35% of HS students don't finish HS in SA

[SpurNation]

As reported on local news channels.

Because they drop out?... move to another part of the state or country?... or Both?

Interesting reporting after the president's education/stay in school speech.

[SnakeBoy]

That's pretty good. SA must be doing something right.

[MannyIsGod]

That's pretty good. SA must be doing something right.

Wow.

[MannyIsGod]

Education is the single biggest domestic problem we have going forward in this country and most people have no clue. Those numbers are much worse at many of the cities schools. You remove some of the Northside and NEISD schools and you're looking at schools that barely graduate one out of every 2 students.

[boutons_deux]

College isn't much better

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/nytlogo153x23.gif (http://www.nytimes.com/)

September 9, 2009
Economic Scene

Colleges Are Failing in Graduation Rates

By DAVID LEONHARDT (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/david_leonhardt/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

If you were going to come up with a list of organizations whose failures had done the most damage to the American economy in recent years, you’d probably have to start with the Wall Street firms and regulatory agencies that brought us the financial crisis (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/c/credit_crisis/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). From there, you might move on to Wall Street’s fellow bailout recipients in Detroit, the once-Big Three.

But I would suggest that the list should also include a less obvious nominee: public universities.

At its top levels, the American system of higher education may be the best in the world. Yet in terms of its core mission — turning teenagers into educated college graduates — much of the system is simply failing.

Only 33 percent of the freshmen who enter the University of Massachusetts (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_massachusetts/index.html?inline=nyt-org), Boston, graduate within six years. Less than 41 percent graduate from the University of Montana, and 44 percent from the University of New Mexico (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_new_mexico/index.html?inline=nyt-org). The economist Mark Schneider refers to colleges with such dropout rates as “failure factories (http://www.aei.org/outlook/28863),” and they are the norm.

The United States does a good job enrolling teenagers in college, but only half of students who enroll end up with a bachelor’s degree. Among rich countries, only Italy is worse. That’s a big reason inequality has soared (http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/goldin/files/GoldinKatz_Brookings.pdf), and productivity growth has slowed. Economic growth in this decade was on pace to be slower than in any decade since World War II — even before the financial crisis started.

So identifying the causes of the college dropout crisis matters enormously, and a new book (http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8971.html) tries to do precisely that.

It is called “Crossing the Finish Line (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/finish-line-inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org),” and its findings are based on the records of about 200,000 students at 68 colleges. The authors were able to get their hands on that data because two of them are pillars of the education establishment: William Bowen (http://www.mellon.org/about_foundation/staff/office-of-the-president/williambowen) (an economist and former Princeton president) and Michael McPherson (http://www.tiaa-cref.org/about/governance/corporate/topics/boards/cref_overseers/michael_s_mcpherson.html) (an economist and former Macalester College president).

For all the book’s alarming statistics, its message is ultimately uplifting — or at least invigorating.

Yes, inadequate precollege education is a problem. But high schools still produce many students who have the skills to complete college and yet fail to do so. Turning them into college graduates should be a lot less difficult than fixing all of American education.

“We could be doing a lot better with college completion just by working on our colleges,” as Robert Shireman (http://m.insidehighereducation.com/news/2008/11/17/shireman), an Education Department (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/e/education_department/index.html?inline=nyt-org) official who has read an early version of the book, says.

Congress and the Obama administration are now putting together an education bill that tries to deal with the problem. It would cancel about $9 billion in annual government subsidies for banks that lend to college students and use much of the money to increase financial aid. A small portion of the money would be set aside for promising pilot programs aimed at lifting the number of college graduates. All in all, the bill would help.
But it won’t solve the system’s biggest problems — the focus on enrollment rather than completion, the fact that colleges are not held to account for their failures. “Crossing the Finish Line” makes it clear that we can do better.

•

The first problem that Mr. Bowen, Mr. McPherson and the book’s third author, Matthew Chingos (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/%7Echingos/), a doctoral candidate, diagnose is something they call under-matching. It refers to students who choose not to attend the best college they can get into. They instead go to a less selective one, perhaps one that’s closer to home or, given the torturous financial aid process, less expensive.

About half of low-income students with a high school grade-point average of at least 3.5 and an SAT score of at least 1,200 do not attend the best college they could have. Many don’t even apply. Some apply but don’t enroll. “I was really astonished by the degree to which presumptively well-qualified students from poor families under-matched,” Mr. Bowen told me.

They could have been admitted to Michigan’s Ann Arbor campus (graduation rate: 88 percent, according to College Results Online (http://www.collegeresults.org/)) or Michigan State (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/m/michigan_state_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) (74 percent), but they went, say, to Eastern Michigan (39 percent) or Western Michigan (54 percent). If they graduate, it would be hard to get upset about their choice. But large numbers do not. You can see that in the chart with this column.

In effect, well-off students — many of whom will graduate no matter where they go — attend the colleges that do the best job of producing graduates. These are the places where many students live on campus (which raises graduation rates) and graduation is the norm. Meanwhile, lower-income students — even when they are better qualified — often go to colleges that excel in producing dropouts.

“It’s really a waste,” Mr. Bowen says, “and a big problem for the country.” As the authors point out, the only way to lift the college graduation rate significantly is to lift it among poor and working-class students. Instead, it appears to have fallen somewhat since the 1970s.
What can be done?

Money is clearly part of the answer. Tellingly, net tuition has no impact on the graduation rates of high-income students. Yet it does affect low-income students. All else equal, they are less likely to make it through a more expensive state college than a less expensive one, the book shows. Conservatives are wrong to suggest affordability doesn’t matter.
But they are right that more money isn’t the whole answer. Higher education today also suffers from a deep cultural problem. Failure has become acceptable.

Students see no need to graduate in four years. Doing so, as one told the book’s authors, is “like leaving the party at 10:30 p.m.” Graduation delayed often becomes graduation denied. Administrators then make excuses for their graduation rates. And policy makers hand out money based on how many students a college enrolls rather than on what it does with those students.

There is a real parallel here to health care. We pay doctors and hospitals for more care (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/business/economy/08leonhardt.html?_r=1) instead of better care, and what do we get? More care, even if in many cases it doesn’t make us healthier.

In education, the incentives can be truly perverse. Because large lecture classes are cheaper for a college than seminars, freshmen are cheaper than upperclassmen. So a college that allows many of its underclassmen to drop out may be helping its bottom line.

If you look closely, you can still find reasons for optimism. A few colleges, like the University of Maryland, Baltimore County (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=%22University+of+Maryland%2C+Baltimore +County%22&srchst=nyt&inline=nyt-org), have intensive programs that have raised graduation rates. The State of West Virginia has begun tying student aid to academic progress (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/magazine/01Economy-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=7), and graduation rates there have risen (http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/%7Ejclayton/index_files/Page403.htm). Washington Monthly magazine has published a new college ranking (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings/national_university_social_mobility.php) based in part on graduation rates. (Kudos to Penn State (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/pennsylvania_state_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org), among others.) When students fill out an online form for federal financial aid, the Obama Education Department now informs them of the graduation rate at any college in which they express interest.

But an enormous amount of work remains, and it’s hard to think of any work that’s more important to the American economy.

Last year, even in the grip of a recession (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/r/recession_and_depression/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) that has spared no group of workers, the gap between what a college graduate earned and what everyone else earned reached a record. Workers with bachelor’s degrees made 54 percent more on average than those who attended college but didn’t finish, according to the Labor Department. Fifty-four percent — just think about how that adds up over a lifetime. And then think about how many students never cross the college finish line.

E-mail: [email protected]

[boutons_deux]

dubya's "privatization" of govt student loans to banks and subsidizing those banks with tax dollars is very similar to "privatizing" Medicare Advantage and then subsidizing private health insurance with $50B so it could compete with cheaper, more efficient Medicare.

Conservative "principles" are scams.

[SnakeBoy]

Wow.

Wow what? It's over 50% in many large cities. Maybe Obama can create some kind of federal bureaucracy to fix the problem. Maybe a Department of Learnin or something.

[jack sommerset]

President Obama cannot change this or any president. The parents have too.

[jman3000]

I remember when I was in high school if a student didn't really have any ambition and was comfortable not making anything of themselves, they'd just drop out and take a job in the construction industry. Down here there's probably 1 or 2 degrees of seperation between anybody and somebody who owns or works for a construction crew.

Dropping out might have worked in the past... but I reckon that this economy will make students take a second look at dropping out because that 100% shot at a construction job isn't quite 100% anymore.

I'd say it was 1) Construction jobs 2) Parent's owned a company (usually construction oriented) 3) They were fuck ups and were too stupid/lazy/fucks wads to even do well with an easy as hell curriculum at a public school. 4) Drugs

[Drachen]

That's pretty good. SA must be doing something right.

Ha this statement reminds me of that dating service on MAD TV.
Lowered Expectations.

The only thing MAD TV ever did that even made me smile (except for making fun of that "rollin" song by limp biscuit).

[I. Hustle]

I'm part of that 35%. I graduated in Austin.

[Marcus Bryant]

You'd almost think it was planned.

Also, what kind of education have those who don't drop out and graduate actually received?

[jman3000]

Ha this statement reminds me of that dating service on MAD TV.
Lowered Expectations.

The only thing MAD TV ever did that even made me smile (except for making fun of that "rollin" song by limp biscuit).

Bobby Lee usually had good skits.

[Drachen]

Bobby Lee usually had good skits.

I could never find one. MAD TV only made me angry to watch it. Like not only did it steal my time, but it also stole a piece of me. The fact that it is still on is mind boggling.

[Extra Stout]

1) There is a significant part of the population whose culture teaches that delaying full-time work to get an education is foolish and/or irresponsible.

2) There is a significant part of the population whose culture teaches if a woman gets pregnant, she is supposed to stop her education. Within that group, a fraction still does not believe in educating women at all.

3) Then there are those who hardly have a chance to be educated because they spend their entire childhood with a chaotic home life.

4) Then there are those who might like to finish their education, but have to choose between having enough income to eke out a meager existence and finishing school.

5) Then there are those whose goal in life is to do as little as possible and suck off the resources of the state.

There is never, ever, ever going to be some magic fix to the education system that will raise the graduation rate because the education system is not the problem. The culture of poverty is the problem.

[rjv]

President Obama cannot change this or any president. The parents have too.


not just parents. it's a little more than just that simplification.

[Winehole23]

There is never, ever, ever going to be some magic fix to the education system that will raise the graduation rate because the education system is not the problem. The culture of poverty is the problem The conversion of schools from places of education to administrative facilities for low security detention and behavior modification has something to do with it too. Declining rates of literacy and the declining ratio of teachers to administrators tell the story. We've never spent more, and gotten less, from our schools.

[rjv]

The conversion of schools from places of education to administrative facilities for low security detention and behavior modification has something to do with it too. Declining rates of literacy and the declining ratio of teachers to administrators tell the story. We've never spent more, and gotten less, from our schools.

and this is also a state to state problem as some states are far above others. but the texas system is pathetic. the fact that we have not been able to figure out how to fund our schools ever since edgewood ISD vs. kirby says a hell of a lot.

[MannyIsGod]

The conversion of schools from places of education to administrative facilities for low security detention and behavior modification has something to do with it too. Declining rates of literacy and the declining ratio of teachers to administrators tell the story. We've never spent more, and gotten less, from our schools.

I agree with ES that there are cultural factors involved but it is undeniable that the manner in which we go about educating our children today provides an environment in which these problems are exacerbated.

Its undeniable that children coming from poverty are not in an idle situation to thrive and succeed and there are many factors working against them but to suggest that the only way to correct this is culturally is overly simplistic.

[DarrinS]

Does this 35% represent any kids in private schools, or just the public option?

[nuclearfm]

In general, the the united states is developing a culture of failure. It's really that simple. Where you don't have dropout gangsters, you have wanna-be dropout gangsters.

[DarrinS]

Personally, I have to put a lot of the blame on the parents.

[rjv]

let us remember that this is a state to state issue. (further proof that the state governments can be just as bad as the federal government)

[sam1617]

Also, let us remember that:
A) Its an individual choice. Sure, your options may suck, but it still is possible to finish an education and hold a job, plenty of examples out there.
B) If they are capable of making a living without an education, why shouldn't they drop out?

On a different point, how is this calculated? Are we including people who moved in the 35%? Are we including people who dropped out, then got their GED?

School doesn't magically make you smart, school doesn't magically make you get a good job. School only works if the individual student makes an effort, and to put it bluntly, the only thing a HS diploma provides is a HS diploma, there is no magical knowledge or skills it grants.

[SpurNation]

One of my theories though not exercised through scientific data is the lack of "commitment".

I have noticed over the years that children are increasingly becoming less adherent to commitment. In today's ever esculating presense of immediate gratification...many just give up on move on to something else that provides that gratification.

The causes of this behavior are as multiple as the behavior itself. I know as a parent my children cringe when I lecture them on perservering at any one goal. Attention spans are being shortened and you can see that it mentally hurts them to deal with anything that requires commitment to achieving.

Today our education system doesn't teach children more so than it prepares children to pass a pre-analytical test in order to move forward. But in making it easier for students to pass...they have also created a lack of commitment to learning.

Just my 2 cents...I look forward to dispute or validation.

[rjv]

Also, let us remember that:
School doesn't magically make you smart, school doesn't magically make you get a good job. School only works if the individual student makes an effort, and to put it bluntly, the only thing a HS diploma provides is a HS diploma, there is no magical knowledge or skills it grants.

i have to disagree with this point. there are many skills one can acquire in high school. from carpentry to mechanics and computer programming. also, the fundamentals for calculus, science and engineering can all begin here. even in the liberal arts, this is the best place to begin to sharpen writing and speaking skills. a high school education is the bedrock for future success in a myriad of endeavors and disciplines.

[sam1617]

i have to disagree with this point. there are many skills one can acquire in high school. from carpentry to mechanics and computer programming. also, the fundamentals for calculus, science and engineering can all begin here. even in the liberal arts, this is the best place to begin to sharpen writing and speaking skills. a high school education is the bedrock for future success in a myriad of endeavors and disciplines.

I disagree. School provides none of those. The individual can learn any of those things or all of them through school or on his own. School provides a degree that states that they accomplished some minimal requirements.

And can you state that a HS degree is necessary for to be successful in most blue collar fields? With all honesty, if you went to 2 years of HS, followed by 2 years of trade school or on the job training, you would be far better off than having spent 4 years in HS, at least IMO.

[spurster]

The state has also added requirements making it more difficult to graduate: high stakes exams and additional credits.

[MannyIsGod]

The state has also added requirements making it more difficult to graduate: high stakes exams and additional credits.

The standards are not the problem. They're already incredibly low. To even suggest that HS graduates should not be able to pass these incredibly simple tests is beyond comprehension.

[Nbadan]

The conversion of schools from places of education to administrative facilities for low security detention and behavior modification has something to do with it too. Declining rates of literacy and the declining ratio of teachers to administrators tell the story. We've never spent more, and gotten less, from our schools.

It's much deeper than that. If a student can't control themselves at school, how are they going to hold a job? Will they have the discipline, organizational skills, or even basicknowledge, like how to make change to get a job that doesn't involve picking produce? In the short-term it may be advantageous, especially if your really poor, but it is really short-sighted when you think about the future they could have with a good education.

[ploto]

We had this discussion the other day about the proposed closings of high schools in SAISD and others. If all these kids did not drop out then these schools might be fuller and more viable to stay open. If these communities want to keep these schools open, then they need to send their kids to school.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's much deeper than that. If a student can't control themselves at school, how are they going to hold a job? Will they have the discipline, organizational skills, or even basicknowledge, like how to make change to get a job that doesn't involve picking produce? In the short-term it may be advantageous, especially if your really poor, but it is really short-sighted when you think about the future they could have with a good education.

Of course the primary purpose of public education is to learn how to serve our corporate and state masters. Thanks for pointing that out.

[rjv]

I disagree. School provides none of those. The individual can learn any of those things or all of them through school or on his own. School provides a degree that states that they accomplished some minimal requirements.

And can you state that a HS degree is necessary for to be successful in most blue collar fields? With all honesty, if you went to 2 years of HS, followed by 2 years of trade school or on the job training, you would be far better off than having spent 4 years in HS, at least IMO.

this sounds like an argument for home schools. no to mention this appears to be a world in a vacuum scenario.

there are many skids who are far better off in schools, with access to tools and equipment they would never have in home, school organizations and extracurricular activities and even in some cases a sense of rule and order.

either you are advocating home schooling, which can be effective only for a certain demographic, or essentially stating that the drop out issue is overstated since high schools are inherently unecessary to begin with.

[Winehole23]

either you are advocating home schooling, which can be effective only for a certain demographic, or essentially stating that the drop out issue is overstated since high schools are inherently unecessary to begin with.I think he was saying something in the middle: that not everyone is well suited to go to college. Basic education is of course a necessity, but beyond primary education it would make sense for there to be more vo-tech options for those who do not adapt well to a more academic environment.

And I absolutely agree with Sam's point that self-education is the kernel of learning.

The necessity of universal education is vastly overstated. Any suitably diligent, motivated, persevering person can attain mastery of anything he wishes.

[rjv]

I think he was saying something in the middle: that not everyone is well suited to go to college. Basic education is of course a necessity, but beyond primary education it would make sense for there to be more vo-tech options for those who do not adapt well to a more academic environment.

And I absolutely agree with Sam's point that self-education is the kernel of learning.

The necessity of universal education is vastly overstated. Any suitably diligent, motivated, persevering person can attain mastery of anything he wishes.


oh okay-more like a neo form of social darwinism. i get it.

[Winehole23]

oh okay-more like a neo form of social darwinism. i get it.Ok, more strawman ventriloquism. I get it.

[SpurNation]

The necessity of universal education is vastly overstated. Any suitably diligent, motivated, persevering person can attain mastery of anything he wishes.

to be politically correct....they wish. :toast

Joking aside....your 100% correct.

Some might even argue that the public school system is part of just another "unconstitutional" government program.

[Winehole23]

Some might even argue that the public school system is part of just another "unconstitutional" government program.I wouldn't. Like rjv said, it's a state by state issue.

[rjv]

Ok, more strawman ventriloquism. I get it.

if you want to call an inference 'strawman ventiloquism' so be it, but that would smack of irony.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think he was saying something in the middle: that not everyone is well suited to go to college. Basic education is of course a necessity, but beyond primary education it would make sense for there to be more vo-tech options for those who do not adapt well to a more academic environment.

And I absolutely agree with Sam's point that self-education is the kernel of learning.

The necessity of universal education is vastly overstated. Any suitably diligent, motivated, persevering person can attain mastery of anything he wishes.

Naturally in this country we take something freely obtained by an individual and institutionalize it, then Americanize it, such that it loses its essential character and serves the powerful at the expense of the individual.

[BadMoodBob]

The state has also added requirements making it more difficult to graduate: high stakes exams and additional credits.

lol, the standards are low.



Shitty neighborhoods & shitty parenting leads to shitty grades which leads to shitty lives. It's pretty simple. If it doesn't start at home for the kid, he or she is pretty much fucked unless they have a freak hidden away genetic hard work ethic source to draw upon.

The strong survive. That is Natural Law. Not only do the strong kids have to survive against their peers. Once they grow into strong adults, they then have to survive against the government stealing their earned wealth and giving it to the weak.

[Marcus Bryant]

Kinda like patriotism.

[da_suns_fan]

Students see no need to graduate in four years. Doing so, as one told the book’s authors, is “like leaving the party at 10:30 p.m.” Graduation delayed often becomes graduation denied. Administrators then make excuses for their graduation rates. And policy makers hand out money based on how many students a college enrolls rather than on what it does with those students.



Thanks for posting the article.

I wanted to add that I dont know a single person who went through my same engineering college at ASU in four years. Its damn near impossible. I HEARD about a female who managed to do it in four years but never met her.

[Winehole23]

if you want to call an inference 'strawman ventiloquism' so be it, but that would smack of irony.The implausibilty of your inference struck me. I know Sam a little, and am fairly certain he is not a social darwinist.

For that matter, neither am I.

[Winehole23]

The fact that he and I were talking about an educational scheme more suited to people's actual abilities, rather than some cookie-cutter, abstract equalitarianism, should indicate to you our concern to reform rather than abolish education.

[Marcus Bryant]

An individual is "educated" if they possess a high diploma and an undergraduate degree. Those who do not are considered to be defective in our society and unworthy of respect.

[rjv]

Naturally in this country we take something freely obtained by an individual and institutionalize it, then Americanize it, such that it loses its essential character and serves the powerful at the expense of the individual.

do you think that the fundamental character of american pedagogy is one that pinions the individual? not, mind you, the current construct of education in texas, but rather the theoretical construct. because i think that the pragmatic character of "americanizing" a concept is not synonymous with individual enslavement.

[spurster]

The state has also added requirements making it more difficult to graduate: high stakes exams and additional credits.


The standards are not the problem. They're already incredibly low. To even suggest that HS graduates should not be able to pass these incredibly simple tests is beyond comprehension.

I'm just saying that increasing requirements will naturally result in increasing the dropout rate, whether the requirements are good or not.

[Extra Stout]

I agree with ES that there are cultural factors involved but it is undeniable that the manner in which we go about educating our children today provides an environment in which these problems are exacerbated.
I'd ask for a link, but since your assertion there is 100% content-free bureaucratic boilerplate, there's no point.


Its undeniable that children coming from poverty are not in an idle situation to thrive and succeed and there are many factors working against them but to suggest that the only way to correct this is culturally is overly simplistic.
:rolleyes That's funny, I live in a world where liberal activists are convinced that the only way the correct this is to come up with yet another government education reform plan to try, and yet more money to throw at the problem, preferrably with yet another all-expenses-paid trip to some small, homogeneous Scandinavian country to learn solutions that don't work here any better than the last 2,000 times they were tried.

Two possibilities:
1) Through Spurstalk.com, we are able to communicate across alternate universes, and you live in one where the government thinks the only solution is to address cultural factors without funding schools.
2) You are full of shit, as usual.

[Marcus Bryant]

To obtain this level of education you must sit through at least 13 years of daily indoctrination in the glories of the state and correct workplace behavior (and if you are so fortunate you can proceed to a higher institution so you can manage those lesser to you in status, and of course serve those on higher rungs in our society) so that you will turn out into the good little state worshiping employee drone you are destined to be. Your life has no meaning save for its contribution to the greater glory of the corporate state.

[rjv]

The implausibilty of your inference struck me. I know Sam a little, and am fairly certain he is not a social darwinist.

For that matter, neither am I.

i am familiar with sam and can not say that i regard him to be a social darwinist and he obviously stated a quick summation of some general ideas, as did you, but i could not help but sense a certain element (however small) of social darwinism in the posts.

[rjv]

The fact that he and I were talking about an educational scheme more suited to people's actual abilities, rather than some cookie-cutter, abstract equalitarianism, should indicate to you our concern to reform rather than abolish education.

how would such "abilities" be determined? who would decide what students are best adapted to a certain environment?

[Winehole23]

Well, you could not help yourself then. At least that is honest.

[Winehole23]

how would such "abilities" be determined? who would decide what students are best adapted to a certain environment?Demonstrated mastery of curriculum, by the student.

[SpurNation]

To obtain this level of education you must sit through at least 13 years of daily indoctrination in the glories of the state and correct workplace behavior (and if you are so fortunate you can proceed to a higher institution so you can manage those lesser to you in status, and of course serve those on higher rungs in our society) so that you will turn out into the good little state worshiping employee drone you are destined to be. Your life has no meaning save for its contribution to the greater glory of the corporate state.

You forgot smiling all the while.

[Marcus Bryant]

do you think that the fundamental character of american pedagogy is one that pinions the individual? not, mind you, the current construct of education in texas, but rather the theoretical construct. because i think that the pragmatic character of "americanizing" a concept is not synonymous with individual enslavement.

Then it's not "education" but rather employment and citizenship indoctrin...er, training and should not be mistaken for anything else.

As for enslavement, that is a loaded term, but I will submit that one can be enslaved without physical chains.

[sam1617]

this sounds like an argument for home schools. no to mention this appears to be a world in a vacuum scenario.

there are many skids who are far better off in schools, with access to tools and equipment they would never have in home, school organizations and extracurricular activities and even in some cases a sense of rule and order.

either you are advocating home schooling, which can be effective only for a certain demographic, or essentially stating that the drop out issue is overstated since high schools are inherently unecessary to begin with.

One could argue that perhaps 35% of kids in SA are better suited to learning on their own :downspin:

In reality, I think that the issue is not that schools are unnecessary or that home schooling is the better option. Its that schools have become incapable of providing solutions acceptable to different groups of the population. If you are going to be working a construction job, why not be able to go to a trade school for the last 2 years of HS? Then you have an applicable certification/degree. If you are going to go to college, why not have a HS degree plan that actually teaches you something and prepares you for college? Essentially, it boils down to our HS education not providing people with an education appropriate to their skills and strengths.

[rjv]

Then it's not "education" but rather employment and citizenship indoctrin...er, training and should not be mistaken for anything else.

As for enslavement, that is a loaded term, but I will submit that one can be enslaved without physical chains.

as for the latter, i think we all know what rosseau quipped on this matter in the "social contract" so this is nothing new.

but my question, about your perspective on the "americanization" of such concepts as education, had more to do with what you regard the pragmatic perspective on pedagogy to be when juxtaposed to your comments on how education serves to metamorphasize us all into some sort of kafkaesque society.

[sam1617]

Demonstrated mastery of curriculum, by the student.

And personal choice, as long as that personal choice is matched by a drive that allows the student to catch up to the requisite level.

If someone wants to be a welder, but is better suited to be a scientist, he can make that choice. If someone wants to be a scientist and is better suited to be a welder, but works hard to learn, then they should have that opportunity too.

[rjv]

Demonstrated mastery of curriculum, by the student.

what curriculum? doesn't someone have to decide what this curriculum is. and at what point is it decided that some are geared towards one curriculum and not another.

we are clearly steering toward more inequity here than the desired result would have been.

[Winehole23]

And personal choice, as long as that personal choice is matched by a drive that allows the student to catch up to the requisite level.Agreed.

[rjv]

One could argue that perhaps 35% of kids in SA are better suited to learning on their own :downspin:

In reality, I think that the issue is not that schools are unnecessary or that home schooling is the better option. Its that schools have become incapable of providing solutions acceptable to different groups of the population. If you are going to be working a construction job, why not be able to go to a trade school for the last 2 years of HS? Then you have an applicable certification/degree. If you are going to go to college, why not have a HS degree plan that actually teaches you something and prepares you for college? Essentially, it boils down to our HS education not providing people with an education appropriate to their skills and strengths.

if this becomes an individual choice, and one that can abet one's skills and talents i would have to say that such an option would be theoretically attractive.

[Marcus Bryant]

There's a lot of money to be made in "education" as it exists in these United States. And there's a lot of money to be made with a gullible public, as well as a significant amount of power to accumulate. No socialist will stand in the way of our life, liberty, and pursuit of corpostate happiness.

[Winehole23]

what curriculum? doesn't someone have to decide what this curriculum is. and at what point is it decided that some are geared towards one curriculum and not another.

we are clearly steering toward more inequity here than the desired result would have been.Steering toward equality is a proven failure. People's aptitudes and their desire to learn are not equal.

As for the question of curriculum, it should provide the basic tools and cultural knowledge required to succeed in learning and life. What people are best suited for, provided they first acquire the essential tools (reading, math, science, history, literature) for self-education, they can determine for themselves.

[Marcus Bryant]

as for the latter, i think we all know what rosseau quipped on this matter in the "social contract" so this is nothing new.

but my question, about your perspective on the "americanization" of such concepts as education, had more to do with what you regard the pragmatic perspective on pedagogy to be when juxtaposed to your comments on how education serves to metamorphasize us all into some sort of kafkaesque society.

Yes, there is a "pragmatic" angle to education which serves interests other than the actual individual receiving that education. Naturally public education in the US has its origins in Americanizing the progeny of newly arrived garlic eating Popists.

[Drachen]

The fact that he and I were talking about an educational scheme more suited to people's actual abilities, rather than some cookie-cutter, abstract equalitarianism, should indicate to you our concern to reform rather than abolish education.


I was really impressed with the German educational structure when I lived there as an exchange student. The basic run down is this (I may be just a tad bit off, it has been 12 years): after primary schooling and 2 years of secondary schooling (kinda like junior high here), a student who wishes to pursue a career in a vocational industry goes to Grundschule, this adds 2 years at the High School level after which they go to vocational school. The next option is Realschule which gives them 4 years at the high school level then they will be ready for some of the lower ranking white collar jobs. The last option is Gymnasium which is 5 years at the high school level, and prepares a student to go to the University. My only issue with this (and I never really asked the question), is how does the child decide? Is it decided for him or her based on grades in their primary education? I don't know. I can, however, see an advantage to letting grades decide what options are available to the student. The parents HAVE to be involved in their child's early education if they have any kind of desire for their children to go to college.

[DarrinS]

There's a lot of money to be made in "education" as it exists in these United States. And there's a lot of money to be made with a gullible public, as well as a significant amount of power to accumulate. No socialist will stand in the way of our life, liberty, and pursuit of corpostate happiness.


There is a certain practicality to getting an education for vocational purposes -- whether that education is obtained through a public institution, a private school, or is obtained by the school of "hard knocks".

[rjv]

Steering toward equality is a proven failure. People's aptitudes and their desire to learn are not equal.

As for the question of curriculum, it should provide the basic tools and cultural knowledge required to succeed in learning and life. What people are best suited for, provided they first acquire the essential tools (reading, math, science, history, literature) for self-education, they can determine for themselves.

do these bolded statements contradict one another or is there a causal relation here that you are suggesting would be remedied by the existence of a self-designated curriculum?

[LnGrrrR]

Of course the primary purpose of public education is to learn how to serve our corporate and state masters. Thanks for pointing that out.

That's the primary TANGIBLE benefit. :lol

[Winehole23]

Education is not a gift of the state. It is essentially self-bestowed. It can't be transmitted to people who don't do the work.

[Marcus Bryant]

I was really impressed with the German educational structure when I lived there as an exchange student. The basic run down is this (I may be just a tad bit off, it has been 12 years): after primary schooling and 2 years of secondary schooling (kinda like junior high here), a student who wishes to pursue a career in a vocational industry goes to Grundschule, this adds 2 years at the High School level after which they go to vocational school. The next option is Realschule which gives them 4 years at the high school level then they will be ready for some of the lower ranking white collar jobs. The last option is Gymnasium which is 5 years at the high school level, and prepares a student to go to the University. My only issue with this (and I never really asked the question), is how does the child decide? Is it decided for him or her based on grades in their primary education? I don't know. I can, however, see an advantage to letting grades decide what options are available to the student. The parents HAVE to be involved in their child's early education if they have any kind of desire for their children to go to college.

Naturally the Krauts would come up with a more efficient method for sorting the wheat from the chaff. Though the fact that you bring up the German education model is appropriate as the origins of US public education lie in Prussia.

[SpurNation]

what curriculum? doesn't someone have to decide what this curriculum is. and at what point is it decided that some are geared towards one curriculum and not another.

we are clearly steering toward more inequity here than the desired result would have been.

I've heard talk amongst friends that are educators by trade. They have heard of programs implemented in Europe that some in the Dept. of Ed. are considering implementing here.



With decades of experience in transnational co-operation, the EU is a natural test-bed for globalisation and an instinctive champion of global governance.


http://ec.europa.eu/education/news/news1673_en.htm

[Winehole23]

I was really impressed with the German educational structure when I lived there as an exchange student. The basic run down is this (I may be just a tad bit off, it has been 12 years): after primary schooling and 2 years of secondary schooling (kinda like junior high here), a student who wishes to pursue a career in a vocational industry goes to Grundschule, this adds 2 years at the High School level after which they go to vocational school. The next option is Realschule which gives them 4 years at the high school level then they will be ready for some of the lower ranking white collar jobs. The last option is Gymnasium which is 5 years at the high school level, and prepares a student to go to the University. My only issue with this (and I never really asked the question), is how does the child decide? Is it decided for him or her based on grades in their primary education? I don't know. I can, however, see an advantage to letting grades decide what options are available to the student. The parents HAVE to be involved in their child's early education if they have any kind of desire for their children to go to college.Americans think it is elitist that there should be more than one educational track, or that college prep ought to be geared to the students have the most proven aptitude for it. Maybe it is elitist.

But along the lines of what Sam was saying, it is almost as if protecting the abstract notion of equality has supplanted developing the aptitudes and abilities of the child in the most appropriate way, as the goal of education.

Education should be a primarily academic enterprise, geared to the students and designed to foster a very high level of attainment. Gearing it toward abstract democratic ideals instead is a perversion, IMO.

[Winehole23]

Double post.

[rjv]

Education is not a gift of the state. It is essentially self-bestowed. It can't be transmitted to people who don't do the work.


sam spelled out his position pretty clearly and i assume you are with him in his line of thinking. but while the overall picture is that of progressive education i still think there are aspects of weeding out those who need to be helped the most in some of your posts. this may be unintended but is still something i would have to have clarified.

[Marcus Bryant]

Americans think it is elitist that there should be more than one educational track, or that college prep ought to be geared to the students have the most proven aptitude for it. Maybe it is elitist.

But along the lines of what Sam was saying, it is almost as if protecting abstract notion of equality has supplanted developing the aptitudes and abilities of the child in the most appropriate way, as the goal of education.

Education should be a primarily academic enterprise, geared to the students and designed to foster a very high level of attainment. Gearing it toward abstract democratic ideals instead is a perversion, IMO.

And of course the pursuit of those ideals was never corrupted to serve anything other than 'the people.'

[Winehole23]

Triple posted. Yikes.

[Marcus Bryant]

And today collegiate education is being democratized to the point of worthlessness.

[elbamba]

At least they don't discuss the declining grades in math and science. We can feel better until those numbers come out, which I am sure they have and someone will post it soon enough.

[Drachen]

Naturally the Krauts would come up with a more efficient method for sorting the wheat from the chaff. Though the fact that you bring up the German education model is appropriate as the origins of US public education lie in Prussia.


Well, that is the thing here, you can see blue collar as chaff, and that is cool I don't have to go on an "everyone is equal" binge. The point, though is that the Grundschuler get the basic education needed to survive (I believe they teach personal finance, etc in the first two years before voc-school). Then they get a quality vocational education. That way a construction worker there will understand what it is they do on their first day on the job, better than someone here who drops out and just shows up on a construction site one day. They will be in a better postion (where it relates to knowledge) to innovate in their position because of this deeper understanding, improving the base knowledge of the industry. Also, it will get rid of these unaccredited "Voc Schools" here that charge $18,000+ for an unaccredited associates degree, or worse yet, a certificate.

I am a HUGE proponent of thinking that everyone should be educated across all disciplines regardless of their ultimate goals (business majors SHOULD take humanities, etc.). If all engineers just went to engineering classes and were taught the same thing, it would create a situation (IMO) where there would be far less innovation, inspiration and the like. Our founding fathers werent just some farmers, but they were educated vigourously in many different subjects, and the same holds true going further back (I will admit that this was a group of only a relative few at a time when education was for the elite). However, just because this is my ideal doesn't mean it is reality. While I can work to change society to get closer to my ideal (if it will accept it), I don't have to be too wise to see that a form of education that promotes my ideals, but doesn't fit reality actually does more harm than good.

[nuclearfm]

And today collegiate education is being democratized to the point of worthlessness.

For the most part. Most Americans end up studying essentially worthless majors. Art, Political "science", etc. All a waste. Most universities have a significant foreign student population in the sciences and engineering. It's an all around culture of failure and laziness.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well, that is the thing here, you can see blue collar as chaff, and that is cool I don't have to go on an "everyone is equal" binge. The point, though is that the Grundschuler get the basic education needed to survive (I believe they teach personal finance, etc in the first two years before voc-school). Then they get a quality vocational education. That way a construction worker there will understand what it is they do on their first day on the job, better than someone here who drops out and just shows up on a construction site one day. They will be in a better postion (where it relates to knowledge) to innovate in their position because of this deeper understanding, improving the base knowledge of the industry. Also, it will get rid of these unaccredited "Voc Schools" here that charge $18,000+ for an unaccredited associates degree, or worse yet, a certificate.

I am a HUGE proponent of thinking that everyone should be educated across all disciplines regardless of their ultimate goals (business majors SHOULD take humanities, etc.). If all engineers just went to engineering classes and were taught the same thing, it would create a situation (IMO) where there would be far less innovation, inspiration and the like. Our founding fathers werent just some farmers, but they were educated vigourously in many different subjects, and the same holds true going further back (I will admit that this was a group of only a relative few at a time when education was for the elite). However, just because this is my ideal doesn't mean it is reality. While I can work to change society to get closer to my ideal (if it will accept it), I don't have to be too wise to see that a form of education that promotes my ideals, but doesn't fit reality actually does more harm than good.

What better way is there to ensure that the blue collared know their role than to run them through 13 years of state and workforce indoctrination? Public education as it operates serves to reinforce the notions of class and subservience in this country.

Something to consider is that back in olden times in the US literacy was nearly universal, at least among whites. The American reality was that class was not permanent, but transitory and education was the responsibility of the individual, aided by the local community.

After a century of public education (and greater centralization of it over the last forty years), basic literacy is waning among the public and class is now seen as permanent, despite the robotic protestations of all good Americans to the contrary.

[Winehole23]

sam spelled out his position pretty clearly and i assume you are with him in his line of thinking. but while the overall picture is that of progressive education i still think there are aspects of weeding out those who need to be helped the most in some of your posts. this may be unintended but is still something i would have to have clarified.They weed themselves out. Or they would, absent social promotion.

There is an element of viewing education as a theraputic/managerial arm of the state in your posts, that I would like to see clarified.

[Winehole23]

For the life of me I don't see what's wrong with saying that academic promotion should be based on actual attainment rather than state administered social meliorism.

[rjv]

Education is not a gift of the state. It is essentially self-bestowed. It can't be transmitted to people who don't do the work.

i actually feel that democracy is intimately connected to education. the question is how much freedom versus how much discipline to use. as the great american philosopher john dewey postulated there should be a strong emphasis on the subjective quality of a student's experience and the necessity for the teacher of understanding the students' past experiences in order to effectively design a sequence of liberating educational experiences to allow the person to fulfil their potential as a member of society

[Marcus Bryant]

For the life of me I don't see what's wrong with saying that academic promotion should be based on actual attainment rather than state administered social meliorism.

Why must education be organized around something so artificial as grade levels? There are plenty of examples of individuals who can ace multiple grade levels in a shorter calendar time, as well as examples of individuals who fail to pass one within a year yet go on to great things.

[Winehole23]

i actually feel that democracy is intimately connected to education. the question is how much freedom versus how much discipline to use.I do too. Our current system fails miserably in this regard.


as the great american philosopher john dewey postulated there should be a strong emphasis on the subjective quality of a student's experience and the necessity for the teacher of understanding the students' past experiences in order to effectively design a sequence of liberating educational experiences to allow the person to fulfil their potential as a member of societyIn my opinion, this view of education is a big reason why it has failed. The behavioral steering, er, "subjective development" of the student has replaced mastery of curriculum as the goal.

[rjv]

They weed themselves out. Or they would, absent social promotion.

There is an element of viewing education as a theraputic/managerial arm of the state in your posts, that I would like to see clarified.

my father was an educator in some of the poorest and most crime riddled areas of philadelphia and san antonio. he often told me of children who had parents in prison, on drugs and/or siblings and friends in organized crime or gangs. for them, education was not really the black and white simplicity of assimilation into the mainstream by means of effort and effort alone.

[SpurNation]

Why "aid" oneself to higher education if one is complacent to government handouts and the segregated life associated to the environment in which they live?

[Marcus Bryant]

i actually feel that democracy is intimately connected to education. the question is how much freedom versus how much discipline to use. as the great american philosopher john dewey postulated there should be a strong emphasis on the subjective quality of a student's experience and the necessity for the teacher of understanding the students' past experiences in order to effectively design a sequence of liberating educational experiences to allow the person to fulfil their potential as a member of society

Dewey can go fuck himself.

[Winehole23]

Why must education be organized around something so artificial as grade levels? There are plenty of examples of individuals who can ace multiple grade levels in a shorter calendar time, as well as examples of individuals who fail to pass one within a year yet go on to great things.Age grade stratification is a barbarity better suited to tribalism, not related to educational acheivement. I agree wholeheartedly. That is why I keep insisting that mastering curriculum is the central feature of education. This can happen at the pace determined by the student's drive and abilities, not the artificial timetables of the institution.

[jman3000]

We need to get away from this assumption that everybody is equal.

Some people are just stupid fucks and need to be told so.

[Winehole23]

my father was an educator in some of the poorest and most crime riddled areas of philadelphia and san antonio. he often told me of children who had parents in prison, on drugs and/or siblings and friends in organized crime or gangs. for them, education was not really the black and white simplicity of assimilation into the mainstream by means of effort and effort alone.What was it then?

And you're the only one talking about the aim of mainstream assimilation. I think. Was I talking about this?

[rjv]

In my opinion, this view of education is a big reason why it has failed. The behavioral steering, er, "subjective development" of the student has replaced mastery of curriculum as the goal.

not sure what you are saying "failed" about dewey's pedagogical theories. the experimental school at the university of chicago is one place that has implemented his beliefs on teaching has been in existence for over a century now and has earned a remarkable international reputation for teaching.

http://ucls.uchicago.edu/about/character.shtml

[Drachen]

What better way is there to ensure that the blue collared know their role than to run them through 13 years of state and workforce indoctrination? Public education as it operates serves to reinforce the notions of class and subservience in this country.

Something to consider is that back in olden times in the US literacy was nearly universal, at least among whites. The American reality was that class was not permanent, but transitory and education was the responsibility of the individual, aided by the local community.

After a century of public education (and greater centralization of it over the last forty years), basic literacy is waning among the public and class is now seen as permanent, despite the robotic protestations of all good Americans to the contrary.

You are absolutely right, those that chose to go the blue collared route would absolutely know their role. They would be educated on the ins, outs, and subtle nuances of their field, before they enter their position. I am glad you are seeing this model as an exemplarary one. Also, one minor correction, those who choose to go the route of the vocational worker only have 12 years of public education, not 13.

As to your second paragraph, I don't see any difference between what I am proposing and the story you told. Every person has equal opportunity to acheive because they all start at the same type of school. It is their responsibility, as well as that of their parents', and the "local community" to ensure that they go to the school of their choosing. So this model, once again, does exactly what you want it to do.

Maybe I had miscalculated in thinking that you were initially using sarcasm to disagree with my post, as you have done nothing but provide proof that such a system can work very well.

[rjv]

Dewey can go fuck himself.

i don't think he was hermaphoditic

[Winehole23]

not sure what you are saying "failed" about dewey's pedagogical theories. the experimental school at the university of chicago is one place that has implemented his beliefs on teaching has been in existence for over a century now and has earned a remarkable international reputation for teaching.

http://ucls.uchicago.edu/about/character.shtmlI was referring to primary education. Surely Dewey has influenced that too, and perhaps not all to the good.

[Winehole23]

The whole focus on the child's self-esteem is alien to education. Even worse, in very many places it has replaced it.

[rjv]

What was it then?

And you're the only one talking about the aim of mainstream assimilation. I think. Was I talking about this?

that is, effort alone or aptitude tests do not alone stand as a testament to a student's attitude or potential when it comes to education.

[rjv]

I was referring to primary education. Surely Dewey has influenced that too, and perhaps not all to the good.

perhaps you should actually go to the link i provided. it is about primary education.

[Winehole23]

that is, effort alone or aptitude tests do not alone stand as a testament to a student's attitude or potential when it comes to education.Sure. Effort and institutional measurement aren't everything. But literacy, logic, math and writing ability can't be faked. It's not too much to ask that students master and demonstrate these. In fact it's the aim of schooling.

Or at least, I thought it was.

[Winehole23]

perhaps you should actually go to the link i provided. it is about primary education.So there's a hothouse flower based on Dewey. That doesn't negate the abysmal failure of Deweyite ideas in public education, which relates more specifically to the OP.

It also doesn't hurt that the school you cite has a pretty exacting curriculum, and presumably, highly competent teachers.

[Winehole23]

Not to say, highly apt and motivated students.

[rjv]

So there's a hothouse flower based on Dewey. That doesn't negate the abysmal failure of Deweyite ideas in public education, which relates more specifically to the OP.

It also doesn't hurt that the school you cite has a pretty exacting curriculum, and presumably, highly competent teachers.

and that is why the dewey paradigm will never work in this state. poor pay for teachers, schools that can not stay open, a government that can not decide how to fund our schools. taxpayers who bitch about government funding of child care and after school programs...

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

a poorly funded school can result in an overall level of malaise at all levels. edgewood v. kirby was all about such a dilemma, one that still exists today.

[sam1617]

sam spelled out his position pretty clearly and i assume you are with him in his line of thinking. but while the overall picture is that of progressive education i still think there are aspects of weeding out those who need to be helped the most in some of your posts. this may be unintended but is still something i would have to have clarified.

Remember, aptitude plus desire. If you have the desire to study a certain subject, that your aptitude may be lacking in, then you should be provided a reasonable amount of support. However, in some cases, that support may be "Here is a library card and google, go learn."

And yes, there would be some weeding out of the "chaff" as someone put it earlier. There are some who have no aptitude, and no desire, and I have no issue with not wasting time and money on them past a certain point. Now, what that certain point is, thats the tough part, isn't it?

[Winehole23]

do these bolded statements contradict one another or is there a causal relation here that you are suggesting would be remedied by the existence of a self-designated curriculum?Neither.

The first was an observation, the second my response to your suggestion that the state has to determine what students are best suited to. Through their own ambition and abilities, students do this themselves.

Education is always in essence self-education. The student does the work, demonstrates what he knows and applies himself wherever he will.

[Winehole23]

and that is why the dewey paradigm will never work in this state. poor pay for teachers, schools that can not stay open, a government that can not decide how to fund our schools. taxpayers who bitch about government funding of child care and after school programs...

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

a poorly funded school can result in an overall level of malaise at all levels. edgewood v. kirby was all about such a dilemma, one that still exists today.I doubt that funding explains everything. We spend way more on schools and get worse results than we did 50 years ago. Throwing more money at schools isn't a proven way to improve performance. Our public school system is living proof of that.

[sam1617]

and that is why the dewey paradigm will never work in this state. poor pay for teachers, schools that can not stay open, a government that can not decide how to fund our schools. taxpayers who bitch about government funding of child care and after school programs...

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge.

what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.

a poorly funded school can result in an overall level of malaise at all levels. edgewood v. kirby was all about such a dilemma, one that still exists today.

So whats wrong with school vouchers? Schools get a minimum dollar amount from the government, then for each student enrolled, get some other amount. Allow students the freedom to enroll wherever. Schools that are able to attract many students will have more income, hopefully allowing better teachers, curriculum, whatever. A specialized school with high standards could also attach a surcharge to the money from the voucher (unless its a religious school, church and state and all that), so the "elite" can still be elitists, especially if there is a scholarship program available for those with spectacular ability, but less than spectacular finances.

If you want to go to a football factory, go, get your low education degree, but high football degree, and good luck in life. If you want to be a doctor, go to a school that specializes in cranking out doctors. If you are an "inner city kid" and can't go to anywhere but your local school, guess what, its going to have lots of "inner city kids" going too, which means its going to have lots of money from its vouchers, and be able to hire enough educators, which it can't do know.

I'm not going to claim this doesn't have faults, it does, but it seems far more effective than educating to the lowest common denominator like it feels like public schools do now.

[Winehole23]

and the most weeded out are the very students that would benefit most from a program that is geared towards evaluating experience as much as knowledge. Perhaps this is necessary. I don't see what it has to do with education.


what you may regard as a lack of motivation is more than some perfunctory assumption about the character of an individual student or even a body of students in a specific area.My view on this is pragmatic. Students can either cut the mustard or they can't. I don't make any assumptions about their character based on their performance. A chaotic home life, living in a bad neighborhood, psychological trauma -- any number of subjective factors can affect the performance of otherwise apt students of good character. But I don't think it is the place of schools to fix these problems.

[NFGIII]

Education is the single biggest domestic problem we have going forward in this country and most people have no clue. Those numbers are much worse at many of the cities schools. You remove some of the Northside and NEISD schools and you're looking at schools that barely graduate one out of every 2 students.

Agreed - it is our biggest problem. An significantly uneducated workforce will only lead to a declining nation, especially if you view it from a functional standpoint with technology being the standard by which to judge how your society will either move forward or not. A society must educate their citizens to be capable of understanding how to use it. We need to get our people to a basic level of competence - min. requirement - when they leave HS and then they can choose to either enter the workforce and be productive or continue to a higher level of education.


President Obama cannot change this or any president. The parents have too.

They are the key IMHO. The first 6 years of life are crucial in shaping the attitudes and perspectives of children. After that then it becomes much harder to change their original concepts about life..etc.


I remember when I was in high school if a student didn't really have any ambition and was comfortable not making anything of themselves, they'd just drop out and take a job in the construction industry. Down here there's probably 1 or 2 degrees of seperation between anybody and somebody who owns or works for a construction crew.

Dropping out might have worked in the past... but I reckon that this economy will make students take a second look at dropping out because that 100% shot at a construction job isn't quite 100% anymore.

I'd say it was 1) Construction jobs 2) Parent's owned a company (usually construction oriented) 3) They were fuck ups and were too stupid/lazy/fucks wads to even do well with an easy as hell curriculum at a public school. 4) Drugs

I think today manual labor really isn't the option it used to be considering the level of technology present now. And that level will only increase leaving many who can't/didn't/wont keep pace falling further and further behind.


The conversion of schools from places of education to administrative facilities for low security detention and behavior modification has something to do with it too. Declining rates of literacy and the declining ratio of teachers to administrators tell the story. We've never spent more, and gotten less, from our schools.

I was at a lecture by Dan Morales - former Tx AG - back in the 80's and he said pretty much the same thing then. To him it seemed that the parents expected the schools to baby sit and teach their children how to be competent and law abiding citizens. He thought that had to do with the fact that in most families both parents worked and felt like they didn't have the time and energy to do that.

Anyway doesn't the USA spend the most or pretty near that per student yet is ranked like in the bottom two slots among the industrialized nations?
That in and of itself should clue us into the fact we're not getting the returns needed to keep pace with other nations. Over several generations this country will pay the price for that.


I think he was saying something in the middle: that not everyone is well suited to go to college. Basic education is of course a necessity, but beyond primary education it would make sense for there to be more vo-tech options for those who do not adapt well to a more academic environment.

And I absolutely agree with Sam's point that self-education is the kernel of learning.

The necessity of universal education is vastly overstated. Any suitably diligent, motivated, persevering person can attain mastery of anything he wishes.

But aren't they a dying breed in this country? It sure seems that way to me. I see many in the younger generations possessing lesser ambition and
probleming solving abilities. If they can't get it right away then they go on to other things that are easier to accomplish. This doesn't mean all but a significant % which doesn't bode well for our country down the road.


I was really impressed with the German educational structure when I lived there as an exchange student. The basic run down is this (I may be just a tad bit off, it has been 12 years): after primary schooling and 2 years of secondary schooling (kinda like junior high here), a student who wishes to pursue a career in a vocational industry goes to Grundschule, this adds 2 years at the High School level after which they go to vocational school. The next option is Realschule which gives them 4 years at the high school level then they will be ready for some of the lower ranking white collar jobs. The last option is Gymnasium which is 5 years at the high school level, and prepares a student to go to the University. My only issue with this (and I never really asked the question), is how does the child decide? Is it decided for him or her based on grades in their primary education? I don't know. I can, however, see an advantage to letting grades decide what options are available to the student. The parents HAVE to be involved in their child's early education if they have any kind of desire for their children to go to college.

I lived in England and they do pretty much the same thing - same in Japan. It seems some countries have figured out that there is a significant % of students who are either not ready for a higher education or simply not capable of one. Better to find them sooner rather than later and get them into something they like and are productive at for society's benefit.

[rjv]

So whats wrong with school vouchers? Schools get a minimum dollar amount from the government, then for each student enrolled, get some other amount. Allow students the freedom to enroll wherever. Schools that are able to attract many students will have more income, hopefully allowing better teachers, curriculum, whatever. A specialized school with high standards could also attach a surcharge to the money from the voucher (unless its a religious school, church and state and all that), so the "elite" can still be elitists, especially if there is a scholarship program available for those with spectacular ability, but less than spectacular finances.

If you want to go to a football factory, go, get your low education degree, but high football degree, and good luck in life. If you want to be a doctor, go to a school that specializes in cranking out doctors. If you are an "inner city kid" and can't go to anywhere but your local school, guess what, its going to have lots of "inner city kids" going too, which means its going to have lots of money from its vouchers, and be able to hire enough educators, which it can't do know.

and i guess it would help to know if you are referring to private schools in this example as that makes a substantial difference when it comes to vouchers.

I'm not going to claim this doesn't have faults, it does, but it seems far more effective than educating to the lowest common denominator like it feels like public schools do now.

there are some pros to the voucher system and obviously some cons. inner city schools will still have the problems of the inner city, especially gangs and violence but they exist anyway. but a higher salary alone will not be enough to recruit a teacher to an inner city school. a dedicated teacher will want a support system in place to deal with the issues students would face at such schools.

[rjv]

Perhaps this is necessary. I don't see what it has to do with education.

My view on this is pragmatic. Students can either cut the mustard or they can't. I don't make any assumptions about their character based on their performance. A chaotic home life, living in a bad neighborhood, psychological trauma -- any number of subjective factors can affect the performance of otherwise apt students of good character. But I don't think it is the place of schools to fix these problems.


well we clearly disagree in this regard. i can personally state that my father made a difference in many student's lives by thinking outside the box when it came to notions of what it was a school's responsibility to address.

[rjv]

But aren't they a dying breed in this country? It sure seems that way to me. I see many in the younger generations possessing lesser ambition and
probleming solving abilities. If they can't get it right away then they go on to other things that are easier to accomplish. This doesn't mean all but a significant % which doesn't bode well for our country down the road.


the sad thing is that some of the most motivated to succeed are the ones we make more of an effort to create obstacles for. they are that much stronger for getting past the hurdles but there are too many that do not get through the cracks.

[Winehole23]

well we clearly disagree in this regard. i can personally state that my father made a difference in many student's lives by thinking outside the box when it came to notions of what it was a school's responsibility to address.I have no doubt he did, and no doubt that is another pragmatic view of education. I don't really take issue with the personal, conscientious deeds of a teacher so much as the idea of a paternalistic school bureaucracy that aims at the same ends. Social betterment shouldn't be a school function IMO. if individual teachers want to do whatever they can to help their students "outside of the box", more power to them.

[sam1617]

well we clearly disagree in this regard. i can personally state that my father made a difference in many student's lives by thinking outside the box when it came to notions of what it was a school's responsibility to address.

Your father worked outside of the box you stated. He went beyond his responsibility as a teacher to reach the kids, this makes him a good man, and a better teacher, but you can't expect every teacher/administrator to be able to do that, or to want to do that. There just aren't enough good people in the world to do that. Rather than have schools fix the home, mental, physical, or financial issues, why not have community organizations, charitable foundations, churches, or whatever fill that role?

I'm not saying that kids can't be reached, I'm saying that kids can't always be reached by a school. The schools and teachers have too much other responsibility to always give enough attention to a kid in the amount necessary.

[NFGIII]

The phrase "dumbing sown of America" which I first heard back in the 80's is finally coming to fruition IMHO. Read the below paste and see how you do. Interesting stuff.

Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of us have passed the 8th grade in 1895?
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina , Kansas, USA . It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina, and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina , KS - 1895
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of 'lie,'' play,' and 'run.'
5. Define case; illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time,1 hour 15 minutes)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. Deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. Wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3,942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1,050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. of coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft.. Long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton , Bell , Lincoln , Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u.'
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane , vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas ?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Des cribe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete.

Gives the saying 'he only had an 8th grade education' a whole new meaning, doesn't it?! Also shows you how poor our education system has become and, NO, I don't have the answers!

[Winehole23]

Scientific, modern ideas screwed up education in the US. Maybe irreparably.

[rjv]

Your father worked outside of the box you stated. He went beyond his responsibility as a teacher to reach the kids, this makes him a good man, and a better teacher, but you can't expect every teacher/administrator to be able to do that, or to want to do that. There just aren't enough good people in the world to do that. Rather than have schools fix the home, mental, physical, or financial issues, why not have community organizations, charitable foundations, churches, or whatever fill that role?

I'm not saying that kids can't be reached, I'm saying that kids can't always be reached by a school. The schools and teachers have too much other responsibility to always give enough attention to a kid in the amount necessary.


they try but it is like putting a band aid on a torn artery. i know we differ on this but i think it is necessary to fund certain social programs so as to assist in the success of a demographic that obviously struggles for success, as our city drop out rate clearly indicates.

[rjv]

Scientific, modern ideas screwed up education in the US. Maybe irreparably.

is this intended as sarcasm or is there more to this observation?

[Winehole23]

No sarcasm intended. My main man on this question is John Taylor Gatto (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm).

Specifically, chapters 2, 8 and 9.b

(link fixed.)

[nuclearfm]

Scientific, modern ideas screwed up education in the US. Maybe irreparably.

I agree with that a lot. One of the culprits has to be the "online degree" . Heck just the internet has to take some blame.

Fuck Modernity. I want to ride a horse and beat my wife.

[Winehole23]

Fuck Modernity. I want to ride a horse and beat my wife.Suit yourself.

Meanwhile, modernity fucks us.

[rjv]

No sarcasm intended. My main man on this question is John Taylor Gatto (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm).

(link fixed.)


interesting. and he is an advocate for home schooling so it seems.

[Winehole23]

Sure. Why not? It's not just for fundamentalists and crunchy granola hippies anymore.

[sam1617]

they try but it is like putting a band aid on a torn artery. i know we differ on this but i think it is necessary to fund certain social programs so as to assist in the success of a demographic that obviously struggles for success, as our city drop out rate clearly indicates.

And if they try and fail, being the people on the ground, and most likely to know the issues, what hope does an outside government agency have of coming in and fixing the issues?

I know it sounds cliche to say that it takes a community to raise a child, but that is an accurate statement IMO. Government organizations are not an adequate replacement for community organizations, at least in my opinion.

[Marcus Bryant]

The phrase "dumbing sown of America" which I first heard back in the 80's is finally coming to fruition IMHO. Read the below paste and see how you do. Interesting stuff.


http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp

...but I understand.

I believe the way to critique the result of public education today is in the context of the amount spent relative to what is achieved. Back in olden times in the one room wooden schoolhouse without any grades, teachers without any certifications or undergraduate education for that matter, no principals or other non-teaching staff, near universal literacy was obtained for much less of the cost in real dollars than what is spent today.

For the amount spent today we should have an exceptionally well educated citizenry. But we don't. And we lag much of the first world in educational achievement among our young. Our public K-12 schools perform so abysmally yet the world fills many of the postgraduate programs in American universities. Save for the professional schools. Everyone wants to be a lawyer but no one wants to be a scientist.

[Marcus Bryant]

No sarcasm intended. My main man on this question is John Taylor Gatto (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm).

Specifically, chapters 2, 8 and 9.b

(link fixed.)

:tu

[DarrinS]

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp

...but I understand.

I believe the way to critique the result of public education today is in the context of the amount spent relative to what is achieved. Back in olden times in the one room wooden schoolhouse without any grades, teachers without any certifications or undergraduate education for that matter, no principals or other non-teaching staff, near universal literacy was obtained for much less of the cost in real dollars than what is spent today.



^This is a great point.




For the amount spent today we should have an exceptionally well educated citizenry. But we don't. And we lag much of the first world in educational achievement among our young. Our public K-12 schools perform so abysmally yet the world fills many of the postgraduate programs in American universities. Save for the professional schools. Everyone wants to be a lawyer but no one wants to be a scientist.


When I went to college back in the early 90's, almost 100% of my professors were from a different country. If you go out to UTSA these days, many, if not most, of the students are foreign. You feel like you've stepped into a different country.

[Marcus Bryant]

As for the cultural discussion earlier in the thread and its connection to poor academic achievement, I submit that it is to be expected in a debt ridden country which expects instant gratification and is beholden to rampant consumerism. A country in which a corporation has legal standing as a person, including Bill of Rights protections.

It is not surprising that we would see poor academic performance and a high dropout rate in this country among the poor and those families without much of a history of academic attainments. What I suspect is that during the next 20 years or so we will see a complete breakdown among the middle class in academic performance. Public education, as designed, is geared towards the mean. That mean has steadily declined over the last century, and has so noticeably since the 1960s, as federal involvement in public education has ramped up.

We really are headed towards two permanent Americas (Johnny Edwards was right about something). The large mass of stupefied gullible individuals continually in debt and working for stagnant or declining pay, and an elite group enjoying the fruits of a liberal education and a still somewhat free society.

[Hooks]

I just graduated from Harlandale High School, and freshman year we had 600+ people in our class.

When I graduated earlier this year we only had 330 seniors left.

[sabar]

I'm with MB. The American education system is a failure that indoctrinates students in ways that they will naturally resist. They are destroyed and demeaned for not going with the system and thrown into a cycle of dumbness, where they will hold a low wage job and breed offspring into their world, doomed to follow the same path. The state is far too ingrained into the system to ever get any better results from it. Not that they want to, because they can promise their uneducated constituents free handouts and ensure they get re-elected indefinitely through this sick cycle. I witnessed first hand San Antonio kids that didn't care about math or science. They could be a great metal worker, but that won't graduate you since you need knowledge in totally arbitrary fields in order to ascend to the next level of the same treadmill. One bad teacher that doesn't teach the fundamentals of something screws up a kid's life. But the teacher doesn't care, as they need to get through as many children as possible, like cows to the slaughter. Actual teaching isn't important.

The first step is getting rid of the epic failure that is the Dept of Education and its legacy of No Child Left Behind. This system only creates a uneducated majority that votes for their own self-destruction and expansion. It won't be long before we have a real idiocracy with a representative democracy ruled by a stupid majority, assuming we already don't.

[MannyIsGod]

I'd ask for a link, but since your assertion there is 100% content-free bureaucratic boilerplate, there's no point.


:rolleyes That's funny, I live in a world where liberal activists are convinced that the only way the correct this is to come up with yet another government education reform plan to try, and yet more money to throw at the problem, preferrably with yet another all-expenses-paid trip to some small, homogeneous Scandinavian country to learn solutions that don't work here any better than the last 2,000 times they were tried.

Two possibilities:
1) Through Spurstalk.com, we are able to communicate across alternate universes, and you live in one where the government thinks the only solution is to address cultural factors without funding schools.
2) You are full of shit, as usual.

For as smart as you are ES, you sure do like generalizations and trying to make people fit your molds. Its funny you say I'm the one thats full of shit because over the past six months I've seen you make post after post where you rail against some fictional liberal who's arguments are never present until you present them.

You forgot option #3: Your senility is kicking in.

[rjv]

As for the cultural discussion earlier in the thread and its connection to poor academic achievement, I submit that it is to be expected in a debt ridden country which expects instant gratification and is beholden to rampant consumerism. A country in which a corporation has legal standing as a person, including Bill of Rights protections.

It is not surprising that we would see poor academic performance and a high dropout rate in this country among the poor and those families without much of a history of academic attainments. What I suspect is that during the next 20 years or so we will see a complete breakdown among the middle class in academic performance. Public education, as designed, is geared towards the mean. That mean has steadily declined over the last century, and has so noticeably since the 1960s, as federal involvement in public education has ramped up.

We really are headed towards two permanent Americas (Johnny Edwards was right about something). The large mass of stupefied gullible individuals continually in debt and working for stagnant or declining pay, and an elite group enjoying the fruits of a liberal education and a still somewhat free society.

well at least the large influx of mexican immigrants and presence of first generation mexican americans will present us a large faction of society with a strong work ethic and the ability to make a manifold gasket out of a cereal box. they can save america.

[rjv]

The American education system is a failure that indoctrinates students in ways that they will naturally resist. They are destroyed and demeaned for not going with the system and thrown into a cycle of dumbness, where they will hold a low wage job and breed offspring into their world, doomed to follow the same path. The state is far too ingrained into the system to ever get any better results from it. Not that they want to, because they can promise their uneducated constituents free handouts and ensure they get re-elected indefinitely through this sick cycle. I witnessed first hand San Antonio kids that didn't care about math or science. They could be a great metal worker, but that won't graduate you since you need knowledge in totally arbitrary fields in order to ascend to the next level of the same treadmill.

of course, a lot of these kids just transition on to the military.

[DarkReign]

You think SA's grad rates are bad?!

:lmao

Its pretty deep in this link (http://www.clickondetroit.com/education/15759336/detail.html), but in April of 2008 only 24% of Detroit student graduated.

To be honest, I am little surprised by the difference in opinion being displayed in this thread. There is nothing inherently public about education. Those two terms are mutally exclusive.

That they have been combined and socially accepted (apparently) is an affront in and of itself.

I only wish I had parents or the perspective to grasp then what I know now about the merits of school as it is interpreted in our society. Education is supremely important, if not the most important aspect of life. School is worthless and equates to a government propoganda machine. Exceptions abound, I'm sure, but again the two terms are mutually exclusive.

School != Education

The only involvement the government should have in education are laws that easily allow communities to setup an agreed education system and to also allow for those communities to be able to easily setup payment with their customers (ie payroll deductions or whatever).

Beyond that, their involvement is nothing more than propoganda. How to sit, how to walk, how to talk, how to respect authority and cow-tow to it, unrealistic punishment for minor deviations, morality indoctrination, etc.

What may seem benign or even common is evidence to the reins of this horse being lost a loooong time ago with no means to reaquire our captaincy.

Thus the reason I have no children and never will. This world, this life is not ours, its your authority's. I preach about it, I complain, I write/email my representatives....doesnt matter. For every email from DR, there are 10 demanding the exact opposite of me. I am outnumbered, I have been usurped of any personal preference long before I was born.

Which is why the continual decline and ultimate fall is the only hope. Let there be "Two Americas" as ES puts it, it is the only way.

[DarkReign]

The culture of poverty is the problem.

Bam.

Poverty is the reason for just about everyone of society's domestic ills. Almost wholesale.

Giving them money is not the answer, forcing them into public (re)education is not the answer.

There is an old saying that applies to everything, everywhere...

You cant fix stupid.

[LnGrrrR]

of course, a lot of these kids just transition on to the military.

<--- was one of those kids

[SA210]

We really are headed towards two permanent Americas (Johnny Edwards was right about something).

[LnGrrrR]

Bam.

Poverty is the reason for just about everyone of society's domestic ills. Almost wholesale.

Giving them money is not the answer, forcing them into public (re)education is not the answer.

There is an old saying that applies to everything, everywhere...

You cant fix stupid.

Are you equating poverty=stupidity? Or is this supposed to be somwhat of a Venn diagram statement, where not all poor people are stupid, but all stupid people are poor?

[DarkReign]

Are you equating poverty=stupidity? Or is this supposed to be somwhat of a Venn diagram statement, where not all poor people are stupid, but all stupid people are poor?

Hmm, interesting relationship and one I never thought about, to be honest.

I dont mean to say poverty = stupidity, not at all. What I do mean to say is that poverty begets poverty in probably 90% of the cases. Ignorance breeds ignorance, dependance breeds dependance.

Its systemic of poverty that it propogates itself. Breaking the trend is not possible, not then, not now, not ever. As long as there are mechanisms for poverty to sustain itself, it will always be a growing problem instead of a static one.

Point is, you cant fix stupid. The lazy, the Welfare queens, the SS kids and their too-damn-early progeny will only serve the means to extend the problem, not remedy it.

For every heart-warming story about citizens in a city like Detroit (thats PovertyWorld for those who dont know) coming together and trying to better their neighborhoods/school systems/streets, there are literally 30 stories of homicide, rape and robbery.

Cool stat: Did you know 70% of the murders in Detroit go unsolved?

seventy-fucking-percent.

I address this next part to the anonymous You...

If you tree-huggers think society has some golden touch or even a modicum of decency, or that poverty is somehow a disease that society can help eradicate and that the majority of people inside the walls of indecency are in fact decent, I present to you Detroit.

There has been no social experiment in the history of this country that even closely resembles the scale and scope of Detroit. The city was given, nay, abandoned to poverty by decent folks. People, nearing almost 1 million, fled for 'burbs to get away from poverty's stain in all things social (mostly political).

20-30 years later, look what the virtuous residents of poverty have done for themselves. A city of open hostility to any non-resident, minority or otherwise. A city with the single most corrupt political scene in the country, period (yes, it trumps Washington DC). A completely broken, unproductive education system that was raided for billions of taxpayer dollars by people appointed by those aforementioned corrupt politicians that only graduates 24% of its students (in a city with the lowest expectations in education you could even dream). A city tax system that generates most of its revenue not from residents of Detroit (30% unemployment), but from nonresidents who only work in the city. A former mayor who had to be federally indicted before actually resigning for numerous private dealings with public money, a suspected accessory to murder (Tamara Greene, aka Strawberry) that had to sign a plea deal that said he cannot run for public office for at least 10 years (iirc) because he was extremely popular with the residents of Detroit and would have been re-fucking-elected if given half a chance to run.

This is the same city sees any partnership with the suburbs to make the city better as an affront to their race. A city which openly despises anything from the suburbs and its people, even though those suburbs constitute almost their entire tax revenue.

To be wholly honest, I have seen poverty have the power to govern and to be self-determinate...wholesale independance.

They suck at it. They cant say or do what they need, but they know what they want. To them, thats good enough...so long as Federal money keeps rolling in, it'll work on makeshift parts, a deteriorating infrastructure and entire areas of the city being literally (I mean literally) abandoned.

I could link stories from just this week in the News around here, but thats just an excercise in futility.

You want your country to be anything like Detroit?

If you do, go ahead and even fucking consider what poverty needs or wants. My advice, tell them to get a fucking job and become productive for themselves, not for your city of residence or your country. Until then, STFU and starve already.

[DarkReign]

Poverty is society's problem, but poverty is a problem without a remedy.

There is no fucking remedy.

Sure, I would like to believe there is and have faith that we can do something about it.

But I also can believe in unicorns and have faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...doesnt make those ridiculous ideas anymore credible than a cure-all for poverty.

[DarkReign]

You know, re-reading that rant, I am starting to understand the goal of our government.

Detroit in every state, in every community. Entire populations filled to the brim with ignorant, uneducated worker-bees all vying for the same $10 an hour job who universally despise anything that could be perceived as better than their lot in life.

Not only embracing their own ignorance, but demanding that same ignorance from their communities...with happening across the country.

Scary and kind of funny at the same time.

[Marcus Bryant]

You know, re-reading that rant, I am starting to understand the goal of our government.

Detroit in every state, in every community. Entire populations filled to the brim with ignorant, uneducated worker-bees all vying for the same $10 an hour job who universally despise anything that could be perceived as better than their lot in life.

Not only embracing their own ignorance, but demanding that same ignorance from their communities...with happening across the country.

Scary and kind of funny at the same time.


Yet fiercely loyal to state and shop.

[Marcus Bryant]

Would you say this sounds like something designed in the late 19th/early 20th century?

[DarkReign]

Would you say this sounds like something designed in the late 19th/early 20th century?

Yes, especially at that time when socialism didnt have the stigma attached to it that it does today. Let me explain...

Sure, Americans of the time knew (or at least, I think they knew) about Russia's internal problems (regular famine, social unrest, etc) and I would think they didnt see much problem with the rise of Lenin and his socialistic ideals.

But I am quite sure they were shocked into reality with the rise of Stalin, who took Lenin's mandate to something beyond only to become something entirely different (dictatorship).

I only mention socialism in this answer because socialistic governments (like communism, a dictatorial derivative thereof) rely on the loyalty and patriotism of its inhabitants.

There are any number of ways to go about fostering this loyalty. USSR chose death and exile, Italy the same, Germany gave new meaning to "conform or die".

Whereas, I think in a typical democracy/republic, the need for that loyalty is the same (if not moreso), but the means to achieve it are much different and maybe even worse, in retrospect. Please do not interpret that as a sympathy to socialism, but more as a general observation about the difference.

For example, with a dictatorial regime, the tyranny is blatantly obvious. Very overt, swift and decisive. You know your limits, you know youre being ruled, you know youre being fed propoganda, you know your kids are being indoctrinated, etc. You [B]know youre being duped, you just cant do anything about it without riskig your life.

In contrast, in a democracy where power is slowly being concentrated with the federal government (ie late 19th/early 20th century) and that the illusion of citizen control must be maintained (unlike a Red state), in order to maintain control over people and property, your methods of control must be more subtle...and maybe even from a humanity standpoint, worse in the long run.

The reason I say that is because a dictator cannot last forever. Inevitably, they have to relent, cede power or fall all together. Such is the way. Not so in a Democracy. Power can be carried on because the mandate isnt in the sole possession of just one person and by design, it never can be (regardless of what party system is being used). Therefore, in order to continue to strive for longterm goals all the while maintaining necessary levels of loyalty and fervent support, the people must be either distracted, indoctrinated or both.

IMO, we're both. I am just as guilty. If you have an enlightened populace full of educated people with knowledge of history, government and new sources of information, then it stands to reason no one power can stand on its own for very long under the scrutiny of such a populace.

Ah, but alas! Here is where the opportunity lies. Centralizing power something short of socialism in the wake of a crisis (WW1, Depression, WW2 which all lead to some form of Federal (ie Executive) control over aspects of society that would have seemed like heresy before) allows the Federal government to advance agendas for its own interest in foreign affairs, by controlling only the important factors of a society.

1. Money
2. Education
3. Wealth Distribution (different than money)

People knew what they were doing when they were doing it. Nothing done at the Federal level has ever been crafted with the best intentions when it comes to domestic affairs. There are only a few instances where the Federal government even needs to enforce domestic law (issues between States, interstate travel, interstate crimes and border patrol) but this traditional restraint needed to be cast off in an effort to consolidate national control of the populace.

With a new structure of government influence in place in less than 30 years, the effects of that sweeping change were immediate. Federal government mandated policy became the norm in domestic life, from totally irrelevant (Prohibition, Drug Wars) to altruistic (Civil Rights Bill, Worker's rights) and everything in between. The people started to look to Washington for answers to local problems.

As soon as that transition in the social conscience happened (arbitrarily circa 1960-ish), coupled with the federal mandated curriculum in schools across the country, the vine was ripe for picking. The government had its people by the balls and if you keep them dumb enough to never realize it, or even better they start expecting it and denouncing those who do not agree, well...you get what we have.

Something just short of an oligarchy with limited options for the populace to change anything by their admittedly low means to do so. Voting doesnt mean shit anymore. Party hasnt meant shit in decades. Sure, you can vote Republican/Democrat because they speak to your inner moral convictions, but that is about the extent of their use for you. Divide (by irrelevant moral wedge issues like gay marriage/abortion/etc) and conquer (nothing of import changes regardless of party...youre still paying taxes through your ass, youre still at war, you still have no meaningful oversight over money you put into a bank and your tax dollars will be used for anything that garners more votes, no matter how frivolous).

Invariably, the American public has been indoctrinated with designed ignorance. Youre supposed to be a single issue voter, youre supposed to despise those who have it better than you, youre supposed to support your government no matter what, youre supposed to understand the global marketplace and accept it as an inevitable fact, etc.

Youre supposed to be a mindless drone who accepts their lot in life and detest anyone who wants a system that doesnt automatically provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

I'd say the government is doing a damn good job. Its about the only thing they have ever done remarkably well.

[rjv]

i don't know whether to peg darkreign as a narcissist or nihilist but he makes an entertaining read nonetheless. i mean this is like neitzsche lite.

[Marcus Bryant]

DR...have you read any Gatto?


Youre supposed to be a mindless drone who accepts their lot in life and detest anyone who wants a system that doesnt automatically provide for those who cannot provide for themselves.

:tu

Great post.

[LnGrrrR]

i don't know whether to peg darkreign as a narcissist or nihilist but he makes an entertaining read nonetheless. i mean this is like neitzsche lite.

I would just say a pessimist more than anything else.

Marcus Bryant, DarkReign, ExtraStout, WH23, CosmicCowboy and 101A should all get together for the inevitable downfall of the United States. :)

I'm slightly more optimistic.

[Marcus Bryant]

Nothing like a little Maker's Mark in the early evening.

[DarkReign]

DR...have you read any Gatto?

No, but I seen WH's link earlier in this thread (or was it another thread?) and started reading Chapter 1.

Fortunately, work is picking back up to the extreme. My time and focus belongs there. I havent gotten home before 9pm in two weeks.

[rjv]

I would just say a pessimist more than anything else.

Marcus Bryant, DarkReign, ExtraStout, WH23, CosmicCowboy and 101A should all get together for the inevitable downfall of the United States. :)

I'm slightly more optimistic.

yeah, that would be an interesting posse. a sort of existential anarchists club.

i'm with you though. a little more on the half full side.

[DarkReign]

I would just say a pessimist more than anything else.

Marcus Bryant, DarkReign, ExtraStout, WH23, CosmicCowboy and 101A should all get together for the inevitable downfall of the United States. :)

I'm slightly more optimistic.


yeah, that would be an interesting posse. a sort of existential anarchists club.

i'm with you though. a little more on the half full side.

Optimism != Realism

[NFGIII]

You want your country to be anything like Detroit?

If you do, go ahead and even fucking consider what poverty needs or wants. My advice, tell them to get a fucking job and become productive for themselves, not for your city of residence or your country. Until then, STFU and starve already.

Agreed. I've seen many a picture showing what Detroit has become. An abandoned run down city that is disgraceful. But that has already been made quite clear by DR.

Only in the 20th century and beyond has poverty been subsidized by the government to the extent that we see now, except in a few other cases - one in particular would be Rome's initiating the public dole and later adding the games as an attempt to appease the city's poor, which it was IMHO. In the past Mother Nature had control and through her many techniques - disease, drought leading to starvation, natural disasters...etc was able to liimit poverty's population. And was more effective when you combine that with the ruling elite's total indifference to the problem. Now that control has been removed to a great extent. And a significant portion of the ruling elite have become concerned about the plight of these people and have stepped in with massive government programs in order to solve what seems apparantly to be an unsolvable situation.

I know that these people are human beings and deserve a helping hand but there will come a time when their negative effect on society will have to been addressed. This situation reminds me of the movie "The Matrix" when Agent Smith was descibing to a captured Morpheus his thoughtrs about the human race. That it was a virus, consuming all the resources in one area while mulitplying and moving on to another and repeating the same thing over agian. Poverty in this day and age seems to be heading in that direction at our expense.

How to control this situation better? Dunno but I doubt if we'll be able to employ Mother Nature again like in the olden days.

[rjv]

I know that these people are human beings and deserve a helping hand but there will come a time when their negative effect on society will have to been addressed. This situation reminds me of the movie "The Matrix" when Agent Smith was descibing to a captured Morpheus his thoughtrs about the human race. That it was a virus, consuming all the resources in one area while mulitplying and moving on to another and repeating the same thing over agian. Poverty in this day and age seems to be heading in that direction at our expense.



agent smith was sartre and neo camus in that instance. of course neo defeats agent smith which was the point of that scene and one that i think is applicable to the very subject at hand (at least philosophically speaking).

[nuclearfm]

well at least the large influx of mexican immigrants and presence of first generation mexican americans will present us a large faction of society with a strong work ethic and the ability to make a manifold gasket out of a cereal box. they can save america.

It's true. Hispanics are about a century ahead in new means of space travel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Alcubierre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Chang-D%C3%ADaz


One we run out of natural resources after locust like whites have consumed them all, we're going to be up shit creak unless we leave.

[LnGrrrR]

Optimism != Realism

Cmon DR. You know the real truth's somewhere in the middle.

[DarkReign]

Cmon DR. You know the real truth's somewhere in the middle.

When speaking on the issues of possible legislation, negotiations with promises of compromise are usually expedient (although not particularly effective, imo).

On the other hand, in the assessment of threats against a nation and the corresponding dialogue of options and strategy to defend itself, negotiation and compromise are the tools employed by the conquered.

[Winehole23]

http://the2012scenario.com/2011/12/m-i-t-game-changer-free-online-education-for-all/

[boutons_deux]

My son took a free on-line course in Artificial Intelligence from Stanford. He said it was super hard but he loved it. Now he's having a hard time deciding which free on-line course to take at which top school.

Combined with all the free how-to stuff for just about everything on Internet, the only excuse is not having Internet access (which is comparitively expensive and slow in USA, but that's how the free market works (fucks you every chance it can).

[CosmicCowboy]

Referring to the OP dropout rate, you can lead a punk to school but you can't make him think.

[CosmicCowboy]

Just heard on the radio this morning that "Haven for Hope" our multi-million dollar city homeless shelter is going to have it's first kid raised there leave for college at Baylor this fall. He's going to major in anthropology. Fucking great. after he graduates he can come back home and move back in with mom and dad.

[Stringer_Bell]

Just heard on the radio this morning that "Haven for Hope" our multi-million dollar city homeless shelter is going to have it's first kid raised there leave for college at Baylor this fall. He's going to major in anthropology. Fucking great. after he graduates he can come back home and move back in with mom and dad.

Or travel the world exploring ancient ruins or documenting different species of animals or working in a museum.

[CosmicCowboy]

Or travel the world exploring ancient ruins or documenting different species of animals or working in a museum.

With a PhD maybe. With a batchelors? Pffffft.

C'mon Stringer..that was funny and you know it...:p:

[baseline bum]

http://the2012scenario.com/2011/12/m-i-t-game-changer-free-online-education-for-all/

Wow, that's really cool. MIT's OpenCourseware is easily the best website I have ever found on the internet (Lewin's physics lectures are particularly amazing), so I can't wait to see how they have this setup. I just hope they're not dumbed-down versions.

[z0sa]

My son

holy sweet Jesus, there are little boutons running around?

[mrsmaalox]

Just heard on the radio this morning that "Haven for Hope" our multi-million dollar city homeless shelter is going to have it's first kid raised there leave for college at Baylor this fall. He's going to major in anthropology. Fucking great. after he graduates he can come back home and move back in with mom and dad.

LOL they said the kid was "raised" there? That place hasn't even had residents for 2 years yet. Taking credit :lol

[Winehole23]

My son took a free on-line course in Artificial Intelligence from Stanford. He said it was super hard but he loved it. Now he's having a hard time deciding which free on-line course to take at which top school.
Under the classical model, universities were institutions that created, stored and disseminated knowledge. If students or scholars wished to access that knowledge, they had to come to the university. But, Noam argued, the internet (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/internet) would threaten that model by raising the question memorably posed by Howard Rheingold in the 1980s: "Where is the Library of Congress when it's on my desktop?" If all the world's stored knowledge can be accessed from any networked device, and if the teaching materials and lectures of the best scholars are likewise available online, why should students pay fees and incur debts to live in cramped accommodation for three years? What would be the USP of the traditional university when its monopolies on storage and dissemination eroded?


If that was a good question in 1995, it's an even better one today. The answers offered by traditional universities over the years varied according to status and mission. Some universities went into denial and pretended that Noam's "dim future" wouldn't happen to them. Some decided that their USPs – their elite brands – would protect them from the gathering storm. Others decided that they would become primarily research-driven outfits with undergraduate teaching being regarded as a tiresome chore that could be outsourced to graduate instructors. A few experimented with distance teaching and the delusion that putting their educational "content" online would solve the problem. But, different though these responses were, all universities were agreed on one thing: in the end, students would have to come to them because only universities could give them the appropriate credentials. QED.
In behaving thus, universities put themselves in the role of the mythical frog in a saucepan of water that is being slowly heated on a hob. As time passes, the frog notices gradual changes in the temperature, but each increment seems relatively tolerable, so the creature adapts to it. But then there comes a moment when the water boils...


Some things have happened recently that make one think that perhaps the water might be reaching boiling point for traditional universities. The key development is a set of three courses created by Stanford University academics and colleagues in three subject areas: machine learning, database design and artificial intelligence. What makes these significant is that they are: intellectually demanding; free; presented entirely online; taught by world-class academics; and inclusive of assessment as well as tuition.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/feb/05/desktop-degree-stanford-university-naughton

[Winehole23]

What all of these new ventures have in common is that they are outside of the existing system of college credits and degrees. The traditional college degree monopoly has long been sustained by three mutually-reinforcing factors. First, colleges are highly subsidized through some combination of direct government funding, non-profit status, and student financial aid. Second, only accredited colleges can receive government subsidies and offer credits and credentials that are recognized by employers and other colleges. The accreditation system, meanwhile, is controlled by existing colleges themselves. Third, our society has made an enormous psychic investment in the idea of traditional colleges. Most people don’t know how to think about credentials any other way.


Straighterline, Udacity, and MITx exist outside of that system. They aren’t accredited or subsidized. The value of their credentials will rest on nothing other than the authority of the grantor and the transparency of the process by which they were granted. That’s why it’s highly unlikely that these credentials will be worth as much in the job market as traditional degrees at first. But in that sense, they fit perfectly with the classic theory of disruptive innovation.
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/101620/higher-education-accreditation-MIT-university

[Winehole23]

https://www.edx.org/

[Winehole23]

Maybe the three titans of Harvard, Berkeley, and MIT will propel edX to victory, or maybe the user experience expertise and facility with the economics of Silicon Valley will help Udacity carry the day. Coursera’s marriage of world-class brands with valley know-how seems like a formidable combination. Pearson, the British textbook giant, is working to build a platform of its own. There is a great deal of money and power at stake now. We may not know who and we may not know when, but someone is going to write the software that eats higher education.

It will probably take a little while to digest. Cars and automobiles almost entirely killed the long-distance passenger train industry, for example, but railroads today carry more freight than ever, and it would be almost impossible to build automobiles if railroads did not exist to transport the raw materials. Similarly, TV did not replace radio, but merely diluted its influence. Older models often adapt and endure in significant if less important forms. As the platform wars commence and huge online courses grow in prominence, most of the first adopters won’t be American students forgoing the opportunity to drink beer on weekends at State U. Instead, they’ll be students like Bali, among the hundreds of millions of people around the world with the talent and desire to learn but no State U to attend. The initial MOOC statistics bear this out—according to Udacity’s founder, Sebastian Thrun, more people from Lithuania signed up for his Stanford class than attend Stanford itself.



Instead of trying to directly challenge American colleges—a daunting proposition, given the political power and public subsidies they possess—the new breed of tech start-ups will likely start by working in the unregulated private sector, where they’ll build what amounts to a parallel higher education universe.http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemberoctober_2012/features/_its_three_oclock_in039373.php?page=all

[CosmicCowboy]

1) There is a significant part of the population whose culture teaches that delaying full-time work to get an education is foolish and/or irresponsible.

2) There is a significant part of the population whose culture teaches if a woman gets pregnant, she is supposed to stop her education. Within that group, a fraction still does not believe in educating women at all.

3) Then there are those who hardly have a chance to be educated because they spend their entire childhood with a chaotic home life.

4) Then there are those who might like to finish their education, but have to choose between having enough income to eke out a meager existence and finishing school.

5) Then there are those whose goal in life is to do as little as possible and suck off the resources of the state.

There is never, ever, ever going to be some magic fix to the education system that will raise the graduation rate because the education system is not the problem. The culture of poverty is the problem.

Well said.

[boutons_deux]

It's very interesting, even exciting, development, but will employers give on-line learning anymore credibility than they do to for-profit college scammers? Or do employers really count? Perhaps if people, self-selected, are energetic and disciplined enough to learn, seriously, successfully, for years, on line, then maybe they can earn a living without being an employee.

[johnsmith]

Or travel the world exploring ancient ruins or documenting different species of animals or working in a museum.

Yes, that is much more the norm for college graduates majoring in anthropology......:rolleyes

[johnsmith]

It's very interesting, even exciting, development, but will employers give on-line learning anymore credibility than they do to for-profit college scammers? no
Or do employers really count? Yes
Perhaps if people, self-selected, are energetic and disciplined enough to learn, seriously, successfully, for years, on line, then maybe they can earn a living without being an employee. maybe, if they work hard.

[CosmicCowboy]

I would a lot rather hire someone that gave 100% effort to the University of Phoenix and learned the course material than some fuckoff that spent most of their college years on 6th Street and got a paper from UT that says they managed to survive 5 years and barely got out.

[johnsmith]

I would a lot rather hire someone that gave 100% effort to the University of Phoenix and learned the course material than some fuckoff that spent most of their college years on 6th Street and got a paper from UT that says they managed to survive 5 years and barely got out.

Still though, when you are hiring a recent college grad, one from each of the options you just listed, and they both do fine in the interview process, who do you end up picking?

[CosmicCowboy]

A degree is a punch in the life ticket that allegedly gives you the knowledge to become a productive citizen. If in fact both applicants have equal knowledge and ambition I see no reason to discriminate against the UOP grad, especially if he worked to support himself while taking online classes.

[johnsmith]

A degree is a punch in the life ticket that allegedly gives you the knowledge to become a productive citizen. If in fact both applicants have equal knowledge and ambition I see no reason to discriminate against the UOP grad, especially if he worked to support himself while taking online classes.

You're changing the scenario though. All things being equal, who do you hire?

[boutons_deux]

if he worked to support himself while taking online classes.

The House Republican Budget Would Eliminate Pell Grants For More Than One Million Students

The budget would cut Pell grant eligibility for students who attend classes on a less-than-halftime schedule — which usually means low-income students who need to work their way through college.
And it gets worse. Sixty percent of students who receive Pell grants also take out loans — twice the rate for college students overall — so they might be doubly hit by the Ryan cuts: In addition to receiving less Pell money, they would have to start paying interest on their loans while still in school.

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2012/03/28/454043/housegot-budget-one-million-pell-grants/

the Repug education policies! :lol

[johnsmith]

The House Republican Budget Would Eliminate Pell Grants For More Than One Million Students

The budget would cut Pell grant eligibility for students who attend classes on a less-than-halftime schedule — which usually means low-income students who need to work their way through college.
And it gets worse. Sixty percent of students who receive Pell grants also take out loans — twice the rate for college students overall — so they might be doubly hit by the Ryan cuts: In addition to receiving less Pell money, they would have to start paying interest on their loans while still in school.

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2012/03/28/454043/housegot-budget-one-million-pell-grants/

the Repug education policies! :lol

Again, the conversation is steering in a way that you aren't paying attention too.

[CosmicCowboy]

You're changing the scenario though. All things being equal, who do you hire?

I really can't say. Plus, it would be really freaky if two applicants were exactly totally equal with the exception of where their diploma was from.

[Th'Pusher]

I really can't say. Plus, it would be really freaky if two applicants were exactly totally equal with the exception of where their diploma was from.

Ya. At that point I would hope it would be based upon rapport/fit with the individual and the organization.

[TeyshaBlue]

Again, the conversation is steering in a way that you aren't paying attention too.

lol at the bot paying attention to anything but his RSS feed.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's getting very very tempting to put the bot on ignore.

[TeyshaBlue]

I really can't say. Plus, it would be really freaky if two applicants were exactly totally equal with the exception of where their diploma was from.

The likelihood of this happening approaches zero.
Any diploma trumps no diploma, imo. I know I'm not even using my degree currently, but without it, I'd never even gotten the interview.

[coyotes_geek]

Generally agree, but I think the point js was trying to make is that be it right or wrong, most employers are going to place more value in a degree from Texas than one from Univ of Phoenix.

[boutons_deux]

Again, the conversation is steering in a way that you aren't paying attention too.

you aren't paying attention, fuckface.

CC said he would trust a kid who worked his way through studies, and I cited his Repug team penalizing such kids.

[TeyshaBlue]

you aren't paying attention, fuckface.

CC said he would trust a kid who worked his way through studies, and I cited his Repug team penalizing such kids.

*enlightened progressive post*

Yet you wouldn't mention Obama already killing 100,000 Pell Grants. Of course, that's not on thinkprogress.borg:lmao

[boutons_deux]

Generally agree, but I think the point js was trying to make is that be it right or wrong, most employers are going to place more value in a degree from Texas than one from Univ of Phoenix.

and real universities very often don't recognize any credits from fake universities like Phx. So a kid is suckered into wasting his time at PHX and going into tax-payer subsidized debt for nothing, while PHX pockets his tuition. aka, for-profit colleges delivering the shittiest possible product for the highest possible price while sucking in $Bs in taxpayer-subsidized student loans.

[TeyshaBlue]

Generally agree, but I think the point js was trying to make is that be it right or wrong, most employers are going to place more value in a degree from Texas than one from Univ of Phoenix.

Ah. Perhaps. I would think the type of major would be a factor.

[CosmicCowboy]

and real universities very often don't recognize any credits from fake universities like Phx. So a kid is suckered into wasting his time at PHX and going into tax-payer subsidized debt for nothing, while PHX pockets his tuition. aka, for-profit colleges delivering the shittiest possible product for the highest possible price while sucking in $Bs in taxpayer-subsidized student loans.


So what "real" college stole your parents money?

[Blake]

and real universities very often don't recognize any credits from fake universities like Phx. So a kid is suckered into wasting his time at PHX and going into tax-payer subsidized debt for nothing, while PHX pockets his tuition. aka, for-profit colleges delivering the shittiest possible product for the highest possible price while sucking in $Bs in taxpayer-subsidized student loans.

I have a relative whose current employer recognized her masters degree in business from Phoenix.

Her former employer reimbursed her tuition during her employment there as well.

[coyotes_geek]

Ah. Perhaps. I would think the type of major would be a factor.

That's definitely true. Especially any kind of science/engineering degree. Gotta have that ABET accreditation.

[TeyshaBlue]

Real Universities™ often dont recognize credits from other Real Universities™.

[coyotes_geek]

and real universities very often don't recognize any credits from fake universities like Phx. So a kid is suckered into wasting his time at PHX and going into tax-payer subsidized debt for nothing, while PHX pockets his tuition. aka, for-profit colleges delivering the shittiest possible product for the highest possible price while sucking in $Bs in taxpayer-subsidized student loans.

And that's different from someone getting a worthless liberal arts degree from a state sponsored university, how?

[TeyshaBlue]

I have a relative whose current employer recognized her masters degree in business from Phoenix.

Her former employer reimbursed her tuition during her employment there as well.

Now that you mention it, the company I work for will pay tuition for accounting courses to Phx as well.

[johnsmith]

Now that you mention it, the company I work for will pay tuition for accounting courses to Phx as well.

You guys ruined my scenario of the exact same person just with different educations.....:lol

I suppose it is a bit unrealistic, but coyotes was right, the point I was making is that all employers will always side with the "real university" when hiring entry level employees.

I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but it is what it is.

As for your post here Teysha, my company and the company I worked for before do the same thing. ALthough I'm yet to see anyone financially rewarded for actually completing their degrees. They say they're all for it, but then when the employee gets done, nothing changes.

[elbamba]

And that's different from someone getting a worthless liberal arts degree from a state sponsored university, how?

You bring up a good point. I remember when I graduated from HS we had a counsel come in and talk to me about going to college. There wasn't any real discussion on whether I should or what classes and degrees I should take and earn. I graduated with a useless degree from a very well respected univeristy in English with a focus on Victorian Literature.

When I stepped out of college, I applied for quite a few jobs and took the best one I could get, bell man (sp) at the Marriott in Overland Park, Kansas. I worked there for two years trying to get a better job when I realized my only option was to go to law school and try to get a degree that could actually earn me an income.

I hope that HS kids learn today that getting a liberal arts degree, and taking out massive debt to get such degree is almost certainly going to lead you to a job you could have had without the degree or the need to go to grad school if you ever want to make money. Maybe 30 years ago this was not an issue, but I graduated from college in 2000 and my degree had no value.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://i.imgur.com/VVqXo.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/14954330.jpg

[coyotes_geek]

You bring up a good point. I remember when I graduated from HS we had a counsel come in and talk to me about going to college. There wasn't any real discussion on whether I should or what classes and degrees I should take and earn. I graduated with a useless degree from a very well respected univeristy in English with a focus on Victorian Literature.

When I stepped out of college, I applied for quite a few jobs and took the best one I could get, bell man (sp) at the Marriott in Overland Park, Kansas. I worked there for two years trying to get a better job when I realized my only option was to go to law school and try to get a degree that could actually earn me an income.

I hope that HS kids learn today that getting a liberal arts degree, and taking out massive debt to get such degree is almost certainly going to lead you to a job you could have had without the degree or the need to go to grad school if you ever want to make money. Maybe 30 years ago this was not an issue, but I graduated from college in 2000 and my degree had no value.

It's definitely a trap a lot of kids fall into. Even though I'm sure those in academia think this to be taboo, kids have got to start thinking of college as a business decision. Because that's exactly what it is.

[Th'Pusher]

You bring up a good point. I remember when I graduated from HS we had a counsel come in and talk to me about going to college. There wasn't any real discussion on whether I should or what classes and degrees I should take and earn. I graduated with a useless degree from a very well respected univeristy in English with a focus on Victorian Literature.

When I stepped out of college, I applied for quite a few jobs and took the best one I could get, bell man (sp) at the Marriott in Overland Park, Kansas. I worked there for two years trying to get a better job when I realized my only option was to go to law school and try to get a degree that could actually earn me an income.

I hope that HS kids learn today that getting a liberal arts degree, and taking out massive debt to get such degree is almost certainly going to lead you to a job you could have had without the degree or the need to go to grad school if you ever want to make money. Maybe 30 years ago this was not an issue, but I graduated from college in 2000 and my degree had no value.

I graduated in 1999 with a degree in communications, was already employed in a specialized call center while in college. I worked my way up within the organization into middle management and my degree is now a check mark on my resume. I turned down an offer this week for a 6-figure job because I didn't think it was the right fit.

That said, in hindsight, a more specialized degree would have allowed me to make more money quicker ultimately increasing the money I make over a lifetime.

[TE]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/14954330.jpg

:lmao

[Winehole23]

http://i.imgur.com/VVqXo.jpg:lmao

[Blake]

As for your post here Teysha, my company and the company I worked for before do the same thing. ALthough I'm yet to see anyone financially rewarded for actually completing their degrees. They say they're all for it, but then when the employee gets done, nothing changes.

I've seen enough to know that for all practical purposes, the only way to move up in your career is to move out.

[Blake]

I graduated in 1999 with a degree in communications, was already employed in a specialized call center while in college. I worked my way up within the organization into middle management and my degree is now a check mark on my resume.

Although I quit to go to school, change the year and change call center to HEB and this would basically be me.

[Winehole23]

As the platform wars commence and huge online courses grow in prominence, most of the first adopters won’t be American students forgoing the opportunity to drink beer on weekends at State U. Instead, they’ll be students like Bali, among the hundreds of millions of people around the world with the talent and desire to learn but no State U to attend. The initial MOOC statistics bear this out—according to Udacity’s founder, Sebastian Thrun, more people from Lithuania signed up for his Stanford class than attend Stanford itself.

Instead of trying to directly challenge American colleges—a daunting proposition, given the political power and public subsidies they possess—the new breed of tech start-ups will likely start by working in the unregulated private sector, where they’ll build what amounts to a parallel higher education universe.http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/mag...3.php?page=all (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemberoctober_2012/features/_its_three_oclock_in039373.php?page=all)


The danger in overreliance on global MOOCs is that they don’t build local capacity for education, research or knowledge creation in the education sector.

For example, Kepler, a U.S.-based endeavor, announced its intention to offer an education superior to any available at a Rwandan university for a lower cost. This may benefit a small group of Rwandans in the short term, but it does not assist President Paul Kagame’s struggle to improve education and technology in that country over the long term.



It’s easy to imagine a future in which the educational equivalent of reruns of Baywatch (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GDH8J2/?tag=slatmaga-20)—a limited menu of glossy American fare—comes to dominate the cultural landscape in developing countries around the world, making it more difficult for cash-starved universities in those countries to pursue scholarship relevant to local contexts. This potential undermining of local education becomes especially problematic when the U.S. government takes an official role in promoting the use of MOOCs as a form of public diplomacy.http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/11/developing_countries_and_moocs_online_education_co uld_hurt_national_systems.html

[boutons_deux]

"more people from Lithuania signed up for his Stanford class than attend Stanford itself."

duh, Stanford students already have a probably heavy course load.

[Winehole23]

http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/education/3-ideas-to-make-college-mostly-free-20131201

[TeyshaBlue]

I like the pay it forward idea....which is basically a student loan at 3%. Missing are amortization details. Any caps or does the 3% continue for a set term?
Plus, as the article stated, 3% might not be the best deal for some.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-america/education/3-ideas-to-make-college-mostly-free-20131201

damn blue states, always PROGRESSING out front of regressing red states.

[Winehole23]

^^^ more psuedo-rationality masquerading as wisdom. typical boutons.

[boutons_deux]

I like the pay it forward idea....which is basically a student loan at 3%. Missing are amortization details. Any caps or does the 3% continue for a set term?
Plus, as the article stated, 3% might not be the best deal for some.

Some country, very serious about investing in the next generation, gives college students loans with interest rate equal to rate of inflation.

[Wild Cobra]

Why is San Antonio so fucked up?

Is Chump responsible?

[Winehole23]

impressive, if true, being that ChumpDumper lives in Austin.

[Rogue]

kids don't need a college degree to work in the retailing industry imho, which's most today's graduates (like my old virgin nigga Jacob) find their first jobs in

[Winehole23]

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/in-flipped-classrooms-a-method-for-mastery/?_r=0

[baseline bum]

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/in-flipped-classrooms-a-method-for-mastery/?_r=0

I always wonder how the flipped classrooms work. There is a professor at Caltech, George Djorgovski, who does a flipped classroom for his Galaxies and Cosmology course at Caltech and then publishes his lectures online at coursera. Pretty cool shit.

2IAROr1_ZSk

[baseline bum]

http://the2012scenario.com/2011/12/m-i-t-game-changer-free-online-education-for-all/


Wow, that's really cool. MIT's OpenCourseware is easily the best website I have ever found on the internet (Lewin's physics lectures are particularly amazing), so I can't wait to see how they have this setup. I just hope they're not dumbed-down versions.

I have taken a few of those courses on edx now, and a lot of them are dumbed down, but the ones from Caltech and MIT usually aren't. I don't think they're really the game-changer the article makes them out to be though. MOOC courses work well for lower division stuff where you're calculating an answer that an autograder can easily evaluate or if you're writing a program that can be timed and so on, but not for upper division nor graduate level work when the problems are more in line with "prove result X holds". The limitations of the grading really held back a Stanford Quantum Mechanics MOOC course from last year, for instance, since deriving results instead of calculating numbers is such a crucial part of a course like that. The only realistic scenario is peer grading where students grade the problems, but then they have to be dumbed down since since you have everyone from kids to experts in the field taking the course together.

[Winehole23]

The only realistic scenario is peer grading where students grade the problems,students break up into groups and teach each other. not everyone progresses at the same rate. let the kids who've already mastered it teach it to their peers, so the teacher can focus on the trickier cases.

[pgardn]

This is something that education has to constantly endure, the magic bullet.

There is no magic bullet. What we have found is that people learn effectively in a variety of ways. It's nice to explore options, but in the end it seems the best way for the majority is having a competent human being to guide and help.
And if you put 35 students in front of a competent human being you are less likely to reach all 35... as opposed to 17 students.

Looked back at the thread title, 35% graduation... Shame on us.

[Winehole23]

it's a discussion thread. the flipped classroom is just one idea of many mentioned here. that it was offered as a magic bullet is your own imagining, not mine, silly.

[baseline bum]

it's a discussion thread. the flipped classroom is just one idea of many mentioned here. that it was offered as a magic bullet is your own imagining, not mine, silly.

It's an interesting idea for college work. I mean did anyone here actually do the readings before class when they were in school? I only did it when it was a course I was really into, but otherwise? Never. The whole point of going to the class was so that you could skip reading the book or at least see the motivation behind the ideas in the book. Flipped classrooms make a lot of sense since you get people to work together When they come to class like they would have to do in any job in the real world. It's a great use of student time since you're actually doing the work in class and can bounce ideas off each other vs sitting there and zoning out 20 minutes into the lecture.

I don't know that it's workable at the high school level though. Average high school students don't seem like they'd be too disciplined to watch lecture videos at home in preparation for class.

[Winehole23]

in principle it ought to work whenever some of the students do their homework and understand it, both big ifs, understood. one of the big disappointments of going to college was how few people there were to talk to in class. in most classes there would be 2-5 other people who bothered to do the assigned reading. one some days it was clear no one besides the prof had read.

[baseline bum]

I jumped the gun a bit too much in my post above. In humanities courses where the reading was truly critical most of my classmates and I did the assigned reading before lectures. But in STEM courses no one does them because the lecture and the homework/projects are the critical parts of the course, and the book is usually just a reference or a guide for going deeper into a topic not covered enough in lecture.

[pgardn]

it's a discussion thread. the flipped classroom is just one idea of many mentioned here. that it was offered as a magic bullet is your own imagining, not mine, silly.

Yes it was.

But this kind of stuff has gone on since the inception of public schools.

[pgardn]

It's an interesting idea for college work. I mean did anyone here actually do the readings before class when they were in school? I only did it when it was a course I was really into, but otherwise? Never. The whole point of going to the class was so that you could skip reading the book or at least see the motivation behind the ideas in the book. Flipped classrooms make a lot of sense since you get people to work together When they come to class like they would have to do in any job in the real world. It's a great use of student time since you're actually doing the work in class and can bounce ideas off each other vs sitting there and zoning out 20 minutes into the lecture.

I don't know that it's workable at the high school level though. Average high school students don't seem like they'd be too disciplined to watch lecture videos at home in preparation for class.

Lab classes seemed to always require lab partners get together before the lab for me, especially organic chemistry labs. The damn things took 4 hrs (for 1 hr credit) and screwing up was so easy. Every lab seemed to require cooling using a distillation apparatus with water. Yet water was the enemy, it ruined your lab. So it was great fun having your lab neighbor's hose come off and spraying your set up 2 hrs in.

But it was a hell of a lot of fun preparing properly and actually getting the desired product in less than 4 hrs. Or starting over and taking turns eating outside with everyone else that had to start over. I had some great organic chemistry teachers.

[pgardn]

I believe 1/2 of college is just showing you are resourceful enough to get through. Obstacles get thrown in your way (the famous, "we don't offer that class this semester, or it's full") and you work around them to actually complete something.

Then they give you a piece of paper...

[Nbadan]

I believe 1/2 of college is just showing you are resourceful enough to get through. Obstacles get thrown in your way (the famous, "we don't offer that class this semester, or it's full") and you work around them to actually complete something.

Then they give you a piece of paper...

It's not a mystery...
College is the key to getting a job
Self education is the key to becoming personally or economically successful....

[pgardn]

It's not a mystery...
College is the key to getting a job
Self education is the key to becoming personally or economically successful....

I wanted a big steak dinner, not paper.

Its tougher on kids today though, they often need two pieces of paper and experience (involves getting used as an unpaid intern)

[Nbadan]

I wanted a big steak dinner, not paper.

Its tougher on kids today though, they often need two pieces of paper and experience (involves getting used as an unpaid intern)

Plenty of successful people out there with no paper....but they are self-educated and they have a quality the average student lacks....self motivation...

[pgardn]

Plenty of successful people out there with no paper....but they are self-educated and they have a quality the average student lacks....self motivation...

And people skills.

A vastly underrated skill that public schools supply by throwing a bunch of kids with different backgrounds together.
One disadvantage of homeschooling imo.

Some of the best are drug dealers that understand drawing attention to yourself is stupid. The ones that don't misbehave and never go to the office for discipline. Maybe even have an eye out for when the dogs are coming to the school.

[Nbadan]

A vastly underrated skill that public schools supply by throwing a bunch of kids with different backgrounds together.
One disadvantage of homeschooling imo.

Well, some very successful people are socially inept...

[pgardn]

Well, some very successful people are socially inept...
The ones I am familiar with are definitely not.
They would get a great idea lifted from them.

[Nbadan]

The ones I am familiar with are definitely not.
They would get a great idea lifted from them.

Doing what I do...I roam with a rich crowd in SA at times....some are very awkward and socially incapable...

[pgardn]

Doing what I do...I roam with a rich crowd in SA at times....some are very awkward and socially incapable...

I would not have a job if some very socially inept brilliant people had the capacity to listen to, and understand each other's ideas, and pay attention to what each other are doing... Learn each other's stuff. I would not be needed and they could break away from the leeches they work for. They could strike out on their own... But no way, they don't listen, they don't know how to reach deals. Hell, they can't even read tone of voice or facial expressions. Stuck in their own little world.

My experience anyways, we all have our own reality that we take as a lesson.

[Nbadan]

trust me....being smart and driven does not always equate to being socially capable...some CEOs are SOBs..

[pgardn]

trust me....being smart and driven does not always equate to being socially capable...some CEOs are SOBs..
IMO that's part of being smart. Being able to read people and motivate them is invaluable. There are all kinds of smart.

[Winehole23]

I wanted a big steak dinner, not paper.champagne taste on a beer budget. I can relate.

[Winehole23]

But this kind of stuff has gone on since the inception of public schools.it's not so common now, hence the somewhat gimmicky NYT piece upstream; dismissing it as a commonplace doesn't diminish its usefulness that I can tell.

[Blake]

And people skills.

A vastly underrated skill that public schools supply by throwing a bunch of kids with different backgrounds together.
One disadvantage of homeschooling imo.

Some of the best are drug dealers that understand drawing attention to yourself is stupid. The ones that don't misbehave and never go to the office for discipline. Maybe even have an eye out for when the dogs are coming to the school.

There's book smart and then there's street smart.

Some of us get by on being one of those things. Some of us happen to be both.

[leemajors]

champagne taste on a beer budget. I can relate.

http://sunnysideoysterbarnc.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/D857Miller-High-Life-Posters.310185850_std.jpg

[pgardn]

IMO that's part of being smart. Being able to read people and motivate them is invaluable. There are all kinds of smart.

And again.