Are we as much slaves today as the black race prior to the civil war?

[SpurNation]

Think about it.

The civil war was fought by the north to insure that we as a people had the right to "individually" make our decisions in life.

Today's expanding government controll is making us slaves to the agendas of the political elite.

[Shastafarian]

This thread will end well.

[coyotes_geek]

Absurd concept.

[I. Hustle]

Yes! We are exactly like the black slaves! Maybe even more so. In fact I wish I was a black slave from back then as opposed to being put through the type of conditions we have to live in now.

[SpurNation]

The shock was intentional.

But the principle of the civil war was to ensure that all people regardless of race have pursuant to themselves the ability to live free without physical bondage.

I believe we are esculating in a path of fiscal and political bondage that will eventually take our freedoms away to make those decisions for ourselves.

That to me will be as absurd as the plight the black race had to endure during the era of slavery in this country.

[polysylab1k]

We need another Abraham Lincoln and sequentially, we need our Martin Luther King.

[DarrinS]

It's healthy to have mistrust of government, especially a sprawling, invasive government.


But to compare that with the plight of black slaves in the Civil War era?

[TeyshaBlue]

Think about it.

The civil war was fought by the north to insure that we as a people had the right to "individually" make our decisions in life.

Today's expanding government controll is making us slaves to the agendas of the political elite.

*super-nova straw thread*

[Extra Stout]

I really don't know why this would be considered to be any kind of profound idea. It just demonstrates that the OP doesn't understand what chattel slavery is, or why the Civil War was fought, or what mid-19th century concepts of self-determination in America were.

Nobody in here is going to say anything more intelligent on the interplay between state involvement in the economy and its effect on personal liberty than Friedrich Hayek did in The Road to Serfdom, insofar as he eventually got the Nobel Prize, so just read that book and quote him.

[SpurNation]

It's healthy to have mistrust of government, especially a sprawling, invasive government.


But to compare that with the plight of black slaves in the Civil War era?

My fear is that we as a people of this nation are... in the near future... are going to be as obligated to our federal owners as black slaves were to their's.

The bondage will take on as much reprocussions both physicaly and pyscologically. It's already happening in today's society where government programs intended to help people rise from the depths of poverty instead help feed the need of dependency on those programs. The middle class is being driven at an alarming rate more and more into poverty status because of freedoms being taken away to help support the feeding of the poverty afflicted until one day we have a society much like that of the south prior to the civil war. Wealthy owners and the servants to feed that wealth. That wealth being the federal government.

[balli]

The op is a fucking retard and should stop posting.

[z0sa]

not even close.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, we aren't like slaves of the 1700's, but that's what the elite seem to be trying to do.

Think about it. They think it is their right to take as much of our money as they want in taxes, and they are nice letting us keep as much as they do. Regulations and laws that are stupid. The federal government has already stolen states rights.

[coyotes_geek]

Damn. The Obama administration just auctioned me off for a couple of old refridgerators.

[mookie2001]

whos "they" WC?

[clambake]

Damn. The Obama administration just auctioned me off for a couple of old refridgerators.

i looked up your value in the blue book.

thats a fair offer.

[coyotes_geek]

i looked up your value in the blue book.

thats a fair offer.

:depressed

This being a slave thing sucks.

[clambake]

:depressed

This being a slave thing sucks.

i kid.

[coyotes_geek]

^^^ it's all good. I laughed.

[SpurNation]

I really don't know why this would be considered to be any kind of profound idea. It just demonstrates that the OP doesn't understand what chattel slavery is, or why the Civil War was fought, or what mid-19th century concepts of self-determination in America were.

Nobody in here is going to say anything more intelligent on the interplay between state involvement in the economy and its effect on personal liberty than Friedrich Hayek did in The Road to Serfdom, insofar as he eventually got the Nobel Prize, so just read that book and quote him.

Do you think we are going to have a choice if governemt expands to the point where we have to function to serve it's agenda?

[Extra Stout]

Do you think we are going to have a choice if governemt expands to the point where we have to function to serve it's agenda?

Seriously, read the book I recommended.

[SpurNation]

Seriously, read the book I recommended.

Will do.

[spurster]

Well, we aren't like slaves of the 1700's, but that's what the elite seem to be trying to do.

Think about it. They think it is their right to take as much of our money as they want in taxes, and they are nice letting us keep as much as they do. Regulations and laws that are stupid. The federal government has already stolen states rights.

It's sad to think of all those slaves earning $100,000+. It's far better to earn less than that and not be a slave. Also, you get tell all those high-earners what to do or else they'll be whipped or starved for a while, and you get to rape their women, too!

[ploto]

The civil war was fought by the north to insure that we as a people had the right to "individually" make our decisions in life.
Read a book.

[Shastafarian]

Read a book.

http://funnypics.free.fr/explorer/public/gifs/reading-rainbow.gif

[Wild Cobra]

Nobody in here is going to say anything more intelligent on the interplay between state involvement in the economy and its effect on personal liberty than Friedrich Hayek did in The Road to Serfdom, insofar as he eventually got the Nobel Prize, so just read that book and quote him.I looked it up, and I'm tempted to go buy and read it myself.

Powell's Search: The Road to Serfdom (http://www.powells.com/s3?kw=%20the%20road%20to%20serfdom)

Thanx.

[MannyIsGod]

What a stupid fucking thread.

[ChumpDumper]

You guys never miss a chance to feel oppressed, do you?

[DarkReign]

One word:

No.

[SpurNation]

Would you agree with this statement?



But like all slavery, like all domination, like all exploitation, it came to the point that the people got tired of it. And that seems to be the long story of history. There seems to be a throbbing desire, there seems to be an internal desire for freedom within the soul of every man. And it’s there—it might not break forth in the beginning, but eventually it breaks out, for men realize that freedom is something basic. To rob a man of his freedom is to take from him the essential basis of his manhood. To take from him his freedom is to rob him of something of God’s image. To paraphrase the words of Shakespeare’s Othello:
Who steals my purse steals trash; ‘t is something, nothing;
‘T was mine, ‘t is his, has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my freedom
Robs me of that which not enriches him
But makes me poor indeed.


I wish to be free to to make my own decisions regarding all decisions in my life. That is being (year by year, generation by generation) taken away by a government who would want to controll our fiscal earnings in order to enslave us to the servitude of their own agendas.

[ChumpDumper]

You're not as much a slave as antebellum blacks in America.

Not even close.

Trying to paint yourself as such makes it easy to dismiss any point you might have out of hand.

Frankly, it's insulting and embarrassing at the same time.

[SpurNation]

You're not as much a slave as antebellum blacks in America.

Not even close.

Trying to paint yourself as such makes it easy to dismiss any point you might have out of hand.

Frankly, it's insulting and embarrassing at the same time.

Some of my ancestors were as much enslaved. And color of skin wasn't the issue.

[ChumpDumper]

Some of my ancestors were as much enslaved. And color of skin wasn't the issue.You weren't talking about your ancestors. You were talking about us today.

[SpurNation]

There are governments far worse than the US at taking things away, in fact most of it has been given to you rather than taken. This entire country (with all resources) belonged to Native Americans. If you want complete freedom from the income tax you can move to Monaco, that is a decision you're free to make.

Point is this is becomng a government that is taking more and more away and reducing the freedoms which we have to give according to what we as individuals would give if not enslaved by the fiscal demands made by the federal government.

And it's not income tax I'm opposed to. It's the government's seemingly unbridled ability to allocate that money.

[SpurNation]

You weren't talking about your ancestors. You were talking about us today.

I know Chump. I know it's brutal and to many unexeptable to use that part in our history as a support to a platform. But many political activists (especially liberal activists) have been doing that for years.

Look...I give what I can to help people. If I can do it...I will help anybody in need. My wife often critisizes me for being overly helpful especially when it means I'm taking away from our needs to do so.

But I feel that we are rewarded in the future for our giving of today. And it's come back to haunt me sometimes and sometimes it comes back with gratitude I never expected.

But if the government keeps pursuing mandated procedures which we are to abide...then the freedom of giving to whom we choose to help will quickly deminish to who someone else dictates where we give.

What's wrong in allowing the people of this nation to give to who or what they deem as appropriate to give? And if the government through mandated regulation keeps taking more and more away...we have less to offer to those we want to help.

[ChumpDumper]

You aren't as much a slave as antebellum blacks in America.

You are free to publicly bitch about your current situation, which is in itself more than they could do. Your analogy failed as soon as you made it because you could make it.

[SpurNation]

You aren't as much a slave as antebellum blacks in America.

You are free to publicly bitch about your current situation, which is in itself more than they could do. Your analogy failed as soon as you made it because you could make it.

That is the point. We are slowly becoming a nation that will not have the ability to change unjust government procedures no matter how much we bitch because government is gaining too much controll.

Yes...I am free now to do so...and so are you...and so is the rest of the nation...but being free to "bitch" about something doesn't mean our freedoms can't be taken away. I'm sure the proponents of slavery of the time thought that all the people against it were nothing but "bitchers" too.

[ChumpDumper]

No, the point is you aren't as much a slave as antebellum blacks in America.

You asked the question and it has been answered.

[Mel_13]

That is the point. We are slowly becoming a nation that will not have the ability to change unjust government procedures no matter how much we bitch because government is gaining too much controll.

Yes...I am free now to do so...and so are you...and so is the rest of the nation...but being free to "bitch" about something doesn't mean our freedoms can't be taken away. I'm sure the proponents of slavery of the time thought that all the people against it were nothing but "bitchers" too.

1. Read the question posed in the your thread title.

2. Read the bolded portion of your post.

3. You have answered the question posed in the negative.

[clambake]

you're superstitious?

[clambake]

:lol. Yeah, that whole bitching thing sort of works if you have a good argument.

don't make fun. he said "things have come back to haunt me".

[Galileo]

Black slaves had no legal remedy for their freedom.

People today have many legal outlets to gain more freedom:

1) voting

2) freedom of press to make political opinions known & right to petition government

3) right to serve on juries and grand juries = opportunity to oppose tyrannical laws

4) right to run for public office or join political parties

5) you can use the court system to fight the government

6) state legislatures can pass amendments to Constitution

The sad fact is, a lot of people have been duped into our current condition.

[SpurNation]

Answering questions? I'm sure Jews during Hitler's terror asked the same but nothing was done until millions were killed.

[Bartleby]

The greatest threat to the freedom of Americans today is financial debt i.e. it's the banks who own your ass, not the state.

[clambake]

hitler! finally someone said it!

[ChumpDumper]

Answering questions? I'm sure Jews during Hitler's terror asked the same but nothing was done until millions were killed.I had to figure Godwin wouldn't be far behind. Kudos for holding out this long, I guess.

[SpurNation]

Liberals!!!

Don't use your somewhat viable arguement regarding Bush's policies to become that of which you destained during his administration as a defense for Obama.

Both were/are looking to controll the American public through manipulation of government.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not talking about either president. I'm talking about your preposterous premise.

[resistanze]

But the principle of the civil war was to ensure that all people regardless of race have pursuant to themselves the ability to live free without physical bondage.

And WWII was fought to prevent German imports of BMWs into America.

How fucking dumb can you be?

[The Franchise]

what a stupid fucking thread.

+2

[SpurNation]

I is sorry. I, I didn'ts wants to offens you master. I wuz jus thinkin' that iffen you could be's so kind to allow's me to give to who I would likes to giv's to , you juz might not has to take's so much away.

Especially my freedom to choose who that might be.

[ChumpDumper]

You are free to be a stupid jackass like you were in that last post.

Congratulations.

[SpurNation]

You are free to be a stupid jackass like you were in that last post.

Congratulations.

I'll post this again..



But like all slavery, like all domination, like all exploitation, it came to the point that the people got tired of it. And that seems to be the long story of history. There seems to be a throbbing desire, there seems to be an internal desire for freedom within the soul of every man. And it’s there—it might not break forth in the beginning, but eventually it breaks out, for men realize that freedom is something basic. To rob a man of his freedom is to take from him the essential basis of his manhood. To take from him his freedom is to rob him of something of God’s image. To paraphrase the words of Shakespeare’s Othello:
Who steals my purse steals trash; ‘t is something, nothing;
‘T was mine, ‘t is his, has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my freedom
Robs me of that which not enriches him
But makes me poor indeed.


Do you know who even said this?

It was from a person I admire for his commitment to fairness for all and not just any particualr race, religion or government policy.

[ChumpDumper]

Martin Luther King Jr. was a pretty clearly a socialist. You would have hated, no -- you do now hate, his ideas for government involvement in issues of poverty and economic inequality.

If you want to move to Ghana to be free, you are indeed free to do so.

[SpurNation]

Martin Luther King Jr. was not a socialist. He had a dream for all people to free of government policies that he knew allowed for descrimination.

[ChumpDumper]

Martin Luther King Jr. was not a socialist. He had a dream for all people to free of government policies that he knew allowed for descrimination.I guess you just kind of blanked out everything he did and said after 1965. It's understandable from someone who is declares he is as much a slave today as the blacks prior to the Civil War.

[rjv]

"man is born free and yet everywhere he is in chains"

jean jacques rousseau

[Bartleby]

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching
spiritual death."

Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, 1967.

[Galileo]

A Slave's Story

One hundred ninety five years ago, British troops set fire to the White House. A slave by the name of Paul Jennings was there and published the only known memoir at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL2o3MFR88g&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnews%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fnews%3Fhl% 3Den%26q%3Dpaul%2520jennings%26um%3D1%26ie%3DUTF%2 D8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwn&feature=player_embedded

[SpurNation]

I guess you just kind of blanked out everything he did and said after 1965. It's understandable from someone who is declares he is as much a slave today as the blacks prior to the Civil War.

And you think Dr. Martin Luther King would be agreeable to people being forced to abide by government mandates if it meant the people would have to be subjected to not having their voices heard whether they wanted it or not?

That's what is happening in our government today. It's about political policy more so than public majority.

Do I support government funding in research for all means to help cure illness...of course. Is that what happens today...No. Lobbyist from both sides of the aisle set forth their presedence to influence the beurocrats of Washington to support whatever funding they are in search for. Our politicians sell there constituents soles for profit and greed regardless of race, religious affiliation or creed.

I don't think Dr. Martin Luther King's idea of a free America conceptionalised this. His speaches were about people sharing together their ideas, goals and dreams and working together with each to achieve those goals. If we are taken away our ability to make a decision on who or what we want to help with regards to free choice...what good is having a dream?

[clambake]

hitler!

[ChumpDumper]

And you think Dr. Martin Luther King would be agreeable to people being forced to abide by government mandates if it meant the people would have to be subjected to not having their voices heard whether they wanted it or not?

That's what is happening in our government today. It's about political policy more so than public majority.

Do I support government funding in research for all means to help cure illness...of course. Is that what happens today...No. Lobbyist from both sides of the aisle set forth their presedence to influence the beurocrats of Washington to support whatever funding they are in search for. Our politicians sell there constituents soles for profit and greed regardless of race, religious affiliation or creed.

I don't think Dr. Martin Luther King's idea of a free America conceptionalised this. His speaches were about people sharing together their ideas, goals and dreams and working together with each to achieve those goals. If we are taken away our ability to make a decision on who or what we want to help with regards to free choice...what good is having a dream?The idea for the Poor People's Campaign grew out of what King termed the "second phase" of the civil rights struggle. After the "first phase" had exposed the problems of segregation through nonviolence, King hoped to address what he called the "limitations to our achievements" with a second phase. In its ideology and style, the Poor People's Campaign demonstrated a merging of the first-phase tactics into second-phase goals. Through nonviolent direct action, King and SCLC hoped to focus the nation on economic inequality and poverty. The campaign also differed from previous SCLC campaigns in that it aimed to address the struggles of a cross-section of minority groups. "It must not be just black people," argued King, "it must be all poor people. We must include American Indians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, and even poor whites."

SCLC planned the Poor People's Campaign to be the most massive, widespread campaign of civil disobedience yet undertaken by a movement. They aimed to bring 1,500 protesters to Washington, D.C., to lobby Congress and other governmental agencies for an "economic bill of rights." Specifically, the campaign requested a $30 billion anti-poverty package that would include a commitment to full employment, a guaranteed annual income measure, and increased construction of low-income housing. Protest activities in Washington were to be supported by simultaneous demonstrations throughout the country. Despite division within SCLC over the campaign's feasibility, King embraced the campaign and traveled across the country speaking on poverty and conducted "people-to-people tours" to recruit participants.

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/encyclopedia/encyclopedia/enc_poor_peoples_campaign/

You asked if King supported government mandates that would curtail your ability to give to the cause of your choice.

The answer is yes.

[SpurNation]

Thanks Chump for the info. I guess I bought into the persona that I wanted to believe about the man. Not to say now that he wasn't a great person...but it's a falicy to believe that government controll can make all things better.

And I still hold this to heart in which he said...


But like all slavery, like all domination, like all exploitation, it came to the point that the people got tired of it.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, he thought poverty was a form of and/or resulting from slavery, domination and exploitation. His later life was dedicated to addressing it in a way he thought would be effective. I'm sure arriving at that conclusion was quite difficult for him.

[rjv]

this anti-poverty package, is this what became lbj's war on poverty and eventual "great society" ?

[LnGrrrR]

Think about it.

The civil war was fought by the north to insure that we as a people had the right to "individually" make our decisions in life.

Today's expanding government controll is making us slaves to the agendas of the political elite.

Really, I'm sure this has been said already, but are you that stupid?

Let's see.... we have the right to vote, the right to marry someone of a different color, right to use the same facilities, right to not be considered property, right to race our own children... must I go on?

You're very historically ignorant if you think we're "less free" than slaves were. Tell me, how much economic freedom do you think slaves had? Sheesh.

[LnGrrrR]

Would you agree with this statement?





I wish to be free to to make my own decisions regarding all decisions in my life. That is being (year by year, generation by generation) taken away by a government who would want to controll our fiscal earnings in order to enslave us to the servitude of their own agendas.


If you want to be free to make all decisions, here's what you can do: find an ocean and star swimming. When you come to an island, see if anyone is there. If so, take a rest, then continue swimming.

Or you could just hole up in the mountains somewhere and try to hide out with some guns. Sounds like fun!

[LnGrrrR]

Guys... I have a question similar to SpurNation.

Are we better off than crickets?

I mean, seriously, they have no concept of money, and therefore aren't taxed! They don't rely on other crickets, and each cricket gets to make his own way, without any sort of United States of Cricket or Cricketania government lording over them, taking all their tasty insect bits!

[ChumpDumper]

this anti-poverty package, is this what became lbj's war on poverty and eventual "great society" ?Most of the Great Society/War on Poverty programs were enacted in 1964-66 period. The Poor People's Campaign was planned for 1968.

[LnGrrrR]

Man, this thread is full of win.

From the very quote Spurnation posted:



To paraphrase the words of Shakespeare’s Othello:
Who steals my purse steals trash; ‘t is something, nothing;
‘T was mine, ‘t is his, has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my freedom
Robs me of that which not enriches him
But makes me poor indeed.


Isn't he complaining about taxation? :p

[rjv]

almost all social and poliitcal philosophers concede that any intrinsic freedoms man inherit are lost due to the need to form communities or societies. of course, this does not mean that some societies are less egalitarian than others.

[LnGrrrR]

But like all slavery, like all domination, like all exploitation, it came to the point that the people got tired of it.
You're confusing correlation and causation. Just because people become tired of something does not make it ipso facto slavery, domination or exploitation. I'm tired of Lindsey Lohan, and I sure as heck didn't get the choice to enslave, dominate or exploit her.

[ChumpDumper]

You're confusing correlation and causation. Just because people become tired of something does not make it ipso facto slavery, domination or exploitation. I'm tired of Lindsey Lohan, and I sure as heck didn't get the choice to enslave, dominate or exploit her.The quote was also about the independence of Ghana after a period of colonization by the British Empire. I don't think we are as bad off as they were back then either.

[rjv]

a very interesting read on the collaboration between LBJ and MLK

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2005_spr/kotz.htm

[boutons_deux]

"Today's expanding government control"

no details? fuck off

the corps control government, and they want full protection/no liability to go after last penny in your pocket by any means possible.

You're stupid fuckers who buy the conservative/Reagan bullshit lie of "hate government, it's the cause of all problems".

[SpurNation]

"Today's expanding government control"

no details? fuck off

the corps control government, and they want full protection/no liability to go after last penny in your pocket by any means possible.

You're stupid fuckers who buy the conservative/Reagan bullshit lie of "hate government, it's the cause of all problems".

My point exactly. I'll say this again...for those that complain about capitalism...look no farther than the biggest capitalist endeavor in the nation...Federal Government.