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Sportstudi
09-07-2009, 08:25 PM
First of all, I know that this article is a bit older (written on July 24th). After recognizing this one today I was digging in the forum's archives, but I coudn't find a thread concerning this topic. The only one I found (same author by the way) was that one (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132459) about the coaches of the last decade. If there is already a thread about this particular article, I'm sorry and the mods can close it. Otherwise, here it is:


All-Decade Teams: The 2000s (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=2997)


Posted by Justin Kubatko on July 24, 2009

Since we're nearing the end of another decade, I thought it would be interesting to come up with All-Decade teams for the 2000s. I know that technically the decade is not over yet, but the NBA has a split season, and since we've already crowned the 2009 NBA champions it seems to me that the 2008-09 season is a good breaking point.

Rather than choose the teams arbitrarily, I wanted to come up with a method to select the teams. I decided to use a weighting scheme similar to what Doug Drinen of PFR uses. Here's Doug's description of the method:

My opinion is that most people mentally rank players by counting all the players’ seasons, but weighting their best seasons more. In order to mimic that, I’ve defined each player’s approximate career “value” to be:

100% of his best season, plus 95% of his 2nd-best season, plus 90% of his 3rd-best season, plus, ….

So, for two players with the same career [value], the one with the higher peak will be rated a little higher. And junk seasons at the end of a player’s career count for almost nothing.

In order to find each player's "value" for a particular season, I decided to add his regular season Win Shares to his post-season Win Shares. I also tweaked Doug's weights slightly. Since we're dealing with a period of 10 years rather than entire careers, a player's best season gets a weight of 1, his second-best season gets a weight of 0.9, his third-best season gets a weight of 0.8, etc. This will help to prevent players who may have missed a season due to injury or were drafted later in the decade from being penalized too harshly. I also decided to mimic the All-NBA voters and not make fine distinctions at each position, so a particular team might have two power forwards rather than one small forward and one power forward.

OK, that's enough background. Here we go with the first team...
All-Decade First Team
G Kobe Bryant 88.2
G Chauncey Billups 76.1
F Dirk Nowitzki 95.4
F Tim Duncan 91.5
C Shaquille O'Neal 86.1

I have a good feeling what the two most common reactions to these results are going to be, so let me tackle them now:

Reaction #1: How can you have Chauncey Billups over Steve Nash?

Here is a comparison of their per game statistics for the decade:
Player G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
Billups 712 32.5 4.7 11.2 1.7 4.4 4.4 4.9 0.5 2.6 3.1 5.9 1.0 0.2 2.0 2.1 15.6 .422 .396 .891
Nash 753 33.7 5.8 11.8 1.6 3.7 2.9 3.2 0.6 2.6 3.2 9.1 0.8 0.1 3.0 1.7 16.2 .494 .436 .905

Aside from the big advantage Nash has in assists, their per game statistics are quite similar. However, when you consider that Nash's teams never finished lower than 7th in pace factor, while Billups's teams were usually near the bottom of the league in pace, most of Billups's per game numbers are actually better than Nash's.

There's also the matter of playoff performance. Billups was on seven straight teams that reached the conference finals, a remarkable achievement. What happens if we remove playoff performance from the equation? Nash comes out ahead by the slimmest of margins, 62.0 to 61.9. However, it did not seem right to me to exclude playoff performances because (a) they do matter and (b) it would be silly to tweak the method just to reach a pre-determined result.

Reaction #2: How can you have Dirk Nowitzki over Kevin Garnett?

In my opinion, Nowitzki, although thought of highly by most people, still manages to be underrated. Consider:

* Nowitzki earned a decade-best 137.6 Win Shares during the regular season.
* Nowitzki finished fifth in the decade with 17.4 playoff Win Shares, but while Nowitzki played in only 97 playoff games, no one above him played him in fewer than 133 games.
* Nowitzki is an almost perfect blend of productivity and efficiency. Among players with at least 400 games played during the decade, he had the 15th-highest usage percentage, the 8th-lowest turnover percentage, and the 6th-highest offensive rating.
* The Mavericks have won 50 or more games nine consecutive seasons, including seasons of 60 and 67 wins after losing two-time MVP Steve Nash. The one constant during this streak? Nowitzki.

None of this is meant to slight Garnett, who I think is a great player. I just think — and this system happens to agree — that Nowitzki was a little bit greater.

Moving on to the second team...
All-Decade Second Team
G Steve Nash 70.0
G Ray Allen 66.3
F Kevin Garnett 86.8
F LeBron James 76.9
C Ben Wallace 60.8

The only surprise here might be Ray Allen, but he was named to the All-Star team nine times during the decade and he was/is a phenomenally efficient scorer, not to mention that he has also been a clutch playoff performer.

Finally, the third team...
All-Decade Third Team
G Tracy McGrady 63.4
G Jason Kidd 59.9
F Shawn Marion 72.4
F Paul Pierce 69.1
C Amare Stoudemire 54.1

Again, no big surprises, although I had to make a bit of a judgment call at center. Pau Gasol finished ahead of Stoudemire, but I think most people view Gasol as a power forward, not a center. Since Stoudemire was named to three All-NBA teams at center, I decided to go with him. Actually, Stoudemire ended up being the lowest-ranked player to make the team. Here are the players who finished ahead of Stoudemire in the rankings but were squeezed out due to positional quotas:

+------+---------------------+-------+--------+
| Rank | Player | Years | Rating |
+------+---------------------+-------+--------+
| 14 | Elton Brand | 10 | 60.7 |
| 16 | Vince Carter | 10 | 58.5 |
| 17 | Peja Stojakovic | 10 | 58.2 |
| 18 | Pau Gasol | 8 | 58.2 |
| 19 | Allen Iverson | 10 | 57.5 |
| 20 | Dwyane Wade | 6 | 54.6 |
| 21 | Manu Ginobili | 7 | 54.3 |
+------+---------------------+-------+--------+

Some people might be surprised that Dwyane Wade does not rank higher, but keep in mind that Wade only played six seasons, and in two different seasons Wade missed 31 games due to injury.

Just to recap, once again here are the All-Decade teams for the 2000s:
First Team Second Team Third Team
G Kobe Bryant 88.2 Steve Nash 70.0 Tracy McGrady 63.4
G Chauncey Billups 76.1 Ray Allen 66.3 Jason Kidd 59.9
F Dirk Nowitzki 95.4 Kevin Garnett 86.8 Shawn Marion 72.4
F Tim Duncan 91.5 LeBron James 76.9 Paul Pierce 69.1
C Shaquille O'Neal 86.1 Ben Wallace 60.8 Amare Stoudemire 54.1

In the coming weeks I'll try to do the same thing for the 1990s and 1980s. Stay tuned...


-----


Well, I personally that's a quite interesting article and of course debatable. Due to the fact of being in a Spurs-Forum I wouldn't be surprised to see some heavy Dirk bashing soon... but I'm also interested in serious discussion without blatant homerism.

benefactor
09-07-2009, 08:32 PM
lol Billups and Nash over Jason Kidd.

baseline bum
09-07-2009, 08:39 PM
G Chris Paul
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Tim Duncan
C Shaquille O'Neal

benefactor
09-07-2009, 08:40 PM
Due to the fact of being in a Spurs-Forum I wouldn't be surprised to see some heavy Dirk bashing soon
Nah...it's the right choice. KG only managed to get out of the first round once in his first 12 years as a pro player.

benefactor
09-07-2009, 08:42 PM
G Chris Paul
G Kobe Bryant
F LeBron James
F Tim Duncan
C Shaquille O'Neal
I like you BB....but let's be serious.

IronMexican
09-07-2009, 08:42 PM
Kidd
Kobe
James
Duncan
Shaq

monosylab1k
09-07-2009, 09:10 PM
I like Dirk being 1st team, but forcing him on there as a SF is kinda dumb. Just put him as 2nd team PF and push Garnett to 3rd team.

KSeal
09-07-2009, 09:15 PM
Kidd
Kobe
Pierce
Timmy
Shaq

Sportstudi
09-07-2009, 09:25 PM
I like Dirk being 1st team, but forcing him on there as a SF is kinda dumb. Just put him as 2nd team PF and push Garnett to 3rd team.

The author wrote:

"I also decided to mimic the All-NBA voters and not make fine distinctions at each position, so a particular team might have two power forwards rather than one small forward and one power forward."

baseline bum
09-07-2009, 09:45 PM
I like you BB....but let's be serious.

I'd take Paul over Kidd in a second. And Paul over Nash is a complete no-brainer.

23LeBronJames23
09-07-2009, 10:56 PM
Kidd
Kobe
James
Duncan
Shaq

DAF86
09-07-2009, 11:24 PM
Lol when I read that this guy was a Mavericks fan I knew that Nowitzki was going to make the team. Mavs fans are predictable.

PG-Kidd
SG-Bryant
SF-James
PF-Duncan
SF-O'neal

You could also make a case for Garnett instead of Lebron and Wade instead of Kidd.

DAF86
09-07-2009, 11:26 PM
I'd take Paul over Kidd in a second. And Paul over Nash is a complete no-brainer.

I'd also take Paul over Kidd and Nash right now, but he has had a short career in the NBA. You can't put him in an "All-decade" team yet.

baseline bum
09-08-2009, 12:39 AM
I'd also take Paul over Kidd and Nash right now, but he has had a short career in the NBA. You can't put him in an "All-decade" team yet.

All-decade to me means the best player at the position at a reasonably long interval of time in the decade, not the best player over the entire span. I'd take Paul now over both Nash and Kidd in their primes... in a second.

eisfeld
09-08-2009, 12:44 AM
God, how I hate those teams. It's the same with the all-star teams where players are forced in different positions than they really play. Trying to fit Dirk as SF just for the sake of him being on the team is wrong.

dirk4mvp
09-08-2009, 01:05 AM
Lol when I read that this guy was a Mavericks fan I knew that Nowitzki was going to make the team. Mavs fans are predictable.

PG-Kidd
SG-Bryant
SF-James
PF-Duncan
SF-O'neal

You could also make a case for Garnett instead of Lebron and Wade instead of Kidd.

I'm sure if you wrote this article, you'd find a way to put Manu on the team cu he won some minor league titles.


:lmao Oberto the best passing big man.

23LeBronJames23
09-08-2009, 01:29 AM
God, how I hate those teams. It's the same with the all-star teams where players are forced in different positions than they really play. Trying to fit Dirk as SF just for the sake of him being on the team is wrong.
+1

a 7 Foot SF?

never seen that before!

DUNCANownsKOBE2
09-08-2009, 01:35 AM
I like the Billups pick, but Kidd is the PG of the decade.

eisfeld
09-08-2009, 06:20 AM
+1

a 7 Foot SF?

never seen that before!

That's the problem with all the players playing interchangeable positions. Teams list them just as Guards, Forwards or Centers and do not specify the position they really play. If by miracle a SF would join the league who would surpass LeBron on this position he would still be a starter in the Allstar Game at the second Forward spot.

This procedure prohibits that players like Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Wade and other superstars are left out of the ASG and All NBA teams.

kobyz
09-08-2009, 06:39 AM
first team:
G Chauncey Billups
G Kobe Bryant
F Kevin Garnett
F Tim Duncan
C Shaquille O'Neal

Second Team:
G Jason Kidd
G Dwyane Wade
F LeBron James
F Dirk Nowitzki
C Amare Stoudemire

third team:
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol
Ben Wallace

fourth team:
Tony Parker
Manu Ginóbili
Carmelo Anthony
Rasheed Wallace
Dwight Howard

fifth team:
Chris Paul
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
Jermaine O'Neal
Yao Ming

Sportstudi
09-08-2009, 06:43 AM
Lol when I read that this guy was a Mavericks fan I knew that Nowitzki was going to make the team. Mavs fans are predictable.

PG-Kidd
SG-Bryant
SF-James
PF-Duncan
SF-O'neal

You could also make a case for Garnett instead of Lebron and Wade instead of Kidd.

Sorry, but either you are not able to read carefully or you didn't even read the whole article. I just found the article on basketball-reference and put it here. Can you tell me where I stated that I put Nowitzki in there??? Can you tell me where the author stated that he's a Mavericks-fan? Probably you just saw my favourite team and thought "well, typical choice of a Mavs-fan, let's bash him". That's nothing but stupid. Try to read it more carefully before writing crap again. Thanks.

Additionally, the author stated this: "I also decided to mimic the All-NBA voters and not make fine distinctions at each position, so a particular team might have two power forwards rather than one small forward and one power forward." That is why you can have two PF's in one team instead of one PF and one SF.

TDMVPDPOY
09-08-2009, 06:45 AM
i take billups over kidd also, dude is fkn overrated....i dont give a shit if you post triple doubles if you dont get the win...

Sportstudi
09-08-2009, 06:52 AM
God, how I hate those teams. It's the same with the all-star teams where players are forced in different positions than they really play. Trying to fit Dirk as SF just for the sake of him being on the team is wrong.

Same for you what I tried to explain to Mono as well as to DAF86. The guy who wrote that article (and it wasn't me) already explained that he decided to pick for instance two PF's instead of the the normal allocation of PF and SF.

Seriously, it seems that some people here are thinking that I'm the author and I put Dirk there only because he's a Mav. Sorry, but that's bullshit. I just put that article here, because I didn't find it on the board.

DAF86
09-08-2009, 09:15 AM
Sorry, but either you are not able to read carefully or you didn't even read the whole article. I just found the article on basketball-reference and put it here. Can you tell me where I stated that I put Nowitzki in there??? Can you tell me where the author stated that he's a Mavericks-fan? Probably you just saw my favourite team and thought "well, typical choice of a Mavs-fan, let's bash him". That's nothing but stupid. Try to read it more carefully before writing crap again. Thanks.

Additionally, the author stated this: "I also decided to mimic the All-NBA voters and not make fine distinctions at each position, so a particular team might have two power forwards rather than one small forward and one power forward." That is why you can have two PF's in one team instead of one PF and one SF.

Yeah I didn't read the whole thing, my apologies to you.

Now the guy that wrote that article is either a Mavs fan, German or stupid, no way Nowitzki makes the All-NBA team of the 2000 decade.

DAF86
09-08-2009, 09:15 AM
I'm sure if you wrote this article, you'd find a way to put Manu on the team cu he won some minor league titles.


:lmao Oberto the best passing big man.

lol Mavs

JamStone
09-08-2009, 11:11 AM
As much as he's fallen from grace and as big of a jerk he's proven to be, one could still argue that Iverson should be on that first team. This guy keeps him off of the top three teams? Come on now. Even as a fan, I realized how much of a selfish player he is. But can you really say he hasn't been one of the six best guards over the past decade? I find that hard to argue.

DAF86
09-08-2009, 11:45 AM
As much as he's fallen from grace and as big of a jerk he's proven to be, one could still argue that Iverson should be on that first team. This guy keeps him off of the top three teams? Come on now. Even as a fan, I realized how much of a selfish player he is. But can you really say he hasn't been one of the six best guards over the past decade? I find that hard to argue.

Huuuge AI fan here. But I wouldn't put him on any "best of something team". He has great stats, amazing talent, is a lot of fun to watch and plays balls out everygame. But he is too uneffective to be considered for the All-decade team.

There's probably nobody (with the exception maybe of Manu) I'd rather watch play instead of Iverson. But if I'd have to pick players to make a winning team I wouldn't pick him.

Leetonidas
09-08-2009, 11:58 AM
How can Nash not be first team? He has back-to-back MVPs this decade.

Sportstudi
09-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Yeah I didn't read the whole thing, my apologies to you.



Accepted :toast

Culburn369
09-08-2009, 01:09 PM
How can Nash not be first team? He has back-to-back MVPs this decade.

That (MVP) is a political process...thus carries a scent of taint to it.

His chronic inability to lead a team to an NBA title stains him tremendously.

DUNCANownsKOBE2
09-08-2009, 01:18 PM
His chronic inability to lead a team to an NBA title stains him tremendously.


We also need to remember this is the all decade team, not the all 2005-2007 team.

Galileo
09-08-2009, 01:50 PM
This was an excellent way to pick the all-decade team, with a couple exceptions.

One, they should have given bonus points for playoffs.

Two, the number of all-star selections, all-NBA selections, MVPs, etc., should have been factered in as well.

The Franchise
09-08-2009, 04:49 PM
This is insanity. Billups over Nash? McGrady over Vince(this one is absolutely laughable)? Nowitzki over Garnett?

McGrady at his peak is easily better than Carter at his to say he isn't is not only laughable but illogical.

resistanze
09-08-2009, 07:43 PM
As much as he's fallen from grace and as big of a jerk he's proven to be, one could still argue that Iverson should be on that first team. This guy keeps him off of the top three teams? Come on now. Even as a fan, I realized how much of a selfish player he is. But can you really say he hasn't been one of the six best guards over the past decade? I find that hard to argue.

Agreed - AI is at least on par with Ray Allen this decade.

dirk4mvp
09-09-2009, 12:47 AM
McGrady was arguably the best player in the league for a few years, has Carter ever even been considered a top 10 player at any point in his career?

DAF86
09-09-2009, 09:03 AM
McGrady was arguably the best player in the league for a few years, has Carter ever even been considered a top 10 player at any point in his career?

Making a lot of points on a crappy team doesn't make you the best player on the league. McGrady's case is worst than Iverson's 'cause at least AI plays hard, T-Mac is a pussy.

Culburn369
09-09-2009, 09:15 AM
'cause at least AI plays hard

But, only when he's in the mood, DAF.

jacobdrj
09-09-2009, 10:32 AM
Kidd Prime (earlier this decade) >>> Paul Now

picc84
09-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Kidd Prime (earlier this decade) >>> Paul Now

Jason Kidd in his prime may have been better than CP is now, but he was in no way that far ahead.

Cry Havoc
09-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Um, no. And it's not even close. Talk to me when Tracy McGrady gets out of the first round. In fact, the minute he gets injured, they magically make it out of the first round. Surprise, surprise.

Vince has not only been way farther in the playoffs, but he has never, ever had someone the caliber of Yao Ming on his team.


Making a lot of points on a crappy team doesn't make you the best player on the league. McGrady's case is worst than Iverson's 'cause at least AI plays hard, T-Mac is a pussy.

You guys need to actually go back and look at what T-Mac was doing in the early part of this decade. He did a hell of a lot more than just score points.

His stats:

2000-2001: 26.8 points, 7.5 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.5 blocks per game. On 45.7% shooting and 35% from downtown.

Those are better numbers than Kobe Bryant put up this past year.

And he gets even better.

2001-2002: 25.6 points, 7.9 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 1.6 steals, 1.0 blocks per game, on 45% shooting and 36% from 3.

And then we have the 2002 season.

32 points.
6.5 rebounds.
5.5 assists.
1.6 steals.
And nearly a block per game.
on 45.7% shooting.
and nearly 39% from three point range.

Sounds like he was playing pretty damn hard to me. That or he's the most talented player in NBA history and was doing this at 60% :lol
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a season of better numbers than anyone outside LeBron James has ever managed to produce in quite some time (you could say Kobe has had perhaps seasons of close to or equal these stats, but they aren't clearly better).

You could definitely say Kobe has had more seasons of high production, but T-Mac at his peak was CLEARLY either the 1st or 2nd best guard in the league. For about 5 years, his production was clearly at the very top of the NBA.

dirk4mvp
09-09-2009, 12:16 PM
Making a lot of points on a crappy team doesn't make you the best player on the league. McGrady's case is worst than Iverson's 'cause at least AI plays hard, T-Mac is a pussy.

You're an idiot.

DAF86
09-09-2009, 01:19 PM
You're an idiot.

But at least I'm not a Mavs fan.

dirk4mvp
09-09-2009, 01:57 PM
lol shithole country

Your spur "fan" days are numbered too. About a year or 2 left until Manu's rotten ankles fall off and your bandwagoning ass finds another team.

DAF86
09-09-2009, 02:13 PM
lol shithole country

Your spur "fan" days are numbered too. About a year or 2 left until Manu's rotten ankles fall off and your bandwagoning ass finds another team.

I was a Spurs fan long before Manu got to SA and I'll remain one after he leaves.

And there's no better place to live than where I live: beatiful women, great food, great weather, beach, I can shower as many times a day as I want 'cause we don't have water shortage problems.
There must really be few places better to live than in my city and Dallas sure isn't one of them.

Cry Havoc
09-09-2009, 02:13 PM
lol shithole country

Your spur "fan" days are numbered too. About a year or 2 left until Manu's rotten ankles fall off and your bandwagoning ass finds another team.

I'm a Cubs fan too. Just FYI.

dirk4mvp
09-09-2009, 03:07 PM
I was a Spurs fan long before Manu got to SA and I'll remain one after he leaves.


Sure you were.

Culburn369
09-10-2009, 06:23 AM
[The minute McGrady is hurt, they get out of the first round.]

Ruh, roh, here is that [Houston is better without McGrady Principle] again, only purported by a Spurs fellow. Any Houston fandoms care to agree? I'll be watching!

polysylab1k
09-10-2009, 08:56 AM
But at least I'm not a Mavs fan.
I'm not a Mavs fan either. Sincerely I'm a fan of Thunder team and I have been a Thunder fan since as early as the accomplishment of that team, which is some truth you definitely know if you were registered earlier than when someone changed my team.

DUNCANownsKOBE2
09-10-2009, 10:37 AM
I was a Spurs fan long before Manu got to SA

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Yeah and I was a fan of the Slovenian National team before Goran Dragic was on it.

DUNCANownsKOBE2
09-10-2009, 10:40 AM
Making a lot of points on a crappy team doesn't make you the best player on the league. McGrady's case is worst than Iverson's 'cause at least AI plays hard, T-Mac is a pussy.


I'm guessing Trajon Langdon > T-Mac???

DAF86
09-10-2009, 10:44 AM
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Yeah and I was a fan of the Slovenian National team before Goran Dragic was on it.

I've explained this before if you want you can do some research. If you don't, I don't give a fuck.

DUNCANownsKOBE2
09-10-2009, 10:51 AM
I've explained this before if you want you can do some research.


I don't care if you've "explained" it before. I could explain how I've cheered for the Slovenian National Team since I was old enough to remember, that wouldn't make it true.

DAF86
09-10-2009, 10:55 AM
I don't care if you've "explained" it before. I could explain how I've cheered for the Slovenian National Team since I was old enough to remember, that wouldn't make it true.

I've explained it in one of my first posts ever as a ST member, why the fuck would a lie about that? Why the fuck would I lie about anything on the Internet? you have to be a pretty sad person to do that.