 5 man pariings and that lineup isn't evne listed because it's been used so few minutes....

Things that make you go hmmm.

No shit huh.

Parker, Barry, Ginobili, Horry, Duncan is the lineup I would want out on the court in crunch time, perhaps substituting Bowen in for somebody if opposing team has a player going off (Kobe, Tmac, Allen, LeBron, Iverson etc..).

Very surprsing to see it is very rarely used, I can't really see why that would be. Spurs didn't have to many close games when those 5 were all healthy, and as noted 657,990 times by Whottt, Barry often hasn't been used in the clutch. Strange.

[whottt]

The best and worst 5 man lineups for each player using the +/- of pairings...

Note: This is essentially a bunch of crap that has no true bearing on what the actual most productive 5 man units are with each player during actual court time together. It's just adding their highest and lowest +/- pairings just for the hell of it.

Beno:
Best - Barry, Ginobili, Horry, Duncan +49
Worst - Brown, Bowen, Massenburg, Rasho +3

Parker:
Best - Ginobili, Bowen, Duncan, Rasho +52(Tony's best lineup is the starting lineup)
Worst - Barry, Brown, Horry, Massenburg +20

Barry:
Best - Parker, Manu, Horry, Duncan +40
Worst - Udrih, Brown, Massenburg, Rasho +17

Brown:
Best - Beno, Manu, Horry, Duncan +34
Worst - Parker, Bruce, Massenburg, Rasho -3

Manu:
Best - Parker, Barry, Horry, Duncan +59
Worst - Beno, Brown, Massenburg, Rasho +49

Bruce:
Best - Parker, Manu, Duncan, Rasho +48<<<The starting lineup
Worst - Beno, Devin, Horry, Massenburg -7

Horry:
Best - Beno, Barry, Manu, Duncan +58
Worst - Parker, Brown, Bowen, Massenburg +26

Massenburg:
Best - Parker, Barry, Manu, Rasho +13 Weird...the only "best" lineup without Tim Duncan in it.
Worst - Beno, Brown, Bowen, Duncan -28 Even more weird...Duncan is in his worst lineup.

Duncan:
Best - Beno, Barry, Manu, Horry or Rasho +73
Worst - Parker, Brown, Bowen, Massenburg +39

Rasho:
Best - Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan +56<<<<Starting lineup
Worst - Beno, Barry, Brown, Massenburg +34

Manu is the only guy in every teamates "best" lineup...
Massenburg and Brown are in every teamates "worst" lineup.

Manu, Duncan and Horry are the most common 3 man combo in the best lineups.

Duncan, Manu, Barry and Horry are all in each others best lineups, and Beno's as well....that's the combo featured in the most "best" lineups...with Parker being the PG with Barry and Manu's best, and Beno being the PG with Duncan and Horry's best(and Beno).

Or to put it another way...

Barry and Manu both have the same "best" lineup.

Horry, Duncan and Beno all have the same "best" lineup(although Rasho and Horry are interchangeable in Duncan's best)...

Tony, Bruce and Rasho all have the same best lineup.

Duncan has the highest rated "best" lineup, by far.
Manu has the highest rated "worst" line up, also by far...in fact his "worst" lineup is the 5th "best" lineup listed.

[Solid D]

Interesting stats Whottt. Could also be titled: "Making the guys around you better"

Top 5 best pairings by that chart (which doesn't include Nazr Mohammed on it)
+20 Duncan and Ginobili
+19 Duncan and Horry
+19 Duncan and Nesterovic
+19 Duncan and Udrih
+17 Ginobili and Horry

Top 5 worst pairings by that chart
-14 Massenburg and Udrih
-12 Rose and Nesterovic
-11 Parker and Udrih
- 9 Rose and Massenburg
- 8 Bowen and Brown

Ginobili is in double figures with everyone except Malik Rose (only a +8). The only player Rose played better with, though was with Tim Duncan (+15).

[MI21]

Top 5 best pairings by that chart (which doesn't include Nazr Mohammed on it)

Best and Nazr in the same sentence. Come on, Solid.

:lol

[boutons]

Consistent with what a lot of us felt: Tony + Beno sucks.

[Solid D]

:lol @ MI21

Continuing the thought of players making the guys around them better...
acknowledging that "minutes played" impacts these stats, here are the rankings if you add up the +/- numbers for each player, not including their own (blue box):

Making the guys around them better
1. Tim Duncan +146
2. Manu Ginobili +141
3. Robert Horry +99
4. Rasho Nesterovic +85
5. Brent Barry +72
6. Tony Parker +65
7. Bruce Bowen +50
8. Beno Udrih +41
9. Devin Brown +19
10. Malik Rose +9
11. Tony Massenburg -18

[MI21]

Those statistics don't take into account making the players on the other team worse by smashing them in the face, arm, chest, etc.

When you take that into account, T-Mass is +539.

[whottt]

No shit huh.

Parker, Barry, Ginobili, Horry, Duncan is the lineup I would want out on the court in crunch time, perhaps substituting Bowen in for somebody if opposing team has a player going off (Kobe, Tmac, Allen, LeBron, Iverson etc..).

Very surprsing to see it is very rarely used, I can't really see why that would be. Spurs didn't have to many close games when those 5 were all healthy, and as noted 657,990 times by Whottt, Barry often hasn't been used in the clutch. Strange.


Yeah and what makes it strange is back in the early part of the season that line up was one of the more popular and it rated as the best 5 man unit on the team(and AHF and I both posted that)...

Yet it has been completely unused since the beginning of the season...Lineups with Manu, Barry and Horry in them together are scarce period...Although they should be getting more common right now.

I think think Pop doesn't want to make Barry or Manu play SF, they haven't gotten much court time together this season until recently...and I think Pop doesn't like making Duncan play C...that's the only reason I can think of as to why that lineup isn't used more...who knows...maybe he really didn't like all those blowouts.

[SequSpur]

Rose doesn't play for the Spurs. Get over it. Plus in back to back games Manu can't play and Pop can't coach.

It doesn't take a chart to figure this out.

How about a chart on Manu since his allstar selection, and back to back games. Also, when Manu fails to show up for a game how many times does the Spurs lose by 20 because he needs to sit on the couch and rest?

Huh?

[whottt]

Dickhead....don't blame me...blame 82 games.com...he's still on the chart and I didn't put him there...GFY

[SequSpur]

My sincerest apology.

[Solid D]

The "Pop, Please Don't Play These Guys Together!" List

1. -14 Udrih and Massenburg
2. -12 Rose and Nesterovic
3. -11 Udrih and Parker
4. - 9 Rose and Massenburg
5. - 8 Brown and Bowen
5. - 8 Brown and Massenburg
7. - 7 Brown and Rose
7. - 7 Bowen and Massenburg
9. -1 Brown and Parker

[whottt]

Interesting stats Whottt. Could also be titled: "Making the guys around you better"

Top 5 best pairings by that chart (which doesn't include Nazr Mohammed on it)
+20 Duncan and Ginobili
+19 Duncan and Horry
+19 Duncan and Nesterovic
+19 Duncan and Udrih
+17 Ginobili and Horry

Top 5 worst pairings by that chart
-14 Massenburg and Udrih
-12 Rose and Nesterovic
-11 Parker and Udrih
- 9 Rose and Massenburg
- 8 Bowen and Brown

Ginobili is in double figures with everyone except Malik Rose (only a +8). The only player Rose played better with, though was with Tim Duncan (+15).


Yeah...you could say that the "green" running north south indicates franchise player ability and the lack of it indicates more of a role player or specialist...it's pretty interesting how much the +/- matches the general consensus of Spursfans on those players strengths and weaknesses...

By the same token when you look at things running right and left you get a good look at the players that are the most versatile and adaptable to their teamates and those that aren't...

It's interesting Parker and Rasho seem to be able to help their teamates play better quite a bit...but they don't necessarily play their best with everyone...even if they are helping others...

Good catch on that Rasho Malik pairing..that's another poison one...although they did play well together last season IIRC.

[Solid D]

Sequ, of all the threads, this one should be the most humbling for you. Your last post, though, was appropriate for this thread.


My sincerest apology.

[picnroll]

I think when you go down the columns it's pretty obvious why Horry beat out Malik and why Malik needed to be dumped to reclaim the salary. Every single played at or above their average teamed with Horry. Every single player played below their average teamed with Rose. And Rose and Rasho were death warmed over together.

[SequSpur]

Seriously, It would be amazing to see some better players around Duncan, especially in the post.

[SequSpur]

Sequ, of all the threads, this one should be the most humbling for you. Your last post, though, was appropriate for this thread.


Thanks Solid. I really appreciate it from you man.

Thanks.

[MI21]

Seriously, It would be amazing to see some better players around Duncan, especially in the post.

Where are good players going to post up on offense, with Duncan also posting?

Please don't say on the other side.

[picnroll]

Seriously, It would be amazing to see some better players around Duncan, especially in the post.
1999 - David Robinson. Seemed to work pretty well.

[whottt]

I think when you go down the columns it's pretty obvious why Horry beat out Malik and why Malik needed to be dumped to reclaim the salary. Every single played at or above their average teamed with Horry. Every single player played below their average teamed with Rose. And Rose and Rasho were death warmed over together.


That's a given that Horry beat Malik out because of his versatility and his ability to play off of great players...I never said otherwise.

But what you don't see there is that if you take away the great players...Guys like Malik and Devin are more capable of putting up huge numbers than guys like Barry and Horry....and that's why these injuries are killing us right now....they seem to play their best in ugly games...Everyone has their role and +/- isn't everything...they might not do a great job of making their teamates better...but that doesn't mean they can't win their one on one matchup, and their teamates are capable of lifting their games.

Bruce is a great example of that...If Bruce has a bad night...we are likely to get smoked...even though he doesn't really help elevate his teamtes game that much...

And we can't see Nazr's +/- either...I bet his are worse than Malik's.

[SequSpur]

MI21,

Pull out your Laker vs Spurs VHS tape from last years playoffs and get back to me.

Again, I think in terms of winning championships, not in terms of winning games during the regular season and making foreign countries proud of their fellow citizens making it in the NBA.

But yeah....... on the other side.

[SequSpur]

1999 - David Robinson. Seemed to work pretty well.

I don't understand your point, but David is retired. We are talking about today, tomorrow and the future. The 99 and 03 championships have nothing to do with today.

[picnroll]

Meant to put the bubble in response to MI21 saying Duncan couldn't be effect with another post player.

[SequSpur]

ah.... good one.

[picnroll]

Playoffs the big rotation will get shortened to Duncan, Rasho, Horry and a few scrub minutes until Shaq shows up if he does. Malik would only get scrub minutes or desperstion minutes.

Glad to lose the contract and hopefully get a good big next year with Nazr's ending contract. Scola cheap maybe and hopefully another like Marshall.

If Pop and RC hadn't fucked up and gone after Varejao instead of Beno Spurs would be sitting pretty.

[Solid D]

MI21,

Pull out your Laker vs Spurs VHS tape from last years playoffs and get back to me.

Again, I think in terms of winning championships, not in terms of winning games during the regular season and making foreign countries proud of their fellow citizens making it in the NBA.

:rollin Classic.

[MI21]

Meant to put the bubble in response to MI21 saying Duncan couldn't be effect with another post player.

David only played 25-28mpg, was always best out high and not on the low block and was never given the chance to post up down low in his latter years, especially not with Tim in the game.

I never said Duncan couldn't be effective with another post player, but the other player suffers because there is nobody else you would rather post up than Duncan. Why pay big salary to somebody who isn't going to be effective because you already have someone who is much better at doing the same thing. There is only so much room in the paint and on the block as well.

[MI21]

Sequ, how is posting someone up on the other side of the key, crowding the keyway making it hard for each post player to get space and easy shots, helping the Spurs win the championship?

[picnroll]

David only played 25-28mpg, was always best out high and not on the low block and was never given the chance to post up down low in his latter years, especially not with Tim in the game.

I never said Duncan couldn't be effective with another post player, but the other player suffers because there is nobody else you would rather post up than Duncan. Why pay big salary to somebody who isn't going to be effective because you already have someone who is much better at doing the same thing. There is only so much room in the paint and on the block as well.

One, Duncan posts up less and less now days, usually now when he has a mismatch on a smaller post player.

Two, if the Spurs have a second strong post player it forces mismatches. Now the other team needs two strong post defenders. One to stay with Duncan and one to stay with the other big.

Three, Robinson wasn't a back to the basket post up player but he was a drive to the basket big. Duncan occupied the space but Robinson still got his shots in and the high low game was a killer.

Four, at the other end having two post defenders is sweet .

The Chandler that they tried to get would be two post players that would have worked just fine. Varejao would have been :smokin.

[MI21]

One, Duncan posts up less and less now days, usually now when he has a mismatch on a smaller post player.

When it matters, Duncan will be posting up a lot more often. At least I hope so.



Two, if the Spurs have a second strong post player it forces mismatches. Now the other team needs two strong post defenders. One to stay with Duncan and one to stay with the other big.

I don't really care what the mismatch is on the other player, I'd much rather be dumping it into Duncan. I just don't see the point in having 2 post players doing the same thing and giving them both big money one will suffice and the money can be spend on something better.


Three, Robinson wasn't a back to the basket post up player but he was a drive to the basket big. Duncan occupied the space but Robinson still got his shots in and the high low game was a killer.

Duncan was on the other side when Robinson drove from high, essentially drawing defenders across, creating an open area. Duncan wasn't standing in Dave's driving area. Sequ was talking about low post players, 2 good low post players generally creates spacing problems. Hi-Lo wasn't 2 players posting up like Sequ was talking about.


Four, at the other end having two post defenders is sweet .

Indeed. We have 2 good post defenders already. Some people won't admit this :) (not saying you)


The Chandler that they tried to get would be two post players that would have worked just fine. Varejao would have been

Chandler ain't no low post threat. Athletic Garbage who gets putbacks, tip ins, and dunk off passes. I would of loved him on the squad, dude is averaging almost 10rpg off the bench.

[MI21]

One, Duncan posts up less and less now days, usually now when he has a mismatch on a smaller post player.

When it matters, Duncan will be posting up a lot more often. At least I hope so.



Two, if the Spurs have a second strong post player it forces mismatches. Now the other team needs two strong post defenders. One to stay with Duncan and one to stay with the other big.

I don't really care what the mismatch is on the other player, I'd much rather be dumping it into Duncan. I just don't see the point in having 2 post players doing the same thing and giving them both big money one will suffice and the money can be spend on something better.


Three, Robinson wasn't a back to the basket post up player but he was a drive to the basket big. Duncan occupied the space but Robinson still got his shots in and the high low game was a killer.

Duncan was on the other side when Robinson drove from high, essentially drawing defenders across, creating an open area. Duncan wasn't standing in Dave's driving area. Sequ was talking about low post players, 2 good low post players generally creates spacing problems. Hi-Lo wasn't 2 players posting up like Sequ was talking about.


Four, at the other end having two post defenders is sweet .

Indeed. We have 2 good post defenders already. Some people won't admit this :) (not saying you)


The Chandler that they tried to get would be two post players that would have worked just fine. Varejao would have been

Chandler ain't no low post threat. Athletic garbage man who gets putbacks, tip ins, and dunks off passes. I would of loved him on the squad, dude is averaging almost 10rpg off the bench.

[SequSpur]

Sequ, how is posting someone up on the other side of the key, crowding the keyway making it hard for each post player to get space and easy shots, helping the Spurs win the championship?

Defense. We're not talking about offense.

Rasho hasn't showed up for a road game in two months. Nazr has just been ummmm........ I don't even want to formulate an opinion yet on him.... His uniform is still new.

Massenburg? Ask the other 29 teams he's played for.

Marks? Dude is cool, makes the best candy in the world, but dude is barely a role player.

Spurs are hurting in this department and it really is magnified when Duncan is out.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs have Parker, Manu, Duncan, Barry and Sideshot Bowen. That's enough O.

I am talking D E F E N S E.

[MI21]

Rasho is fantastic defensively, when Tim is around. Tim elevates everyones game.

You expect the Spurs to be championship contender without Tim? You want them to plan to be a great team without Tim, when they have him on the team? Silly.

[picnroll]

Rasho is good unless another team goes small or has a big that can take him out on the floor or he can be forced into switches on smaller players. Then Spurs have to get him off the floor or make him the only big and sacrifice a lot of low post offense.

MI21 since SequSpur stipulated better players especially in the post that means the player has to be better than Rasho. Post is O and D. You followed up that a good post player wouldn't work with Duncan. Bridge the gap. Name a post player with a better game than Rasho that couldn't play with Duncan.

[MI21]

Name a post player with a better game than Rasho that couldn't play with Duncan.

Never said couldn't play, just said not worth the money signing a copycat of Tim who isn't as good.

Name a player? It would not be a great idea to sign an Eddy Curry to a big deal, he needs the low block to operate. The money could be spent elsewhere.

[picnroll]

Doubt the Spurs would be interested in Curry. Given Curry's rebounding, shot blocking, defense I wouldn't consider him a better post player than Rasho.

What about Scola? He's primarily a low post player. You think he'll work with Duncan on the offensive end?

[MI21]

What about Scola? He's primarily a low post player. You think he'll work with Duncan on the offensive end?

Is he able to play high post?


Doubt the Spurs would be interested in Curry. Given Curry's rebounding, shot blocking, defense I wouldn't consider him a better post player than Rasho.

Just so you know, I realise that the Spurs would not be interested in Eddy.

[picnroll]

Is he able to play high post?
Don't know. At his level, non-NBA, he has been able to put the ball on the floor and drive. I think he has a pretty reliable mid-range shot, others could comment who've seen him consistently. He can pass. What I've seen of him in half court O though he's occupied the low post mainly. But as is apparent now Spurs can use a second low post offensive player. When Duncan is resting or injured Spurs have near zero low post offensive players. Horry tries. That was Malik's biggest value for those ranting how we miss Malik now with Duncan injured, low post O, but half the time he'd get stuffed in the low post and he rarely knew when to quit trying and to kick it out.

[zeleni]

The "Pop, Please Don't Play These Guys Together!" List


3. -11 Udrih and Parker


If Brown does not recuparate we have only one poison pair for playoffs. And still they should know how to play with each other on a serious playoff night. It seems the championship is decided on the Tim Duncan's recovery and Beno&Tony clicking. Wouldn't you think so?

[zeleni]

Is he able to play high post?



Scola is playing a forward and is skilled mostly on offensive side. Think he should know how to play any post, but in limited time. European basket is mostly on versatility and efficiency. To be limited on particular game makes you half of a player you once have been. So the Rasho and Scola should combine high post game (and learn what they don't know about it).
But still, I am just a great optimist. ;)

[EasilyAmused]

Ok, last 82Games post for the night...

82Games (http://www.82games.com/0405SASP.HTM)


Player Pairs/Tandem statistics

The following numbers represent the plus/minus per 48 minute stats while two specific players were on the floor together. The summary table is color coded with the green cells representing cases where the +/- numbers for the player in the far left column were better with that specific teammate than his overall +/- stats.

Please note that these numbers are in raw form and have not been adjusted for the other players in the five-man unit, nor for the opposing 5-man unit on the floor at the same time. We do have adjusted ratings available, as well as full details on the 2-man pairs (team eFG%, rebounding, turnover data, shot selection, etc) -- for more information contact us.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/afb04415d7.gif


Very cool and interesting chart. It took me a while to "get" it but I did! :lol
Thank you.