Federal Govt set to Attack their competition...Insurance Companies

[SouthernFried]

If you have no fear of ever increasing governmental power...watch closely.

[Yonivore]

If you have no fear of ever increasing governmental power...watch closely.
Our president is running the executive with Czars -- and a pretty whacky group of them, at that -- that have never faced Senate confirmation and he's left the actual cabinet members as window dressing.

[hater]

The Empire Strikes Back!

Go Vader!

[boutons_deux]

But you don't fear corporate power and its ability to buy the govt actions that enrich the corps at the expense of citizens?

[Yonivore]

But you don't fear corporate power and its ability to buy the govt actions that enrich the corps at the expense of citizens?
Nope...to whatever nonsense that was.

[SouthernFried]

But you don't fear corporate power and its ability to buy the govt actions that enrich the corps at the expense of citizens?

Corporations pay to keep govt off them. Think extortion, mafia style. The govt has all the guns and power. If business don't pay enough, or try to compete with the govt...

...this attack on insurance companies will teach them. When WalMart gets that kind of power, I will fear them as much as govt now.

Watch it closely over the next months. By the end of it, with media outlets help...the insurance companies will look worse than terrorists. They will be investigated, regulated, demonized and demoralized.

This is how govt deals with, er..."competition." This is what govt abuse of power looks like.

[boutons_deux]

"They will be investigated, regulated, demonized and demoralized."

.. sounds like a great plan. It will never happen.

[SouthernFried]

"They will be investigated, regulated, demonized and demoralized."

.. sounds like a great plan.

Why?

[boutons_deux]

because, like with Repugs blocking investigation of torture, the corps own enough Congress people to block investigation of for-profit health insurance companies.

btw, I don't think they need to be investigated. We know enough already that justifies a no-profit public option to reduce insurance prices and drive the for-profit insurance companies into boutique niches where they can scam those who want to buy from them.

a national co-op might work, the Repugs will fight like hell, block any change to protect their owners in the for-profit health insurance industry. And the Vast Right-Wing Hate Media Conspiracy will lie its way to success, already well under way.

regional or state co-ops won't work because they will be crushed and co-opted by the much larger for-profit insurance companies.

[SonOfAGun]

LOL

Speak out against Obama as a citizen, get his wolf pack to dive into your personal history and ninja character assassinate yo azz

Oppose Obama's policies as a business, the IRS comes'a'knockin'

[101A]

But you don't fear corporate power and its ability to buy the govt actions that enrich the corps at the expense of citizens?


Damn you're naive.

You want to strip corps of rights - to keep them from controlling the govt. which ACTUALLY holds the power that is being manipulated.

ALL people are greedy, you idiot. WE must limit the GOVERNMENT'S power and cotrol; that way INDIVIDUALS with agendas cannot wield that power over us!!!

There will ALWAYS be powerful people who control what the govt. does; limit the govt., and you limit those people's control.

I know the insurance industry is being blamed for trying to kill this legislation; but it is pretty much bought and paid for at this point, as is Pharma ---- they are both relatively silent about a bill that a bunch of you idiot liberals think is gonna teach them a lesson; I guaranty they are gonna do just fine; otherwise we'd see LOTS of ads on TV against these things; we're not seeing them; in fact, the only ads I'm seeing are in support - think about it naive lemmings; open your closed little minds, and see that the people that brought you the housing catastrophe are engineering an encore with healthcare!

Bad Corporations!!!

bullshit.

Bad government.

[101A]

Damn you're naive.

You want to strip corps of rights - to keep them from controlling the govt. which ACTUALLY holds the power that is being manipulated.

ALL people are greedy, you idiot. WE must limit the GOVERNMENT'S power and cotrol; that way INDIVIDUALS with agendas cannot wield that power over us!!!

There will ALWAYS be powerful people who control what the govt. does; limit the govt., and you limit those people's control.

I know the insurance industry is being blamed for trying to kill this legislation; but it is pretty much bought and paid for at this point, as is Pharma ---- they are both relatively silent about a bill that a bunch of you idiot liberals think is gonna teach them a lesson; I guaranty they are gonna do just fine; otherwise we'd see LOTS of ads on TV against these things; we're not seeing them; in fact, the only ads I'm seeing are in support - think about it naive lemmings; open your closed little minds, and see that the people that brought you the housing catastrophe are engineering an encore with healthcare!

Bad Corporations!!!

bullshit.

Bad government.

I'm sorry, apparently I was wrong; the insurance company's have gotten on the wrong side of at least some in government. Based on the following, who has the REAL power:

Link (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/19/health-insurers-fear-probe-house-dems-reprisal-opposing-obamas-plan/)



Health Insurers Fear Probe By House Dems Is Reprisal for Opposing Part of Obama's Plan

Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., sent a letter warning health insurers that the House Energy and Commerce Committee is "examining executive compensation and other business practices of the health industry."


In a move some fear is a reprisal for opposing President Obama's health care plan, Democrats sent 52 letters to health insurers requesting financial records for a House committee's investigation.
Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., sent a letter warning health insurers that the House Energy and Commerce Committee is "examining executive compensation and other business practices of the health industry."
Waxman, chairman of the committee, and Stupak, chairman of the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee did not inform their Republican counterparts of their plans.
Health insurers have until Sept. 4 to provide Congress a detailed list of every employee who made over a $1 million dollars a year between 2003 and 2008. Democrats also want documents about conferences and any events held off company property as well as the types of transportation, lodging, food, entertainment and even gifts exchanged.
Raising the intimidation stakes: the Waxman letter offers insurers no explanation of what is being investigated or why.
Industry insiders fear the beginning of reprisals for anyone daring to dissent from the Obama agenda. One said it feels like a reprisal audit by the IRS.
With raucous health care town halls unfolding nationwide during the August congressional recess and polls showing increased opposition to a government-run insurance program or "public option," neither Waxman nor Stupak nor their staffs would comment on this story. But it's no secret that Democrats blame anti-reform ads on the private health insurance industry and its supporters.
Private health insurers warn that a public option could put them at a competitive disadvantage and even out of business, but they insist they support health care reform in general.
A spokesman for Stupak told The Associated Press Tuesday night that 52 letters had been sent to health insurers with $2 billion or more in annual premiums. He said letters were not dispatched to other industry groups, some of which have been airing television advertising in support of Obama's call for legislation.
But Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman for the American Health Insurance Plans, said Democrats on the panel hoped to "silence the health insurance industry and distract attention away from the fact that the American people are rejecting a government-run plan" as part of Obama's planned overhaul.
Zirkelbach said it would be up to individual companies to decide whether to turn the records over.
Spokesmen for three large insurance companies, Aetna, UnitedHealth Group Inc. and WellPoint Inc., confirmed the firms had received the letters but declined comment.

[SouthernFried]

And so it begins...

[SouthernFried]

They are the leading reason health care sucks in this nation, they produce no service or product and they take money...there are too many greedy hands in line.

Sounds like your talking about government.

[SouthernFried]

They are the leading reason health care sucks in this nation, they produce no service or product and they take money.

there are too many greedy hands in line.

Ok, I've amended my post... it still sounds like your talking about the government.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'd rather have health care services provided for money than for altruism.

[Yonivore]

V9HS8n8Y4qo

[Yonivore]

oMXUqXDK3Aw

[boutons_deux]

Expanding Medicare to cover everybody and with govt as single-payer (and single-buyer of drugs, as exists in other countries) is the perfect solution. Medicare has 4% overheads.

I read one estimate that that would reduce the for-profit scumbag, parasitical insurance companies by 70%, bankrupting quite a few.

Notice how investors bid up the for-profit insurance companies stocks when it was heard that the bill may pass without a public insurance.

[Yonivore]

Expanding Medicare to cover everybody and with govt as single-payer (and single-buyer of drugs, as exists in other countries) is the perfect solution. Medicare has 4% overheads.

I read one estimate that that would reduce the for-profit scumbag, parasitical insurance companies by 70%, bankrupting quite a few.

Notice how investors bid up the for-profit insurance companies stocks when it was heard that the bill may pass without a public insurance.
Uh, Medicare is broken and is broke. Hardly the model for an efficient or effective health care system.

[boutons_deux]

and your model is?

[antimvp]

Uh, Medicare is broken and is broke. Hardly the model for an efficient or effective health care system.

blah, blah, blah...."and really I am not repeating what a washington lobbyist has directed mindless asswipes across the country to think and say" blah, blah, blah.

[Yonivore]

and your model is?
Free Market Health Care, no more government controls on the commerce of health care; if my doctor wants to do house calls and provide care in exchange for fresh eggs, he should be able to do that. If he wants to be a "concierge" doctor in the Hamptons, like that silly new show, he should be able to do that. Go to school, get competent, receive a license to practice your trade and then, go out an do it.

Tort Reform, reduce the cost to doctor's and hospitals to actually do their jobs.

Privately-purchased a la carte Insurance (no more employer-based Group Insurance Programs), pay me a wage and let me buy my insurance; if I want only catastrophic, I only get catastrophic. If I want a $15,000.00 deductible, let me have it.

Tax-deferred/free health care savings accounts that I can continue to put money in and only use for health care expenditures. (but, if they'd just pass the Fair Tax, that wouldn't be necessary).

First four things off the top of my head.

[Yonivore]

blah, blah, blah...."and really I am not repeating what a washington lobbyist has directed mindless asswipes across the country to think and say" blah, blah, blah.
You think Medicare is fiscally sound? Who's been listening to lies? :lmao

[hope4dopes]

I'd rather have health care services provided for money than for altruism.

Here, here, ......I believe there are people who lead a life of service.....I just don't think any of them work for the goverment.

[antimvp]

I don't care about medicare, medicaid. koolaid whatever the fuck

I want a public option

[antimvp]

here, here, ......i believe there are people who lead a life of service.....i just don't think any of them work for the goverment.


d.i.d.

[Yonivore]

I don't care about medicare, medicaid. koolaid whatever the fuck

I want a public option
Yep, a 1st grader. Now, you're throwing a temper tantrum in the cereal aisle because you want Count Chocula instead of Life.

[Yonivore]

Rich Lowry writes:


The Obama team is saddled with a foundering health-care strategy. But it has a fallback plan — relying on the sheer dimwitted gullibility of the American public. How stupid do they think we are?

Stupid enough to think that a new $1 trillion health-care entitlement is just the thing to restore the country to fiscal health.

Stupid enough not to know that almost every entitlement known to man has cost more than originally estimated, with a congressional committee in 1967 underestimating by a factor of ten Medicare’s cost by 1990.

Stupid enough not to realize that it is through budget trickery — the taxes begin immediately, the spending is put off for a few years — that the program in the House shows “only” a $239 billion deficit over the first ten years.

Stupid enough not to focus on how the gap between the House plan’s revenue and spending steadily grows after the first ten years, making it a long-term budget buster.

Stupid enough to think increased preventive care will save the government money, just because Pres. Barack Obama constantly repeats it, despite all the independent studies to the contrary.

Stupid enough to believe that a program with no cost controls that can be discerned by the Congressional Budget Office will control costs.

Stupid enough not to worry that Obama’s proposed superteam of technocrats operating outside normal political controls — the so-called Independent Medicare Advisory Council — will resort to rationing when costs continue to spiral upward.

More here (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWQ3Njk0OWNlZGNhZDVmOTFiNjJmYTRkNjMxNWJjYjI=).

[boutons_deux]

"there are people who lead a life of service"

From what I read, a lot of doctors used to want to provide care, but the commercial pressure of med/grad/insternship school, paying back loans, fighting with insurance companies and the $250K overhead that averages per independent practitioner force them to be patient-flippers and fee-for-service whores, running up invoices as fast as they can. One report I read said 50% of docs wouldn't be a doctor again. Many who want to be independent, self-employed are forced into associate groups to share overheads and the staff for fighting insurance companies.

Solution? Kill fee for service, make the docs employees on comfortable salaries, and focus them of health results, and "evidence-based" medicine rather than invoices.

[antimvp]

"there are people who lead a life of service"

From what I read, a lot of doctors used to want to provide care, but the commercial pressure of med/grad/insternship school, paying back loans, fighting with insurance companies and the $250K overhead that averages per independent practitioner force them to be patient-flippers and fee-for-service whores, running up invoices as fast as they can. One report I read said 50% of docs wouldn't be a doctor again. Many who want to be independent, self-employed are forced into associate groups to share overheads and the staff for fighting insurance companies.

Solution? Kill fee for service, make the docs employees on comfortable salaries, and focus them of health results, and "evidence-based" medicine rather than invoices.


http://www.personneltoday.com/blogs/human-resources-guru/darts%20bullseye.jpg

[boutons_deux]

Free Market Health Care, no more government controls on the commerce of health care; if my doctor wants to do house calls and provide care in exchange for fresh eggs, he should be able to do that. If he wants to be a "concierge" doctor in the Hamptons, like that silly new show, he should be able to do that. Go to school, get competent, receive a license to practice your trade and then, go out an do it.

Tort Reform, reduce the cost to doctor's and hospitals to actually do their jobs.

Privately-purchased a la carte Insurance (no more employer-based Group Insurance Programs), pay me a wage and let me buy my insurance; if I want only catastrophic, I only get catastrophic. If I want a $15,000.00 deductible, let me have it.

Tax-deferred/free health care savings accounts that I can continue to put money in and only use for health care expenditures. (but, if they'd just pass the Fair Tax, that wouldn't be necessary).

First four things off the top of my head.

What a bunch of ideological, talking-point, ideological bullshit, as stinkingly rotten, dishonest, deceptive, as "principled" as ideological bullshit from Wild Goober.

aka, EVERYTHING wrong with universe is the govt's fault.

[SouthernFried]

Most things "wrong" with the universe...ARE the govt's fault.

Walmart doesn't start wars...govt's do.
Sears doesn't jail people...govt's do.
Mexico isn't corrupt because of McDonalds...the govt is corrupt.
Ford didn't massacre people in Tianimin square...the govt. did.
Best Buy doesn't confiscate 30% of your paycheck...the govt does.
The holocaust wasn't done by Wendy's...it was done by the Nazi Govt.
Gulags weren't created by Exxon...they were created by the Soviet Govt.
The killings in Waco, or Ohio (if your old enough to remember the 60's,) weren't done by Valero...the were done by govt...

5,000 years of recorded human history is out there. The more power govts have...the more they abuse it.

It's insanity to wantingly and consistently give govt more power over you.

[Cry Havoc]

Free Market Health Care, no more government controls on the commerce of health care; if my doctor wants to do house calls and provide care in exchange for fresh eggs, he should be able to do that. If he wants to be a "concierge" doctor in the Hamptons, like that silly new show, he should be able to do that. Go to school, get competent, receive a license to practice your trade and then, go out an do it.

Tort Reform, reduce the cost to doctor's and hospitals to actually do their jobs.

Privately-purchased a la carte Insurance (no more employer-based Group Insurance Programs), pay me a wage and let me buy my insurance; if I want only catastrophic, I only get catastrophic. If I want a $15,000.00 deductible, let me have it.

Tax-deferred/free health care savings accounts that I can continue to put money in and only use for health care expenditures. (but, if they'd just pass the Fair Tax, that wouldn't be necessary).

First four things off the top of my head.

Free market health care is a pipe dream and you are living in a fantasy. You cannot begin to fathom what's wrong with it, and I'm not going to bother to explain it to you, because even if I did, you'd spin my words and turn it into a I-said you-said confrontation about how I'm just a stupid liberal (I'm not) and anything I espouse will lead to socialism, exactly has every false conservative has been doing on the board since the presidential elections.

[DarrinS]

Most things "wrong" with the universe...ARE the govt's fault.

Walmart doesn't start wars...govt's do.
Sears doesn't jail people...govt's do.
Mexico isn't corrupt because of McDonalds...the govt is corrupt.
Ford didn't massacre people in Tianimin square...the govt. did.
Best Buy doesn't confiscate 30% of your paycheck...the govt does.
The holocaust wasn't done by Wendy's...it was done by the Nazi Govt.
Gulags weren't created by Exxon...they were created by the Soviet Govt.
The killings in Waco, or Ohio (if your old enough to remember the 60's,) weren't done by Valero...the were done by govt...

5,000 years of recorded human history is out there. The more power govts have...the more they abuse it.

It's insanity to wantingly and consistently give govt more power over you.



:clap

[DarrinS]

What a bunch of ideological, talking-point, ideological bullshit, as stinkingly rotten, dishonest, deceptive, "principled" as ideological bullshit from Wild Goober.

aka, EVERYTHING wrong with universe is the govt's fault.



If there were a couple hundred people in a room who were just like you, would that constitute an angry mob?

[Yonivore]

What a bunch of ideological, talking-point, ideological bullshit, as stinkingly rotten, dishonest, deceptive, "principled" as ideological bullshit from Wild Goober.

aka, EVERYTHING wrong with universe is the govt's fault.
No, but if you look back at just the last 100 years, much of what is wrong is due to liberals, progressives, or socialists...except that caused by Islamic extremists.

[Cry Havoc]

Most things "wrong" with the universe...ARE the govt's fault.

Wow. Let's just see about your quotes there, chicken.


Walmart doesn't start wars...govt's do.

You're right. They don't start wars. They just enslave and oppress people overseas to create a monopoly on getting a cheaper product. Beautiful example.


Sears doesn't jail people...govt's do.

Since Sears is a merchandising company, I fail to see the comparison here. So putting people in jail is bad now? Interesting take.



Mexico isn't corrupt because of McDonalds...the govt is corrupt.

Mexico is corrupt because they're an extremely poor country with little to no resources to export to the world at large, and the government doesn't have enough money to suppress large scale mafia warfare. You're bordering racism here.


Ford didn't massacre people in Tianimin square...the govt. did.

Again, this comparison is stupid. It's against company interests to start wars when they are making money hand over fist, but that does not mean they are treating the consumer or their workers within the bounds of human rights.

Just because a corporation would rather make money than shoot someone does not automatically make their motives pure and free of abuse.


Best Buy doesn't confiscate 30% of your paycheck...the govt does.

And then Best Buy confiscates the other 70% when we as a nation think we need 4 LCD TVs in our house and a refrigerator with a television.


The holocaust wasn't done by Wendy's...it was done by the Nazi Govt.

:lmao You're right. There has never been a case of a corporation enslaving or killing a group of people.

Do yourself a favor and read about the storied history of British Petroleum. I know, it's easy to point the finger at the government 100% of the time and blame it for every failing, but just educate yourself for once before you open your mouth. Please.


Gulags weren't created by Exxon...they were created by the Soviet Govt.

Exxon? You're bringing Exxon into this as a model for why we should trust companies/free market over government? Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez

Have a nice day, sir.


5,000 years of recorded human history is out there. The more power govts have...the more they abuse it.

No. The more power HUMANS have, the more they abuse it. This is not regulated to just governments, although making them out to be a scapegoat is a pretty popular tactic.


It's insanity to wantingly and consistently give govt more power over you.

Would paying $700 for a simple doctor's visit consist and $3000 for a couple of routine scans consist of "me having the power" in the situation? How about $300 for medication that costs pennies to make? Sure, I could refuse if I want to possibly not see 60 years old.

I love that you're using corporations as your "good side" in this argument. They are easily the most corrupt, power hungry, anti-human rights factions in existence. They care about one thing -- money and making more of it.

[Wild Cobra]

Personally, I'm all for insurance companies imploding. They are the leading reason health care sucks in this nation, they produce no service or product and they take money.

Fuck insurance companies in any way possible the way I see it (and those who support them). It's to the point that we have to completely crash this system to fix it, there are too many greedy hands in line.
They are more efficient at getting the money to the doctors than the government is at administrating things. Think it's bad now, wait till the government's doing it.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't care about medicare, medicaid. koolaid whatever the fuck

I want a public option
Then quit work and sign up for medicaid.

Actually, you might already qualify for it.

[SouthernFried]

Wow. Let's just see about your quotes there, chicken.

Well, hello to you too.

You're right. They "walmart" don't start wars.

Well, there you have it.

They just enslave and oppress people overseas to create a monopoly on getting a cheaper product.

Walmart buys a lot from China now (you probably have a few chinese products,) Walmart doesn't enslave or oppress the Chinese people any more than you do. The Chinese GOVERNMENT does.

Beautiful example.

Thank you.

Since Sears is a merchandising company, I fail to see the comparison here.

We are, and have been, comparing corportaions to govt. Sears is a corporation.

So putting people in jail is bad now? Interesting take.

Never said putting people in jail was a bad...or good idea. I said business doesn't have the power to do it...GOVT does.

Mexico is corrupt because they're an extremely poor country with little to no resources to export to the world at large, and the government doesn't have enough money to suppress large scale mafia warfare.

Mexico has TONS of resources. An oil exporting country, ariable land, huge offshore/fishing resources, larger supplies of resources than most countries and a hardworking, willing workforce. With all the resources Mexico has, there should be absolutely no reason they should be poor. They should be one of the richer countries in the world. The one thing that is holding them back...corruption at almost every level of GOVT

You're bordering racism here.

I was talking about countries and govts'. I've used many countries in my analogies. Haven't mentioned race in any of them. The fact you chose Mexico and decided to label me a racist for using that country...dunno what to say.

Again, this comparison is stupid. It's against company interests to start wars.

I am not sure how you could miss this...that is my point!

when they are making money hand over fist,

A principle I generally support.

but that does not mean they are treating the consumer or their workers within the bounds of human rights.

Well, if you think a Company is NOT "treating the consumer within the bounds of human rights" (???)...then shop somewhere else. The wonder of Free Markets allows that, choice. Try shopping somewhere else under Govt Health Care if you think they are not "treating the consumer within the bounds of human rights." Same with the way workers are treated. Workers have choices under Free Markets...workers have less choices working for the Govt. Under Govt health care...you will be working for the govt.

If you haven't figured it out, Choice = Freedom.

"People who don't like or fear Free Markets...fear Freedom itself"

Just because a corporation would rather make money than shoot someone does not automatically make their motives pure and free of abuse.

Never said anyone is "pure and free of abuse." But given 2 greedy and corrupt people, side by side...I prefer the one that "Would rather make money than shoot someone."

And then Best Buy confiscates the other 70% when we as a nation think we need 4 LCD TVs in our house and a refrigerator with a television.

Do you consider buying something you want or need...confiscation? I think we may have 2 different definitions here.

Exxon? You're bringing Exxon into this as a model for why we should trust companies/free market over government? Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez

Exxon had an oil spill. Do you realize the biggest polluter in the US...is the US govt? Do you even know about all the govt pollution going on? We know all about Exxons accident...do you know about the govts? Who is more trustworthy? Do you think the govt is more trustworthy then Exxon?

Have a nice day, sir.

Thanks, you too.

No. The more power HUMANS have, the more they abuse it. This is not regulated to just governments, although making them out to be a scapegoat is a pretty popular tactic.

If it's "not regulated to just govts." What entities have more power than govts?

Would paying $700 for a simple doctor's visit consist and $3000 for a couple of routine scans consist of "me having the power" in the situation? How about $300 for medication that costs pennies to make? Sure, I could refuse if I want to possibly not see 60 years old.

In the govt option, you won't even have the freedom to "refuse." Like car insurance now, it will be illegal to not have it..."for your own good, of course."

If you don't like prices, what is the best, most tried and true method throughout history...to keep prices lower. Increased competion...not less. The govt intrusion in the Health care marketplace is the 1 reason prices have escalated. Wage and price controls don't work...we tried them in the 70's under Nixon. Govt interference into marketplaces distorts them. Govt's don't know what they are doing...so screw up anything to do with marketplaces and competetion.

Govt Interference ALWAYS increases prices and costs....always.

I love that you're using corporations as your "good side" in this argument. They are easily the most corrupt, power hungry, anti-human rights factions in existence. They care about one thing -- money and making more of it.

If you truely believe business's are the "most corrupt, power hungry, anti-human rights factions in existence," after 5000 years of human history showing what govts do to each other and to their people...there is nothing more I can say except...Go Spurs!

Oops, Spurs are a corporation too...my bad