Stealquille O'Neal

[Findog]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/2009/08/19/20090819spt-boivinshaq.html

The most entertaining part of the new reality show, "Shaq Vs."? The credits.

Tuesday's debut, which featured Shaquille O'Neal taking on Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger in football, was a tad long and a bit contrived. It became decidedly more interesting, though, when the credits rolled and this name popped up as one of the executive producers:

Steve Nash.

There's an interesting back story here, one that explains in part some of the fractured relationships that defined the Suns' struggles last season.

O'Neal stole Nash's idea.

Shortly after O'Neal was traded to the Suns in February 2008, Nash mentioned to his new teammate a reality show he was pursuing. It would feature the Suns point guard taking on professional athletes in their own sport.

The topic didn't come up again until early in the 2008-09 season, when O'Neal boarded the Suns bus and told the team he would be starring in a new reality show in which he would be taking on, you got it, professional athletes in their own sport.

"You mean the idea you stole from me?" one Suns representative said he heard Nash say.

Nash eventually sought out an entertainment lawyer, according to sources, which is why he now has an executive-producer credit and the compensation that comes with it.

When reached Wednesday, Nash would not confirm the story.

"We collaborated on parts of the show," he said. "I support him 100 percent. I thought the first episode was a fantastic episode, and I can't wait for the next one."

That's something you would expect Nash to say. He often has played the role of locker-room peacemaker. He is known as a teammate who diffuses tough situations before they escalate.

In reality, a source close to Nash said, "Steve was pissed. He couldn't believe Shaq's lack of integrity."

The experience set the tone for some shaky chemistry on the court. Off it, Nash found himself in a difficult situation, trying to co-exist with a teammate who had blindsided him.

"He's moved on," the source said. "He really does want the show to succeed."

Calls made to O'Neal's representatives were not returned.

Being a teammate of O'Neal's is a bit like falling into the rabbit hole.

Several years ago, when O'Neal played for Miami, he referred to Nash's back-to-back MVP awards as "tainted." He later back-pedaled.

The 2008-09 season was trying from the start. The team struggled under new coach Terry Porter's deliberate system. In December, the Suns traded one of Nash's best friends, Raja Bell, with Boris Diaw, to Charlotte for Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley.

During the All-Star break, they fired Porter and replaced him with assistant Alvin Gentry, who steered the Suns back to their up-tempo ways. Several days after Gentry took over, All-Star power forward Amaré Stoudemire underwent season-ending surgery to repair a detached retina.

The Suns were out of the playoffs for the first time in five years.

Here's a hunch that when the Suns decided to trade O'Neal to Cleveland in late June, it helped Nash arrive at his decision to sign an extension with the Suns a month later.

Here's a hunch that chemistry on this team will be better in the 2009-10 season, too.

Nash enjoys playing for Gentry and is happy his friend Grant Hill is back. He'll have his pick-and-roll mate, Stoudemire, and an offense that should be more fluid.

Nash might be 35, but let's not forget he recently became the first NBA player to shoot more than 50 percent from the floor, 90 percent from the line and 40 percent from 3-point range for three consecutive seasons.

How long "Shaq Vs." lasts remains to be seen. It landed a 2.7 rating locally, which means approximately 48,670 Phoenix homes tuned in to the ABC show. NBC's "America's Got Talent" received a 7.6 rating locally, and CBS's "Big Brother" took a 3.9 rating.

In future shows, O'Neal is scheduled to compete against swimmer Michael Phelps, boxer Oscar De La Hoya and tennis star Serena Williams.

O'Neal might have other battles in his future as well. Author Todd Gallagher says the show is a rip-off of his book, "Andy Roddick Beat Me with a Frying Pan," according to TMZ, and is pursuing legal action.

"Shaq Vs." is a reality show, but O'Neal's life more resembles a drama.

The Suns are better off without it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Ima guess this story is bullshit to a certain extent. AZCentral will take advantage of any opportunity to sabotage Shaq and make Nash look like the Knight in shining armor.

[Findog]

Ima guess this story is bullshit to a certain extent. AZCentral will take advantage of any opportunity to sabotage Shaq and make Nash look like the Knight in shining armor.

You can bash Nash all you want, but it's hardly a stretch to say Shaq has little to no integrity. He's thrown people under the bus repeatedly throughout his career whenever it suited him.

[da_suns_fan]

Ima guess this story is bullshit to a certain extent. AZCentral will take advantage of any opportunity to sabotage Shaq and make Nash look like the Knight in shining armor.

Youre such an idiot. You need to stop listening to Cubby. The Arizona Republic might have been in bed with the Colangelos, but they've shown zero love for Robert Sarver.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You can bash Nash all you want, but it's hardly a stretch to say Shaq has little to no integrity. He's thrown people under the bus repeatedly throughout his career whenever it suited him.


I'm sure if he was a little white Canadian who put on a false persona doing save the planet commercials, he'd get away with it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Youre such an idiot. You need to stop listening to Cubby. The Arizona Republic might have been in bed with the Colangelos, but they've shown zero love for Robert Sarver.


They've shown plenty of love for Nash.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Youre such an idiot.


Coming from you that's a compliment.

[Findog]

I'm sure if he was a little white Canadian who put on a false persona doing save the planet commercials, he'd get away with it.

I don't think Nash gets away with anything.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't think Nash gets away with anything.


:lmao

[Findog]

:lmao

What does he get away with?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What does he get away with?


Playing lazy defense for one. Getting teammates traded.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Maybe the national media is hard on No-D-Steve, but the local journalism is constantly fighting over who's turn it is to toss his salad.

[Findog]

Playing lazy defense for one.

How is that different from the whole Suns team? Knowledgeable fans know he sucks at D. Why worry what bandwagoners and newbies think?

Considering his faults on that end of the floor made it hard for the Suns to get past the Spurs and deal with Tony Parker, I hardly think he or the Suns have "gotten away" with that.



Getting teammates traded

The Shaq trade was done mostly for financial reasons, no? What other guys did he run out of town?

[Findog]

Maybe the national media is hard on No-D-Steve, but the local journalism is constantly fighting over who's turn it is to toss his salad.

Local media does that with every team's star player. It's nothing new.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Shaq trade was done mostly for financial reasons, no? What other guys did he run out of town?


He ran Marion out of town, which I don't really blame him for, just sayin'.

And yeah, he doesn't get away with it on the court, I meant he gets away with it off the court. For some reason Jason Richardson and Amare are both criticized constantly for bad D, yet Nash doesn't get any criticism.

And the Shaq trade was done because Nash wanted him traded, the article in your title hints at that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Local media does that with every team's star player. It's nothing new.


The extent they do it with Nash is unparalleled. An article written a few months back called anyone who criticizes Nash's defense "ignorant".

[Findog]

And yeah, he doesn't get away with it on the court, I meant he gets away with it off the court. For some reason Jason Richardson and Amare are both criticized constantly for bad D, yet Nash doesn't get any criticism.

Who doesn't criticize Nash's bad D? Az. Rep. writers? Bandwagon fans? Why would it bother you what they think? Among knowledgeable fans, scouts, gms and other coaches, he doesn't get a pass.


And the Shaq trade was done because Nash wanted him traded, the article in your title hints at that.

Well, the Suns mgmt knows they're in the middle class of teams that don't have the trade assets to get better, but they're not willing to hemorrhage money doing a T-Wolves style rebuild job. Keeping the franchise financially viable in this economy by selling tickets and replica jerseys is more important that a futile effort to get better or lay the groundwork for a championship contender 6-8 years from now. You may not like it, but basketball is a business first and foremost.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Here's a hunch that when the Suns decided to trade O'Neal to Cleveland in late June, it helped Nash arrive at his decision to sign an extension with the Suns a month later.


Notice how this is written in such a way that it's supposed to be a given that anyone Nash wants out of town is a bum and needs to go.

[Findog]

Notice how this is written in such a way that it's supposed to be a given that anyone Nash wants out of town is a bum and needs to go.

Supposition by the writer of the article.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Who doesn't criticize Nash's bad D? Az. Rep. writers? Bandwagon fans? Why would it bother you what they think? Among knowledgeable fans, scouts, gms and other coaches, he doesn't get a pass.


Because the love affair the fans have with Nash has pressured management to do extremely retarded stuff, most recently give a 35 year old PG an extension for way more than any other team would have given effectively forfeiting the next 3 years as pointless, counterproductive seasons.

[Findog]

Because the love affair the fans have with Nash has pressured management to do extremely retarded stuff, most recently give a 35 year old PG an extension for way more than any other team would have given effectively forfeiting the next 3 years as pointless, counterproductive seasons.

I imagine the Suns are in financial trouble and know season ticket sales would plummet if they did what Minny or the Zombie Sonics did and started over with youth. For basketball reasons, it makes no sense. For financial reasons, it makes all the sense in the world.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I imagine the Suns are in financial trouble and know season ticket sales would plummet if they did what Minny or the Zombie Sonics did and started over with youth. For basketball reasons, it makes no sense. For financial reasons, it makes all the sense in the world.


So maybe you understand my frustration when the team is more concerned with ticket sales than they are with how this team will look in 5 years.

[Findog]

Also, are you really prepared to watch the Suns win 18-25 games a year for the next 3-4 years while they rebuild with youth? It also depends on the Suns mgmt making wise draft choices. The Mavericks went through about five or six 3-year plans in the nineties and kept sucking.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And don't give Robert Sarver the "financial trouble" benefit of the doubt. The Suns have been one of the top teams in net profit since he bought the them, the problem is he didn't buy the Suns because he enjoys basketball and wants to own a winning team, he bought the Suns because he saw an asset he could buy at the right time and flip for a good profit 10 years from when he bought it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Also, are you really prepared to watch the Suns win 18-25 games a year for the next 3-4 years while they rebuild with youth?


Yes. For 40 years the Suns have been too cheap to suffer through 3 years of bad ticket sales and take a well planned, long term approach. The "stay competitive while rebuilding" plan simply doesn't work. I'm willing to try anything else at this point.

[Findog]

So maybe you understand my frustration when the team is more concerned with ticket sales than they are with how this team will look in 5 years.

It's a balancing act. They got themselves into this mess with most of the moves Kerr made and the stinginess of Sarver selling off picks. I'm just saying their perspective is different: hemorrhaging millions of $$$ is not something they want to do. Their priorities are different from yours.

[Culburn369]

And don't give Robert Sarver the "financial trouble" benefit of the doubt. The Suns have been one of the top teams in net profit since he bought the them, the problem is he didn't buy the Suns because he enjoys basketball and wants to own a winning team, he bought the Suns because he saw an asset he could buy at the right time and flip for a good profit 10 years from when he bought it.

That was before The Crash when he lost over a quarter billion dollars.

Easy come....easy go.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's a balancing act. They got themselves into this mess with most of the moves Kerr made and the stinginess of Sarver selling off picks.


The selling of draft picks is just another huge example of Sarver's complete reckless disregard for the long term interests of the team in order to max out short term financial gains.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That was before The Crash when he lost over a quarter billion dollars.

Easy come....easy go.


I hope the fucker goes bankrupt.

[Culburn369]

Because the love affair the fans have with Nash has pressured management to do extremely retarded stuff, most recently give a 35 year old PG an extension for way more than any other team would have given effectively forfeiting the next 3 years as pointless, counterproductive seasons.

Sure DUNCAN is young and a royal pain in-the-ass at times, but, he does have an uncanny ability to know exactly where the bear shits in the buckwheat.

[Findog]

The selling of draft picks is just another huge example of Sarver's complete reckless disregard for the long term interests of the team in order to max out short term financial gains.

Most teams are loathe to pay the lux tax...even though a championship and the home playoff games, jersey sales and championship-related gear that come with it would probably pay the lux tax.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Most teams are loathe to pay the lux tax...even though a championship and the home playoff games, jersey sales and championship-related gear that come with it would probably pay the lux tax.


Unless you're the San Antonio Spurs and have a franchise player who is once in a generation being willing to less money, you need to pay luxury tax to win a championship.

[Culburn369]

But, there is no better cash to talent ratio than #1 draft choices. It's like money from home.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But, there is no better cash to talent ratio than #1 draft choices. It's like money from home.


You don't have to tell me twice. That's why selling draft picks when your trying to get the best bang for your buck is so stupid.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So basically, if these articles had no effect on the Suns at all, I wouldn't care. When these articles are interpreted as law by the fans who think Paola Boivin knows anything about anything and it effects the decisions the team makes, then I'm pissed.

[manufan10]

Come on let's face it, Shaq made that show more entertaining. If it had been Steve Nash who would really watch it? The fact is Shaq IS entertainment, so I'm glad he stole the idea from Nash.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Come on let's face it, Shaq made that show more entertaining. If it had been Steve Nash who would really watch it? The fact is Shaq IS entertainment, so I'm glad he stole the idea from Nash.

Nash isn't allowed to go in water right now, it might aggravate his yeast infection, so there goes the Michael Phelps episode.

[kwamay_brown54]

Note to suns fans, all this pain and suffering you are going through and will go through is KARMA for that Tim Thomas 3 pointer over Kwamay Brown in game 6. I hope after every loss, you will feel the burning and pain and rot in hell for that shot.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Note to suns fans, all this pain and suffering you are going through and will go through is KARMA for that Tim Thomas 3 pointer over Kwamay Brown in game 6. I hope after every loss, you will feel the burning and pain and rot in hell for that shot.


Explain how it's KARMA? Was Tim Thomas supposed to intentionally miss the shot because he was playing the Lakers? This is kinda crap that pisses me off about Laker fans, they act like any team with the audacity to beat them in the playoffs committed some evil sin.

[BUMP]

The Suns saved the Lakers, from further humiliation and that was losing to the Clippers in the 2nd round.

Imagine the golden franchise of the NBA losing to their crosstown rival, the laughing stock of the league

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns saved the Lakers, from further humiliation and that was losing to the Clippers in the 2nd round.

Imagine the golden franchise of the NBA losing to their crosstown rival, the laughing stock of the league

They wouldn't have lost, they would have had 7 home games.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm still waiting to hear how it's karma you stupid fuck.

[kwamay_brown54]

They wouldn't have lost, they would have had 7 home games.

And then they would have faced a Mavs team, in which kobe has torched his entire career including the 62 point 3rd quarter game earlier in the year. And then revenge against shaq in the finals and another :lobt2:.

All of this never happened thanks to Tim Thomas and his "hand in my face" taunting ass bitch shot.

[Culburn369]

Explain how it's KARMA? Was Tim Thomas supposed to intentionally miss the shot because he was playing the Lakers? This is kinda crap that pisses me off about Laker fans, they act like any team with the audacity to beat them in the playoffs committed some evil sin.

It just aggravates me no end that the SOB sleep walked his entire career before that shot...then commenced sleep walking after that shot until this very day. WTF was he even doing in Phoenix then?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The only reason that shot needed to go in was cause of the horrible officiating to end game 4.

[Trainwreck2100]

It just aggravates me no end that the SOB sleep walked his entire career before that shot...then commenced sleep walking after that shot until this very day. WTF was he even doing in Phoenix then?
Sasha did the same shit in 08

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And then they would have faced a Mavs team, in which kobe has torched his entire career including the 62 point 3rd quarter game earlier in the year. And then revenge against shaq in the finals and another :lobt2:.


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Findog]

^ There's a reason that team blew a 3-1 lead.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm still waiting to hear how it's karma you stupid fuck.

[kwamay_brown54]

Laff all you want, but Hollinger even had that 2006 Heat championship as one of the weakest champions in the last 30 years. 2006 was the most wide open the title race will be in long long long time, in which lucky breaks determined the title winner, and not a dominant team from either conference. I mean the spurs won 64 games and lost the freakin mavs that year, that shit was wide wide open. The heat would have lost to any other team from the west that didn't have choke artists on as their leader.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Laff all you want, but Hollinger even had that 2006 Heat championship as one of the weakest champions in the last 30 years. 2006 was the most wide open the title race will be in long long long time, in which lucky breaks determined the title winner, and not a dominant team from either conference. I mean the spurs won 64 games and lost the freakin mavs that year, that shit was wide wide open. The heat would have lost to any other team from the west that didn't have choke artists on as their leader.


Are your parents brother and sister?

[kwamay_brown54]

Its karma because that motherfucker tim thomas decided to use that bitch ass "hand in my grill" taunt after every fucking 3 pointer he made, raja bell decided that the "rock bottom" was a legal basketball move, and the bitchass suns taunting after the game 7 victory. All that shit is coming back now and you will feel the burn now.

[Culburn369]

That GD video (Trainwreck)! It's a true wonderment.

[Culburn369]

Its karma because that motherfucker tim thomas decided to use that bitch ass "hand in my grill" taunt after every fucking 3 pointer he made, raja bell decided that the "rock bottom" was a legal basketball move, and the bitchass suns taunting after the game 7 victory. All that shit is coming back now and you will feel the burn now.

Kwamay, pickin' 'em up///layin' 'em down.

Preach it, brother Kwamay.

[kwamay_brown54]

And keep in mind that all these bush league tactics the suns were using while they were a #2 seed and had won 61 regular season games.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Its karma because that motherfucker tim thomas decided to use that bitch ass "hand in my grill" taunt after every fucking 3 pointer he made, raja bell decided that the "rock bottom" was a legal basketball move, and the bitchass suns taunting after the game 7 victory. All that shit is coming back now and you will feel the burn now.


You're really a few fries short of a happy meal.

[Findog]

And then they would have faced a Mavs team, in which kobe has torched his entire career including the 62 point 3rd quarter game earlier in the year.

They would've lost to the Mavs had they made it that far.



And then revenge against shaq in the finals and another

They would've lost to the Heat too.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And keep in mind that all these bush league tactics the suns were using while they were a #2 seed and had won 61 regular season games.


:lmao


What bush league tactics?

[Findog]

And keep in mind that all these bush league tactics the suns were using while they were a #2 seed and had won 61 regular season games.

The Lakers were lucky to get a ref-assisted victory in Game 4. The series should've never gone 7, and even so, Kobe quit early in the 3rd quarter.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Its karma because that motherfucker tim thomas decided to use that bitch ass "hand in my grill" taunt after every fucking 3 pointer he made, raja bell decided that the "rock bottom" was a legal basketball move, and the bitchass suns taunting after the game 7 victory. All that shit is coming back now and you will feel the burn now.


Why didn't you mention this originally.....your first post said that the Tim Thomas shot alone is what inflicted the KARMA?

[Culburn369]

You're really a few fries short of a happy meal.

No, no, DUNCAN, Kwamay is right here. You guys were petty & arrogant.

And yer now reaping the rotten fruit of your insidious labor.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So by your logic the Lakers have some bad Karma coming since Fisher knocked Scola to the ground and Kobe repeatedly wagged his finger in Battier's face while saying, "You can't guard me", right?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao Laker fans think that whenever a team beats LA, the can't be happy about it at all. They need to give a press conference saying, "We were just lucky to beat such a supremely great franchise. Thanks for letting us win LA."

[kwamay_brown54]

It's funny that Tim Thomas got a 5 year MLE deal off that game 6 shot and has completely fallen off the map ever since.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So by your logic the Lakers have some bad Karma coming since Fisher knocked Scola to the ground and Kobe repeatedly wagged his finger in Battier's face while saying, "You can't guard me", right?

[Culburn369]

So by your logic the Lakers have some bad Karma coming since Fisher knocked Scola to the ground and Kobe repeatedly wagged his finger in Battier's face while saying, "You can't guard me", right?

No, because Fisher was just responding in kind, and Battier had been running around with that Bible sized How to Stop Kobe Binder.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Battier had been running around with that Bible sized How to Stop Kobe Binder.


what's your point? Isn't that showing Kobe respect?

[kwamay_brown54]

Fisher got suspended for the Scola bump, and the rockets fans should have been pissed he got suspended because they might have been better off had he started in game 3 because aaron brooks was feasting off him. So by your logic you fail again.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Since the Lakers were the ones acting ignorant and cocky, it was OK. When the team playing LA acts ignorant and cocky, it brings on bad karma.

[Findog]

It's funny that Tim Thomas got a 5 year MLE deal off that game 6 shot and has completely fallen off the map ever since.

Not really. TT was playing for a contract and the Clips were dumb enough to give him one.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Fisher got suspended for the Scola bump, and the rockets fans should have been pissed he got suspended because they might have been better off had he started in game 3 because aaron brooks was feasting off him. So by your logic you fail again.


And Raja Bell got suspended for his clothesline. Your logic just failed a lot harder.

[Findog]

I'm not really sure how this thread turned into revisionist history about how the 05-06 Lakers were the greatest team of all-time.

[kwamay_brown54]

After the fisher suspension the taunting stopped in the Rockets series. You are comparing basically the first half of game 2 to an entire series where the suns a clearly superior team, resorted to blackballing standards to beat a much inferior 7 seed.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I'm not really sure how this thread turned into revisionist history about how the 05-06 Lakers were the greatest team of all-time.

Or how any team that beats the Lakers in the playoffs gets bad karma for having the nerve to try to win a playoff series.

[Findog]

After the fisher suspension the taunting stopped in the Rockets series. You are comparing basically the first half of game 2 to an entire series where the suns a clearly superior team, resorted to blackballing standards to be a much inferior 7 seed.

Now you're saying the Lakers were a much inferior team, whereas before you said they were a fluke shot from TT away from winning a title. Pick a lane, please.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

After the fisher suspension the taunting stopped in the Rockets series. You are comparing basically the first half of game 2 to an entire series where the suns a clearly superior team, resorted to blackballing standards to be a much inferior 7 seed.


Obviously the Suns weren't very superior if LA would have gone on to beat Dallas, a team Phoenix couldn't beat.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Now you're saying the Lakers were a much inferior team, whereas before you said they were a fluke shot from TT away from winning a title. Pick a lane, please.

He doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

[Findog]

Or how any team that beats the Lakers in the playoffs gets bad karma for having the nerve to try to win a playoff series.

That attitude is why Laker fans in general get no respect from other fanbases.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

After the fisher suspension the taunting stopped in the Rockets series.


Awesome, why didn't you mention this before your "Fisher got suspended Bell didn't" argument was nutted on?

[kwamay_brown54]

Now you're saying the Lakers were a much inferior team, whereas before you said they were a fluke shot from TT away from winning a title. Pick a lane, please.

This was my whole point originally fuckface, the 2006 title was completely a fluke occurence. That TT shot could have changed the entire outcome. How else does Miami go from winning in 2006, to swept in 2007 in the first round. Everything that happened in 2006 was completely atypical in the nba in the last 30 years.

[Culburn369]

Or how any team that beats the Lakers in the playoffs gets bad karma for having the nerve to try to win a playoff series.

Not any team, DUNCAN:::Your team qualified BIG TIME!...

[[[Originally Posted by kwamay_brown54 http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/Style_Templates/nba/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3644157#post3644157)

Its karma because that motherfucker tim thomas decided to use that bitch ass "hand in my grill" taunt after every fucking 3 pointer he made, raja bell decided that the "rock bottom" was a legal basketball move, and the bitchass suns taunting after the game 7 victory. All that shit is coming back now and you will feel the burn now.]]]

[Trainwreck2100]

How else does Miami go from winning in 2006, to swept in 2007 in the first round. Everything that happened in 2006 was completely atypical in the nba in the last 30 years.

cause shaq got his ring before Kobe and didn't give a fuck

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That TT shot could have changed the entire outcome.


So could the bullshit officiating at the end of game 4.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not any team, DUNCAN:::Your team qualified BIG TIME!...

[[[Originally Posted by kwamay_brown54 http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/Style_Templates/nba/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3644157#post3644157)

Its karma because that motherfucker tim thomas decided to use that bitch ass "hand in my grill" taunt after every fucking 3 pointer he made, raja bell decided that the "rock bottom" was a legal basketball move, and the bitchass suns taunting after the game 7 victory. All that shit is coming back now and you will feel the burn now.]]]


This isn't what he said originally. He said the TT shot alone is what brought on bad Karma. Pick an argument and stick with it.

[Findog]

This was my whole point originally fuckface, the 2006 title was completely a fluke occurence.

Is your pussy hurting? That Laker team sucked. They got a gift in G4 thanks to Bennett Salvatore. Otherwise, that series ends in 6 games. Even so, Kobe quit in Game 7, so it's all moot. No way they beat Dallas or Miami.


That TT shot could have changed the entire outcome.

It was karma for Bennett Salvatore and Game 4.


How else does Miami go from winning in 2006, to swept in 2007 in the first round.

Because Wade was hurt most of the year and all the other veterans on that team did not have enough pride in mounting a title defense.


Everything that happened in 2006 was completely atypical in the nba in the last 30 years.

The champion featured a very good post player and a slashing perimeter player that is one of the top 3 players in the League. They were surrounded by veteran role players that knew their roles and performed them accordingly..and they were coached by Pat Riley. Yep, you're right, that is COMPLETELY ATYPICAL from everything that has happened before.

[kwamay_brown54]

The Tim Thomas shot was a microcosm of all the cheap shots the suns needed in the series.

[LnGrrrR]

Does anyone think the show would be entertaining with Nash instead of Shaq? I don't.

[Trainwreck2100]

I have a hard time believing nash could defend these allegations

[kwamay_brown54]

THe Miami heat won 52 regular season games in 2006, and Shaq averaged 9 points in the finals. Did I mention that wade averaged about 19 FTA a game?

[Culburn369]

This isn't what he said originally. He said the TT shot alone is what brought on bad Karma.

I can't find the original post, DUNCAN. Lodge it, will ya?

[Findog]

THe Miami heat won 52 regular season games in 2006,

Anything over 50 means you're a very good team.


and Shaq averaged 9 points in the finals.

Because he was double-teamed constantly. That opened things up for Wade.


Did I mention that wade averaged about 19 FTA a game?


Earlier you called Dirk a choker; now the Mavs were robbed. Pick a lane, please.

[Culburn369]

The Tim Thomas shot was a microcosm of all the cheap shots the suns needed in the series.

They've paid a perilous price indeed.

That was the year Horry boxed Nash's ears, right?

[Findog]

They've paid a perilous price indeed.

That was the year Horry boxed Nash's ears, right?

Nope.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If the Suns lost that series, I'm willing to bet my life no Laker fans would be saying this is KARMA for that series.

[z0sa]

Does anyone think the show would be entertaining with Nash instead of Shaq? I don't.

BINGO

Nash instead of Shaq would be a failure of cosmic proportions. So even if it "was" his idea, he could have never followed through. Next.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Note to suns fans, all this pain and suffering you are going through and will go through is KARMA for that Tim Thomas 3 pointer over Kwamay Brown in game 6. I hope after every loss, you will feel the burning and pain and rot in hell for that shot.


This is the original post. No mention whatsoever of any of the behavior.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Tim Thomas shot was a microcosm of all the cheap shots the suns needed in the series.


I'm surprised they needed so many cheap shots since they were playing the "inferior 7 seed".

[kwamay_brown54]

This is the original post. No mention whatsoever of any of the behavior.

What does it matter, it shouldn't have ever come to needed that miracle anyways.

[Culburn369]

If the Suns lost that series, I'm willing to bet my life no Laker fans would be saying this is KARMA for that series.

A course. Your Karma woulda been pure & unadulterated. Amare would be seeing straight. Nash wouldn't a sued Daddy, Duncan wouldn't a hit that three, Richardson wouldn't a been cruising Scottsdale at 90 MPH, et al and etc.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

A course.


Thanks for playing.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What does it matter, it shouldn't have ever come to needed that miracle anyways.


Your right, Bennett Salvadore fucked that up.

[Culburn369]

I'm surprised they needed so many cheap shots since they were playing the "inferior 7 seed".

That's Kwamay's point: you took those cheap shots out of veangeance and meaness. There was no need, we were inferior, but, that didn't stop you from making us put our top rung of teeth on that Central Ave curb...& the last thing we heard:

"Now say good night."

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That's Kwamay's point: you took those cheap shots out of veangeance and meaness. There was no need, we were inferior, but, that didn't stop you from making us put on top rung of teeth on that Central Ave curb...& the last thing we heard:



Yeah you're right, the Suns chose to dig themselves a 1-3 hole and let their season hang in the balance of a 3 pointer at the end of regulation. They had the power to sweep LA but chose not to because someone letting a series go 7 games is more humiliating for the other team.

[kwamay_brown54]

Yeah you're right, the Suns chose to dig themselves a 1-3 hole and let their season hang in the balance of a 3 pointer at the end of regulation. They had the power to sweep LA but chose not to because someone letting a series go 7 games is more humiliating for the other team.

Well, it won't matter now anyways. The best your team can hope for is the 8th seed depending on if Dunleavy gets fired from the clippers to overtake you guys.

[Trainwreck2100]

A course. Your Karma woulda been pure & unadulterated. Amare would be seeing straight. Nash wouldn't a sued Daddy, Duncan wouldn't a hit that three, Richardson wouldn't a been cruising Scottsdale at 90 MPH, et al and etc.


:lol

I have a hard time believing nash could defend these allegations

cmon nobody got this, nobody? Is it like my sig and too subtle for you people

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Well, it won't matter now anyways. The best your team can hope for is the 8th seed depending on if Dunleavy gets fired from the clippers to overtake you guys.


Changing the topic = you lost the argument. Reminding a fan of how much his team sucks during an argument where it's irrelevant is basically waiving a white flag.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So basically Cubby, you're saying if Phoenix lost to LA rather than beat them, Amare would be healthy and Nash and Shaq should have never feuded?

[DPG21920]

Shaq coming in had called Nash's MVP's tainted, and we all remember that. Just like he is ripping Dwight Howard for no reason. Then he steals a show?

You bet your ass I would run him off of the team.

The reason that Nash "gets away" with bad defense and guys like Amare do not, is because of attitude. All of the pundits know Nash sucks on defense, but they do not rip him like Amare because 1) He does not have the athletic ability to be successful 2) He does not go around running his mouth and being a malcontent like Amare....

When you run around asking to be the man and then not produce(Amare)
people will be harsh. Steve shuts his mouth and does his job.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

1) He does not have the athletic ability to be successful


Your saying it was Steve Blakes superior athleticism that enabled him to drop 22 points and 10 assists on Nash last year?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Steve shuts his mouth and does his job.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I wasn't aware doing your job is letting Devin Harris drop 47 points.

[DPG21920]

Your saying it was Steve Blakes superior athleticism that enabled him to drop 22 points and 10 assists on Nash last year?

Don't play stupid. Overall, in the nba, Nash is not an athletic player. Overall. Combine that with poor individual/team defense, you get moments like that.

That would be like me saying: "Your saying it was Bruce's great defense that allowed Kobe to go for 30+ points?

[DPG21920]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Link?

[DPG21920]

I wasn't aware doing your job is letting Devin Harris drop 47 points.

He does not go around saying he is the best defender in the world. He does his job to help his team win games. He leads them to deep runs in the playoffs usually and he is an offensive player.

Don't be made because your team built around a player and system like that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

That would be like me saying: "Your saying it was Bruce's great defense that allowed Kobe to go for 30+ points?


You're comparing apples to oranges. Kobe Bryant drops 30+ points all the time, Steve Blake never drops 22 points and 10 assists.

[Trainwreck2100]

Link?

Nash drove Porter and Shaq out of town, hard to do that with your mouth shut. Unless you know American Sign Language which Nash doesn't cause he's Canadian

[DPG21920]

Time for Nash's gorilla defense! Oh wait, wrong quot.........

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Link?


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200904050DAL.html

[Muser]

DoK and Findog laying the smackdown on Kwamay.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So because Nash is a crappy defender, knows it and doesn't care, he's a better person than Amare who is a crappy defender and is just too stupid to know it?

[DPG21920]

Nash drove Porter and Shaq out of town, hard to do that with your mouth shut. Unless you know American Sign Language which Nash doesn't cause he's Canadian

Plenty of players put pressure on front offices. He plays with his mouth shut. He keeps his mouth shut about problems and deals with them internally. What, are guys never supposed to do anything????

You can say what ever you want when you are the leader of the team. Sometimes harsh things need to be said. But you always do it behind the scenes. You don't run around airing out dirty laundry and acting like a primadonna.

If you have ever played competitive sports and been successful, you would know the difference.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao, because Nash is white, people automatically assume he tries his hardest on defense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He plays with his mouth shut.


Is this the fallback plan since trainwreck made your original "Nash keeps his mouth shut" argument a "trainwreck"?

[Findog]

So because Nash is a crappy defender, knows it and doesn't care, he's a better person than Amare who is a crappy defender and is just too stupid to know it?

I don't think Nash "doesn't care." I really do think Amare doesn't care about D though.

[Findog]

Plenty of players put pressure on front offices. He plays with his mouth shut. He keeps his mouth shut about problems and deals with them internally. What, are guys never supposed to do anything????

You can say what ever you want when you are the leader of the team. Sometimes harsh things need to be said. But you always do it behind the scenes. You don't run around airing out dirty laundry and acting like a primadonna.

If you have ever played competitive sports and been successful, you would know the difference.

Exactly. Nash doesn't call out people through the media. Whenever he's had a problem, he says things like "some guys on our team" or whatever.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't think Nash "doesn't care."

http://sportsbybrooks.com/steve-nash-doesnt-care-about-winning-nba-title-16510

[kwamay_brown54]

:lmao, because Nash is white, people automatically assume he tries his hardest on defense.

IT's obvious to everyone on this board you are a closet spurs fans, just come out already.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Exactly. Nash doesn't call out people through the media. Whenever he's had a problem, he says things like "some guys on our team" or whatever.


As if that is so much better than specifically naming the player.

[Findog]

http://sportsbybrooks.com/steve-nash-doesnt-care-about-winning-nba-title-16510

In context, he's saying he doesn't need a ring to validate his career.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My guess is that if we were talking about Tyrone Nash from Harlem New York, he'd get just as much shit for his defense as Amare does.

[DPG21920]

Is this the fallback plan since trainwreck made your original "Nash keeps his mouth shut" argument a "trainwreck"?

No, both of you like to play stupid or are actually dumb. You know what I meant when I compared Amare's mouth to Nash's. Clearly both say things in the locker room. They are on a competitive team. Have you ever played sports beside intramural?

The distinction was the media.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

In context, he's saying he doesn't need a ring to validate his career.

In reality, he's trying to validate being a player more concerned with having fun than winning it all.

[Findog]

As if that is so much better than specifically naming the player.

Yes it is better. Guys don't like being called out through the media.

[Findog]

My guess is that if we were talking about Tyrone Nash from Harlem New York, he'd get just as much shit for his defense as Amare does.

Knowledgeable bball fans don't give Nash a pass for his lack of D. No need to bring race into it. Amare gets dumped on because he wants to be The Man but only plays on one side of the court.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You know what I meant when I compared Amare's mouth to Nash's.


Yes, I do. I think the logic that you're allowed to be a lazy crappy defender as long as you keep your mouth shut and admit your a lazy crappy defender is retarded.

[Findog]

In reality, he's trying to validate being a player more concerned with having fun than winning it all.

If you think Steve Nash hasn't killed himself trying to win a title with Phoenix, I don't know what to tell you.

[DPG21920]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Kobe Bryant drops 30+ points all the time, Steve Blake never drops 22 points and 10 assists.

Bull shit. If I can point out a similar game, not against Nash, will you be wrong?

Also, it is not apples to oranges because you are being intellectually dishonest and you know it.

The point was that you cannot isolate one thing and say the argument is wrong. The fact that an nonathletic player scored on Nash was not the point. The point was, that unlike Amare, Nash, even if he wanted to could not be a good defender because of his natural lack of athleticism.

He could put in better effort, but he would still be known as a poor defender.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Yes it is better. Guys don't like being called out through the media.


When Nash said, "Our big men aren't active enough," he might as well have just come out and said Amare and Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash, even if he wanted to could not be a good defender because of his natural lack of athleticism.


But he could be a better defender than he is.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bull shit. If I can point out a similar game, not against Nash, will you be wrong?


No, I wouldn't be. By your logic, if Nash tries his absolute hardest defensively and only gets burned by extremely athletic point guards, why is he getting burnt by unathletic PG's like Kidd and Blake?

[Findog]

When Nash said, "Our big men aren't active enough," he might as well have just come out and said Amare and Shaq.

And I guarantee you that both those guys would prefer that to "Amare and Shaq aren't active enough." Message was delivered w/o publicly naming them.

[Culburn369]

So basically Cubby, you're saying if Phoenix lost to LA rather than beat them, Amare would be healthy and Nash and Shaq should have never feuded?

It's food for thought.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And I guarantee you that both those guys would prefer that to "Amare and Shaq aren't active enough." Message was delivered w/o publicly naming them.


And I guarantee you they would have preferred Nash talk to them about it rather than hide behind the local Phoenix media that will write anything he wants them to.

[Culburn369]

If you think Steve Nash hasn't killed himself trying to win a title with Phoenix, I don't know what to tell you.

He quit against Dallas in '06 or '07...I get those years confused.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Bull shit. If I can point out a similar game, not against Nash, will you be wrong?

Which one happens a lot more, Kobe Bryant 30+ point nights, or Steve Blake 20 10 nights?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If you think Steve Nash hasn't killed himself trying to win a title with Phoenix, I don't know what to tell you.


Players who kill themselves to win championships don't let the opposing guard drop 30 points in a must win game 6.

[Findog]

And I guarantee you they would have preferred Nash talk to them about it rather than hide behind the local Phoenix media that will write anything he wants them to.

Who says he didn't? You don't know everything that goes on in the locker room. That kind of stuff happens all the time, where guys criticize teammates to the press w/o naming names. I just know that he always says things like "Our effort wasn't very good, some of our guys didn't hustle, etc."

Your Nash hate is contorting your logic into all sorts of pretzels.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's easy for Mavs and Spurs fans to tell me how much of a fierce competitor Nash is when that "fierce competition" they're referring to enabled their team to get to the finals.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Who says he didn't?


I think we woulda heard about it given Amare's inability to control his mouth.

[Culburn369]

It's easy for Mavs and Spurs fans to tell me how much of a fierce competitor Nash is when that "fierce competition" they're referring to enabled their team to get to the finals.

Right on, DUNCAN.

[Findog]

Players who kill themselves to win championships don't let the opposing guard drop 30 points in a must win game 6.

You're giving Nash shit bc Tony Parker went for 30 on him???? Nash CAN'T guard TP. It's not a matter of WON'T. I've watched him in Dallas and in Phoenix and I'll never question his effort or desire.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He quit against Dallas in '06 or '07...I get those years confused.


Letting Jason Kidd drop 20 assists in a must win game to make the playoffs could be the dictionary definition of quitting.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I've watched him in Dallas and in Phoenix and I'll never question his effort or desire.


You musta missed the last game Dallas and Phoenix played each other.

[Findog]

It's easy for Mavs and Spurs fans to tell me how much of a fierce competitor Nash is when that "fierce competition" they're referring to enabled their team to get to the finals.

The Mavs and Spurs were constructed better than the Suns were. You can't get to the Finals when you give up 50%+ shooting routinely. Nash deserves some blame for the lack of overall team D, but so does Amare, D'Antoni, etc.

[Findog]

You musta missed the last game Dallas and Phoenix played each other.

No, I watched it.

[Findog]

He quit against Dallas in '06 or '07...I get those years confused.

No, he didn't. He was gassed at the end of G6 but he was still trying. They were basically a 6-man rotation at that point.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No, I watched it.


He sure played with a lot of heart when Jason Kidd was posting him up.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Mavs and Spurs were constructed better than the Suns were. You can't get to the Finals when you give up 50%+ shooting routinely. Nash deserves some blame for the lack of overall team D, but so does Amare, D'Antoni, etc.


It's just coincidence the Mavs all the sudden got the structure and defense a team needs once Nash left?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

This thread sure covers a lot of topics :lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And Findog, I blame Amare and D'antoni plenty. It's not like I'm a huge Amare fan, I just think Nash needs to go a lot more than Amare.

[Culburn369]

No, he didn't. He was gassed at the end of G6 but he was still trying. They were basically a 6-man rotation at that point.

You say "gassed"...I say quit. He did the same damn thing with Dallas earlier in the decade.

[Findog]

He sure played with a lot of heart when Jason Kidd was posting him up.

Getting posted up by Kidd is not a matchup he can win.

[Findog]

You say "gassed"...I say quit. He did the same damn thing with Dallas earlier in the decade.

When? I don't fucking think so:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200305270SAS.html

They were facing elimination on the road without Dirk and they rallied from 19 down. Anybody watching G6 of PHX-DAL in 2006 could see how exhausted he was in the 4th Quarter.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Getting posted up by Kidd is not a matchup he can win.

It's not a matchup he should get dominated by as much as he did. Jason Kidd was backing down to the basket with way too much ease. Steve Blake is just as under sized as Nash, why is it Kidd has never dropped 19 points and 20 assists on him?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Cubby, I agree with Findog about 2006, Nash simply ran out of gas. He'd carried the team all year with no help.

[Findog]

It's just coincidence the Mavs all the sudden got the structure and defense a team needs once Nash left?

Nash's departure alone didn't solve anything, it created problems. We were lucky we had Antoine Walker's expiring contract to land Jason Terry. And as maligned as Dampier is, he gave us size and D in the middle.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash's departure alone didn't solve anything, it created problems. We were lucky we had Antoine Walker's expiring contract to land Jason Terry. And as maligned as Dampier is, he gave us size and D in the middle.


Would Dallas have been able to become the good defensive team they were in 2006 if Nash was the starting PG?

[Findog]

Steve Blake is just as under sized as Nash, why is it Kidd has never dropped 19 points and 20 assists on him?

I don't know. Never watched many Nets-Blazers games. Depending on the matchups and personnel on the floor, there may be other things Kidd's teams want to do. Too many variables to answer that question.

[Findog]

Would Dallas have been able to become the good defensive team they were in 2006 if Nash was the starting PG?

Jason Terry is just as bad at D as Nash, so assuming we could swap out Terry for Nash and still have Dampier, I think we win the title that year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

His departure didn't solve anything, you're right, but it opened up the possibility of taking the next step they needed to take.

Phoenix wouldn't be a better team if he died tomorrow, but they'd no longer have that hump they'll never get over with Nash.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Jason Terry is just as bad at D as Nash


No.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Jason Terry is just as bad at D as Nash, so assuming we could swap out Terry for Nash and still have Dampier, I think we win the title that year.


I think Tony Parker takes a piping hot shit on Dallas.

[Findog]

His departure didn't solve anything, you're right, but it opened up the possibility of taking the next step they needed to take.



FWIW, they didn't plan on losing Nash. They wanted to bring him back but never expected PHX to come up with the offer they did. They were lucky that the contigency moves on the fly worked out the way they did.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't know. Never watched many Nets-Blazers games. Depending on the matchups and personnel on the floor, there may be other things Kidd's teams want to do. Too many variables to answer that question.


You'd think if Kidd was that effective posting up every single PG as undersized or more undersized than Nash, his team would go to that whenever possible.

[Findog]

I think Tony Parker takes a piping hot shit on Dallas.

If you watched the first-round series this year between our two teams, he did exactly that. We couldn't stop him. Fortunately they had nobody else besides Duncan who could hurt us.

Ah, you're talking about Nash vs. Parker. I stand by what I said. They couldn't beat us this year with Parker playing out of his mind. He couldn't have done any better against Nash.

[DPG21920]

Yes, I do. I think the logic that you're allowed to be a lazy crappy defender as long as you keep your mouth shut and admit your a lazy crappy defender is retarded.

Comprehension Fail. The point is, he never can be a great defender or even a good one. Could he put in more effort on that end? Yes. But Amare has the God given tools to be an elite defender and he fails. That is what is inexcusable.

And LMAO at you sons playing the race card :lol


No, I wouldn't be. By your logic, if Nash tries his absolute hardest defensively and only gets burned by extremely athletic point guards, why is he getting burnt by unathletic PG's like Kidd and Blake?

Because of talent. Just because you try hard does not make you good at something. Kidd is a great point guard. Blake is not, but it happens. Plenty of good defenders get roasted and toasted on occasion. Stupid argument. It is basketball and even Lebron can get dunked on by a scrub.

[DPG21920]

Which one happens a lot more, Kobe Bryant 30+ point nights, or Steve Blake 20 10 nights?

Who is considered a good defender, Bowen or Nash?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

FWIW, they didn't plan on losing Nash. They wanted to bring him back but never expected PHX to come up with the offer they did. They were lucky that the contigency moves on the fly worked out the way they did.

IMO that's got nothing to do with the fact Nash took the struggles against the Spurs with him to Phoenix, when before Nash the Suns were a crappy team that gave SA a lot more trouble than they should have.

[Findog]

You'd think if Kidd was that effective posting up every single PG as undersized or more undersized than Nash, his team would go to that whenever possible.

Maybe Dirk is being "guarded" by LaMarcus Aldridge and they'd rather go to that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Could he put in more effort on that end? Yes.

So why is it OK that he doesn't?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Maybe Dirk is being "guarded" by LaMarcus Aldridge and they'd rather go to that.

We're kinda going off on a tangent here, but during that game Dirk was being guarded by Matt Barnes, it's not like that's a bad matchup for Dirk.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And LMAO at you sons playing the race card :lol


Don't tell me Nash being white has nothing to do with why you assume he's incapable of being a good defender.

[DPG21920]

So why is it OK that he doesn't?

It is not ok if you want every player to be everything. There are 99% of the league that don't always put in 100% on both ends. But they also do not bring what Nash does on the offensive end.

It would be a net loss overall if Nash took away from his offense (which is amazing) and put more energy and effort into defense (which would tire him out) when he can't be good at it anyways.

If he had the ability to be a good defender, I could see the argument, because overall it would help. Amare has that and his effort and talents would be a net gain on that end.

[DPG21920]

Don't tell me Nash being white has nothing to do with why you assume he's incapable of being a good defender.

It doesn't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It doesn't.


Then why do you assume Nash is incapable of being a good defender?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But Amare has the God given tools to be an elite defender and he fails.


I disagree. Your mental gifts are just as much "god given" as your physical gifts. Fact is, Amare was blessed with an extremely low basketball IQ. That's never going to change, it's not like there's a brain exercise he can do to become Tim Duncan.

Also, yeah, he's athletic. He's also extremely frail. He doesn't have the lower body strength to keep players away from the basket or fight for position.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It would be a net loss overall if Nash took away from his offense (which is amazing) and put more energy and effort into defense (which would tire him out) when he can't be good at it anyways.

If he had the ability to be a good defender, I could see the argument, because overall it would help. Amare has that and his effort and talents would be a net gain on that end.


So somehow Amare has the ability to try hard on defense while still maintaining his energy level on offense, but Nash doesn't?

[DPG21920]

Then why do you assume Nash is incapable of being a good defender?


I disagree. Your mental gifts are just as much "god given" as your physical gifts. Fact is, Amare was blessed with an extremely low basketball IQ. That's never going to change, it's not like there's a brain exercise he can do to become Tim Duncan.

Also, yeah, he's athletic. He's also extremely frail. He doesn't have the lower body strength to keep players away from the basket or fight for position.

The fact that you write this, shows why your player evaluation skills are poor and why you hate Nash so much.

So Amare cannot be a good defender, but Nash can. Got ya.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The fact that you write this, shows why your player evaluation skills are poor and why you hate Nash so much.

So Amare cannot be a good defender, but Nash can.


I never said Nash can.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So Amare cannot be a good defender


Right, he can't. He doesn't possess the intelligence or lower body strength to ever be a good interior defender.

Just like how Nash doesn't have the physical gifts to be a great perimeter defender. They both however can be a lot better than they are.

[DPG21920]

So somehow Amare has the ability to try hard on defense while still maintaining his energy level on offense, but Nash doesn't?

Nope. He would get tired, but athleticism goes a long way to help recover. Amare does not have to work nearly as hard as Nash on offense anyways, not to mention that is not that point.

Point is, Amare has the tools to be a good defender and he could still give the Suns what they needed offensively as well. May be a slight dip in production, but still adequate.

Nash is the offense and even if he put all of his effort into defense, it would be a net loss because he would never stop TP, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul....But he can match them offensively.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The fact that you write this, shows why your player evaluation skills are poor and why you hate Nash so much.

So Amare cannot be a good defender, but Nash can. Got ya.


This is coming from an Andrea Bargnani fan.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

But he can match them offensively.


No he can't. He no longer matches the production of great PG's. He gets out produced.

[DPG21920]

Right, he can't. He doesn't possess the intelligence or lower body strength to ever be a good interior defender.

Just like how Nash doesn't have the physical gifts to be a great perimeter defender. They both however can be a lot better than they are.

Nope. Just flat our wrong. No one said Amare could be the best low post defender. He could be a good defender overall. Even good defenders have their weaknesses.

Amare is a mobile big that could cancel out the Pau's of the league. Nash could not cancel out anyone because he does not have the physical gifts.

There are plenty of dumb defenders in the league.

[DPG21920]

This is coming from an Andrea Bargnani fan.

Look at the numbers sons.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash is the offense


That was his decision. He had a great center who could get points on his own, but he didn't want that. Being the main offensive player not expected to try on defense was Nash's choice.

[DPG21920]

No he can't. He no longer matches the production of great PG's. He gets out produced.

Failure. How many other pg's shot 50/40/90? Also, we have been talking over his career. Not just this upcoming year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nash could not cancel out anyone because he does not have the physical gifts.



He must be REALLY unathletic since he's unable to cancel out Steve Blake.

[Findog]

It is not ok if you want every player to be everything. There are 99% of the league that don't always put in 100% on both ends. But they also do not bring what Nash does on the offensive end.

Yep. Just about every player in the league takes plays off from time to time.



It would be a net loss overall if Nash took away from his offense (which is amazing) and put more energy and effort into defense (which would tire him out) when he can't be good at it anyways.

Exactly. You have to figure out where you can help your team the most. There are times in pickup where I'm guarding a guy more offensively skilled than me. It's best for me to bust my ass checking him and spreading the floor as a spot-up shooter on offense, as opposed to trying to match him shot for shot.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Failure. How many other pg's shot 50/40/90?


When they're being guarded by Nash, all of 'em.

[ginobili's bald spot]

When they're being guarded by Nash, all of 'em.

:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Again, it's really easy to toss Nash's salad when he's the reason your team made the finals.

[DPG21920]

That was his decision. He had a great center who could get points on his own, but he didn't want that. Being the main offensive player not expected to try on defense was Nash's choice.

Ha ha. You don't even know your own team. Nash took 851 shots. Oneal took 841 shots. He gave Shaq just as many shots as he himself took.

[DPG21920]

No one is in love with Nash. But your arguments are petty and illogical.

[Findog]

Nope. Just flat our wrong. No one said Amare could be the best low post defender. He could be a good defender overall. Even good defenders have their weaknesses.

Amare is a mobile big that could cancel out the Pau's of the league. Nash could not cancel out anyone because he does not have the physical gifts.

There are plenty of dumb defenders in the league.

If Carmelo can overcome low bball IQ to become a more complete player, no reason why Amare can't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When Devin Harris dropped 47 points and 8 assists on Nash, was the 26 points and 9 assists Nash had considered "matching production"?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Ha ha. You don't even know your own team. Nash took 851 shots. Oneal took 841 shots. He gave Shaq just as many shots as he himself took.


I wasn't talking about last year. I was talking about this coming season. Nash got Shaq traded so he could do more on offense and be expected to do less on defense.

[carrao45]

Shaq vs Penny
Shaq vs His orlando coach
Shaq vs Kobe
Shaq vs Buss
Shaq vs SVG
Shaq vs Nash
Shaq vs Dwight Howard


I'm starting to see a pattern, Shaq is a whiney child, and people dont like him

Shaq vs Harris
Shaq vs Nick Van Exel
Shaq vs Rambis
Shaq slams Michael Thompson
Shaq vs Bill Walton
Shaq vs Old Age
Shaq vs Obscurity

Those last two are losing battles he's fighting

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Carmelo can overcome low bball IQ to become a more complete player, no reason why Amare can't.


My guess is if Nash was traded for a real leader like Chauncey Billups, Amare would somewhat become a more complete player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No one is in love with Nash. But your arguments are petty and illogical.


1) How are they petty?
2) What's illogical is a fan of a team with a history of owning Nash trying to tell the fan of Nash's team how great and competitive Nash is.

[DPG21920]

I wasn't talking about last year. I was talking about this coming season. Nash got Shaq traded so he could do more on offense and be expected to do less on defense.

How is he doing less on defense with Shaq gone? They did not do more on defense anyways with him there. Teams just put those 2 in the pick and roll and they both sucked.

Shaq was moved for financial reasons and because he is a giant douche behind the scenes and in public.

Is Nash supposed to say: "Hey, we brought Shaq in, I gave him just as many shots as myself, we played just as crappy of defense, and ended up in the lottery! Keep him and his bloated contract!!!!!!!!!" "I mean, I am the one with tainted MVP's!!!!"

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

How is he doing less on defense with Shaq gone?


He has the excuse you created for him since he's going to need to focus 100% on offense now that he's the only player on the team who can create his own shot or a shot for someone else.

[DPG21920]

1) How are they petty?
2) What's illogical is a fan of a team with a history of owning Nash trying to tell the fan of Nash's team how great and competitive Nash is.

1) Petty because they are non-stop and not based on fact, but your hatred.

2) Fail. We are not saying Nash is the best player, just that your arguments suck.

[DPG21920]

He has the excuse you created for him since he's going to need to focus 100% on offense now that he's the only player on the team who can create his own shot or a shot for someone else.

Is Amare gone? Jason Richardson? Barbosa and Hill as well?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is Nash supposed to say: "Hey, we brought Shaq in, I gave him just as many shots as myself, we played just as crappy of defense, and ended up in the lottery! Keep him and his bloated contract!!!!!!!!!" "I mean, I am the one with tainted MVP's!!!!"


No, he's supposed to keep his mouth shut after the embarrassing field days PG's had against him all of last season rather than try and find a scapegoat to blame.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

2) Fail. We are not saying Nash is the best player, just that your arguments suck.


Your arguments are even worse when your team's last two championships are largely cause of Nash's D.

[DPG21920]

No, he's supposed to keep his mouth shut after the embarrassing field days PG's had against him all of last season rather than try and find a scapegoat to blame.

Pffffffffff. Ya, be the leader of a team that was in the lottery and just stay quiet. I am glad I was never on a team with you.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is Amare gone? Jason Richardson? Barbosa and Hill as well?


None of those players are capable of consistently creating his own shot.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Ya, be the leader of a team that was in the lottery and just stay quiet.


He should be embarrassed he just led his team to the lottery.

[DPG21920]

Your arguments are even worse when your team's last two championships are largely cause of Nash's D.

Makes no sense and you are grasping at straws. So anyone who roots for a team that beat the Suns in the playoffs cannot talk.

By that logic, I could say that no Suns fan could talk because they are so biased against Nash because they watched Championship teams beat the Suns on their way to the title.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I am glad I was never on a team with you.


I'm especially glad I wasn't on a team with someone who thinks that if he's the best offensive player he doesn't have to play defense.

[Findog]

None of those players are capable of consistently creating his own shot.

Consistently? What does that mean? Richardson and Amare are NOT helpless on O w/o Nash.

[DPG21920]

None of those players are capable of consistently creating his own shot.

:lol

[Findog]

He should be embarrassed he just led his team to the lottery.

They won 46 games. What is that, the 4th seed in the East?

[DPG21920]

I'm especially glad I wasn't on a team with someone who thinks that if he's the best offensive player he doesn't have to play defense.

Another comprehension fail. I said that he does not have the tools to be good, so it would be wasteful. He is a system player.

If he was as good as Bowen, then you bet your ass that I would say he should play much more defense.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Makes no sense and you are grasping at straws. So anyone who roots for a team that beat the Suns in the playoffs cannot talk.


Yep, they can't talk. They look retarded. At least Findog cheers for the team Nash used to be on.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

They won 46 games. What is that, the 4th seed in the East?


Maybe he can buy himself a trophy for being the best player on the best NBA team to not make the playoffs.

[DPG21920]

Yep, they can't talk. They look retarded. At least Findog cheers for the team Nash used to be on.

You look foolish right now. You look like an ex girl friend that a guy screwed over.

Hell hath no furry like a DOK scorned.

[kwamay_brown54]

Hey at least Nash can effectively guard Derek Fisher, in all 4 regular season games last year, I don't think Fish had one good game.

[DPG21920]

By that logic, I could say that no Suns fan could talk because they are so biased against Nash because they watched Championship teams beat the Suns on their way to the title.


Yep, they can't talk. They look retarded. At least Findog cheers for the team Nash used to be on.

[Findog]

Maybe he can buy himself a trophy for being the best player on the best NBA team to not make the playoffs.

I didn't say he should go out and get a "we won 46 games" trophy. I want to know what's "embarrassing" about winning 46 games. That's not a lottery team, that's a power inbalance between the conferences.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Another comprehension fail. I said that he does not have the tools to be good, so it would be wasteful. He is a system player.

If he was as good as Bowen, then you bet your ass that I would say he should play much more defense.


If you watched as many Suns games as I have, you would know it's not only about effort. It's about his habit of ballhawking. If he took some plays off when the guy he was guarding just drive by him, it'd be a different story. When he runs around and ball hawks ignoring the fact he's supposed to be guarding someone, it's inexcusable.

I know Parker and Duncan take plays off a lot, but neither of them ball hawk.

[Findog]

You look foolish right now. You look like an ex girl friend that a guy screwed over.

Hell hath no furry like a DOK scorned.

DOK is a very good poster except on the subject of Nash. There are many villains responsible for the Suns fall from the elite and Nash is one of them, but to hear DOK tell it, Nash is the only one.

[DPG21920]

:lmao

And I thought I instigate shit...:wow


So you calling him a bitch?

To late to recover.

[DPG21920]

DOK is a very good poster except on the subject of Nash. There are many villains responsible for the Suns fall from the elite and Nash is one of them, but to hear DOK tell it, Nash is the only one.

I agree.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I want to know what's "embarrassing" about winning 46 games.


The nature of it was embarrassing. When your the starting PG and a large reason why your team didn't win 50+ games is because of the career highs dropped on you all season, it's embarrassing, or at least it should be.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DOK is a very good poster except on the subject of Nash. There are many villains responsible for the Suns fall from the elite and Nash is one of them, but to hear DOK tell it, Nash is the only one.


I agree there were many factors. I try to rotate. Up until a few months ago, I never blamed Nash. Now it's time he pays.

[Muser]

DoK, was there a player on the Suns dynasty that played harder than Nash?


Suns Dynasty?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Findog, would you be embarrassed if you were Nash and a season that involved Rondo, Westbrook, Brooks, Mo Williams, and Devin Harris all dropping what was at the time a career high on you?

[Findog]

The nature of it was embarrassing. When your the starting PG and a large reason why your team didn't win 50+ games is because of the career highs dropped on you all season, it's embarrassing, or at least it should be.

What about Shaq's inability/refusal to guard the p'n'r? What about the fact that they brought Porter in with a mandate to win with defense when that's not the kind of personnel they had? D'Antoni made the Shaq experiment work better than Porter could.* What about trading two very good defenders for a very shitty one? What about Amare missing the last two months of the season with an eye injury? Lots of reasons the Suns failed to win 50 games, and Nash is one of those reasons, but like I said, you never harp on these other factors.

* I don't blame Porter for getting fired, he was given his marching orders and tried to follow them, but the personnel they had and then the Richardson trade made his job that much tougher. If they wanted to keep running SSOL, they should've kept D'Antoni.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DoK, was there a player on the Suns dynasty that played harder than Nash?

No, the team was full of people who didn't play hard. Everyone is assuming I only blame Nash, and they're wrong.

[Findog]

Findog, would you be embarrassed if you were Nash and a season that involved Rondo, Westbrook, Brooks, Mo Williams, and Devin Harris all dropping what was at the time a career high on you?

Those are all quick, speedy young guys.

Here's an example: I have a Tuesday night pickup game I'm in. I'm 31 years old and my game is Battier/Bowen/Prince-like. I pride myself on my ability to check guys. Last week this 20 year old shows up. I'd played against him before and checked him before. He's definitely a good player. This time though, he was on fire. Just destroyed me. I couldn't check him. He was way too quick for me. It was hot and muggy out and as the games wore on, I tired quicker and he didn't. I tried to check him as best as I could, but he just toyed with me and did whatever he wanted. He's got a 20 yr old's joints, stamina and endurance and I have the joints, stamina and endurance of a 31 yr old. I probably would've been better off not expending so much energy checking him and looked for my shot more. It happens. Now I know how Kidd must feel trying to check Paul or TP.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What about Shaq's inability/refusal to guard the p'n'r? What about the fact that they brought Porter in with a mandate to win with defense when that's not the kind of personnel they had? D'Antoni made the Shaq experiment work better than Porter could.* What about trading two very good defenders for a very shitty one? What about Amare missing the last two months of the season with an eye injury? Lots of reasons the Suns failed to win 50 games, and Nash is one of those reasons, but like I said, you never harp on these other factors.

* I don't blame Porter for getting fired, he was given his marching orders and tried to follow them, but the personnel they had and then the Richardson trade made his job that much tougher. If they wanted to keep running SSOL, they should've kept D'Antoni.


Porter is gone, I stopped talking about Porter once he was fired. I'd stop talking about Nash if he was traded.

You know I blame Amare for plenty.

The point is, Nash is supposed to be the leader. He's supposed to do whatever he could to make the team the best it could be, and he didn't.

[DJB]

Yeah, I don't doubt this at all. Shaq may be the most entertaining person in Sports but he's a total cocksucker.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And furthermore, if Porter was given a two year extension for his performance last year, I'd be kicking and screaming about that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Those are all quick, speedy young guys.

Here's an example: I have a Tuesday night pickup game I'm in. I'm 31 years old and my game is Battier/Bowen/Prince-like. I pride myself on my ability to check guys. Last week this 20 year old shows up. I'd played against him before and checked him before. He's definitely a good player. This time though, he was on fire. Just destroyed me. I couldn't check him. He was way too quick for me. It was hot and muggy out and as the games wore on, I tired quicker and he didn't. I tried to check him as best as I could, but he just toyed with me and did whatever he wanted. He's got a 20 yr old's joints, stamina and endurance and I have the joints, stamina and endurance of a 31 yr old. I probably would've been better off not expending so much energy checking him and looked for my shot more. It happens. Now I know how Kidd must feel trying to check Paul or TP.

Again, if Nash ONLY got burnt by quick and speedy guys, I'd see your point.

[Findog]

Again, if Nash ONLY got burnt by quick and speedy guys, I'd see your point.

The only guys you listed as having career highs in your previous posts were quick, speedy guys.

[crc21209]

Nash is trash. :lol. If he really wanted to do it then he should've done it and not told anyone about it, ESPECIALLY Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The only guys you listed as having career highs in your previous posts were quick, speedy guys.

Those are career highs, 19 points and 20 assists isn't a career high for Kidd, but if I were Nash I'd still be embarrassed I gave that up.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Another example is the 18 point night JJ Barea had on Nash. It's not a career high, but it sure as hell isn't a number you should be letting JJ Barea get.