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Winehole23
09-06-2009, 10:59 AM
Major ruling against Ashcroft highlights evils of preventive detention (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/09/05/ashcroft/index.html)

Yesterday -- in a very significant decision (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/09/04/06-36059.pdf) (.pdf) written by Bush-43-appointed federal judge Milan Smith and joined by a Reagan-appointed judge -- the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals allowed a lawsuit to proceed that was brought against John Ashcroft for the illegal and unconstitutional detention of American Muslims. The suit was brought by Abdullah al-Kidd, an American citizen of African-American descent who converted to Islam. Al-Kidd was arrested, detained under abusive conditions, and then had his movements and freedoms severely restricted for sixteen months despite no evidence that he had done anything wrong.



The suit arises out of a policy established by Ashcroft of abusing the "material witness" statute, which authorizes the detention of key witnesses to a criminal case where it's likely they will be unavailable to testify in the absence of their pre-trial detention. Ashcroft used that statute as a pretext for arresting American Muslims where there was insufficient evidence to establish probable cause they had committed a crime (the standard required to justify their arrest). In other words, Ashcroft's DOJ would pretend that they wanted to detain Muslim citizens because they were "material witnesses" to a crime, when the real reason was that they suspected them of Terrorist connections and wanted to arrest and investigate them but lacked the evidence required by law to justify an arrest -- i.e., they wanted to "preventively detain" them in the absence of any criminal wrongdoing.


The real significance of this case is that it highlights the dangers and evils of preventive detention -- an issue that will be front and center when Obama shortly presents his proposal for a preventive detention scheme, something he first advocated in May (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/22/preventive_detention/). What Ashcroft is accused of doing illegally is exactly the same thing Obama wants the legal power to do (except that Obama's powers would presumably apply to foreign nationals, not citizens): namely, order people imprisoned as Terrorist suspects -- "preventively detained" -- where there is insufficient evidence to prove they committed any crime.



I really urge everyone to read the section of the court's decision which sets forth in a concise, clear and non-legalistic manner the facts of what was done to al-Kidd by the DOJ: it's just 3 pages long, beginning on page 12271 (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/09/04/06-36059.pdf) ("Facts and Procedural Background") through 12274 (the three pages after that, also highly recommended, detail Ashcroft's culpability in creating this nefarious, illegal detention scheme). Please just go read this 3-page section laying out the facts of what was done to al-Kidd's life and what preventive detention powers allow the Government to do. Anyone who supports Obama's call for a preventive detention scheme is, by definition, supporting things like this (though, if anything, what happened to al-Kidd -- as horrible as it is -- is short and innocuous compared to what a "prolonged detention" scheme would permit: years of indefinite, charge-free imprisonment).



The principal legal issue strictly resolved by the court here is somewhat narrow and legalistic. A political official has absolute immunity from lawsuits based on decisions made in a prosecutorial capacity (e.g., whether to indict or prosecute someone), but not for law enforcement decisions (e.g., whether to arrest or detain someone). You can't ever sue a prosecutor for deciding to prosecute you, but you can sue someone who arrests you if they acted illegally and in clear violation of your legal rights. The Ninth Circuit ruled that where, as here, there is credible evidence that the real reason an official ordered someone detained as a material witness (normally a prosecutorial act) was to arrest them, that is a law enforcement act, not a prosecutorial one, and he is therefore not entitled to absolute immunity from lawsuits if he violated the law when doing so. Hence, this lawsuit against Ashcroft personally -- alleging that he ordered Muslims detained in clear violation of their legal rights -- can proceed.



But, as the court obviously recognized, the real significance of this ruling goes far beyond that narrow immunity issue. There are few powers more anathema to our system of government than the power to imprison people in the absence of proof that they committed a crime. Yet when Obama advocated that Congress enact a preventive detention scheme, that is exactly the power he sought for himself. Here is the court's eloquent concluding section, manifestly applicable not only to the case before it but to the wider, imminent debate over preventive detention:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SqJrfyJ1umI/AAAAAAAACHI/CTEwTj4zO5c/s400/al-kidd1.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SqJrfyJ1umI/AAAAAAAACHI/CTEwTj4zO5c/s1600-h/al-kidd1.png) http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SqJrcOTXe3I/AAAAAAAACHA/ZLkYK3qOaPo/s400/al-kidd2.png (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SqJrcOTXe3I/AAAAAAAACHA/ZLkYK3qOaPo/s1600-h/al-kidd2.png) http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SqJrY2_KpqI/AAAAAAAACG4/CRtJKy2MS48/s400/al-kidd3.png (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SqJrY2_KpqI/AAAAAAAACG4/CRtJKy2MS48/s1600-h/al-kidd3.png)None of that changes because it is a non-citizen who is imprisoned without evidence of any crimes. Preventive detention is a noxious and dangerous power to vest in the Government. That's what Thomas Jefferson meant when -- in a 1789 letter to Thomas Paine -- he wrote (http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1520.htm): "I consider [trial by jury] as the only anchor ever yet imagined by man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution" (emphasis added). John Ashcroft's abuse of the material witness statute to "preventively detain" numerous American Muslims who had done nothing wrong was "repugnant," dangerous and tyrannical -- and that's exactly what any Congressional scheme would be that purports to vest the President with the legal power to "preventively detain" people in the absence of criminal charges.

boutons_deux
09-06-2009, 12:01 PM
Ashcroft, he of the aluminum tits drapery?

Not high enough. Go after his bosses.

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 12:16 PM
Maybe it were wiser to prevent this practice from becoming legal, as Obama will soon propose. There's needn't be any rush to prosecute the previous administration. Besides, this action is civil, not criminal.

boutons_deux
09-06-2009, 12:25 PM
Rush? these Repug crimes were already 4 - 5 years ago. Rush?

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 12:30 PM
The chances for prosecution of higher ups before last november were nil. Even now, they are very unlikely. For war crimes there is no statute of limitations, so like I said, there's no rush.

Nbadan
09-06-2009, 02:01 PM
Wonder if this has any connection to Ashcroft writting recently that the Bush adminisratation was manipulating the terror alert level for political purposes.

hope4dopes
09-06-2009, 02:56 PM
I think this a great idea and will set a wonderfull precident, but somehow I think politicains from both sides of the aisle might just shoot it down.

ChumpDumper
09-06-2009, 03:03 PM
Wonder if this has any connection to Ashcroft writting recently that the Bush adminisratation was manipulating the terror alert level for political purposes.You might be thinking of Tom Ridge.

hope4dopes
09-06-2009, 09:10 PM
At the very least it will divert attention away from the failures of the Obama administration, though I'd never be so cynical as to suggest this may in anyway be the motives behind it.

Shastafarian
09-06-2009, 09:16 PM
At the very least it will divert attention away from the failures of the Obama administration, though I'd never be so cynical as to suggest this may in anyway be the motives behind it.

Conservative judges want to draw attention away from the failures of the Obama administration?

hope4dopes
09-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Conservative judges want to draw attention away from the failures of the Obama administration? I believe the 9th circut court has the highest rate of overturned cases of any appeals court in America...go figure.

George Gervin's Afro
09-06-2009, 10:45 PM
Conservative judges want to draw attention away from the failures of the Obama administration?

Of course..:rolleyes. Doesn't it make sense?

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:17 PM
At the very least it will divert attention away from the failures of the Obama administration, though I'd never be so cynical as to suggest this may in anyway be the motives behind it.On the contrary, it draws attention to Obama's outrageous aim to provide a legal basis for arbitrary detention.

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:18 PM
Novelty hardens into custom.

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:20 PM
Bush pioneered the style of brazenness required to sustain imperial discretion, while Obama now seeks to provide the legal architecture for administrative detention and a host of other shady executive powers.

In the UK they put up with this.

I wonder how it will go over here?

hope4dopes
09-06-2009, 11:35 PM
Bush pioneered the style of brazenness required to sustain imperial discretion, while Obama now seeks to provide the legal architecture for administrative detention and a host of other shady executive powers.

In the UK they put up with this.

I wonder how it will go over here?

why should it bother the british, Long kesh prison and H block made gitmo look like a palace, hell gitmo looks like a palace compared to what alot of the american working class live with.

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:44 PM
Bullshit, micca.

hope4dopes
09-06-2009, 11:46 PM
Bullshit, micca.

What is

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:51 PM
That Gitmo is a palace compared to American jails. I understand our jails are tough, but the comparison is untenable. Inmates in jail have access to their lawyers and the courts.

And equating the conditions of confinement with Gitmo is just dishonest or deluded.

hope4dopes
09-06-2009, 11:55 PM
That Gitmo is a palace compared to American jails. I understand our jails are tough, but the comparison is untenable. Inmates in jail have access to their lawyers and the courts.

And equating the conditions of confinement with Gitmo is just dishonest or deluded.
extending to the filth in gitmo the social contract of citizens is dishonest and deluded.

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:55 PM
In an episodic way, LE may inflict brutality on inmates, but at Gitmo abusive treatment was, and maybe still is, policy.

Winehole23
09-06-2009, 11:57 PM
extending to the filth in gitmo the social contract of citizens is dishonest and deluded.Tough luck. The government abused its discretion, not to mention a lot of innocent people, so the courts are reining it in.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:00 AM
The USG's losing streak in court is impressive.

The government has lost, like, 29 of 36 cases. They are not able to present any credible basis for detaining in the great majority of cases that have reached the light of day.

hope4dopes
09-07-2009, 12:03 AM
Tough luck. The government abused its discretion, not to mention a lot of innocent people, so the courts are reining it in. The courts now and for quite sometime have been nothing more than political footballs, that is why they are held in such universal contempt.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:06 AM
Your losing streak continues as well. If you don't believe in tripartite government and coequal branches, you're not really a Constitutionalist.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:08 AM
Nice appeal to authority, btw.

If the masses want it otherwise, they can try to amend the Constitution.

hope4dopes
09-07-2009, 12:10 AM
Your losing streak continues as well. If you don't believe in tripartite government and coequal branches, you're not really a Constitutionalist.
blah, blah, blah..bullshit. The corruption of the state,and it's hunger for power is what people are questioning not it's structure.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:12 AM
The SC gets to say what the law is. Nothing is more settled than that, really.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:13 AM
Habeas and Common Article 3 of Geneva apply.

hope4dopes
09-07-2009, 12:15 AM
[QUOTE=Winehole23;3672394]The SC gets to say what the law is. Nothing is more settled than that, really.[/QUOTE Man you love authority... the people decide.The future is unwritten.
It's not like a president hasn't packed the supreme court before to promote his own agenda.

hope4dopes
09-07-2009, 12:18 AM
Habeas and Common Article 3 of Geneva apply. I'm sure in another lifetime, if things had just worked out better You'd had enjoyed being a constitutional lawyer but to quote dirty harry a man's got to know his limitations.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:23 AM
Of course you sympathize with the violent enforcer who holds himself apart from the rules. America loves violence and revenge. That's why Dirty Harry is so popular.

What I do suits me fine, BTW. I have no desire to be a constitutional lawyer, nor any shame of my passing familiarity with the lawless policy of our government in the area under discussion here, or the legal repercussions.

Is it wrongheaded somehow to keep abreast of the abuses of essential and foundational liberties?

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:24 AM
We are not just talking about guys from Gitmo, but American citizens, like in the OP.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:30 AM
You're the one who worships the raw power of the state, micca. Your resentment of judicial equality proves it.

As well as your full-throated endorsement of lawless executive practices like torture and arbitrary detntion.

hope4dopes
09-07-2009, 12:30 AM
Of course you sympathize with the violent enforcer who holds himself apart from the rules.

What I do suits me fine, BTW. I have no desire to be a constitutional lawyer, nor any shame of my passing familiarity with the lawless policy of our government in the area under discussion here.

Is it wrongheaded somehow to keep abreast of the abuses of essential and foundational liberties?


No it's wrongheaded to keep counting how many angles can dance on the head of a pin, while rome burns.You can squat on your haunches and unravel gordians knot if it amuses you,but don't ask it to be taken for anything more than amusement.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:34 AM
No it's wrongheaded to keep counting how many angles can dance on the head of a pin, while rome burns.You can squat on your haunches and unravel gordians knot if it amuses you,but don't ask it to be taken for anything more than amusement.This is a current events forum. What the hell are you talking about?

Instead of discussing the topics, you hoist up your own ignorance as a shield. Pathetic. your substantive replies in the thread are just about zero. All you do is change the subject.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 12:40 AM
And be snide to posters.

mogrovejo
09-07-2009, 01:02 AM
Bush pioneered the style of brazenness required to sustain imperial discretion, while Obama now seeks to provide the legal architecture for administrative detention and a host of other shady executive powers.

In the UK they put up with this.

I wonder how it will go over here?

Your only hope is the SC. Politically, nobody will give a crap about this. The Dems because it's Obama motorized legislation, the Reps because it's "national security".

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 02:02 AM
Your only hope is the SC. Politically, nobody will give a crap about this. The Dems because it's Obama motorized legislation, the Reps because it's "national security".Yes, basically. I can think of maybe one other person in this forum who seems to give a crap.

George Gervin's Afro
09-07-2009, 08:45 AM
blah, blah, blah..bullshit. The corruption of the state,and it's hunger for power is what people are questioning not it's structure.

"Democratic corruption and hunger for power"..

hope4dopes
09-07-2009, 11:27 AM
This is a current events forum. What the hell are you talking about?

Instead of discussing the topics, you hoist up your own ignorance as a shield. Pathetic. your substantive replies in the thread are just about zero. All you do is change the subject.

All you do is cherry pick the net, with psuedo intellectual elitist hogwash and then prance about saying "what a clever boy am I".

Yonivore
09-07-2009, 01:30 PM
"Democratic corruption and hunger for power"..
Well, it certainly seems to know no bounds.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 01:46 PM
All you do is cherry pick the net, with psuedo intellectual elitist hogwash and then prance about saying "what a clever boy am I".What you call pseudo-intellectual hogwash I would call rudimentary knowledge. I guess your unfamiliarity with the basics makes you contemptuous of them. Anything that has failed to penetrate your consciousness is elitist. And contemptible.

What I find striking is how easily earned your populist bona fides is. It is based on the very ignorance you are quick to ascribe to everyone else too. Pitiful.

Your losing streak proceeds unbroken, micca. It must be tiresome getting pantsed continually in this forum. But maybe I give you too much credit. You are probably oblivious to it. You probably think you're winning.

Winehole23
09-07-2009, 08:40 PM
Orin Kerr in Volokh (http://www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2009_09_06-2009_09_12.shtml#1252123900).

LnGrrrR
09-08-2009, 08:51 AM
Yes, basically. I can think of maybe one other person in this forum who seems to give a crap.

I would hope you're referring to myself. Though I think Marcus might care as well.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 09:37 AM
I would hope you're referring to myself. Though I think Marcus might care as well.I was. Others may care, but they seldom bother to speak up about it.

Marcus can speak for himself, but he is against pretty much anything that strengthens the state against free citizens. I would guess he's against making the President jailer- and interrogator-in-chief.

ElNono
09-08-2009, 10:18 AM
Count me in as one who cares. I've had my share of arguments about this topic.
It's actually very disappointing that I was right when I said they had no evidence at all to detain a bunch of those peeps. I wanted to be wrong and believe they did things right. Silly me.

boutons_deux
09-08-2009, 10:32 AM
The overreaction of the Repugs, the dickhead Exec branch, from 9/12 on was based on the Repugs KNOWING they were guilty of being caught with their NatSec pants down, while they were supposed to be the party strong on national defense.

They KNEW if it happened again, they wouldn't be able to lie their way out of it, nor count on the benefit of the doubt by Americans, nor hermetically seal up their negligence for "national security" reasons, as they did for their still-secret/unknown anti-terror actions 1/20 - 9/11, which the Van Jones petition simply asked to be unsealed.

The Repugs knew that if the Van Jones petition's target was achieved, the Repugs would be shit for decades.

They violated the US Constitution and the Geneva Conventions to cover they sorry, incompetent, venal, BigOil-y asses.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 10:36 AM
Arbitrary detention is not an epiphenomenon of Van Jones's petition drive. There's an existing thread on Jones. ^^^ post belongs there IMO.

LnGrrrR
09-08-2009, 11:00 AM
Maybe one day people will realize we imprisoned a lot of people who were innocent, and then further, recognize why that's a bad thing. I'm not holding my breath, though. After all, they're suspected terorrists, and they weren't American citizens in most cases. Why should we bother with their rights?

Winehole23
06-19-2015, 12:57 AM
In Turkmen v. Ashcroft, 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals holds that wrongfully detained people can sue government officials:


A top federal court on Wednesday ruled that people held for months on end for immigration violations following Sept. 11, 2001, can sue top government officials for racial profiling and other abuses.


The split decision from a three-judge panel on the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals comes after more than a decade of litigation and could lead to increased scrutiny of the government’s behavior following the 2001 terror attack.


“We simply cannot conclude at this stage that concern for the safety of our nation justified the violation of the constitutional rights on which this nation was built,” Judges Rosemary Pooler and Richard Wesley wrote in their 109-page decision (http://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/06/Turkmen%20v.%20Ashcroft%20Second%20Circuit%20Rulin g%206-17-15.pdf).

“The question at this stage of the litigation is whether the [eight foreigners arrested on immigration charges] have plausibly pleaded that the [government officials] exceeded the bounds of the Constitution in the wake of 9/11,” they wrote. “We believe that they have.”


After being arrested for immigration charges, such as overstaying a visa or working without legal authorization after 9/11, the men were held for between three to eight months in New York or New Jersey. The men, who are all Arab or South Asian, were detained for being “suspected terrorists” and claim that they were abused by prison guards and subjected to extended solitary confinement.


In 2002, they filed a class-action lawsuit against then-Attorney General John Ashcroft, then-FBI Director Robert Mueller, and other federal and local law enforcement officials.
Wednesday’s decision allows that lawsuit to go forward.


“The Constitution defines the limits of the Defendants’ authority,” the two judges wrote, “detaining individuals as if they were terrorists, in the most restrictive conditions of confinement available, simply because these individuals were, or appeared to be, Arab or Muslim exceeds those limits.”

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/245348-court-rules-bush-officials-can-be-sued-for-post-9-11-detentions