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Extra Stout
08-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Leading conservative economist Bruce Bartlett writes that the Obama-hating town-hall mobs have it wrong—the person they should be angry with left the White House seven months ago. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-12/the-gops-misplaced-rage/full/)

Where is the evidence that everything would be better if Republicans were in charge? Does anyone believe the economy would be growing faster or that unemployment would be lower today if John McCain had won the election? I know of no economist who holds that view. The economy is like an ocean liner that turns only very slowly. The gross domestic product and the level of employment would be pretty much the same today under any conceivable set of policies enacted since Barack Obama’s inauguration.

In January, the Congressional Budget Office projected a deficit this year of $1.2 trillion before Obama took office, with no estimate for actions he might take. To a large extent, the CBO’s estimate simply represented the $482 billion deficit projected by the Bush administration in last summer’s budget review, plus the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program, which George W. Bush rammed through Congress in September over strenuous conservative objections. Thus the vast bulk of this year’s currently estimated $1.8 trillion deficit was determined by Bush’s policies, not Obama’s.

I think conservative anger is misplaced. To a large extent, Obama is only cleaning up messes created by Bush. This is not to say Obama hasn’t made mistakes himself, but even they can be blamed on Bush insofar as Bush’s incompetence led to the election of a Democrat. If he had done half as good a job as most Republicans have talked themselves into believing he did, McCain would have won easily.

Conservative protesters should remember that the recession, which led to so many of the policies they oppose, is almost entirely the result of Bush’s policies. According to the National Bureau of Economic Research, the recession began in December 2007—long before Obama was even nominated. And the previous recession ended in November 2001, so the current recession cannot be blamed on cyclical forces that Bush inherited.

Indeed, Bush’s responsibility for the recession is implicit in every conservative analysis of its origins. The most thorough has been done by John Taylor, a respected economist from Stanford University who served during most of the Bush administration as the No. 3 official at the Treasury Department. In his book, Getting Off Track, he puts most of the blame on the Federal Reserve for holding interest rates down too low for too long.

While the Fed does bear much responsibility for sowing the seeds of recession, it’s commonly treated as an institution independent of politics and even the government itself. But the Federal Reserve Board consists of governors appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate.

Because the president appoints the board, he has primary influence over its policies. This is especially the case for chairmen of the Fed appointed by Republicans because they often have ties to Republican administrations. Chairman Ben Bernanke was originally appointed as a member of the Fed in 2002, serving until 2005, when he became chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers in the White House, a position that made him Bush’s chief economic adviser.

As early as 2002, a majority of the seven-member Federal Reserve Board was Bush appointees, and by 2006 every member was a Bush appointee. While many critical decisions about monetary policy are made by the Federal Open Market Committee, the board’s position always prevails.

The Treasury secretary also has had breakfast with the Fed chairman on a weekly basis for decades. Consequently, most economists generally believe that every administration ultimately gets the Fed policy it wants. Therefore, one must conclude that if there were errors in Fed policy that caused the current downturn, it must be because the Fed was doing what the Bush administration wanted it to do.

To the extent that there were mistakes in housing policy that contributed to the recession, those were necessarily committed by Bush political appointees at the Department of Housing and Urban Development, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and other agencies. To the extent that banks and other financial institutions made mistakes or engaged in fraudulent activity, it was either overlooked or sanctioned by Bush appointees at the Securities & Exchange Commission, the Comptroller of the Currency, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, and elsewhere.

But in a larger sense, the extremely poor economic performance of the Bush years really set the stage for the current recession. This is apparent when we compare Bush’s two terms to Bill Clinton’s eight years. Since both took office close to a business cycle trough and left office close to a cyclical peak, this is a reasonable comparison.

Throughout the Bush years, many conservative economists, including CNBC’s Larry Kudlow, extravagantly extolled Bush’s economic policies. As late as December 21, 2007, after the recession already began, he wrote in National Review: “the Goldilocks economy is outperforming all expectations.” In a column on May 2, 2008, almost six months into the recession, Kudlow praised Bush for having prevented a recession.

But the truth was always that the economy performed very, very badly under Bush, and the best efforts of his cheerleaders cannot change that fact because the data don’t lie. Consider these comparisons between Bush and Clinton:

• Between the fourth quarter of 1992 and the fourth quarter of 2000, real GDP grew 34.7 percent. Between the fourth quarter of 2000 and the fourth quarter of 2008, it grew 15.9 percent, less than half as much.

• Between the fourth quarter of 1992 and the fourth quarter of 2000, real gross private domestic investment almost doubled. By the fourth quarter of 2008, real investment was 6.5 percent lower than it was when Bush was elected.

• Between December 1992 and December 2000, payroll employment increased by more than 23 million jobs, an increase of 21.1 percent. Between December 2000 and December 2008, it rose by a little more than 2.5 million, an increase of 1.9 percent. In short, about 10 percent as many jobs were created on Bush’s watch as were created on Clinton’s.

• During the Bush years, conservative economists often dismissed the dismal performance of the economy by pointing to a rising stock market. But the stock market was lackluster during the Bush years, especially compared to the previous eight. Between December 1992 and December 2000, the S&P 500 Index more than doubled. Between December 2000 and December 2008, it fell 34 percent. People would have been better off putting all their investments into cash under a mattress the day Bush took office.

• Finally, conservatives have an absurdly unjustified view that Republicans have a better record on federal finances. It is well-known that Clinton left office with a budget surplus and Bush left with the largest deficit in history. Less well-known is Clinton’s cutting of spending on his watch, reducing federal outlays from 22.1 percent of GDP to 18.4 percent of GDP. Bush, by contrast, increased spending to 20.9 percent of GDP. Clinton abolished a federal entitlement program, Welfare, for the first time in American history, while Bush established a new one for prescription drugs.

Conservatives delude themselves that the Bush tax cuts worked and that the best medicine for America’s economic woes is more tax cuts; at a minimum, any tax increase would be economic poison. They forget that Ronald Reagan worked hard to pass one of the largest tax increases in American history in September 1982, the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, even though the nation was still in a recession that didn’t end until November of that year. Indeed, one could easily argue that the enactment of that legislation was a critical prerequisite to recovery because it led to a decline in interest rates. The same could be said of Clinton’s 1993 tax increase, which many conservatives predicted would cause a recession but led to one of the biggest economic booms in history.

According to the CBO, federal taxes will amount to just 15.5 percent of GDP this year. That’s 2.2 percent of GDP less than last year, 3.3 percent less than in 2007, and 1.8 percent less than the lowest percentage recorded during the Reagan years. If conservatives really believe their own rhetoric, they should be congratulating Obama for being one of the greatest tax cutters in history.

Conservatives will respond that some tax cuts are good while others are not. Determining which is which is based on something called supply-side economics. Because I was among those who developed it, I think I can speak authoritatively on the subject. According to the supply-side view, temporary tax cuts and tax credits are economically valueless. Only permanent cuts in marginal tax rates will significantly raise growth.

On this basis, we see that Bush’s tax cuts were pretty much the opposite of what supply-side economics would recommend. The vast bulk of his tax cuts involved tax rebates—which failed in 2001 and again in 2008, because the vast bulk of the money was saved—or tax credits that had no incentive effects. While marginal rates were cut slightly—the top rate fell from 39.6 percent to 35 percent—it was phased in slowly and never made permanent. Neither were Bush’s cuts in capital gains and dividend taxes.

I could go on to discuss other Bush mistakes that had negative economic consequences, such as the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, which imposed a massive regulatory burden on corporations without doing anything to prevent corporate misconduct, and starting unnecessary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which will burden the economy for decades to come in the form of veterans’ benefits.

But there is yet another dimension to Bush’s failures—the things he didn’t do. In this category I would put a health-care overhaul. Budget experts have known for years that Medicare was on an unsustainable financial path. It is impossible to pay all the benefits that have been promised because spending has been rising faster than GDP.

In 2003, the Bush administration repeatedly lied about the cost of the drug benefit to get it passed, and Bush himself heavily pressured reluctant conservatives to vote for the program.

Because reforming Medicare is an important part of getting health costs under control generally, Bush could have used the opportunity to develop a comprehensive health-reform plan. By not doing so, he left his party with nothing to offer as an alternative to the Obama plan. Instead, Republicans have opposed Obama's initiative while proposing nothing themselves.

In my opinion, conservative activists, who seem to believe that the louder they shout the more correct their beliefs must be, are less angry about Obama’s policies than they are about having lost the White House in 2008. They are primarily Republican Party hacks trying to overturn the election results, not representatives of a true grassroots revolt against liberal policies. If that were the case they would have been out demonstrating against the Medicare drug benefit, the Sarbanes-Oxley bill, and all the pork-barrel spending that Bush refused to veto.

Until conservatives once again hold Republicans to the same standard they hold Democrats, they will have no credibility and deserve no respect. They can start building some by admitting to themselves that Bush caused many of the problems they are protesting.

Bruce Bartlett was one of the original supply-siders, helping draft the Kemp-Roth tax bill in the 1970s. In the 1980s and 1990s, he was a leading Republican economist. He now considers himself to be a political independent. He is the author of Reaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action[/i] and[/i] Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy . His latest book, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, will be published by Palgrave Macmillan in October.

SnakeBoy
08-13-2009, 02:22 PM
Until conservatives once again hold Republicans to the same standard they hold Democrats, they will have no credibility and deserve no respect. They can start building some by admitting to themselves that Bush caused many of the problems they are protesting.


Somebody needs to inform him that republicans have been completely voted out of power in washington. I think they've been held to the same standard.

SnakeBoy
08-13-2009, 02:25 PM
The voters have given the Dems the same control that they once gave republicans and are judging what the Dems do with that power. So far they're failing badly.

101A
08-13-2009, 02:28 PM
If I remember correctly Conservatives were pissed about TARP when it happened; it's when I decided to vote for neither of the candidates, since they both supported it.

Most of the protests I have been seeing specificallly relate to health care.

doobs
08-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Sure, you can attack conservatives for their inconsistency or their hypocrisy. But that doesn't defeat their arguments.

I guess what I'm saying is this: principles are forever and pure, it's just that the people who profess to believe in the principles can be such a letdown.

jack sommerset
08-13-2009, 02:36 PM
:lol MOBS

angrydude
08-13-2009, 02:48 PM
As early as 2002, a majority of the seven-member Federal Reserve Board was Bush appointees, and by 2006 every member was a Bush appointee. While many critical decisions about monetary policy are made by the Federal Open Market Committee, the board’s position always prevails.

It doesn't matter who put who on the FED. They're all bankers and they're all looking out for the banks own interest.

AFBlue
08-13-2009, 02:50 PM
Great...another "blame" article. Just what the debate over health care needs...:rolleyes

MaNuMaNiAc
08-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Great...another "blame" article. Just what the debate over health care needs...:rolleyes

:lmao are you shitting me? That is all this forum has ever been about...

ElNono
08-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Interesting read. Thanks for the post.

Crookshanks
08-13-2009, 05:23 PM
More useless blather from those who think they know what's best for the Republican Party. I wish they'd all just switch over to being Democrats because their beliefs are more in line with liberals than conservatives.

dimsah
08-13-2009, 05:46 PM
Wouldn't being angry at Bush now be a little more misplaced since there is absolutely nothing we can do about it?

Don't know about the rest of you but I try not to get too lathered up over something I have no possibility of changing.

ChumpDumper
08-13-2009, 06:37 PM
More useless blather from those who think they know what's best for the Republican Party. I wish they'd all just switch over to being Democrats because their beliefs are more in line with liberals than conservatives.What specific conservative principles in this article did you find so distasteful?

ElNono
08-13-2009, 06:52 PM
More useless blather from those who think they know what's best for the Republican Party. I wish they'd all just switch over to being Democrats because their beliefs are more in line with liberals than conservatives.

In your opinion, what is best for the Republican Party?

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 07:46 PM
I disagree, it would take too long to point out all reasons. I'll give just two of several.

The consumer confidence was dying in this nation more than two years ago, as democrat pundits keept dowplaying the accomplishments and scaring the public with Bush Bashing. Anyone who believes consumer confidence does not have a larde effectr is real ignorant.

The democrats in congress originated the first bail out bill. Yes, President Bush could have vetoes it, but the democrats wanted it and they were coming into office, would have done it anyway. If it was a mistake, they could have stopped it and mot spend the funds not released yet.

Is Bruce Bartlett a relative of Jed Bartlett?

ElNono
08-13-2009, 08:25 PM
I disagree, it would take too long to point out all reasons. I'll give just two of several.

The consumer confidence was dying in this nation more than two years ago, as democrat pundits keept dowplaying the accomplishments and scaring the public with Bush Bashing. Anyone who believes consumer confidence does not have a larde effectr is real ignorant.

The democrats in congress originated the first bail out bill. Yes, President Bush could have vetoes it, but the democrats wanted it and they were coming into office, would have done it anyway. If it was a mistake, they could have stopped it and mot spend the funds not released yet.

Is Bruce Bartlett a relative of Jed Bartlett?

So you disagree with the conservative economist that basically engineered supply-side economics, your economic dogma?

Also, are you going to read his new book: The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward?

ChumpDumper
08-13-2009, 08:30 PM
The consumer confidence was dying in this nation more than two years ago, as democrat pundits keept dowplaying the accomplishments and scaring the public with Bush Bashing.You keep saying this.

Which pundits?

What exactly did they say that had a direct effect on consumer confidence?

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 08:32 PM
So you disagree with the conservative economist that basically engineered supply-side economics, your economic dogma?

Also, are you going to read his new book: The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward?
I disagree with where he places the real blame. President Bush was not an economic conservative, but he was dammed if he did and dammed if he didn't. If he didn't go along with and sign the legislation, he would have been blamed even more for our current economic situation than people blame him for now. Then President Obama would have signed it anyway.

Just remember, these laws originate in congress! Democrat congress!

Failure of Reananomics? OK, I understand. If it's on the internet or in a book, you agree with it.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 08:53 PM
I disagree with where he places the real blame. President Bush was not an economic conservative, but he was dammed if he did and dammed if he didn't. If he didn't go along with and sign the legislation, he would have been blamed even more for our current economic situation than people blame him for now. Then President Obama would have signed it anyway.
Just remember, these laws originate in congress! Democrat congress!


That's an interesting take. My recollection, and I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, is that Paulson was the one that asked for a blank check, and Bush actually held a press conference urging Congress to pass the bailout, saying that the economy would collapse otherwise, after the initial vote did not succeed.


Failure of Reananomics? OK, I understand. If it's on the internet or in a book, you agree with it.

I made no claims about wether I agree with the topic or not. I simply asked if you're going to read his next book, considering he was one of the original supply-siders, a 'clan' you claim to be part of.

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 09:10 PM
That's an interesting take. My recollection, and I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, is that Paulson was the one that asked for a blank check, and Bush actually held a press conference urging Congress to pass the bailout, saying that the economy would collapse otherwise, after the initial vote did not succeed.And I have said he had bad advice in the past. Still, such spending bills originate in congress. Period. It's in the constitution. Regardless who wanted the bailout, it's on them for starting the process. If President Bush had vetoes it, they would have submitted one to President Obmaba.

boutons_deux
08-13-2009, 09:19 PM
Congress didn't start shit. dubya's Goldman Paulsen did, 3 pages, give me $700B, give it to me in 7 days or my buddies on Wall St will destroy the country, and put the $700B and me beyond reach of the courts and Congress.

Extra Stout
08-13-2009, 09:26 PM
The crux of the matter for me is that I too doubt that all that many people calling themselves "conservatives" are up in arms about Obama's spending out of some principled kind of fiscal conservatism, as opposed simply to his being a Democrat and the Republicans' being out of power.

Nbadan
08-13-2009, 09:27 PM
Wouldn't being angry at Bush now be a little more misplaced since there is absolutely nothing we can do about it?

Don't know about the rest of you but I try not to get too lathered up over something I have no possibility of changing.

We should prosecute him for torture, but we won't...

Nbadan
08-13-2009, 09:31 PM
The crux of the matter for me is that I too doubt that all that many people calling themselves "conservatives" are up in arms about Obama's spending out of some principled kind of fiscal conservatism, as opposed simply to his being a Democrat and the Republicans' being out of power.


there are some, but they get drowned out by the Sarah Palin crowd...

ElNono
08-13-2009, 09:38 PM
The crux of the matter for me is that I too doubt that all that many people calling themselves "conservatives" are up in arms about Obama's spending out of some principled kind of fiscal conservatism, as opposed simply to his being a Democrat and the Republicans' being out of power.

It's unfortunate and I agree. The best conservatives could do is actually get themselves organized into a serious party again, that plays the actual role of constructive opposition. I still haven't seen an actual counter-proposal for healthcare reform from the GOP. You know, it could be 100% contrary to what's being proposed, and it might be dismissed by the democrats, but at least it would allow conservatives to align to something and actually provide something constructive. Right now, besides the bickering and moaning, there's really nothing constructive coming out of them.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 09:41 PM
And I have said he had bad advice in the past. Still, such spending bills originate in congress. Period. It's in the constitution. Regardless who wanted the bailout, it's on them for starting the process. If President Bush had vetoes it, they would have submitted one to President Obmaba.

But he did veto other laws that effectively went to Obama and Obama enacted immediately. Like the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_200 8).
So that's definitely no excuse.

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 09:53 PM
But he did veto other laws that effectively went to Obama and Obama enacted immediately. Like the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_200 8).
So that's definitely no excuse.Wrong. The propaganda out there was the bailout was time sensitive.

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 09:56 PM
It's unfortunate and I agree. The best conservatives could do is actually get themselves organized into a serious party again, that plays the actual role of constructive opposition.That's the problem. Conservatives are a 3rd party. Between the two, they support republicans as the lesser of two evils. Conservatives are a large part of the voting block for republicans, so republicans lose when they ignore conservative principles.
I still haven't seen an actual counter-proposal for healthcare reform from the GOP. You know, it could be 100% contrary to what's being proposed, and it might be dismissed by the democrats, but at least it would allow conservatives to align to something and actually provide something constructive. Right now, besides the bickering and moaning, there's really nothing constructive coming out of them.Why does their have to be a counter proposal? The problem is current regulations and laws, not the current health care system.

clambake
08-13-2009, 09:58 PM
can't you admit that bush went full throttle bailout?

why does it hurt you so bad to admit to that?

Findog
08-13-2009, 09:59 PM
Somebody needs to inform him that republicans have been completely voted out of power in washington. I think they've been held to the same standard.

Read that passage again.

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 10:02 PM
can't you admit that bush went full throttle bailout?

why does it hurt you so bad to admit to that?
Me? I can admit that. I think he made a serious mistake. I said it then. Must I repeat myself? I even helped vote republican senator Smith out of the senate for his yes vote on the package and voted for my democrat representative in 2008 because he voted against the bailout.

clambake
08-13-2009, 10:05 PM
Me? I can admit that. I think he made a serious mistake. I said it then. Must I repeat myself? I even helped vote republican senator Smith out of the senate for his yes vote on the package and voted for my democrat representative in 2008 because he voted against the bailout.

bush had to do it. you understand that, right?

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 10:12 PM
bush had to do it. you understand that, right?No he didn't, but like I said, he was dammed either way.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Wrong. The propaganda out there was the bailout was time sensitive.

Bush was the number one instigator of rushing for a vote. Here's an article from that time: LINK (http://www.boston.com/business/markets/articles/2008/09/25/bush_urges_bailout_unity/)

Maybe it will refresh your memory of who was pushing for what.

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Bush was the number one instigator of rushing for a vote. Here's an article from that time: LINK (http://www.boston.com/business/markets/articles/2008/09/25/bush_urges_bailout_unity/)

Maybe it will refresh your memory of who was pushing for what.
I don't care if he was or not. It was wrong, and I have disagree with him on that and other issues. Why do you believe I support everything he did? Please accept the fact that congress had to originate the thing for him to sign it.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 10:20 PM
Why does their have to be a counter proposal? The problem is current regulations and laws, not the current health care system.

The current health care system will be bankrupt within the next 10 years. So there's most absolutely and definitely a problem with the current system. I don't even think Republicans deny that, because the numbers are all out there for everyone to see.
So since it's completely unavoidable not to reform it somehow, I'd like to see what the fiscally conservative and free market plan is to fix it. Unfortunately, they rather spend their time pandering and sitting in their asses instead of coming up with an actual proposition.

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 10:24 PM
The current health care system will be bankrupt within the next 10 years. Only without real tort reform if litigation successfully destroy it.

So there's most absolutely and definitely a problem with the current system. I don't even think Republicans deny that, because the numbers are all out there for everyone to see.Everything they propose gets shot down, and is like a third rail. Serious tort reform is the necessary first step. Getting illegal aliens to self deprt so they aren't a burdern on our medical system is necessary too.


So since it's completely unavoidable not to reform it somehow, I'd like to see what the fiscally conservative and free market plan is to fix it. Unfortunately, they rather spend their time pandering and sitting in their asses instead of coming up with an actual proposition.
It had been explained several times in the several past years.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 10:28 PM
I don't care if he was or not. It was wrong, and I have disagree with him on that and other issues. Why do you believe I support everything he did?

I didn't claim that you did. I actually remember you being opposed to it. That's exactly why I don't understand why you take the Bush apologist position when it comes to this.


Please accept the fact that congress had to originate the thing for him to sign it.

Actually, the original 3 page draft created by Paulson was sent from the White House to lawmakers overnight on Sept 19.
Here's the original text:

LINK (http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/20/news/economy/treasury_proposal/index.htm)

So the originator in the case was the executive asking lawmakers to create a bill as close to that draft as possible.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 10:38 PM
Only without real tort reform if litigation successfully destroy it.

Tort reform involves, well, reform. Where's the tort reform bill and why aren't we hearing about it from our republican fellows at the town hall meetings?


Everything they propose gets shot down, and is like a third rail. Serious tort reform is the necessary first step. Getting illegal aliens to self deprt so they aren't a burdern on our medical system is necessary too.

Can you point me to anything they actually have proposed? You know, like an actual bill they've introduced? Talk is cheap. We pay their salaries for action, not merely talking. Plus if they had something to show, at least when it gets shot down they can claim they actually proposed something and tried to be constructive. Right now, it's all criticism and nothing else.


It had been explained several times in the several past years.

Explained is not enough. Shit, they even had full control of congress and the executive not 4 years ago, and only managed to pass Medicare Part D? Not even a single proposal to overhaul this system that's going under?

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 10:55 PM
I didn't claim that you did. I actually remember you being opposed to it. That's exactly why I don't understand why you take the Bush apologist position when it comes to this.Is making a statement acknowledging understanding an apology?

Wow... Twisted you are...

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 11:00 PM
Tort reform involves, well, reform. Where's the tort reform bill and why aren't we hearing about it from our republican fellows at the town hall meetings?I don't know what they're saying. Do you? In the past, every time it was talked about, they were shot down by propaganda and fear. The democrat pundits must protect their favored trial lawyers.

Can you point me to anything they actually have proposed? You know, like an actual bill they've introduced? If I spent enough time, I'm sure I could. I remember past attempts took place. It would take too long to find the specifics.

ElNono
08-13-2009, 11:14 PM
I don't know what they're saying. Do you? In the past, every time it was talked about, they were shot down by propaganda and fear. The democrat pundits must protect their favored trial lawyers.
If I spent enough time, I'm sure I could. I remember past attempts took place. It would take too long to find the specifics.

Well, now would be a good time. You know, so you can show all those democrat pundits how real americans fix problems with real american solutions. However, all I hear is crickets chirping...

Wild Cobra
08-13-2009, 11:22 PM
Well, now would be a good time. You know, so you can show all those democrat pundits how real americans fix problems with real american solutions. However, all I hear is crickets chirping...
Except there are maybe only a half dozen democrats that would support them and too many republicans that won't. It's been tried. Until we unelect the politics that let special interests grease their palms, there never will be a solution that truly benefits us, from either party.

Anyone who thinks government is the answer is pretty damn ignorant.

Aggie Hoopsfan
08-13-2009, 11:57 PM
The crux of the matter for me is that I too doubt that all that many people calling themselves "conservatives" are up in arms about Obama's spending out of some principled kind of fiscal conservatism, as opposed simply to his being a Democrat and the Republicans' being out of power.

I am a fiscal conservative. Bush was a fuckup, and was anything but conservative. Obama has been far far worse in his short time in power.

Thanks for attempting to speak on my behalf though.

Aggie Hoopsfan
08-13-2009, 11:59 PM
The current health care system will be bankrupt within the next 10 years. So there's most absolutely and definitely a problem with the current system. I don't even think Republicans deny that, because the numbers are all out there for everyone to see.
So since it's completely unavoidable not to reform it somehow, I'd like to see what the fiscally conservative and free market plan is to fix it. Unfortunately, they rather spend their time pandering and sitting in their asses instead of coming up with an actual proposition.

They've come up with several proposals, but none have seen the light of day with the media in the tank for the Messiah.

MaNuMaNiAc
08-14-2009, 04:58 AM
They've come up with several proposals, but none have seen the light of day with the media in the tank for the Messiah.

:lol

Then how exactly is it you know about them? Just asking

ElNono
08-14-2009, 08:11 AM
They've come up with several proposals, but none have seen the light of day with the media in the tank for the Messiah.

They don't need the media. They just need to put it on a piece of paper and present it as the official GOP bill. So guys like InsHannity can start singing that tune.

Hasn't happened, and I'm not holding my breath...

Aggie Hoopsfan
08-14-2009, 08:24 AM
:lol

Then how exactly is it you know about them? Just asking

Because I don't rely on the MSM for my news.

Shocking concept... you can go out to places that report bills and amendments online and read them. There is also local coverage over some of what the reps have proposed from their hometown district if you look for it.

Don't have time right now but will try to run some of it down this weekend.

LnGrrrR
08-14-2009, 12:05 PM
And I have said he had bad advice in the past. Still, such spending bills originate in congress. Period. It's in the constitution. Regardless who wanted the bailout, it's on them for starting the process. If President Bush had vetoes it, they would have submitted one to President Obmaba.

You're aware that Bush supported it, and that McCain did as well, right? So even if Obama wasn't elected, that bill was going to pass.

LnGrrrR
08-14-2009, 12:06 PM
It's unfortunate and I agree. The best conservatives could do is actually get themselves organized into a serious party again, that plays the actual role of constructive opposition. I still haven't seen an actual counter-proposal for healthcare reform from the GOP. You know, it could be 100% contrary to what's being proposed, and it might be dismissed by the democrats, but at least it would allow conservatives to align to something and actually provide something constructive. Right now, besides the bickering and moaning, there's really nothing constructive coming out of them.

You and I both know that, if they were to actually put out a plan, it could be criticized. Far easier to throw stones at this one, and keep the base misdirected, than to put out a policy and have it being torn apart too.

LnGrrrR
08-14-2009, 12:08 PM
That's the problem. Conservatives are a 3rd party. Between the two, they support republicans as the lesser of two evils. Conservatives are a large part of the voting block for republicans, so republicans lose when they ignore conservative principles.Why does their have to be a counter proposal? The problem is current regulations and laws, not the current health care system.

Then why not come up with a plan to get rid of current legislation and laws? Tell us what legislation they would like to cut, and the saving/benefits enacted, as well as the potential negative consequences.

LnGrrrR
08-14-2009, 12:12 PM
Also, all the whining about, "They've TRIED to fix it, really, but the evil media and Democrats won't let them!"... isn't really effective. If Republicans have a plan that's good enough, then it will find a way out. Last time I checked, there's this thing called the "internet". And on this internet, there are right-wing websites. And sometimes, when a news article gets posted to a website, like, say, the Drudge Report, it gets picked up by the TV media.

But, I mean, they ARE only Senators and representatives. What power could they possibly hold to combat the vast network of liberal evil media?

DarkReign
08-14-2009, 12:41 PM
You know, reading some of these reponses are rather ridiculous.

The RNC and DNC are not, I repeat NOT, subject to media suppression.

I know, my mind was just blown too.

Youre fucking lying, straight-faced if you think either party can be suppressed by the fucking media. Youre either lying or an idiot.

The RNC and DNC are all-powerful political vehicles in this country. What MSNBC/CNN/Fox/radio wont report, they'll post in on their webpage and take the floor of the House and Senate live! on fucking CSPAN with graphs, charts and a draft bill.

Fucking suppression...give me a god damn break...

That dumbass line may work on the tinfoil hat brigade, but try and raise your argument above the level of "The Republican Party is being suppressed! They actually have a draft Bill to address allllllllll this shit, but the media wont talk about it!!!"

Such fucking bullshit of the highest degree. Prepostorous, outlandish and juvenile to even think that line of argument would even work in this age of the internet, blogs, CSPAN, radio, newspapers, offical party websites and oh-fucking-yeah...they're elected officials of the United States.

If a fringe Consitutionalist like Ron Paul can be a media darling for 2 months, I am quite fucking confident the RNC could muster enough media nutsack long enough to push an alternative plan to any current event possible.

Ludicrous, seriously deficient thinking.

ploto
08-14-2009, 12:56 PM
Republicans to gain votes became alot more about being socially and morally conservative than about being fiscally and governmentally conservative. They have no problem with the government telling consenting adults what they can and can not do when supposedly they are for smaller government and less government intervention. They are so wrapped up in their supposed superior patriotism and higher family values that they forgot for what they are supposed to stand politically.

Wild Cobra
08-14-2009, 06:07 PM
You're aware that Bush supported it, and that McCain did as well, right? So even if Obama wasn't elected, that bill was going to pass.Here is a perfect example why I call you guys libtards! You and ElNono...

Do you remember me ever supporting this decision of President Bush and Senator McCain? If you go back, you will see I was never in favor of this and talked bad about these policies. In fact, you will see I stated I would not vote for McCain because of his liberal views. That only changed when Palin was his running mate.

Buy a clue please.

Wild Cobra
08-14-2009, 06:08 PM
Then why not come up with a plan to get rid of current legislation and laws? Tell us what legislation they would like to cut, and the saving/benefits enacted, as well as the potential negative consequences.You think that hasn't been attempted?

Wild Cobra
08-14-2009, 06:14 PM
You're aware that Bush supported it, and that McCain did as well, right? So even if Obama wasn't elected, that bill was going to pass.
Please go back and read my prior statements before the primary and general elections. You will see that one point I made that appalled other conservatives was that I would rather see Clinton or Obama win over McCain. My reason was that who ever got elected, we would have this nation in some kind of destruction mode. That liberals would do it faster, and the public would see it, swaying voters back to more conservative politicians in 2010. If McCain was elected, it would still happen. It would just be slower and unnoticed by the public at large.

Believe me, I was aware. I am rarely ignorance when it comes to politics.

ChumpDumper
08-14-2009, 06:16 PM
I am rarely ignorance when it comes to politics.All those simultaneous sig updates are going to crash the server.

Wild Cobra
08-14-2009, 06:34 PM
All those simultaneous sig updates are going to crash the server.
Chump being ignorant again...

ChumpDumper
08-14-2009, 06:55 PM
Chump being ignorant again...And you are being ignorance again. :lol

Marcus Bryant
08-15-2009, 10:20 AM
More useless blather from those who think they know what's best for the Republican Party. I wish they'd all just switch over to being Democrats because their beliefs are more in line with liberals than conservatives.

Nice. If you are dissatisfied with a GOP which consistently expands the federal government at the expense of individual liberty and whose powers that be managed to position the party to lose the two elected branches of government within two years, then you are the one who has betrayed the party, instead of the party betraying you. Great fucking logic.

But I will grant you that it shouldn't be that difficult for Republicans to shift to becoming Democrats and vice versa, for there really isn't that much of a difference between the elected officials of either side at the federal level. The present administration has engaged in a rather continuous transition from the previous administration. Even this awful nationalized insurance scheme is merely picking up where the last administration and its Medicare Part D entitlement expansion left off. The Secretary of Defense is the same as the last administration, which is rather curious given the degree to which we were told the last administration had screwed up on the military front. The Treasury Secretary continues to carry water for Wall Street, just like his predecessor.

Meanwhile the unwashed masses yell at each other in "town halls" (what a synthetic techno-democratic clusterfuck those are) and on the internets as if there is really a stark fundamental difference between the establishment of either major US political party. The joke is on us, but we're too caught up in the partisan label political circle jerk to notice.

dimsah
08-15-2009, 08:19 PM
Nice. If you are dissatisfied with a GOP which consistently expands the federal government at the expense of individual liberty and whose powers that be managed to position the party to lose the two elected branches of government within two years, then you are the one who has betrayed the party, instead of the party betraying you. Great fucking logic.

But I will grant you that it shouldn't be that difficult for Republicans to shift to becoming Democrats and vice versa, for there really isn't that much of a difference between the elected officials of either side at the federal level. The present administration has engaged in a rather continuous transition from the previous administration. Even this awful nationalized insurance scheme is merely picking up where the last administration and its Medicare Part D entitlement expansion left off. The Secretary of Defense is the same as the last administration, which is rather curious given the degree to which we were told the last administration had screwed up on the military front. The Treasury Secretary continues to carry water for Wall Street, just like his predecessor.

Meanwhile the unwashed masses yell at each other in "town halls" (what a synthetic techno-democratic clusterfuck those are) and on the internets as if there is really a stark fundamental difference between the establishment of either major US political party. The joke is on us, but we're too caught up in the partisan label political circle jerk to notice.

Good post.

Nbadan
08-16-2009, 12:10 AM
Just a few short years ago you couldn't win to be the local dog catcher if you ran as a Democrat in Tx.....things change...if your dissatisfied with your representatives then vote for someone else....this 'they are all the same' is just scape-goating..

LnGrrrR
08-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Here is a perfect example why I call you guys libtards! You and ElNono...

Do you remember me ever supporting this decision of President Bush and Senator McCain? If you go back, you will see I was never in favor of this and talked bad about these policies. In fact, you will see I stated I would not vote for McCain because of his liberal views. That only changed when Palin was his running mate.

Buy a clue please.

Hey, I'm just saying that both Obama and McCain were going to push this, so it didn't matter which President Congress sent it up to.

If Bush wanted to take a stand against it, he could have. He was a lame duck by then anyways. But he actively lobbied for it. (Now, you might not AGREE, but it's not just Obama who was for bailouts, and that's my point.)

LnGrrrR
08-17-2009, 10:35 AM
You think that hasn't been attempted?

They certainly haven't done a good job of promoting their own unified plan.

LnGrrrR
08-17-2009, 10:36 AM
Nice. If you are dissatisfied with a GOP which consistently expands the federal government at the expense of individual liberty and whose powers that be managed to position the party to lose the two elected branches of government within two years, then you are the one who has betrayed the party, instead of the party betraying you. Great fucking logic.

But I will grant you that it shouldn't be that difficult for Republicans to shift to becoming Democrats and vice versa, for there really isn't that much of a difference between the elected officials of either side at the federal level. The present administration has engaged in a rather continuous transition from the previous administration. Even this awful nationalized insurance scheme is merely picking up where the last administration and its Medicare Part D entitlement expansion left off. The Secretary of Defense is the same as the last administration, which is rather curious given the degree to which we were told the last administration had screwed up on the military front. The Treasury Secretary continues to carry water for Wall Street, just like his predecessor.

Meanwhile the unwashed masses yell at each other in "town halls" (what a synthetic techno-democratic clusterfuck those are) and on the internets as if there is really a stark fundamental difference between the establishment of either major US political party. The joke is on us, but we're too caught up in the partisan label political circle jerk to notice.

I'd say there's a difference in the people following the parties, but not the actual politicians.

Yonivore
08-17-2009, 11:53 AM
I'd say there's a difference in the people following the parties, but not the actual politicians.
Point taken.

Michael Barone (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/political_commentary/commentary_by_michael_barone/young_voters_should_take_another_look_at_obama) addresses an open letter to young people who voted for Barack Obama last November. His approach is interesting; you should read it all:


You voted, as your candidate and our president said, for Hope and Change. But I ask you to consider whether the policies that the president has proposed and in some cases pushed through really amount to that.

I ask you to examine them through the prism of a book published in 1999, when most of you were too young to vote: "The Future and Its Enemies," by Virginia Postrel (an Obama voter, too, by the way). Postrel assesses policies based not on whether they are liberal or conservative but on whether they are dynamist -- promoting or leaving room for change -- or stasist -- tending to freeze institutions and people in place.

By my reckoning, the Obama policies are more stasist than dynamist. ...

The larger point is this: You want policies that will enable you to choose your future. Obama backs policies that would let centralized authorities choose much of your future for you. Is this the hope and change you want?

LnGrrrR
08-17-2009, 01:40 PM
Not a bad article. I thought his Iran jab was a bit false though.. I think the people that want us to stay out of Iraq are the same people who want us to stay out of Iran... I could be wrong though.