Stealquille O'Neal

[Findog]

It's not a career high, but it sure as hell isn't a number you should be letting JJ Barea get.

Tell the Spurs that. When are people gonna learn that the little guy can put the ball in the basket?

[kwamay_brown54]

Whose a better defender at this point Derek Fisher or Steve Nash, personally I'll take the Fishmen.

[Findog]

Whose a better defender at this point Derek Fisher or Steve Nash, personally I'll take the Fishmen.

Who's a better player at this point? Derek Fisher or Steve Nash? Personally, I'll take the Canadian.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Whose a better defender at this point Derek Fisher or Steve Nash, personally I'll take the Fishmen.


I'd take Fisher. There's no way Billups has that sub par series with Nash guarding him.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

better player = Nash
better defender = Fisher

[Findog]

Anybody post or read the boards at Dallasbasketball.com?

DOK: Steve Nash as TMOGE: Dirk Nowitzki

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The difference is Dirk never campaigned to get teammates traded and even with his athletic limitations is a decent defender.

[Steve_Nash]

DoK is a faggot.

[Findog]

The difference is Dirk never campaigned to get teammates traded and even with his athletic limitations is a decent defender.

No offense or anything, it just seems like something personal with you when it comes to Nash.

[Ghazi]

2 time MVP

[23LeBronJames23]

DoK is a faggot.

[Findog]

No, the team was full of people who didn't play hard. Everyone is assuming I only blame Nash, and they're wrong.

Nash is the only guy you dog constantly.

[Findog]

My guess is if Nash was traded for a real leader like Chauncey Billups, Amare would somewhat become a more complete player.

That's more of a dig at Amare than it is Nash. Amare should take it upon himself to get better.

[Findog]

We're kinda going off on a tangent here, but during that game Dirk was being guarded by Matt Barnes, it's not like that's a bad matchup for Dirk.

Dirk got 28 on 10-12 shooting that day. The Mavs shot 60% from the floor that game, so why single out only Nash's performance?

[Findog]

The difference is Dirk never campaigned to get teammates traded and even with his athletic limitations is a decent defender.

The Mavs cater to their franchise player just as much as the Suns do with theirs. Why do you think Avery is no longer our coach and Devin is in New Jersey?

[vicphoenix13]

Nash gets more criticism regarding his defense than any other star player in the NBA. He isn't a good defender but the haters only focus on him. News flash, there's alot of star players who don't play good defense.

[jacobdrj]

Nash gets more criticism regarding his defense than any other star player in the NBA. He isn't a good defender but the haters only focus on him. News flash, there's alot of star players who don't play good defense.

And most of them were not handed 2 MVPs, and therefore deserve less criticism for over hyping someone.

Show me another MVP with as crappy of a defense as Steve Nash and I'll show you an over hyped player.

[resistanze]

Man, I might've been considered a Nash-hater until DoK came along. :lol

The only thing I had problems with were his ridiculous back-2-back MVPs.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash deserved those MVP's. I don't like how people think an MVP won in 2006 has any relevance to the current Suns team, but he was the MVP those two seasons.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash is the only guy you dog constantly.


From when I started posting to his injury, I was bad mouthing Amare a lot more than Nash. I also bad mouth Nash cause every other Phoenix fan seems to think he's above criticism, there's no need to bad mouth Amare anymore when everyone knows he's lazy and selfish.

[resistanze]

Nash deserved those MVP's. I don't like how people think an MVP won in 2006 has any relevance to the current Suns team, but he was the MVP those two seasons.

I find it mind-boggling you can have such a problem with Nash in the period after his MVPs. What exactly about Nash has changed since that point that repulses you? Did he play defense in those 2 MVP years?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Did he play defense in those 2 MVP years?


Yes, he actually did. From 2005-2007, he tried his best on defense. He rarely ball hawked and he at least tried to make the best decision about whether to go over/under a screen.

After the 2007 season though, he began to make less and less of an effort. Before the Shaq trade that year, D'antoni had Marion and Amare defending the perimeter switching on pick and rolls more and more in order to maintain what had been a strong perimeter defense as long as he'd been coach, it did just that, but it made the Suns even more vulnerable on the offensive glass and in the paint than they already were.

That is what bugs me about Nash, I've seen stretches where he plays respectable defense. DPG is 100% right he's never going to be a consistently good defender, but that doesn't justify his unpredictable ball hawking habit on defense.

[mingus]

dick move by Shaq.

it became clear a long time ago that he has been the main, if not lone, instigator of every conflict he's in, at first because of his self-entitlement, but now because he's not the basketball player that he once was and will say anything to be talked about. his talking game has aptly substituted for his baskebtall game as far as the attention he's getting for it goes.

i'm soooo sick of hearing about this guy.

[Stringer_Bell]

Leave the Black Spielberg alone, man.
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imdb.com%2Fname%2Fnm0000229%2 F&ei=YeqNSqmAOYGxmAf75uGcDA&usg=AFQjCNEtpKvPZYzG529DxIGFEuvB-YKBEQ)

[pauls931]

Ima guess this story is bullshit to a certain extent. AZCentral will take advantage of any opportunity to sabotage Shaq and make Nash look like the Knight in shining armor.

Bash Shaq, not back to bashing nash. Make up your mind waffle boy!

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bash Shaq, not back to bashing nash. Make up your mind waffle boy!


Why does bashing one mean I have to like the other? Why can't I think both of them are self-centered assholes?

[cobbler]

Explain how it's KARMA? Was Tim Thomas supposed to intentionally miss the shot because he was playing the Lakers? This is kinda crap that pisses me off about Laker fans, they act like any team with the audacity to beat them in the playoffs committed some evil sin.

It is clearly written in the NBA bible that anything less that a Laker championship is sacrilege. Geeeeeeeez I would have thought you knew that by now.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It is clearly written in the NBA bible that anything less that a Laker championship is sacrilege. Geeeeeeeez I would have thought you knew that by now.


That's got nothing to the do with my post.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's more of a dig at Amare than it is Nash. Amare should take it upon himself to get better.


That wasn't your original point. You said, "If Carmelo is capable of developing his overall game, then Amare sure as hell is," and the problem there is Melo didn't get better on his own, he needed Billups' leadership to hold his hand.

Amare being unable to improve the intangibles of his game is a completely different issue.

[Findog]

That wasn't your original point. You said, "If Carmelo is capable of developing his overall game, then Amare sure as hell is," and the problem there is Melo didn't get better on his own, he needed Billups' leadership to hold his hand.

I don't buy that premise. My point is that Amare shouldn't need a veteran mentor to become a more complete player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My point is that Amare shouldn't need a veteran mentor to become a more complete player.


Why are you arguing with me like I'm some huge ass Amare fan?

[Findog]

Why are you arguing with me like I'm some huge ass Amare fan?

If I read your original argument correctly, you said Chauncey Billups could get Amare to hustle and play D better than Nash could.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Findog, I'll repeat this in a different way. In order for an argument or disagreement to occur, 2 people have to disagree. 9 out of every 10 Suns fans at this point agree Amare is lazy, selfish, and stupid. 999 out of every 1000 Suns fans think the same thing about J-Rich now. There's no point in repeating an opinion about those two that everyone else agrees with.

If a bunch of people were out there calling Jason Richardson a hard working unselfish great team leader, I'd be whining just as much about him as I do about Nash.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If I read your original argument correctly, you said Chauncey Billups could get Amare to hustle and play D better than Nash could.


You don't think playing with Billups instead of Nash would make Amare a better defender?

[Findog]

You don't think playing with Billups instead of Nash would make Amare a better defender?

Impossible to say. I think Billups is probably the biggest reason the Nuggets went from the 8th to 2nd seed, but I've been reading up on the 08 Nuggets, and I think there are several factors for their improvement:

- Camby's departure opened up more PT for Nene, who is better and managed to stay healthy

- Birdman filled Camby's role at a fraction of the price

- Karl and the coaching staff made a conscious decision to place more emphasis on defense instead of trying to outscore other teams

- They signed Dahntay Jones to be a Bowen-like pest

- The Iverson trade was of course part of that effort to overhaul the D

- Kenyon Martin had butted heads with Karl, but they came to some sort of understanding and he made more of a commitment to playing unselfishly

- JR Smith is still cocky and still takes some bad shots, but I saw him make more effort on D.

I think all of those things helped Carmelo become a more complete player. The Nuggets entire organization made a conscious effort to change the culture. Billups was part of that, but by no means was he the only reason they changed for the better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The one thing we can all learn from this thread:

No matter how good or bad Nash is, his greatest achievement was dismantling the gargantuan powerhouse 2006 Lakers.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think all of those things helped Carmelo become a more complete player. The Nuggets entire organization made a conscious effort to change the culture.


And they wouldn't have been able to change the culture if a ball hawking moron who plays self-serving defense was still starting at PG.

[Culburn369]

The one thing we can all learn from this thread:

No matter how good or bad Nash is, his greatest achievement was dismantling the gargantuan powerhouse 2006 Lakers.

Yes, he always settled.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And if you were wondering why I'm so pissed off and frustrated, it's cause I want the team to make a dedicated effort to change the culture, instead they're doing just the opposite by extending Nash and Alvin "I start Matt Barnes at power forward" Gentry.

[Culburn369]

"The Nuggets entire organization made a conscious effort to change the culture."

Please. Two months ago Vs. the Lakers they acted like complete jackasses, Billups included. Grinnin', skinnin', laughin', muggin', trippin'...though after the trippin' the other 'ins' were reduced significantly. It reminded one of how the Suns acted Vs. the Lakers in '06.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

"The Nuggets entire organization made a conscious effort to change the culture."

Please. Two months ago Vs. the Lakers they acted like complete jackasses, Billups included. Grinnin', skinnin', laughin', muggin', trippin'...though after the trippin' the other 'ins' were reduced significantly. It reminded one of how the Suns acted Vs. the Lakers in '06.


No one on the Suns ever killed their friend in a car accident.

And no matter how cocky, undisciplined and stupid they acted, the fact is they were a lot less cocky, a lot more disciplined, and a lot less dumb than they were a year ago.

[Findog]

"The Nuggets entire organization made a conscious effort to change the culture."

Please. Two months ago Vs. the Lakers they acted like complete jackasses, Billups included. Grinnin', skinnin', laughin', muggin', trippin'...though after the trippin' the other 'ins' were reduced significantly. It reminded one of how the Suns acted Vs. the Lakers in '06.

They went from the 8th seed to the 2nd, 50 wins to 54. I didn't say they became champions; I said they became better on defense and a better team overall. You can't dispute that. They went from meekly getting swept by LA to extending them to 6 games.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The 2009 Nuggets would get swept by the 2006 Lakers.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They went from the 8th seed to the 2nd, 50 wins to 54. I didn't say they became champions; I said they became better on defense and a better team overall. You can't dispute that. They went from meekly getting swept by LA to extending them to 6 games.


Any team that shows any sort of emotion when playing LA is full of arrogant, cocky thugs who will have bad KARMA for being happy when they play well against LA. One of the many lessons this thread has enlightened us with.

[21_Blessings]

Why do you hate white people DOK? I remember that one thread where you were shitting all over Rubio and white euros in general and you happen to despise Steve Nash more than me somehow despite being a Suns fan.

[vicphoenix13]

And most of them were not handed 2 MVPs, and therefore deserve less criticism for over hyping someone.

Show me another MVP with as crappy of a defense as Steve Nash and I'll show you an over hyped player.


Iverson anyone. Notice how much better Denver got when he left. But his defense will never get the criticism that Nash's does.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Why do you hate white people DOK?


I hate how people automatically assume all white players are hard working, competitive players. There are lazy white players just like there are lazy black players.

[polysylab1k]

I hate how people automatically assume all white players are hard working, competitive players. There are lazy white players just like there are lazy black players.
One white play working lazily is more than enough to deceive you that the white players are generally lazy, as the white players are in underwhelming minority in NBA and the names of white players you can think of are quite calculable even with a single hand. Peja is white and works lazily, but he is himself only. Generally the white players are hardworking and smart like Dirk and JJB, and Kidd as well when he's considered white.

[Culburn369]

No one on the Suns ever killed their friend in a car accident.

Perhaps, but, Mustaf contracted his best friend to murder the mother of his child.

[Culburn369]

Any team that shows any sort of emotion when playing LA is full of arrogant, cocky thugs who will have bad KARMA for being happy when they play well against LA. One of the many lessons this thread has enlightened us with.

I got no problem with emotion, but, the Nuggets acted like jagoffs during that series....same with the Suns. I realize it's the Kobe factor, but, tough shit. It was good to see even Billups stoop to it, get down into the shit with his fellow Nugs. And Bell, he's never been the same since he assaulted Kobe. Just a shell since that very day. Blew his entire wad.

Neither the Nuggets nor the Suns benefited whatsoever from their nefarious actions.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I got no problem with emotion, but, the Nuggets acted like jagoffs during that series....same with the Suns. I realize it's the Kobe factor, but, tough shit. It was good to see even Billups stoop to it, get down into the shit with his fellow Nugs. And Bell, he's never been the same since he assaulted Kobe. Just a shell since that very day. Blew his entire wad.

Neither the Nuggets nor the Suns benefited whatsoever from their nefarious actions.


I think Laker fans have created their own religion and bible that says god is a die hard Laker fan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

One white play working lazily is more than enough to deceive you that the white players are generally lazy, as the white players are in underwhelming minority in NBA and the names of white players you can think of are quite calculable even with a single hand. Peja is white and works lazily, but he is himself only. Generally the white players are hardworking and smart like Dirk and JJB, and Kidd as well when he's considered white.


I never said all white players are lazy, I said being white doesn't automatically mean so and so is a hard working, gritty, do-whatever-it-takes-to-win-team-first competitor. When the Suns drafted Robin Lopez everyone assumed his game was as polished as it could be and he would add toughness down low, and he did anything but that.

Everyone was enamored with Joe Alexander because he was supposed to have crazy athleticism but also have that great "white player work ethic". It turns out he is athletic, but he's lazy as shit and does nothing to improve his game.

[z0sa]

Umm where are you getting these "white guy work ethic" quotes from, dok? Because I'm unaware of any sports journalist or even most players that would take, or touch with a 15foot pole, that angle. I believe most are positive your work ethic has nothing to do with your skin color and don't even ponder the idea.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Umm where are you getting these "white guy work ethic" quotes from, dok? Because I'm unaware of any sports journalist or even most players that would take, or touch with a 15foot pole, that angle. I believe most are positive your work ethic has nothing to do with your skin color and don't even ponder the idea.


Of course no one comes out and says it, but it's clearly implied a lot white players have a way better work ethic than black players and it's also implied they are always team first players.

Has the media ever gone after a white player for tearing a locker room apart?

Has the media ever attacked a white player for not working hard enough?

[Culburn369]

Of course no one comes out and says it, but it's clearly implied a lot white players have a way better work ethic than black players and it's also implied they are always team first players.

Has the media ever gone after a white player for tearing a locker room apart?

Has the media ever attacked a white player for not working hard enough?

DUNCAN is correct...it's code.

But, black players get their hand downs as well.

Media uses both races to "sell newspapers" and they do it splendidly.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But, black players get their hand downs as well.


This is true, I'm not saying black players are always treated unfairly. I'm just talking about white players.

[Culburn369]

Race baiting has become a cottage industry in this country. It drives people and sells just about anything you aim it to sell.

[SenorSpur]

DoK,
By now, I know and understand that you aren't a Nash fan at all, but in this situation, even you would be hard pressed to give the Big Cactus an "out" on this one. If this story is true, Shaq comes off as a big ol' douchebag.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK,
By now, I know and understand that you aren't a Nash fan at all, but in this situation, even you would be hard pressed to give the Big Cactus an "out" on this one. If this story is true, Shaq comes off as a big ol' douchebag.

What are you saying? Are you saying teams are supposed to make roster decisions based on which players come up with reality TV show ideas and which players are posers who just copy reality TV show ideas.........I can't believe I thought, this entire time, that teams are supposed to make roster decisions based off what improves their ability to win basketball games......forgive my sophomoric mistake.

[rAm]

He's saying to give it a rest. You suck, your team sucks, Nash sucks, Nash's reality show would have sucked, and you can go blow Shaq's meat pole.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

your team sucks, Nash sucks, Nash's reality show would have sucked


Thanks for telling me what I already know.

[rAm]

np

[DPG21920]

Dude, locker rooms are part of building a good team. If a guy is a douche, even if he is a good player, it can be a negative thing. Addition by subtraction.

So basically, Shaq can steal ideas, sleep with wives and no one should care or say anything bc he makes the team "better"?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Addition by subtraction.

So now you're telling me the Cleveland trade will make the Suns a better team?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So basically, Shaq can steal ideas, sleep with wives and no one should care or say anything bc he makes the team "better"?

Idk what the deal is with the wife cheating thing, but it's irrelevant to the Suns.

And yes. Nash plays for a team, he should do what is best for the team. If he's mad that he's not famous enough to star in the reality TV show he came up with, he should swallow his ego and recognize he needs to do what's best for the team, not what's best for him.

Are you seriously trying to tell me I shouldn't be mad at Nash because he put himself before the team and was too petty to let it go? I have a hard time believing you'd be OK with a player on the your favorite team acting this petty.

[DPG21920]

You act like locker room chemistry is not part of building a team. You have to be able to trust your teammates.

[DPG21920]

So now you're telling me the Cleveland trade will make the Suns a better team?

They did not even make the playoffs last year. Cannot get worse than that.

[Findog]

Idk what the deal is with the wife cheating thing, but it's irrelevant to the Suns.

And yes. Nash plays for a team, he should do what is best for the team. If he's mad that he's not famous enough to star in the reality TV show he came up with, he should swallow his ego and recognize he needs to do what's best for the team, not what's best for him.

Are you seriously trying to tell me I shouldn't be mad at Nash because he put himself before the team and was too petty to let it go? I have a hard time believing you'd be OK with a player on the your favorite team acting this petty.

How did Nash's actions negatively affect the team? He got compensation and an executive producer credit, so it sounds like his grievance was not without merit.

All I know is that guys have been clamoring to play with Steve Nash ever since he emerged as a top PG. KG among others wanted to go to Phoenix. O'Neal leaves a trail of broken relationships in his wake. You tell me who was more likely to generate resentment and hard feelings among teammates.

I get that you want the Suns to get on with a necessary rebuilding job, but what was Steve Nash supposed to do? Take less money to go elsewhere? This was his last chance at a contract and he took the highest offer. You would do the same in his shoes.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They did not even make the playoffs last year. Cannot get worse than that.


I didn't ask if they'd be worse, I asked if you think swapping out Shaquille O'Neal for Robin Lopez will make the Suns a better team.

[Findog]

I didn't ask if they'd be worse, I asked if you think swapping out Shaquille O'Neal for Robin Lopez will make the Suns a better team.

If they win 47 games this year, will you agree the 09-10 Suns were better than the 08-09 Suns, regardless of roster composition?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I get that you want the Suns to get on with a necessary rebuilding job, but what was Steve Nash supposed to do? Take less money to go elsewhere? This was his last chance at a contract and he took the highest offer. You would do the same in his shoes.


Actually I wouldn't. If I already had more money than I'd possibly ever need, I'd be much more concerned with winning that ring than finding the biggest contract I could find. Then again, I'd never say during an interview I don't care if I win a championship or not.

[Findog]

Actually I wouldn't. If I already had more money than I'd possibly ever need, I'd be much more concerned with winning that ring than finding the biggest contract I could find.

There is a rich history of people expressing one preference in hypothetical scenarios and then doing something different when confronted with real-world choices.

How much is a ring really worth if he has to go pull a Malone and Payton and try to do it as a role player on a powerhouse team in the twilight of his career? I know that Dirk would kill himself trying to win a championship with Dallas, but he's also said many times that winning one with another team wouldn't mean nearly as much to him.


Then again, I'd never say during an interview I don't care if I win a championship or not.


In the context of that interview with Wilbon, he said he didn't need a ring to validate his career.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If they win 47 games this year, will you agree the 09-10 Suns were better than the 08-09 Suns, regardless of roster composition?


Yes, but if they do win 47 games, it'll be because Amare stayed healthy and because Gentry is leaps and bounds better than Terry Porter. it won't be because Robin Lopez gave them something Shaq didn't.

[DPG21920]

I didn't ask if they'd be worse, I asked if you think swapping out Shaquille O'Neal for Robin Lopez will make the Suns a better team.

Too much simplification. The Shaq move will have benefits besides immediately.Not to mention that this is about winning a title, so from that regard there was nothing the Suns could to, so the trade does not make them worse.

Once you miss the playoffs, you are lumped into one group.

[Findog]

Yes, but if they do win 47 games, it'll be because Amare stayed healthy and because Gentry is leaps and bounds better than Terry Porter. it won't be because Robin Lopez gave them something Shaq didn't.

There's also a school of thought that Shaq got his touches at the expense of the Suns running a more efficient offense. In his prime he was a 30/15 guy. What did he do last year, 17/9 while not being able to guard the p'n'r? Of course even at his old age he's much better than RL, but I wouldn't at all be shocked this year if they are a much better team w/o Shaq.

[DPG21920]

Yes, but if they do win 47 games, it'll be because Amare stayed healthy and because Gentry is leaps and bounds better than Terry Porter. it won't be because Robin Lopez gave them something Shaq didn't.

Not the point. You cannot take and give credit as you please. If they moved Shaq, and they are better, the question is answered, whether you like it or not.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

How much is a ring really worth if he has to go pull a Malone and Payton and try to do it as a role player on a powerhouse team in the twilight of his career?


In my mind, it would mean a lot, but I'm probably in the minority there. I would want it to convince myself I was capable of playing a certain role on a team that won it all. I would want to retire knowing I'm not a player who's ego ruined his chance to ever win a championship That would change if I went from doing what Payton and Malone did to doing what Kevin Willis and Robert Parish did with the Bulls, at that point I'd call it a career.

[Findog]

In my mind, it would mean a lot, but I'm probably in the minority there. I would want it to convince myself I was capable of playing a certain role on a team that won it all. I would want to retire knowing I'm not a player who's ego ruined his chance to ever win a championship That would change if I went from doing what Payton and Malone did to doing what Kevin Willis and Robert Parish did with the Bulls, at that point I'd call it a career.

I think Nash at this point in his career could be a dynamite 6th man for a title team. He doesn't actually have to sign with Boston or Orlando to prove that point. I'm sure he'd much rather try to win one with PHX than anywhere else.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not the point. You cannot take and give credit as you please.


When did I ever give credit to Shaq?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think Nash at this point in his career could be a dynamite 6th man for a title team. He doesn't actually have to sign with Boston or Orlando to prove that point. I'm sure he'd much rather try to win one with PHX than anywhere else.

We both know he didn't sign that extension to win a title in Phoenix.

And in my opinion, it goes beyond Nash proving he's good enough to be the 6th man on a title team. Obviously he's good enough to be that. My question is whether he's enough of a team first player who is willing to swallow his pride and take a lesser role.

[DPG21920]

When did I ever give credit to Shaq?

Are you not saying the team is better with Shaq?

[DPG21920]

We both know he didn't sign that extension to win a title in Phoenix.

And in my opinion, it goes beyond Nash proving he's good enough to be the 6th man on a title team. Obviously he's good enough to be that. My question is whether he's enough of a team first player who is willing to swallow his pride and take a lesser role.

What I do not understand is why you seemingly blame Nash. Obviously, the Suns thought he was worth that much. They did not have to offer that contract, and they could have told him that they want him to take a lesser role.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Are you not saying the team is better with Shaq?

I'm saying if there was a possible lab experiment to conduct where independent variable was Shaq being on/off the team, the dependent variable was the team's record, with all other variables being set stone so Shaq's presence/absence is the only thing that changes, the team's record would be worse when Shaq was off the team.

When there are factors such as Amare's health, coaching, players who got better with experience/worse with age, there's no way to know what would have caused the Suns impovement/regression from their record a year ago.

If Amare misses the entire season with a career ending eye injury and the Suns win 30 games, will you admit to me Shaq made the team better?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

the Suns thought he was worth that much.


The Suns also thought Robin Lopez was better than his brother and that Goran Dragic is better than Russell Westbrook.

[DPG21920]

Well it is a front office problem, not a Nash one.

[DPG21920]

I'm saying if there was a possible lab experiment to conduct where independent variable was Shaq being on/off the team, the dependent variable was the team's record, with all other variables being set stone so Shaq's presence/absence is the only thing that changes, the team's record would be worse when Shaq was off the team.

When there are factors such as Amare's health, coaching, players who got better with experience/worse with age, there's no way to know what would have caused the Suns impovement/regression from their record a year ago.

If Amare misses the entire season with a career ending eye injury and the Suns win 30 games, will you admit to me Shaq made the team better?

Well then how can you argue anything with regards to Shaq vs Nash. There are no labs and every thing you bitch about has multiple variables.

Use your head.

[BeeGee]

Shaq cause contraversy with a teammate? BLASPHEMY.

[pauls931]

LMAO, this is one long train wreck.

[manufan10]

Q: Have you ever tried out the carts at Ikea? All four wheels turn, and the floors have practically been buffed with a Zamboni. I feel like Tony freakin Hawk hitting 720s in the pillow aisle. This needs to be an X-Games event.
-- Brian, Eugene, Ore.
SG: You just broached on an idea that's going to be the linchpin of my campaign to take over ESPN6: The Self-Created Olympics. For instance, Brian just created his own event -- the Ikea 200-Meter Aisle Dash -- so we head down to an Ikea and he challenges the other customers to beat him in this event. My event (as I have mentioned many times) would be a little like the Long Ball Golf Challenge, only it would be throwing tennis balls down a narrow sidewalk with those plastic tennis ball throwers that they sell in Petco. Not to sound like Mayor Drago, but I cannot be defeated in this event and I WOULD break you. Everyone has one dumb fake sport that they excel in, right? It's a great idea and I can't wait for Shaq to steal it and make me an executive producer well after the fact.


:lmao

[Chieflion]

The Suns also thought Robin Lopez was better than his brother and that Goran Dragic is better than Russell Westbrook.
You finally admitted it.