Why there's no tort reform in Obamacare

[DarrinS]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/files/2009/08/Untitled-Image-1.jpg

[SonOfAGun]

lololol

[ChumpDumper]

The tort reform in Texas lowered premiums for everyone, didn't it?

[Nbadan]

...saved the insurance companies billions...

[Nbadan]

-DfwdIE5hOU

[SonOfAGun]

The tort reform in Texas lowered premiums for everyone, didn't it?

At least I have ample options compared to most now that doctors are flocking to Tejas.

[ChumpDumper]

Did you have a shortage of doctors before that?

[SonOfAGun]

Yes. A severe one.

[ChumpDumper]

Really, tell us more about it. How did your severe shortage of doctors affect your medical care?

[boutons_deux]

Did liability premiums drop for TX doctors?

Did they pass it along to patients?

What percentage annually is/was medical liability payments as function of total liability insurance premiums?

What percentage annually is/was the medical liability payments of TX's total health costs?

Of the 100K deaths/year due to avoidable medical errors, how many are in TX?

Tort reform is a right-wing red-herring, like Acorn, election fraud, death panels, ad nauseam.

Reformed torts are a huge barrier to even bringing cases to court for people maimed or killed by medical fuckups.

[baseline bum]

I don't like the idea of suing doctors because they make a mistake; you can't hold doctors to a standard of perfection that you would hold absolutely no other profession to. If a doctor routinely screws up and kills or injures his patients then he should obviously be fired and blacklisted from the profession, but suing a guy for making an honest mistake doesn't sit well with me. Unless the doctor came in drunk or it can be shown there was malicious intent, I think it's pretty shady to sue.

[angrydude]

not surprising.

[Rodriguez]

not surprising.
Nothing can stir up a plant or an idiot who acts like a plant.

[SonOfAGun]

Really, tell us more about it. How did your severe shortage of doctors affect your medical care?

It caused me great distress. It is something I would rather not share as I am still seeking counseling to overcome the obstacles I faced during this time in my life.

[redskinfan]

hello

[ChumpDumper]

It caused me great distress. It is something I would rather not share as I am still seeking counseling to overcome the obstacles I faced during this time in my life.You haven't found a counselor yet?

Still suffering from the doctor shortage.

You should get someone to look at your GI tract because you are completely full of shit.

[Yonivore]

Did you have a shortage of doctors before that?
Practices that were the target of most lawsuits were losing physicians at an alarming rate, Obstetrics and Gynecology being two of the most prominent.

Illegal aliens on the border were having trouble getting their babies delivered on this side of the Rio Grande.

[ChumpDumper]

Practices that were the target of most lawsuits were losing physicians at an alarming rate, Obstetrics and Gynecology being two of the most prominent.Quantify "alarming rate."

[Yonivore]

Quantify "alarming rate."
Sorry, not doing your research. It was a few years ago. Maybe you were too young to remember the stories.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry, I can't back up my made up bullshit and lies.

[Yonivore]

I'm going to goad Yonivore into doing my work.
My statement stands. Physicians were quitting because of their exposure to unreasonable lawsuits.

When Texas instituted tort reforms, they started flowing back into the state. In one article, I read that 7,000 physicians flowed into Texas from other states, after reform.

Refute me if you can.

[clambake]

My statement stands. Physicians were quitting because of their exposure to unreasonable lawsuits.

When Texas instituted tort reforms, they started flowing back into the state. In one article, I read that 7,000 physicians flowed into Texas from other states, after reform.

Refute me if you can.

i read that.......and i read the follow up article.

it said they weren't real doctors.

[TheProfessor]

As usual, DarrinS needs some perspective: (http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/08/obama-mccain-torts-biz-beltway-cz_df_0811torts.html)


It can hardly come as a surprise that Barack Obama, Harvard Law Class of '91, is popular with lawyers. They've given him $21 million in donations so far, compared with a measly $7 million for Republican rival John McCain.

But like all things Obama, the picture is cloudier than it first appears. Most of Obama's lawyer money came from defense firms. He got the single biggest slug of cash from Kirkland & Ellis, the Chicago law firm that represents Marlboro merchant Philip Morris and asbestos manufacturers, among others. He also co-sponsored a bill designed to cut down on malpractice litigation in 2005, and voted for the Class Action Fairness Act, a law that made it harder for trial lawyers to file some of their most lucrative cases.

He's not a tort reform advocate, but you oversimplify the issue.

[ChumpDumper]

My statement stands. Physicians were quitting because of their exposure to unreasonable lawsuits.

Refute me if you can.My statement stands. You can't prove they were leaving "at an alarming rate" as you claim.

Refute me if you can.

[boutons_deux]

What percentage of pre-TX-tort reforms suits were frivolous?

What percentage of total payouts were for frivoulous suits?

As always, the right wing uses extreme examples of 1% or 2% of all cases to fuck over the other 98% (where the real money is), slamming the court door in the victims' faces.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I don't like the idea of suing doctors because they make a mistake; you can't hold doctors to a standard of perfection that you would hold absolutely no other profession to. If a doctor routinely screws up and kills or injures his patients then he should obviously be fired and blacklisted from the profession, but suing a guy for making an honest mistake doesn't sit well with me. Unless the doctor came in drunk or it can be shown there was malicious intent, I think it's pretty shady to sue.

Good take. I feel part of the issue in all this is that doctors often order a whole slew of tests to cover their ass from malpractice suits. That's part of the problem with malpractice insurance and rising insurance costs - it's not necessarily that the person needs 26 tests and and MRI done, it's that if the doc doesn't do it and then something happens that one of those tests would have caught had it been done, the doc gets sued.

You've got to have some reform in there somewhere.

[Yonivore]

My statement stands. You can't prove they were leaving "at an alarming rate" as you claim.

Refute me if you can.
You see, you're the one that disagreed. It's your burden. Personally, I don't care if you believe it or not. I can't help if you were either too young or too disinterested to notice at the time.

[Yonivore]

What percentage of pre-TX-tort reforms suits were frivolous?

What percentage of total payouts were for frivoulous suits?

As always, the right wing uses extreme examples of 1% or 2% of all cases to fuck over the other 98% (where the real money is), slamming the court door in the victims' faces.
First, from where do your 1%, 2%, and 98% figures come?

[boutons_deux]

I pulled them out of my ass, which is vastly superior to any right-winger philosopy and "principles".

[Yonivore]

I pulled them out of my ass, which is vastly superior to any right-winger philosopy and "principles".
Whatever blows your skirt, princess.

[boutons_deux]

so no right-winger has any before/after TX-tort-reform?

Tort reform is really about reducing payouts by insurance company rackets for ALL liability cases, not just frivolous cases.

Of course, WC and Aggie come down on the side against the victims of medical malpractice.

OBL killed 3000 Americans once, medical system kills 100K every year, and most of these are kept secret by the perps.

[Yonivore]

medical system kills 100K every year, and most of these are kept secret by the perps.
I'd be interested to see how those statistics are compiled.

A lot of people show up at the hospital seriously ill or injured and, despite the most aggressive and knowledgeable and competent medical care -- they die. Are mistakes made? Sure.

We all make mistakes. Medical mistakes, unfortunately, cost lives. But, exactly what is a mistake? Is it a mistake to miss the severed femoral artery bleeding out into a fat woman's thigh while you're trying to stop the sucking chest wound? Is it a mistake to administer one drug to treat a failing organ that, unfortunately, mortally compromises the function of another you didn't know was also in bad shape?

A lot of shit gets chalked up to malpractice that isn't. People come into the hospital seriously fucked up and expect miracles. Sometimes, hell, a lot of times, the miracle doesn't happen. In fact, a lot of times, there's just too much shit going on the human body for any mortal human being to fix fast enough to stop the person from dying.

I'd still put our health care system up against anyone else's in the world. Thousands of foreigners flock to this country to get fixed. Foreign dignitaries and heads of states bring their asses to our finest medical institutions to get treated for their various ailments. When the flow starts heading across another border, I'll start worrying.

But, goddamnit, if I ever suffer serious trauma or have a catastrophic illness, I want to be in America when it happens. I stand a better chance in no other place.

[Yonivore]

Well, we're one step closer to shoving this fiasco into the trash, where it belongs...


http://www.drudgereport.com/wf.jpg
RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul)
http://www.drudgereport.com/i/logo9.gif

[ChumpDumper]

You see, you're the one that disagreed. It's your burden.You see, you're the one that made up shit. It's your burden.
Personally, I don't care if you believe it or not.Then quit whining about me. when I ask you to back up your made up shit.
I can't help if you were either too young or too disinterested to notice at the time.I can't help it if you are a lying thief; I can only point it out when it happens. It happened here.

[Yonivore]

ChumpDumper seems to be stuck on stupid.

[ChumpDumper]

Yonivore seems to be stuck on whine. If you don't care, don't whine.

[Yonivore]

You see, you're the one that made up shit. It's your burden.
I didn't make it up. No burden.


Then quit whining about me. when I ask you to back up your made up shit.
I wouldn't characterize it as "whining" but, you have a deal.


I can't help it if you are a lying thief; I can only point it out when it happens. It happened here.
Pointing it out would generally require more than saying you're pointing it out. Usually, it requires a rebuttal with facts. Something you rarely supply...you're generally content with just declaring a poster is lying or making stuff up.

[Yonivore]

Yonivore seems to be stuck on whine. If you don't care, don't whine.
Define whine.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't make it up. No burden.Back it up. Your burden.


I wouldn't characterize it as "whining" but, you have a deal.We don't, because you are still whining.


Pointing it out would generally require more than saying you're pointing it out. Usually, it requires a rebuttal with facts. Something you rarely supply...you're generally content with just declaring a poster is lying or making stuff up.I simply asked you to prove yourself. Where are your facts? You said doctors were leaving Texas at an alarming rate. I asked you to prove it. Given your history of lying, it's not an unreasonable request. Stop whining and back yourself up.

[Yonivore]

No, we have a deal because, as your profiles so honestly remarks:


ChumpDumper has nothing to say.

[Yonivore]

Now, where were we?

Oh yeah...


http://www.drudgereport.com/wf.jpg
RETREAT: TEAM OBAMA DROPS 'PUBLIC OPTION' (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul)
http://www.drudgereport.com/i/logo9.gif

[ChumpDumper]

No, we have a deal because, as your profiles so honestly remarks:So does yours, dipshit.

[ChumpDumper]

Now, where were we?

Oh yeah...It's no surprise to me. I predicted that.

And actually, where we were was you said doctors were leaving Texas at an alarming rate and I asked you to prove it.

[Yonivore]

Want to know why people don't trust Obama on Health Care Reform?

Obama's Talking About His Grandmother Again; People Who Listened Last Time Are Now "Dishonest" (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/08/obamas-talking-about-his-grandmother-again.html)


The AP (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9A3KRQG0&show_article=1) and the Sheryl Gay Stolberg of the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/health/policy/16address.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all) cover Obama's town hall on Saturday, where he told the story of his own grandmother to illustrate a point about health care. Since Obama is re-spinning the lesson he took from that experience this creates a bit of awkwardness for the Times, as we will explain (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/08/the-obama-death-panel-rumors-the-times-looks-everywhere-but-the-mirror.html). Let's also admire the courage and honesty with which they address it. From the Times:


To Promote Health Care Plan, Obama Talks About His Own Grandmother
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/sheryl_gay_stolberg/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

GRAND JUNCTION, Colo. — As President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) wages his public relations offensive to sell Americans on the need for overhauling health care, he is using a familiar tactic: trying to make the political personal by putting a human face on a complicated and sometimes abstract debate.
...

On Saturday, he added a personal story of his own, citing the death of his grandmother to push back against unsubstantiated claims that he wants to establish government “death panels” that would deny care to elderly patients.
“I just lost my grandmother last year. I know what it’s like to watch somebody you love who’s aging deteriorate, and have to struggle with that,” Mr. Obama said. “So the notion that somehow I ran for public office, or members of Congress are in this so they can go around pulling the plug on grandma? I mean, when you start making arguments like that, that’s simply dishonest.”
So on Saturday in Colorado the point of Obama's story about his grandmother was that he was opposed to any sort of government role in "pulling the plug" on her or deciding that some treatments simply didn't pass a societal cost/benefit test, and to suggest otherwise was "dishonest". "Dishonest"?

That is very much at odds with Obama told the David Leonhardt of the Times in April (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magazine/03Obama-t.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all) when he talked about his grandmother. Here was the lesson he took away from her experience back then:


THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?

I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.
So in April Obama favored some sort of government sponsored panel that would help assess treatment options with one eye on the patient's quality of life and the other eye on the public purse. Any guidelines would be voluntary, but of course, lots of people, presumably including doctors, can be persuaded to volunteer to follow a certain path if the alternative is a careful government review of all of their procedures. By way of example, plenty of doctors voluntarily limit their patients access to opioid painkillers, in order to avoid scrutiny from the DEA.

When they published the April interview the Times was aware of the implications - here is their follow-up story from May 1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/us/politics/30web-baker.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=all):


Some conservatives have cited Mr. Obama’s story to make the case that his plan to expand access to health care and reduce costs ultimately will result in rationing, of the kind that might have denied his grandmother the surgery unless she paid the bill on her own.

“To me, Obama is laying out the intellectual case for health care rationing while acknowledging the potential human costs of such a policy,” wrote Matthew Continetti on the Web site of the Weekly Standard magazine (http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/04/a_ruthless_pragmatism_1.asp). “He’s saying that, in order to contain costs, under a universal health care program his grandmother might have been denied that hip replacement, or forced to pay for it herself. This is the natural consequence of a universal policy, which would bankrupt the country without some form of rationing care.”
Fortunatley the Times also found libs ready to put a happy face on Obama's remarks:


Advocates on the other side of the debate reject the label. “I think Obama was trying to invoke the notion of tradeoffs more than rationing,” said Len Nichols, who directs the health care program at the New America Foundation, a Washington research organization. “Curative care for his grandmother was futile. Rationing is when efficacious care is denied to save money, perhaps to provide basic care to another, but nevertheless consciously denied.”
Well - Obama quite clearly talked about the hip replacement as a quality of life decision, not a "curative" treatment, said it was a tough call, said end-of-life care is a huge cost driver, and spoke in favor of a final legislative package that included "voluntary" guidelines established by government wise men to balance expense and efficacy. Denial is probably the best tactic for Obama's supporters on this one.

However, the Times has now pointed themselves into a corner - their recent faux-careful examination (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/08/the-obama-death-panel-rumors-the-times-looks-everywhere-but-the-mirror.html) of the "death panel" rumors that have dogged Obama completely failed to note Obama's own contribution to the debate in April. The Times has decreed that the notion that Obama has ever hinted at support for anything like a death panel (or cost oriented trade-offs for end-of-life care (http://healthcareorganizationalethics.blogspot.com/2009/05/president-obamas-grandmother-and-ethics.html)) is "false", despite their own past reporting to the contrary.

So what are they going to do when Obama starts talking about his grandmother and insisting that his only takeaway from that experience was that he is opposed to death panels or any sort of government advisory role in end-of-life care? Are you kidding? They are going to move on. Nothing in the latest Gay Stolberg story hints that Obama is re-spinning his grandmother's tale with a new "lesson learned" or that the folks now accused of being "dishonest" can point to Obama's own words as printed in the Times.

It's Times-world - Obama can say whatever he wants and later say whatever else he wants, then denounce the people still grappling with the previous version.

Imagine my surprise.
That's why. It's also why the mainstream media has lost all credibility, as evidenced here by The Gray Lady herself.

I know, it's a lot of words for many of you but, if you want to understand from where the opposition comes, you'd better learn to read more than on a Dick and Jane level.

[ChumpDumper]

See Dick say "government takeover."

See Jane say "death panel."

That pretty much sums up the opposition.

I didn't say it wasn't effective.

[Yonivore]

Milk Carton Democrats.

http://thedanashow.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/russ.jpg

As Larry the Cable Guy would say, "I don't care who you are, that's funny right there."

[Yonivore]

The gang over at Hot Air (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/16/who-are-your-milk-carton-politicians/) have compiled a list:


posted at 2:26 pm on August 16, 2009 by Ed Morrissey

Earlier today (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/16/granite-state-media-put-nh-congressional-delegation-on-milk-carton), I noted that New Hampshire’s media had taken notice that their Congressional delegation had gone missing during the August recess, rather than hold town-hall meetings to face their constituents about the health-care reform package. I joked that they had put Paul Hodes, Carol Shea-Porter, and Jean Shaheen on milk cartons, a reference to the admirable effort of milk producers to help find missing children. Green Room contributor Patrick Ishmael at AIP’s blog (http://www.americanissuesproject.org/blogs/aip/archive/2009/08/13/dip-dive-dodge-where-s-ike-skelton.aspx) noted that Missourians needed to put a picture of Ike Skelton on a few milk cartons (http://www.kansascity.com/news/politics/story/1379800.html), too:


The approach of Missouri represenatives to dealing with the outcry against the health care bill has run the gamut. In St. Louis, Rep. Russ Carnahan has held three disastrous public events. In Lee’s Summit, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver — no doubt influenced by the experiences of Carnahan and others — held a “tele-town hall” and a morning coffee, taking no questions from the audience, all the while insisting that “there is no health care bill” to talk about anyway.

It appears Ike Skelton has one-upped them both. He hasn’t held, and apparently might not hold, any public meetings on the matter.

About 100 people gathered outside Rep. Ike Skelton’s office in Missouri’s capital city to voice concerns about federal health care legislation.

Neither the 17-term Democratic congressman nor his staff were present at the Wednesday evening event, organized by the group Americans for Prosperity and others unhappy that Skelton hasn’t held public meetings about health care.
It seems to me that we need to start a list of Milk Carton Politicians — members of the House and Senate who go MIA when they should be meeting with their constituents to hear their concerns over the health-care overhaul, cap-and-trade, the failure of the stimulus package, and the exploding federal deficit. Who else belongs on a milk carton? Be sure to list them in the comments or send us e-mails so that we can ask the national media to find these lost souls.

Here’s what we have so far:

* Rep. Ike Skelton (D-MO)
* Rep. Paul Hodes (D-NH)
* Rep. Carol Shea-Porter (D-NH)
* Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-MO)
* Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
* Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)
* Sen. Al Franken (D-MN)
* Rep. Robert Wexler (D-FL)
* Sen. Robert Casey (D-PA)
* Rep. Allyson Schwartz (D-PA)
* Rep. Patrick Murphy (D-PA)
* Rep. Dennis Moore (D-KS)
* Sen. Mark Begich (D-AK)
* Rep. Chet Edwards (D-TX)
* Rep. Tim Bishop (D-NY)
* Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA)
* Rep. Mark Schauer (D-MI)
* Rep. Bart Stupak (D-MI)
* Rep. Bob Andrews (D-NJ)
* Rep. Suzanne Kosmas (D-FL)
* Rep. Alan Grayson (D-FL)
* Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC)
* Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ, whose constituents want a recall (http://www.svherald.com/articles/2009/08/16/news/doc4a87ce3b6ccae431705967.txt))
* Rep. Chellie Pingree (D-ME)
* Rep. Ed Pastor (D-AZ)
* Rep. Lacy Clay (D-MO)
* Rep. John Yarmouth (D-KY)
* Rep. Chris Carney (D-PA)
* Rep. Jim Cooper (D-TN)
* Rep. Mike McIntyre (D-NC)
* Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH)
* Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ)
* Rep. Melissa Bean (D-IL)
* Rep. Debbie Halverson (D-IL)
* Rep. Mel Watt (D-NC)
* Sen. Kay Hagan (D-NC)
* Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL)
* Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY)
* Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY)
* Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA)
* Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA, who will talk at UCLA about climate change)
* Rep. Bobby Bright (D-AL)
* Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT)
* Sen. Jon Tester (D-MT)
* Rep. Donald Payne (D-NJ)
* Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA)
* Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA)
* Sen. Herb Kohl (D-WI)
* Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL)
* Sen. John McCain (R-AZ)
* Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-MD)
* Rep. Leonard Lance (R-NJ)
* Rep. John F. Tierney (D-MA)
* Rep. Doris Matsui (D-CA)
* Rep. Harry Mitchell (D-AZ)
* Rep. G. Connolly (D-VA)
* Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC)
* Rep. David Price (D-NC)
* Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT)
* Rep. Norm Dicks (D-WA)
* Rep. Travis Childers (D-MS)
* Rep. Jim Oberstar (D- MN)
* Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr (D-IL)
* Rep. Mike Rogers (R-AL)
* Rep. Patrick Kennedy (D-RI)
* Sen. Jack Reed (D-RI)
* Rep. Gary Peters (D-MI)
* Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA)
* Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ)
* Sen. Roland Burris (D-IL)
* Sen. John Kerry (D-MA)
* Rep. John Olver (D-MA)
* Rep. Richard Neal (D-MA)
* Rep. Heath Shuler (D-NC)
* Rep. John Sarbanes (D-MD)
* Rep. Brad Ellsworth (D-IN)
* Rep. Melissa Bean (D-IL, who will meet people who pay $25 (http://michellemalkin.com/2009/08/16/pretty-sneaky-congresswoman-bean))
* Rep. Gary Peters (D-MI)
* Rep. Rob Andrews (D-NJ)
* Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH)
* Rep. Peter Roskam (R-IL)
* Rep. John Tanner (D-TN)
* Rep. Andre Carson (D-IN)
* Rep. John Murtha (D-PA)
* Rep. Betty Sutton (D-OH, details here (http://brainshavings.com/mt4/mt-search.cgi?blog_id=1&tag=Betty%20Sutton&limit=20))
* Rep. Jim Matheson (D-UT)
* Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX)
* Rep. Ruben Hinojosa (D-TX)
* Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX)
* Rep. Solomon Ortiz (D-TX)