Most Athletic Center of All Time? David Robinson or Dwight Howard [Archive] - Page 2

whottt

09-03-2009, 01:51 AM

What about Hakeem's first championship in Houston?

It had a former ALL NBA PF named Otis Thorpe on it, and it had a PG that could take over a game and was routinely the guy that closed out their wins named Sam Cassell, who would go on to be an All Star...and win a championsho with another team.

His team lead the NBA in 3 pont shooting, it had a guy named Robert Horry on it..., in case you don't remember, he buttfucked your team in game 5 of the NBA finals. Who would go on to win several more championships with several another teas.

It also had a guard name Mario Elie who played a huge role in forever changing the Spurs from also rans into champions and had a knack for knocking timely daggers. Who would go on to win a championship with another team.

That Rockets team had 3 other players that went on to win championships with other teams, pretty much at the start of their careers.

I want you to name one player David Robinson played with that was equivalent to any of them prior to his injury.

Mo Cheeks was on his last legs and so was Moses Malone.

polandprzem

09-03-2009, 01:52 AM

Is the blowjob gonna be videotaped?

ambchang - I would love to disscuss your problems but I do not see the purpose of doing it. Mostly because it leads to nothing and besides I have not much time explaining all the stuff.

1. dave was capable of doing AND he was doing mostly because the flashy game was allowed in 90s and it was common.
2. Wilt was not doing the things Dave was doing o the court. And I'm not talking about capabilieties as we haven't seen Chamberlain doing better athletic things then Dave. He might have been capable or not.
3. the thing you do not understand about Bolt is that we are not disscussing who was the best athlete that played basketball (well maybe you do but I'm not).
4. Quit that alleyoop shit it gets boring. You gonna to bang it all the time for meaningless reason, making it a stupid argument.
5. To make it as simple as I can - Wilt was not as quick as Dave, Wilt was not that plastic (I would like to see him dunk a 360 he would probably do it but what style?), Wilt was stronger then Admiral, Wilt was not that fluid around the basket with his moves.
6. I don't know what else is not clear ... I might get back to it tomorrow

Cry Havoc

09-03-2009, 02:01 AM

5Knv-KbA8AQ

Those are good passing skills. Not unheard of for a big man, and definitely not heard of for a good guard. Most of those passes are being made on very simple cuts to the hoop. He's telegraphing half of them.

If you'll note, the defenders in the 60s apparently didn't feel it necessary to even keep their hands/arms up on defense. They stand there like twigs, absolutely no defense at all.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:01 AM

I'd call 2003 an "individual carrying a team to a title" kind of season. A not ready for prime time pg, a rookie sg, an aging center, and an absolutely dominant PF who lead his team in pts, reb, ast and blks.

Hey, in 1994 David Robinson lead his team in points, assists, steals, blocks, FG% snd pulled down over 10 boards a game. He also pulled a quadruple double and became the only other C besides Wilt Chamberlain to score 70 points in a game.

That season wipes it's fucking ass with any by Tim Duncan.

And it was probably worst team David Robinson played on and was the easiest to defeat in the post season.

It was by far David Robinson's worst playoff performance...

Now I ask you, was it just that he stopped caring once his team made the post season, or was the fact that team sucked fucking ass the more likely culprit.

And that aging center was the guy guarding fucking Shaquille O'Neal when they dethroned those 3 time defening champions.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:14 AM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SFW/1963.html

Click it...then explain that season to me. I guess he just didn't feel like having a winning record, or making the playoffs that year...

Hakeem has a season like that, so does Kareem, so does Shaq. David does not.

It's funny because David Robinson played on less talented teams than any of these guys and did more with it, yet he is the only one people say couldn't win without player X...

Well Wilt didn't win shit without other All Stars on his team, neither did Hakeem, neither did Kareem, neither did Shaq. The difference is, David with played with fewer of them anyone.

Cue: Idiot bringing Dennis Rodman, as if he is a secondary scorer and solution to double and triple teaming.

Or will it be...the Finals MVP suddenly becomes the single most important thing in the history of the game....you know, because Duncan got it in 99...

I guess if the finals MVP means that then the 2007 championship was Tony Parker singlehandedly carrying the Spurs to victory.

I guess that means Chauncy Billups is a better PG than Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul...

And John Stockton.

Simple minded fools with bush league arguments.

Heard them all before.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:15 AM

All I know is, Robinson couldn't come close to getting a ring until Duncan came.

Hey fuckstick...he was within 2 wins of beating the 95 NBA champions...while Shaq got swept by them.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:24 AM

I don't think he is soft. Looking at the posters post, I think he said he was soft because he didn't have much of a post game. If you prefer your C to play like a C then I can see why you would say that.

That soft game used to lay triple doubles on Shaq and drop 52 points on Alonzo Mourning...it also used to keep any single C defending him with their ass glued to the bench in foul trouble.

It won a scoring title, it was over a 50% FG% for a career. It lead the NBA in slam dunks, it lead the NBA in FTA. It drew double and triple teams like no other offensive game in this disucssion, aside from Wilt and Shaq.

I prefer my C get the job done...and David did that, he did it to them better than they did it to him. And this included Hakeem...

And if you guys think Hakeem was guarding Drob all by himself in 95, I suggest you

A. Rewatch those games and
B. Check out the boxscores...make you sure you look at all the FT David took.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:29 AM

lol @ not even making the Finals.

lol @ being in the same conference as the champions.

lol @ you attempting thought :lol

ShoogarBear

09-03-2009, 03:00 AM

There is a problem with your theory about assists.
In 1967-1968 the average team assist was almost 23 apg.
In 2008-2009 it is just under 21 apg.

Bingo. That's the key factor.

No way Wilt gets even close to ten assists a game.

whottt

09-03-2009, 03:53 AM

This stuff is not all up the players.

For instance...50 points per game. Theoretically, any player can score 50 points per game if they take enough shots. I mean a 50% guy scoring 25ppg just needs to take twice as many shots. It's probably not going to happen because a coach isn't going to let it happen. They aren't going to call that many plays for their bigman. And even if they do, he may not shoot the ball because he doesn't want to be a ball hog and get that rep.

Assists are similar.....in Wilt's case, those assists were as much due to his dominance as they were some great passing ability, it wasn't like he had to be Jason Kidd or Steve Nash when pretty much every other guy on his team was unguarded.

There are a few bigmen that could have averaged 10 assists per game if they focused on it...Shaq for one, Duncan for another.

And I guarantee you if they had attempted it they would have had a coach crawling up their ass telling them to stop being such a wuss and take it to the hoop. Because it would pretty much be an exercise in stupidity that didn't best utilize their talents or do the most to help their team win.

Wilt didn't have those issues really because there just wasn't the amount of talent in the league back then that there is now. It wasn't as specialized as it is now. I mean it was a no brainer he was by far the best on his team probably in every aspect. Why give it to anyone else? Were the better by giving it to anyone else? Especially since fans were paying to see him. It wasn't a big money sport, it wasn't really a mainstream sport. He was the show and as such he could do that stuff just on a whim.

I have absolutely no doubt that if Wilt were playing to day, he would be a dominant player...but he wouldn't do everything he did back then even if he was as much of a freak physically, because the game and the players are different now. You look at any sport and the one trend that all of them share, the players and roles get more and more specialized as time goes by.

He could probably average 10assists per game, any dominant player that draws multiple defenders could...but the point is they wouldn't now.

More to the point about the game being different, it wasn't that uncommon for bigmen to put up high assists totals back then, because the guards weren't as talented, the entire league wasn't as talented, and often the talent in the league was consolidated on just a handful of teams(like the Lakers and Celitcs)...so when teams had a dominant big and typical for that era guards, their bigmen would be the entire engine for the offense. Kareem, Wes Unseld, even Bill Russell had big assist years, they didn't lead the league as Wilt did, but what they did would put what any centers have done since then to shame...because they didn't have guards back then like they have now, or at least not as many.

I mean if you stick Magic Johnson on that 67 team, I gurantee you Wilt is not going to put up those same assist totals.

Different league, different time...different players, different game.

Obstructed_View

09-03-2009, 08:24 AM

You play world of warcraft.

And my death knight's ghoul is smarter than you are.

Chieflion

09-03-2009, 08:37 AM

There is more high school footage of Lebron James than there is NBA footage in the enitre decade of the 60s. And almost all of those passes are much harder than they look. Back to the basket hitting a teammate in stride to make the lay in is extremly hard.
I agree. Those passes were amazing. The way Wilt was using his long hands and reach to his advantage made it look too easy in my opinion.

ambchang

09-03-2009, 08:42 AM

Did you read the actual story? Van Exel didn't come close to 23 assists. One example was NVE passes to the wing, the guy holds the ball for a few seconds, pump fakes, 2 dribbles and the pull up. Swish. Van Exel assisted.

He gave numerous examples of how the stats were being doctored. And the reasons he gave just didn't exist back in the 60s. Getting national attention didn't really matter because there was no Sportscenter or nationally televised games 4 times a weeks or more sometimes.

I did in fact read the article, but I am not going to take a blog from some guy who admittingly wasn't doing his own job in a professional manner as any kind of evidence.

It sounds plausible, but without actually watching the game itself, I can't really draw any conclusions if this was correct or not.

BTW, I remember John Stockton's assist to Karl Malone when he broke Magic's record. Stockton passed to Malone, Malone dribbled, almost lost the ball, picked it back up, turn around and hit the jumper, and that was an assist.

I just wouldn't be surprised if they did exactly the same thing back in the 60's.

BTW, the NVE, even if it did exist, was one game out of 82, the effect of that pushing the total to 8 to 10 assists again, say, from 5 assists a game, is negligeble.

mathbzh

09-03-2009, 08:52 AM

No matter if assists are/were real one, hard to get...
Teams score less assist now, so it is not easier to have assists on your statsheet that it used to be.
Maybe only true assists were recorded, but it just mean that for whatever reason (fast pace, bad defense...) it was easier to have a real assist.

Wilt was a great passer for a center but nowdays he would not surpass his 8.6 mark.

ambchang

09-03-2009, 08:59 AM

ambchang - I would love to disscuss your problems but I do not see the purpose of doing it. Mostly because it leads to nothing and besides I have not much time explaining all the stuff.

I really hope that you mean questions … this makes me sound like some kind of psychopath.

1. dave was capable of doing AND he was doing mostly because the flashy game was allowed in 90s and it was common.
2. Wilt was not doing the things Dave was doing o the court. And I'm not talking about capabilieties as we haven't seen Chamberlain doing better athletic things then Dave. He might have been capable or not.
Other than the fact that you explicit said that he wasn’t, I don’t really get what you are trying to get out of. You said:

He was capable of doing much more then Wilt.

Does that not speak directly to capabilities?

3. the thing you do not understand about Bolt is that we are not disscussing who was the best athlete that played basketball (well maybe you do but I'm not).

Really? Aren’t we talking about the most athletic center to ever play in the NBA? Seriously, what are you trying to argue? You seem to just jump all over the place whenever you please.

4. Quit that alleyoop shit it gets boring. You gonna to bang it all the time for meaningless reason, making it a stupid argument.

A reminder for you, you came up with the alleyoops example, and you came up with arguments to refute it. It almost makes you look schizophrenic.

5. To make it as simple as I can - Wilt was not as quick as Dave, Wilt was not that plastic (I would like to see him dunk a 360 he would probably do it but what style?), Wilt was stronger then Admiral, Wilt was not that fluid around the basket with his moves.
6. I don't know what else is not clear ... I might get back to it tomorrow

Dave was probably quicker than Wilt, because I don’t think anybody was as quick as Dave at the center position, or even the PF position. Wilt was plenty elastic around the basket, the way he controlled the basketball around the rim requires a high level of agility and control.

I doubt that anybody is trying to argue that Wilt out-classes Robinson in every single athletic measure, but overall, as an athlete, there really shouldn’t be any questions that Wilt was the most athletic big man to ever play in the NBA.

kingmalaki

09-03-2009, 10:35 AM

Individuals don't win championships, teams do. If you don't have a team good enough to win, it doesn't matter how great an idividual is......

This is true. But the poster noted how Robinson didn’t have teammates to take over the game. The star is supposed to take over the game…that’s all I’m saying.

One player can be taken away...Wilt got taken away, Duncan has been taken away, Shaq has been taken away, David got taken away.

Those players weren’t always taken away though. At some point in time, they came through and delivered no matter what. Duncan is a prime example. The team that he won with in 2003….not that great of a team. Robinson would not have won with that squad. Robinson has more of a history of faltering in the playoffs (his individual play) then stepping up and doing more.

And none of these guys played for shiittier teams year in and year out than David Robinson did. Especially at the guard positions.

Robinson had a better team in 95 than Duncan had in 2003. As much as you want to discount his teammates, it was his man going off for almost 40 a night that caused them to lose that series.

And truthfully, not all of Robinson’s teams were “that bad”. They may not have all been title worthy, but they weren’t complete wastelands of garbage. For most of those playoff losses, you can point to a decrease in his production. Here are a few examples:

The 91 team had Cummings, Anderson, Elliott and Strickland. They lost 3-1 to a #7 seed that only won 44 games. There is no reason Robinson’s numbers should not have increased dramatically against the Warriors. They didn’t necessarily decrease, but they didn’t get much better…which is suprising considering the frontcourt he was facing.

The 93 team had Elliott, Carr and Dale Ellis. They lost to the Suns 4-2, and Barkley basically played Robinson to a standstill. Actually, you can argue that Barkley took over in the last two games. In Game 5 he had 36 and 12 (Robinson had 24 and 8). In the elimination game he had 28 and 21 (Robinson had 22 and 14, on 40% shooting…this against a Suns team with no real center). Barkley only shot 42% in the final game, but he had 21 boards. That’s an example of a star taking over. Robinson’s playoff numbers basically matched his regular season numbers again, but his FG% dropped from 50% to 47%. And IIRC, wasn't this the series where Barkley hit a game winner in Robinson's eye? I may be wrong on that one....

The 94 team won 55 games, behind Robinson’s monster season (30, 11, 5, 3.3 on 51%). They lost 3-1 to the Jazz, where Robinson’s numbers dropped to 20 and 10 on 41%. That’s a huge decrease. You can say he had crap teammates, but those teammates were good enough to win 55 games with. The difference is Robinson played much worse. You can argue that he got outplayed by a PF for the 2nd year in a row (Malone put up 29 and 13 that series…he only shot 41% but he got to the line 14 times a night).

We all know what happened in 95. His teammates had nothing to do with him letting Hakeem almost drop 40 a night on him. Not to mention, he had another huge decrease in the postseason (from 28 on 53% to 25 on 45%).

Karl Malone outplayed him again in 96 (25 and 9 on 45% to 19 and 9 on 48%). He put up 25 and 12 that yr on 52%. That’s a big dip. And when the series was knotted 1-1, he had 22 combined points in the next 2 games (fouled out of one) as SA fell behind 3-1 (Malone had 54 combined points).

And then Duncan arrived. But prior to that, David Robinson got outplayed by another HOF pivot every postseason that he faced one. Don’t just point to his teammates….point to him too!!

The best PG David played with was a 3rd string PG for Houston that was waived...matter of fact, Houston didn't even make the playoffs one year they had AJ.

Didn’t he play with Rod Strickland?

Why in the fuck didn't Hakeem step up then? What about the other 16 years of his career he didn't win the title? I guess he just didn't feel like stepping up then...

Hakeem did step up…twice. I believe in his two titles he outplayed 3 HOF pivots along the way. I don’t know what more you can ask a center to do than slap around Ewing, Robinson and Shaq on the way to repeat championships.

polandprzem

09-03-2009, 10:48 AM

I really hope that you mean questions … this makes me sound like some kind of psychopath.
GMAB man :)

Other than the fact that you explicit said that he wasn’t, I don’t really get what you are trying to get out of. You said:

Does that not speak directly to capabilities?

To me really it doesn't in a meaning that I tried to explain.
Dave showed much more on the court IMO

As far as athletic goes you can't just measure it like that, that's why people got different opinions. So all that disscussion to me is not worth posting.

Really? Aren’t we talking about the most athletic center to ever play in the NBA? Seriously, what are you trying to argue? You seem to just jump all over the place whenever you please.

Hey, there is a difference between the things you can do out of the court and on the court.
As I said before I'm comparing those two players from basketball point of view. Not othr aspects like high jumps and track speed. Because it does not mean much when you can't translate it well to the asketball court.

All my saying is to look what these guys were doing while they were playing. Not how great athletes they were off the court.
Maybe it's not a correct thinking but damn once again athlete does not = best basketball athlete.

Being capable is just another stuff - and you try to convince me to your points of seing it.
Maybe my english is not good enough, but
was capable of doing and was doing
was capable od doing and was not doing

I maybe made some mistake right there

A reminder for you, you came up with the alleyoops example, and you came up with arguments to refute it. It almost makes you look schizophrenic.
I'm glad you said almost ;p

When I will get back home I will watch a game. I will gonna see Wilts athletics on the screen of my tv. Then I will put some game with Dave.
Then I will say SHIT and I will go to bed.

kingmalaki

09-03-2009, 10:49 AM

I prefer my C get the job done...and David did that, he did it to them better than they did it to him. And this included Hakeem...

But that’s the thing….he didn’t get the job done. The other centers you noted did.

And in case you missed it the first time, I don't think Robinson was soft. I just think he didn't have a post game, which seemed to hurt him in the postseason when things slow down.

whottt

09-03-2009, 11:59 AM

This is true. But the poster noted how Robinson didn’t have teammates to take over the game. The star is supposed to take over the game…that’s all I’m saying.

And what you are saying is over simplified...the star steps up and dominates and get his teamates open by drawing multiple defenders, then the teamates step up and punish the other team for using multiple defenders on their guy, then the star steps us. David never had anyone that punished the team for doubling him.

AJ had no perimeter game, Vinny Del Negro was a second rate player who would not have started on any of Hakeem's, Kareem's, Shaq's or Wilt's teams.

Those players weren’t always taken away though. At some point in time, they came through and delivered no matter what.

Yeah when they were on teams good enough to where they could.

Duncan is a prime example. The team that he won with in 2003….not that great of a team. Robinson would not have won with that squad. Robinson has more of a history of faltering in the playoffs (his individual play) then stepping up and doing more.

That's because David's teams were comprised of of backups and also rans and that 2003 team was full of guys that stepped up.

Robinson had a better team in 95 than Duncan had in 2003.

You are fucking insane.

As much as you want to discount his teammates, it was his man going off for almost 40 a night that caused them to lose that series.

He had no help on the defensive end....Hakeem went off on the Celtics, how come the Rockets didn't win a title then?

And truthfully, not all of Robinson’s teams were “that bad”. They may not have all been title worthy, but they weren’t complete wastelands of garbage.

Oh yes they fucking were. Especially on the offensive end.

For most of those playoff losses, you can point to a decrease in his production. Here are a few examples:

The 91 team had Cummings, Anderson, Elliott and Strickland. They lost 3-1 to a #7 seed that only won 44 games. There is no reason Robinson’s numbers should not have increased dramatically against the Warriors. They didn’t necessarily decrease, but they didn’t get much better…which is suprising considering the frontcourt he was facing.[/quot]

and if you check out the numbers for that series you will see David Robinson shot at a FG% that is higher than any ever totalled by Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan or Kareem in a playoff series, and that's when they started doubling him, and of the rest of his career he never had anyone to help carry the offensive load, and you either lying or stupid you attempt to claim those other centers won championships without the same things David lacked.

The 93 team had Elliott, Carr and Dale Ellis. They lost to the Suns 4-2, and Barkley basically played Robinson to a standstill. Actually, you can argue that Barkley took over in the last two games. In Game 5 he had 36 and 12 (Robinson had 24 and 8). In the elimination game he had 28 and 21 (Robinson had 22 and 14, on 40% shooting…this against a Suns team with no real center). Barkley only shot 42% in the final game, but he had 21 boards. That’s an example of a star taking over. Robinson’s playoff numbers basically matched his regular season numbers again, but his FG% dropped from 50% to 47%. And IIRC, wasn't this the series where Barkley hit a game winner in Robinson's eye? I may be wrong on that one....

Yes, I guesss just mysteriously started shooting 40% in the playoffs routinely, for absolutely no reason, inspite of the fact he went off for nearly 70% in a series as a second year player...

Must have been his nerves. You are stupid. And you don't understand the gane anymore now than you did 6 years ago the first time you and I had this argument.

The 94 team won 55 games, behind Robinson’s monster season (30, 11, 5, 3.3 on 51%). They lost 3-1 to the Jazz, where Robinson’s numbers dropped to 20 and 10 on 41%. That’s a huge decrease. You can say he had crap teammates, but those teammates were good enough to win 55 games with.

No they weren't...they weren't anything close to a 55 win team and it's took Robinson's insane season to win 55 games on that team.

Again, who is going to be a defensive focus on that team other than Robinson?

Vinny Del Negro?

whottt

09-03-2009, 12:02 PM

Hakeem did step up…twice. I believe in his two titles he outplayed 3 HOF pivots along the way. I don’t know what more you can ask a center to do than slap around Ewing, Robinson and Shaq on the way to repeat championships.

Uh no, Hakeem couldn't win without Cassell.

How many titles did Hakeem win before Sam Cassell got there? And after he left?

Hakeem won nothing then the Rockets draft Cassell and he wins 2 titles then they trade him and Hakeem never wins anything again.

Hakem didn't win shit until Cassell got there.

Exactly the same as it is with Duncan and Robinson.

Boy is that hard to do.

And don't you fucking tell me a guy who at various times played with Scottie Pippen, Clyde Drexler, Ralph Sampson, and Charles Barkley, not to mention Robert Horry...didn't hve better teamates than David Robinson.

Ditto Stockton and Malone, those two guys had each other for their entire careers and didn't win shit.

Wilt won his title w Hal Geer...Kareem didn't win shit without Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson, Shaq didn't win shit without Kobe Bryant or Dwayne Wade...

Where is Robinson's guy like that? Where the fuck is it, if you think it's Vinny Del Negro or Avery Johnson, you are fucking stupid.

And you are rigth, he did play with Rod Strickland, the guy who threw the ball away on the pivotal play in Robinson rookie season when he would have dethroned the eventual conference champions.

David Robinson's playoff numbers were great his first 2 years in the league, they stopped being great when he started getting career backup scrubs as his starting guards....

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 01:23 PM

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 01:28 PM

Here's some more on Wilt.

NBA.com: You've been with the NBA since day 1, 1946-47. Who is the greatest player you ever saw?

Harvey Pollack: Wilt Chamberlain is without a doubt the greatest and the NBA record book proves it. Wilt holds records for a minimum of 130 different categories.

People forget who he is because fans today never saw him play. For instance, a triple-double-double -- there isn't anybody since Wilt did this in 1968 that has come close to getting 20 points, 20 rebounds and 20 assists in a game. No one has come close to Wilt's mark of 55 rebounds in a game. The closest someone got to Wilt's 100-point game was Kobe Bryant, who hit for 81.

Plus, name me a center who has led the league in assists like Wilt did in 1967-68? No one. Also, Wilt played every minute of every game in the 1961-62 season, including overtime, except one because he was thrown out of the game with three personal fouls.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/03/08/Harvey.Pollack.20090308/

whottt

09-03-2009, 01:35 PM

When arguing Duncan vs Robinson, remember one thing. Robinson is arguably a Top 10 big man ever. Duncan is arguably a top 10 PLAYER ever. This coming from a guy who grew up watching DRob play from day 1.

Duncan had a quadruple double, but Duncan had his near quad-double on the biggest stage, the title clinching game of the Finals. Find me a game where DRob absolutely dominated the court, and carried his team the way Duncan did in 2003. In a span of 3 years, Duncan won over 200 games.

That's fucking funny, because I distincly remember Duncan getting a royal buttfucking the previosu 2 years and the Spurs doing virtual roster turnover.

Did he just not care as much in 2001 and 2002, and 2004 and 2006 and 2008-09?

Stupid fucking logic.

All you have to do is watch that run and you will countless times when teamates stepped up to win games that might not have been won without them.

And Duncan, then and pretty much now,. was never the guy drawing the toughest defensive asignment...

Pop doesn't even let Duncan guard Dirk Nowitski.

Duncan has a career winning percentage of over 70% in the regular season. Duncan did things Robinson could NEVER do on the court, and DRob will be the absolute first person to tell you that.

Name one fucking thing Duncan has done on that court that Drob didn't.

You cannot win an individual comparison between David Robinson and Tim Duncan...in fact about the only guys that might win that comparison against David are Wilt and Kareem.

Drob is the guy that lead the league in blocks, rebounding, scoring etc.

I mean if you are telling me you'd take Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson over Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili, you will not find a fucking person in the league that will agree with you.

Wilt Chamberlain

So what about the year Wilt didn't make the playoffs and had a losing record?

I mean if Duncan can win titles all by himself surely the greatest athlete in history can make the fucking playoffs...or at least hit 500.

And remember, teamates don't count, the great ones just don't feel like winning titles every year.

Fucking
Morons

whottt

09-03-2009, 01:43 PM

I mean hell Ducan has only had Manu...it's not like Manu's ever done shit like beat Pop and the fucking Dream Team, with Duncan on it, in the Olympics or anything. Fucking scrub is pretty much interchangeable with Vinny Del Negro.

da_suns_fan

09-03-2009, 01:52 PM

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 01:55 PM

Name one fucking thing Duncan has done on that court that Drob didn't.

Finals

MVP

3 Times

Eat it.

I love DRob, but when Duncan was getting "butt fucked" by Shaq in 2001 and 2002, wasn't Robinson on the team too?

In 2004 Duncan hits the game winning shot to basically take down the Lakers, until Derek Fisher hits an impossible (and by impossible I mean not allowed by the laws of physics) shot to win the game.

In 2006 he had two bad ankles and still carried his team to a game 7 against Dallas, after being down 3-1 and forced overtime in that Game 7. And if Gino doesn't pull that stupid foul on Dirk, they win.

In 2008 Duncan basically destroys the Suns will to live with a 3 pointer to extend the game. He leads his team to the WCF where they finally meet a team that's better than them, though through no fault of Duncan.

2008 WCF
Game 1 30 and 18
Game 2 12 and 16 (Spurs lost by 30 and Duncan still grabs 16 boards)
Game 3 (The Gino Game) 22 and 21
Game 4 29 and 17
Game 5 19 and 15

I see Duncan stepping up his game except for Game 2 when the entire Spurs team sucked a big fat one.

2009
Game 1 27 and 9
Game 2 13 and 11
Game 3 4 and 2 (Spurs get their asses handed to them)
Game 4 25 and 10
Game 5 30 and 8

On two bad knees no less. One bad game, and one so-so game.

Before you question Duncan, realize the man has NEVER missed the playoffs and has only exited in the first round 1 time (this past playoffs). 70% career winning percentage as well.

I know you're a huge DRob homer, but you can't win an argument on who was a better player, Duncan or DRob.

Again, DRob was a Top 10 center of all time. Duncan is a Top 10 PLAYER of all time.

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 01:58 PM

You people are insane. Robinson had fantastic agility and coordination for his size but Dwight Howard looks and moves like he was created as part of some sort of genetic experiment.

The only other player I would put on par with Howard would be LeBron James.

Hakeem, Robinson and Shawn Kemp. All players (big men) who could do as much or more than Howard could do. Watch some games before spouting off about Lebron and Dwight.

And that was just the 90s.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:01 PM

, and DRob will be the absolute first person to tell you that.

And Duncan will be the first guy to tell you that he can't win a title without teamates, if he's feeling particularly honest, he'll even tell you he'd have left San Antonio, in a second, if they weren't surrounding him with enough talent to win a championship.

I can show David Robinson going to the Spurs and producing the biggest single season turn around in NBA history. I can show you David Robinson missing the season, and the Spurs producing the biggest negative single season turn around in NBA history.

I can show you Tim Duncan playing with...

Well, David Robinson first of all...the only guy besides Kareem to lead the league in scoring, rebounding and blocks, the first player in NBA history to finish in the top 5 in blocks, steals and rebounds, the only guy other than Michael Jordan to win a scoring title and DPOY, the only center Wilt to score 70 points in a game, the only C besides Hakeem and Nate Thurmond(Wilt's teamate) to pull down a quad double....

If you think that's a typical resume for a frontline sidekick, you are fucking stupid.

Manu Ginobili - All Star, Olympic MVP. One of only two players to win a Euroleague, NBA and Olympic title.

Tony Parker - perennial All Star - Finals MVP.

Bruce Bowen - perennial DPOY candidate, made 6 or 7 all NBA defensive teams.

Robert Horry - the only non-Celtic with 7 championships.

Steve Kerr - the greatest 3 point shooter in NBA history.

This doesn't even include guys like Stephen Jackson.

More importantly, Duncan had the same coach every year of his career.

David averaged about a coach per year.

There is no one like that that played with David Robinson outside of Sean Elliott who made two All Star Games but developed kidney problems, Terry Cummings, who wrecked his knee, and Dennis Rodman(who probably didn't pull a single minute on Karl Malone or Hakeem Olajuwon).

David Robinson never had a guard that made an All Star Game at any point in their careers. Don't tell me that is true of Shaq, and Hakeem, and Kareem, and Wilt.

Because it fucking isn't true. Period.

da_suns_fan

09-03-2009, 02:10 PM

Hakeem, Robinson and Shawn Kemp. All players (big men) who could do as much or more than Howard could do. Watch some games before spouting off about Lebron and Dwight.

And that was just the 90s.

Im guessing you werent actally around in the 90s to watch any of those guys.

Hakeem was not a freak athlete. Kemp was but he didnt have the size of Howard. He's closer to Amare Stoudemire. We already discussed why D-Rob doesnt touch Howard when it comes athleticism.

Try again.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:12 PM

Finals

MVP

3 Times

Eat it.

Chauncy Billups Finals MVP - Eat it.
Tony Parker Finals MVP on Duncan's team - Eat it.

David never played with a finals MVP either. Eat that while you're at it.

I love DRob, but when Duncan was getting "butt fucked" by Shaq in 2001 and 2002, wasn't Robinson on the team too?p

No no no...if Drob doesn't count in wins, he doesn't count in losses either you double standard using POS.

Drob doesn't matter, Duncan did it all by himself.

No one else matters.

In 2004 Duncan hits the game winning shot to basically take down the Lakers, until Derek Fisher hits an impossible (and by impossible I mean not allowed by the laws of physics) shot to win the game.

In 2006 he had two bad ankles and still carried his team to a game 7 against Dallas, after being down 3-1 and forced overtime in that Game 7. And if Gino doesn't pull that stupid foul on Dirk, they win.

But what about 2005 when Duncan is choking ass and giving the game away at the FT line and Horry saves his ass?

In 2008 Duncan basically destroys the Suns will to live with a 3 pointer to extend the game. He leads his team to the WCF where they finally meet a team that's better than them, though through no fault of Duncan.

2008 WCF
Game 1 30 and 18
Game 2 12 and 16 (Spurs lost by 30 and Duncan still grabs 16 boards)
Game 3 (The Gino Game) 22 and 21
Game 4 29 and 17
Game 5 19 and 15

I see Duncan stepping up his game except for Game 2 when the entire Spurs team sucked a big fat one.

2009
Game 1 27 and 9
Game 2 13 and 11
Game 3 4 and 2 (Spurs get their asses handed to them)
Game 4 25 and 10
Game 5 30 and 8

On two bad knees no less. One bad game, and one so-so game.

Before you question Duncan, realize the man has NEVER missed the playoffs and has only exited in the first round 1 time (this past playoffs). 70% career winning percentage as well.

Uh, David Robinson never missed the playoffs either. I realize he was gifted with future HOF'ers like Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson while Duncan had to carry scrubs like Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker, but still...he never missed the playoffs.

I know you're a huge DRob homer, but you can't win an argument on who was a better player, Duncan or DRob.

Again, DRob was a Top 10 center of all time. Duncan is a Top 10 PLAYER of all time.

And you use double standards...I don't have to kick your ass in a argument, you do it every fucking time you open mouth an change the importance of teamates depending on what argument you are trying to win.

Bush fucking league.

And I don't give a fuck what double standard you use, you look at who David had for teamates, and when he had them, and look at every other C that is supposed to better than he is....and you will see a huge difference in the quality of guards unless you are totally ignorant of the game.

Basically what you are saying is, there's no difference between Jerry West, Manu Ginobili, Hal Geer, Clyde Drexler, Kobe Bryant...and Vinny Del Negro.

That Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker and Sam Cassell, are just parts to be interchanged...with Avery Johnson.

That is what you are saying with that argument...I hope you realize how stupid it is once it is crystalized like that for you.

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 02:16 PM

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:24 PM

Top 10 at his position, or Top 10 player (any position) ever?

You take your pick.

Defend DRob all you want, DRob said that Duncan was better than DRob was in his prime, when Duncan was a rookie.

In 1996 the US Olympic team played against a group of college all stars. That team had Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Malone on the team. There was this one college player who gave the Dream team fits and couldn't be defended. We're talking about 5 of the greatest big men ever, and they were being schooled by a college player named Tim Duncan.

That's funny because the first time Gregg Poppovich watched Duncan play against Robisnon he said he began to regret not drafting Keith Van Horne.

I can sit here...and say pointedly, at various years in his career, David Robinson was beyond all doubt, the best scorer in the league, the best rebounder in the league, the best shotblocker in the league, the best defensive player in the league....the best dunker in the league, the best at the getting to the line in the league, the best bigman passer in the league...

Becacause beyond all doubt, he was provably the best in the league at those things.

How great? The year after Dennis Rodman was traded, David lead the league in rebounding.

You cannot say all those things about any other Center and be able to prove it, you also can't say it about Tim Duncan either. In fact you can't say he was ever the best at any one of those things, for he never lead the league in any of them.

And he also never missed the playoffs, and he also was part of the biggest positive single season turnaround, and the biggest negative season turnaround...

He also never finished lower than second place in his division, no matter what shit he was surrounded with, only 3 other players in NBA history can make that claim, Magic Johnson, Dr. J and Larry Bird.

Fuck you, and all Spurs fans that shit on David Robinson...you are the most ignorant segment of Spurfans...and I wish you guys would fuck off and die.

whottt

09-03-2009, 02:32 PM

This would be a perfect time for one of you fucksticks to say David, who lead the NBA scoring and scored 70 points in agame, not to mention has career scoring numbers equivalent to Duncan's inspite of spending the last half of his career as defensive anchor, and has a betrer career FG% than Duncan, as well as FT%...was a weak offensive player.

You disrepect the Admiral, the guy who saved this franchise, including keeping Duncan from leaving(I guess Duncan was concerned about his teamates), as he is going to the HOF, I going to stick your ignorant, unknowledgable, double standard arguments, as far up your stupid fucking ass as they will go.

Go fuck yourself, and stop using David's classiness and unselfishness to diminish him...

You colossal ASSHOLE.

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 02:39 PM

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 02:48 PM

Ask any expert, player, coach and knowledgeable fan out there who's a better player and Duncan would win hands down.

It want to use stats, Duncan stats rose in the playoffs. If you want an important number, use wins. Duncan trumps him there.

Duncan has won titles without DRob, while DRob never got it down before Duncan. Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play and is a Top 10 player ever. This isn't up for debate.

DRob is a top 10 center and is a top 50 player ever. Big difference.

Oh and DRob missed the playoffs in 1996, the year they won the lottery and selected Duncan.

That's funny because the first time Gregg Poppovich watched Duncan play against Robisnon he said he began to regret not drafting Keith Van Horne.

First off, spell his name right. Second, if you believe that for a second, I got some beach front property in Kansas to sell you.

Fuck you, and all Spurs fans that shit on David Robinson...you are the most ignorant segment of Spurfans...and I wish you guys would fuck off and die.

Who's hating on Robinson. I love DRob. Again, he's the first player I remember watching and I followed him from day 1. DRob was a phenomenal player and a better human being 100 times over.

But that doesn't change the fact that Duncan is a better player, period. Your ignorance and outright refusal to acknowledge what an absolute legend Tim Duncan is reeks of disrespect.

Look on the court and realize that while watching DRob was a treat, watching Duncan play may be a once in a generation deal. We are watching a Top 10 player ever. That doesn't happen often. Stop being an asshole and enjoy the moment.

kingmalaki

09-03-2009, 02:54 PM

And what you are saying is over simplified...the star steps up and dominates and get his teamates open by drawing multiple defenders, then the teamates step up and punish the other team for using multiple defenders on their guy, then the star steps us. David never had anyone that punished the team for doubling him.

Stars still produce when they are doubled. I gave you multiple examples showing the decrease in Robinson’s production come playoff time. You are blaming his teammates for not hitting shots, yet not blaming him.

Additionally, you keep listing the “scrub” teammates, yet fail to realize that some of them were actually good (i.e. Elliott, Cummings, Strickland, Ellis, etc). You also overlook that the team won plenty of games during the regular season when Robinson was dominating, yet they lost when his production took a dip in the postseason. They lost as he was getting outplayed by other bigs, some being PF’s. Was he not doubled and the like in the regular season?

Yeah when they were on teams good enough to where they could.

His team was good enough in 95. The main difference in that series is that he couldn’t stop his counterpart from dropping near 40 a night on him. His team was also good enough to win some of those other playoff series, even if they weren’t good enough to win a title. But he got outplayed by Barkley and Malone 3 times and lost to a lower-seeded Warriors team with no big-man. What do his teammates have to do with him getting outplayed by another great big everytime he faced one in the postseason??

He had no help on the defensive end....Hakeem went off on the Celtics, how come the Rockets didn't win a title then?

You shouldn’t need help to not allow a dude to drop near 40 a night on you. You are glossing over the reason why they lost. Robinson could not stop Hakeem from torching him. And Hakeem didn’t drop near 40 a night against Boston in 86. Most dudes don’t drop near 40 a night in a series, especially not against a dominant defender.

The rest of your post doesn’t really address anything I typed. Your argument would hold more merit if Robinson’s numbers didn’t get worse in those playoff series, but they did…or if he was the best big on the floor….but he wasn’t. He is a part of the blame as well. It wasn’t all his fault and he didn’t have stud teams for most seasons…but it’s not like he was playing much better and just having his teammates fail him. He was throwing up crap games too, hence the fall in his production (that you also overlooked). When he was the star leading the team, he got outplayed by 3 other HOF bigs in 4 losing playoff series.

And don't you fucking tell me a guy who at various times played with Scottie Pippen, Clyde Drexler, Ralph Sampson, and Charles Barkley, not to mention Robert Horry...didn't hve better teamates than David Robinson.

All of the guys you mentioned except for Sampson & Horry were past their prime when they played with Hakeem, and Hakeem was past his when he played with all of them besides Drexler in 95 & 96. He didn’t play with Sampson for long either. And Sean Elliott is just as good as Robert Horry. Robinson had a team just as good in 95. He just couldn’t guard his man.

And I would gladly trade all of those guys for Tim Duncan by the way….

Ditto Stockton and Malone, those two guys had each other for their entire careers and didn't win shit.

What does Stockton have to do with Malone outplaying Robinson in two playoff series?

Name one fucking thing Duncan has done on that court that Drob didn't.

Have a reliable post game in the playoffs, when it’s needed most. Or how about be the best big-man on the floor in a playoff series, against another top big. When has Robinson ever done that? Please name one occasion? Hit a game-winner in the postseason. Beat a team with more talent like he did in 2003 (granted Robinson was on that team too…the older version). Win a Finals MVP.

I can sit here...and say pointedly, at various years in his career, David Robinson was beyond all doubt, the best scorer in the league, the best rebounder in the league, the best shotblocker in the league, the best defensive player in the league....the best dunker in the league, the best at the getting to the line in the league, the best bigman passer in the league...

Can you say why that never translated to the postseason? Can you say one playoff series where he was clearly the best big on the floor, when matched up against another top pivot?

whottt

09-03-2009, 03:32 PM

Ask any expert, player, coach and knowledgeable fan out there who's a better player and Duncan would win hands down.

I don't give a fuck, at some point only one guy in the world knew the Earth was round and everyone else thought it was flat...

Your point?

The facts bear out everything I claim, that is the point.

It want to use stats, Duncan stats rose in the playoffs.

Not always....David Robinson's numbers were better in the regular season that most of the other guys...and David's numbers didn't always get worse, his first two teams, which were the best he played on guardwise, and coaching wise,. they went up...

In fact, Wilt, nor Shaq, nor Duncan, nor Hakeem, ever put up 68% shooting for an entire playoff series. That was a second year player...and it's also why he saw nothing but a shitload of double and triple for the rest of his career as a star(that, and he shitty guards).

If you want an important number, use wins. Duncan trumps him there.

Actually, he really doesn't, Duncan's teams showed the abilithy to win without him. They've even had a couple of seasons where they had a winning record when in games he missed, that was never the case with David, not in any single season of his career as a star...and the year he was hurt is the biggest negative single season turnaround in NBA history.

Fact.

Duncan has won titles without DRob

True he has...but he hasn't won any without All Star Guards on his team(aside from the one he won with David), and neither did Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq or Wilt...

Yet you expect David Robinson too....

while DRob never got it down before Duncan.

Neither would Duncan or Shaq or Wilt or Kareem or Hakeem if they were asked to win with a backcourt of AJ and Vinny.

Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play and is a Top 10 player ever. This isn't up for debate.

DRob is a top 10 center and is a top 50 player ever. Big difference.

Oh and DRob missed the playoffs in 1996, the year they won the lottery and selected Duncan.

I figured you were a badnwaggoner who never saw the Admiral play...and now I know for sure you didn't.

First off, spell his name right. Second, if you believe that for a second, I got some beach front property in Kansas to sell you.

Who's hating on Robinson. I love DRob. Again, he's the first player I remember watching and I followed him from day 1. DRob was a phenomenal player and a better human being 100 times over.

No you don't lying fucking bitch...you have done nothing but post ignorant uninformed bullshit against David in this entire thread...as bad or worse than the Rocket and Jazz fans participating in it...and you aren't the only one.

But that doesn't change the fact that Duncan is a better player, period. Your ignorance and outright refusal to acknowledge what an absolute legend Tim Duncan is reeks of disrespect.

Look on the court and realize that while watching DRob was a treat, watching Duncan play may be a once in a generation deal. We are watching a Top 10 player ever. That doesn't happen often. Stop being an asshole and enjoy the moment.

Why don't you watch it and get the fuck out of threads discussing David Robinson....since you obviously don't know jack shit and have a very mundane knowledge of the game that is pretty much shared by any fan that just started watching it and read some assholes opinion on Drob.

And BTW, I remember a few years ago, I watched Amare Stoudemire take Duncan out to the woodshed and lay a dominating asswhuppin on him mano a mano, as bad if not worse than what happened to Drob against Hakeem...

Difference? Ducan's team won.

I watched Dirk turn into Wilt Chamberlain against us....

You know why? Because he had guards that won Olympic and Finals MVPs, instead of guards that were outshot from 3 in the postseason for a career by Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic.

I don't give a fuck what you say...they all had better guards than David did, and I can fucking prove it, all day long, 100 times out of 100 times.

Fact.
Fact.
Fact.
Fact.

So instead of typing a bunch of bullshit,. why don't you say, there's no difference between, Tony Parker, Hal Geer, Kobe Byrant, Dwayne Wade, and Vinny and AJ...

Because that is what you are saying.

big daddy russ

09-03-2009, 04:00 PM

Im guessing you werent actally around in the 90s to watch any of those guys.

Hakeem was not a freak athlete. Kemp was but he didnt have the size of Howard. He's closer to Amare Stoudemire. We already discussed why D-Rob doesnt touch Howard when it comes athleticism.

Try again.

I was around.

Hakeem was an absolute freak. He was a forward in a seven-footer's body. He could dribble, drive, rebound over people bigger and taller, the whole nine yards.

Athleticism is about more than just how high you can jump and how fast you can run. In high school, I had a 29" vertical and ran a legit 4.84 forty.

I, however, was NOT athletic. Even at the high school level.

I had the hands of an 8' Polish mongoloid, the body control of his twin sister, and the motor skills of your average two-year-old. All reasons why I played LB and not DB (didn't have the footwork and couldn't turn my hips) or an offensive skill position (no ability to catch anything other than a softly-tossed screen pass... and even that gave me occassional difficulties).

Therefore, I never did anything other than sit at the end of the bench on the basketball team and wasn't even a decent baseball player. I had handles and could defend the quickest guys on the court, but couldn't put a tennis ball through a hole in the ground.

That's why guys like Michael Wilson (who is a hell of an athlete in his own right) are athletic enough to play professional sports, but aren't necessarily athletic enough to play at the highest level of professional sports. Motor skills, coordination, body control, and a host of other things combine with leaping ability and speed to form someone's athleticism.

Which brings us back to Hakeem. Maybe you've forgotten what he looked like in action, so here he is in slow mo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmLR_VgbqAA

You can see his leaping ability throughout the video. Great example of his body control, hands, and overall coordination with the rebound at around the 32-second mark. Watch his footwork at the 40-second mark... spins right around Ewing while accelerating. At about 1:06 you get to see what I mean when I say he was a forward playing in the body of a seven-footer. At 2:30, watch him destroy Buck Williams, a quick and savvy man-on defender in his own right (I don't know what year that's from, but Williams was one of the best post defenders of the 80's and early- to mid-90's).

At 2:32, there's the Dream Shake. Second-most effective pivot move in NBA history... not because of the move itself, but because of the efficiency, quickness, and footwork of the guy performing it (kinda like the Sky Hook, the most effective move in NBA history).

Now was Hakeem as athletic as D-Rob or Wilt? I won't go that far. Wilt's number one in my book, Rob's probably somewhere in the 2-4 range. What I will say is this; either...

1. ...you don't really understand the whole concept of athleticism, or...

2. ...you didn't watch enough of the Rockets back in Hakeem's heyday to truly appreciate the guy, or...

3. ...you just don't remember how great Hakeem really was.

I'm willing to bet it's just number three. He's easily forgettable in the era of Jordan.

Back to the original Robinson/Howard debate, DeJuanitoBlair has a great YouTube clip of Robinson driving the length of the open court against Jordan's Bulls in his sig. Watch the speed, ball control, and ability to change directions ever so slightly to pull up and back over Jordan at the end of the drive. This is the type of move you typically see from a wing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

I think you've forgotten a big part of NBA history if you're putting Howard and LeBron in the argument but leaving out the Admiral, Kobe, Dr. J, Dominique, Jordan, Wilt, Vince Carter (pre-injuries), Gerald Wallace, Tom Chambers, David Thompson, Kenyon Martin (pre-injuries), and a whole host of other guys. Sure, both Howard and the King belong in the argument, but they aren't necessarily at the head of the class.

PS: The most athletic guy in the NBA is neither Howard or LeBron... or Shawn Marion, Kobe, or D-Wade. The most athletic NBAer is James White, a rarely-used scrub who saw a little time with the Rockets in last year's playoffs. He's the exception to the "Michael Wilson Rule."

Brazil

09-03-2009, 04:03 PM

How this thread turned into a David / Tim argument ?

whottt

09-03-2009, 04:06 PM

Because of stupid fuckwads that can't tell the difference between AJ and Vinny, and Tony and Manu...not to mention Oscar Robertson Jerry West and the like.

Whether the ashole I am arguing with in this thread realize it or not...Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili will both one day be in the HOF.

Along with Hal Geer
And Jerry West
And Clyde Drexler
And Oscar Robertson
And Magic Johnson
And Kobe Bryant
And Dwayne Wade.,,,

I realize those guys are no AJ and Vinny, but hey, it just stands testament to how great Wilt and Kareem and all them were that they could carry scrub guards like that to titles.

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 04:12 PM

How this thread turned into a David / Tim argument ?

I mentioned Tim in a post, and Whott took that as an afront to David Robinson.

It's quite ridiculous really, but just goes to show how blind some homers are. To claim that David was a better player than Tim is ludicrous.

Winning is all that matters and Tim won, plain and simple. No photo captures the Tim era and his career better than this one.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f4Fo_GlfJs8/SXdN-erPkEI/AAAAAAAABzM/-Dyvv2yejag/s400/tim+duncan+bragging.jpg

Maybe these, but definitely not as succinctly as the first.

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/25spur.jpg
http://www.bobrosato.com/content/photos/92004743-01.jpg
http://nbcsportsmedia.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050623/050623_spurs_celebrate_vmed_10pm.widec.jpg
http://nbcsportsmedia.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070614/DCelebApp/070614_duncanTrophy_vmed_10p.widec.jpg

And in all but one, both of those trophies are Tim's.

whottt

09-03-2009, 04:17 PM

It's almost like he's proud to be about as ignorant of the game of basketball as it's humanly possible to be and still know what one is...

I can just see this dude as a coach...dump this Magic Johnson POS and get me Vinny Del Negro.., we've got Kareem and if he feels like winning a title, he'll just step up and win it, because that's how championships re won. And that's all there is to it. Those Worthy and Robertson guys are just interchangeable parts.

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 04:21 PM

How this thread turned into a David / Tim argument ?

Someone mentioned that Robinson didn't win before Duncan came along. Whott acted like someone called his daughter ugly. I defended the greastes Spur ever and Whott began to act like someone called his wife fat to boot.

Sorry for the sidetrack. Then again, I think we've shown without a doubt that Wilt was the most athletic big man ever.

Just like showing how great a winner Tim was also show's why he's better than DRob.

One final stat. The Spurs have the best winning percentage of any team in the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL since Tim arrived. Period.

kingmalaki

09-03-2009, 04:23 PM

I was around.

Hakeem was an absolute freak. He was a forward in a seven-footer's body. He could dribble, drive, rebound over people bigger and taller, the whole nine yards.

Athleticism is about more than just how high you can jump and how fast you can run. In high school, I had a 29" vertical and ran a legit 4.84 forty.

I, however, was NOT athletic. Even at the high school level.

I had the hands of an 8' Polish mongoloid, the body control of his twin sister, and the motor skills of your average two-year-old. All reasons why I played LB and not DB (didn't have the footwork and couldn't turn my hips) or an offensive skill position (no ability to catch anything other than a softly-tossed screen pass... and even that gave me occassional difficulties).

Therefore, I never did anything other than sit at the end of the bench on the basketball team and wasn't even a decent baseball player. I had handles and could defend the quickest guys on the court, but couldn't put a tennis ball through a hole in the ground.

That's why guys like Michael Wilson (who is a hell of an athlete in his own right) are athletic enough to play professional sports, but aren't necessarily athletic enough to play at the highest level of professional sports. Motor skills, coordination, body control, and a host of other things combine with leaping ability and speed to form someone's athleticism.

Which brings us back to Hakeem. Maybe you've forgotten what he looked like in action, so here he is in slow mo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmLR_VgbqAA

You can see his leaping ability throughout the video. Great example of his body control, hands, and overall coordination with the rebound at around the 32-second mark. Watch his footwork at the 40-second mark... spins right around Ewing while accelerating. At about 1:06 you get to see what I mean when I say he was a forward playing in the body of a seven-footer. At 2:30, watch him destroy Buck Williams, a quick and savvy man-on defender in his own right (I don't know what year that's from, but Williams was one of the best post defenders of the 80's and early- to mid-90's).

At 2:32, there's the Dream Shake. Second-most effective pivot move in NBA history... not because of the move itself, but because of the efficiency, quickness, and footwork of the guy performing it (kinda like the Sky Hook, the most effective move in NBA history).

Now was Hakeem as athletic as D-Rob or Wilt? I won't go that far. Wilt's number one in my book, Rob's probably somewhere in the 2-4 range. What I will say is this; either...

1. ...you don't really understand the whole concept of athleticism, or...

2. ...you didn't watch enough of the Rockets back in Hakeem's heyday to truly appreciate the guy, or...

3. ...you just don't remember how great Hakeem really was.

I'm willing to bet it's just number three. He's easily forgettable in the era of Jordan.

Back to the original Robinson/Howard debate, DeJuanitoBlair has a great YouTube clip of Robinson driving the length of the open court against Jordan's Bulls in his sig. Watch the speed, ball control, and ability to change directions ever so slightly to pull up and back over Jordan at the end of the drive. This is the type of move you typically see from a wing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

I think you've forgotten a big part of NBA history if you're putting Howard and LeBron in the argument but leaving out the Admiral, Kobe, Dr. J, Dominique, Jordan, Wilt, Vince Carter (pre-injuries), Gerald Wallace, Tom Chambers, David Thompson, Kenyon Martin (pre-injuries), and a whole host of other guys. Sure, both Howard and the King belong in the argument, but they aren't necessarily at the head of the class.

PS: The most athletic guy in the NBA is neither Howard or LeBron... or Shawn Marion, Kobe, or D-Wade. The most athletic NBAer is James White, a rarely-used scrub who saw a little time with the Rockets in last year's playoffs. He's the exception to the "Michael Wilson Rule."

Nice post. Way to rep for the old school.

WhotttDynasty

09-03-2009, 04:29 PM

If David Robinson had had a halfway-decent supporting cast, he would have won more titles than Michael Jordan.

If you say otherwise, you are evil.

You are a damned evil scum-sucking bastard.

Period.

David Robinson was far more polished than Tim Duncan could ever hope to be. FAR. He did things that not even GOD could do. In fact, I bet David Robinson IS God.

I mean, compare David to Jesus. David is far better-spoken, has musical talent, is the best athlete ever to play sports, runs a school for disadvantaged children, and has enormous biceps that make me question my sexuality.

If you were God, would you come as some Jewish peasant who got himself killed, or as David Robinson? There is no question. None.

If you say otherwise it is because you are depraved and probably molest children. I hate you.

WhotttDynasty

09-03-2009, 04:31 PM

Look at who David Robinson played with.

Avery Johnson.

Seriously.

Avery Johnson is a combination of the dwarf guy from Diffrent Strokes and Brer freaking Rabbit.

Who wins a championship with that guy?

Huh?

Just shut up. You have nothing to say and you are an idiot.

whottt

09-03-2009, 04:34 PM

If David Robinson had had a halfway-decent supporting cast, he would have won more titles than Michael Jordan.

True.

If you say otherwise, you are evil.

And stupid. Never forget the stupid part.

You are a damned evil scum-sucking bastard.

And a completely fucking ignorant one.

Period.

Agree.

David Robinson was far more polished than Tim Duncan could ever hope to be.

False. David Robinson probably spent less time in the gym poloishing his games than any player mentioned in this thread. Doesn't matter.

FAR. He did things that not even GOD could do. In fact, I bet David Robinson IS God.

I mean, compare David to Jesus. David is far better-spoken, has musical talent, is the best athlete ever to play sports, runs a school for disadvantaged children, and has enormous biceps that make me question my sexuality.

If you were God, would you come as some Jewish peasant who got himself killed, or as David Robinson? There is no question. None.

If you say otherwise it is because you are depraved and probably molest children. I hate you.

If you think one player wins a title, you don't know shit, that argument holds less water than a sieve.

It's the stupidest argument that there is, and it's made by people that are stupid and have an oversimplified view of the game, and who will contradict themselves from their own argument the very first time someone brings up Wilt missing the playoffs or the Lakers kicking the Spurs ass in 2001. Then all of a sudden...the teamates matter

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 04:35 PM

Whott is now trying to use his trolls to help support his cause. Obvious an act of desperation. yeah, I'm done with this now.

whottt

09-03-2009, 04:36 PM

Whott is now trying to use his trolls to help support his cause. Obvious an act of desperation. yeah, I'm done with this now.

Cool....you were way too sharp for me.

whottt

09-03-2009, 04:40 PM

da_suns_fan

09-03-2009, 04:53 PM

How many times did I state that I've been watching DRob from Day 1. I absolutely remember those guys. Hakeem was strong, fast for a big guy and extremely quick off the floor. He had excellent footwork in the post and could dream shake youout of your jock (ask DRob in 1995 about that).

Let me explain sothing to you. Footwork and basketball savy is NOT athleticism. Larry Bird was a tad overweight in his hey day and could still fake out anyone and score with the best of them. Hakeem Olajuwon was not a freak athlete the way Dwight Howard and Lebron James are.

I was around.

Hakeem was an absolute freak. He was a forward in a seven-footer's body. He could dribble, drive, rebound over people bigger and taller, the whole nine yards.

Athleticism is about more than just how high you can jump and how fast you can run. In high school, I had a 29" vertical and ran a legit 4.84 forty.

I, however, was NOT athletic. Even at the high school level.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH FOR TWO PAGES (EDITED BY DSF)

I think you've forgotten a big part of NBA history if you're putting Howard and LeBron in the argument but leaving out the Admiral, Kobe, Dr. J, Dominique, Jordan, Wilt, Vince Carter (pre-injuries), Gerald Wallace, Tom Chambers, David Thompson, Kenyon Martin (pre-injuries), and a whole host of other guys. Sure, both Howard and the King belong in the argument, but they aren't necessarily at the head of the class.

Vince Carter, Kobe, Jordan, Gerald Wallace, etc arent anywhere NEAR the athlete that LeBron James is. You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. LeBron James is 6-8, 250 and hes one of the fastest players in the game. Crazy fast. To compare, Michael Jordan was 6-6 and 212 pounds. Kobe is 6-6, 205. Do you understand the significance of these measurements? LeBron James athleticism is UNHEARD of and we might need see a physcial specimen like him again for a while.

As a pure athlete, the only NBA player who comes close to LeBron is Dwight Howard who is 6'11, 265 and can dunk on a 12 foot rim. His shoulders are so big they makes his head look oddly small for his body. Just look at this picture:

http://verticaljumpzone.com/images/dwighthowarddunk.jpg

Doesnt that image look weird? Wouldnt you swear it was a 6 footer dunking on an 8 foot rim? No way a 7 footer could get that much height and dunk from that far way. TRY THIS: Imagine that its Duncan doing that. Can you even picture it?

Youre nostalgic love for Robinson is understood, but to mention him in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid. Whether its modern medicine or just a freak coincidence, we are seeing THE two greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen at the same time.

Brazil

09-03-2009, 04:54 PM

I begun to watch nba with David but at that time from France it wasn't easy, so I'm more familiar with Tim for sure.
Saying that I just feel I'm blessed to have seen two amazing athletes and human beings playing for my favorite Team. I miss the twin tower time.

whottt

09-03-2009, 05:00 PM

Whott is now trying to use his trolls to help support his cause. Obvious an act of desperation. yeah, I'm done with this now.

I can just see Nathan E's first day as Spurs GM:

Journalist: So Mr. E you've inherited a team that lost in the first round last year. What will you do differently?

Nathan Explosion: Well, first of all, I didn't inherit a team, I inherited Tim Duncan.

Journalist: Ok but you got eliminated in the first round and obviously Tim Duncan is not enough and he needs help.

Nathan Explostion: You must not have seen 2003 when the San Antonio Duncans swept through the playoffs, or be aware that Tim Duncan has 3 Finals MVPs. Tim Duncan will step up and win a title.

Journalist: Then why didn't he step up last year?

Nathan Explostion: He didn't feel like a winning a title last year. You need to understand that has a historian of the game I know what it takes to win a title, and that's Tim Duncan. My first move as GM is going to be to waive the other 13 guys on the roster as I don't see any reason to pay anyone when all you need is Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan will step up and we will win a title. It's just that simple.

Journalist: So that's it, Tim Duncan is going to step up and win you a title?

Nathan Explosion: Yes, did you not watch the 2003 playoffs or something? Can you not count finals MVP trophy's or what? Do you not know how to read a list of the greatest players of all time?

kingmalaki

09-03-2009, 05:18 PM

Hakeem was a freak athlete. You guys clearly must not have seen the early version of Olajuwon. I don't think he was as athletic as Robinson but he wasn't too far behind. Kemp was athletic as hell too....

big daddy russ

09-03-2009, 08:40 PM

Vince Carter, Kobe, Jordan, Gerald Wallace, etc arent anywhere NEAR the athlete that LeBron James is. You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. LeBron James is 6-8, 250 and hes one of the fastest players in the game. Crazy fast. To compare, Michael Jordan was 6-6 and 212 pounds. Kobe is 6-6, 205. Do you understand the significance of these measurements? LeBron James athleticism is UNHEARD of and we might need see a physcial specimen like him again for a while.

As a pure athlete, the only NBA player who comes close to LeBron is Dwight Howard who is 6'11, 265 and can dunk on a 12 foot rim. His shoulders are so big they makes his head look oddly small for his body. Just look at this picture:

http://verticaljumpzone.com/images/dwighthowarddunk.jpg

Doesnt that image look weird? Wouldnt you swear it was a 6 footer dunking on an 8 foot rim? No way a 7 footer could get that much height and dunk from that far way. TRY THIS: Imagine that its Duncan doing that. Can you even picture it?

Youre nostalgic love for Robinson is understood, but to mention him in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid. Whether its modern medicine or just a freak coincidence, we are seeing THE two greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen at the same time.

No, I understand it all.

I understand that he's 265 pounds and runs around like a 180-pounder. I understand that he was not only the best basketball player in the state of Ohio back in high school, he was also the best football player in the state. He could've been the best football player of all-time just as easily as he might become the best basketball player of all-time.

I understand that Howard can get up there. I understand that he tacked a sticker 12'6" above the hardwood while dunking a basketball.

Really, I get it. And I'm not saying that LeBron and Dwight don't belong in the conversation.

What I am saying is that you've either forgotten how athletic D-Rob was, never really watched him much in the first place, or hit your head really hard sometime since 1996 (the year the Admiral injured his back and lost some of his torque). It's not that you can be wrong by saying one or the other is more athletic. Both have valid arguments. You can only be wrong by saying something like this:

"To mention (Robinson) in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid."

And maybe no big man has ever been able to get quite that high, but I know of one that got real close. Then again, that's why I said that even with a 29" vert, I was anything but an athlete.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/0904/hall.robinson/images/2.jpg

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 10:32 PM

I can just see Nathan E's first day as Spurs GM:

Journalist: So Mr. E you've inherited a team that lost in the first round last year. What will you do differently?

Nathan Explosion: Well, first of all, I didn't inherit a team, I inherited Tim Duncan.

Journalist: Ok but you got eliminated in the first round and obviously Tim Duncan is not enough and he needs help.

Nathan Explostion: You must not have seen 2003 when the San Antonio Duncans swept through the playoffs, or be aware that Tim Duncan has 3 Finals MVPs. Tim Duncan will step up and win a title.

Journalist: Then why didn't he step up last year?

Nathan Explostion: He didn't feel like a winning a title last year. You need to understand that has a historian of the game I know what it takes to win a title, and that's Tim Duncan. My first move as GM is going to be to waive the other 13 guys on the roster as I don't see any reason to pay anyone when all you need is Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan will step up and we will win a title. It's just that simple.

Journalist: So that's it, Tim Duncan is going to step up and win you a title?

Nathan Explosion: Yes, did you not watch the 2003 playoffs or something? Can you not count finals MVP trophy's or what? Do you not know how to read a list of the greatest players of all time?

I can see Whott as GM IN 95.

Reporter: "Whott, your team suffered a terrible defeat to the Rockets and David Robinson was outplayed badly by Hakeem. What are you planning on doing different?"

Whott: "I'M TRADING THE ENTIRE TEAM BUT DAVID. THEY ALL SUCKED. DAVID ROBINSON DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG. HIS TEAM DIDN'T STEP UP FOR HIM. HE DID ALL HE COULD.

Reporter: "But wasn't David Robinson "guarding" Hakeem while Hakeem went off for 40 points? And didn't Robinson not only fail to slow down Hakeem, but also failed to raise his play to counter him and cancel out the Dream's output?"

Whott: "DON'T QUOTE FACTS TO ME. DAVID ROBINSON IS HANDS DOWN THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER. THERE'S NO WAY ROBINSON WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS LOSS. I DON'T CARE IF HE IS THE STAR OF THIS TEAM, WHEN THE SPURS CRUISED TO 59 VICTORIES ROBINSON WAS ENTIRELY TO CREDIT. THE DEFEAT IS NOT HIS FAULT THOUGH. THIS 59 WIN TEAM SUCKED ALL YEAR AND IT SHOWED IN THE PLAYOFFS."

Reporter: "But this team won 59 games, so obviously the team wasn't terrible. How can you blame the entire team for the loss but exclude Robinson. After all, the truly great players rise to the occasion and lead their team to victory from the front. Robinson was badly outplayed by his counterpart. Are you saying that he had no part in this defeat?"

Whott: "YOU'RE AN IDIOT. LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA."

You see, your argument is falling apart so you've now turned from arguing the point to attacking the messenger. Sound facts have defeated your "logic".

This debate between you and I is no longer a debate, just a one sided ass kicking by me. I'll be the bigger man and bow out gracefully and let you live in your own fantasy and think that somehow you emerged victorious from this discussion.

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 10:46 PM

Let me explain sothing to you. Footwork and basketball savy is NOT athleticism. Larry Bird was a tad overweight in his hey day and could still fake out anyone and score with the best of them. Hakeem Olajuwon was not a freak athlete the way Dwight Howard and Lebron James are.

Vince Carter, Kobe, Jordan, Gerald Wallace, etc arent anywhere NEAR the athlete that LeBron James is. You have absolutley no idea what you are talking about. LeBron James is 6-8, 250 and hes one of the fastest players in the game. Crazy fast. To compare, Michael Jordan was 6-6 and 212 pounds. Kobe is 6-6, 205. Do you understand the significance of these measurements? LeBron James athleticism is UNHEARD of and we might need see a physcial specimen like him again for a while.

As a pure athlete, the only NBA player who comes close to LeBron is Dwight Howard who is 6'11, 265 and can dunk on a 12 foot rim. His shoulders are so big they makes his head look oddly small for his body. Just look at this picture:

http://verticaljumpzone.com/images/dwighthowarddunk.jpg

Doesnt that image look weird? Wouldnt you swear it was a 6 footer dunking on an 8 foot rim? No way a 7 footer could get that much height and dunk from that far way. TRY THIS: Imagine that its Duncan doing that. Can you even picture it?

Youre nostalgic love for Robinson is understood, but to mention him in the same breath as Howard when it comes to athleticism is just stupid. Whether its modern medicine or just a freak coincidence, we are seeing THE two greatest athletes the NBA has ever seen at the same time.

BTW, Dwight didn't dunk that. He didn't make it so he threw the ball through the rim.

If Howard had taken one more step, he would have made it. Of course it would have looked like this.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/89-17%20The%20Reign%20Man/EC8880ECBC90ED94841-1.gif

Nathan Explosion

09-03-2009, 10:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGKMOT8yDH4

Here's a good video showing Robinson's athleticism. Look at his quickness with the ball and off the floor. The one thing that Howard can't do that Robinson is doing repeatedly in this video is Howard isn't as good a weakside defender.

Look how many times DRob comes from the help position for the block. There's even one play where Robinson navigates traffic down the center of the lane and still gets the block on a man who had a step on him.

whottt

09-03-2009, 11:06 PM

I can see Whott as GM IN 95.

Reporter: "Whott, your team suffered a terrible defeat to the Rockets and David Robinson was outplayed badly by Hakeem. What are you planning on doing different?"

Whott: "I'M TRADING THE ENTIRE TEAM BUT DAVID. THEY ALL SUCKED. DAVID ROBINSON DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG. HIS TEAM DIDN'T STEP UP FOR HIM. HE DID ALL HE COULD.

Definitely shit canning AJ and Rodman for being complete offensive liabilities and easy men to double off of.

Reporter: "But wasn't David Robinson "guarding" Hakeem while Hakeem went off for 40 points? And didn't Robinson not only fail to slow down Hakeem, but also failed to raise his play to counter him and cancel out the Dream's output?"

This is pretty much you should shut the fuck up and stick to reporting...

#1. Hakeem wasn't defending David all by himself, check David's FTA if you do not understand this.

#2. I realize you are a fucking idiot, but if you weren't, you'd notice Hakeem's back up fucking point guard went off for 30 fucking points from the bench in the pivotal game of that series, while David's PG never scored more than 29 points in a game, in his entire playoff career.

But you are an idiot so I don't expect you to notice things like that, I also don't expect you to notice that David got the line more than Hakeem, that in several games David outshot Hakeem from the floor...and the disaprity is really because of two games more than anything else.

And I'd also point out to that when a guy throws up a 29% line in a game, it's probably means he got doubled to non idiots.

I'd also point out, that in the Spurs first championship season. Tim Duncan had a game that he only scored 5 points in, and his team still won.

You out of you fucking mind if you think any of David's teams would have ever won a game like that.

Oh yeah...Duncan didn't lead the Spurs in scoring against the toughest team the Spurs faced in 99...

Robinson did.

Reporter: "But this team won 59 games, so obviously the team wasn't terrible. How can you blame the entire team for the loss but exclude Robinson. After all, the truly great players rise to the occasion and lead their team to victory from the front. Robinson was badly outplayed by his counterpart. Are you saying that he had no part in this defeat?"

What I am saying is this, idiot, Tim Duncan got his ass outplayed by Amare as badly, his team won.

And at least David wasn't get punked by Dirk fucking Nowtizki.

Maybe Duncan just didn't feel like stepping up in those series.

You see, your argument is falling apart so you've now turned from arguing the point to attacking the messenger. Sound facts have defeated your "logic".

No, it's a more a case of you being a simple minded idiot bringing the absolute lowest tier arguments you can bring into this thread, arguments I have had a thousand times...

Your nose has been rubbed in your own shit, you're just too simple minded to realize it...

But hey, at least you got Jazz fan and Rocket fan to console you...right? Spur fan?

This debate between you and I is no longer a debate, just a one sided ass kicking by me. I'll be the bigger man and bow out gracefully and let you live in your own fantasy and think that somehow you emerged victorious from this discussion.

So bow the fuck out then...I coulda sworn you already said you would...do it.

I made a promise to myself I was never going to let someone with this simple minded argument get the last word in...so the sooner you shut the fuck up the better as far as I am concerned.

I suggest you spend your free time actually learning what guards do, and why AJ and Vinny are not equal to any of the other guards any of those other guys had.

Cry Havoc

09-04-2009, 02:29 AM

Wow. This thread has some incredibly inane takes in it. ANYONE that says David Robinson doesn't belong in the conversation in terms of athleticism in "big men" is an outright idiot and either has no memory or must be under the age where seeing him play was a regular thing.

David Robinson would probably easily be in the top 20 players of all-time. And no, I don't just mean basketball. When a guy is 6'7" and qualifies for a gymnastics team, that is something no center on the planet today would be able to do. Dirk is considered an agile 7 footer today, David at his best would make Dirk look more like Shawn Bradley than a wing player. D-Rob was one of the freakiest players to ever play the game.

And, is anyone seriously going to rip him for having trouble guarding Hakeem in the mid-90s? NO ONE could have guarded Hakeem then. There's not a single player in NBA history that could have locked down The Dream when he was in the prime of his career. He torched EVERY player he played against. He would make great defensive centers look absolutely lost on D. That's like ripping someone for not being able to stop Michael Jordan.

"Wow, this guy MIGHT have the credentials to get into the HoF... but Jordan lit him up for 40+ a couple games, that really tarnishes his legacy..."

Just like showing how great a winner Tim was also show's why he's better than DRob.

The fact that you want to show why one Spurs player is better than another is kind of idiotic. This is a team. And it's a team game. It's not about who's better than the other. I hardly ever agree with Whottt, but he's defending D-Rob to a bunch of people who seem to be either pre-pubescent in the 90s or have Alzheimer's Disease. Talking shit about one of the 50 best players in NBA history and one of the classiest players to ever step on a court or a field is just really, really infuriating, and I don't blame Whottt for getting upset. Robinson deserves way more respect than he's getting in this thread.

And your argument works both ways. If Jordan didn't have Pippen, there's a 100% chance that he's not in the top 2 of all-time on everyone's list. Duncan deserves a spot in at least the top 12 of all-time because of what he's accomplished, but if the Spurs don't land those perfect draft picks with Manu and Tony.... he's not sniffing the top 20, and that's a guarantee, because he'd probably be sitting on "only" 2 rings right now just like David and Hakeem.

Nathan Explosion

09-04-2009, 05:37 AM

Talking shit about one of the 50 best players in NBA history and one of the classiest players to ever step on a court or a field is just really, really infuriating, and I don't blame Whottt for getting upset. Robinson deserves way more respect than he's getting in this thread.

And your argument works both ways. If Jordan didn't have Pippen, there's a 100% chance that he's not in the top 2 of all-time on everyone's list. Duncan deserves a spot in at least the top 12 of all-time because of what he's accomplished, but if the Spurs don't land those perfect draft picks with Manu and Tony.... he's not sniffing the top 20, and that's a guarantee, because he'd probably be sitting on "only" 2 rings right now just like David and Hakeem.

Nobody shit talked DRob. God you all are getting your panties in a wad over this. I love DRob, but I'm also realistic. Tim is a better player, period. DRob said if from Day 1 so I'm not alone in thinking this. I saw DRob play his whole career. I've seen Duncan play his whole career, so this isn't based on highlights.

Anyone who doesn't see that Duncan is a superior player is smoking something, a homer, or just doesn't know the game of basketball. When you're career winning percentage is 70%, you might have something to do with that. When you're team wins more games than anyone in any sport in the US since you arrived, you might have something to do with it.

And you're the best ever at your position, and a Top 10 player EVER on top of that, you're pretty damn good.

And if you need more evidence, Tim Duncan was giving Hakeem, DRob, Shaq, Barkley and Malone fits before he ever stepped foot on an NBA court and polished up his game further.

To say that Tim needed Tony and Gino to make the Top 20 is ridiculous. Remember, Tim allows Pop to coach the way he does. Tim sets the tone on the team. Tim can get yelled at, so anyone can get yelled at. From Day 1 anyone who puts on a Spurs uniform knows that Tim is the leader and if you don't fall in line, you're not sticking plain and simple.

Pop says that the secret to his being one of the best coaches ever is Tim Duncan. He says it tongue in cheek but there's a lot of truth to that. When you have a Top 10 player of all time on your team, it can be pretty easy to coach, especially when he's not a prima donna.

This thread hasn't turned into a "disrespect DRob thread" but rather a "disrespect the guy who brought 4 titles to our team" thread.

You Spurs "fans" should be ashamed of yourself for not appreciating what we're seeing on the court today. Tim isn't going to be here forever, and it might not look good for a while once he retires.

BTW, even if Tim only had 2 titles, he'd still have 2 MVPs (one more than DRob) and 2 Finals MVPs (two more than DRob) to his name. His individual accolades alone would get him in the Top 10.

Cry Havoc

09-04-2009, 11:12 AM

Nobody shit talked DRob. God you all are getting your panties in a wad over this. I love DRob, but I'm also realistic. Tim is a better player, period. DRob said if from Day 1 so I'm not alone in thinking this. I saw DRob play his whole career. I've seen Duncan play his whole career, so this isn't based on highlights.

Anyone who doesn't see that Duncan is a superior player is smoking something, a homer, or just doesn't know the game of basketball. When you're career winning percentage is 70%, you might have something to do with that. When you're team wins more games than anyone in any sport in the US since you arrived, you might have something to do with it.

And you're the best ever at your position, and a Top 10 player EVER on top of that, you're pretty damn good.

And if you need more evidence, Tim Duncan was giving Hakeem, DRob, Shaq, Barkley and Malone fits before he ever stepped foot on an NBA court and polished up his game further.

To say that Tim needed Tony and Gino to make the Top 20 is ridiculous. Remember, Tim allows Pop to coach the way he does. Tim sets the tone on the team. Tim can get yelled at, so anyone can get yelled at. From Day 1 anyone who puts on a Spurs uniform knows that Tim is the leader and if you don't fall in line, you're not sticking plain and simple.

Pop says that the secret to his being one of the best coaches ever is Tim Duncan. He says it tongue in cheek but there's a lot of truth to that. When you have a Top 10 player of all time on your team, it can be pretty easy to coach, especially when he's not a prima donna.

This thread hasn't turned into a "disrespect DRob thread" but rather a "disrespect the guy who brought 4 titles to our team" thread.

You Spurs "fans" should be ashamed of yourself for not appreciating what we're seeing on the court today. Tim isn't going to be here forever, and it might not look good for a while once he retires.

BTW, even if Tim only had 2 titles, he'd still have 2 MVPs (one more than DRob) and 2 Finals MVPs (two more than DRob) to his name. His individual accolades alone would get him in the Top 10.

What are you talking about? Several people have stated wrong or incompetent things about David in this thread. I'll go back and repost them for you if you'd like, but seeing as you were also posting at the time, I'm not sure why I need to.

You're right, though. Me saying that Duncan is a top 10 player of all-time is just blasphemous. I should be shot for not putting him immediately as a top 3 player of all-time. :lol

You missed the point of what I said. Spurs fans DO. NOT. CARE. That Duncan is a better player than Robinson. In fact, we should rename this to "Tim Duncan hate thread."

Speaking of which, have you read the thread title? You do understand that Tim Duncan has nothing to do with this thread in the first place, right?

In reality, there's just no need for the comparison. Both are equally loved in San Antonio and both were part of the first two championships. You're so gung-ho about proving that Duncan is better, and no one cares (well, it pisses whottt off because he thinks it's a stupid comparison to make), and it bothers you. But you did wade into an argument where kingmalaki was essentially trashing D-Rob, da_suns_fan is stating how unathletic D-Rob is compared to Howard... and if you can't see how that would seem to ally you with the minimalization of Robinson's career, I don't know what to tell you.

whottt

09-04-2009, 11:24 AM

No fuck you dude...

You are the one saying David Robinson couldn't do shit, couldn't get it done, trying to give every bit of credit to Duncan, and then you are whining like a bitch when people don't share you stupid fucking view of the game and point out how Duncan had help too...stick that point up your ass.

You know, it' bad enough I had to listen to you stupid fuckking idiots since the day the Spurs won the title...

David unselfishless took the unglamourour for the good of the team, and it was HE that was anchoring the fucking defense and guarding Shaq and the like.

And what did idiots say to that?

Duncan did it all...

That'a why players are selfish, because of idiots like you, with your stupid fucking mindset.

But you come in here and do that shit when David''s going to into the HOF?

His moment?

No...you go fuck yourself.

You low class piece of shit.

You aren't just disgracing Spur fans, you're disgracing Tim Duncan as well...because he'll be the first guy to tell you he didn't do it by himself, and even if he wouldn't, he wouldn't be saying he did it all himself when David's going into the HOF

So shut the fuck up and stop whining about Duncan not getting enough credit, he gets plenty of credit, it's David that is marginalized, taken for granted, and doesn't get enough credit.

Fans like you make me wish David Robinson had never even played for the Spurs, becausse you didn't fucking deserve him.

kingmalaki

09-04-2009, 11:28 AM

And, is anyone seriously going to rip him for having trouble guarding Hakeem in the mid-90s? NO ONE could have guarded Hakeem then. There's not a single player in NBA history that could have locked down The Dream when he was in the prime of his career. He torched EVERY player he played against. He would make great defensive centers look absolutely lost on D. That's like ripping someone for not being able to stop Michael Jordan.

I'm not going to rip him too bad for not being able to stop Hakeem. But I will rip him for not being the best big on the floor everytime he faced another HOF big in a playoff series (0-4). And I only mention this since we were debating stars "stepping up" (i.e. how Hakeem and Duncan did).

Cry Havoc

09-04-2009, 11:41 AM

baseline bum

09-04-2009, 11:52 AM

Yeah, there's a couple of jumpshots in here:

S36g_AZX84M

I love the tomahawk alley-oop at the 2:50 mark. :tu

whottt

09-04-2009, 01:52 PM

I'm not going to rip him too bad for not being able to stop Hakeem. But I will rip him for not being the best big on the floor everytime he faced another HOF big in a playoff series (0-4). And I only mention this since we were debating stars "stepping up" (i.e. how Hakeem and Duncan did).

You look at the supporting casts and it's easy to see why David was taken away.

I mean it's a freaking joke that anyone thinks the 93-94 Spurs should have beaten anyone. Look at the roster on that team sometime and where they were in their careers.

Bonus points if anyone can tell me who the PG was on that team.

It took a superhuman season from Drob to get that to the playoffs.

Honestly, David' crime was taking teams that had no business being in the playoffs into the playoffs.

Yeah his first 2 teams were good, and were obviously destined for greatness, until health and bad trades dismantled it....and so were the 95-96 teams good...but NBA championship good? There's no way you can say a backfield of Vinny and AJ was an NBA championship quality backcourt for a one superstar team.

No fucking way...

I mean you don't think giving David, Drexler or even Cassell, much less fucking Magic, Kobe, Jerry West, or even Manu and Tony wouldn't have made a fucking difference? Get fucking serious.

Tony Parker as a 19 year old qualifies as the best scoring guard David would have ever had.

Not even fucking close, if you take David Robinson off those teams and replace them with any of the players being discussed, those teams still weren't going to win a championship.

And some of those teams David took to the playoffs would have been in the lottery without him, much less winning 50 games.

Any team Tim Duncan was on with David Robinson was automatically better than any team David Robinson was on by himself...because of David as much as Tim.

You guys that say this shit are the same type of guys that said John Elway was a choker and sucked and couldn't win the big one.

John Elway's only crime, much like David, was being good enough to get his teams in over their heads to the degree that they recieved colossal asswhuppings when they actually ran into a great team. As soon as they were part of a legitimate team, the truth was revealed.

You say David never stepped up...that's because he played stepped up for the entire regular season to get his team into playoffs, and there was no higher level to step up too. In the playoffs the teams will take away what you do best so you better have something else going for you. Those teams still have to have talent.

Hakeem got his face busted and his team went on a 18 game winning streak...
Michael Jordan retired and his team still almost made the finals..without him.
The year David went out with injury it was the greatest single season negative turnaround in NBA history...

That is a far cry from 18 game winning streaks and challenging for the finals.

Great teams win championships...that's why Wilt didn't win it every year, because let me tell you, if one man was all it took to win a championship, Wilt Chamberlain would be the guy with 11 rings, not Bill Russell(and the 5-6 other HOF'ers he played with every year of his career).

kingmalaki

09-04-2009, 05:20 PM

And that's why you don't have much credibility in this thread.

If the truth removes my credibility then so be it. I have seen Duncan and Hakeem get the best of another great big when it mattered. When did you see Robinson do this?

ShoogarBear

09-05-2009, 04:07 AM

Training camp is in full swing.

After this thread, no more pulling out the "Off Season" card.

whottt

09-05-2009, 01:51 PM

If the truth removes my credibility then so be it. I have seen Duncan and Hakeem get the best of another great big when it mattered.

Oh yeah slick? I guarantee you any point you show me Hakeem or Duncan stepping up in that situation, I will show you a PG that could hit a 3 fucking pointer.

Then you're just going to have to show David's hitting one.

Thanks for playin'.

When did you see Robinson do this?

About as often as you saw his PG knock down an outside shot when his man was sagging off him onto David, the standard way of defending him.

PS: Thanks for proving you didn't watch the Con Finals, if you had you'd have known Robinson kicked Hakeem's ass off the court in the fourth quarter of a couple of those games....when Hakeem was handed the task of dending Robinson on one.

Amazingly, even the most dominant scorers ever never scored a single fucking point sitting on the bench...which is where anyone asked to guard David Robinson for an entire game by themselves usually found themselves in the fourth quarter.

Get this straight...David Robinson played 14 seasons(really only 13), the last 5 of those getting about half as many touches and FTA(or less) as he did the first 8...yet he shot 600 more FT's than Hakeem did in an 18 year career.

I remember one game where fucking Hakeem scored like 6 points against David when he tried to guard him. Was probably the worst game of Hakeem's career.

Even when he was in his on his last legs, like in 2001, in game 3 VS LA when the Spurs were being dominated because of double teams, on Duncan, while his guards did shit, resulting in the worst Conference Finals loss in NBA history, the Spurs switched to running the offense through David and the Lakers tried guarding him one on one with Shaq....

David had 18 points or so by the 3rd quarter and Shaq on the bench in foul trouble, from trying to guard David. I think Shaq had 4 fouls by the 3rd.

And David could do that to anyone, any C, pretty much any SF, that attemped to guard him.

That is why they never even attempted it for longer than spot minutes after his second year in the league.

When the Spurs ran that little iso with David where he would face his man up to the basket, you either foul David or double teame him, or you were going to get scored on while David's defender was left flat footed.

It scored in a half court setting, it drew double teams, it did everything you want your bigman to do, it just did it a little differently, because David didn't have a big enough butt to use a tradiational post up game. Yeah it wasn't the prototypical back to the basket game to disect a defense, but it would work well enough, if you had some one that would punish them when they did it.

That was his post game, and while it may not have been what you are used to seeing, it was extremely effieicient, it's why David won 5 IBM awards given to the player who was statistically proven to the best the player in the league and who did the most to help his team win. He would destroy the opposing teams defensive rotation if they attempted to guard him, one on one.

And David owned that fucking award, that's probably why they got rid of it...because it didn't jibe with all the hype they were laying on players who didn't win that award.

and hey slick, two of those guys on Hakeem's team have more rings than Hakeem does, a couple of them from doing the exact same fucking things for Duncan, that they did for Hakeem, against David.

Nobody says that game sucks when Amare uses it...and Amare can't even create his own shot like David could, nor can he jump as high, nor is he as fast.

David's not what you say he was....and he's a great deal smarter than you and most basketball fans(and coaches and gms) and he had an extremely efficient game for winning basketball games...that's why the computer always picked him, despite what the experts said and the league wanted.