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Marcus Bryant
09-02-2009, 12:32 PM
After the needless death of his father, the author, a business executive, began a personal exploration of a health-care industry that for years has delivered poor service and irregular quality at astonishingly high cost. It is a system, he argues, that is not worth preserving in anything like its current form. And the health-care reform now being contemplated will not fix it. Here’s a radical solution to an agonizing problem.


http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

How American Health Care Killed My Father

by David Goldhill
The Atlantic
September 2009

Almost two years ago, my father was killed by a hospital-borne infection in the intensive-care unit of a well-regarded nonprofit hospital in New York City. Dad had just turned 83, and he had a variety of the ailments common to men of his age. But he was still working on the day he walked into the hospital with pneumonia. Within 36 hours, he had developed sepsis. Over the next five weeks in the ICU, a wave of secondary infections, also acquired in the hospital, overwhelmed his defenses. My dad became a statistic—merely one of the roughly 100,000 Americans (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/washington/19hospital.html) whose deaths are caused or influenced by infections picked up in hospitals. One hundred thousand deaths: more than double the number of people killed in car crashes, five times the number killed in homicides, 20 times the total number of our armed forces killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another victim in a building American tragedy.

About a week after my father’s death, The New Yorker ran an article by Atul Gawande (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande) profiling the efforts of Dr. Peter Pronovost to reduce the incidence of fatal hospital-borne infections. Pronovost’s solution? A simple checklist of ICU protocols governing physician hand-washing and other basic sterilization procedures. Hospitals implementing Pronovost’s checklist had enjoyed almost instantaneous success, reducing hospital-infection rates by two-thirds within the first three months of its adoption. But many physicians rejected the checklist as an unnecessary and belittling bureaucratic intrusion, and many hospital executives were reluctant to push it on them. The story chronicled Pronovost’s travels around the country as he struggled to persuade hospitals to embrace his reform.

It was a heroic story, but to me, it was also deeply unsettling. How was it possible that Pronovost needed to beg hospitals to adopt an essentially cost-free idea that saved so many lives? Here’s an industry that loudly protests the high cost of liability insurance and the injustice of our tort system and yet needs extensive lobbying to embrace a simple technique to save up to 100,000 people.

And what about us—the patients? How does a nation that might close down a business for a single illness from a suspicious hamburger tolerate the carnage inflicted by our hospitals? And not just those 100,000 deaths. In April, a Wall Street Journal story (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123854497651476109.html) suggested that blood clots following surgery or illness, the leading cause of preventable hospital deaths in the U.S., may kill nearly 200,000 patients per year. How did Americans learn to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths from minor medical mistakes as an inevitability?

My survivor’s grief has taken the form of an obsession with our health-care system. For more than a year, I’ve been reading as much as I can get my hands on, talking to doctors and patients, and asking a lot of questions.

Keeping Dad company in the hospital for five weeks had left me befuddled. How can a facility featuring state-of-the-art diagnostic equipment use less-sophisticated information technology than my local sushi bar? How can the ICU stress the importance of sterility when its trash is picked up once daily, and only after flowing onto the floor of a patient’s room? Considering the importance of a patient’s frame of mind to recovery, why are the rooms so cheerless and uncomfortable? In whose interest is the bizarre scheduling of hospital shifts, so that a five-week stay brings an endless string of new personnel assigned to a patient’s care? Why, in other words, has this technologically advanced hospital missed out on the revolution in quality control and customer service that has swept all other consumer-facing industries in the past two generations?

I’m a businessman, and in no sense a health-care expert. But the persistence of bad industry practices—from long lines at the doctor’s office to ever-rising prices to astonishing numbers of preventable deaths—seems beyond all normal logic, and must have an underlying cause. There needs to be a business reason why an industry, year in and year out, would be able to get away with poor customer service, unaffordable prices, and uneven results—a reason my father and so many others are unnecessarily killed.

Like every grieving family member, I looked for someone to blame for my father’s death. But my dad’s doctors weren’t incompetent—on the contrary, his hospital physicians were smart, thoughtful, and hard-working. Nor is he dead because of indifferent nursing—without exception, his nurses were dedicated and compassionate. Nor from financial limitations—he was a Medicare patient, and the issue of expense was never once raised. There were no greedy pharmaceutical companies, evil health insurers, or other popular villains in his particular tragedy.

Indeed, I suspect that our collective search for villains—for someone to blame—has distracted us and our political leaders from addressing the fundamental causes of our nation’s health-care crisis. All of the actors in health care—from doctors to insurers to pharmaceutical companies—work in a heavily regulated, massively subsidized industry full of structural distortions. They all want to serve patients well. But they also all behave rationally in response to the economic incentives those distortions create. Accidentally, but relentlessly, America has built a health-care system with incentives that inexorably generate terrible and perverse results. Incentives that emphasize health care over any other aspect of health and well-being. That emphasize treatment over prevention. That disguise true costs. That favor complexity, and discourage transparent competition based on price or quality. That result in a generational pyramid scheme rather than sustainable financing. And that—most important—remove consumers from our irreplaceable role as the ultimate ensurer of value.

These are the impersonal forces, I’ve come to believe, that explain why things have gone so badly wrong in health care, producing the national dilemma of runaway costs and poorly covered millions. The problems I’ve explored in the past year hardly count as breakthrough discoveries—health-care experts undoubtedly view all of them as old news. But some experts, it seems, have come to see many of these problems as inevitable in any health-care system—as conditions to be patched up, papered over, or worked around, but not problems to be solved.

That’s the premise behind today’s incremental approach to health-care reform. Though details of the legislation are still being negotiated, its principles are a reprise of previous reforms—addressing access to health care by expanding government aid to those without adequate insurance, while attempting to control rising costs through centrally administered initiatives. Some of the ideas now on the table may well be sensible in the context of our current system. But fundamentally, the “comprehensive” reform being contemplated merely cements in place the current system—insurance-based, employment-centered, administratively complex. It addresses the underlying causes of our health-care crisis only obliquely, if at all; indeed, by extending the current system to more people, it will likely increase the ultimate cost of true reform.

I’m a Democrat, and have long been concerned about America’s lack of a health safety net. But based on my own work experience, I also believe that unless we fix the problems at the foundation of our health system—largely problems of incentives—our reforms won’t do much good, and may do harm. To achieve maximum coverage at acceptable cost with acceptable quality, health care will need to become subject to the same forces that have boosted efficiency and value throughout the economy. We will need to reduce, rather than expand, the role of insurance; focus the government’s role exclusively on things that only government can do (protect the poor, cover us against true catastrophe, enforce safety standards, and ensure provider competition); overcome our addiction to Ponzi-scheme financing, hidden subsidies, manipulated prices, and undisclosed results; and rely more on ourselves, the consumers, as the ultimate guarantors of good service, reasonable prices, and sensible trade-offs between health-care spending and spending on all the other good things money can buy.

These ideas stand well outside the emerging political consensus about reform. So before exploring alternative policies, let’s reexamine our basic assumptions about health care—what it actually is, how it’s financed, its accountability to patients, and finally its relationship to the eternal laws of supply and demand. Everyone I know has at least one personal story about how screwed up our health-care system is; before spending (another) $1trillion or so on reform, we need a much clearer understanding of the causes of the problems we all experience.


Health Care Isn’t Health (Or Happiness)

“Money is honey,” my grandmother used to tell me, “but health is wealth.” She said “health,” not “health care.” Listening to debates over health-care reform, it is sometimes difficult to remember that there is a difference.

Medical care, of course, is merely one component of our overall health. Nutrition, exercise, education, emotional security, our natural environment, and public safety may now be more important than care in producing further advances in longevity and quality of life. (In 2005, almost half of all deaths in the U.S. resulted from heart disease, diabetes, lung cancer, homicide, suicide, and accidents—all of which are arguably influenced as much by lifestyle choices and living environment as by health care.) And of course even health itself is only one aspect of personal fulfillment, alongside family and friends, travel, recreation, the pursuit of knowledge and experience, and more.

Yet spending on health care, by families and by the government, is crowding out spending on almost everything else. As a nation, we now spend almost 18 percent (http://www.newsweek.com/id/202015) of our GDP on health care. In 1966, Medicare and Medicaid made up 1 percent of total government spending; now that figure is 20 percent, and quickly rising. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/rewrite/budget/fy2009/outlook.html) Already, the federal government spends eight times as much on health care as it does on education, 12 times what it spends on food aid to children and families, 30 times what it spends on law enforcement, 78 times what it spends on land management and conservation, 87 times the spending on water supply, and 830 times the spending on energy conservation. Education, public safety, environment, infrastructure—all other public priorities are being slowly devoured by the health-care beast.

It’s no different for families. From 2000 to 2008, the U.S. economy grew (http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=230) by $4.4 trillion; of that growth, roughly one out of every four dollars was spent on health care. Household expenditures on health care already exceed those on housing. And health care’s share is growing.

By what mechanism does society determine that an extra, say, $100 billion for health care will make us healthier than even $10 billion for cleaner air or water, or $25 billion for better nutrition, or $5 billion for parks, or $10 billion for recreation, or $50 billion in additional vacation time—or all of those alternatives combined?

The answer is, no mechanism at all. Health care simply keeps gobbling up national resources, seemingly without regard to other societal needs; it’s treated as an island that doesn’t touch or affect the rest of the economy. As new tests and treatments are developed, they are, for the most part, added to our Medicare or commercial insurance policies, no matter what they cost. But of course the money must come from somewhere. If the amount we spend on care had grown only at the general rate of inflation since 1970, annual health-care costs now would be roughly $5,000 less per American—that’s about 10 percent of today’s median income, to invest for the future or to spend on all the other things that contribute to our well-being. To be sure, our society has become wealthier over the years, and we’d naturally want to spend some of this new wealth on more and better health care; but how did we choose to spend this much?

The housing bubble offers some important lessons for health-care policy. The claim that something—whether housing or health care—is an undersupplied social good is commonly used to justify government intervention, and policy makers have long striven to make housing more affordable. But by making housing investments eligible for special tax benefits and subsidized borrowing rates, the government has stimulated not only the construction of more houses but also the willingness of people to borrow and spend more on houses than they otherwise would have. The result is now tragically clear.

As with housing, directing so much of society’s resources to health care is stimulating the provision of vastly more care. Along the way, it’s also distorting demand, raising prices, and making us all poorer by crowding out other, possibly more beneficial, uses for the resources now air-dropped onto the island of health care. Why do we view health care as disconnected from everything else? Why do we spend so much on it? And why, ultimately, do we get such inconsistent results? Any discussion of the ills within the system must begin with a hard look at the tax-advantaged comprehensive-insurance industry at its center.


Health Insurance Isn’t Health Care

How often have you heard a politician say that millions of Americans “have no health care,” when he or she meant they have no health insurance? How has a method of financing health care become synonymous with care itself?

The reason for financing at least some of our health care with an insurance system is obvious. We all worry that a serious illness or an accident might one day require urgent, extensive care, imposing an extreme financial burden on us. In this sense, health-care insurance is just like all other forms of insurance—life, property, liability—where the many who face a risk share the cost incurred by the few who actually suffer a loss.

But health insurance is different from every other type of insurance. Health insurance is the primary payment mechanism not just for expenses that are unexpected and large, but for nearly all health-care expenses. We’ve become so used to health insurance that we don’t realize how absurd that is. We can’t imagine paying for gas with our auto-insurance policy, or for our electric bills with our homeowners insurance, but we all assume that our regular checkups and dental cleanings will be covered at least partially by insurance. Most pregnancies are planned, and deliveries are predictable many months in advance, yet they’re financed the same way we finance fixing a car after a wreck—through an insurance claim.

Comprehensive health insurance is such an ingrained element of our thinking, we forget that its rise to dominance is relatively recent. Modern group health insurance was introduced in 1929, and employer-based insurance began to blossom during World War II, when wage freezes prompted employers to expand other benefits as a way of attracting workers. Still, as late as 1954, only a minority of Americans had health insurance. That’s when Congress passed a law making employer contributions to employee health plans tax-deductible without making the resulting benefits taxable to employees. This seemingly minor tax benefit not only encouraged the spread of catastrophic insurance, but had the accidental effect of making employer-funded health insurance the most affordable option (after taxes) for financing pretty much any type of health care. There was nothing natural or inevitable about the way our system developed: employer-based, comprehensive insurance crowded out alternative methods of paying for health-care expenses only because of a poorly considered tax benefit passed half a century ago.

In designing Medicare and Medicaid in 1965, the government essentially adopted this comprehensive-insurance model for its own spending, and by the next year had enrolled nearly 12 percent of the population. And it is no coinciLuck_The_Fakers_dence that the great inflation in health-care costs began soon after. We all believe we need comprehensive health insurance because the cost of care—even routine care—appears too high to bear on our own. But the use of insurance to fund virtually all care is itself a major cause of health care’s high expense.

Insurance is probably the most complex, costly, and distortional method of financing any activity; that’s why it is otherwise used to fund only rare, unexpected, and large costs. Imagine sending your weekly grocery bill to an insurance clerk for review, and having the grocer reimbursed by the insurer to whom you’ve paid your share. An expensive and wasteful absurdity, no?

Is this really a big problem for our health-care system? Well, for every two doctors in the U.S., there is now one health-insurance employee—more than 470,000 in total. In 2006, it cost almost $500 per person just to administer health insurance. Much of this enormous cost would simply disappear if we paid routine and predictable health-care expenditures the way we pay for everything else—by ourselves.


The Moral-Hazard Economy

Society’s excess cost from health insurance’s administrative expense pales next to the damage caused by “moral hazard”—the tendency we all have to change our behavior, becoming spendthrifts and otherwise taking less care with our decisions, when someone else is covering the costs. Needless to say, much medical care is unavoidable; we don’t choose to become sick, nor do we seek more treatment than we think we need. Still, hospitals, drug companies, health insurers, and medical-device manufacturers now spend roughly $6 billion a year on advertising. If the demand for health care is purely a response to unavoidable medical need, why do these companies do so much advertising?

Medical ads on TV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXQaMaBxwRg) typically inform the viewer that a specific treatment—a drug, device, surgical procedure—is available for a chronic condition. Many also note that the product or treatment is eligible for Medicare or private-insurance reimbursement. In some cases, the advertiser will offer to help the patient obtain that reimbursement. The key message: you can benefit from this product and pass the bill on to someone else.

Every time you walk into a doctor’s office, it’s implicit that someone else will be paying most or all of your bill; for most of us, that means we give less attention to prices for medical services than we do to prices for anything else. Most physicians, meanwhile, benefit financially from ordering diagnostic tests, doing procedures, and scheduling follow-up appointments. Combine these two features of the system with a third—the informational advantage that extensive training has given physicians over their patients, and the authority that advantage confers—and you have a system where physicians can, to some extent, generate demand at will.

Do they? Well, Medicare spends almost twice as much per patient in Dallas (http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/1457180.html), where there are more doctors and care facilities per resident, as it does in Salem, Oregon, where supply is tighter. Why? Because doctors (particularly specialists) in surplus areas order more tests and treatments per capita, and keep their practices busy. Many studies have shown that the patients in areas like Dallas do not benefit in any measurable way from all this extra care. All of the physicians I know are genuinely dedicated to their patients. But at the margin, all of us are at least subconsciously influenced by our own economic interests. The data are clear: in our current system, physician supply often begets patient demand.

Moral hazard has fostered an accidental collusion between providers benefiting from higher costs and patients who don’t fully bear them. In this environment, trying to control costs is awfully tough. When Medicare cut reimbursement rates in 2005 on chemotherapy and anemia drugs, for instance, it saved almost 20 percent of the previously billed costs. But Medicare’s total cancer-treatment costs actually rose almost immediately. As The New York Times reported, some physicians believed their colleagues simply performed more treatments, particularly higher-profit ones.

Want further evidence of moral hazard? The average insured American and the average uninsured American spend very similar amounts of their own money on health care each year—$654 and $583, respectively. But they spend wildly different amounts of other people’s money—$3,809 and $1,103, respectively. Sometimes the uninsured do not get highly beneficial treatments because they cannot afford them at today’s prices—something any reform must address. But likewise, insured patients often get only marginally beneficial (or even outright unnecessary) care at mind-boggling cost. If it’s true that the insurance system leads us to focus on only our direct share of costs—rather than the total cost to society—it’s not surprising that insured families and uninsured ones would make similar decisions as to how much of their own money to spend on care, but very different decisions on the total amount to consume.

The unfortunate fact is, health-care demand has no natural limit. Our society will always keep creating new treatments to cure previously incurable problems. Some of these will save lives or add productive years to them; many will simply make us more comfortable. That’s all to the good. But the cost of this comfort, and whether it’s really worthwhile, is never calculated—by anyone. For almost all our health-care needs, the current system allows us as consumers to ask providers, “What’s my share?” instead of “How much does this cost?”—a question we ask before buying any other good or service. And the subtle difference between those two questions is costing us all a fortune.


There’s No One Else to Pay the Bill

Perhaps the greatest problem posed by our health-insurance-driven regime is the sense it creates that someone else is actually paying for most of our health care—and that the costs of new benefits can also be borne by someone else. Unfortunately, there is no one else.

For fun, let’s imagine confiscating all the profits of all the famously greedy health-insurance companies. That would pay for four days of health care for all Americans. Let’s add in the profits of the 10 biggest rapacious U.S. drug companies. Another 7 days. Indeed, confiscating all the profits of all American companies, in every industry, wouldn’t cover even five months of our health-care expenses.

Somebody else always seems to be paying for at least part of our health care. But that’s just an illusion. At $2.4 trillion and growing, our nation’s health-care bill is too big to be paid by anyone other than all of us.

In 2007, employer-based health insurance cost, on average, more than $12,000 per family, up 78 percent since 2001. I’ve run several companies and company divisions of various sizes over the course of my career, so I can confidently tell you that raises (and even entry-level hiring) are tightly limited by rising health-care costs. You may think your employer is paying for your health care, but in fact your company’s share of the insurance premium comes out of your potential wage increase. Where else could it come from?

Let’s say you’re a 22-year-old single employee at my company today, starting out at a $30,000 annual salary. Let’s assume you’ll get married in six years, support two children for 20 years, retire at 65, and die at 80. Now let’s make a crazy assumption: insurance premiums, Medicare taxes and premiums, and out-of-pocket costs will grow no faster than your earnings—say, 3 percent a year. By the end of your working days, your annual salary will be up to $107,000. And over your lifetime, you and your employer together will have paid $1.77 million for your family’s health care. $1.77 million! And that’s only after assuming the taming of costs! In recent years, health-care costs have actually grown 2 to 3 percent faster than the economy. If that continues, your 22-year-old self is looking at an additional $2 million or so in expenses over your lifetime—roughly $4 million in total.

Would you have guessed these numbers were so large? If not, you have good cause: only a quarter would be paid by you directly (and much of that after retirement). The rest would be spent by others on your behalf, deducted from your earnings before you received your paycheck. And that’s a big reason why our health-care system is so expensive.


The Government Is Not Good at Cost Reduction

Every proposal for health-care reform has featured some element of cost control to “balance” the inflationary impact of expanding access. Yet it goes without saying that in the big picture, all government efforts to control costs have failed.

Why? One reason is a fixation on prices rather than costs. The government regularly tries to cap costs by limiting the reimbursement rates paid to providers by Medicare and Medicaid, and generally pays much less for each service than private insurers. But as we’ve seen, that can lead providers to perform more services, and to steer patients toward higher-priced, more lightly regulated treatments. The government’s efforts to expand “access” to care while limiting costs are like blowing up a balloon while simultaneously squeezing it. The balloon continues to inflate, but in misshapen form.

Cost control is a feature of decentralized, competitive markets, not of centralized bureaucracy—a matter of incentives, not mandates. What’s more, cost control is dynamic. Even the simplest business faces constant variation in its costs for labor, facilities, and capital; to compete, management must react quickly, efficiently, and, most often, prospectively. By contrast, government bureaucracies set regulations and reimbursement rates through carefully evaluated and broadly applied rules. These bureaucracies first must notice market changes and resource misallocations, and then (sometimes subject to political considerations) issue additional regulations or change reimbursement rates to address each problem retrospectively.

As a result, strange distortions crop up constantly in health care. For example, although the population is rapidly aging, we have few geriatricians (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/30/070430fa_fact_gawande)—physicians who address the cluster of common patient issues related to aging, often crossing traditional specialty lines. Why? Because under Medicare’s current reimbursement system (which generally pays more to physicians who do lots of tests and procedures), geriatricians typically don’t make much money. If seniors were the true customers, they would likely flock to geriatricians, bidding up their rates—and sending a useful signal to medical-school students. But Medicare is the real customer, and it pays more to specialists in established fields. And so, seniors often end up overusing specialists who are not focused on their specific health needs.

Many reformers believe if we could only adopt a single-payer system, we could deliver health care more cheaply than we do today. The experience of other developed countries suggests that’s true: the government as single payer would have lower administrative costs than private insurers, as well as enormous market clout and the ability to bring down prices, although at the cost of explicitly rationing care.

But even leaving aside the effects of price controls on innovation and customer service, today’s Medicare system should leave us skeptical about the long-term viability of that approach. From 2000 to 2007, despite its market power, Medicare’s hospital and physician reimbursements per enrollee rose by 5.4 percent and 8.5 percent, respectively, per year. As currently structured, Medicare is a Ponzi scheme. The Medicare tax rate has been raised seven times since its enactment, and almost certainly will need to be raised again in the next decade. The Medicare tax contributions and premiums that today’s beneficiaries have paid into the system don’t come close to fully funding their care, which today’s workers subsidize. The subsidy is getting larger even as it becomes more difficult to maintain: next year there will be 3.7 working people for each Medicare beneficiary; if you’re in your mid-40s today, there will be only 2.4 workers to subsidize your care when you hit retirement age. The experience of other rich nations should also make us skeptical. Whatever their histories, nearly all developed countries are now struggling with rapidly rising health-care costs, including those with single-payer systems. From 2000 to 2005, per capita health-care spending in Canada grew by 33 percent, in France by 37 percent, in the U.K. by 47 percent—all comparable to the 40 percent growth experienced by the U.S. in that period. Cost control by way of bureaucratic price controls has its limits.


Uncompetitive

In 2007, health companies in the Fortune 1,000 earned $71 billion. Of the 52 industries represented on Fortune’s list, pharmaceuticals and medical equipment ranked third and fourth, respectively, in terms of profits as a share of revenue. From 2000 to 2007, the annual profits of America’s top 15 health-insurance companies increased from $3.5 billion to $15 billion.

In competitive markets, high profits serve an important social purpose: encouraging capital to flow to the production of a service not adequately supplied. But as long as our government shovels ever-greater resources into health care with one hand, while with the other restricting competition that would ensure those resources are used efficiently, sustained high profits will be the rule.

Health care is an exceptionally heavily regulated industry. Health-insurance companies are regulated by states, which limits interstate competition. And many of the materials, machines, and even software programs used by health-care facilities must be licensed by state or federal authorities, or approved for use by Medicare; these requirements form large barriers to entry for both new facilities and new vendors that could equip and supply them.

Many health-care regulations are justified as safety precautions. But many also result from attempts to redress the distortions that our system of financing health care has created. And whatever their purpose, almost all of these regulations can be shaped over time by the powerful institutions that dominate the health-care landscape, and that are often looking to protect themselves from competition.

Take the ongoing battle between large integrated hospitals and specialty clinics (for cardiac surgery, orthopedics, maternity, etc.). The economic threat posed by these facilities is well illustrated by a recent battle in Loma Linda, California. When a group of doctors proposed a 28-bed private specialty facility, the local hospitals protested to the city council that it was unnecessary, and launched a publicity campaign to try to block it; the council backed the facility anyway. (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-134561731/california-regulators-approve-28.html) So the nonprofit Loma Linda University Medical Center simply bought the new facility for $80 million in 2008. Traditional hospitals got Congress to include an 18-month moratorium on new specialty hospitals in the 2003 Medicare law (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/09/us/medicare-law-s-costs-and-benefits-are-elusive.html?scp=1&sq=Medicare+law&st=nyt), and a second six-month ban in 2005.

The hospitals’ argument has some merit: less complicated surgical cases (the kind specialty clinics typically take on) tend to be more profitable than complex surgeries and nonsurgical admissions. Without those profitable cases, hospitals can’t subsidize the cases on which they lose money. But why are simple surgeries more profitable? Because of the nonmarket methods by which Medicare sets prices.

The net effect of the endless layers of health-care regulation is to stifle competition in the classic economic sense. What we have instead is a noncompetitive system where services and reimbursement are negotiated above consumers’ heads by large private and government institutions. And the primary goal of any large noncompetitive institution is not cost control or product innovation or customer service: it’s maintenance of the status quo.


Our Favored Hospitals

In 1751, Benjamin Franklin and Dr. Thomas Bond founded Pennsylvania Hospital, the first in America, “to care for the sick-poor and insane who were wandering the streets of Philadelphia.” Since then, hospitals have come to dominate the American medical landscape. Yet in recent decades, the rationale for concentrating so much care under one roof has diminished steadily. Many hospitals still exist in their current form largely because they are protected by regulation and favored by government payment policies, which effectively maintain the existing industrial structure, rather than encouraging innovation.

Between 1970 and 2006, annual Medicare payments to hospitals grew by roughly 3,800 percent, from $5 billion to $192 billion. Total annual hospital-care costs for all patients grew from $28 billion to almost $650 billion during that same period. Since 1975, hospitals’ enormous revenue growth has occurred despite a 35 percent decline in the number of hospital beds, no meaningful increase in total admissions, and an almost 50 percent decline in the average length of stay. High-tech equipment has been dispersed to medical practices, recovery periods after major procedures have shrunk, and pharmaceutical therapies have grown in importance, yet over the past 40 years, hospitals have managed to retain the same share (roughly one-third) of our nation’s health-care bill.

Hospitals have sought to use the laws and regulations originally designed to serve patients to preserve their business model. Their argument is the same one that’s been made before by regulated railroads, electric utilities, airlines, Ma Bell, and banks: new competitors, they say, are using their cost advantages to skim off the best customers; without those customers, the incumbents will no longer be able to subsidize essential services that no one can profitably provide to the public.

Hospitals are indeed required to provide emergency care to any walk-in patient, and this obligation is a meaningful public service. But how do we know whether the charitable benefit from this requirement justifies the social cost of expensive hospital care and poor quality? We don’t know. Our system of health-care law and regulation has so distorted the functioning of the market that it’s impossible to measure the social costs and benefits of maintaining hospitals’ prominence. And again, the distortions caused by a reluctance to pay directly for health care—in this case, emergency medicine for the poor—are in large part to blame.

Consider the oft-quoted “statistic” that emergency-room care is the most expensive form of treatment. Has anyone who believes this ever actually been to an emergency room? My sister is an emergency-medicine physician; unlike most other specialists, ER docs usually work on scheduled shifts and are paid fixed salaries that place them in the lower ranks of physician compensation. The doctors and other workers are hardly underemployed: typically, ERs are unbelievably crowded. They have access to the facilities and equipment of the entire hospital, but require very few dedicated resources of their own. They benefit from the group buying power of the entire institution. No expensive art decorates the walls, and the waiting rooms resemble train-station waiting areas. So what exactly makes an ER more expensive than other forms of treatment?

Perhaps it’s the accounting. Since charity care, which is often performed in the ER, is one justification for hospitals’ protected place in law and regulation, it’s in hospitals’ interest to shift costs from overhead and other parts of the hospital to the ER, so that the costs of charity care—the public service that hospitals are providing—will appear to be high. Hospitals certainly lose money on their ERs; after all, many of their customers pay nothing. But to argue that ERs are costly compared with other treatment options, hospitals need to claim expenses well beyond the marginal (or incremental) cost of serving ER patients.

In a recent IRS survey of almost 500 nonprofit hospitals, nearly 60 percent reported providing charity care equal to less than 5 percent of their total revenue, and about 20 percent reported providing less than 2 percent. Analyzing data from the American Hospital Directory, The Wall Street Journal found that the 50 largest nonprofit hospitals or hospital systems made a combined “net income” (that is, profit) of $4.27 billion in 2006 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120726201815287955.html), nearly eight times their profits five years earlier.

How do we know whether the value of hospitals’ charitable services compensates for the roughly 100,000 deaths from hospital-borne disease, their poor standards of customer service, and their extraordinary diseconomies of both scale and scope? Might we be better off reforming hospitals, and allowing many of them to be eliminated by competition from specialty clinics? As a society, couldn’t we just pay directly for the services required by the poor? We don’t know how many hospitals would even survive if they were not so favored under the law; anyone who has lost a loved one to a preventable hospital death will wonder how many should.


You Are Not the Customer

What amazed me most during five weeks in the ICU with my dad was the survival of paper and pen for medical instructions and histories. In that time, Dad was twice taken for surgical procedures intended for other patients (fortunately interrupted both times by our intervention). My dry cleaner uses a more elaborate system to track shirts than this hospital used to track treatment.

Not every hospital relies on paper-based orders and charts, but most still do. Why has adoption of clinical information technology been so slow? Companies invest in IT to reduce their costs, reduce mistakes (itself a form of cost-saving), and improve customer service. Better information technology would have improved my father’s experience in the ICU—and possibly his chances of survival.

But my father was not the customer; Medicare was. And although Medicare has experimented with new reimbursement approaches to drive better results, no centralized reimbursement system can be supple enough to address the many variables affecting the patient experience. Certainly, Medicare wasn’t paying for the quality of service during my dad’s hospital stay. And it wasn’t really paying for the quality of his care, either; indeed, because my dad got sepsis in the hospital, and had to spend weeks there before his death, the hospital was able to charge a lot more for his care than if it had successfully treated his pneumonia and sent him home in days.

Of course, one area of health-related IT has received substantial investment—billing. So much for the argument, often made, that privacy concerns or a lack of agreed-upon standards has prevented the development of clinical IT or electronic medical records; presumably, if lack of privacy or standards had hampered the digitization of health records, it also would have prevented the digitization of the accompanying bills. To meet the needs of the government bureaucracy and insurance companies, most providers now bill on standardized electronic forms. In case you wonder who a care provider’s real customer is, try reading one of these bills.

For that matter, try discussing prices with hospitals and other providers. Eight years ago, my wife needed an MRI, but we did not have health insurance. I called up several area hospitals, clinics, and doctors’ offices—all within about a one-mile radius—to find the best price. I was surprised to discover that prices quoted, for an identical service, varied widely, and that the lowest price was $1,200. But what was truly astonishing was that several providers refused to quote any price. Only if I came in and actually ordered the MRI could we discuss price.

Several years later, when we were preparing for the birth of our second child, I requested the total cost of the delivery and related procedures from our hospital. The answer: the hospital discussed price only with uninsured patients. What about my co-pay? They would discuss my potential co-pay only if I were applying for financial assistance.

Keeping prices opaque is one way medical institutions seek to avoid competition and thereby keep prices up. And they get away with it in part because so few consumers pay directly for their own care—insurers, Medicare, and Medicaid are basically the whole game. But without transparency on prices—and the related data on measurable outcomes—efforts to give the consumer more control over health care have failed, and always will.

Here’s a wonderful example of price opacity. Advocates for the uninsured complain that hospitals charge uninsured patients, on average, 2.5 times the amount charged to insured patients. Hospitals defend themselves by contending that they earn from uninsured patients only 25 percent of the amount they do from insured ones. Both statements appear to be true!

How is this possible? Well, hospitals bill according to their price lists, but provide large discounts to major insurers. Individual consumers, of course, don’t benefit from these discounts, so they receive their bills at full list price (typically about 2.5 times the bill to an insured patient). Uninsured patients, however, pay according to how much of the bill the hospital believes they can afford (which, on average, amounts to 25 percent of the amount paid by an insured patient). Nonetheless, whatever discount a hospital gives to an uninsured patient is entirely at its discretion—and is typically negotiated only after the fact. Some uninsured patients have been driven into bankruptcy by hospital collections. American industry may offer no better example of pernicious “price discrimination,” nor one that entails greater financial vulnerability for American families.

It’s astonishingly difficult for consumers to find any health-care information that would enable them to make informed choices—based not just on price, but on quality of care or the rate of preventable medical errors. Here’s one place where legal requirements might help. But only a few states require institutions to make this sort of information public in a usable form for consumers. So while every city has numerous guidebooks with reviews of schools, restaurants, and spas, the public is frequently deprived of the necessary data to choose hospitals and other providers.


The Strange Beast of Health-Care Technology

One of the most widely held pieces of conventional wisdom about health care is that new technology is relentlessly driving up costs. Yet over the past 20 years, I’ve bought several generations of microwave ovens, personal computers, DVD players, GPS devices, mobile phones, and flat-screen TVs. I bank mostly at ATMs, check out my own goods at self-serve supermarket scanners, and attend company meetings by videoLuck_The_Fakers_conference. Technology has transformed much of our daily lives, in almost all cases by adding quantity, speed, and quality while lowering costs. So why is health care different?

Well, for the most part, it isn’t. Whether it’s new drugs to control previously untreatable conditions, diagnostic equipment that enhances physician productivity, or minimally invasive techniques that speed patient recovery, technology-driven innovation has been transforming care at least as greatly as it has transformed the rest of our lives.

But most health-care technologies don’t exist in the same world as other technologies. Recall the MRI my wife needed a few years ago: $1,200 for 20 minutes’ use of a then 20-year-old technology, requiring a little electricity and a little labor from a single technician and a radiologist. Why was the price so high? Most MRIs in this country are reimbursed by insurance or Medicare, and operate in the limited-competition, nontransparent world of insurance pricing. I don’t even know the price of many of the diagnostic services I’ve needed over the years—usually I’ve just gone to whatever provider my physician recommended, without asking (my personal contribution to the moral-hazard economy).

By contrast, consider LASIK surgery. I still lack the (small amount of) courage required to get LASIK. But I’ve been considering it since it was introduced commercially in the 1990s. The surgery is seldom covered by insurance, and exists in the competitive economy typical of most other industries. So people who get LASIK surgery—or for that matter most cosmetic surgeries, dental procedures, or other mostly uninsured treatments—act like consumers. If you do an Internet search today, you can find LASIK procedures quoted as low as $499 per eye—a decline of roughly 80 percent since the procedure was introduced. You’ll also find sites where doctors advertise their own higher-priced surgeries (which more typically cost about $2,000 per eye) and warn against the dangers of discount LASIK. Many ads specify the quality of equipment being used and the performance record of the doctor, in addition to price. In other words, there’s been an active, competitive market for LASIK surgery of the same sort we’re used to seeing for most goods and services.

The history of LASIK fits well with the pattern of all capital-intensive services outside the health-insurance economy. If you’re one of the first ophthalmologists in your community to perform the procedure, you can charge a high price. But once you’ve acquired the machine, the actual cost of performing a single procedure (the marginal cost) is relatively low. So, as additional ophthalmologists in the neighborhood invest in LASIK equipment, the first provider can meet new competition by cutting price. In a fully competitive marketplace, the procedure’s price will tend toward that low marginal cost, and ophthalmologists looking to buy new machines will exert downward pressure on both equipment and procedure prices.

No business likes to compete solely on price, so most technology providers seek to add features and performance improvements to new generations of a machine—anything to keep their product from becoming a pure commodity. Their success depends on whether the consumers will pay enough for the new feature to justify its introduction. In most consumer industries, we can see this dynamic in action—observe how DVD players have moved in a few years from a high-priced luxury to a disposable commodity available at discount stores. DVD players have run out of new features for which customers will pay premium prices.

Perhaps MRIs have too. After a long run of high and stable prices, you can now find ads for discount MRIs. But because of the peculiar way we pay for health care, this downward price pressure on technology seems less vigorous. How well can insurance companies and government agencies judge the value of new features that tech suppliers introduce to keep prices up? Rather than blaming technology for rising costs, we must ask if moral hazard and a lack of discipline in national health-care spending allows health-care companies to avoid the forces that make nonmedical technology so competitive.

In 2002, the U.S. had almost six times as many CT scanners per capita as Germany and four times as many MRI machines as the U.K. Traditional reformers believe it is this rate of investment that has pushed up prices, rather than sustained high prices that have pushed up investment. As a result, many states now require hospitals to obtain a Certificate of Need before making a major equipment purchase. In its own twisted way, this makes sense: moral hazard, driven by insurance, for years allowed providers to create enough demand to keep new MRI machines humming at any price.

But Certificates of Need are just another Scotch-tape reform, an effort to maintain the current system by treating a symptom rather than the underlying disease. Technology is driving up the cost of health care for the same reason every other factor of care is driving up the cost—the absence of the forces that discipline and even drive down prices in the rest of our economy. Only in the bizarre parallel universe of health care could limiting supply be seen as a sensible approach to keeping prices down.


The Limits of “Comprehensive” Health-care Reform

A wasteful insurance system; distorted incentives; a bias toward treatment; moral hazard; hidden costs and a lack of transparency; curbed competition; service to the wrong customer. These are the problems at the foundation of our health-care system, resulting in a slow rot and requiring more and more money just to keep the system from collapsing.

How would the health-care reform that’s now taking shape solve these core problems? The Obama administration and Congress are still working out the details, but it looks like this generation of “comprehensive” reform will not address the underlying issues, any more than previous efforts did. Instead it will put yet more patches on the walls of an edifice that is fundamentally unsound—and then build that edifice higher.

A central feature of the reform plan is the expansion of comprehensive health insurance to most of the 46 million Americans who now lack private or public insurance. Whether this would be achieved entirely through the extension of private commercial insurance at government-subsidized rates, or through the creation of a “public option,” perhaps modeled on Medicare, is still being debated.

Regardless, the administration has suggested a cost to taxpayers of $1 trillion to $1.5 trillion over 10 years. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/26/obama-budget/) That, of course, will mean another $1 trillion or more not spent on other things—environment, education, nutrition, recreation. And if the history of previous attempts to expand the health safety net are any guide, that estimate will prove low.

The reform plan will also feature a variety of centrally administered initiatives designed to reduce costs and improve quality. These will likely include a major government investment to promote digitization of patient health records, an effort to collect information on best clinical practices, and changes in the way providers are paid, to better reward quality and deter wasteful spending.

All of these initiatives have some theoretical appeal. And within the confines of the current system, all may do some good. But for the most part, they simply do not address the root causes of poor quality and runaway costs.

Consider information technology, for instance. Of course the health system could benefit from better use of IT. The Rand Corporation has estimated that the widespread use of electronic medical records would eventually yield annual savings of $81 billion, while also improving care and reducing preventable deaths, and the White House estimates that creating and spreading the technology would cost just $50 billion. But in what other industry would an investment with such a massive annual return not be funded by the industry itself? (And while $50 billion may sound like a big investment, it’s only about 2 percent of the health-care industry’s annual revenues.)

Technology is effective only when it’s properly applied. Since most physicians and health-care companies haven’t adopted electronic medical records on their own, what makes us think they will appropriately use all this new IT? Most of the benefits of the technology (record portability, a reduction in costly and dangerous clinical errors) would likely accrue to patients, not providers. In a consumer-facing industry, this alone would drive companies to make the investments to stay competitive. But of course, we patients aren’t the real customers; government funding of electronic records wouldn’t change that.

I hope that whatever reform is finally enacted this fall works—preventing people from slipping through the cracks, raising the quality standard of the health-care industry, and delivering all this at acceptable cost. But looking at the big picture, I fear it won’t. So I think we should at least begin to debate and think about larger reforms, and a different direction—if not for this round of reform, then for the next one. Politics is, of course, the art of the possible. If our health-care crisis does not abate, the possibilities for reform may expand beyond their current, tight limits.


A Way Forward

The most important single step we can take toward truly reforming our system is to move away from comprehensive health insurance as the single model for financing care. And a guiding principle of any reform should be to put the consumer, not the insurer or the government, at the center of the system. I believe if the government took on the goal of better supporting consumers—by bringing greater transparency and competition to the health-care industry, and by directly subsidizing those who can’t afford care—we’d find that consumers could buy much more of their care directly than we might initially think, and that over time we’d see better care and better service, at lower cost, as a result.

A more consumer-centered health-care system would not rely on a single form of financing for health-care purchases; it would make use of different sorts of financing for different elements of care—with routine care funded largely out of our incomes; major, predictable expenses (including much end-of-life care) funded by savings and credit; and massive, unpredictable expenses funded by insurance.

For years, a number of reformers have advocated a more “consumer-driven” care system—a term coined by the Harvard Business School professor Regina Herzlinger, (http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=bio&facEmId=rherzlinger) who has written extensively on the subject. Many different steps could move us toward such a system. Here’s one approach that—although it may sound radical—makes sense to me.

First, we should replace our current web of employer- and government-based insurance with a single program of catastrophic insurance open to all Americans—indeed, all Americans should be required to buy it—with fixed premiums based solely on age. This program would be best run as a single national pool, without underwriting for specific risk factors, and would ultimately replace Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance. All Americans would be insured against catastrophic illness, throughout their lives.

Proposals for true catastrophic insurance usually founder on the definition of catastrophe. So much of the amount we now spend is dedicated to problems that are considered catastrophic, the argument goes, that a separate catastrophic system is pointless. A typical catastrophic insurance policy today might cover any expenses above, say, $2,000. That threshold is far too low; ultimately, a threshold of $50,000 or more would be better. (Chronic conditions with expected annual costs above some lower threshold would also be covered.) We might consider other mechanisms to keep total costs down: the plan could be required to pay out no more in any year than its available premiums, for instance, with premium increases limited to the general rate of inflation. But the real key would be to restrict the coverage to true catastrophes—if this approach is to work, only a minority of us should ever be beneficiaries.

How would we pay for most of our health care? The same way we pay for everything else—out of our income and savings. Medicare itself is, in a sense, a form of forced savings, as is commercial insurance. In place of these programs and the premiums we now contribute to them, and along with catastrophic insurance, the government should create a new form of health savings account—a vehicle that has existed, though in imperfect form, since 2003. Every American should be required to maintain an HSA, and contribute a minimum percentage of post-tax income, subject to a floor and a cap in total dollar contributions. The income percentage required should rise over a working life, as wages and wealth typically do.

All noncatastrophic care should eventually be funded out of HSAs. But account-holders should be allowed to withdraw money for any purpose, without penalty, once the funds exceed a ceiling established for each age, and at death any remaining money should be disbursed through inheritance. Our current methods of health-care funding create a “use it or lose it” imperative. This new approach would ensure that families put aside funds for future expenses, but would not force them to spend the funds only on health care.

What about care that falls through the cracks—major expenses (an appendectomy, sports injury, or birth) that might exceed the current balance of someone’s HSA but are not catastrophic? These should be funded the same way we pay for most expensive purchases that confer long-term benefits: with credit. Americans should be able to borrow against their future contributions to their HSA to cover major health needs; the government could lend directly, or provide guidelines for private lending. Catastrophic coverage should apply with no deductible for young people, but as people age and save, they should pay a steadily increasing deductible from their HSA, unless the HSA has been exhausted. As a result, much end-of-life care would be paid through savings.

Anyone with whom I discuss this approach has the same question: How am I supposed to be able to afford health care in this system? Well, what if I gave you $1.77 million? Recall, that’s how much an insured 22-year-old at my company could expect to pay—and to have paid on his and his family’s behalf—over his lifetime, assuming health-care costs are tamed. Sure, most of that money doesn’t pass through your hands now. It’s hidden in company payments for premiums, or in Medicare taxes and premiums. But think about it: If you had access to those funds over your lifetime, wouldn’t you be able to afford your own care? And wouldn’t you consume health care differently if you and your family didn’t have to spend that money only on care?

For lower-income Americans who can’t fund all of their catastrophic premiums or minimum HSA contributions, the government should fill the gap—in some cases, providing all the funding. You don’t think we spend an absurd amount of money on health care? If we abolished Medicaid, we could spend the same money to make a roughly $3,000 HSA contribution and a $2,000 catastrophic-premium payment for 60 million Americans every year. That’s a $12,000 annual HSA plus catastrophic coverage for a low-income family of four. Do we really believe most of them wouldn’t be better off?

Some experts worry that requiring people to pay directly for routine care would cause some to put off regular checkups. So here’s a solution: the government could provide vouchers to all Americans for a free checkup every two years. If everyone participated, the annual cost would be about $30 billion—a small fraction of the government’s current spending on care.

Today, insurance covers almost all health-care expenditures. The few consumers who pay from their pockets are simply an afterthought for most providers. Imagine how things might change if more people were buying their health care the way they buy anything else. I’m certain that all the obfuscation over prices would vanish pretty quickly, and that we’d see an end to unreadable bills. And that physicians, who spend an enormous amount of time on insurance-related paperwork, would have more time for patients.

In fact, as a result of our fraying insurance system, you can already see some nascent features of a consumer-centered system. Since 2006, Wal-Mart has offered $4 prescriptions (http://www.walmart.com/4prescriptions) for a month’s supply of common generic medications. It has also been slowly rolling out retail clinics for routine care such as physicals, blood work, and treatment for common ailments like strep throat. Prices for each service are easily obtained; most are in the neighborhood of $50 to $80. Likewise, “concierge care,” or the “boutique” style of medical practice—in which physicians provide unlimited services and fast appointments in return for a fixed monthly or annual fee—is beginning to spread from the rich to the middle class. Qliance Medical Group, for instance, now operates clinics serving some 3,000 patients in the Seattle and Tacoma, Washington, areas, charging $49 to $79 a month for unlimited primary care, defined expansively.

It’s worth pausing over this last example. Many experts believe that the U.S. would get better health outcomes at lower cost if payment to providers were structured around the management of health or whole episodes of care, instead of through piecemeal fees. Medicare and private insurers have, to various degrees, moved toward (or at least experimented with) these sorts of payments, and are continuing to do so—but slowly, haltingly, and in the face of much obstruction by providers. But aren’t we likely to see just these sorts of payment mechanisms develop organically in a consumer-centered health-care system? For simplicity and predictability, many people will prefer to pay a fixed monthly or annual fee for primary or chronic care, and providers will move to serve that demand.

Likewise, what patient, when considering getting an artificial hip, would want to deal with a confusion of multiple bills from physicians, facilities, and physical therapists? Aren’t providers likely to organize themselves to provide a single price to the consumer for care and rehabilitation? And won’t that, in itself, put pressure on providers to work together as efficiently as possible, and to minimize the medical errors that would eat into their joint fee? I suspect we would see a rapid decline in the predominance of the fee-for-service model, making way for real innovation and choice in service plans and funding. And the payment system would not be set by fiat; it would remain responsive to treatment breakthroughs and changes in consumer demand.

Many consumers would be able to make many decisions, unaided, in such a system. But we’d also probably see the rise of health-care agents—paid by, and responsible to, the consumer—to help choose providers and to act as advocates during long and complex care episodes.

How else might the system change? Technological innovation—which is now almost completely insensitive to costs, and which often takes the form of slightly improved treatments for much higher prices—would begin to concern itself with value, not just quality. Many innovations might drive prices down, not up. Convenient, lower-cost specialty centers might proliferate. The need for unpaid indigent care would go away—everyone, recall, would have both catastrophic insurance and an HSA, funded entirely by the government when necessary—and with it much of the rationale for protecting hospitals against competition.

Of course, none of this would happen overnight. And the government has an essential role to play in arming consumers with good information. Congress should require maximum transparency on services, prices, and results (and some elements of the Obama administration’s reform plan would move the industry in this direction). We should establish a more comprehensive system of quality inspection of all providers, and publish all the findings. Safety and efficacy must remain the cornerstone of government licensing, but regulatory bias should favor competition and prevent incumbents from using red tape to forestall competition.

Moving from the system we’ve got now to the one I’ve outlined would be complicated, and would take a long time. Most of us have been paying into an insurance system for years, expecting that our future health-care bills would be paid; we haven’t been saving separately for these expenses. It would take a full generation to completely migrate from relying on Medicare to saving for late-life care; from Medicaid for the disadvantaged to catastrophic insurance and subsidized savings accounts. Such a transition would require the slow reduction of Medicare taxes, premiums, and benefit levels for those not yet eligible, and a corresponding slow ramp-up in HSAs. And the national catastrophic plan would need to start with much broader coverage and higher premiums than the ultimate goal, in order to fund the care needed today by our aging population. Nonetheless, the benefits of a consumer-centered approach—lower costs for better service—should have early and large dividends for all of us throughout the period of transition. The earlier we start, the less a transition will ultimately cost.

Many experts oppose the whole concept of a greater role for consumers in our health-care system. They worry that patients lack the necessary knowledge to be good consumers, that unscrupulous providers will take advantage of them, that they will overspend on low-benefit treatments and under-spend on high-benefit preventive care, and that such waste will leave some patients unable to afford highly beneficial care.

They are right, of course. Whatever replaces our current system will be flawed; that’s the nature of health care and, indeed, of all human institutions. Our current system features all of these problems already—as does the one the Obama reforms would create. Because health care is so complex and because each individual has a unique health profile, no system can be perfect.

I believe my proposed approach passes two meaningful tests. It will do a better job than our current system of controlling prices, allocating resources, expanding access, and safeguarding quality. And it will do a better job than a more government-driven approach of harnessing medicine’s dynamism to develop and spread the new knowledge, technologies, and techniques that improve the quality of life. We won’t be perfect consumers, but we’re more likely than large bureaucracies to encourage better medicine over time.

All of the health-care interest groups—hospitals, insurance companies, professional groups, pharmaceuticals, device manufacturers, even advocates for the poor—have a major stake in the current system. Overturning it would favor only the 300 million of us who use the system and—whether we realize it or not—pay for it. Until we start asking the type of questions my father’s death inspired me to ask, until we demand the same price and quality accountability in health care that we demand in everything else, each new health-care reform will cost us more and serve us less.


$636,687.75

Ten days after my father’s death, the hospital sent my mother a copy of the bill for his five-week stay: $636,687.75. He was charged $11,590 per night for his ICU room; $7,407 per night for a semiprivate room before he was moved to the ICU; $145,432 for drugs; $41,696 for respiratory services. Even the most casual effort to compare these prices to marginal costs or to the costs of off-the-shelf components demonstrates the absurdity of these numbers, but why should my mother care? Her share of the bill was only $992; the balance, undoubtedly at some huge discount, was paid by Medicare.

Wasn’t this an extraordinary benefit, a windfall return on American citizenship? Or at least some small relief for a distraught widow?

Not really. You can feel grateful for the protection currently offered by Medicare (or by private insurance) only if you don’t realize how much you truly spend to fund this system over your lifetime, and if you believe you’re getting good care in return.

Would our health-care system be so outrageously expensive if each American family directly spent even half of that $1.77 million that it will contribute to health insurance and Medicare over a lifetime, instead of entrusting care to massive government and private intermediaries? Like its predecessors, the Obama administration treats additional government funding as a solution to unaffordable health care, rather than its cause. The current reform will likely expand our government’s already massive role in health-care decision-making—all just to continue the illusion that someone else is paying for our care.

But let’s forget about money for a moment. Aren’t we also likely to get worse care in any system where providers are more accountable to insurance companies and government agencies than to us?

Before we further remove ourselves as direct consumers of health care—with all of our beneficial influence on quality, service, and price—let me ask you to consider one more question. Imagine my father’s hospital had to present the bill for his “care” not to a government bureaucracy, but to my grieving mother. Do you really believe that the hospital—forced to face the victim of its poor-quality service, forced to collect the bill from the real customer—wouldn’t have figured out how to make its doctors wash their hands?


David Goldhill is a media and technology executive.

Bender
09-02-2009, 01:15 PM
that whole article reminded me of that old George C. Scott movie called The Hospital. Patients being taken away by mistake for surgeries scheduled for someone else, etc....

imdb - The Hospital (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067217/)

Drachen
09-02-2009, 03:31 PM
Wow, I like this. How do I advocate for it now so that someone will begin thinking about it 30 years after I die??

101A
09-02-2009, 03:40 PM
That's a great article.

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 04:10 PM
Push the health care system into tighter constraints, and we will have more problems.

Drachen
09-02-2009, 04:17 PM
Push the health care system into tighter constraints, and we will have more problems.

what tighter constraints was he proposing?

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 04:28 PM
what tighter constraints was he proposing?

I mean the health care bill in congress. It will cause far more problems than it fixes.

Drachen
09-02-2009, 04:34 PM
Oh, gotchya. what do you think about the topic of this thread?

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 04:36 PM
I didn't read the entire article. The father probably had Sepsis already. It can have pneumonia like symptoms.

I see it as a piece to enrage people only.

clambake
09-02-2009, 04:36 PM
$636,687.75

....corrupt?


anybody else notice the "luck_the_fakers?"

Drachen
09-02-2009, 04:47 PM
I didn't read the entire article. The father probably had Sepsis already. It can have pneumonia like symptoms.

I see it as a piece to enrage people only.

Oh, well if that is the only part that you read, then you only read the "set up." There are a lot of good ideas in this article which he then ties back in to the introductory story pretty well at the end. There is at no point in the article any type of discernable rage. Why comment on the article at all if you aren't going to read it? It would seem easier to just move on, than to venture a guess at what it is about (and miss the mark pretty widely)

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 04:58 PM
$636,687.75 ....corrupt?

Not really. They have base charges that are very high. This way, the make up for the losses of people who they treat who do not have insurance or can pay. It's the nature of the beast.

Informed wise people should shop for hospitals and doctors before they ever need something done. That way, if they have a choice, they can save money.

The cost to the widow was $992. Medicare will pay only a certain amount per line item anyway, it doesn't matter what the bill says.

Like I said. The article was meant only to enrage people. It is not indicative of the entire system.

Let me ask you this when it comes to secondary sicknesses. Just how much more would it cost for a hospital stay to eliminate the threat more than they currently do? Lot's pf sick people, it's easy for things to be transmitted.

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 05:03 PM
Oh, well if that is the only part that you read, then you only read the "set up." There are a lot of good ideas in this article which he then ties back in to the introductory story pretty well at the end. I read enough to know the ideas are full of holes.

Drachen
09-02-2009, 05:04 PM
Not really. They have base charges that are very high. This way, the make up for the losses of people who they treat who do not have insurance or can pay. It's the nature of the beast.

Informed wise people should shop for hospitals and doctors before they ever need something done. That way, if they have a choice, they can save money.

The cost to the widow was $992. Medicare will pay only a certain amount per line item anyway, it doesn't matter what the bill says.

Like I said. The article was meant only to enrage people. It is not indicative of the entire system.

Let me ask you this when it comes to secondary sicknesses. Just how much more would it cost for a hospital stay to eliminate the threat more than they currently do? Lot's pf sick people, it's easy for things to be transmitted.

Well one of the things that he mentioned toward the beginning of the article was that checklist to ensure cleanliness, stating that it costs next to nothing and it decreased the hospital-born infections by 33% in 3 months. I would think that this could have the net effect of more than offsetting whatever cost this checklist represents by lowered liability insurance premiums paid by the hospital.

Drachen
09-02-2009, 05:14 PM
I read enough to know the ideas are full of holes.

It seems odd to me that you would not comment on the main thesis of the article, that we should find ways to allow the health care industry to exist in real world capitalistic competition as a way to increase efficiencies and bring costs down. Instead, you choose to comment on how the health care bill will be a drag on the industry (something very close to a point that he makes when building the case that the entire idea of our health care financing system is flawed). Then you comment on the total amount of her bill stating (I am paraphrasing) that the total amount doesn't matter because Medicare pays only a certain amount, missing his arguement that the more caps that are put on procedures the more doctors are steering patients to other procedures or multiple procedures that may or may not be unnecessary. You are focusing on ancilliary points as the main topic of discussion while missing why they are in the article in the first place. All the while if you are posting, I think it would be interesting to debate the actual topic of the article. Then again, I guess it is arrogant of me to expect things of people.

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 05:20 PM
Well one of the things that he mentioned toward the beginning of the article was that checklist to ensure cleanliness, stating that it costs next to nothing and it decreased the hospital-born infections by 33% in 3 months. I would think that this could have the net effect of more than offsetting whatever cost this checklist represents by lowered liability insurance premiums paid by the hospital.
Yes, one hospital, costing come time. Maybe the infection rate was already abnormally high, and were brought down to normal levels. Reducing by 33% is far from eliminating the threat.

You cannot take one case and think it makes the difference everywhere. Infections are spread various ways, and there is a known and unmanageable rish that you can die with in hospital if you are not otherwise healthy. It's the people who go in health and die that raise red flags to me. Not someone in their 80's who goes in:
just turned 83, and he had a variety of the ailments common to men of his age.
What ailments? Shouldn't we know?

He had Septis for God's sake. That is not a hospital acquired disease. The bacteria that causes it can live in your system for some time until your immunity either drops, and you develop problems, or your immune system destroys it. Lowered immunity = great risk of contracting everything! He could have contracted a dozen other things on his way in from anyone he was around.

Don't tell me you believe the article at face value with all the holes it has.

Drachen
09-02-2009, 05:51 PM
Yes, one hospital, costing come time. Maybe the infection rate was already abnormally high, and were brought down to normal levels. Reducing by 33% is far from eliminating the threat.

You cannot take one case and think it makes the difference everywhere. Infections are spread various ways, and there is a known and unmanageable rish that you can die with in hospital if you are not otherwise healthy. It's the people who go in health and die that raise red flags to me. Not someone in their 80's who goes in:
What ailments? Shouldn't we know?

He had Septis for God's sake. That is not a hospital acquired disease. The bacteria that causes it can live in your system for some time until your immunity either drops, and you develop problems, or your immune system destroys it. Lowered immunity = great risk of contracting everything! He could have contracted a dozen other things on his way in from anyone he was around.

Don't tell me you believe the article at face value with all the holes it has.

Hospitals implementing Pronovost’s checklist had enjoyed almost instantaneous success, reducing hospital-infection rates by two-thirds within the first three months of its adoption.

First of all, let me say that I misquoted the article, the infection rates were reduced by 66% in the first three months. Even so, you are absolutely right 66% != 100%, so it seems that we should throw this idea for only saving 2/3 of the patients.

Secondly, you may be right, these hospitals may have artificially high rates, maybe a "normal" hospital would only see a quarter of the benefit, but as you said before this progress would not be complete, so lets do nothing.

You come back to his father again which, while it was the prompt for him to do his research, it was really didn't have much to do with the article other than being a lead in. This focus on the father is strange to me, I mean, you cannot take one case and think it makes a difference elsewhere.

Lastly, what do you think about the topic of the article?

SpurNation
09-02-2009, 06:04 PM
Well...as an observer in a hospital system while visiting different friends and relatives...I have often noticed that many staff and physicians do not adhere to the anti bacterial solutions available prior to entering and administering.

I notice because I am not (thank God) in these facilities as much as they and am conscious of any rules I must abide while there. Perhaps...not an excuse...because of the regularity...some of the required steps to patient care are not always executed.

Which by the way after an almost novelistic OP is what the author was initially concerned about but turned into an opinionated journal regarding other concerns than that of which his father initially died.

doobs
09-02-2009, 06:08 PM
The general thrust of this article is that health care is lesser consumer-oriented and more inefficient because of comprehensive, third-party insurance. The author suggests ways for moving toward a more sensible attitude toward health insurance, including government-provided catastrophic coverage--with extremely high deductibles--and eliminating the absurd tax subsidy for employer-provided comprehensive insurance. A very interesting, thoughtful article.

I think this author does a good job identifying sources of waste and inefficiency in the current system. Comprehensive, employer-provided health insurance creates distorted incentives and drives prices higher. The same is true if Medicare.

I actually read the article, so I feel confident commenting on it. Good find.

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 06:17 PM
Hospitals implementing Pronovost’s checklist had enjoyed almost instantaneous success, reducing hospital-infection rates by two-thirds within the first three months of its adoption.

First of all, let me say that I misquoted the article, the infection rates were reduced by 66% in the first three months. Even so, you are absolutely right 66% != 100%, so it seems that we should throw this idea for only saving 2/3 of the patients.

Secondly, you may be right, these hospitals may have artificially high rates, maybe a "normal" hospital would only see a quarter of the benefit, but as you said before this progress would not be complete, so lets do nothing.
I am right. If you read the accompanying article, starting of page 4, you see the checklist was used to eliminate mistakes that shouldn't have happened to begin with. A checklist is something you give to someone new at a procedure, and they follow it until they know it. I have dealt with checklists all my professional career. Once you learn it, you choose to ignore a procedure or not. On equipment maintenance, I sometimes pull out a quarterly or annual checklist. Not on things I already know. Requiring skilled nurses and doctors to follow a checklist is simply a joke. In places where a checklist worked, it just shows they were doing things wrong to begin with. In cases where they get sidetracked, a checklist is only going to make things worse time wise. It's an indication more staff is needed, or more training is needed. It's not a solution, but a gauge.

You come back to his father again which, while it was the prompt for him to do his research, it was really didn't have much to do with the article other than being a lead in. This focus on the father is strange to me, I mean, you cannot take one case and think it makes a difference elsewhere.
I think the article would have been better if the father wasn't a topic. It immediately throws me off in a defensive mode to the article, as I'm sure it does others as well.

Lastly, what do you think about the topic of the article?
I think he is grasping for solutions and thinks he has some, in a system too complex for him to grasp.

I didn't read all, but scanned some other parts. I'm not going to conclude more than what I said earlier. His work has holes in it. I notice he mentions high prices of insured services, then the low cost of optional services. This is a problem with people relying on insurance and not having to be a part of cost containment.

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 06:20 PM
Well...as an observer in a hospital system while visiting different friends and relatives...I have often noticed that many staff and physicians do not adhere to the anti bacterial solutions available prior to entering and administering.

Believe it or not, these simple anti-bacterial solutions cause more harm than good. The surviving bacteria develops a resistance to it, and can mutate to other dangerous forms.

clambake
09-02-2009, 06:21 PM
you should have just read the article......and you're alone in your "defensive mode".

Wild Cobra
09-02-2009, 06:29 PM
you should have just read the article......and you're alone in your "defensive mode".
Maybe. I don't like long winded articles, especially when they start out looking like an unfounded rant.

SpurNation
09-02-2009, 06:31 PM
The general thrust of this article is that health care is lesser consumer-oriented and more inefficient because of comprehensive, third-party insurance. The author suggests ways for moving toward a more sensible attitude toward health insurance, including government-provided catastrophic coverage--with extremely high deductibles--and eliminating the absurd tax subsidy for employer-provided comprehensive insurance. A very interesting, thoughtful article.

I think this author does a good job identifying sources of waste and inefficiency in the current system. Comprehensive, employer-provided health insurance creates distorted incentives and drives prices higher. The same is true if Medicare.

I actually read the article, so I feel confident commenting on it. Good find.

Agreed. But in the human scope...the bottom line regarding this situation was not insurance coverage...it was the unprofessional procedures that might have led to the unfortunate death of the father.

I don't see how insurance policies would have attributed to the father's death since obviously the father had adequate health insurance. What I get most is that there is not an adequate enforcement of standard procedures within a hospital system and even if there were...how could that enforcement ever be guaranteed to work unless insurance providers are allowed to witness every aspect of a hospitalized individual?

And as WC mentioned...this medical situation could have been attributed to contraction long before admittance.

clambake
09-02-2009, 06:32 PM
Maybe. I don't like long winded articles, especially when they start out looking like an unfounded rant.

turns out.....the only thing unfounded was your description of this article.

why don't you read it, then discuss it?

it might help you control your urge to jump to conclusions.

clambake
09-02-2009, 06:34 PM
it's my opinion the father had little to do with this man's research and observation.

Drachen
09-02-2009, 08:37 PM
I guess another way to explain it is the following:

I read the Da Vinci Code a few years ago. Some of the book was dedicated to the history of the Templar Knights. I found them interesting so after I was finished, I went and purchased a book about the Templar Knights. This book continued to pique my interests and since I worked in the same shopping center as a Barnes and Noble, I ended up reading every single book on the Templar Knights that they had.



So Clambake and others focusing on the father's story, is the previous paragraph about the Da Vinci Code?

clambake
09-02-2009, 09:38 PM
I guess another way to explain it is the following:

I read the Da Vinci Code a few years ago. Some of the book was dedicated to the history of the Templar Knights. I found them interesting so after I was finished, I went and purchased a book about the Templar Knights. This book continued to pique my interests and since I worked in the same shopping center as a Barnes and Noble, I ended up reading every single book on the Templar Knights that they had.



So Clambake and others focusing on the father's story, is the previous paragraph about the Da Vinci Code?

ummm i think you have mistaken my opinion.

Drachen
09-03-2009, 08:15 AM
ummm i think you have mistaken my opinion.

My point is that the father was the lead in, the prompt for his research just as the Da Vinci Code was the prompt of my research on the Templar Knights.

The father story could easily have been "So I was earining my MHA at Brown University and we were looking for ways to fix the health care system. Along the way I found some surprising things . . . "

It would seem in that scenario you would not focus on what follows (the topic of the paper), rather that Brown's athletic program isnt very good, or that they are not ranked in the top 10 schools to get an MHA.

LnGrrrR
09-03-2009, 09:36 AM
Long but good article. Though I'm afraid conservatives would decry his plan as some sort of socialism. After all, why should I pay as much as someone who smokes or eats unhealthy or doesn't exercise? Arguments of that nature.

TeyshaBlue
09-03-2009, 09:49 AM
Long but good article. Though I'm afraid conservatives would decry his plan as some sort of socialism. After all, why should I pay as much as someone who smokes or eats unhealthy or doesn't exercise? Arguments of that nature.

It's the best article I've read thus far. It reinforces my point that insurance has morphed into something it was never meant to be....and we're responsible for it.

TeyshaBlue
09-03-2009, 09:51 AM
Maybe. I don't like long winded articles, especially when they start out looking like an unfounded rant.

Invest 15 minutes and give it a good read. I think you'll change your tune, WC.

Drachen
09-03-2009, 10:08 AM
Long but good article. Though I'm afraid conservatives would decry his plan as some sort of socialism. After all, why should I pay as much as someone who smokes or eats unhealthy or doesn't exercise? Arguments of that nature.

I'm afraid that liberals would decry that the poor would end up being underserved. It's a two way street, and I am a liberal. I am not sure if this plan would be classified as liberal, or conservative, and I honestly don't care. It would be cool to debate something in a political vacuum based on merits. What are the possible advantages and the likelihood of them happening (including the effects on people), what are the drawbacks, etc. One thing that I would change about his plan would be that people could get private HSA's and have to prove yearly (or semi annually, or quarterly) that they are funding it to the appropriate levels. If they are not, then it will appear as a charge on their taxes. I say this because I think it would be a bad idea for the government to have access to these funds and be able to IOU the accounts.

hope4dopes
09-03-2009, 10:48 AM
Great article Marcus thanks for posting it.

101A
09-03-2009, 11:50 AM
BTW...Brilliant minds think alike (or, if informed, can come to the same conclusions)

I posted this several weeks ago in this forum:


How about this; We put Uncle Sam in a position to do the most good; while not being able to do the most damage (day to day operation and control of people's healthcare). Make the fed the ultimate stop-loss; they pay claims on individuals over $100,000 - to $250,000 (and index it to healthcare inflation biannually); private entities cover everything up to that point - with subsidies for people who cannot afford that lower coverage. The payor's file claims with the govt. for claims over the stop/loss - the govt. reimburses the claim; but doesn't have to get involved directly with the processing - although, obviously, they must have an ability to audit. Pass a regulation, not controlling prices; but making pricing by providers transparent (doctors/hospitals/labs); they must post their charges publicly; and must charge everyone the same price - whatever that might be (I cringe at this suggestion; but for reasons that are more complex than I want to explain - there are a lot of shenanigans that go on in contractual pricing that should be stopped).

Marcus Bryant
09-03-2009, 12:20 PM
One wonders what the premium of a catastrophic policy with a high deductible would cost. There's also the constitutionality of requiring an individual to purchase such a policy. Unlike requiring drivers to purchase auto insurance, which is a requirement for the privilege of driving on a public road, requiring the purchase of a catastrophic health policy could be viewed as a tax on one's existence. I guess the way to get around that would be to make it "voluntary," but if the policies offered met some national standard (ie no exclusions for pre-existing conditions, no loss of coverage after large claims, etc) with a high deductible then the large majority of Americans would enroll, as the premium shouldn't be that high. Insurance companies could then compete on the quality of services offered and offer different policies which offered different levels of deductibles - want a lower deductible, pay a higher premium. That might go against the author's idea as those likely to incur large medical expenses would presumably prefer a lower deductible.

In any event, this is the kind of reform which should be currently discussed, as it addresses the heart of the matter. Obviously there would be quite a few hurdles to overcome, starting with decoupling health benefits from employment and getting insurers out of the business of taking in premiums for the payment of routine medical expenses. Not that I expect anything like this to be considered in DC, as it makes too much sense and would threaten too many entrenched interests to come to pass.

Marcus Bryant
10-26-2009, 09:47 PM
http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=6597

jack sommerset
10-26-2009, 10:02 PM
We can't afford free healthcare. I really don't get why people don't get that. It's not OK to be in debt trillions of dollars. They will pass a bill and we will be bankrupt before you know it.

My Grandma died because of free healthcare in Canada. A routine operation would have done the trick but she could not get in until it was too late. Died on the operating table months after she should have been there at 60.

Some people are living in a fantasy world. Obama and his dems can't save everyone ( I think they want votes) and will hurt more by doing this.

clambake
10-26-2009, 11:42 PM
routine huh?

lets hear it.

boutons_deux
10-27-2009, 05:34 AM
"We can't afford free healthcare."

We can't afford for-profit healthcare.

As a local doctor in an article the E-N said a couple weeks ago, letting poor people have access to primary care costs $1, vs the $20 the public health system spends treating poor people whose diseases advance so far they end up in the ER.

So for you social Darwinian Repugs and conservatives who would rather let people rot and die young, the argument for primary care for the poor is not humanitarian ( an emetic 4-letter word to black-hearted Repugs and conservatives), but economic.

The health care system is fighting like hell not to provide health care, but to preserve and enhance their exorbitant revenues.

AussieFanKurt
10-27-2009, 07:32 AM
hmm reality hits hard in that article

101A
10-27-2009, 07:43 AM
for the record, rita has a metal shard in her finger and went to the doctor to get it looked at

she switched insurance last week, and although she is technically covered, she has not received her card and member # in the mail

she went to the doctor yesterday and was denied treatment because she did not have a member # yet

USA USA

That is an ALL too common problem; her employer made their decision at the last hour; and the employees pay the price for that. Doctor's office often could care less; more individual control of their own coverage; not beholden to an employer would help straighten that out; I don't imagine govt. bureaucracy will improve it, however (regardless of good intentions).

Winehole23
10-27-2009, 08:31 AM
"Patient-centered, outcome oriented."

Medicine should be practiced on the human scale. Instead, patients are fed into a system that puts institutional needs first, and profits ahead of health outcomes.

You don't have to remove profit from the system, or put the whole shebang in government's hands; just emulate the providers like the Mayo Clinic who provide the best quality for the least cost, and standardize best practices. What 101A said upstream about price transparency should go a long way to rein in costs. Encouraging good nutrition and the practice of preventive medicine could do a lot too.

Also, what MB keeps saying about personal responsibility. There's nothing that prevents one from saving on one's own account for life's various contingencies. In the present low-interest scenario (and the future high interest, hyperinflationary one) the incentives for savers isn't very good; maybe some kind of tax credit would encourage people to do it.

Winehole23
08-06-2012, 09:08 AM
Gawande's new piece in the New Yorker ponders possible benefits of health care chains:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/13/120813fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=1

scott
08-06-2012, 09:14 AM
I didn't read the entire article
...
I see it as a piece to enrage people only.


I read enough to know the ideas are full of holes.


I am right.


I don't like long winded articles, especially when they start out looking like an unfounded rant.

ALVAREZ6
08-06-2012, 09:54 AM
:lmao :lmao :lmao ^^^^^

TeyshaBlue
08-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Gawande's new piece in the New Yorker ponders possible benefits of health care chains:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/08/13/120813fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=1

Good article, WH. This push for chain medicine has a built in push back that will be difficult to overcome. That being said, the article illustrates the success of a "one battle at a time" strategy. If you want to play a long-term scenario, then I think success is achievable. But, I sure wouldn't expect to see the paradigm change within the next decade.
It took longer than that for the chain pharmacies to finally exert dominance of design.

Yonivore
08-06-2012, 09:56 AM
The underlying premise sucked, why read the rest?

The guy's father was killed by lazy, overpaid, union workers, responsible for sanitizing rooms between patients and keeping them clean while occupied. Probably SEIU laborers.

That or bad luck. Hospitals are full of germs and it's hard to keep them from infecting people. Not impossible but, it takes diligence.

TeyshaBlue
08-06-2012, 09:57 AM
The underlying premise sucked, why read the rest.

The guy's father was killed by lazy, overpaid, union workers, responsible for sanitizing rooms between patients and keeping them clean while occupied. Probably SEIU laborers.

That or bad luck. Hospitals are full of germs and it's hard to keep them from infecting people. Not impossible but, it takes diligence.

I see you didn't read either article. Good job.

Yonivore
08-06-2012, 10:06 AM
I see you didn't read either article. Good job.
No. The guy starts out saying the health care system killed his father. I disagree with the predicate and life is only so long -- the article looked like a boring read.

Sue me.

TeyshaBlue
08-06-2012, 10:08 AM
Stay uninformed. Your call. Enjoy.

Juggity
08-06-2012, 10:57 AM
:cry don't have enough energy and time to read the article, but do have enough energy and time to type up an indignant response to the article I didn't read :cry

Yonivore
08-06-2012, 11:02 AM
Stay uninformed. Your call. Enjoy.
I'm not sure why you think a guy whose father died from an entirely preventable cause -- sanitation -- has some informative insight on our system of health care.

So, I've read the article and I'm no better informed. I could have said that in one short blurb. In fact, I identified and agreed with most of his observations -- about 20 or 30 years ago.

Sanitation in hospitals is horrible because of lazy, overpaid, union workers that cannot be fired. And post-surgical blood clots are caused by bed-ridden patients not receiving adequate physical therapy, after surgery. Therapists, while not as unionized as hospital sanitation workers, do have unions and it would be interesting to see if the incidence of post-op thrombosis is more or less prevalent in union vs. non-union hospitals.

I've spent quite a bit of time in hospitals, over the years, and just in the past couple of months (don't get hopeful, I wasn't sick), and the therapy for my family, post-op, was fantastic. They came in and had my family members on their feet within hours of surgery (which is only possible due to advances in surgical procedures and technology) and, as a result, my family member were able to recover and leave the hospital in days.

And, during their stays, every staff member having direct contact with the patient used the sanitation station before entering the room. The only person I noted that just came in and did their business were the janitors.

I'd be willing to bet the New York hospital, where his father died, also has a lazy, overpaid, staff of union therapists who allow patients to lie motionless too long and develop blood clots.

Finally, he talks about how it costs over a half million dollars yet, his mother was only billed less than a thousand (I think it should have been nothing since they killed her husband) and he acknowledges Medicare ate a portion of the rest while the bulk probably went unpaid. Except for the $992, seems like a pretty good deal for a week in ICU.

Other than being killed by completely preventable causes that could have been discussed and resolved in about two paragraphs, the rest of his article discusses perceived problems that had nothing to do with his father's death.

I will agree to being peeved about the lack of information technology but, not at hospitals, at the fucking doctor's office. Every time I go to the doctor or optometrist, I have to fill out a multi-page form that asks for all the same information they already have on file.

I don't know if that's causing any deaths but, it is aggravating -- particularly at the beginning of each insurance year when you have to do the 15-pager. It's like they've never heard of databases.

But, at the three hospitals I've had an opportunity to visit this month all three had networked computers in the patient's rooms and the patient wore a bar-coded bracelet that was scanned every time they did a procedure, administered medicine, or discontinued a therapy.

I wonder what the concomitant infection and pulmonary embolism death rate is at those three hospitals.

One other thing. While deep vein thrombosis (the major cause of fatal pulmonary embolisms) are mostly preventable, they're not completely preventable and when you throw a clot that blocks a major pulmonary vein, chances of survival are slim to none -- even if it occurs on the operating table. Sometimes, those are just the breaks.

CosmicCowboy
08-06-2012, 12:07 PM
Agreed. But in the human scope...the bottom line regarding this situation was not insurance coverage...it was the unprofessional procedures that might have led to the unfortunate death of the father.

I don't see how insurance policies would have attributed to the father's death since obviously the father had adequate health insurance. What I get most is that there is not an adequate enforcement of standard procedures within a hospital system and even if there were...how could that enforcement ever be guaranteed to work unless insurance providers are allowed to witness every aspect of a hospitalized individual?

And as WC mentioned...this medical situation could have been attributed to contraction long before admittance.

The hospitals will never discipline the doctors. They compete voraciously for the doctors to do their procedures at their hospitals because of the huge amounts of cash generated. Piss the doctor off and he can switch hospitals overnight. They are never gonna tell the doctor to wash his hands for fear of insulting him.

CosmicCowboy
08-06-2012, 12:12 PM
A beautiful, healthy, athletic lady I know and used to snow ski with tweaked an ACL and went in for a routine orthroscopic surgery. She got an infection in her leg at the hospital and ended up losing her leg at the hip. Hospitals are fucking dangerous places.

boutons_deux
08-06-2012, 12:26 PM
It's all the Union workers' fault, exclusively because they are unionized.

-- Yours in Slander, Yoni

(non-unionized) hospital management and directors have no role in defining/enforcing hospital procedures, because bad-faith UNIONs always block best practices?? GMAFB

ChumpDumper
08-06-2012, 12:37 PM
lol union boogeyman gonn kill u.

LnGrrrR
08-06-2012, 12:48 PM
The underlying premise sucked, why read the rest?

The guy's father was killed by lazy, overpaid, union workers, responsible for sanitizing rooms between patients and keeping them clean while occupied. Probably SEIU laborers.

That or bad luck. Hospitals are full of germs and it's hard to keep them from infecting people. Not impossible but, it takes diligence.

You should've told this guy after his father died, that way he wouldn't have to spend months determining a way to fix our healthcare.

Nice to know that we can fix our health care system by (a) eliminating unions and (b) staying lucky.

Surprisingly enough, that's the solution to 99% of the problems conservatives see in the world.

Yonivore
08-06-2012, 12:53 PM
You should've told this guy after his father died, that way he wouldn't have to spend months determining a way to fix our healthcare.

Nice to know that we can fix our health care system by (a) eliminating unions and (b) staying lucky.

Surprisingly enough, that's the solution to 99% of the problems conservatives see in the world.
You could certainly reduce concomitant infections and post-operative thrombosis if you eliminated unions and brought in a staff who knew their continued employment was based on merit and competence.

ChumpDumper
08-06-2012, 12:57 PM
yoni, just quit making shit up. It's embarrassing to read.

SnakeBoy
08-07-2012, 04:40 AM
The underlying premise sucked, why read the rest?

The guy's father was killed by lazy, overpaid, union workers, responsible for sanitizing rooms between patients and keeping them clean while occupied. Probably SEIU laborers.

That or bad luck. Hospitals are full of germs and it's hard to keep them from infecting people. Not impossible but, it takes diligence.

Actually thus far it has proven to be impossible. Hospital borne infections are a problem in every healthcare system in the world.

I think the first step to having an effective American healthcare model is to actually have a model.

SnakeBoy
08-07-2012, 04:50 AM
What basic model would work best in the US?


There are about 200 countries on our planet, and each country devises its own set of arrangements for meeting the three basic goals of a health care system: keeping people healthy, treating the sick, and protecting families against financial ruin from medical bills.

But we don't have to study 200 different systems to get a picture of how other countries manage health care. For all the local variations, health care systems tend to follow general patterns. There are four basic systems:

The Beveridge Model

Named after William Beveridge, the daring social reformer who designed Britain's National Health Service. In this system, health care is provided and financed by the government through tax payments, just like the police force or the public library.

Many, but not all, hospitals and clinics are owned by the government; some doctors are government employees, but there are also private doctors who collect their fees from the government. In Britain, you never get a doctor bill. These systems tend to have low costs per capita, because the government, as the sole payer, controls what doctors can do and what they can charge.

Countries using the Beveridge plan or variations on it include its birthplace Great Britain, Spain, most of Scandinavia and New Zealand. Hong Kong still has its own Beveridge-style health care, because the populace simply refused to give it up when the Chinese took over that former British colony in 1997. Cuba represents the extreme application of the Beveridge approach; it is probably the world's purest example of total government control.

The Bismarck Model

Named for the Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, who invented the welfare state as part of the unification of Germany in the 19th century. Despite its European heritage, this system of providing health care would look fairly familiar to Americans. It uses an insurance system -- the insurers are called "sickness funds" -- usually financed jointly by employers and employees through payroll deduction.

Unlike the U.S. insurance industry, though, Bismarck-type health insurance plans have to cover everybody, and they don't make a profit. Doctors and hospitals tend to be private in Bismarck countries; Japan has more private hospitals than the U.S. Although this is a multi-payer model -- Germany has about 240 different funds -- tight regulation gives government much of the cost-control clout that the single-payer Beveridge Model provides.

The Bismarck model is found in Germany, of course, and France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Japan, Switzerland, and, to a degree, in Latin America.

The National Health Insurance Model

This system has elements of both Beveridge and Bismarck. It uses private-sector providers, but payment comes from a government-run insurance program that every citizen pays into. Since there's no need for marketing, no financial motive to deny claims and no profit, these universal insurance programs tend to be cheaper and much simpler administratively than American-style for-profit insurance.

The single payer tends to have considerable market power to negotiate for lower prices; Canada's system, for example, has negotiated such low prices from pharmaceutical companies that Americans have spurned their own drug stores to buy pills north of the border. National Health Insurance plans also control costs by limiting the medical services they will pay for, or by making patients wait to be treated.

The classic NHI system is found in Canada, but some newly industrialized countries -- Taiwan and South Korea, for example -- have also adopted the NHI model.

The Out-of-Pocket Model

Only the developed, industrialized countries -- perhaps 40 of the world's 200 countries -- have established health care systems. Most of the nations on the planet are too poor and too disorganized to provide any kind of mass medical care. The basic rule in such countries is that the rich get medical care; the poor stay sick or die.

In rural regions of Africa, India, China and South America, hundreds of millions of people go their whole lives without ever seeing a doctor. They may have access, though, to a village healer using home-brewed remedies that may or not be effective against disease.

In the poor world, patients can sometimes scratch together enough money to pay a doctor bill; otherwise, they pay in potatoes or goat's milk or child care or whatever else they may have to give. If they have nothing, they don't get medical care.

These four models should be fairly easy for Americans to understand because we have elements of all of them in our fragmented national health care apparatus. When it comes to treating veterans, we're Britain or Cuba. For Americans over the age of 65 on Medicare, we're Canada. For working Americans who get insurance on the job, we're Germany.

For the 15 percent of the population who have no health insurance, the United States is Cambodia or Burkina Faso or rural India, with access to a doctor available if you can pay the bill out-of-pocket at the time of treatment or if you're sick enough to be admitted to the emergency ward at the public hospital.

The United States is unlike every other country because it maintains so many separate systems for separate classes of people. All the other countries have settled on one model for everybody. This is much simpler than the U.S. system; it's fairer and cheaper, too.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/models.html

Or should we stick with the let's try a little of everything approach?

Capt Bringdown
08-07-2012, 09:00 AM
The “Secret” to International Health Care Cost Control is Always Government Involvement

Either countries directly own the system and pay fixed salaries to doctors, as in the UK; or they are single payer countries where the government is the only insurer paying a set rate for treatments, as in Canada; or the government creates a regulated all-payer system where all insurance companies pay a low fixed price, as in Japan. While the exact mechanisms vary from country to country the simple fact is that every other first world country pays less for health care because their governments regulate the prices. The governments use some system to mandate that people can’t be overcharged for what is seen as a basic necessity.

MannyIsGod
08-07-2012, 09:07 AM
You could certainly reduce concomitant infections and post-operative thrombosis if you eliminated unions and brought in a staff who knew their continued employment was based on merit and competence.

:lmao Yeah, why would anyone call you a hack?

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 09:08 AM
The “Secret” to International Health Care Cost Control is Always Government Involvement

Either countries directly own the system and pay fixed salaries to doctors, as in the UK; or they are single payer countries where the government is the only insurer paying a set rate for treatments, as in Canada; or the government creates a regulated all-payer system where all insurance companies pay a low fixed price, as in Japan. While the exact mechanisms vary from country to country the simple fact is that every other first world country pays less for health care because their governments regulate the prices. The governments use some system to mandate that people can’t be overcharged for what is seen as a basic necessity.
It's not even a fucking secret.

The only way to keep costs down in a single-payer health care system is to fix wages and ration the provision of medical care.

In the end, bureaucrats decide on your health care. Not doctors and not you.

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 09:08 AM
:lmao Yeah, why would anyone call you a hack?
I don't see anything wrong with that statement.

MannyIsGod
08-07-2012, 09:14 AM
Of course you didn't.

Winehole23
08-07-2012, 09:37 AM
Good article, WH. This push for chain medicine has a built in push back that will be difficult to overcome. That being said, the article illustrates the success of a "one battle at a time" strategy. If you want to play a long-term scenario, then I think success is achievable. But, I sure wouldn't expect to see the paradigm change within the next decade.
It took longer than that for the chain pharmacies to finally exert dominance of design.on cue:

In the summer of 2010, a troubling letter reached the chief ethics officer of the hospital giant HCA, written by a former nurse at one of the company’s hospitals in Florida.

In a follow-up interview, the nurse said a doctor at the Lawnwood Regional Medical Center, in the small coastal city of Fort Pierce, had been performing heart procedures on patients who did not need them, putting their lives at risk.

“It bothered me,” the nurse, C. T. Tomlinson, said in a telephone interview. “I’m a registered nurse (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/nursing_and_nurses/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). I care about my patients.”



In less than two months, an internal investigation by HCA concluded the nurse was right.



“The allegations related to unnecessary procedures being performed in the cath lab are substantiated,” according to a confidential memo written by a company ethics officer, Stephen Johnson, and reviewed by The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/business/hospital-chain-internal-reports-found-dubious-cardiac-work.html?_r=1

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 10:33 AM
It's not even a fucking secret.

The only way to keep costs down in a single-payer health care system is to fix wages and ration the provision of medical care.

In the end, bureaucrats decide on your health care. Not doctors and not you.

Health care is always rationed, one way or another.

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 10:34 AM
Also, I don't see why we can't have a single payor system, and then have private doctors who want to cater to the rich people who want better care, less wait times etc erc

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 10:55 AM
Health care is always rationed, one way or another.
Well, I'd rather have a free market picking winners and losers than the government.

boutons_deux
08-07-2012, 10:58 AM
Well, I'd rather have a free market picking winners and losers than the government.

ideological bullshit

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 10:59 AM
Also, I don't see why we can't have a single payor system, and then have private doctors who want to cater to the rich people who want better care, less wait times etc erc
I think the producers who would end up paying for both systems, would have something to say about that.

And, besides, you'd end up right back where you are...with the non-producers demanding the same level of health care the producers are receiving.

No, the only way Obamacare works (and, even then, "works" is a relative term considering the level of care that will be necessary to keep it afloat) is if he can force everyone to use the same system - except for the elite few, of course.

boutons_deux
08-07-2012, 11:10 AM
More on the Economics of Single Payer Insurance


The proposed Maryland Health Security Act has put the idea of single payer healthcare back on the table. The Maryland chapter of Physicians for a National Health Care Program has summarized its main features and provides a link to the bill. It proposes to lower health care costs by broadening the pool of the insured, lowering administrative costs, and negotiating for better prices on drugs and medical devices (anyone who has purchased pharmaceuticals outside the US will attest that this make a large difference).

Real News Network has run a series of interviews on this plan. You can view Part 1 for an overview. I thought the second and third segments, on the economics, would be of particular interest to readers. Gerald Friedman of UMass Amherst has done a study of the plan which ascertained that it would produce considerable savings, which he describes in Part 2. Part 3 discusses broader economic ramifications, for instance, that employers in Maryland would enjoy a competitive advantage relative to other states, and that implementation of the plan would lead to some businesses shifting more of their operations into Maryland, thus increasing the state’s tax base.



http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/08/more-on-the-economics-of-single-payer-insurance.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NakedCapitalism+%28naked+capi talism%29&utm_content=Google+Reader#uVjQwxz73XAGYGES.99

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 11:41 AM
Also, I don't see why we can't have a single payor system, and then have private doctors who want to cater to the rich people who want better care, less wait times etc erc



Well, I'd rather have a free market picking winners and losers than the government.

The solution set is not binary. LnGrrrR has made a good point, which I've been trying to make forever. Hybridize the Single Payor model.

Let the Single Payor handle the HMO functions...day to day routine checkups and treatments. The single payor piece will go along way to establishing some serious cost savings as well as increasing the quality of care by simply standardizing the back office processes. Everyone uses the same form. Every form goes into a uniform database. It's a no-brainer.

Then let the insurance companies do what they were designed to do....produce insurance plans that leverage risk across time. Freed of the HMO functions, they should be able to reduce premiums substantially and riding on the standardization from the single payor piece, pick up savings in administrative costs to boot.
.

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 12:06 PM
The solution set is not binary. LnGrrrR has made a good point, which I've been trying to make forever. Hybridize the Single Payor model.

Let the Single Payor handle the HMO functions...day to day routine checkups and treatments. The single payor piece will go along way to establishing some serious cost savings as well as increasing the quality of care by simply standardizing the back office processes. Everyone uses the same form. Every form goes into a uniform database. It's a no-brainer.

Then let the insurance companies do what they were designed to do....produce insurance plans that leverage risk across time. Freed of the HMO functions, they should be able to reduce premiums substantially and riding on the standardization from the single payor piece, pick up savings in administrative costs to boot.
.
I'm not certain what you're describing isn't (essentially) what we already have. Those that can afford it have insurance and get both their routine/preventative health care and major health care needs met -- unless they have a pre-existing condition that makes it cost prohibitive to insure.

Those that cannot afford insurance get their routine/preventative health care needs met at government-run free clinics, indigent hospitals, and every emergency room in the country.

The two issues that gum it up are pre-existing conditions and comprehensive care for indigents.

Since insurance is designed to work by leveraging the risk of expending money on on health care against the profit of premiums, it doesn't make sense -- to me -- to force an insurance company to provide coverage for anyone with a pre-existing condition.

Pre-existing conditions aren't a risk, they're a reality. So, if you force insurance companies to accept an insured they're certain will cost them money -- and a lot of it -- they're going to have to change the risk/reward ratio for the rest of us. My premiums go up.

In some respects we're addressing the health care of the indigent with free clinics, Medicare, Medicaid, laws requiring treatment in the emergency room, etc...

Worse off than the indigent or those who can barely afford insurance and get sick. Some don't qualify for the government-run care programs and they can't afford their portion of the health care costs a cut rate insurance policy leaves them to pay.

What Obamacare will result in is that, somehow, the wealthy and elite will continue to be able to receive the best health care money and position can buy while the rest of us will be subjected to whatever one-size-fits-all health care an under-funded and overly-bureaucratic federal government can provide.

I'm not encouraged.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 12:13 PM
No, it's not at all like what I proposed. We still have insurance companies functioning as HMO's, which they do very poorly. By design, HMO is the antithesis of Insurance. Conceptually, they are as far apart as they can be.

Pre-existing conditions are an easy fix, if this is a big of an issue as you think it might be. Cover them under the SP or credit the Insurance company accordingly.

Indigents are covered under SP via Medicade-Medicare guidelines.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 12:14 PM
WTF? Double Post. Man this bbs has been sloooow the last couple of days.:depressed

boutons_deux
08-07-2012, 01:01 PM
Here's some for-profit free-market health care rationing for Yoni

Many Doctors Not Accepting Medicaid Patients

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/medicaid-reimbursement-rate.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/08/07/651591/doctors-not-accepting-medicaid-patients/

Greedy insurance companies, docs, hospitals have priced themselves out of reach of 10Ms Americans, effectively denying them insurance and health care, just the way Yoni likes it.

CosmicCowboy
08-07-2012, 01:09 PM
Meh...we can import some more cheap doctors from India and Pakistan.

ChumpDumper
08-07-2012, 01:31 PM
I think the producers who would end up paying for both systems, would have something to say about that.

And, besides, you'd end up right back where you are...with the non-producers demanding the same level of health care the producers are receiving.So, in the grand scheme of things, you really don't care all that much about life unless that life happens to be in a class that meets your approval.

Wild Cobra
08-07-2012, 01:33 PM
Health care is always rationed, one way or another.
Do you want control of what you can buy or do you want some authoritarian sitting at a deck deciding for you?

ChumpDumper
08-07-2012, 01:35 PM
Do you want control of what you can buy or do you want some authoritarian sitting at a deck deciding for you?That already happens.

ChumpDumper
08-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Personally, I agree with Mitt Romney.








Israel has a really nice heath care system.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 01:40 PM
Do you want control of what you can buy or do you want some authoritarian sitting at a deck deciding for you?

We currently have about zero control of what we buy in the Healthcare market.

Quick. How much do the 5 hospitals nearest you charge for a tonsillectomy?

Wild Cobra
08-07-2012, 02:02 PM
We currently have about zero control of what we buy in the Healthcare market.

Not true.

I have paid as I went out of pocket for a few years, and in doing so paid less than my insurance deductions through my employer. Someone making decent money can shell out the costs of periodic visits and pay less than paying for full insurance, also buy a policy that either has a high deductible, like $10k, a catastrophic type policy, etc.

We have choices, and such methods are cheaper, especially when you have to decode if your ailment is worth paying to see a doctor or not. Too many policies have too low of a copay or no copay. People don't care if they do see a doctor or something trivial, and the whole insurance costs are higher for such reasons.

If a person chooses not to buy insurance, then that's on them. They get treated and billed. If they cannot pay, they can be sued. Poor people don't care as they have nothing worth suing for anyway. People with assets or good income care, and will buy insurance or risk losing those assets.

Insurance need not be mandated, and I think those wanting to take my choices away ought to be sent to some other country.

ChumpDumper
08-07-2012, 02:12 PM
I have paid as I went out of pocket for a few yearsFor what treatments and procedures and medicines?

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 02:26 PM
Paying for it does not equal control, WC. That's absurd. Did you shop for the services? Probably not.

BTW, you are making a stellar case for Single Payor.

johnsmith
08-07-2012, 02:28 PM
Didn't read thread, but on the topic of healthcare, I spoke to a COO of a fairly large contractor and asked him what health care reform is doing to his company. He said, not much really. The percentage to insure employees has gone up slightly, but it's because we are just making employees pay more for the same benefits that they've always received.


AWESOME!!!

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 02:29 PM
WTF? Double Post. Man this bbs has been sloooow the last couple of days.:depressed
It's gone down -- at least where I'm at -- a couple of times over the past week.

johnsmith
08-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Which pretty much sums up my feelings on health care reform.....if it costs me more, I don't like it.

Admittedly, I know very little about health care or it's reform.

xrayzebra
08-07-2012, 02:48 PM
You mean Federalizing health care will make Doctor's smarter. And stop mistakes, how is that the feds keeping letting all the fraud occur.

Oh, I keep forgetting that GS-5 in D.C. knows more than some dumbass doctor.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 02:50 PM
Oh, I keep forgetting that GS-5 in D.C. knows more than some dumbass doctor.

Except that's not the case.

xrayzebra
08-07-2012, 02:52 PM
Except that's not the case.

Then you haven't spoken you to your doctor lately.

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Except that's not the case.
True, they'll be an M.D. with a much higher GS pay grade. But, they'll still be government bureaucrats.

Wild Cobra
08-07-2012, 02:59 PM
BTW, you are making a stellar case for Single Payor.
I could go with a single payer system if it only covered the basics and procedures that control curtail costs. Emergency and preventative care, but not life extending procedures. This also goes along with not mandating insurance companies what they must provide, and leaving that as a free market.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 03:00 PM
Then you haven't spoken you to your doctor lately.

I have. But I take him with a grain of salt. He thinks I'm a genius.:lol

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 03:01 PM
I could go with a single payer system if it only covered the basics and procedures that control curtail costs. Emergency and preventative care, but not life extending procedures. This also goes along with not mandating insurance companies what they must provide, and leaving that as a free market.

Now that's at least an honest proposal with merit. It's a shame we can't get anyone in DC to enter into an honest debate.

SnakeBoy
08-07-2012, 03:44 PM
I could go with a single payer system if it only covered the basics and procedures that control curtail costs. Emergency and preventative care, but not life extending procedures. This also goes along with not mandating insurance companies what they must provide, and leaving that as a free market.

This is essentially what I favor. A national health insurance model (i.e. Medicare for all) to provide basic coverage to everyone and then private market insurance to provide higher levels of care for those that choose to purchase it. Defining what "basic coverage" is becomes the tricky part.

Of course the right would oppose it as a government takeover and the left would oppose it as unfair.

boutons_deux
08-07-2012, 03:56 PM
hardcore public insurance option taken out of all pay, including capital gains, like SS. Covers everybody for everything, no questions asked, no exclusions.

eg, in France, national health insurance doesn't cover vision, hearing, dental.

for-profit insurance would be available for people who want to cover deductibles, vision, hearing, dental, and 5-star luxury treatments.

the killer objection is that private insurance companies would block any such PO scheme, just like they extorted Barry out of PO in return for not blocking ACA.

Wild Cobra
08-07-2012, 04:01 PM
This is essentially what I favor. A national health insurance model (i.e. Medicare for all) to provide basic coverage to everyone and then private market insurance to provide higher levels of care for those that choose to purchase it. Defining what "basic coverage" is becomes the tricky part.

Of course the right would oppose it as a government takeover and the left would oppose it as unfair.
It is against my the libertarian side of me to have such systems, but we do have enough people in this nation who want some form of universal coverage. At least if the coverage is highly limited, there will be that added incentive for people to provide their own supplemental insurance, or seek employment that offers good insurance.

My understanding of employer provided coverage is that it was a benefit to draw the best workforce to work for them than their competition. When you remove such options, we are one step closer to a lowest common denominator society.

ElNono
08-07-2012, 04:02 PM
Meh...we can import some more cheap doctors from India and Pakistan.

We already do.

Yonivore
08-07-2012, 04:04 PM
We already do.
Hence, the phrase, "...some more..."

ElNono
08-07-2012, 04:07 PM
The solution set is not binary. LnGrrrR has made a good point, which I've been trying to make forever. Hybridize the Single Payor model.

Let the Single Payor handle the HMO functions...day to day routine checkups and treatments. The single payor piece will go along way to establishing some serious cost savings as well as increasing the quality of care by simply standardizing the back office processes. Everyone uses the same form. Every form goes into a uniform database. It's a no-brainer.

Then let the insurance companies do what they were designed to do....produce insurance plans that leverage risk across time. Freed of the HMO functions, they should be able to reduce premiums substantially and riding on the standardization from the single payor piece, pick up savings in administrative costs to boot.
.

That's how it works in most places, including most of the so-called "socialized medicine" countries (France, Italy, Germany, etc). You have the state run plan and if you rather have better/different/luxury service, then there's private plans that complement and supplement the standard plan, that you can purchase if you want and you can afford them.

ElNono
08-07-2012, 04:08 PM
Hence, the phrase, "...some more..."

missed that, thanks

ElNono
08-07-2012, 04:18 PM
Those that cannot afford insurance get their routine/preventative health care needs met at government-run free clinics, indigent hospitals, and every emergency room in the country.

But they don't. Emergency rooms have only to "stabilize" your condition and then they're scott-free to ship your ass home. People with disabilities only qualify for Medicare after 2 years. In the meantime, they have to pony up, and a lot of times it simply bankrupts them. And there's a good gap of people that make enough not to qualify for Medicare or Medicaid, yet personal/family insurance is out of their reach. It's the people that are one diagnosis away from personal bankruptcy (half of which happen to be health-related in this country).

The reasons for this situation are varied and have been discussed plenty, but they exist and for a country that spends as much per capita, it shouldn't be there, IMO.

ElNono
08-07-2012, 04:21 PM
This is essentially what I favor. A national health insurance model (i.e. Medicare for all) to provide basic coverage to everyone and then private market insurance to provide higher levels of care for those that choose to purchase it. Defining what "basic coverage" is becomes the tricky part.

Of course the right would oppose it as a government takeover and the left would oppose it as unfair.

I would buy on that, provided that whatever is "basic coverage" is tightly controlled by government cost-wise (much like the VA does). Then you move insurance to "catastrophic coverage" only, and zero management. IMO, that would be substantially better than what we have, and probably cheaper too.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 04:23 PM
Who cares if it's cheaper? That's the wrong metric to use.

Effective is a better one. If we just broke even cost-wise, it would be a win.

coyotes_geek
08-07-2012, 04:28 PM
What's the latest delta on medicare shortfalls? $70 trillion? We better care if whatever we end up doing is going to be cheaper.

ElNono
08-07-2012, 04:29 PM
Who cares if it's cheaper? That's the wrong metric to use.

Effective is a better one. If we just broke even cost-wise, it would be a win.

While I don't disagree, if you have costs always rising faster than salaries, then you're going to have a system out of control. Obviously, if you brake-even, then it's not a concern, but costs would need to be controlled at least to make sure you break even. Any savings are a plus.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 04:31 PM
Yeah, I got ahead of myself a bit. Of course costs are a concern, but shouldn't be the driver. Universal HMO's likely will not save money. But, they will save lives.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 04:32 PM
What's the latest delta on medicare shortfalls? $70 trillion? We better care if whatever we end up doing is going to be cheaper.

We'll just hit CC up for a loan. He dont need those expensive vacations.:ihit

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 04:45 PM
Do you want control of what you can buy or do you want some authoritarian sitting at a deck deciding for you?

Asking the wrong person WC... you know I'm in the military, so I don't have much of a choice, do I? :lol

Of course, I have the choice to pay for it out of pocket, or buy another insurance... which is the same choice that people would have under a universal health care system.

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 04:48 PM
I think the producers who would end up paying for both systems, would have something to say about that.

And, besides, you'd end up right back where you are...with the non-producers demanding the same level of health care the producers are receiving.

Well that's a different fight, of a different scale. I think implementing a nation-wide "basic" level of care would go a long way towards fixing our issues.

Edit: If someone were to get into a catastrophic injury, then the gov't could look into either sharing the load (% of costs) or a cap. Sure, it sounds "draconian" but the health care system right now for people without work is a lot more draconian than that solution.

Let's face it, "death panels" are already in existence, with companies covering some operations and not others. If the gov't made the same decisions, it'd just be acting fiscally responsible, which is what conservatives want.


No, the only way Obamacare works (and, even then, "works" is a relative term considering the level of care that will be necessary to keep it afloat) is if he can force everyone to use the same system - except for the elite few, of course.

Right now, the system benefits the elite few, does it not? And isn't that what conservatives want? It benefits those who make the most money... people with more money have more options. That's never changing.

coyotes_geek
08-07-2012, 04:52 PM
Sooner or later we're going to have to get around to answering these two questions if we want to be serious about making healthcare more affordable in this country. Until then, we're pretty much just discussing how to take the same healthcare costs, shuffle the deck and make more people feel better on the re-deal.

1. What are we going to do about the illegals?
2. What are we going to do about the self-inflicted costs to the healthcare system created by the uniquely-American fat fuck/couch potato lifestyle?

boutons_deux
08-07-2012, 04:53 PM
"basic" level of care

what's that? if you get really UN-basic sick, you aren't covered?

It's the really sick people who cost the most

a Portland managed care organization for Oregon Health Plan, about 25 percent of the adult patients accounted for 83 percent of the spending in 2011.

http://www.politifact.com/oregon/statements/2012/feb/23/alan-bates/does-20-percent-population-really-use-80-health-ca/

and it's the really sick people who are impoverished by medical catastrophe, who declare bankruptcy, and many them ARE insured.

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 04:53 PM
Not true.

I have paid as I went out of pocket for a few years, and in doing so paid less than my insurance deductions through my employer. Someone making decent money can shell out the costs of periodic visits and pay less than paying for full insurance, also buy a policy that either has a high deductible, like $10k, a catastrophic type policy, etc.

We have choices, and such methods are cheaper, especially when you have to decode if your ailment is worth paying to see a doctor or not. Too many policies have too low of a copay or no copay. People don't care if they do see a doctor or something trivial, and the whole insurance costs are higher for such reasons.

If a person chooses not to buy insurance, then that's on them. They get treated and billed. If they cannot pay, they can be sued. Poor people don't care as they have nothing worth suing for anyway. People with assets or good income care, and will buy insurance or risk losing those assets.

Insurance need not be mandated, and I think those wanting to take my choices away ought to be sent to some other country.

And what happens if something horrific happens and you are hospitalized with a major disease or injury? Could you afford the bills without a significant reduction in your lifestyle?

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 04:54 PM
This is essentially what I favor. A national health insurance model (i.e. Medicare for all) to provide basic coverage to everyone and then private market insurance to provide higher levels of care for those that choose to purchase it. Defining what "basic coverage" is becomes the tricky part.

Of course the right would oppose it as a government takeover and the left would oppose it as unfair.

I think the above would be a great first step. Too bad the discussion is poisoned by politicians on both sides.

CosmicCowboy
08-07-2012, 04:55 PM
Well that's a different fight, of a different scale. I think implementing a nation-wide "basic" level of care would go a long way towards fixing our issues.

Edit: If someone were to get into a catastrophic injury, then the gov't could look into either sharing the load (% of costs) or a cap. Sure, it sounds "draconian" but the health care system right now for people without work is a lot more draconian than that solution.

Let's face it, "death panels" are already in existence, with companies covering some operations and not others. If the gov't made the same decisions, it'd just be acting fiscally responsible, which is what conservatives want.



Right now, the system benefits the elite few, does it not? And isn't that what conservatives want? It benefits those who make the most money... people with more money have more options. That's never changing.

I could live with that. Kind of a "Texas Med clinic" model where you have 24 hour neighborhood walk-in clinics that handle all the basic stuff for a modest co-pay, then you have catastrophic insurance and the normal specialists for the big stuff. We would still have to do something about the drugs, though. That's a HUGE part of insurance health dollars.

LnGrrrR
08-07-2012, 04:58 PM
1. What are we going to do about the illegals?

Amnesty them so they can start paying taxes and contributing. Of course, that would mean we should only amnesty those < 30... :lol


2. What are we going to do about the self-inflicted costs to the healthcare system created by the uniquely-American fat fuck/couch potato lifestyle?

That's a biggie. I'd suggest something like a mandated fitness class for continuing benefits, but that would never ever ever get passed.

Then again, I have a different perspective on things since I'm planning on being a "lifer" in the military. We have to do all that stuff anyways, so I don't see what the big deal is. :lol

coyotes_geek
08-07-2012, 05:00 PM
We would still have to do something about the drugs, though. That's a HUGE part of insurance health dollars.

We've got to drop the walls when it comes to importing prescriptions from other countries.

ElNono
08-07-2012, 05:00 PM
Sooner or later we're going to have to get around to answering these two questions if we want to be serious about making healthcare more affordable in this country. Until then, we're pretty much just discussing how to take the same healthcare costs, shuffle the deck and make more people feel better on the re-deal.

1. What are we going to do about the illegals?
2. What are we going to do about the self-inflicted costs to the healthcare system created by the uniquely-American fat fuck/couch potato lifestyle?

Not so sure it circles around that, IMO. We're already paying for both right now, either through Medicaid or unpaid emergency room visits. If your question is: should they be part of this "basic package" program? then it's debatable. At least in the Medicaid case, they already are. So perhaps it would be a good time to tighten up Medicaid and only provide emergency services. Just a thought.

ElNono
08-07-2012, 05:02 PM
I could live with that. Kind of a "Texas Med clinic" model where you have 24 hour neighborhood walk-in clinics that handle all the basic stuff for a modest co-pay, then you have catastrophic insurance and the normal specialists for the big stuff. We would still have to do something about the drugs, though. That's a HUGE part of insurance health dollars.


We've got to drop the walls when it comes to importing prescriptions from other countries.

The biggest problem with that is BigPharma not wanting to close the dollar hose... looking at the ACA, it's quite apparent they have a lot of influence at the top.

TeyshaBlue
08-07-2012, 05:07 PM
We've got to drop the walls when it comes to importing prescriptions from other countries.

Or do what I did in college. Get meds from a veterinarian at about 20% the cost.:lol

Capt Bringdown
08-07-2012, 08:19 PM
Health care is always rationed, one way or another.

Indeed. Profit-care killed my father.
One week he was getting rationed HMO care, which included such "treatment" as Ben Gay for chronic ankle pain.
The next week, after a medical test that he payed for out of pocket revealed cancer, he was in the hospital getting his leg amputated below the knee and tumors removed from his lungs.

SnakeBoy
08-07-2012, 09:52 PM
Indeed. Profit-care killed my father.
One week he was getting rationed HMO care, which included such "treatment" as Ben Gay for chronic ankle pain.
The next week, after a medical test that he payed for out of pocket revealed cancer, he was in the hospital getting his leg amputated below the knee and tumors removed from his lungs.

Sounds like cancer killed your father.

coyotes_geek
08-08-2012, 08:03 AM
Amnesty them so they can start paying taxes and contributing. Of course, that would mean we should only amnesty those < 30... :lol


I was thinking something more "libertarian". Like the government making all illegals get spayed or neutered, deporting them all and shooting any of them who try to cross the border illegally. :p:

coyotes_geek
08-08-2012, 08:35 AM
Not so sure it circles around that, IMO. We're already paying for both right now, either through Medicaid or unpaid emergency room visits. If your question is: should they be part of this "basic package" program? then it's debatable. At least in the Medicaid case, they already are. So perhaps it would be a good time to tighten up Medicaid and only provide emergency services. Just a thought.

Really my question is about stopping the current practice of just sweeping this issue under the rug. They're here and it costs a lot of money to treat them. We really do need to have the conversation about what services we're going to provide them and how those services will be paid for.


The biggest problem with that is BigPharma not wanting to close the dollar hose... looking at the ACA, it's quite apparent they have a lot of influence at the top.

Yep. You'd think a free market solution that lowers costs for everyone and doesn't require any taxes or another govt bureaucracy would be the one thing that republicans and democrats could come together on, but no. Pretty sad really.


Or do what I did in college. Get meds from a veterinarian at about 20% the cost.:lol

I'll bet your coat was nice and shiny. :p:

DMC
08-08-2012, 08:55 AM
The same people punching the same bag.

Yonivore
08-08-2012, 09:11 AM
The same people punching the same bag.
That's every thread in this joint, DMC.

boutons_deux
08-08-2012, 09:50 AM
"free market solution that lowers costs for everyone and doesn't require any taxes or another govt bureaucracy"

there is no free market in health care

a free market would allow consumers to shop for best price, best reputation,

but there are essentially no published prices for health care procedures,

no "user groups" or forums to discuss "quality"/reputation,

and then there is the group insured person facing the FREE-MARKET in-network/out-network barriers.

employer insured don't have free choice of insurance plans (aka no compeitition).

And NONE of the above is govt bureaucracy, nor Yoni's beloved unions.

It's how the greedy FREE-MARKET FOR-PROFIT health care system optimizes its profits while minimizing product (health care) delivery. aka, the highest possible price for the shittiest possible product.

Where govt did fuck up is the dubya/dickhead REPUGS making a REGULATION that forbids US govt to negotiate as single-buyer with BigPharma and similar suppliers, so US health-care victims pay DOUBLE the drug prices paid in countries where the GOVT is the SINGLE BUYER.

LnGrrrR
08-08-2012, 11:42 AM
I was thinking something more "libertarian". Like the government making all illegals get spayed or neutered, deporting them all and shooting any of them who try to cross the border illegally. :p:

:rollin:rollin:rollin

ElNono
08-08-2012, 11:59 AM
Really my question is about stopping the current practice of just sweeping this issue under the rug. They're here and it costs a lot of money to treat them. We really do need to have the conversation about what services we're going to provide them and how those services will be paid for.

I've yet to see what the burden is from them on the healthcare system. Not suggesting they're not a burden or that they don't cost a lot of money, but it's hard to gauge the impact without knowing how much of a real problem it is.


Yep. You'd think a free market solution that lowers costs for everyone and doesn't require any taxes or another govt bureaucracy would be the one thing that republicans and democrats could come together on, but no. Pretty sad really.

There's more than the issue of importing generics. There's also the patents on drugs and medicine in general. Perhaps what needs to happen is the duration on such market-distortion policies needs to be shortened for healthcare products, or simply removed for products within the "basic care" package. There's simply many options, but none that BigPharma will be pleased with.

Winehole23
08-23-2012, 07:21 AM
neat graphic: http://www.chcf.org/publications/2012/08/data-viz-hcc-national

via The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/08/mapping-americas-healthcare-costs)

Winehole23
09-20-2013, 08:35 AM
In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous "To Err Is Human" report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals. The number was initially disputed, but is now widely accepted by doctors and hospital officials — and quoted ubiquitously in the media.






In 2010, the Office of Inspector General for Health and Human Services said that bad hospital care contributed to the deaths of 180,000 patients in Medicare alone in a given year.
Now comes a study in the current issue (http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2. aspx) of the Journal of Patient Safety that says the numbers may be much higher — between 210,000 and 440,000 patients (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/781687-john-james-a-new-evidence-based-estimate-of.html#document/p1/a117333) each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death, the study says.


That would make medical errors the third-leading cause of death in America (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm), behind heart disease, which is the first, and cancer, which is second.

http://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2013/09/20/how_many_die_from_medical_mistakes_in_us_hospitals _659.html

http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2. aspx

boutons_deux
09-20-2013, 09:03 AM
http://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2013/09/20/how_many_die_from_medical_mistakes_in_us_hospitals _659.html

http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2. aspx

iow, the for-profit health care system is yet just another mortal threat to Americans that far outweighs the mortal threat from external enemies. It sounds like when Americans pay $3T/year for health care, they get the what they pay for: the shittiest, mostly deadly capitalist product for the highest possible price.

Ignignokt
09-20-2013, 10:53 AM
Wow, I read the article and it provided both the best detailed summary of what's wrong with mixed market healthcare, and arguments against govt intervention, yet I saw the biggest dumb ass tools like Wild Cuckbra and Yonihole treat it as if it was a pro union- Michael Moore piece.

Good God, board Conservatives are freakin dumbasses.

Chump-dump was right all along.

These fockers don't read.

Ignignokt
09-20-2013, 10:54 AM
I didn't read the entire article. The father probably had Sepsis already. It can have pneumonia like symptoms.

I see it as a piece to enrage people only.

Drink Bleach

Wild Cobra
09-20-2013, 11:30 AM
Drink Bleach

What's your problem? Get hit in the head and lose IQ points today? What is the purpose of your unwarranted attacks on me today?

Back to the Septis. I had an immediate dislike of the story because Septis IS NOT A HOSPITAL CAUSED INFECTION! The author starts out lying, so why should I believe any of his words?

link: Pneumonia and Sepsis (http://www.sepsisalliance.org/sepsis_and/pneumonia/)


Sepsis and septic shock can result from an infection anywhere in the body, including pneumonia.

Look around the site. I ask you to learn what causes septis, you

Wild Cobra
09-20-2013, 11:34 AM
link: Definition of Sepsis (http://www.sepsisalliance.org/sepsis/definition/)


Definition of Sepsis

sep•sis (ˈsep-səs) n. Sometimes called blood poisoning, sepsis is the body's often deadly response to infection.

Medical professionals have been debating the exact definition of sepsis for decades. However, one thing they can agree upon is the origin of the disease. The word sepsis comes from the Greek meaning “decay” or “to putrefy.” In medical terms, sepsis is defined as either “the presence of pathogenic organisms or their toxins in the blood and tissues” or “the poisoned condition resulting from the presence of pathogens or their toxins as in septicemia.”

Patients are given a diagnosis of sepsis when they develop clinical signs of infections or systemic inflammation; sepsis is not diagnosed based on the location of the infection or by the name of the causative microbe. Physicians draw from a list of signs and symptoms in order to make a diagnosis of sepsis, including abnormalities of body temperature, heart rate, respiratory rate, and white blood cell count. Sepsis may be diagnosed in a 72-year-old man with pneumonia, fever, and a high white blood count, and in a 3-month-old with appendicitis, low body temperature, and a low white count.

Sepsis is defined as severe when these findings occur in association with signs of organ dysfunction, such as hypoxemia, oliguria, lactic acidosis, elevated liver enzymes, and altered cerebral function. Nearly all victims of severe sepsis require treatment in an intensive care unit for several days or weeks. While most cases of sepsis are associated with disease or injury, many events follow routine, even elective surgery.

More frightening is that sepsis can rage in response to incidents as seemingly benign as a playground scrape or a nicked cuticle from the beauty parlor. American hospitals spend approximately $20 billion each year combating sepsis, 40% of patients diagnosed with severe sepsis do not survive. Until a cure for sepsis is found, early detection is the surest hope for survival.

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 12:17 PM
Siemens called and asked you to actually read up on the subject.

http://www.healthcare.siemens.com/clinical-specialities/sepsis/what-is-sepsis/defining-sepsis

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 12:19 PM
nfection site Example
Lungs
Viral or bacterial pneumonia
Abdomenb
Acute appendicitis (rupture risk)
Gastrointestinal disorders (can allow leakage of intestinal bacteria into the abdomen)
Peritonitis (infection of the abdominal cavity),
Pancreatitis
Gallbladder or liver infections
Postsurgical infections
Trauma
Urinary tractc
Bladder infection
Kidney infection
Temporary or indwelling catheter (for bladder drainage)
Skin
Skin wounds
Skin inflammation
Cellulitis (inflammation of the skin's connective tissue)
Intravenous (IV) catheters (tubes inserted into the body to administer or drain fluids)
Central nervous system
Viral or bacterial meningitis
Viral or bacterial encephalitis
Cardiovascular system
Infectious endocarditis
Ischemia (inadequate blood supply) resulting in infection, leading to gangrene
Septicemia (blood infection)

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 12:21 PM
I almost lost my brother to both sepsis and later to a staph infection as a direct result of hip surgery.

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 12:22 PM
So yeah, sepsis can be a hospital caused infection. You are demonstrably wrong again. Let the obfuscation begin.

mrsmaalox
09-20-2013, 01:51 PM
First off I'll say I didn't read that entire article, and just skimmed over the comments that followed. I think the confusion about sepsis arises from the fact that the author and many think that sepsis is an infection. Sepsis is a condition caused by an infection. That infection may be hospital borne or acquired outside of the hospital, but in either case could lead to sepsis if not treated in a timely manner or as in hospital borne infections, the patient is already in a compromised state.

It's funny to me that the author touts the 2001 checklist of Dr. Pronovost as the answer to the prevention of hospital borne infection related sepsis, when that checklist has been the minimal standard of care at least since I was in nursing school late 80's and early 90's. That doctor turned around a negligent hospital by enforcing what they should have been doing all along anyway; and even the most stringent hospitals have infection control issues----what can one expect with a building full of sick, infected people? Keeping sterile/isolation conditions for every patient may be the answer, but certainly wouldn't be cost effective or profitable. As the author pointed out, he is a business man not a healthcare professional. And that in itself is part of the problem----healthcare is delivered by healthcare professionals, the healthcare industry is run by businessmen.

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 01:57 PM
First off I'll say I didn't read that entire article, and just skimmed over the comments that followed. I think the confusion about sepsis arises from the fact that the author and many think that sepsis is an infection. Sepsis is a condition caused by an infection. That infection may be hospital borne or acquired outside of the hospital, but in either case could lead to sepsis if not treated in a timely manner or as in hospital borne infections, the patient is already in a compromised state.

It's funny to me that the author touts the 2001 checklist of Dr. Pronovost as the answer to the prevention of hospital borne infection related sepsis, when that checklist has been the minimal standard of care at least since I was in nursing school late 80's and early 90's. That doctor turned around a negligent hospital by enforcing what they should have been doing all along anyway; and even the most stringent hospitals have infection control issues----what can one expect with a building full of sick, infected people? Keeping sterile/isolation conditions for every patient may be the answer, but certainly wouldn't be cost effective or profitable. As the author pointed out, he is a business man not a healthcare professional. And that in itself is part of the problem----healthcare is delivered by healthcare professionals, the healthcare industry is run by businessmen.

Yeah, I was just couching the response in WC's own terms. I figured his head would asplode if I mentioned it was a result of the intersection of SIRS and an infection.:lol

Wild Cobra
09-20-2013, 05:30 PM
Yeah, I was just couching the response in WC's own terms. I figured his head would asplode if I mentioned it was a result of the intersection of SIRS and an infection.:lol
Think as you like. The response Mrs Maalox gave is pretty close to my thoughts. He goes in for pneumonia with is of the leading causes to a septic reaction. There is no evidence that the reaction was the fault of the hospital. Only that he was in the hospital.

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 06:53 PM
Think as you like. The response Mrs Maalox gave is pretty close to my thoughts. He goes in for pneumonia with is of the leading causes to a septic reaction. There is no evidence that the reaction was the fault of the hospital. Only that he was in the hospital.

Here's what I think, retard. You stated
Septis IS NOT A HOSPITAL CAUSED INFECTION

Then I bitch slapped you with facts.

lol

TeyshaBlue
09-20-2013, 06:55 PM
and lofuckingl at "leading causes". Holy shit!:lmao:lmao

FuzzyLumpkins
09-20-2013, 07:35 PM
What's your problem? Get hit in the head and lose IQ points today? What is the purpose of your unwarranted attacks on me today?

Back to the Septis. I had an immediate dislike of the story because Septis IS NOT A HOSPITAL CAUSED INFECTION! The author starts out lying, so why should I believe any of his words?

link: Pneumonia and Sepsis (http://www.sepsisalliance.org/sepsis_and/pneumonia/)



Look around the site. I ask you to learn what causes septis, you

He just think you're a moron. You can add another one to the tally. No one is interested in researching your bullshit for you.

Wild Cobra
09-20-2013, 08:08 PM
So yeah, sepsis can be a hospital caused infection. You are demonstrably wrong again. Let the obfuscation begin.

Yes, but because of surgery. Not when you come in for pneumonia.

ElNono
09-21-2013, 03:31 AM
Yes, but because of surgery. Not when you come in for pneumonia.

Community acquired PNEUMONIA - Adult (any age)

Hospitalized patient:
Azithromycin 500mg IV once daily PLUS Ceftriaxone 1 gram q24h (OR)

Azithromycin 500mg IV once daily PLUS
Ertapenem 1 gram q24h (OR)

Monotherapy:
Levofloxacin 750 mg IV/PO once daily (OR)
Moxifloxacin 400mg IV qd.

http://www.globalrph.com/antibiotic/pneumonia.htm


Intravenous (IV) catheters (tubes inserted into the body to administer or drain fluids)

http://www.rocketryforum.com/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

mouse
09-21-2013, 03:45 AM
Yes, but because of surgery. Not when you come in for pneumonia.

So if I have TB and I am security guard at the Hospital you have been admitted to and I help you to your seat and you get TB you still defend your misguided stance?

TDMVPDPOY
09-21-2013, 05:58 AM
why not get the drugs from alternative country where the prices are dirt cheap to produce, import that shit and have it administered by the professionals...

drop the fkn costs even further by limiting negligence insurance payouts to patients...

Winehole23
01-05-2014, 05:43 PM
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904742804579282331704906474.html

SnakeBoy
01-05-2014, 08:15 PM
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904742804579282331704906474.html

Started to read it but the author opens up implying hospital borne infections are unique to American hospitals and then states they can be prevent just by washing hands...so I stopped.

boutons_deux
01-06-2014, 06:42 AM
Started to read it but the author opens up implying hospital borne infections are unique to American hospitals and then states they can be prevent just by washing hands...so I stopped.

goddam, you're stupid.

"implying hospital borne infections are unique to American hospitals" no such implication was made.

"washing hands" multiple studies have shown that hospital staff not washing/washing hands causes/reduces spread of hospital-acquired infections.

goddam, you're stupid.

Winehole23
01-06-2014, 11:27 AM
Started to read it but the author opens up implying hospital borne infections are unique to American hospitals and then states they can be prevent just by washing hands...so I stopped.Overread and oversimplified, but I guess you'll never find out.

boutons_deux
01-10-2014, 05:38 PM
Do Hospital Workers Really Wash Their Hands?

What they found: compliance only averaged around 50 percent — with some instances as low as 30 percent. Granted, the nurses were better than the doctors, by about 5 or 10 percentage points. But neither rated very highly.

“We started pretty darn low, and it was embarrassing, as you could imagine,” Elliott said.

There was plenty of resistance to improving, he said. Some surgeons said they couldn’t be part of the problem because they spent so much time in the operating room. Other staff members said it wasn’t convenient to wash up so often, despite the many alcohol-based hand-washing stations throughout the hospital.

And some, Elliott said, just didn’t realize they had to wash their hands before and after they interacted with each patient, or moved from room to room.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/hunting-the-nightmare-bacteria/do-hospital-workers-really-wash-their-hands/

boutons_deux
01-10-2014, 05:41 PM
Hospital-acquired super bug

Illinois “Nightmare Bacteria” Outbreak Raises Alarms

The largest U.S. outbreak on record of one particular strain of a so-called “nightmare bacteria” is fueling alarm among public health officials about the spread of potentially lethal drug-resistant infections.

The outbreak, which has been traced to Advocate Lutheran General Hospital in suburban Chicago, has so far infected 44 people, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Since 2009, just 96 cases of the infection have been reported to the agency.

The bacteria strain, known as carbapenem-resistant enterobacteriaceae (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/hunting-the-nightmare-bacteria/meet-the-nightmare-bacteria/) (CRE), is a form of superbug that lives in the gut and can carry a gene called NDM-1 that is resistant to practically all antibiotics on the market today. Perhaps more alarming, the gene can jump from bacteria to bacteria, making treatable infections untreatable.

The bug at the center of the Illinois outbreak is among those detailed in a 2013 report by the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/threat-report-2013/pdf/ar-threats-2013-508.pdf) warning of “potentially catastrophic consequences” if action isn’t taken against the threat of antibiotic-resistant infections. That threat, which kills an estimated 23,000 Americans each year,

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/health-science-technology/hunting-the-nightmare-bacteria/illinois-nightmare-bacteria-outbreak-raises-alarms/?elq=7beaa367657940169b26d6f2ffd535b2&elqCampaignId=793

spursncowboys
01-10-2014, 06:53 PM
why not get the drugs from alternative country where the prices are dirt cheap to produce, import that shit and have it administered by the professionals...

drop the fkn costs even further by limiting negligence insurance payouts to patients...

Or the govt. could buy the patent and then post the ingredients on a website for everyone to see.

Winehole23
08-02-2018, 12:42 AM
kills mothers too:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/deadly-deliveries/2018/07/26/maternal-mortality-rates-preeclampsia-postpartum-hemorrhage-safety/546889002/

Winehole23
08-02-2018, 12:43 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjeiZlVW4AAVmtF.jpg

ElNono
08-02-2018, 03:22 AM
related:

Trump agrees to let insurers sell cheaper health plans than ObamaCare

The Trump administration on Wednesday said it will allow insurers to sell short-term health care plans as a cheaper alternative to ObamaCare, but the policies will not cover maternity care, prescription drugs or pre-existing conditions.

President Trump has touted the plans as “much less expensive healthcare at a much lower price” and said they would provide coverage to millions of Americans who don’t require extensive coverage and don’t want to pay the higher premiums that come with ObamaCare.

“For many who’ve got pre-existing conditions or who have other health worries, the ObamaCare plans might be right for them,” Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar told “Fox & Friends.” “We’re just providing more options.”

---

Barrycare is horrible, but the fact that these guys haven't been able to come up with any improved ideas or solution controlling all 3 branches of government, and their best shot is basically trying to undermine it at every turn, is pathetic at this point.

It's unfortunate, because it pretty much guarantees that when Barrycare does blow up, we're getting fucked. (cue the america fucked and unfuckable rant)

Winehole23
12-14-2018, 07:23 PM
A local TV reporters investigated hospital billing for three years:


This is how one story (https://www.9news.com/article/news/investigations/medical-cost/mom-charged-more-than-1k-for-her-newborns-circumcision-theres-just-one-problem/73-532898670) began:





It’s hardly unusual for a hospital to charge a mother for the circumcision of a newborn, but when Sky Ridge Medical Center sent Lisa Powell-Dejong an invoice showing a $1216.50 charge for one, she found herself beyond dumbfounded.

“I just laughed,” she told us.

Why?

“Because I had a little girl,” she explained.





https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2018/a-local-tv-station-dedicated-three-years-to-investigating-hospital-bills/

Chris
12-14-2018, 08:34 PM
https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1073751376998555648

pgardn
12-14-2018, 08:49 PM
https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1073751376998555648

Oh good.

We get to see the biggest bestest plan ever.
But who knew Healthcare would be so complicated.

So Trump has covered the bases with incompetence.

Winehole23
12-14-2018, 10:20 PM
Great, how does DJT plan to control the cost of healthcare?

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 02:16 AM
It's 2018; did Obamacare make it better? Who says yes?

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 02:18 AM
related:

Trump agrees to let insurers sell cheaper health plans than ObamaCare

The Trump administration on Wednesday said it will allow insurers to sell short-term health care plans as a cheaper alternative to ObamaCare, but the policies will not cover maternity care, prescription drugs or pre-existing conditions.

President Trump has touted the plans as “much less expensive healthcare at a much lower price” and said they would provide coverage to millions of Americans who don’t require extensive coverage and don’t want to pay the higher premiums that come with ObamaCare.

“For many who’ve got pre-existing conditions or who have other health worries, the ObamaCare plans might be right for them,” Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar told “Fox & Friends.” “We’re just providing more options.”

---

Barrycare is horrible, but the fact that these guys haven't been able to come up with any improved ideas or solution controlling all 3 branches of government, and their best shot is basically trying to undermine it at every turn, is pathetic at this point.

It's unfortunate, because it pretty much guarantees that when Barrycare does blow up, we're getting fucked. (cue the america fucked and unfuckable rant)

So, the working class actually gets market options that suits their actual needs? Trump is obviously awful for this, amirite?

ElNono
12-15-2018, 02:32 AM
So, the working class actually gets market options that suits their actual needs? Trump is obviously awful for this, amirite?

That would make sense if he didn't specifically campaign touting that pre-exisiting condition coverage was not negotiable, or that he had a plan that was much better than Obamacare (but that he couldn't spell it out or get it through his own party controlled Congress).

Plus, read my comment about that article. Gutting the few things Barrycare did get right (so much so that he coopted them into his own healthcare campaign promises) it in order to put pressure to replace it did blow up in his face, now that he lost control of Congress.

Worst 4D chess ever.

Winehole23
12-15-2018, 02:36 AM
It's 2018; did Obamacare make it better? Who says yes?I'm a single payer guy, so I thought the ACA was a corporatist piece of crap from the get go. I still think it is. But it's undeniable that the ACA increased access to healthcare and caused a reduction in the rate of cost increases.

Short term, it controlled cost increases marginally and increased insurance coverage substantially. It made things a little better.

It's still a piece of crap and we should do better. Does the GOP have any ideas how?

I'm all ears.

boutons_deux
12-15-2018, 02:46 AM
"ACA was a corporatist piece of crap from the get go"

Because a BigInsurance Exec wrote ACA for Max Baucus

Health care is and will always be for-exorbitant-profit, because the profiteers own the legislators.

Health care is the prime example of how Capitalism fucks over non-Capitalists, is why America is on glide path to the hell of the Capitalist fascism.

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 02:47 AM
That would make sense if he didn't specifically campaign touting that pre-exisiting condition coverage was not negotiable, or that he had a plan that was much better than Obamacare (but that he couldn't spell it out or get it through his own party controlled Congress).

Plus, read my comment about that article. Gutting the few things Barrycare did get right (so much so that he coopted them into his own healthcare campaign promises) it in order to put pressure to replace it did blow up in his face, now that he lost control of Congress.

Worst 4D chess ever.

So people without pre-existing conditions can't get healthcare now?

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 02:49 AM
I'm a single payer guy, so I thought the ACA was a corporatist piece of crap from the get go. I still think it is. But it's undeniable that the ACA increased access to healthcare and caused a reduction in the rate of cost increases.

Short term, it controlled cost increases marginally and increased insurance coverage substantially. It made things a little better.

It's still a piece of crap and we should do better. Does the GOP have any ideas how?

I'm all ears.

Rates have went up; and access to crap has always been there. This just streamlined the process of draining the middle class.

ElNono
12-15-2018, 03:06 AM
So people without pre-existing conditions can't get healthcare now?

Who said that? I said he specifically campaigned touting pre-existing condition coverage was not negotiable. IOW: that plans wouldn't discriminate people with pre-existing conditions. But that's exactly what those plans on the article do.

For people with pre-existing conditions those plans are not only not an option, they increase the cost of their own plan. It really isn't about more choice, it's about torpedoing Barrycare, which I get it, it's one way t put pressure on Congress. It just made sense then when he had control of Congress, not so much now.

You won't hear a single politico on either party today talking about healthcare reform that doesn't include full support for people with pre-existing conditions. It's really because before barrycare, discrimination or penalties were rampant and abusive.

ElNono
12-15-2018, 03:07 AM
Rates have went up; and access to crap has always been there. This just streamlined the process of draining the middle class.

"rate of cost increases" means that the speed at which rates have gone up slowed down from what it was previously.

Rates have always gone up, no matter the system, to adjust for all sort of things (inflation, change in demographics, etc).

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 03:11 AM
Who said that? I said he specifically campaigned touting pre-existing condition coverage was not negotiable. IOW: that plans wouldn't discriminate people with pre-existing conditions. But that's exactly what those plans on the article do.

For people with pre-existing conditions those plans are not only not an option, they increase the cost of their own plan. It really isn't about more choice, it's about torpedoing Barrycare, which I get it, it's one way t put pressure on Congress. It just made sense then when he had control of Congress, not so much now.

You won't hear a single politico on either party today talking about healthcare reform that doesn't include full support for people with pre-existing conditions. It's really because before barrycare, discrimination or penalties were rampant and abusive.

Sounds like you're putting words into Trump's mouth. He promised people with pre-existing conditions could still get health care. That hasn't changed. But even if you think Trump 'lied', this is spotlighting the shortcoming of our system. Making me pay for someone else's medical expenses is not about efficiencies. We all pay for politics of fear.

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 03:13 AM
"rate of cost increases" means that the speed at which rates have gone up slowed down from what it was previously.

Rates have always gone up, no matter the system, to adjust for all sort of things (inflation, change in demographics, etc).

Rates skyrocketed with the advent of Obamacare; there's no need to put a smiley face on it.

ElNono
12-15-2018, 03:39 AM
Sounds like you're putting words into Trump's mouth. He promised people with pre-existing conditions could still get health care. That hasn't changed. But even if you think Trump 'lied', this is spotlighting the shortcoming of our system. Making me pay for someone else's medical expenses is not about efficiencies. We all pay for politics of fear.

“Republicans will always protect people with pre-existing conditions,” Trump said on Saturday in Nevada. “Republicans will always protect patients with pre-existing conditions,” Trump said in Arizona on Friday. "They're trying to put a false narrative out there — and if there is a Republican out there, him or her, let me know, and we'll talk him into it."

Of course this is a shortcoming of our system. Well, it was before ACA. One of the few right things the ACA did was not discriminate people with pre-existing conditions.

You *always* pay for somebody else's health and healthcare, as part of living in our society. Sometimes directly, like an employee insurance policy (which is a *group* insurance) or through your taxes which partially subsidize hospitals to treat uninsured people, Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, etc. Sometimes indirectly, if you're a business owner, sick employees without insurance can end up being very costly for the business. Curbing costs and efficiency in general are key. That's something the ACA didn't do, which is worse than doing it horribly.


Rates skyrocketed with the advent of Obamacare; there's no need to put a smiley face on it.

I was merely pointing out that you're talking about rates, whereas WH was talking about rate of cost increases. They're two completely different things. I didn't say you were wrong. He isn't wrong either.

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 03:54 AM
You *always* pay for somebody else's health and healthcare, as part of living in our society.


As part of legislative shakedowns.

ElNono
12-15-2018, 04:13 AM
As part of legislative shakedowns.

The business owner case has nothing to do with legislation, it's simply a smart business decision. If you actually think about it, that aspect also applies to employee-sponsored healthcare, you're just on the other end of the stick.

spurraider21
12-15-2018, 05:03 AM
If you actually think
bold assumption tbh

boutons_deux
12-15-2018, 08:34 AM
Donald J. Trump
(https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)✔@realDonaldTrump
(https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)
(https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)As I predicted all along,

Obamacare has been struck down as an UNCONSTITUTIONAL disaster!

Now Congress must pass a STRONG law that provides GREAT healthcare and protects pre-existing conditions.

Mitch and Nancy, get it done! :lol

(https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=1073761497866747904)8:07 PM - Dec 14, 2018 (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1073761497866747904)

... shows how out of touch and delirious y'all's sicko President is.

Repugs will block ANYTHING that has a whiff of progress, that does anything For The People.

If a miracle occurs, anything passed For The People will pass only if it provides 10x more wealth For The Oligarchy

Winehole23
12-15-2018, 11:07 AM
You won't hear a single politico on either party today talking about healthcare reform that doesn't include full support for people with pre-existing conditions. It's really because before barrycare, discrimination or penalties were rampant and abusive.Bingo.

Coverage for pre-existing conditions is popular across the political spectrum in large part because the pre-ACA system was so capricious and unfair.

Winehole23
12-15-2018, 11:11 AM
As part of legislative shakedowns.We also get shook down locally at the ER, when people without insurance or routine access to healthcare seek help for acute conditions.

The ER being the resource of first, last and only resort for so many people is an obvious inefficiency of the system.

Spurtacular
12-15-2018, 04:47 PM
We also get shook down locally at the ER, when people without insurance or routine access to healthcare seek help for acute conditions.

The ER being the resource of first, last and only resort for so many people is an obvious inefficiency of the system.

That wouldn't so much be the case if insurance IE "managed healthcare" wasn't the norm. Health insurance should be catastrophe insurance, not something you need to treat a broken arm (though it could be an option like any insurance).

pgardn
12-16-2018, 07:45 PM
That wouldn't so much be the case if insurance IE "managed healthcare" wasn't the norm. Health insurance should be catastrophe insurance, not something you need to treat a broken arm (though it could be an option like any insurance).

With the rise in rates what is catastrophic? Getting put under sedation is catastrophic for many families. Thus a broken arm that requires surgery IS catastrophic.

The Republicans saw a plan that had many bad points and some good ideas and came up with NOTHING.
Trump said they had a plan but they did NOT.
Go figure...

Spurtacular
12-16-2018, 08:28 PM
With the rise in rates what is catastrophic? Getting put under sedation is catastrophic for many families. Thus a broken arm that requires surgery IS catastrophic.

The Republicans saw a plan that had many bad points and some good ideas and came up with NOTHING.
Trump said they had a plan but they did NOT.
Go figure...

Financially catostrophic; I figured that went without saying.

pgardn
12-16-2018, 08:59 PM
Financially catostrophic; I figured that went without saying.

Well guess what?

That depends on your income.
Thus my example using your broken arm.
You realize costs continue to rise.

Spurtacular
12-17-2018, 02:32 AM
Well guess what?

That depends on your income.
Thus my example using your broken arm.
You realize costs continue to rise.

Thanks for that news flash that a big cost is a boon to anyone in the lower class.

Winehole23
12-17-2018, 01:47 PM
That wouldn't so much be the case if insurance IE "managed healthcare" wasn't the norm. Health insurance should be catastrophe insurance, not something you need to treat a broken arm (though it could be an option like any insurance).So there should be a different insurance mandate? A subsidy? Single payer catastrophic?

How would this work in your mind?

pgardn
12-17-2018, 03:44 PM
Thanks for that news flash that a big cost is a boon to anyone in the lower class.

Do you know what a boon means ya knucklehead?

Bottomline: By your definition Catastrophic is highly variable among citizens.
I cant believe you came onto this board trying to convince me you had some sort of skill in logic.

boutons_deux
12-17-2018, 03:47 PM
By your definition Catastrophic is highly variable.

For MOST Americans, a $3000 health bill would be CATASTROPHIC

Only 39% of Americans have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/few-americans-have-enough-savings-to-cover-a-1000-emergency.html

pgardn
12-17-2018, 03:50 PM
For MOST Americans, a $3000 health bill would be CATASTROPHIC

Only 39% of Americans have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/few-americans-have-enough-savings-to-cover-a-1000-emergency.html

Well Spurtaculated can cover that easily so fck those people.

Spurtacular
12-18-2018, 12:06 PM
So there should be a different insurance mandate? A subsidy? Single payer catastrophic?

How would this work in your mind?

When did I say there should be an insurance mandate, phony conservative?

boutons_deux
12-18-2018, 01:56 PM
Pre-existing conditions: Does any GOP proposal match the ACA?

Democrats charged their opponents with either nixing guaranteed coverage outright or putting those with pre-existing conditions at risk.

The claims might exaggerate, but they all have had a dose of truth.

Republican proposals are not as air tight as Obamacare.

the protections in the GOP plans are not as strong as Obamacare.

One independent analysis found that

the bill left over 6 million people exposed (https://www.kff.org/health-reform/press-release/analysis-6-3-million-people-with-pre-existing-conditions-would-be-at-risk-for-higher-premiums-under-the-houses-health-bill/) to much higher premiums for at least one year.

We’ll get to the congressional action next, but as things stand,

the latest official move by the administration has been to agree that the guarantees in the Affordable Care Act should go.

It said that in a Texas lawsuit tied to the individual mandate.

The individual mandate is the evil twin of guaranteed coverage.

In the 2017 tax cut law, Congress zeroed out the penalty for not having coverage. A few months later, a group of 20 states looked at that change and sued to overturn the entire law.

In particular, they argued that with a toothless mandate, the judge should terminate protections for pre-existing conditions.

So, if the mandate goes, so does guaranteed-issue.

Latest Republican plan has holes

there’s an out.

The bill adds an option for companies to deny certain coverage if "it will not have the capacity to deliver services adequately."

To Allison Hoffman, a law professor at the University of Pennsylvania, that’s a big loophole.

"Insurers could exclude someone’s preexisting conditions from coverage, even if they offered her a policy," Hoffman said.

"That fact alone sinks any claims that this law offers pre-existing condition protection."

The limit here is that insurers must apply such a rule across the board to every employer and individual plan.

They couldn’t cherry pick.

But the bill also gives companies broad leeway in setting premiums.

While they can’t set rates based on health status, there’s no limit on how much premiums could vary based on other factors.

"They could charge people in less healthy communities or occupations way more than others," Hoffman said.

"Just guaranteeing that everyone can get a policy has no meaning if the premiums are unaffordable for people more likely to need medical care."

"Insurers will use the rules available to them to take in more in premiums than they pay out in claims," Whitlock said.

"If you see a loophole and think insurers will use it, that’s probably true."

... etc.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/oct/17/pre-existing-conditions-does-any-gop-proposal-matc/

boutons_deux
12-18-2018, 02:57 PM
There’s no GOP backup plan for the anti-Obamacare lawsuit

What exactly is the GOP's health care plan?

The lawsuit aims to strike down very popular provisions (http://files.kff.org/attachment/Topline-Kaiser-Health-Tracking-Poll-November-2018) of the ACA, including but not limited to

protections for pre-existing conditions,

the Medicaid expansion,

the elimination of lifetime or annual limits (https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/benefit-limits/index.html) on most benefits,

allowing young adults to stay on their parents’ plans until the age of 26,

closing a coverage gap in Medicare prescription drug plans, and

even free flu shots.

The Trump administration said it has a backup plan (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/daily-on-healthcare-cmss-verma-says-there-is-a-backup-plan-if-anti-obamacare-lawsuit-prevails) :lol

should the anti-Obamacare lawsuit prevail in court,

but has yet to specify what exactly it is. :lol

Health officials told Politico (https://www.politico.com/politicopulse/)

the administration has no contingency plan should the ruling be held in appeal.

“We have a chance, working with the Democrats, to deliver great HealthCare!

A confirming Supreme Court Decision will lead to GREAT HealthCare results for Americans!” :lol

he tweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1074650975456124928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1074650975456124928&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fpol itics%2Ftrump-suggests-a-supreme-court-ruling-invalidating-the-affordable-care-act-would-lead-to-better-health-care%2F2018%2F12%2F17%2Fd133497e-01ec-11e9-9122-82e98f91ee6f_story.html) on Monday.

https://thinkprogress.org/no-republican-backup-plan-for-obamacare-lawsuit-f57d4fe398fd/

Winehole23
08-12-2019, 09:41 AM
This thread is one of the better threads I've reread lately.

BTW, another symptom health care costs are still out of control:

https://khn.org/news/to-save-money-american-patients-and-surgeons-meet-in-cancun/

boutons_deux
08-12-2019, 09:47 AM
This thread is one of the better threads I've reread lately.

BTW, another symptom health care costs are still out of control:

https://khn.org/news/to-save-money-american-patients-and-surgeons-meet-in-cancun/

Just another piece of FUCKING INSANITY in shithole America.

Just another example of the INSANITY resulting from inhumane, blood-sucking Capitalists obsession to amass INSANE Capital, without limit.

boutons_deux
08-12-2019, 12:00 PM
Elderly couple who died in apparent murder-suicide left note about unaffordable medical costs (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/10/1878149/-Elderly-couple-who-died-in-apparent-murder-suicide-left-note-about-unaffordable-medical-costs)

an apparent murder-suicide?

Judging by a note left behind (seemingly by the husband), it came down to medical costs.

Let that sink in: Unaffordable medical costs may have pushed an elderly couple to end their lives.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/10/1878149/-Elderly-couple-who-died-in-apparent-murder-suicide-left-note-about-unaffordable-medical-costs?detail=emaildkre (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/8/10/1878149/-Elderly-couple-who-died-in-apparent-murder-suicide-left-note-about-unaffordable-medical-costs?detail=emaildkre)

The barbarity of Capitalism.

rmt
08-12-2019, 05:17 PM
Just another piece of FUCKING INSANITY in shithole America.

Just another example of the INSANITY resulting from inhumane, blood-sucking Capitalists obsession to amass INSANE Capital, without limit.

Maybe you should calm down - all this ranting and raving can't be good for your blood pressure or health.