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Winehole23
09-08-2009, 12:36 PM
The Next Financial Crisis (http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/the-next-financial-crisis)

It's coming--and we just made it worse.


http://www.tnr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/detail_page/TunnelLight_2.jpg


To many observers, the Federal Reserve has never looked more heroic than it does right now. This past winter, America’s financial system faced the prospect of utter ruin. And, while the economy has suffered plenty in 2009, the worst did not come to pass. The banking system that lends to our employers, thereby allowing our economy to function, never did collapse. Now, many of the accolades for averting catastrophe are going to the Fed. President Obama himself ratified this analysis last week when he renominated Fed chairman Ben Bernanke for a second term. Bernanke, the president told reporters, had marshaled “his background, his temperament, his courage, and his creativity” to help prevent a second Great Depression.
What these words of presidential praise obscured was that the Fed may well have mitigated our current crisis by sowing the seeds for the next one.

All modern economies need a financial system that can connect people who want to save with those who have good investment projects. This is essentially what banks do. But, unfortunately, this process often goes wrong. And that is precisely what is happening now. Our banks have gotten into the habit of needing to be rescued through repeated bailouts. During this crisis, Bernanke--while saving the financial system in the short term--has done nothing to break this long-term pattern; worse, he exacerbated it. As a result, unless real reform happens soon, we face the prospect of another bubble-bust-bailout cycle that will be even more dangerous than the one we’ve just been through.


If you’ve studied U.S. economic history, none of this will come as a surprise. We have seen this spectacle--the Fed saving us from one crisis only to instigate another--many times before. And, over the past few decades, the problem has become significantly more dire. The fault, to be sure, doesn’t lie entirely with the Fed. Bernanke is a prisoner of a financial system with serious built-in flaws. The decisions he made during the recent crisis weren’t necessarily the wrong decisions; indeed, they were, in many respects, the decisions he had to make. But these decisions, however necessary in the moment, are almost guaranteed to hurt our economy in the long run--which, in turn, means that more necessary but harmful measures will be needed in the future. It is a debilitating, vicious cycle. And at the center of this cycle is the Fed.

Banking was once a dangerous profession. In Britain, for instance, bankers faced “unlimited liability”--that is, if you ran a bank, and the bank couldn’t repay depositors or other creditors, those people had the right to confiscate all your personal assets and income until you repaid. It wasn’t until the second half of the nineteenth century that Britain established limited liability for bank owners. From that point on, British bankers no longer assumed much financial risk themselves.


In the United States, there was great experimentation with banking during the 1800s, but those involved in the enterprise typically made a substantial commitment of their own capital. For example, there was a well-established tradition of “double liability,” in which stockholders were responsible for twice the original value of their shares in a bank. This encouraged stockholders to carefully monitor bank executives and employees. And, in turn, it placed a lot of pressure on those who managed banks. If they fared poorly, they typically faced personal and professional ruin. The idea that a bank executive would retain wealth and social status in the event of a self-induced calamity would have struck everyone--including bank executives themselves--as ludicrous.


Enter, in the early part of the twentieth century, the Federal Reserve. The Fed was founded in 1913, but discussion about whether to create a central bank had swirled for years. “No one can carefully study the experience of the other great commercial nations,” argued Republican Senator Nelson Aldrich in an influential 1909 speech, “without being convinced that disastrous results of recurring financial crises have been successfully prevented by a proper organization of capital and by the adoption of wise methods of banking and of currency”--in other words, a central bank. In November 1910, Aldrich and a small group of top financiers met on an isolated island off the coast of Georgia. There, they hammered out a draft plan to create a strong central bank that would be owned by banks themselves. What these bankers essentially wanted was a bailout mechanism for the aftermath of speculative crashes--something more durable than J.P. Morgan, who saved the day in the Panic of 1907 but couldn’t be counted on to live forever. While they sought informal government backing and substantial government financial support for their new venture, the bankers also wanted it to remain free of government interference, oversight, or control.


The initial idea was politically controversial: It looked like a trick to get taxpayers to effectively finance banks and their various speculations. The eventual compromise, brokered by Woodrow Wilson, diluted the Fed’s proposed powers and gave the government a stronger hand. But, while those who hatched the Fed didn’t get everything they wanted, they did get the most important thing: an institution that could help cushion the blow when banking crises occurred.


In the years to come, the Fed would repeatedly provide lifelines to banks in need of help. This support has taken two broad forms: liquidity loans, whereby the Fed gives a bank a short-term loan that can be rolled over many times; and lower interest rates, which increase banks’ profits by reducing the cost of most of their funding. These efforts would often help to mitigate individual disasters. But, by insulating banks from the terrible consequences of their own blunders, these measures would also encourage them to keep taking unwise risks, and thereby lay the groundwork for future crises.

In 2002, Ben Bernankeissued an apology on behalf of the Fed--but not for anything he had done. Bernanke was apologizing for the Fed’s role in causing the Great Depression. He was referring to the fact that the Fed’s monetary policy had been too tight from 1929 to 1933, allowing too many banks to fail. But this is only half the story. During the heady days of summer 1927, the Fed had done something else that would contribute to the Great Depression: It lowered interest rates. Markets responded to the rate cuts with a strong rally in the second half of 1927, and the Fed then decided to raise rates from 3.5 percent to 5 percent in 1928. But it stopped there. A higher rate would have choked off farmers who needed capital and were facing falling commodity prices throughout the decade. Moreover, it would have ended the bonanza of stock price gains that was benefiting the financial sector. To reduce risk, the Fed could have used its powers to convince banks to stop providing loans for stock purchases and to increase their capital, but this too would have ended the bonanza. It was a classic Fed dilemma: Should it raise rates and take other actions to curtail financial speculation involving excessive risk-taking, but possibly slow down the rest of the (real, not financial) economy in the process--and bear the resulting political damage? The Fed decided to stand aside. And so, history’s most damaging economic bubble was created.


After 1929, the government considerably tightened the rules controlling banks, securities transactions, and risk-taking more generally. For a while, the system worked reasonably well. But, eventually, banks would learn how to play the new game. They would spend serious money lobbying to keep regulations lax, hiring lawyers and accountants to find methods to minimize or avoid regulations, and incentivizing employees to hide risk from regulators. While the banking sector became more risky, creditors to banks (such as depositors and lenders) knew they could count on the Fed to engineer bailouts via lower interest rates and access to credit if times got tough--so banks had no trouble raising funding from creditors, and our financial system grew rapidly.


The Fed did not create this atmosphere of elevated risk, but it ended up playing a central role in perpetuating it. Since the 1970s, successive financial crises have required ever more dramatic reactions from the Fed. Every time there is a potential financial meltdown, the Federal Open Market Committee quickly cuts short-term interest rates. These cuts have become larger and larger over time, now essentially taking interest rates to zero. Each round of interest-rate cuts has made sense when a given crisis breaks. But these cuts--which effectively function as bailouts for banks that have gotten into trouble--often helped bring about the next financial crisis. And the crises are getting larger, not smaller, over time.


Every crisis of the past few decades has had its distinctive features, of course, but the broad pattern is the same. Paul Volcker cut interest rates after the Latin American debt crisis broke in the early 1980s; this lowered the cost of funding speculative real-estate deals and--combined with regulatory breakdown--helped pave the way for the S&L crisis. Ironically, Volcker--seen as the very model of a traditional anti-inflation central banker--presided over the first major modern instance of using interest policy to help banks get back on their feet. Next, Alan Greenspan cut interest rates following the stock-market crash of 1987 and the development of commercial real-estate problems in the late 1980s and early ‘90s. The resulting credit boom helped push (unregulated) financial exuberance into emerging markets. One by one, there would be crises in those emerging markets: Mexico, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Korea, Russia, and Brazil all experienced economic calamity between 1995 and 1998.


In September 1998, we saw the failure of a single lightly regulated U.S. hedge fund, Long-Term Capital Management. This threatened our financial system, and the Fed cut rates preemptively--making popular the term “Greenspan put.” (A put is a contract that gives the owner the right to sell assets at a fixed price, and it is often used to lock in profits or limit losses. So, if your assets fell in value, Greenspan would effectively buy them or--literally--put a floor under their value. Stocks, for example, are underpinned by future expected company earnings; the value today of those future flows goes up when interest rates are lower--so any cut by the Fed is welcomed by stock-market investors.) In a bright shining moment, markets realized that the Fed was prepared, through interest rate cuts and loose credit, to do whatever it took to bail out financiers facing large losses. Risk-taking without fear for the consequences became the name of the game, at least for our largest financial players: They get the upside if things go well, and the Fed will limit their downside when the speculative frenzy of the day finally runs out of steam.


This environment helped feed the technology bubble--and bust. And this led to further rate cuts--championed by Bernanke, then working under Greenspan. Those 2001 rate cuts--and subsequent decisions to hold interest rates low--encouraged our housing bubble. The phrase “Bernanke put” is now catching hold, meaning an explosive burst of bailouts, liquidity provision, and supportive fiscal stimulus far larger than anything implemented under Greenspan. But Bernanke’s mega-put is just one further step along a path that was established long ago, back in 1913 when the Federal Reserve was founded.


Over the past century, we have moved away from a system where bank shareholders and senior executives paid dearly for bad management--and toward a system where fired bank bosses make off with fortunes or launch brilliant political careers. No one is on the financial hook, other than the taxpayer. Consider the case of Citigroup, a seriously troubled bank. Chuck Prince, the CEO who fell flat on his face, walked away with close to $100 million. Win Bischoff, former chairman and interim CEO of Citigroup during the debacle, has just been appointed chairman of Lloyds Banking Group in the United Kingdom--reflecting the high esteem in which he is apparently still held. And Robert Rubin, Treasury secretary under Clinton, made over $100 million as board member and chair of Citigroup. In an interview late in 2008, he brushed off any responsibility for the mismanagement of anything. And so, our recurring financial crises are not isolated random events; they emerge from a pattern of private and public sector behavior. Enabled by the Fed, our system’s tolerance for risk is out of control. This is an increasingly dangerous system. It is only a matter of time until it collapses again.

What will that collapse look like? The bubbles this time will likely appear abroad. Parts of Asia and Latin America, a tiny fraction of the size of the U.S. economy, are experiencing large capital inflows, low interest rates, and the beginnings of a major boom. Countries with intact banking systems and access to global capital markets will lead the next speculative wave. The United States will be pulled in--probably soon enough that we will all be surprised by a supposedly robust recovery, fed by continued low interest rates and loose credit. We all know these episodes end in tears, but they can be spectacular while they last.


Just like in the late 1920s, most central banks--the Fed among them--will undoubtedly wait a long time to raise interest rates. Inflation remains low, and bankers will surely argue that financial-sector fragility means we should be cautious. It would take a tremendous political battle to stop the next bubble; who wants to take away the punch bowl in the midst of a perceived boom? By the time the Fed and other central banks get around to tightening monetary policy, it will already be too late.


Based on what we have seen over the past two decades, the cost of the next collapse will invariably be steep. Since the early 1980s, the Fed has gone back to its origins as the bailout machine for the financial sector. The only difference is that this sector has become much larger since 1907 or 1913. Back then, it accounted for around one percent of GDP. Now it is closer to 8 percent. The cost of bailouts--the current one and those to come--has skyrocketed as a result.

In June 2009, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner unveiled the administration’s plans for reforming our financial sector and preventing a major crisis from happening again. The cornerstone of the proposal is to (slightly) reduce the number of agencies carrying out regulation, and to give new powers to the Fed.


Unfortunately, these changes are unlikely to work. They do not alter the enormous incentive our banks have to take excessive risks. They don’t address the fact that strong financial groups can lobby our lawmakers and beat down regulators until they are largely ineffective. And they don’t affect our propagation mechanism: The printing presses at the Fed remain open and available for when the next crash comes, and that makes creditors confident that they can lend without risk to our heavily leveraged financial sector. As long as this combination remains in place, today’s financial executives fully understand that the party goes on.


Consider the lessons learned in the past twelve months by our major banks. If they again get into serious financial trouble, the Fed can be counted on to lend them essentially unlimited amounts at effectively zero interest rates. What would you do with free money? You’d pay off all your old debts, then you’d find something to invest in that would yield a decent return. But then you’d reckon--why not take more risk? After all, if things go badly, you’ll get more free money.


We don’t need to repeat history and make bank owners subject to “unlimited liability”--but we do need to make their financial outcomes more closely linked to the risks they take. First, we should sharply raise capital requirements at banks so that the shareholders have more at stake. Shareholders need to feel that when a bank takes gambles, their money is truly at risk. Under our current regulations, a bank like Goldman Sachs puts up only $1 billion of equity for every $13 billion of assets. Who is taking this risk? It is us--as taxpayers.


How much capital is enough? This is a hard question, with no definite answer. One answer, offered by Nobel Prize winner Robert Merton in 1995, is: not much. Merton reasoned that modern risk management and the availability of sophisticated hedging strategies meant that more and more of what banks do is essentially riskless and, therefore, does not need capital. Of course, Merton was deeply involved in the failure of Long-Term Capital Management in 1998, as well as the broader ideological development that underpinned the highly leveraged strategies built around housing during the early 2000s. His view remains theoretically elegant but completely ignores the reality that our financial system--because we bail it out every time things go wrong--provides strong incentives to take bad gambles.


The idea that banks should carry an “equity cushion” (to absorb losses before anyone has to turn to the government) worth around only 6 or 8 percent of their assets is a quite modern idea. (As recently as the mid-nineteenth century, banks financed significantly more of their assets with equity.) Perhaps a low equity cushion made sense when banks were tightly regulated and limited in the risks they could take, say from 1935 to around 1980. But leading students of central banking today, such as Charles Goodhart, argue strongly that, with the collapse of effective regulation over the past two decades, thin equity layers at many leading banks (in combination with limited liability of shareholders) are completely inappropriate for maintaining a stable financial system.


Second, the managers and boards of directors of financial institutions should be personally liable up to a reasonable sum when their companies fail. They should lose a portion of past salaries and bonuses, while also seeing their bank-provided pensions reduced substantially. Richard Parsons, the chair of Citigroup since February 2009, is estimated to be worth more than $100 million. Yet he reports that he owns only around $750,000 of Citi stock. Such negligible personal downside risk for the board of directors is the norm in high finance today. We should let bank executives be paid well when they are successful--but they should truly lose if they take risks that lead to taxpayer bailouts. It can take up to a decade before the success or failure of past business decisions really becomes evident in banking, so reductions in pensions, and clawback of bonuses, should take this into account.


Third, we need to set rules so that our regulators and public servants, who have the role of protecting taxpayers, are not financially conflicted. Today, the revolving door from government leads directly into the lobbies of our major banks. We need a rule that all employees of the Fed, the U.S. Treasury, and other regulatory bodies are not permitted to work in finance for at least five years after they leave office. If government employees have joined a regulatory authority from the financial sector, they should have a “cooling off” period within which they are prohibited from any official role in the design or implementation of regulation or bailouts.


Finally, we need more assertive leadership at the Fed regarding broader system issues. The Fed, of course, will protest, “This is not our job.” It will say that Treasury is responsible for the administration’s approach and that authority ultimately rests with Congress.


This is true, strictly speaking. The Fed did not create our current atmosphere of deregulated risk-taking. But neither is the Fed blameless. The Fed is partly a prisoner of the current system--but it is also partly a jailer. In the moments when the Fed is presented with a rescue-the-banks-or-the-economy-will-collapse scenario, it is a prisoner. But the Fed, and especially the chairman of the Fed’s board, has plenty of power to shape the environment that produces this choice. And it has taken on the challenge of shaping the financial climate before.


During the 1930s, Fed chair Marriner Eccles was an advocate for change across the financial system. Now, Bernanke needs to play the same role. He needs to advocate for rules and regulations that ensure financial leaders will bear serious costs when there is a future failure due to excessive risk-taking. Otherwise, the Fed will continue to be a handmaiden to repeated bailouts. And, with each bailout laying the groundwork for the next one, the peril facing our financial system will only grow worse.


Peter Boone is chairman of Effective Intervention, a Britain-based charity, and a research associate at the London School of Economics’s Centre for Economic Performance. Simon Johnson is a professor at MIT’s Sloan School of Management and a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. They write for The Baseline Scenario, a blog on economics.

SpurNation
09-08-2009, 01:20 PM
And, with each bailout laying the groundwork for the next one, the peril facing our financial system will only grow worse.



Our recent bailouts can be directly linked to politicians lobbying for investment to finance government mandated programs knowing that taxation of the public alone wouldn't be enough to support their agenda.

But the only delima a politician might face would be not getting re-elected. But of course by then...it wouldn't matter because of the financial gain they personally would have accumulated before the possibilty of that endeavor failing.

And we all know that politicians can't be held fiscally accountable for future failure due to excessive risk-taking...it will be the public to burdon those mistakes. Though I would like to see fiscal accountability held to any politician that advocates any government program that is financed by any means other than taxes.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 01:22 PM
And I'd like to see banks and financial institutions pay for their own failures, instead of handing us the tab.

boutons_deux
09-08-2009, 01:25 PM
"politicians lobbying for investment to finance government mandated programs"

you are fucking insane

anyway, WHICH "government mandated programs" has the Financial Sector paid for because politicians asked them to pay for them?

holy fuckin shit, you guys are beyond ridiculous. :lol

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 01:33 PM
"politicians lobbying for investment to finance government mandated programs"I do not find this quote -- or any words to this effect --in the article.

What are you talking about, b_d?

LnGrrrR
09-08-2009, 01:35 PM
Interesting article. I'm no economics whiz, so I'm not sure if this plan would work or not. I do think that only needing to maintain 6 to 8% of capital is ridiculous.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 01:39 PM
If b_d is talking about goosing capital ratios, increased FDIC premiums or having the financial sector contribute to cost of the agencies that police it, I hardly see what the problem is. All that goes to ordinary prudence and responsibility for a sector that gambled and lost, and for which we have had to pawn our future prosperity as far as the eye can see.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 02:11 PM
OIC. b_d was responding to SpurNation's take.

My bad, b_d.

I wonder what SpurNation was talking about.

SpurNation
09-08-2009, 02:24 PM
"politicians lobbying for investment to finance government mandated programs"

you are fucking insane

anyway, WHICH "government mandated programs" has the Financial Sector paid for because politicians asked them to pay for them?

holy fuckin shit, you guys are beyond ridiculous. :lol

Government has long exercised massive control over the housing and financial markets–including its creation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (which have now amassed $5 trillion in liabilities)–leading to many of the problems being blamed on the free market today.

Consider the low lending standards that were a significant component of the mortgage crisis. Lenders made millions of loans to borrowers who, under normal market conditions, weren’t able to pay them off. These decisions have cost lenders, especially leading financial institutions, tens of billions of dollars.

It is popular to take low lending standards as proof that the free market has failed, that the system that is supposed to reward productive behavior and punish unproductive behavior has failed to do so. Yet this claim ignores that for years irrational lending standards have been forced on lenders by the federal Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) and rewarded (at taxpayers’ expense) by multiple government bodies.

http://www.verumserum.com/?p=2649

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 02:28 PM
You blame the pols. Fair enough. But financial institutions failed in the task of risk management, to say nothing of fiduciary responsibility. IMO there's plenty of blame to go around. Government, the banks, GSEs, broker-dealers -- and ordinary Americans -- are all at fault. There's no single culpable entity.

SpurNation
09-08-2009, 02:35 PM
You blame the pols. Fair enough. But financial institutions failed in the task of risk management, to say nothing of fiduciary responsibility. IMO there's plenty of blame to go around. Government, the banks, GSEs, broker-dealers -- and ordinary Americans -- are all at fault. There's no single culpable entity.

Oh I agree 100%. And I'm also in agreement with having CEO's fiscally responsible for their actions.

But in fairness...if political agenda is to blame their should be fiscal responsibility on the politicians who help to enforce irresponsible behavior.
Not the taxpayers of this nation.

I know...it's a personal opinion that probably will never come to fruition.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 02:40 PM
But in fairness...if political agenda is to blame their should be fiscal responsibility on the politicians who help to enforce irresponsible behavior.

Not the taxpayers of this nation.I see what you're saying, but the the primary responsibility IMO lies with all the institutions that saw such a big upside gaming the system, and then dumped all their losses on us when their malinvestment went sour.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 02:48 PM
The CRA is a big part of the story for the GSE's, but doesn't explain why the broker-dealers bought so much bad risk, or Americans so many homes they couldn't afford. Deceptive (and irresponsible) business practices are also part of the picture here. Government provided the legal environment and the Fed rock bottom rates, but the corporations are still responsible for what they do.

It's not like pure capitalism exists anywhere outside the legal context provided by states, so it must share the blame. Suggesting it doesn't is like apologizing for the failure of socialism by arguing "real" socialism has never been tried yet.

SpurNation
09-08-2009, 03:16 PM
The CRA is a big part of the story for the GSE's, but doesn't explain why the broker-dealers bought so much bad risk, or Americans so many homes they couldn't afford. Deceptive (and irresponsible) business practices are also part of the picture here. Government provided the legal environment and the Fed rock bottom rates, but the corporations are still responsible for what they do.

It's not like pure capitalism exists anywhere outside the legal context provided by states, so it must share the blame. Suggesting it doesn't is like apologizing for the failure of socialism by arguing "real" socialism has never been tried yet.

Agreed.

I'm interested in your thoughts regarding the buyouts of banking institutions such as Washington Mutual and Wachovia by the larger institutions like Chase and Well Fargo. My understanding is that WF and Bank of America were in a bidding war for the purchase of Wachovia.

Do you have insight to how this will effect the irresponsible loans made by these defunked financial institutions? Will Chase and Wells Fargo be responsible for the entire failed excersises or is the government willing to forgive a portion of debt incurred?

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 03:25 PM
I'm interested in your thoughts regarding the buyouts of banking institutions such as Washington Mutual and Wachovia by the larger institutions like Chase and Well Fargo. My understanding is that WF and Bank of America were in a bidding war for the purchase of Wachovia.

Do you have insight to how this will effect the irresponsible loans made by these defunked financial institutions? Will Chase and Wells Fargo be responsible for the entire failed excersises or is the government willing to forgive a portion of debt incurred?I don't.

My understanding is that bank and financial mergers post 9/15/2008 have been to varying degrees shepherded by the government, so it makes sense that some of the bad risk incurred in the takeovers might eventually end up in the government's lap.

I'm not sure about this at all. Just a hunch, we'll end up paying for even more. The financial sector bailout isn't anywhere near an end IMO. I think it's possible it might become even worse when prime, jumbo and commercial markets start to go belly up.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 03:36 PM
By the way, I'm borrowing your misspelling of defunct.

"Defunked" might work even better in certain cases. :lol

boutons_deux
09-08-2009, 03:39 PM
CRA/fannie/freddie have no influence on non-bank lenders who wrote $Bs in sub-prime loans, pocketed their fees, and then sold them into outerspace

boutons_deux
09-08-2009, 03:40 PM
I'm still waiting for how the govt forced the financial sector (banksters) to finance government-mandated programs.

I expect an infinite wait.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 03:42 PM
CRA/fannie/freddie have no influence on non-bank lenders who wrote $Bs in sub-prime loans, pocketed their fees, and then sold them into outerspaceAlready mentioned upstream.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm still waiting for how the govt forced the financial sector (banksters) to finance government-mandated programs.

I expect an infinite wait.SpurNation seemed to be saying this at first, but accepted my amplification in exactly this vein. The conversation has already moved past this.

Would you like to join it b_d, or will you rest content to castigate absent posters for superceded comments?

SpurNation
09-08-2009, 04:11 PM
I don't.

My understanding is that bank and financial mergers post 9/15/2008 have been to varying degrees shepherded by the government, so it makes sense that some of the bad risk incurred in the takeovers might eventually end up in the government's lap.

I'm not sure about this at all. Just a hunch, we'll end up paying for even more. The financial sector bailout isn't anywhere near an end IMO. I think it's possible it might become even worse when prime, jumbo and commercial markets start to go belly up.

Thanks for the input. I've been wanting to invest somewhere. But until I see a definate positive in a market upswing...I think I will have to do what so many in my situation need to do and stand pat.

For potential investors that have little to invest such as myself we can't just "gamble" with our known assets.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 04:15 PM
Emerging markets, food and fuel might be areas to consider, but I would definitely seek advice from a certified financial counselor -- and then double and triple check that advice for myself -- before doing anything.

I'm not one of those, so whatever I say, you should take with a grain of salt. See a pro, then do your own due diligence.

Marcus Bryant
09-08-2009, 06:10 PM
And I'd like to see banks and financial institutions pay for their own failures, instead of handing us the tab.


http://media.podhoster.com/thatradio/images/bigstockphoto_hammer_striking_nail_w_sparks_333329 .jpg

SpurNation
09-08-2009, 06:11 PM
SpurNation seemed to be saying this at first, but accepted my amplification in exactly this vein. The conversation has already moved past this.

Would you like to join it b_d, or will you rest content to castigate absent posters for superceded comments?

Check Miriam with regards to the bolded word. :toast


I'm still waiting for how the govt forced the financial sector (banksters) to finance government-mandated programs.

I expect an infinite wait.

With all due respect to Winehole23...I do agree with your explination that financial lenders were at fault based on greed.

To answer b_d....


The government has promoted bad loans not just through the stick of the CRA but through the carrot of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which purchase, securitize and guarantee loans made by lenders and whose debt is itself implicitly guaranteed by the federal government. This setup created an easy, artificial profit opportunity for lenders to wrap up bundles of subprime loans and sell them to a government-backed buyer whose primary mandate was to “promote homeownership,” not to apply sound lending standards.

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 06:19 PM
Check Miriam with regards to the bolded word. :toastI thought so. I get one wrong now and then. I trusted my stupid spellcheck instead of my hunches. Thanks for the heads up.

nuclearfm
09-08-2009, 06:57 PM
I think this is just a way to measure the instability in the US economy. The real problem is the GDP, mainly our production of goods. We don't make anything anymore, yet we buy much much more. It Doesn't hold well for stability.

Buy USA when you can

Nbadan
09-08-2009, 07:51 PM
the economy is primed for a run but the wheels seem to be stuck in the mud because of unemployment...we need a economic stimulus for taxpayers, about $2500 per....to get the car rolling...

Nbadan
09-08-2009, 08:04 PM
payoff and writeoffs...


WASHINGTON (MarketWatch)- U.S. consumers reduced their credit burden by a record amount in July, the Federal Reserve reported Tuesday. Total seasonally adjusted consumer debt fell $21.55 billion, or at a 10.4% annual rate, in July to $2.47 trillion. This is the sixth straight monthly drop in consumer credit. Consumers have retrenched since the financial crisis hit the economy in full force last September. Credit has fallen in every month since then except January. Economists surveyed by MarketWatch expected consumer credit to decline by $4.3 billion. This is the longest consecutive string of declines in credit since the second half of 1991. In the subcategories, credit-card debt fell $6.11 billion, or 8.5%, to $905.58 billion. This is the record 11th straight monthly drop in credit card debt. Non-revolving credit, such as auto loans, personal loans and student loans fell a record $15.44 billion or 11.7% to $1.57 trillion.

MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-consumer-credit-down-record-amount-in-july-2009-09-08?siteid=bnbh)

People are reducing debt and saving at a record pace, not two good ingredients for substantial long-term gains...or the economy for now...

Winehole23
09-08-2009, 08:33 PM
To me it means people are starting to put their financial houses in order and live within their means -- an unquestionably good thing IMO. Thrift is the traditional cradle of capital.

Wild Cobra
09-09-2009, 01:18 AM
the Federal Reserve has never looked more heroic than it does right now.
You lost me there, but I'll continue reading.

Wild Cobra
09-09-2009, 01:23 AM
Simple solution. Investors lose their money if there is a meltdown. No bailouts. Do not reward bad behavior, but loan money to the banks that have stayed in good standing when people come to them for loans.

Winehole23
09-09-2009, 01:32 AM
Would it were so simple. The downstream wreckage from unrestrained deflation/debt default might include not only our financial masters, but the political power they support.

That is why it will never be allowed to happen.

Winehole23
09-09-2009, 01:37 AM
In a just world, I agree with you that is what should happen, WC.

But any true conservative should also be concerned to prevent any grave instability that may tend to destroy our form of government, and with it the rights and liberties it guarantees, and we enjoy.

Wild Cobra
09-09-2009, 01:46 AM
Would it were so simple. The downstream wreckage from unrestrained deflation/debt default might include not only our financial masters, but the political power they support.

That is why it will never be allowed to happen.

I know. They are in bet with the enemy. They shouldn't be. The only time it's proper to be in bed with the enemy is when you are married. I think the original quote goes like this:


Marriage is the only war where you can sleep with the enemy.

Wild Cobra
09-09-2009, 01:49 AM
In a just world, I agree with you that is what should happen, WC.

But any true conservative should also be concerned to prevent any grave instability that may tend to destroy our form of government, and with it the rights and liberties it guarantees, and we enjoy.
I don't see how it could destroy the government. We need to stop politicians from being self centered to begin with. I would love it if we could make them responsible somehow, but our freedoms allow the media to lie about their friends.

I'm willing to risk instability if I'm wrong. We would only come out stronger anyway.

Winehole23
09-09-2009, 01:49 AM
Marriage is the only war where you can sleep with the enemy.

The arms of love, eh? How antique.

Winehole23
09-09-2009, 01:53 AM
I'm willing to risk instability if I'm wrong. We would only come out stronger anyway.I think it's worth the risk too, but am less sanguine than you that everything would turn out for the best. Anytime the legitimacy of our government and our economic system are broadly questioned, is a dangerous time. The Great Depression sure was.

Wild Cobra
09-09-2009, 01:56 AM
The arms of love, eh? How antique.
That line was just on a DVD I watched today. I kind of like it.

Winehole23
01-30-2014, 11:46 AM
The bubbles this time will likely appear abroad. Parts of Asia and Latin America, a tiny fraction of the size of the U.S. economy, are experiencing large capital inflows, low interest rates, and the beginnings of a major boom. Countries with intact banking systems and access to global capital markets will lead the next speculative wave. The United States will be pulled in--probably soon enough that we will all be surprised by a supposedly robust recovery, fed by continued low interest rates and loose credit. We all know these episodes end in tears, but they can be spectacular while they last.


Just like in the late 1920s, most central banks--the Fed among them--will undoubtedly wait a long time to raise interest rates. Inflation remains low, and bankers will surely argue that financial-sector fragility means we should be cautious. It would take a tremendous political battle to stop the next bubble; who wants to take away the punch bowl in the midst of a perceived boom? By the time the Fed and other central banks get around to tightening monetary policy, it will already be too late.this time, perhaps, by tapering QE:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e83f8b90-8907-11e3-9f48-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz2rXiWbqaB

Winehole23
02-03-2014, 06:29 PM
After the 2011 market event which saw margin levels decline, margin debt and free cash balances largely followed each other very closely. That suggested investors were optimistic, but not overly so. Like a switch, cash balances declined $31 billion in January 2013 while margin debt balances grew by $33 billion – a $64 billion swing in net worth to the negative. For the year, total margin debt usage jumped by an almost incomprehensible $123 billion, while cash balances declined by $19 billion.

That $142 billion leveraged bet on stocks far surpasses any twelve month period in history. The only times that were even close to as leveraged were the year leading up to June 2007 (-$89 billion) and the twelve months preceding February and March 2000 (-$77 billion). Both of those marked significant tops in the market.

http://www.alhambrapartners.com/2014/01/28/the-year-of-leverage/

angrydude
02-03-2014, 06:33 PM
In a just world, I agree with you that is what should happen, WC.

But any true conservative should also be concerned to prevent any grave instability that may tend to our fascist form of government, and with it the rights and liberties it guarantees, and we enjoy.

fixed

Winehole23
02-03-2014, 06:48 PM
just curious, fascist how?

pgardn
02-03-2014, 07:11 PM
Simple solution. Investors lose their money if there is a meltdown. No bailouts. Do not reward bad behavior, but loan money to the banks that have stayed in good standing when people come to them for loans.

So you are OK with the possibility the exchange of money ceases?

Winehole23
02-03-2014, 08:25 PM
so, you are ok with chronic instability (a series of asset bubbles) essentially caused by countercyclical monetary policy?

pgardn
02-03-2014, 09:22 PM
so, you are ok with chronic instability (a series of asset bubbles) essentially caused by countercyclical monetary policy?

My statement and your scenario are not mutually inclusive.

pgardn
02-03-2014, 09:42 PM
There basically was a series of events that worked concert and fed upon each other. I happen to think it was unique in a number of ways. You gave some good possible solutions, read them. When you have investment banks behaving like insurance companies, but are not required to maintain a level of liquid assets, that's a problem.

When you have mortgage companies playing everyone gets a loan, AND investment banks hiding the quality of the securities, that's a problem.

Put the above together and this is unlawful fraud.

Individual investors should have access to the tools to decipher deception. Plenty of people in the banks saw what was going on. Plenty of people in the Mortgage business saw what was going on. But there was no real agency to look into the fraud. The bookkeeping is made to make deception easy. Financial instruments to aid the economy do not need to be complex as to be deceptive.

To a certain extent investors/consumers who are extraordinarily ignorant in their greed need to be held responsible of course. But this has always been, and will always be a problem... How much of a role should government play in protecting people from themselves.

boutons_deux
02-03-2014, 09:49 PM
deep financial depressions like the 1930s and 2010s are not the only instability. The business cycle is another "mysterious" instability of US economy.

DUNCANownsKOBE
02-03-2014, 09:50 PM
Maybe the link Winehole posted mentioned this but securitized consumer debt and the rental bond Blackstone released a few months ago are both bubbles in the making.

angrydude
02-04-2014, 03:16 AM
deep financial depressions like the 1930s and 2010s are not the only instability. The business cycle is another "mysterious" instability of US economy.

There's nothing mysterious about the business cycle. It's caused by an economy that was built incorrectly. It was built incorrectly because of banks counterfeiting money.

Jacob1983
02-04-2014, 04:56 AM
I'm ready for the revolution. Bring this shit on.

boutons_deux
02-04-2014, 05:54 AM
There's nothing mysterious about the business cycle. It's caused by an economy that was built incorrectly. It was built incorrectly because of banks counterfeiting money.

how would you "build the economy"?

you have a very strange, and wrong, idea of counterfeiting.