Joe Wilson Apolgizes to Rahm Emanuel & Obama

[ManuTP9]

www.foxnews.com

President Obama's address Wednesday to Congress was greeted warmly with applause from Democrats, but also some disruptions, including one moment in which a congressman accused Obama of lying.

The incident came directly after Obama said, "There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

South Carolina Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted, "You lie!"

Wilson's outburst caused Obama to pause briefly before he went on with his speech. Overhead in the visitors' gallery, first lady Michelle Obama shook her head from side to side.

Wilson's shout drew immediate condemnation from both sides of the aisle, ultimately leading him to apologize.

"This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," Wilson said in a written statement following the speech. "While I disagree with the president's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility."

Wilson also called White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel to apologize, according to a statement from his office.

Reaction to the outburst included criticism from members of Wilson's own party.

"Anybody who would cat-call the president of the United States addressing this body is very, very inappropriate, and he will hear from a lot of us about that," Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Calif., told FOX News Radio.

Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin of Illionois called it "crude and disrespectful."

And Democratic Sen. Jim Clyburn, also of South Carolina, said Wilson "went beyond heckling."

"That was probably one of the most-insulting things I've ever seen," Clyburn told FOX News. "The people of South Carolina are not well-served by that."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who spoke to FOX News before learning who delivered the yell, said she didn't intend to move to sanction anyone for it

[hope4dopes]

Jesus pete stark did a lot more than that....a number of times.I thought it was great.

[Yonivore]

Several Democrats booed President Bush during a 2005 address to the joint body. I don't recall any Democrats apologizing or demanding an apology from their colleagues.

[ManuTP9]

He should of threw a shoe at him :lol

[sam1617]

And if he did lie (and I'm not saying he did)?

Seriously, people would pay a hell of a lot more attention to our house and senate if they ever seemed like they were passionate about shit... They should be more like the British House of Commons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xUy2inkGHQ

[sam1617]

Several Democrats booed President Bush during a 2005 address to the joint body. I don't recall any Democrats apologizing or demanding an apology from their colleagues.

Booing is a little different than accusing him of lying...

[Yonivore]

Booing is a little different than accusing him of lying...
Not really. But, if it makes feel better...

[hope4dopes]

Booing is a little different than accusing him of lying... yeah it takes words instead of grunts.

[iggypop123]

booing goes on all the time or at least lately. the lying was a bit much. when guys on your side are ashamed somethings up.

[hope4dopes]

I mean let's face it the Majority of America would have said the same thing to him if they could.

[sam1617]

Not really. But, if it makes feel better...

Booing is an expression of disagreement or displeasure.

Saying someone is a liar is an insult to their character.

I hopefully shouldn't have to explain to you why one is worse than the other...

[Yonivore]

booing goes on all the time or at least lately. the lying was a bit much. when guys on your side are ashamed somethings up.
When the guys on your side are beyond shame, that's when something's up.

[hope4dopes]

Booing is an expression of disagreement or displeasure.

Saying someone is a liar is an insult to their character.

I hopefully shouldn't have to explain to you why one is worse than the other...
assuming that is they have a character.

[iggypop123]

and so it begins. love the internet

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/3904891239_94853f3c42_o.png

[Stringer_Bell]

When the guys on your side are beyond shame, that's when something's up.

What side is iggypop123 on? And what side is Yonivore? I am curious how many sides there are and what those sides consist of.

Also, I agree that the majority of "far right" looney toons would have yelled out at Obama tonight if they were in the room. It's possible the people of SC are behind Wilson's remark. Good looking out toward the next election, sir!

[iggypop123]

i dont think yonivore has a side but hating obama. happens with every president. alot of people hate Reagan even though people like hannity and others say he has no flaws and is perfection.

nice pic stringer from your "product" meeting. you are a huge capitalist sir.

[hope4dopes]

What side is iggypop123 on? And what side is Yonivore? I am curious how many sides there are and what those sides consist of.

Also, I agree that the majority of "far right" looney toons would have yelled out at Obama tonight if they were in the room. It's possible the people of SC are behind Wilson's remark. Good looking out toward the next election, sir!
Oh I don't know Pete Stark of California on the floor of the congress said Bush was sending our young men to war so they could get their heads blown off for Bush's amuesment,I think you gotta agree that calling someone a sadistic murderer is somewhat more outrageous than calling them a liar, and yet Stark has been a represenative since god was born and still is.However you may be correct perhaps the far right looney toons of SC may have higher standards than the flotsam and jetsom of liberal california.

[ElNono]

Republicans also said the heckling was out of line. “I think we ought to treat the president with respect,” said Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, “and anything other than that is not appropriate.”

[Yonivore]

Republicans also said the heckling was out of line. “I think we ought to treat the president with respect,” said Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, “and anything other than that is not appropriate.”
I agree.

[SouthernFried]

I agree...someone shoulda thrown a shoe at him.

Or, better yet...the house's Obamacare bill. But, given the size of that thing...prolly woulda caused some serious damage. No, a shoe woulda been appropriate.

I don't think Obama should be treated with respect at all. I don't like him, don't like what he's doing to the Country, don't like who he appoints. No, this guy should be booed, jeered...and run outta Washington. He's attacking everything this country stands for.

The Office of the Presidency shoud be respected...which is why the guy degrading it should not.

er...imho :)

[iggypop123]

south +black president =no surprise

[Yonivore]

After reading parts of the speech, I'm inclined to forgive Congressman Wilson for his inability to stand the nonsense anymore...

After all, consider how despicable it is for Obama to continue to attack the previous administration and distort its record. Is that appropriate behavior for a President speaking to a joint session of Congress?

You want respect? Try giving it occasionally.

Then, there's this from Obama's speech.


Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.
So Obama calls Palin a liar (not by name but everyone knows who he's talking about) and we are supposed to get our panties in a bunch because Wilson yelled it out?

At least Wilson had the guts to do it to in the same room.


http://ace.mu.nu/archives/ilie.jpg

[Winehole23]

I mean let's face it the Majority of America would have said the same thing to him if they could.Face it, micca: the "Majority of America" is classier than that, even if that's what it thinks.

[Yonivore]

Face it, micca: the "Majority of America" is classier than that, even if that's what it thinks.
Well, at least you admit the people screaming "Bush lied, people died," and "Bushitler is a war criminal" aren't a part of the "majority of American."

[Stringer_Bell]

nice pic stringer from your "product" meeting. you are a huge capitalist sir.

Thanks, I like to think it shows off my congenial side. The event documented in the photo also fits in well with my response to hope4dopes...


Oh I don't know Pete Stark of California on the floor of the congress said Bush was sending our young men to war so they could get their heads blown off for Bush's amuesment,I think you gotta agree that calling someone a sadistic murderer is somewhat more outrageous than calling them a liar, and yet Stark has been a represenative since god was born and still is.However you may be correct perhaps the far right looney toons of SC may have higher standards than the flotsam and jetsom of liberal california.

Pete Stark was the recognized speaker at the time he made those remarks. I won't agree with or condemn anything he said while he was recognized on the floor, other than to say his comments were made after Bush's actions (and the consequences) had convinced him, in his life experience, that Bush was a rotten "decider." Joe Wilson was not the recognized speaker when he yelled at the President of the United States. But even then, I don't think it was really much of a bad thing when he's got his supporters in SC probably happy to see him stand up to the big bag black man trying to turn their beloved country into a socialist leaning power-sharing shadow of its former self. I can't help but feel Wilson made the right move for himself, and that's what politics is all about.

I'm pretty shallow and uninformed, but I don't know any decision Obama has made that was based on a lie or fear that caused the violent deaths of Americans, let alone America's protectors. I understand people don't want to let him make those mistakes, so they criticize and yell to shake his focus. But niggahs please, let's reserve the hate for when Obama does something really fucked up like choke on pretzel. He did win the popular vote afterall. :downspin:

[iggypop123]

people in congress arent supposed to be nuts or act like glenn beck. its supposed to be everyone has their practiced stupid standing ovations and then everyone fakes smiles and goes on fox or cnn to bash each other

[hater]

that dude looked hammered

[Jacob1983]

This incident does not even come close to the amount of shit Bush got from haters during his 8 years as president. When a people bitch and cry about something like this because it happen to Obama, I really don't have that much sympathy because those same people that are crying and demanding this guy's head on a stick are the ones that did the same to Bush when he was president. Fuckin hypocrites!

[SnakeBoy]

So Obama calls Palin a liar (not by name but everyone knows who he's talking about) and we are supposed to get our panties in a bunch because Wilson yelled it out?


When I heard him take that shot at Palin I didn't think of it that way. I just thought damn she's got the POTUS responding to her facebook posts again.

[Winehole23]

Decorum is a bunch of phony baloney, but we do expect it of our reps, and they expect it from one other. Let em shout each other down on CNN. A Presidential speech to the joint bodies in the House of Representatives isn't the time or place.

[Winehole23]

Even in the PM's Questions, which is very unruly (and entertaining) by comparison, the forms of address are exacting, the harrumphing mainly accompanies the politicking of party principals and is not unrestrained, the cat calls are audible but brief, and back-benchers are usually given courteous attention when they rise to speak. It's hardly a free for all.

[SouthernFried]

awww...screw decorum.

To hell with phony politeness and politics as usual on the Hill. I would love to see the American people pull these elitists from their ivory perches up there. If one Congressman "heckles" this guy, I'm thinkin'...I wanna see more of 'em doing it!

I don't wanna see "politeness" when this guy is using their podium to promote huge government takeovers, control, and increasing power over our lives. Screw that!

Get off your butts and start fighting this crap. Heckling ain't half of what I'd like to see done. I wanna see a sea change, a revolution. People (including congresspeople) shouting down these authoritarian ass's...standing up and doing the "we're mad as hell..." thingy.

Besides, who the hell watches CNN?

[ChumpDumper]

:lol white people.

[PM5K]

Eh, he wasn't lying anyhow.

[boutons_deux]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-09-10-Obama_healthcare_address.jpg

[SouthernFried]

I like everything about that cartoon...including Biden catching some zzzzzz's.

[TheProfessor]

This incident does not even come close to the amount of shit Bush got from haters during his 8 years as president. When a people bitch and cry about something like this because it happen to Obama, I really don't have that much sympathy because those same people that are crying and demanding this guy's head on a stick are the ones that did the same to Bush when he was president. Fuckin hypocrites!
Bush was never disrespected like this during a joint session speech. Nor should he have been. Surely there's no need to defend a man who calls the POTUS a liar on national television during a speech?

[jack sommerset]

You can't call the president a liar durning his address to congress on national tv. It's that simple. You knew the boos were coming when Obama was calling the people who did not agree with him names but again you don't yell out "lie" durning his reading.

I had to laugh at Olberman last night "He should apologize,resign,leave the country" something like that.Let the voters decide that. He seems to forget about other peoples opinion besides Obamas.

FYI Obama did lie.

[LnGrrrR]

Several Democrats booed President Bush during a 2005 address to the joint body. I don't recall any Democrats apologizing or demanding an apology from their colleagues.

Yoni, aren't you one of the ones that complain when people bring up Bush whenever Obama is criticized? Aren't you doing the same here?

[George Gervin's Afro]

You can't call the president a liar durning his address to congress on national tv. It's that simple. You knew the boos were coming when Obama was calling the people who did not agree with him names but again you don't yell out "lie" durning his reading.

I had to laugh at Olberman last night "He should apologize,resign,leave the country" something like that.Let the voters decide that. He seems to forget about other peoples opinion besides Obamas.

FYI Obama did lie.

Nothing has happened yet, so how did he lie? How can you lie about somehting before the actual act?

The GOP'er yelled he was lying when he said illegals weren't going to be covered? So how exactly did he lie? Why do I have a feeling your going to avoid this...

[SouthernFried]

This address to Congress was BS anyway. There's no state of emergency, this ain't no State of the Union speech. This was just another Obama speech promoting healthcare. Like he did at Kennedy's Funeral, like he's done every freakin' day of the week.

Demanding he speak before Congress, and on National TV...just for another pep talk on a Bill he wants past, is absolute bs. This is Congress business now. Stay outta our faces and let them do their work. Quit demanding everyone cover you every time you wanna open your trap. STFU already!

And the only time OBAMA lies...is when he opens his mouth.

They shoulda grabbed his butt, and hauled him outta the room..."AND STAY OUT!!"

:)

[George Gervin's Afro]

This address to Congress was BS anyway. There's no state of emergency, this ain't no State of the Union speech. This was just another Obama speech promoting healthcare. Like he did at Kennedy's Funeral, like he's done every freakin' day of the week.

Demanding he speak before Congress, and on National TV...just for another pep talk on a Bill he wants past, is absolute bs. This is Congress business now. Stay outta our faces and let them do their work. Quit demanding everyone cover you every time you wanna open your trap. STFU already!

And the only time OBAMA lies...is when he opens his mouth.

They shoulda grabbed his butt, and hauled him outta the room..."AND STAY OUT!!"

:)


I could have sworn he was just elected President. I guess that would mean he can pursue whatever agenda he wants to..

[jman3000]

According to Boortz this guy was standing outside the assembly hall with a small cardboard sign that read "It's Bull" or something short along those lines. He was even reported to have brought the sign in with him to the chambers.

This guy had every intention to cause some shit and it worked. He's gonna be a guest next week on every conservative talk radio host's show.

I'm guessing he was planning on holding the sign up but was told by whoever was sitting next to him to quit his shit, so he instead had to think of another way to stir shit up.

[BadMoodBob]

Wilson was a pussy for apologizing.

How great was it seeing Pelosi try to mad dog him.

[polysylab1k]

Joe just confessed it was a wrong place and a wrong time for him to say "you lie", not meaning he admitted what he said was wrong.

[MannyIsGod]

Not really. But, if it makes feel better...

Yes really. But if it makes you feel better....


PS I wonder why he apologized over a non big deal, Yoni?

[ploto]

According to Boortz this guy was standing outside the assembly hall with a small cardboard sign that read "It's Bull" or something short along those lines. He was even reported to have brought the sign in with him to the chambers.

This guy had every intention to cause some shit and it worked. He's gonna be a guest next week on every conservative talk radio host's show.

It was obviously a calculated move and not a spontaneous moment of passion.

[Bartleby]

It was obviously a calculated move and not a spontaneous moment of passion.

and it was idiotic from a political standpoint. Wilson may have won points with voters in his home state, but it only furthers the perception that the GOP is not interested in anything other than obstruction and party politics.

What's more, it may have the effect of helping Obama to "rally the troops" and motivate some of the blue dog dems and other reluctant supporters to get on board with his push for health care.

[jack sommerset]

During Obama's speech he said the illegals would not be covered. He changed number of uninsured from 47 million to 30 million. Shocking! Why did he do that? He is letting people know there was 15-17 million illegals that were counted in the orginal number and by reducing that number he is trying to let people know now he won't cover illegals as he orginally wanted too. Bullshit. That is all it is.

Everyone has been saying for years the high cost of all healthcare is contributed to illegals and unisured going to emergency rooms making the cost run high for healthcare for all of us. That will not change if illegals are not covered by what Obama wants. The illegals will still be covered making all of us pay for people that should not be in our country.

If Obama all of a sudden decided not to cover the illegals then why can they still be able to access emergency rooms and not paying?

When Obama decides how to check for ID when the illegals try to get his free healthcare plan let me know.

[rjv]

when i first heard he said this i thought he was speaking in the 3rd person plural, as in they are all liars. now that would have been accurate.

[nkdlunch]

When Obama decides how to check for ID when the illegals try to get his free healthcare plan let me know.

hospitals already check IDs when you need healthcare.



If Obama all of a sudden decided not to cover the illegals then why can they still be able to access emergency rooms and not paying?

Do you understand the difference between having a healthcare program and getting healthcare at the emergency room in emergencies??

[jack sommerset]

hospitals already check IDs when you need healthcare.

Great. When Obamacare comes up with a way to check for ids before they pass out there cards let me know.

[nkdlunch]

Great. When Obamacare comes up with a way to check for ids before they pass out there cards let me know.

so you are saying they will not need to see any kind of ID when we apply for the goverment healthcare plan?

do you have a link to this? I highly doubt they will be passing the healthcare cards around like baseball cards.

[jack sommerset]

Do you understand the difference between having a healthcare program and getting healthcare at the emergency room in emergencies??

Obama said his healthcare will not cost Americans 1 dime. How is he going to do this without treating illegals in emergency rooms? So you are telling me the emergency room care has nothing to do with Obamacare.

[nkdlunch]

Obama said his healthcare will not cost Americans 1 dime. How is he going to do this without treating illegals in emergency rooms? So you are telling me the emergency room care has nothing to do with Obamacare.

they are already treating illegals at emergency rooms. this will not change. ever.

[jack sommerset]

so you are saying they will not need to see any kind of ID when we apply for the goverment healthcare plan?

do you have a link to this? I highly doubt they will be passing the healthcare cards around like baseball cards.

So is this your first day in America? Illegals can get ids for anything america has to offer with little effort. If you want to deny that, that is your deal. Illegals can get covered if Obamacare is passed.

[DarrinS]

Flashback, 2005.

RBxmEGG71PM

[jack sommerset]

they are already treating illegals at emergency rooms. this will not change. ever.

Then Obama should not say illegals are not covered.

[nkdlunch]

Then Obama should not say illegals are not covered.

by the goverment healthcare plan, they are not. thats what he said.

[nkdlunch]

So is this your first day in America? Illegals can get ids for anything america has to offer with little effort. If you want to deny that, that is your deal. Illegals can get covered if Obamacare is passed.

Illegals can't get SS cards, can't get driver licenses. So they will probably not be able to get healthcare cards.

what sort of other IDs are you referring to?

[DarrinS]

by the goverment healthcare plan. they are not.


Is that how the 40 million uninsured became the 30 million uninsured?

[jack sommerset]

by the goverment healthcare plan. they are not.

Government healthcare covers emergency room service. Illegals get this service.

[101A]

so you are saying they will not need to see any kind of ID when we apply for the goverment healthcare plan?

do you have a link to this? I highly doubt they will be passing the healthcare cards around like baseball cards.

Republicans have tried to add ammendments which require validation of citizenship for people enrolling into the plan (this is related to HB 3200). The amendments have been defeated. As it is, there is going to be an effective "don't ask, don't tell" policy for people when applying for their govt. card - of course they'll ask for the card at the hospital, or doctor's office; and the patient (legal citizen or foreigner or illegal alien) will most likely have one.

Of course Obama didn't LIE; but he certainly didn't tell the whole truth.

[jman3000]

Hippocratic Oath is for pussy's anyways.

[Winehole23]

...

[nkdlunch]

Government healthcare covers emergency room service. Illegals get this service.

I was under the impression we ALL pay for the emergency room service right now. We all will under the new reform. nothing will change.

[jack sommerset]

Illegals can't get SS cards, can't get driver licenses. So they will probably not be able to get healthcare cards.

what sort of other IDs are you referring to?

Wake up. They can get SS cards. They can get DL. They can get jobs here in America. They can get across the borders. Perhaps we should throw them all out and you and I would not have this conversation.

[jman3000]

Illegals can't get SS cards, can't get driver licenses. So they will probably not be able to get healthcare cards.

what sort of other IDs are you referring to?

For 50 bucks you can get phoney SS cards. I'm not sure if they have information behind them, but I know for a fact you can get ones that look like the real deal... even if they have no substance behind them.

[jack sommerset]

I was under the impression we ALL pay for the emergency room service right now. We all will under the new reform. nothing will change.

Illegals don't. People who don't pay taxes don't. That impression would be wrong.

[nkdlunch]

Republicans have tried to add ammendments which require validation of citizenship for people enrolling into the plan (this is related to HB 3200). The amendments have been defeated. As it is, there is going to be an effective "don't ask, don't tell" policy for people when applying for their govt. card - of course they'll ask for the card at the hospital, or doctor's office; and the patient (legal citizen or foreigner or illegal alien) will most likely have one.

Of course Obama didn't LIE; but he certainly didn't tell the whole truth.

well then they should add that to the plan. I don't see it as being a deal breaker.

Eventhough I can see that illegals if they want to purchase this plan will actually contribute instead of like jacksomerst says get free healthcare at the ER.


but again, if this is a must for republicans. they should add it and get this passed.

[nkdlunch]

Perhaps we should throw them all out and you and I would not have this conversation.

so you would agree to this reform if there were no illegals in this country? that's good to know

[rjv]

Then Obama should not say illegals are not covered.

i think his point was that hospitals emergency rooms do not turn any one away. and this has nothing to do with obama care or any one else's health care reform agenda.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Flashback, 2005.

RBxmEGG71PM


come on darrin. this "isn't the time or place" to point out hypocrisy. clearly one little "you lie" is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more inappropriate than about half the room booing you. oh well.

[nkdlunch]

i think his point was that hospitals emergency rooms do not turn any one away. and this has nothing to do with obama care or any one else's health care reform agenda.

:tu :tu

[jack sommerset]

but again, if this is a must for republicans. they should add it and get this passed.

Remember if the democrats come together any bill they want passes without republicans having any say on the matter.

[Bartleby]

clearly one little "you lie" is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more inappropriate than about half the room booing you. oh well.

Many of Wilson's GOP colleagues seemed to think so.

[jack sommerset]

i think his point was that hospitals emergency rooms do not turn any one away. and this has nothing to do with obama care or any one else's health care reform agenda.

I get his point and it is a good one. I think Obama is being disingenuous when he say illegals won't be included or this won't cost our country one more dime.

[jman3000]

I think what Jack was hoping for him to say is that if an illegal comes in with a heart attack or an appendix about to rupture, the hospital should turn them away and let their brown ass die in the parking lot.

Nice.

[SpurNation]

Illegals can't get SS cards, can't get driver licenses. So they will probably not be able to get healthcare cards.

what sort of other IDs are you referring to?

On the contrary. Many illegals do have SS cards and driver's licenses. Fake as they may be...they're still often recognized as legit when presented as proof of identity.

[clambake]

On the contrary. Many illegals do have SS cards and driver's licenses. Fake as they may be...they're still often recognized as legit when presented as proof of identity.

will they be able to get the health coverage without paying for it, fake id or not?

[SpurNation]

will they be able to get the health coverage without paying for it, fake id or not?

Will insurance companies validate ID before granting policy?

[nkdlunch]

will they be able to get the health coverage without paying for it, fake id or not?

if they go to the ER they probably will beacuse like someone said hospitals don't turn away anyone. but also like someone said, this is already going on and is not going away with any new plan.

but if they go to a regular doctor with the fake id, you don't think the nurse is gonna have a way to check? I am sure they will like they do now.

[jman3000]

If they do an actual check on the card (which they should) and not just a quick glance, then either no information will pop up... or the information to some person who's been missing for 4 years will.

[DarrinS]

if they go to the ER they probably will beacuse like someone said hospitals don't turn away anyone. but also like someone said, this is already going on and is not going away with any new plan.

but if they go to a regular doctor with the fake id, you don't think the nurse is gonna have a way to check? I am sure they will like they do now.


I'm gonna start a business making fake Obamacare cards. Thanks for the idea.

[SpurNation]

I'm gonna start a business making fake Obamacare cards. Thanks for the idea.

There's good money to be made in providing fake ID's. Or at least there has to be. In my business I'm presented with fake ID's all the time.

[jack sommerset]

so you would agree to this reform if there were no illegals in this country? that's good to know

It would erase one issue I have. I have many. Much bigger ones. But I have to get some work done. Peace out!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

If they do an actual check on the card (which they should) and not just a quick glance, then either no information will pop up... or the information to some person who's been missing for 4 years will.


RFID's?

[clambake]

Will insurance companies validate ID before granting policy?

they do that now. besides, the doctors office will require verification.

do you think a fake SS card means they don't pay taxes?

[clambake]

I'm gonna start a business making fake Obamacare cards. Thanks for the idea.

that sounds like something you'd waste your time on.

[SpurNation]

Go to any Day Labor business...their records show employees with supposedly valid ID's of people legal to work in the United States.

[clambake]

Go to any Day Labor business...their records show employees with supposedly valid ID's of people legal to work in the United States.

thats right. and the business deducts the state and federal taxes based on the SS number, fake or not.

[ChumpDumper]

Will insurance companies validate ID before granting policy?Are the people with fake IDs going to pay premiums?

[clambake]

Are the people with fake IDs going to pay premiums?

there's a lot of newbies in this forum.

[SpurNation]

they do that now. besides, the doctors office will require verification.

do you think a fake SS card means they don't pay taxes?

I know they are trying to crack down on it better than what they have in the past.

But take for instance the landscaping/lawn care industry. There is also work visas that are allowed to migrant workers. These ID's or form of legal rights to work in the United States are primarily seasonal whereby the visa is good from March through November.

Many illegals and migrant workers produce false documentation. As it stands now...the companies that employee these workers are not required to "verify" if that documentation is correct as long as they have a copy of that documentation on file. Yes...taxes are taken out of pay their pay if their pay is hourly based. But pay could also be that as to a "sub-contractor" or 1099. On that basis...the contactor is not obligated to have visual proof of identity...just a listed SS in which to submit a 1099 to that sub-contractor.

[clambake]

I know they are trying to crack down on it better than what they have in the past.

But take for instance the landscaping/lawn care industry. There is also work visas that are allowed to migrant workers. These ID's or form of legal rights to work in the United States are primarily seasonal whereby the visa is good from March through November.

Many illegals and migrant workers produce false documentation. As it stands now...the companies that employee these workers are not required to "verify" if that documentation is correct as long as they have a copy of that documentation on file. Yes...taxes are taken out of pay their pay if their pay is hourly based. But pay could also be that as to a "sub-contractor" or 1099. On that basis...the contactor is not obligated to have visual proof of identity...just a listed SS in which to submit a 1099 to that sub-contractor.

do you want to do the impossible and round them up, or make sure they continue paying taxes?

[SpurNation]

Are the people with fake IDs going to pay premiums?

I see what your saying. As individuals...probably not. As employees of companies forced to provide health insurance under this proposed plan...why should they be concerned?

[ElNono]

Speaking as a LEGAL alien, I can tell you that after 9/11 it has become virtually impossible to obtain a valid, legal SS or DL for an illegal alien, at least in NJ.
Now, if a person goes the phony route, then they're definitely entering the falsified state or federal document terrain, a felony, and if it's a copy of somebody's else IDs, then it's identity theft, another federal felony. The illegal aliens I've known wouldn't even dare to go that route because if caught meant they had to face jail time and basically forego any chance to regularize their situation (which all of them ended up doing).

[ChumpDumper]

I see what your saying. As individuals...probably not. As employees of companies forced to provide health insurance under this proposed plan...why shold they be concerned?So they will be employed AND be paying premiums from their benefits at work?

Sounds great.

[florige]

Booing and calling the POTUS a liar on national television during a primetime speech is alot different. I didn't realize those things were like that where you could scream out crap, or even boo like what happened to Bush. I think I remember feeling sorry for Bush when that happened.

[ElNono]

And as a footnote, you would be surprised how many illegal aliens do pay taxes (through a Tax ID card). One of the requirements for a green card is to present your tax returns for the previous 3 years. Anybody that wants to move from illegal to legal if given a chance has to have that.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't approve of the booing or the catcalls. Congressional dipshits will have their time to speak afterwards.

[SpurNation]

do you want to do the impossible and round them up, or make sure they continue paying taxes?

I'm glad you brought that up. Since rounding them all up would be "impossible"...preventing all to be able not to acquire health care under this proposed plan would be impossible as well. Thus making Obama's statement regarding illegal aliens receiving care...A Lie.

[SpurNation]

So they will be employed AND be paying premiums from their benefits at work?

Sounds great.

Are you saying you condone illegal aliens receiving health care paid by actual citizens of this country?


And as a footnote, you would be surprised how many illegal aliens do pay taxes (through a Tax ID card). One of the requirements for a green card is to present your tax returns for the previous 3 years. Anybody that wants to move from illegal to legal if given a chance has to have that.

Texas, New Mexico, California and most of all the gulf coast states operate a lot different with regards to looking the other way regarding illegal alliens.

[DarrinS]

I can understand apologizing to Obama, but why would he feel the need to apologize to that scum, Rahm Emanuel? He probably felt like he needed a bath after that.

[LnGrrrR]

Government healthcare covers emergency room service. Illegals get this service.

I think the point is that it will not provide ADDITIONAL service. When he says "illegals won't be covered", he means they won't get any service they don't already get now.

[nkdlunch]

I'm glad you brought that up. Since rounding them all up would be "impossible"...preventing all to be able not to acquire health care under this proposed plan would be impossible as well. Thus making Obama's statement regarding illegal aliens receiving care...A Lie.



Do you understand the difference between having a healthcare program and getting healthcare at the emergency room in emergencies??

[jman3000]

I can understand apologizing to Obama, but why would he feel the need to apologize to that scum, Rahm Emanuel? He probably felt like he needed a bath after that.

Rahms the middle man. He probably called Rahm and apologized to Obama through Rahm.

It can't be that hard to deduce.

[BadMoodBob]

and it was idiotic from a political standpoint. Wilson may have won points with voters in his home state, but it only furthers the perception that the GOP is not interested in anything other than obstruction and party politics.

What's more, it may have the effect of helping Obama to "rally the troops" and motivate some of the blue dog dems and other reluctant supporters to get on board with his push for health care.

In 94, Republican party went from The Party of No to making Clinton out to be the obstructionist. Politics is a bitch. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Are you saying you condone illegal aliens receiving health care paid by actual citizens of this country?You just said they would be covered as part of their compensation as employees. That's actually fine with me if employers are too stupid to find out who is illegal.

[LnGrrrR]

And as a footnote, you would be surprised how many illegal aliens do pay taxes (through a Tax ID card). One of the requirements for a green card is to present your tax returns for the previous 3 years. Anybody that wants to move from illegal to legal if given a chance has to have that.

Heck elnono, it's a pain in the ass just to get a green card for someone who is here legally on a VISA. I had to do that for my wife.

[BadMoodBob]

If Obama does not mean to eventually include illegal immigrants into his healthcare plan, why was he saying 47 million people were without insurance that would get it if he were president?

If Obama does not mean to eventually include illegal immigrants into his healthcare plan, someone should tell all of these hispanic organizations who are endorsing his healthcare plan while throwing out statements including illegal immigrants.

[ElNono]

Texas, New Mexico, California and most of all the gulf coast states operate a lot different with regards to looking the other way regarding illegal alliens.

Since I travel to Texas fairly often (have family about 30 miles from the border), I couldn't agree more with you. But maybe we should work harder securing our borders and then this entire concern about illegal aliens won't be an issue.

[DarrinS]

Anyone ever watched video from the House of Commons? That shit is brutal. And, it looks like they all have a good time doing it.


Why are we so hyper-sensitive that anyone should DARE say anything to our almighty POTUS?

[BadMoodBob]

Maybe if Obama quit playing games and would actually be specific while limiting his beloved government through text in the actual bill people would actually trust him enough to contribute to REAL reform that is actually trying to focus on healthcare and not other agendas.

If Obama is such a brilliant man, he should understand how he has come off to his opposition and try extra hard to abolish this magnitude of paranoia. Instead he has the same ol' democratic political ties, trys to ram horribly constructed bills down the throat of this country, and only attempts to throw WORDS to calm the growing disent.

I have 0 faith in this country, so it'll probably work out for him. But do not be surprised by actions like Wilson's.

[ChumpDumper]

Anyone ever watched video from the House of Commons? That shit is brutal. And, it looks like they all have a good time doing it.


Why are we so hyper-sensitive that anyone should DARE say anything to our almighty POTUS?It's a speech, not Prime Minister's Questions.

Any idiot can see the difference.

Well, maybe not any idiot.

[SpurNation]

You just said they would be covered as part of their compensation as employees. That's actually fine with me if employers are too stupid to find out who is illegal.

True. But the point I was eluding to is that it would be impossible to not keep health care from those illegals in this nation...even the ones who don't have valid ID because many times there will be a way found to get around the letter of the law as to what happens now.

Obama cannot, with validity, guarantee his comment.

[clambake]

I'm glad you brought that up. Since rounding them all up would be "impossible"...preventing all to be able not to acquire health care under this proposed plan would be impossible as well. Thus making Obama's statement regarding illegal aliens receiving care...A Lie.

i'm glad you asked. do you want people to pay for their own healthcare? or do you want to continue to pay for their healthcare?

[BadMoodBob]

He can guarantee his comment because Government pulls out on their promises indirectly. They go at you from a different angle.

They will tell you YOUR taxes will not increase; only rich Whitey. Instead, government increases taxes on private insurance companies, insurance companies in return raise your premiums to cover the added cost to them, your premiums raise. You've just been taxed.

They will not cover illegal immigrants. Instead they will grant workers programs. These workers cannot work in the States without health care, so we will give them basic coverage. Illegals immigrants are now in the system. A system that is being funded by printing machines and an ever-shrinking minority. We are all paying more for decreased quality so politicians can be viewed as compassionate care-givers while they continue to make their millions on The Hill. America, Fcuk yeah!

[balli]

True. But the point I was eluding to is that it would be impossible to not keep health care from those illegals in this nation...even the ones who don't have valid ID because many times there will be a way found to get around the letter of the law as to what happens now.

Obama cannot, with validity, guarantee his comment.
That's a retarded fucking take. That's blaming Obama for the illegal actions of the anti-citizenry. And as has been pointed out, such actions are no different than what's already happening now.

There is no provision in the bill that legally pays for the healthcare of illegal immigrants. End of story.

Oh and BTW, since I'm assuming this is still a Joe Wilson thread- somebody ought to gut that piece of shit in front of his wife and kids.

[Winehole23]

Anyone ever watched video from the House of Commons? That shit is brutal. And, it looks like they all have a good time doing it.It's not the free for all you make it out to be. It only looks like it to us.

[DarrinS]

It's a speech, not Prime Minister's Questions.

Any idiot can see the difference.

Well, maybe not any idiot.


Time to change that pon.

[SpurNation]

Since I travel to Texas fairly often (have family about 30 miles from the border), I couldn't agree more with you. But maybe we should work harder securing our borders and then this entire concern about illegal aliens won't be an issue.

Agreed. But the issue of illegal alliens is as overlooked as Obama's claims of health care being overlooked.

I can't remember the numbers but do remember a report I read regarding how much government money is spent on the care of illegal alliens in this country.

The number was extraordinarily high when emcompassing all factors such as health care, government welfare received, prison populations, etc.

I'll try to find that info and post it here.

[ChumpDumper]

Time to change that pon.Should you really be posting about changing tampons from work?

[DarrinS]

Should you really be posting about changing tampons from work?


ChumpDumpe. Are all 45,768 of your posts this lame?

[DarrinS]

It's not the free for all you make it out to be. It only looks like it to us.

How so?

[ChumpDumper]

ChumpDumpe. Are all 45,768 of your posts this lame?How many of your posts are from work?

[Wild Cobra]

Booing is a little different than accusing him of lying...
But saying he lied is true!

[ChumpDumper]

But saying he lied is true!One could yell that at any president.

So what?

[SpurNation]

That's a retarded fucking take. That's blaming Obama for the illegal actions of the anti-citizenry. And as has been pointed out, such actions are no different than what's already happening now.

There is no provision in the bill that legally pays for the healthcare of illegal immigrants. End of story.

Oh and BTW, since I'm assuming this is still a Joe Wilson thread- somebody ought to gut that piece of shit in front of his wife and kids.

I never said I was blaming Obama regarding illegal actions of the anit-citizenry. All I was pointing out is that though he said..


There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.


There is no way all illegals wouldn't be receiving care under the proposed plan if it were to pass.

Of course they "wouldn't apply" but there can't be a way to insure they wouldn't receive.

[Wild Cobra]

During Obama's speech he said the illegals would not be covered. He changed number of uninsured from 47 million to 30 million. Shocking! Why did he do that? He is letting people know there was 15-17 million illegals that were counted in the orginal number and by reducing that number he is trying to let people know now he won't cover illegals as he orginally wanted too. Bullshit. That is all it is.

Now if we remove those already qualified but not enrolled for Medicaid, what do you think the number would be? What about if we remove those who can afford to buy insurance but don't?

Factcheck already says the bill will not cover illegals. They are wrong though. The only thing the bill won't cover in the current form is "affordability credits" to illegal immigrants. Everything else is still on the table for illegal immigrants.

[clambake]

I never said I was blaming Obama regarding illegal actions of the anit-citizenry. All I was pointing out is that though he said..


There is no way all illegals wouldn't be receiving care under the proposed plan if it were to pass.

Of course they "wouldn't apply" but there can't be a way to insure they wouldn't receive.

i wonder if some of the things you say will ever dawn on you.

[Wild Cobra]

Speaking as a LEGAL alien, I can tell you that after 9/11 it has become virtually impossible to obtain a valid, legal SS or DL for an illegal alien, at least in NJ.

It never was legal to get a SS card and for illegal immigrants. If someone was issuing them, they belong in jail.

[Winehole23]

How so?The harrumphing and catcalling is restrained, elaborate, impersonal forms of address are used, and back-benchers receive exquisite courtesy. You obviously haven't watched it carefully. The unruliness of PM's questions is more stylized than spontaneous, and it is mainly aimed at party principals who are mugging for the cameras.

The English are very eccentric -- it's practically a national trait -- and they do have their own eccentric decorum, in its own way no less exacting than our own. A member interrupting the PM directly to say "you lie" would go over no better there than it did here.

[DarrinS]

How many of your posts are from work?


You tell me. You're the one who's strangely obsessed with what I do at my office.

[DarrinS]

The harrumphing and catcalling is restrained, elaborate, impersonal forms of address are used, and back-benchers receive exquisite courtesy. You obviously haven't watched it carefully. The unruliness of PM's questions is more stylized than spontaneous, and it is mainly aimed at party principals who are mugging for the cameras.

The English are very eccentric -- it's practically a national trait -- and they do have their own eccentric decorum, in its own way no less exacting than our own. A member interrupting the PM directly to say "you lie" would go over no better there than it did here.


Well, I have seen PM Brown look like he was getting a little pissed from time to time.

[ChumpDumper]

You tell me. You're the one who's strangely obsessed with what I do at my office.You're the one strangely obsessed with tampons -- so much that you post about them from work.

[Winehole23]

Your point?

Comparing PM's Questions -- a question and answer session -- to a Presidential speech, really isn't apt.

[ElNono]

It never was legal to get a SS card and for illegal immigrants. If someone was issuing them, they belong in jail.

Loopholes. You used to be able to obtain a SS card with your Tax ID card. Tax ID cards are issued without checking for immigration papers (The IRS is happy to take money from anybody). Driver licences used to require a lot less paperwok also, and international licences used to be quickly accepted. All this has changed since 9/11.

[SpurNation]

i wonder if some of the things you say will ever dawn on you.

What's undawning about this..

"There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

What is false about the claim if illegals already find a way to utelize government programs now. They will find a way to be able to utelize this (or any other plan) if it should pass.

Maybe he wasn't intentionally lying more so than being extremely narcisstic regarding his beliefs of illegal alliens and how much they drain this country of tax payer money.

[DarrinS]

Your point?

Comparing PM's Questions -- a question and answer session -- to a Presidential speech, really isn't apt.



Well, we don't have a similar forum in the US, so there's really no way to do an apples-apples comparison. It just doesn't appear to me that the Brits have the save reverence for PM that US legislators have for POTUS.

[DarrinS]

I just incremented my count of useless posts. Yipeee!

[ChumpDumper]

Well, we don't have a similar forum in the US, so there's really no way to do an apples-apples comparison. It just doesn't appear to me that the Brits have the save reverence for PM that US legislators have for POTUS.If you can show a PM being called a liar regularly during speeches, you might have a point. As it is your only point is that MPs react during PMs Questions, which is set up as a give and take in the first place.

[ChumpDumper]

I just incremented my count of useless posts.

From work!

Yipeee!

[ElNono]

Factcheck already says the bill will not cover illegals. They are wrong though. The only thing the bill won't cover in the current form is "affordability credits" to illegal immigrants. Everything else is still on the table for illegal immigrants.

I thought factcheck was not on your list of reliable sources since I pointed out their article that proves that lowering taxes doesn't increase revenue. Do you have any other sources to back up your claim? You know, I wouldn't want you to be slandering the POTUS or TOTUS... :rolleyes

[Winehole23]

Well, we don't have a similar forum in the US, so there's really no way to do an apples-apples comparison. It just doesn't appear to me that the Brits have the save reverence for PM that US legislators have for POTUS.But they do for the Queen.

[DarrinS]

But they do for the Queen.


Damn, so Obama is royalty now?


EDIT> I retract this question. It is obvious that he is.

[SpurNation]

Regarding the "topic" of this thread.

It was the presidents platform to speak. Not any member of congress. Premature remarks during this time are not protocol in our government. I could care less how other governments conduct their business.

That said...if those remarks were made after the speech...Wilson would have been correct in making them.

[Wild Cobra]

I thought factcheck was not on your list of reliable sources since I pointed out their article that proves that lowering taxes doesn't increase revenue. Do you have any other sources to back up your claim? You know, I wouldn't want you to be slandering the POTUS or TOTUS... :rolleyes
OMG...

Read the bill (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf)!

Fact[less] Check is flat out wrong!

I only looked at the Factcheck article (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/) because I do look for other information to see both sides. It was linked to a Joe Wilson article I read. At first, I though maybe he was wrong, until I looked up what FactlessCheck said.

[Winehole23]

Damn, so Obama is royalty now?God, you're dumb. We were talking about England and how it's DIFFERENT.

Asking that US legislators observe customary AMERICAN decorum does not elevate Obama to the level of British royalty.

[Winehole23]

Plus which, if you let Joe Wilson off the hook, you forfeit any credibility to complain about Dems booing Bush in the 2005 SOTU.

[ChumpDumper]

NFactcheck already says the bill will not cover illegals. They are wrong though. The only thing the bill won't cover in the current form is "affordability credits" to illegal immigrants. Everything else is still on the table for illegal immigrants.Everything?

What does that mean?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Plus which, if you let Joe Wilson off the hook, you forfeit any credibility to complain about Dems booing Bush in the 2005 SOTU.


uhh. i think that's darrins point he's trying to get across.

[Winehole23]

uhh. i think that's darrins point he's trying to get across.He was arguing the reverse IMO -- that we should all loosen up and allow a bit of English cheekiness.

[rjv]

damn those illegal aliens. now they are responsible for the eradication of civility on capitol hill !!!!

[LnGrrrR]

Disregard... question was answered upthread.

[sam1617]

He was arguing the reverse IMO -- that we should all loosen up and allow a bit of English cheekiness.

Thats what I would argue. I love watching Britain's House of Commons.

[Winehole23]

Thats what I would argue. I love watching Britain's House of Commons.I love watching it too. But what works for them wouldn't here. Pretty soon, Capitol Hill would be like WWE. We don't do that in our representative bodies. I disagree that it would be a good thing if we did. The fake dignity of our proceedings fosters real order in the process.

[sam1617]

I love watching it too. But what works for them wouldn't here. Pretty soon, Capitol Hill would be like WWE. We don't do that in our representative bodies. I disagree that it would be a good thing if we did. The fake dignity of our proceedings fosters real order in the process.

Perhaps, but at least people would be aware of something going on in congress, unlike now.

[SouthernFried]

I don't want order in our process. I don't want DC politics as usual. It was never designed to be orderly. It was designed to be confrontational...that's what the seperation of powers is all about. To put them at each others throats, and make them watch each other like hawks. I want them all calling each other liars and theives...cuz that's what most of them are.

The more "orderly" and polite they are...the more crap they shove down our throats. If your looking for DC to do shit for you...I can understand you being upset. Personally, I see nothing good coming from govt right now, so I want them fighting like cats. I want this congress to do absolutely nothing. They've already screwed the future of this country for the next couple of generations at least. That's enuf already.

And didn't they usta have duels...this "you lie" comment is nothing.

[ChumpDumper]

It was never designed to be orderly.:lmao

[LnGrrrR]

I don't want order in our process. I don't want DC politics as usual. It was never designed to be orderly. It was designed to be confrontational...that's what the seperation of powers is all about. To put them at each others throats, and make them watch each other like hawks. I want them all calling each other liars and theives...cuz that's what most of them are.


Uhm... it wasn't designed to be disorderly. They occasionally did have duels, and shouting matches, yes. And politics were dirty then, as they were now. But it wasn't meant to be a shouting match. There's a reason they wore wigs, after all. Decorum and whatnot.

[Yonivore]

Did George Bush ever call any of his critics liars? In a speech to a joint session of Congress? Has any previous president ever done that? Not that I recall. In fact, I vividly recall being upset with President Bush because, in the face of unrelenting demonizing, from the Left – who routinely called him a liar, a criminal, and worse; in all sorts of venues, domestically and abroad – he maintained civility and simply responded that reasonable people disagree and that his colleagues on the other side of the aisle weren’t evil or liars, they were just wrong.

President Obama stood up there and flatly called his, and his plan’s, critics liars. And, considering his White House released a pre-speech statement that specifically targeted former Governor (and Republican Vice Presidential candidate) Sarah Palin, his statement during the speech are not much different than those of Congressman Wilson. He called Sarah Palin a liar…and, he did it in the prestigious, hallowed well of the United States House of Representatives…before a joint session of Congress…to which he was invited. Why isn’t Obama being held to account for his obvious lack of Congressional decorum and civility?

But, back to Wilson. I really think most Americans are going to find it difficult to get exercised about his momentary lapse in temperament. After all, someone who encourages his supporters to, “get in their face,” and “punch back twice as hard,” has little standing to cry foul when he is similarly confronted. It stands to reason, if you want to benefit from traditions of decorum and civility, you should respect them – and that has hardly been a trait of this administration which goes out of its way to demonize and shout down opponents.

I also say, this is logical outcome of 8 years of gross incivility toward a Republican President. I’m not saying it’s right but, Wilson isn’t a minority party leader in the House – he’s just one of approximately 175 Republicans, a back-bencher at that. There’s going to be a hot head somewhere…and, I guess he was it. I challenge you to look back at other joint sessions and regard the behavior of Democrats at speeches given by President Bush. Booing, jeering, silly facial expressions, sitting on hands, and all sorts of audible and visible demonstrations of derision and disrespect…and childishness. I challenge you to find a leading, significant, or prominent Democrat member of Congress (Joe Lieberman being a notable exception) who didn’t, sometime in the past 8 years, publicly call President Bush a liar or worse.

Well, I think we’ve heard how the Left is going to try and spin this to their advantage. Just like they tried to infer the swastika-bearing LaRouchites, at town hall meetings, represented everyone who opposed the President’s call for reform, they’re going to paint Congressman Wilson as representative of all Republicans. Someone over at Politico is claiming this is going to galvanize the Democrats and will result in passage of HR3200. All I’ve got to say is, if those 44 or 47 Democrats – already on record as declaring they will not vote for a bill with (or without) the “public” option, are compelled to pass legislation out of some sense of righteous indignation over the President being called a liar by some minor politician, their constituents will send them packing next November – and they know it.

Let me “recalibrate” that last statement. I’m not sure, at all, this is how the Left will tack on the outburst. (I’m leaving it in because, it’s possible they’ll attempt it none-the-less). But, I just heard Vice President Biden’s comments (from Good Morning America this morning) and, to his credit, he attempted to put the whole matter into some semblance of a proper perspective.


"Because if you notice what also happened immediately, member of his own party denounced what he said and how he demeaned the Congress and he apologized. So I think the real message here is how quickly the republican leadership distanced themselves from the congressman's assertion,"

He said a bit more that was complimentary of the Republican response to Congressman Wilson’s outburst but, not surprisingly, I’m having a difficult time finding the entire quote on the intertube webs. Hopefully, a video will be posted soon, by someone…it was quite remarkable. Anyway, I applaud his sense of comity and his refusal to attempt and blow this out of proportion for political gain.

I do wonder, however, if he feels the same about his boss’s similar lack of decorum during the speech…

President Obama has similarly accepted Congressman Wilson’s apology so, I guess any attempt to use this to their advantage won’t get the Democrats very far.

Of course, it could be the President and Vice President are just going to leave the red meat attacks to someone else. Only time will tell.

In the end, none of this will change anything…just like the speech won’t change anything. It is just another wasted hour of television by the networks. I’m sure they’re getting fed up with all of Obama’s demands for air time only to watch it go to naught.

Now, let’s not lose sight of the fact Congressman Wilson was right. President Obama is lying when he claims illegal aliens will not be eligible for health care/insurance under his plan. We were all led to believe President Obama would take the podium last night and detail his health care reform plan. He didn’t. The only ObamaCare plan he has endorsed, is HR3200…demanding Congress pass it before the August recess. So, absent an official Obama plan [he didn’t hold one up last night or give us the url to view it online] and, taking his support of HR3200 at face value – without excepting the provisions giving illegal aliens eligibility – we can only conclude that, indeed, Obama’s plan will cover illegal aliens.

So, let’s look at HR3200 – the only written plan yet endorsed by President Obama.

There is nothing in HR3200 excluding illegal aliens from the various coverage provisions – (with a few limited exceptions). The Congressional Research Service (CRS) agrees ( http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/R40773_20090825.pdf) in a report (at the link) titled, “Treatment of Non-Citizens in H.R. 3200.” For example, the CRS found:

H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on non-citizens – whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently – participating in the Exchange.

And, although they may not have mentioned it, I’ve also read there are provisions prohibiting the requirement of demonstrating proof of residency or citizenship when applying for coverage under ObamaCare.

Since the Obama administration wanted a full House vote passing HR3200 prior to the August recess, Obama was okay with a bill that included illegal aliens. Does that make him a liar? Yep.

One of the talking points coming out of the Obama camp is that Obama wasn’t lying because Section 246, of H.R. 3200, specifically excludes illegal aliens from receiving Individual Affordability Credits. While that is true, it doesn’t exculpate the president. In fact, it is the exception which proves the rule. It only applies to the IAC’s and, since similar exclusionary language is absent from the other, critical aspects of the government health system (including health care exchanges), -- and, since we can’t require applicants for coverage to demonstrate their citizenship – any good lawyer [and I presume his supporters consider Obama one of those] would recognize by specifically excluding illegal aliens from one narrow provision of the bill without doing so for other sections or, better, in a blanket provision covering the entire act, necessarily means illegal aliens are not excluded from other provisions.

Oh yeah, how ‘bout the lies I predicted yesterday?

President Obama will say there are 42 to 47 (it changes) million uninsured Americans.

Well, I got that one wrong but, in a very bizarre way. He threw out a new figure – 30 million. WTF? Where’d the other 16 million go? Hell, at this rate, we can just forget reform and wait. By November, the crisis of the uninsured will completely vanish. The Census Bureau even came out with a report, today, that says there are 46 million uninsured people in America.

But wait! Senator John McCain helpfully tells us where the 16 million went. When Matt Lauer asked him if Wilson was right, did Obama lie, McCain defended Obama by pointing out – (paraphrasing) – he lowered the number of uninsured from 47 million to 30 million so, of course, that means he’s taken the illegals out of the equation.

Tell the authors of HR3200 that. After all, it’s the legislation on the table, the “plan” Obama insisted be voted through to his desk by the end of August. Changing the numbers doesn’t change the text of the bill.

And, I don’t recall him asking the Democrats to change anything in HR3200 last night.

President Obama will say his plan is “deficit neutral.”


"Here's what you need to know. [<< wasn’t that one of the drinking game/bingo phrases? -- Y.] First, I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits – either now or in the future. Period. And to prove that I'm serious, there will be a provision in this plan that requires us to come forward with more spending cuts if the savings we promised don't materialize."

Every serious analysis, including the one performed by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), concluding up to $2 Trillion MORE dollars will be added to the deficit to pay for this atrocious socialism, contradicts that statement. We do not have the money…but, more importantly, how can anyone believe we’ll add 30-47 million uninsured Americans to the pool, cover every condition – pre-existing or not, previously covered or not – and not add a single dime to the deficit? It’s nonsensical. Seriously, where is he going to get the money? No place. He’s lying.

President Obama will identify the “obstacles” to this progressive and necessary reform as one or more of the various demons he’s invoked since he started this crusade. Most certainly, Republicans will head that list; but, you’re just as likely to hear about the money-grubbing insurance companies or, even, the tonsil-stealing, foot-amputating doctors.

There was a lot of complaining about, and demonizing of, the opposition but, calling Sarah Palin a liar pretty much makes this prediction accurate.

President Obama will claim his opponents – and, Republicans in particular – don’t have an alternative plan; that they are satisfied with the status quo and want to do nothing.


I will not accept the status quo as a solution. Not this time. Not now. Everyone in this room knows what will happen if we do nothing. Our deficit will grow. More families will go bankrupt. More business will close. More Americans will lose their coverage when they are sick and need it the most. And more will die as a result. We know these things to be true.”
I threw in that last part as a prime example of the President’s fear-mongering…just ‘cause, it’s my post and I can. Anyway, I will give him this. Elsewhere in his speech, he did mention a couple of Republican proposals that he admitted had merit and should be “discussed” – one, made by President Bush – he said he would direct his HHS Secretary to pilot in some states. (We’ll see).

Nonetheless, he eventually came back to the inference that his opponents want the status quo – to do nothing.

President Obama will say the “public” option won’t be subsidized.


"Despite all this, the insurance companies and their allies don't like this idea [the “public” option]. They argue that these private companies can't fairly compete with the government. And they'd be right if taxpayers were subsidizing this public insurance option. But they won't be. I have insisted that like any private insurance company, the public insurance option would have to be self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects. But by avoiding some of the overhead that gets eaten up at private companies by profits, excessive administrative costs and executive salaries, it could provide a good deal for consumers."
Social Security was to be paid for out of the Social Security Trust Fund which, in turn was to be enriched by Social Security Taxes collected from workers who would eventually receive a return on that “investment” through Social Security Payments in their retirement years. Social Security is bankrupt because Congress looted their trust fund and now, it is heavily subsidized just so the federal government can meet its obligations to those who are entitled a return on their forced “investment.” Even so, it is near collapse and literally insolvent.

Medicare and Medicaid similarly were to be paid for out of taxes extracted from our collective incomes. Health care is expensive and government programs, particularly large ones, are notorious for fraud, waste, and inefficiency. Because of this, both Medicare and Medicaid are – just like Social Security – insolvent and near collapse.

The United States Postal Service should exist on the profits from the sales of postal products and services. It doesn’t and, it can’t compete with UPS and FedEx; so, it is heavily subsidized.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? :lmao

The FHA and the FDIC? Broke and being subsidized to meet their obligations.

Amtrak is supposed to operate on profits from ticket sales? Who wants to ride the train at prices more exorbitant than air travel? Subsidized.

I’m sure I’m missing some but, the point is, how in the world – with all the subsidizing of government enterprises, originally designed to pay for themselves, do you expect yet one more government program to operate in the black? It’s not going to happen. You will be subsidizing ObamaCare because, if it passes, it will operate in the red. I guarantee it.

[clambake]

who are you today, yoni?

[hater]

that copy n paste is very handy to some

[clambake]

that copy n paste is very handy to some

if you think about it........the only thing yoni hasn't stolen is his "black experience."

[PGDynasty24]

It's a lost cause to some of the people in this thread. Non-republicans cant win a arguement in a board with a bunch of southern republicans who still believe that bush was a good president. What Wilson does was disgraceful and then you have the other republican holding those papers with their proposals for a health-care plan and then that guy with a white board. As a Poster in here early said: South + Black President = What happened yesterday

[hope4dopes]

Thanks, I like to think it shows off my congenial side. The event documented in the photo also fits in well with my response to hope4dopes...



Pete Stark was the recognized speaker at the time he made those remarks. I won't agree with or condemn anything he said while he was recognized on the floor, other than to say his comments were made after Bush's actions (and the consequences) had convinced him, in his life experience, that Bush was a rotten "decider." Joe Wilson was not the recognized speaker when he yelled at the President of the United States. But even then, I don't think it was really much of a bad thing when he's got his supporters in SC probably happy to see him stand up to the big bag black man trying to turn their beloved country into a socialist leaning power-sharing shadow of its former self. I can't help but feel Wilson made the right move for himself, and that's what politics is all about.

I'm pretty shallow and uninformed, but I don't know any decision Obama has made that was based on a lie or fear that caused the violent deaths of Americans, let alone America's protectors. I understand people don't want to let him make those mistakes, so they criticize and yell to shake his focus. But niggahs please, let's reserve the hate for when Obama does something really fucked up like choke on pretzel. He did win the popular vote afterall. :downspin:


Wow. so this is what the left has turned to defend the indefensable. HEY IF YOU QUESTION OBAMA YOUR A RACIST SO SHUT UP HONKY. Fuck you apparently you weren't plugged in when old teddy kennedy bought the farm the conservatives on this board were ESTATIC they didn't give a shit if the socialist is white, black or brown they just don't like socialists, your chicken shit dismissal of whites in south carolina is about as astute as The revrends Wright and Farrahkans dismissal of whites and jews.
Also you apparently don't have a clue to who pete stark is or his past behavior in congress he has a reputation of being a bully and letting his mouth get his ass in trouble.Yet you defend his accusation of bush as a murderer, you assume Stark has some kind of divine sight which mr. wilson lacks because of course he is a stupid bubba from the south, and your defense is Well he called him a sadistic murderer but the POINT is he followed protocol...? please.

[nuclearfm]

Wow. so this is what the left has turned to defend the indefensable. HEY IF YOU QUESTION OBAMA YOUR A RACIST SO SHUT UP HONKY. Fuck you apparently you weren't plugged in when old teddy kennedy bought the farm the conservatives on this board were ESTATIC they didn't give a shit if the socialist is white, black or brown they just don't like socialists, your chicken shit dismissal of whites in south carolina is about as astute as The revrends Wright and Farrahkans dismissal of whites and jews.
Also you apparently don't have a clue to who pete stark is or his past behavior in congress he has a reputation of being a bully and letting his mouth get his ass in trouble.Yet you defend his accusation of bush as a murderer, you assume Stark has some kind of divine sight which mr. wilson lacks because of course he is a stupid bubba from the south, and your defense is Well he called him a sadistic murderer but the POINT is he followed protocol...? please.

You need to get a little bit more angry. try typing in all caps.
FaEJA3Ifh6s

[nuclearfm]

It's a lost cause to some of the people in this thread. Non-republicans cant win a arguement in a board with a bunch of southern republicans who still believe that bush was a good president. What Wilson does was disgraceful and then you have the other republican holding those papers with their proposals for a health-care plan and then that guy with a white board. As a Poster in here early said: South + Black President = What happened yesterday

Joe Wilson is not a racist, so don't start there. Does interrupting the first black president in history during speech make you a racist? Does working for Strom thurmond's advocacy of segregation make you a racist? Does pushing agenda that punished illegal immigrants solely and not employers make you a racist?

No.

[hope4dopes]

You need to get a little bit more angry. try typing in all caps.
FaEJA3Ifh6s

I'm sorry if you got that impression, I wasn't trying to come across as angry.
Were you trying to come across as an adolecent dumbshit scrawling graffitti in the boys room.

[exstatic]

and so it begins. love the internet

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2598/3904891239_94853f3c42_o.png


south +black president =no surprise

Win. I'm just surprised he didn't say "lying ######!"

[Yonivore]

Win. I'm just surprised he didn't say "lying ######!"
Really? Why?

[boutons_deux]

Magic Negro called Whott's girlfriend, the lying pitbull bitch, future resident of Mt Rushmore, a liar, and Whott's hurt.

Whott was pissed at dubya because What-Me-Worry wouldn't retaliate.

Now that Magic Negro retaliates against the lies, Whott's pissed again.

:lol fucking hypocrite

[boutons_deux]

Obama speech disrupter a health industry darling (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/10/obama-speech-disrupter-a-health-industry-darling/)


"In fact, over his entire congressional career, health professionals represent Wilson’s top industry contributors, donating a total of $244,196 to his campaign, according to the Center for Responsive Politics OpenSecrets.org database (http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/industries.php?cycle=Career&cid=N00024809&type=I). He received another $86,150 from pharmaceutical companies, $73,050 from insurance companies and $68,000 from hospitals and nursing homes."

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/10/obama-speech-disrupter-a-health-industry-darling/

[boutons_deux]

"Opponent of 'You Lie' Rep. raises $405,000 in a day"


http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/09/opponent-of-you-lie-rep-raises-50000-overnight/

It's gonna cost the health industry lobbyists a lot more to get their asshole re-elected. :lol

[Yonivore]

And Obama is a union darling & the SEIU stands to benefit greatly if ObamaCare is passed.

Your point?

[exstatic]

Really? Why?

Because he's a segregationist.

[boutons_deux]

South Carolina is a on roll. First Sanford and now this asshole. :lol

[Yonivore]

Because he's a segregationist.
Still? After all these years? This is, of course, presuming he shared Strom Thurmond's view of segregation.

Is it guilt by association and, if not, does he still hold those views?

[Nbadan]

Look at all those surprised faces around Wilson

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20090910/capt.photo_1252549803649-7-0.jpg

[Yonivore]

Look at all those surprised faces around Wilson

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/afp/20090910/capt.photo_1252549803649-7-0.jpg
Looks to me like the word "lie" is still coming out of his mouth; and, you expect there to be a reaction already?

:lmao

Hell, it could be the word "you," even. He only shouted those two...and, in the picture, he's obviously yelling.

[Nbadan]

The party of NO!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/3906798669_a7e23f15a8_o.jpg
Grumpy white men (and woman)

[Yonivore]

The party of NO!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3480/3906798669_a7e23f15a8_o.jpg
Grumpy white men (and woman)
Identical pictures of Democrats doing the same during Bush's speeches exist.

Snapshots in time.

So, back to the topic...is Wilson a segregationist?

[LnGrrrR]

LMAO

What's up with the pro-wrestling like sign? That's hilarious.

I can't wait to see one of these signs at the next one...

N o!
O ur

D ear
E lders
M ay
S uffer!

[George Gervin's Afro]

South Carolina is a on roll. First Sanford and now this asshole. :lol

but the GOP is making a comeback..:lmao

[Yonivore]

Because he's a segregationist.
Are you done discussing this exstatic?

What makes him a segregationist?

[boutons_deux]

And then there's that Repug Duvall in Orange County, a hard-core family values guy, boasting into an open mic about TWO bitches he's bagging, one is a lobbyist to his committee.

[boutons_deux]

and then there's Repug Ensign in NV banging a lady. His parents paid off the cuckholded husband.

The Repug Hits Just Keep Cummin! :lol

[iggypop123]

the republicans need to pimp out jindal or somebody that isnt a white southerner. heck even a woman would except for you know who.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, let's talk about Republicans fucking because we sure as hell don't want to talk about Democrats fucking up.

[boutons_deux]

Let's talk about Repugs fucking up the country.

[Marcus Bryant]

Let's talk about Repugs fucking up the country.

Who are "Repugs"?

[ElNono]

OMG...

Read the bill (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf)!

Fact[less] Check is flat out wrong!

I only looked at the Factcheck article (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/) because I do look for other information to see both sides. It was linked to a Joe Wilson article I read. At first, I though maybe he was wrong, until I looked up what FactlessCheck said.

I still don't see where's the evidence supporting your vague contention.
Are you absolutely sure you're not slandering the POTUS/TOTUS?

[Wild Cobra]

I still don't see where's the evidence supporting your vague contention.
Are you absolutely sure you're not slandering the POTUS/TOTUS?
To say he lied is not slander. It is fact.

Show me where HB 3200 keeps illegals from being covered please. It only doesn't allow them to have "affordability credits," but how many file a tax return anyway?

[Winehole23]

Illegals filing taxes? I'd think you'd be for that, WC.

[boutons_deux]

http://cloudfront.mediamattersaction.org/static/images/lie.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

To say he lied is not slander. It is fact.

Show me where HB 3200 keeps illegals from being covered please. It only doesn't allow them to have "affordability credits," but how many file a tax return anyway?

He may have lied in the technical sense, but I'm guessing the point he was making was that illegal citizens will not be given free healthcare like legal citizens.

Of course, if you want to brag, I can pull out one of my favorite Futurama quotes. "You sir, are technically correct... the best kind of correct."

[ElNono]

To say he lied is not slander. It is fact.

Show me where HB 3200 keeps illegals from being covered please. It only doesn't allow them to have "affordability credits," but how many file a tax return anyway?

Actually you need to back up your own claim: basically define what 'Everything else' means and where the bill grants these priviledges to illegal aliens. Since you provided the proposed bill, I'm sure you already know where this text is, right?

And as far as how many illegal aliens file tax returns, in my experience is most of them. If they ever hope to have any kind of immigration sponsorship to become legal residents/citizens, they need 3 years of tax returns at hand.
Unless it's one of those workers that come to work only for the summer, I would argue most of them do file a return.

[Yonivore]

http://cloudfront.mediamattersaction.org/static/images/lie.jpg
Nothing in the subtitle prevents illegal aliens from getting free, tax-payer subsidized health care either.

Who pays the bills when they show up at the emergency room sick or injured and cannot pay?

You guessed it. The taxpayer.

If HR3200 (or whatever plan the President finally proposes) doesn't address this issue, by default, the plan includes health care and health insurance for illegal aliens.

What health insurance you ask? The health insurance established by the law that prohibits hospitals from denying treatment.

The President lied.

[LnGrrrR]

Nothing in the subtitle prevents illegal aliens from getting free, tax-payer subsidized health care either.

Who pays the bills when they show up at the emergency room sick or injured and cannot pay?

You guessed it. The taxpayer.

If HR3200 (or whatever plan the President finally proposes) doesn't address this issue, by default, the plan includes health care and health insurance for illegal aliens.

What health insurance you ask? The health insurance established by the law that prohibits hospitals from denying treatment.

The President lied.

So what's your solution Yonivore?

Do you propose that hospitals check the legality of all patients admitted in emergency rooms?

[ElNono]

Nothing in the subtitle prevents illegal aliens from getting free, tax-payer subsidized health care either.

Who pays the bills when they show up at the emergency room sick or injured and cannot pay?

You guessed it. The taxpayer.

If HR3200 (or whatever plan the President finally proposes) doesn't address this issue, by default, the plan includes health care and health insurance for illegal aliens.

What health insurance you ask? The health insurance established by the law that prohibits hospitals from denying treatment.

The President lied.

In a nutshell they're getting exactly the same, not more and not less than what they're getting now. Thanks for making the point.

[Yonivore]

So what's your solution Yonivore?

Do you propose that hospitals check the legality of all patients admitted in emergency rooms?
If they present with non-emergency, non-life-threatening conditions, yes...and deny care, referring them to their country of origin.

If they present with life-threatening conditions, stabilize and transport to their country of origin if -- the transport would be cheaper than the continued treatment. If it would be cheaper to treat them, do so and then have them deported when they're well enough to be.

[Winehole23]

So what's your solution Yonivore?

Do you propose that hospitals check the legality of all patients admitted in emergency rooms?Even if mandated, hospitals wouldn't do it. Something called the Hippocratic oath, or some such liberal swill.

[Yonivore]

In a nutshell they're getting exactly the same, not more and not less than what they're getting now. Thanks for making the point.
The point is that illegal aliens are a huge drain on existing resources and, without resolving it, it continues to be a large part of the cost of medical care. Health care reform should address.

Obama standing up and saying illegal aliens won't get health insurance under my plan is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. They're getting health insurance now and they'll continue to get it in the future.

[Winehole23]

...

[ElNono]

There's actually an industry behind things like taking pregnant illegal aliens to deliver in US hospitals then back to their countries. It's actually a major problem.
But the solution doesn't isn't to deny emergency care. The solution is to actually secure the borders.

[LnGrrrR]

If they present with non-emergency, non-life-threatening conditions, yes...and deny care, referring them to their country of origin.

If they present with life-threatening conditions, stabilize and transport to their country of origin if -- the transport would be cheaper than the continued treatment. If it would be cheaper to treat them, do so and then have them deported when they're well enough to be.

I'm pretty sure that's how it would work. Isn't that how it works now with legal citizens who are uninsured?

Edit: Minus the deportation obviously :lol

[Yonivore]

Even if mandated, hospitals wouldn't do it. Something called the Hippocratic oath, or some such liberal swill.
Yeah, well, Obama has the perfect Health Care Czar for that. Rahm Emmanuel's brother, Zeke, isn't so keen on the Hippocratic Oath.

Look, I wasn't saying let them die on the emergency room floor. Save their lives, stabilize them, and send them home. If they show up with a toothache, give them directions to the airport, bus station, or whatever.

[Yonivore]

I'm pretty sure that's how it would work. Isn't that how it works now with legal citizens who are uninsured?

Edit: Minus the deportation obviously :lol
No. Otherwise, the emergency rooms wouldn't be packed every day like a free clinic.

[LnGrrrR]

The point is that illegal aliens are a huge drain on existing resources and, without resolving it, it continues to be a large part of the cost of medical care. Health care reform should address.

Obama standing up and saying illegal aliens won't get health insurance under my plan is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. They're getting health insurance now and they'll continue to get it in the future.

Yes, but the point Obama was trying to make is that they won't get the universal health care that all citizens will. I doubt he was trying to imply that they'd found a magical way to stop illegal citizens from going to the emergency room.

[LnGrrrR]

No. Otherwise, the emergency rooms wouldn't be packed every day like a free clinic.

I have no clue, as I've only gone to military hospitals. I would assume that emergency care should be just for that; emergency care.

If it ISN'T an emergency, don't hospitals have the right to turn away patients? I'm assuming they don't because emergency rooms = more money.

[ElNono]

The point is that illegal aliens are a huge drain on existing resources and, without resolving it, it continues to be a large part of the cost of medical care. Health care reform should address.

It shouldn't. DHS should address the fact that we have very permeable borders. That's where the problem actually is.


Obama standing up and saying illegal aliens won't get health insurance under my plan is disingenuous at best and a lie at worst. They're getting health insurance now and they'll continue to get it in the future.

They're not getting health insurance because they're not getting it now either. No insurance company is involved at all whatsoever in emergency treatment for somebody that has no insurance.

And FWIW, most every country provide emergency medical service regardless of immigration status, and they still do so at a fraction of the cost of what we spend on health.

[Yonivore]

""Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others" (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).
I know, he meant this in terms of rationing care to those with poor "quality adjusted" life expectancies but, he could just as easily apply the rationale to illegal aliens, no?

[Winehole23]

Look, I wasn't saying let them die on the emergency room floor. Save their lives, stabilize them, and send them home. If they show up with a toothache, give them directions to the airport, bus station, or whatever.Given the inexperience of hospitals in matters of immigration and the always inveterate incompetence of government, is it conceivable to you that such a policy might -- nay, inevitably would -- eventually lead to US citizens being deported erroneously?

[Yonivore]

It shouldn't. DHS should address the fact that we have very permeable borders. That's where the problem actually is.
That's another argument. I'm talking about not letting them use our hospitals as free clinics. That could be addressed in health care reform.


They're not getting health insurance because they're not getting it now either. No insurance company is involved at all whatsoever in emergency treatment for somebody that has no insurance.
Free care, at tax-payer expense, is health insurance.


And FWIW, most every country provide emergency medical service regardless of immigration status, and they still do so at a fraction of the cost of what we spend on health.
I'm not saying deny emergency care.

[ElNono]

What's the point of shipping them back if they'll be back in the hospital 6 months later, after they crossed the border again? See where the problem is?

[Wild Cobra]

Actually you need to back up your own claim: basically define what 'Everything else' means and where the bill grants these priviledges to illegal aliens. Since you provided the proposed bill, I'm sure you already know where this text is, right?
It doesn't have to say it grants them to illegal aliens. By not addressing the subject, they are covered in all other areas.

And as far as how many illegal aliens file tax returns, in my experience is most of them. If they ever hope to have any kind of immigration sponsorship to become legal residents/citizens, they need 3 years of tax returns at hand.
Unless it's one of those workers that come to work only for the summer, I would argue most of them do file a return.
Are you sure they are illegal? They aren't suppose to work without being here legally some how. I'm pretty sure there is a prevision that the cannot get legal residency if they broke the immigration laws. They could be here legally visiting, have a work visa, etc. You sure they are illegal?

If you are helping criminals, it can affect your immigration status. Did you know that? If they are illegal, I suggest you turn them in.

[Yonivore]

Given the inexperience of hospitals in matters of immigration and the always inveterate incompetence of government, is it conceivable to you that such a policy might -- nay, inevitably would -- eventually lead to US citizens being deported erroneously?
There's a word for this -- justifying an argument through the suggestion of a far-fetched consequence -- I just can't think of it right now.

[ElNono]

That's another argument. I'm talking about not letting them use our hospitals as free clinics. That could be addressed in health care reform.

I'm not saying deny emergency care.

That's an oxymoron.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, but the point Obama was trying to make is that they won't get the universal health care that all citizens will. I doubt he was trying to imply that they'd found a magical way to stop illegal citizens from going to the emergency room.
Get over it you Obamapologist. He lied. Very simple.

[Yonivore]

What's the point of shipping them back if they'll be back in the hospital 6 months later, after they crossed the border again? See where the problem is?
No, I don't.

I'm for Immigration reform too but, that's another issue.

If could analogize your argument in terms of the current debate, It would be like saying why discharge a COPD patient from the hospital...after all, they're going to be back in the hospital 6 months from now.

[nuclearfm]

Looks like the far right nutjobs (all reminiscences of rational conservatism gone) have decided to cloud their argument with the illegal immigrant debate.

l8ZJu-f-XOE

[Wild Cobra]

I know, he meant this in terms of rationing care to those with poor "quality adjusted" life expectancies but, he could just as easily apply the rationale to illegal aliens, no?
I wonder if the "quality of life" exceptions means that we will let the homeless die?

[Winehole23]

It doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

Besides, think of the overhead for hospitals. It won't be cheap to verify the citizenship of everyone without ID, or to settle the lawsuits arising from errors of judgment.

[Yonivore]

Yes, but the point Obama was trying to make is that they won't get the universal health care that all citizens will. I doubt he was trying to imply that they'd found a magical way to stop illegal citizens from going to the emergency room.
They hell they won't...they get it now.

And, it's not magic. You just quit providing non-emergency care and deport stabilized emergency cases. That would stop it.

[Winehole23]

I wonder if the "quality of life" exceptions wean that we will let the homeless die?You only wish.

[Yonivore]

It doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

Besides, think of the overhead for hospitals. It won't be cheap to verify the citizenship of everyone without ID, or to settle the lawsuits arising from errors of judgment.
Democrats could have Town Hall meetings at the hospital. They require ID to attend those now.

It's not that expensive.

[nuclearfm]

You only wish.

Oh Geeze. Fuck any common sense. It's no holds barred. The funny thing is that most of the idiots are arguing against their benefit and in favor of mine. I have insurance stock.

[Wild Cobra]

You only wish.
No, I don't. However, as full of holes HB 3200 is, the committees that decide things can pretty much do as they please.

[nuclearfm]

No, I don't.

I'm for Immigration reform too but, that's another issue.

If could analogize your argument in terms of the current debate, It would be like saying why discharge a COPD patient from the hospital...after all, they're going to be back in the hospital 6 months from now.

Bullshit, you were trying to attach it to the issue at hand, most notably in another thread,



The drain on medical resources by illegal aliens is a huge problem. Health care reform needs to address it and can do so without having to tack illegal immigration.

[Winehole23]

Democrats could have Town Hall meetings at the hospital. They require ID to attend those now.

It's not that expensive.Lawsuits from US citizens mistakenly denied care aren't cheap. that's why hospitals will never go along with your suggestion.

[Yonivore]

Bullshit, you were trying to attach it to the issue at hand, most notably in another thread,
Provision of health care to illegal aliens and how to resolve the issue of illegal immigration, itself, are two separate issues.

[Yonivore]

Lawsuits from US citizens mistakenly denied care aren't cheap. that's why hospitals will never go along with your suggestion.
Neither is providing free health care to illegal aliens. I'm willing to take the risk.

[ElNono]

It doesn't have to say it grants them to illegal aliens. By not addressing the subject, they are covered in all other areas.

Is this a fact? Can you back it up?


Are you sure they are illegal? They aren't suppose to work without being here legally some how. I'm pretty sure there is a prevision that the cannot get legal residency if they broke the immigration laws. They could be here legally visiting, have a work visa, etc. You sure they are illegal?

Absolutely sure. The IRS does not check immigration status when issuing Tax ID cards/numbers or filing returns. Furthermore, when an illegal alien files to become legal (say because they married a citizen), DHS will request your last 3 years of tax returns, which automatically implies that you should have been filing your taxes even if you weren't a legal alien. If you know any illegal aliens, go ask them if they file a tax return. You'll be surprised.


If you are helping criminals, it can affect your immigration status. Did you know that? If they are illegal, I suggest you turn them in.

I'm willing to bet I know more of immigration laws at this point that I've had to go through the entire system myself without a lawyer, than you'll ever know.
My friends all ended up getting their US citizenship 3 or 4 years ago. What's actually funny is that once they got their American passports issued they actually moved back to their countries of origin, for whatever reason.
They spent almost 15 years going through all that crap only to GTFO. Just weird.

[Wild Cobra]

Absolutely sure. The IRS does not check immigration status when issuing Tax ID cards/numbers or filing returns. Furthermore, when an illegal alien files to become legal (say because they married a citizen), DHS will request your last 3 years of tax returns, which automatically implies that you should have been filing your taxes even if you weren't a legal alien. If you know any illegal aliens, go ask them if they file a tax return. You'll be surprised.

I'd like to know who changed the law. It didn't use to be like that.

Fucking moore-on politicians.

[ElNono]

Provision of health care to illegal aliens and how to resolve the issue of illegal immigration, itself, are two separate issues.

Name me any other country that denies emergency care to illegal aliens, and/or deports them after providing care. As a matter of fact, I can already think of a couple of countries that will provide said emergency care absolutely for free without even sending out a bill.

[Winehole23]

Neither is providing free health care to illegal aliens. I'm willing to take the risk.Hospitals won't be.

[Nbadan]

The hammer falls..

http://i27.tinypic.com/143onsh.png
http://i29.tinypic.com/2lndb1s.png

[boutons_deux]

Like all right-wingers, Yoni, WC, Whott, don't have solutions, only NO! and objections and trashing.

Illegals cost 20% of public health cafre, US citizens 80%. It's a HUMANitarian problem (like humanitarian problems in poor countries, esp where Repugs have busted in, started bullshit resource wars, ,destroyed the country), which Magic Negro is attempting to solve, while the right-wing peanut gallery throws rotten eggs with and posseses NO GOOD WILL to help solve the problems.


The US medical system is so expensive that even the super-wealthy US can't afford it.

[ChumpDumper]

Neither is providing free health care to illegal aliens. I'm willing to take the risk.You are?

Personally?

So you want to be in charge of deciding who seems legal enough to receive hospital care -- and responsible legally and financially for any mistakes you make?

No, you aren't.

[nkdlunch]

The hammer falls..

http://i27.tinypic.com/143onsh.png
http://i29.tinypic.com/2lndb1s.png

that mofo is an enforcer

[iggypop123]

he looks like the only guy there thats in shape

[Marcus Bryant]

The hammer falls..


ROFL. What a fucking poser. But if you like hard Jews like Nbadan I guess he looks impressive.

[Yonivore]

that mofo is an enforcer
Funny, he doesn't have any authority in Congress.

It should be noted that Congressman Wilson rightly apologized for breaking decorum but, so far, has refused to recant his characterization of President Obama's statement being -- as he now puts it -- inaccurate.

In fact, Congress is now busily plugging the loopholes in HR3200 President Obama says didn't exist. Seems to me that vindicates Congressman Wilson.

I also think that President Obama's and Vice President Biden's acceptance of his apology should have ended the discussion but, Democrats in Congress seem intent on shooting themselves in the foot over this issue trying to force Wilson to humiliate himself in the well.

We'll see if that succeeds.

[hater]

Funny, he doesn't have any authority in Congress.


you know damn well Republicans would LOVE to have a guy like that on their team. Dude is muscle.



It should be noted that Congressman Wilson rightly apologized for breaking decorum but, so far, has refused to recant his characterization of President Obama's statement being -- as he now puts it -- inaccurate.

In fact, Congress is now busily plugging the loopholes in HR3200 President Obama says didn't exist. Seems to me that vindicates Congressman Wilson.


Wilson did a favor for Democrats. the plan will pass now, I think.



I also think that President Obama's and Vice President Biden's acceptance of his apology should have ended the discussion but, Democrats in Congress seem intent on shooting themselves in the foot over this issue trying to force Wilson to humiliate himself in the well.

We'll see if that succeeds.

he humiliated himself all on his own

[Yonivore]

you know damn well Republicans would LOVE to have a guy like that on their team. Dude is muscle.
What makes you think they don't? President Bush was able to get much of his agenda through an obstinate Congress that cursed him in public and passed his legislative initiatives at the Capitol.


Wilson did a favor for Democrats. the plan will pass now, I think.
I don't think it will. There's still the question, dividing Democrats, over whether or not the "public" option will be included.


he humiliated himself all on his own
He doesn't appear to be humiliated to me. In fact, he seems to be enjoying somewhat of a boost in his esteem.

[ChumpDumper]

He doesn't appear to be humiliated to me. In fact, he seems to be enjoying somewhat of a boost in his esteem.The only post-comment poll I've seen has him now in a dead heat with his Democratic rival in the his district. We'll see if that's a trend.

[boutons_deux]

"in 2003, Wilson voted (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2003/roll332.xml) to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare. The vote came on the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Moder nization_Act), which contained Sec. 1011 (http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14201) authorizing $250,000 annually between 2003 and 2008 for government reimbursements to hospitals who provide treatment for uninsured illegal immigrants. The program has been extended through 2009 and there is currently a bipartisan bill (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1386/show) in Congress to make it permanent."

http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1219-Joe-Wilson-Voted-to-Provide-Taxpayer-Money-for-Illegal-Immigrants-Healthcare

[Yonivore]

The only post-comment poll I've seen has him now in a dead heat with his Democratic rival in the his district. We'll see if that's a trend.
Yeah, I saw where the guy (his ostensible opponent) got a $400,000 (now up to a cool million) boost since the comment.

But, today, there's this.

S.C.'s Wilson Rakes In $750,000 in Less Than 48 Hours; Opponent Tops $1 Million (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/09/scs_wilson_rakes_in_750000_in.html)

I'd be interested to know the source of funds -- given to both camps. Were they from the constituent base or some national effort to capitalize on the incident.

Anyway, depending on how sustained the giving is to both, neither number is a definitive sign that Wilson was humiliated.

[clambake]

"in 2003, Wilson voted (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2003/roll332.xml) to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare. The vote came on the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Moder nization_Act), which contained Sec. 1011 (http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14201) authorizing $250,000 annually between 2003 and 2008 for government reimbursements to hospitals who provide treatment for uninsured illegal immigrants. The program has been extended through 2009 and there is currently a bipartisan bill (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1386/show) in Congress to make it permanent."

http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1219-Joe-Wilson-Voted-to-Provide-Taxpayer-Money-for-Illegal-Immigrants-Healthcare

he's a liar!