Illegal Allien Care

[SpurNation]

Since mentioned in Obama's speech this issue has seemed to arrise to the front after Senator's Wilson's "you lie" comment.

from a 2008 article: http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=3978

Free Medical Relief for Illegal Aliens Immigration; Posted on: 2008-03-28 11:56:32 [ Printer friendly / Instant flyer (http://www.wvwnews.net/printer.php?id=3978) ]
President Bush by his negligence or ignorance is allowing Illegal Aliens to step to the front of the line in the United States Medical System. Emergency Rooms broke or charging legals more.

Threat and Response (http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=3937)

Mexican ambulance companies are now instructing their drivers to take uninsured patients (http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=3073) across the border to the United States. Might as well be George Bush instructing them with his lack of enforcement (http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=2258) of the federal rules and regulations he swore (http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=3644) to uphold.

For each of the last three years, 60 percent of hospitals in New York lost money. State hospitals lost a total of $1.7 billion in uncompensated care. Yet the state is offering free insurance coverage to 167,000 legal immigrants, at a cost of about $10 million. Immigrants head straight to the Jamaica Hospital, in Queens, New York, after landing at JFK or La Guardia. The hospital buys plane tickets and to send some of the ill immigrants back home, sometimes buying extra tickets for nurses to serve as escorts.

Pennsylvania and New Jersey hospitals gave almost $2 billion in free emergency and short-term care to uninsured patients, a large portion are illegal aliens.

Chicago's Alivio Medical Center provides $1 million a year in uncompensated care and estimates that more than half of its 20,000 annual patients are illegal aliens

Minnesota county commissioners say that the cost of medical care for uninsured immigrants is too high for local government to bear without federal help. Minnesota expects a $4.2 billion budget shortfall over the next two years

North Carolina has about $1.4 billion in unreimbursed hospital expenses annually. Every month, a Medicaid emergency services program sees 220 new cases involving immigrants, many of whom are illegal, at a cost of $32 million.

According to the Texas Hospital Association, Texas hospitals spent $393 million treating illegal aliens in 2002 alone and increasing yearly with $225 million to be paid by taxpayers. Texas, facing a $10 billion two-year state budget shortfall, plans to roll back Medicaid and coverage for children under the State Children's Health Insurance Program to the minimum levels mandated by law. Texas attorney general John Cornyn issued a legal opinion stipulating that federal law bans hospitals from using tax dollars to provide non-emergency care to illegal immigrants. However, Harris County- the state's largest county, which includes Houston- announced it would ignore the opinion and continue to provide taxpayer-subsidized non-emergency care to illegal aliens. In El Paso, 40 percent of residents have no health insurance and the illegal alien problem is rampant, Thomason General Hospital is seeking a 12.5 percent property tax increase to help offset its uncompensated care costs. The facility lost $32 million in uncompensated costs in 2001, not including an additional $49.7 million in charity care for patients whom the hospital knew up front could not pay their bills. An administrator at Texas's Brownsville Medical Center estimated that his hospital spends $500,000 a month treating illegal aliens.

In Florida, if Medicaid costs continue to increase at the current rate, the costs would consume the state budget by 2015. Non-citizens amass unpaid bills of more than $40 million a year at Florida hospitals. Broward County collects $190 million annually in property taxes to offset the $453 million lost in uncompensated care. The Florida Hospital Association reports that hospitals in the state "expended considerable time and effort transferring the patient back to their own country or finding appropriate long-term care. Hospitals frequently paid to return the patient to his/her home country and/or absorbed the cost of any follow up care

California Over 60 emergency rooms have closed and locally funded initiatives in Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Francisco, San Mateo, and Riverside counties now pay for health insurance for illegal immigrants in those jurisdictions. One-third of the patients treated by the Los Angeles county health system each year are illegal aliens. Los Angeles, a magnet for legal and illegal immigration, is a prime example of immigration overwhelming a health system. Since the early 1990s, the Los Angeles County Department of Health Services (LACHS) has been on the verge of collapse several times, saved only by bailouts from the federal government. LACHS bears the burden of providing treatment for two million people without health insurance and faces an anticipated $300 million deficit, accumulating to nearly $800 million over the next five years. 16 health clinics and two hospitals were forced to close their doors to everyone

LACHS is sharply curtailing services at dozens of county clinics, hospitals, and emergency rooms, which serve primarily the working poor and indigent. If no additional state or federal funds are forthcoming, county health officials have proposed closing emergency, trauma, and in-patient services at three hospitals, along with two-thirds of the county health center clinics and 100 private outpatient clinics. "If these critical county trauma centers are closed, there is absolutely no doubt that injured people, both with and without medical insurance, will die unnecessarily because the other trauma centers are simply too far away," says Dr. Robert Hockberger, chair of Harbor-UCLA's Department of Emergency Medicine

Scripps Memorial Hospital in Chula Vista estimates that about one quarter of patients who are uninsured and don't pay their bills are illegal aliens. The hospital loses $7 million to $10 million in uncompensated costs.

In Santa Cruz hospitals are so crowded that they regularly close their doors to new emergency patients. When they're open, patients often have to wait up to ten hours. 30 to 40 percent of the Community Clinic of Orange County's patients in Santa Ana are illegal immigrants Regional Medical Center and Pioneers Memorial Hospital in El Centro, California loses over $1.5 million annually treating illegal immigrants.

Arizona, facing a $1 billion state budget shortfall in FY 2004 Southeast Arizona Medical Center- has filed for bankruptcy. Cochise's Copper Queen Community Hospital spends two-thirds of its operating income on uncompensated care for immigrants, a factor administrators say played a role in the hospital's decision to close its long-term care unit. University Medical Center in Tucson loses over $7 million a year caring for immigrants The five largest health care providers in Maricopa County loses over 400 million every year in uncompensated care.

Continue... (http://warriorsfortruth.com/bush-medical-plans.html)

__________________________________________________ __________

Fuck messing with Medicare....the allegedly proposed plan could be paid by eliminating free care to illegals.

[ChumpDumper]

So just let them die?

[jack sommerset]

http://obamalies.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/obama-bush.jpg

[Supergirl]

For those who care about the truth:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

It's already been investigated. Wilson was the one who lied.

[101A]

For those who care about the truth:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

It's already been investigated. Wilson was the one who lied.

From the speech:


There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

From YOUR source:


Under health care reform, illegal immigrants would be able to buy private insurance or the public option.

Obama lied.

[SpurNation]

So just let them die?

At least make them pay. That alone would reduce health care costs for all of us and we wouldn't need radical health care reform.

[SnakeBoy]

For those who care about the truth:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

It's already been investigated. Wilson was the one who lied.

Wilson simply stated "You Lie". Politifact proves proves Wilson's statement is correct. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/barack-obama/

[nkdlunch]

From the speech:



From YOUR source:

Originally Posted by Barrack_Obama

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.
From YOUR source:



Under health care reform, illegal immigrants would be able to buy private insurance or the public option.

Obama lied.









illegal immigrants can already purchase insurance from private companies today.

that means private companies are insuring illegals today. shame on them!!!

this means EVERYONE lied!

[coyotes_geek]

For those who care about the truth:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

It's already been investigated. Wilson was the one who lied.

Not a very convincing arguement. They're simply making an observation that the whole issue of coverage for illegals pretty much gets ignored in the bill and then concluding that Wilson lied because there's nothing in there that says illegals would get coverage. That's a flawed premise because someone else could say that Wilson was telling the truth because there's nothing in the bill saying that illegals would be prohibited from getting coverage. Both conclusions would have equal merit and be equally flawed.

There's a simple fix here. If the Obama administration truly doesn't want illegals to be covered, which certainly is the impression they want to give, then just add the verbage to the bill saying exactly that. By not doing so it gives the impression that they're trying to deceive the public by saying illegals won't be covered yet leaving the loophole open to cover them after the bill gets passed.

[ChumpDumper]

At least make them pay. That alone would reduce health care costs for all of us and we wouldn't need radical health care reform.I'm fine with their paying.

They already are able to buy private insurance.

[ChumpDumper]

Not a very convincing arguement. They're simply making an observation that the whole issue of coverage for illegals pretty much gets ignored in the bill and then concluding that Wilson lied because there's nothing in there that says illegals would get coverage. That's a flawed premise because someone else could say that Wilson was telling the truth because there's nothing in the bill saying that illegals would be prohibited from getting coverage. Both conclusions would have equal merit and be equally flawed.

There's a simple fix here. If the Obama administration truly doesn't want illegals to be covered, which certainly is the impression they want to give, then just add the verbage to the bill saying exactly that. By not doing so it gives the impression that they're trying to deceive the public by saying illegals won't be covered yet leaving the loophole open to cover them after the bill gets passed.Why wouldn't anyone want illegals to pay for health care coverage?

[nkdlunch]

Why wouldn't anyone want illegals to pay for health care coverage?

wilson + the Republicans

they preffer the status quo. Illegals can't afford the expensive private insurance so they get free treatment at the ER at the expense of everyone else.

[SpurNation]

I'm fine with their paying.

They already are able to buy private insurance.

Fine. How can our government "FORCE" an illegal allien to purchase something they don't already purchase now?

Obama's speech was talking about reducing the "waste" of medicare expenditures. Were illegal alliens his prime target regarding that waste.

Did you read this in the OP...

Immigrants head straight to the Jamaica Hospital, in Queens, New York, after landing at JFK or La Guardia. The hospital buys plane tickets and to send some of the ill immigrants back home, sometimes buying extra tickets for nurses to serve as escorts.


We're shipping illegals in just to provide health care?

[nkdlunch]

Immigrants head straight to the Jamaica Hospital, in Queens, New York, after landing at JFK or La Guardia. The hospital buys plane tickets and to send some of the ill immigrants back home, sometimes buying extra tickets for nurses to serve as escorts.


how do they get past the JFK/Laguardia immigration??

Either the problem is there or they probably come in legally which means this has nothing to do with Illegal Alien Care

[101A]

illegal immigrants can already purchase insurance from private companies today.

that means private companies are insuring illegals today. shame on them!!!

this means EVERYONE lied!

Private insurance isn't subsidized by the United States Government; The Public Option will be.

Also, all of those regulations (no pre-x exclusion, etc...) meant to help American citizens - will also help illegal aliens. It is not that much of a leap, in that environment, to imagine a person diagnosed with cancer in a foreign country, coming here; buying insurance, and immediately getting coverage. Hell, I could see doctors/hospitals/clinics FLYING them here to do so! And it would be illegal to stop them; or charge them more than the prevailing premium, etc.......

Obama lied.

[coyotes_geek]

Why wouldn't anyone want illegals to pay for health care coverage?

Good question. One that Obama should answer instead of just giving hints and making innuendos. If he's serious about health care reform he needs to come right out and say what he wants to do about the illegals. Are they going to be on our nickel? Their own nickel? Or are we going to just start kicking them out of the emergency rooms if they don't have cash or coverage?

[nkdlunch]

Obama lied.

welcome to politics.

[SpurNation]

Not a very convincing arguement. They're simply making an observation that the whole issue of coverage for illegals pretty much gets ignored in the bill and then concluding that Wilson lied because there's nothing in there that says illegals would get coverage. That's a flawed premise because someone else could say that Wilson was telling the truth because there's nothing in the bill saying that illegals would be prohibited from getting coverage. Both conclusions would have equal merit and be equally flawed.

There's a simple fix here. If the Obama administration truly doesn't want illegals to be covered, which certainly is the impression they want to give, then just add the verbage to the bill saying exactly that. By not doing so it gives the impression that they're trying to deceive the public by saying illegals won't be covered yet leaving the loophole open to cover them after the bill gets passed.

Although President Obama says illegal aliens will not be covered in the health care overhaul bill, it contains no citizenship verification tools to ensure this happens.

I'm afraid the President does not understand the ramifications of a health care bill without verification provisions: unless the proposed health care bill includes a provision like the Deal Amendment to require verification of legal status, illegal aliens will be able to receive health care coverage. Not only is it unfair to hardworking and financially-strapped Americans to have to cover the cost of health care for illegal aliens, but also it is yet another incentive for more illegal immigration. Even though the bill may not explicitly state that illegal aliens are covered, the absence of language like the Deal amendment creates a de facto amnesty in which they can receive benefits.

[rjv]

Good question. One that Obama should answer instead of just giving hints and making innuendos. If he's serious about health care reform he needs to come right out and say what he wants to do about the illegals. Are they going to be on our nickel? Their own nickel? Or are we going to just start kicking them out of the emergency rooms if they don't have cash or coverage?

only if they repeal the 1986 Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) which would create a lot of other issues in the process.

[to21]

welcome to politics.Yeah these people amaze me....I bet they're still holding on to hope of finding WMD.

[ChumpDumper]

Fine. How can our government "FORCE" an illegal allien to purchase something they don't already purchase now?If they have a job, they'll have to buy coverage. That's who you were talking about. If they have that level of documentation, they'll be part of the premium paying and taxpaying system.


Obama's speech was talking about reducing the "waste" of medicare expenditures. Were illegal alliens his prime target regarding that waste.Which illegal aliens receive Medicare?


We're shipping illegals in just to provide health care?Sounds like a nice anecdote from such a well-known site, but as was asked earlier -- how do they make it out of the airport if they are here illegally?

[jack sommerset]

Here is a nice lil list of the America’s illegals who qualify for free healthcare.

1) aliens lawfully admitted who become legal permanent residents, called LPRs who have “Green Cards” for work, technically Immigration’s “I 551” status
2) refugees
3) aliens granted political asylum
4) Cubans and Haitians who entered America under the 1980 Refugee Education Assistance Act
5) aliens granted parole from prison for at least one year
6) aliens scheduled for deportation but whose deportation has been withheld
7) aliens granted “conditional entry”
8) battered alien women from any country who are welcomed under the Violence Against Women Act of 2000; and
9) victims of “severe forms of trafficking” who are brought to America and covered under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.[2]

[hater]

Here is a nice lil list of the America’s illegals who qualify for free healthcare.

1) aliens lawfully admitted who become legal permanent residents, called LPRs who have “Green Cards” for work, technically Immigration’s “I 551” status
2) refugees
3) aliens granted political asylum
4) Cubans and Haitians who entered America under the 1980 Refugee Education Assistance Act
5) aliens granted parole from prison for at least one year
6) aliens scheduled for deportation but whose deportation has been withheld
7) aliens granted “conditional entry”
8) battered alien women from any country who are welcomed under the Violence Against Women Act of 2000; and
9) victims of “severe forms of trafficking” who are brought to America and covered under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.[2]

good. :tu

poor folk

[SpurNation]

If they have a job, they'll have to buy coverage. That's who you were talking about. If they have that level of documentation, they'll be part of the premium paying and taxpaying system.

Yes. But also...for those that do not or will not purchase insurance...will it be business as usual in the ER centers across the nation? obama didn't go into detail about that. Will people be refused ER care if they don't provide proof of insurance? As the OP mentions...ER facilities are not only loosing money...they are going bancrupt. Does the "new" plan cover such instances...if so...who is paying for it? Does the cost of reform only involve the legal citizens of this nation? Again...there's no way to ensure such documentation.


Which illegal aliens receive Medicare?

Where does the revenue come from in treating illegals? Why is there a projected $500 Billion in wasteful spending through medicare?

Sounds like a nice anecdote from such a well-known site, but as was asked earlier -- how do they make it out of the airport if they are here illegally?[/quote]

As noted before...they were legal immigrants. But still receiving "free" care. Who has been paying for that?

[hater]

legal immigrants.

this thread is not about legal immigrants

[jack sommerset]

good. :tu

poor folk

Nice conclusion that they are all poor. And I like many Americans don't want to pay for someone because they are poor let alone have to pay for them when they should not be here in the first place. Go play your violin somewhere else.

[hater]

Nice conclusion that they are all poor. And I like many Americans don't want to pay for someone because they are poor let alone have to pay for them when they should not be here in the first place. Go play your violin somewhere else.

well then you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Obama came to help the poor. And the majority of Americans voted him in.

[SpurNation]

Which illegal aliens receive Medicare?



North Carolina has about $1.4 billion in unreimbursed hospital expenses annually. Every month, a Medicaid emergency services program sees 220 new cases involving immigrants, many of whom are illegal, at a cost of $32 million.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes. But also...for those that do not or will not purchase insurance...will it be business as usual in the ER centers across the nation? obama didn't go into detail about that. Will people be refused ER care if they don't provide proof of insurance? As the OP mentions...ER facilities are not only loosing money...they are going bancrupt. Does the "new" plan cover such instances...if so...who is paying for it? Does the cost of reform only involve the legal citizens of this nation? Again...there's no way to ensure such documentation.So are you calling specifically for illegal aliens to be denied emergency medical care?



Where does the revenue come from in treating illegals? Why is there a projected $500 Billion in wasteful spending through medicare?You are confusing two separate issues. If you have proof that illegals are using Medicare, provide a link to it.


As noted before...they were legal immigrants. But still receiving "free" care. Who has been paying for that?Again, nice anecdote. I'd like to see something more than anecdotes.

[ChumpDumper]

[further confusing the issues]Get back with us when you know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid.

[jack sommerset]

well then you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Obama came to help the poor. And the majority of Americans voted him in.

:lol They didn't vote Obama to be president to help the poor. They believed he would fix the economy,close gitmo in a 100 days, get out of Iraq, stop wars, allow five days of public comment before signing bills, no earmarks, get tougher on lobbyist, negotiate health care reform in public sessions televised on cspan,etc,.etc,etc,,,,,,,

You act as if we can pay for these illegals and people voted for him because of this. You're funny.

[SpurNation]

Get back with us when you know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid.

Say what?

Both receive their revenue from American citizens and as reported..


Every month, a Medicaid emergency services program sees 220 new cases involving immigrants, many of whom are illegal, at a cost of $32 million.



That is North Carolina only. Who knows where else. Fact is...Medicaid is being used to fund illegal health care.

[coyotes_geek]

If they have a job, they'll have to buy coverage. That's who you were talking about. If they have that level of documentation, they'll be part of the premium paying and taxpaying system.


Aren't small businesses exempt from all this? And don't most illegals work for small businesses? I know in the construction industry a lot of companies skirt the whole immigration thing by getting illegals to work for them as independent contractors. I'm not so sure that we'd end up capturing all that big a percentage of the illegal work force.

[SpurNation]

Aren't small businesses exempt from all this? And don't most illegals work for small businesses? I know in the construction industry a lot of companies skirt the whole immigration thing by getting illegals to work for them as independent contractors. I'm not so sure that we'd end up capturing all that big a percentage of the illegal work force.

Excuse my interjecting the referance you were asking Chump, but, this is what many small business owners are afraid of.

Will this bill if voted for effect the mandation of small business to provide health insurance to it's employees since it will be federal law. As of now...in the state of Texas...all that is required to provide is Workmans' Comp for salaried employees. Independant contractors as you mentioned are responsible for their own health insurance though many require Liability Insurance to work on location.

[ChumpDumper]

Say what?You read what I said.

[ChumpDumper]

Aren't small businesses exempt from all this? And don't most illegals work for small businesses? I know in the construction industry a lot of companies skirt the whole immigration thing by getting illegals to work for them as independent contractors. I'm not so sure that we'd end up capturing all that big a percentage of the illegal work force.So why worry then? If you are going to let companies employ illegal aliens anyway, you aren't serious about any reform concerning them.

[LnGrrrR]

Here is a nice lil list of the America’s illegals who qualify for free healthcare.

1) aliens lawfully admitted who become legal permanent residents, called LPRs who have “Green Cards” for work, technically Immigration’s “I 551” status
2) refugees
3) aliens granted political asylum
4) Cubans and Haitians who entered America under the 1980 Refugee Education Assistance Act
5) aliens granted parole from prison for at least one year
6) aliens scheduled for deportation but whose deportation has been withheld
7) aliens granted “conditional entry”
8) battered alien women from any country who are welcomed under the Violence Against Women Act of 2000; and
9) victims of “severe forms of trafficking” who are brought to America and covered under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.[2]

I don't think "refugees" are considered illegal aliens. The same goes for "severe forms of trafficking", as they are usually brought here against their will.

[jack sommerset]

I don't think "refugees" are considered illegal aliens. The same goes for "severe forms of trafficking", as they are usually brought here against their will.

If they are not invited they are illegally here.

[SpurNation]

You read what I said.

You understand what I'm saying too.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/07/medicare-vs-medicaid.asp

Again...both receive money from the federal government...one was being used to fund illegal allien health care answering your question...

Which illegal aliens receive Medicaid?

[rjv]

If they are not invited they are illegally here.

well this only applies to america post manifest destiny of course.

[coyotes_geek]

So why worry then? If you are going to let companies employ illegal aliens anyway, you aren't serious about any reform concerning them.

It sure doesn't look like Obama & Co are in any hurry to deliver some kind of immigration reform, so apparently they're not serious about reforming how that whole side of the equation is working. Doesn't that kind of defeat the point behind healthcare reform if we still end up with a bunch of uninsured illegals filling up emergency rooms?

[ChumpDumper]

If they are not invited they are illegally here.So the Cubans who escape Castro and make it to the mainland are all illegal?

[LnGrrrR]

If they are not invited they are illegally here.

Uhm... no.

If they are brought against their will, for instance, and the government decides to allow them to stay here, then they are here legally. If they are given refugee status, then they are given such status by the government. Are you arguing that a status granted to them by the government is illegal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee



Refugee was defined as a legal group in response to the large numbers of people fleeing Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) following World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II).

[LnGrrrR]

You understand what I'm saying too.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/07/medicare-vs-medicaid.asp

Again...both receive money from the federal government...one was being used to fund illegal allien health care answering your question...

I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you AGAINST emergency medical care for illegal citizens, or aren't you? A simple yes or no will do.

[rjv]

It sure doesn't look like Obama & Co are in any hurry to deliver some kind of immigration reform, so apparently they're not serious about reforming how that whole side of the equation is working. Doesn't that kind of defeat the point behind healthcare reform if we still end up with a bunch of uninsured illegals filling up emergency rooms?

i don't really think that this part would be about healthcare reform though.

[ChumpDumper]

It sure doesn't look like Obama & Co are in any hurry to deliver some kind of immigration reform, so apparently they're not serious about reforming how that whole side of the equation is working.Republicans were in complete control of the government for six years. What did they do?
Doesn't that kind of defeat the point behind healthcare reform if we still end up with a bunch of uninsured illegals filling up emergency rooms?No, it doesn't.

[jack sommerset]

Uhm... no.

If they are brought against their will, for instance, and the government decides to allow them to stay here, then they are here legally. If they are given refugee status, then they are given such status by the government. Are you arguing that a status granted to them by the government is illegal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee

We have policies for certain refugees. Check out the wet feet, dry feet policy. Lets say they fall into this policy, to me that means they are invited.

[LnGrrrR]

i don't really think that this part would be about healthcare reform though.

What? Why can't Obama get this damned Democratic Congress to write a bill outlawing illegals from getting hurt? Or outlawing hospitals from helping them? This demonrat libtard Congress can't do anything right! :flipoff

[coyotes_geek]

Republicans were in complete control of the government for six years. What did they do?

Nothing. How is that relevant to who's in power now?


No, it doesn't.

Why not? Don't you agree that uninsured illegals are a big part of the reason why health care costs are so high? If the point behind all this is to control costs, why wouldn't we want to resolve the issue behind the cost of providing care to illegals? Or are we just supposed to accept that uninsured illegals are entitled to free healthcare and it's the responsibility of taxpayers and the insured to provide it for them?

[LnGrrrR]

We have policies for certain refugees. Check out the wet feet, dry feet policy. Lets say they fall into this policy, to me that means they are invited.

Right... but the fact that we have policies means that those refugees are "legal". I mean, that's kinda by definition, 'invitation' or not.

My point is, of the list you posted...



Here is a nice lil list of the America’s illegals who qualify for free healthcare.

1) aliens lawfully admitted who become legal permanent residents, called LPRs who have “Green Cards” for work, technically Immigration’s “I 551” status
2) refugees
3) aliens granted political asylum
4) Cubans and Haitians who entered America under the 1980 Refugee Education Assistance Act
5) aliens granted parole from prison for at least one year
6) aliens scheduled for deportation but whose deportation has been withheld
7) aliens granted “conditional entry”
8) battered alien women from any country who are welcomed under the Violence Against Women Act of 2000; and
9) victims of “severe forms of trafficking” who are brought to America and covered under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.[2]


... only two of the statuses are for "illegal" immigrants (the non-italicized ones). Kinda defeats the point of the post.

[rjv]

What? Why can't Obama get this damned Democratic Congress to write a bill outlawing illegals from getting hurt? Or outlawing hospitals from helping them? This demonrat libtard Congress can't do anything right! :flipoff

true, true. what we need is a truly machiavellian government that only pretends to be christian.

[LnGrrrR]

Why not? Don't you agree that uninsured illegals are a big part of the reason why health care costs are so high? If the point behind all this is to control costs, why wouldn't we want to resolve the issue behind the cost of providing care to illegals? Or are we just supposed to accept that uninsured illegals are entitled to free healthcare and it's the responsibility of taxpayers and the insured to provide it for them?

Health care can be reformed without having to specifically deal with immigration issues.

Yes though, if we were able to effectively fix the immigration issue, it would provide synergistic benefits.

[ChumpDumper]

Health care can be reformed without having to specifically deal with immigration issues.

Yes though, if we were able to effectively fix the immigration issue, it would provide synergistic benefits.This. It could certainly help, but it's no reason to throw up one's hands and give up if it is not addressed.

[Supergirl]

"Illegal immigrants" are already being served in our current system, because medical ethics demands that anyone with life-threatening injuries be treated if they show up in the ER. You cannot ask doctors to violate the Hippocratic oath.

However, it is FAR MORE EXPENSIVE to treat people in ERs than through regular doctors' appts. Therefore, it stands to reason that the best way to prevent our current status quo is through:

1. Doing a better job tracking illegal immigrants
2. Either making illegals citizens and mandating they have insurance - either public option or a private plan they pay for themselves, depending on their income - or
3. Deporting them.

This is really the only way to solve this part of the health care crisis. The current system, the status quo, is unsustainable. That is what Obama has been saying since Day 1.

[jack sommerset]

Right... but the fact that we have policies means that those refugees are "legal". I mean, that's kinda by definition, 'invitation' or not.

My point is, of the list you posted...



... only two of the statuses are for "illegal" immigrants (the non-italicized ones). Kinda defeats the point of the post.

I disagree. Sticking with just refugee by websters definition it's a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution. What makes you think the USA considers all of these refugees legal?

[ChumpDumper]

I disagree. Sticking with just refugee by websters definition it's a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution. What makes you think the USA considers all of these refugees legal?If they have legal refugee status, they are legal refugees.

[rjv]

Nothing. How is that relevant to who's in power now?



Why not? Don't you agree that uninsured illegals are a big part of the reason why health care costs are so high? If the point behind all this is to control costs, why wouldn't we want to resolve the issue behind the cost of providing care to illegals? Or are we just supposed to accept that uninsured illegals are entitled to free healthcare and it's the responsibility of taxpayers and the insured to provide it for them?

illegals and the uninsured are both a strain on healthcare ineed but EMTLA is as much a moral and ethical issue as it is a financial one.

[coyotes_geek]

i don't really think that this part would be about healthcare reform though.

I agree that immigration reform is going off on a tangent. I'd prefer not to put the hospitals in the business of immigration enforcement. But the issue of who has to pick up the tab for the illegals in the emergency rooms is still something that needs to be addressed one way or the other if healthcare reform is going to stand any chance at success. Obama has been telling us over and over that people without insurance are driving up healthcare costs and illegals are one huge block of people without insurance. I don't think it's too much to ask Obama for an explanation as to how they will be dealt with.

[METALMiKE]

First thing I thought when I saw this thread was 'District 9'...

[coyotes_geek]

Health care can be reformed without having to specifically deal with immigration issues.

Yes though, if we were able to effectively fix the immigration issue, it would provide synergistic benefits.

I agree that we can reform health care without having to specifically deal with immigration issues. But I don't think we can reform health care without specifically dealing with the uninsured. Find a way to ensure that they're the ones paying for the healthcare they receive here and then it doesn't matter whether they're here legally or not. I just don't think that getting to them through their employers is going to be an effective way of doing that.

[rjv]

I agree that immigration reform is going off on a tangent. I'd prefer not to put the hospitals in the business of immigration enforcement. But the issue of who has to pick up the tab for the illegals in the emergency rooms is still something that needs to be addressed one way or the other if healthcare reform is going to stand any chance at success. Obama has been telling us over and over that people without insurance are driving up healthcare costs and illegals are one huge block of people without insurance. I don't think it's too much to ask Obama for an explanation as to how they will be dealt with.

yes, illegals are a big part of the burden (especially on emergency medicine and clinics) but i also believe we need to:

place administrative costs in check and bring down the cost of drugs (because realistically doctors are going to keep handing out drugs like candy and patients are going to keep seeing drugs as the quick fix) as well as get insurers to stop dropping "lemon" patients onto the government's lap.

but we all know that no president is going to wrestle with the insurance companies, who are spending 1 million dollars a day just to fight health care reform, or the pharmaceutical companies.

ethically and legally, hospitals and health care providers still need to see patients in need so the answer can not be to shut the doors.

[LnGrrrR]

I disagree. Sticking with just refugee by websters definition it's a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution. What makes you think the USA considers all of these refugees legal?

There is a difference between the legal term "refugee" and a more general usage of the word. I was assuming that the post you mentioned was referring to the legal term.

Even if they meant it in the sense of "person who flees a foreign country" without getting legal recognition for it (which would be pretty stupid...), you'd only be up to 3 categories of "illegal" immigrants in your example.

[hater]

I disagree. Sticking with just refugee by websters definition it's a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution. What makes you think the USA considers all of these refugees legal?

good thing they use more than Webster's dictionary in the supreme court huh?

[nuclearfm]

I love all this bash the immigrant sentiment... way to use your heads.

If you start putting the employers than hire illegals in pound me in the ass jail, you'd see that illegal population drop pretty fast.

[LnGrrrR]

I love all this bash the immigrant sentiment... way to use your heads.

If you start putting the employers than hire illegals in pound me in the ass jail, you'd see that illegal population drop pretty fast.

That seems the most humane way to deal with the issue. I'm also for a path to amnesty. The people who sign up for it will not only pay taxes in the future, but also pay some sort of fee to sign up to the program. And the people who DON'T sign up for it will get caught and deported like they do now. So, as I see it, more money in our pockets.

There's certainly a chance that it will encourage more illegal immigrants... but it doesn't look like that lack of encouragement has done much to stem the tide the past decade or two.

[jack sommerset]

I think we should be able to shoot illegals.

[LnGrrrR]

I think we should be able to shoot illegals.

I'm guessing you're just trolling here? Obviously, we're not allowed to just shoot people who break laws.

[jack sommerset]

I'm guessing you're just trolling here? Obviously, we're not allowed to just shoot people who break laws.

A little bit of trolling and a little bit of wishing.

[iggypop123]

I love all this bash the immigrant sentiment... way to use your heads.

If you start putting the employers than hire illegals in pound me in the ass jail, you'd see that illegal population drop pretty fast.

but what about the free market!!!!! you can't mess with the free market you Marxist!

[LnGrrrR]

A little bit of trolling and a little bit of wishing.

At least you admit it. :D

[nuclearfm]

So just let them die?

This has gone on long enough. Don't be fools. They're trying to bring you into the illegal immigration debate. It's out of bounds, this was about health care.

[Wild Cobra]

For those who care about the truth:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

It's already been investigated. Wilson was the one who lied.
Go back and read that carefully. And the title:

Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn't

The bill specifically says that people in the United States illegally are not eligible for tax credits
That is the only mention. Wow. They don't get a tax break on filed income taxes. That is the only thing they are excluded from. Not health care, just tax credits.

How many illegals file a tax return? Now continue reading

FAIR has a point that illegal immigrants would likely be able to buy insurance on the national health insurance exchange. We don't see anything in the bills that would hinder that. A Congressional Research Service report issued Aug. 25, 2009, confirmed our observation. The House bill "does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the Exchange — whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently," the report said.

[LnGrrrR]

Go back and read that carefully. And the title:


That is the only mention. Wow. They don't get a tax break on filed income taxes. That is the only thing they are excluded from. Not health care, just tax credits.

How many illegals file a tax return? Now continue reading

Yes... they could theoretically BUY health insurance. But they won't be covered for free. It's much like the system now, where illegal citizens could buy health insurance.

[Yonivore]

Yes... they could theoretically BUY health insurance. But they won't be covered for free. It's much like the system now, where illegal citizens could buy health insurance.
Who pays for the care of the illegal aliens that don't buy insurance?

[Wild Cobra]

Yes... they could theoretically BUY health insurance. But they won't be covered for free. It's much like the system now, where illegal citizens could buy health insurance.
So they don't get the 8% payroll tax deduction back, but get full health care on our dime.

Think that's right?

[LnGrrrR]

Who pays for the care of the illegal aliens that don't buy insurance?

The American taxpayers would pay in the form of emergency room bills and whatnot, as they do now. And those who don't have an emergency would be denied coverage, much like Americans without insurance are denied now.

Again, unless you propose to deny emergency care to illegal citizens, there's really no getting around that.

[LnGrrrR]

So they don't get the 8% payroll tax deduction back, but get full health care on our dime.

Think that's right?

See my post right above this one on how I believe that process would work.

[Yonivore]

The American taxpayers would pay in the form of emergency room bills and whatnot, as they do now. And those who don't have an emergency would be denied coverage, much like Americans without insurance are denied now.

Again, unless you propose to deny emergency care to illegal citizens, there's really no getting around that.
They're not going to deny them basic, preventative, or routine care either. The emergency room is the primary care physician of illegal aliens.

[Wild Cobra]

The American taxpayers would pay in the form of emergency room bills and whatnot, as they do now. And those who don't have an emergency would be denied coverage, much like Americans without insurance are denied now.

Again, unless you propose to deny emergency care to illegal citizens, there's really no getting around that.
"If you build it, they will come." We need to reverse the cycle, not encourage more.

Thing is, anything we do that makes it easier and better for illegals, makes them try harder to get here. We need to deny them work and other services. When an illegal comes to the emergency room, his next stop need to be his home country.

If you don't agree with that, then sponsor someone to live here. You take responsibility. Stop wanting to do it with "other people's money."

[ElNono]

Here is a nice lil list of the America’s illegals who qualify for free healthcare.

1) aliens lawfully admitted who become legal permanent residents, called LPRs who have “Green Cards” for work, technically Immigration’s “I 551” status
2) refugees
3) aliens granted political asylum
4) Cubans and Haitians who entered America under the 1980 Refugee Education Assistance Act
5) aliens granted parole from prison for at least one year
6) aliens scheduled for deportation but whose deportation has been withheld
7) aliens granted “conditional entry”
8) battered alien women from any country who are welcomed under the Violence Against Women Act of 2000; and
9) victims of “severe forms of trafficking” who are brought to America and covered under the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000.[2]

That's funny. I would have sworn that's a list of legal aliens, who have to go through a process that sometimes takes years to get their legal status granted.

Furthermore, for those that simply claim that other countries will load up planes with sick people at ship them over, why don't they already do that sending them to France, England, and pretty much the rest of the civilized world?
Perhaps it has to do with the fact those countries do not have permeable borders like the US does? Why couldn't we simply attack this problem at it's root and finally secure our borders?

[ChumpDumper]

"If you build it, they will come." We need to reverse the cycle, not encourage more.

Thing is, anything we do that makes it easier and better for illegals, makes them try harder to get here. We need to deny them work and other services. When an illegal comes to the emergency room, his next stop need to be his home country.

If you don't agree with that, then sponsor someone to live here. You take responsibility. Stop wanting to do it with "other people's money."We already sponsor those people to live here through our desire for cheap food, construction costs, cleaning and child raising.

[SpurNation]

I don't understand what you're saying.

Are you AGAINST emergency medical care for illegal citizens, or aren't you? A simple yes or no will do.

:lol When does anybody here provide simple yes or no answers?

I'm not against treating sick people. That is against my religious beliefs.

What I'm against is not addressing every aspect of our health care issues in this country. When the remark regarding illegal alliens came up in Obama's speech I decided to look into it a little more to see what (specifically) that aspect might have regarding this bill.

What I found was the amazingly high cost associated with treating illegal alliens in this country and no reference as to how to reduce those costs.

With regards to my religious beliefs...somebody pointed out that it is not Christian to deny care to somebody. It's also not Christian to force somebody to pay for somebody else. Good will in the Christian faith comes from donation and volunteering. The more government control and mandating forced upon us the less donating and volunteering we can provide.

I'm a firm believer that if many government programs and mandates were less in our lives...the more caring, donating and self managing we would be as a nation and that many of the issues we face now would be either non-existent or minimal compared to today.

If Obama truly wants to reform the health care crisis...illegal alliens will have to be a part of that reform as well. And total reform would be best served if all the entities that make up health care be addressed as individual bills and not rolled into any single law.

[Supergirl]

Guys, the dirty secret about illegal immigration is that the main source of it are the corporations who hire them, knowing they're illegal, but looking the other way.

And most of those corporations are the biggest supporters of the Republican party. Why do you think they're so conflicted on the issue?

Crack down on the corporations, you'll reduce illegal immigration. Most immigrants to this country apply for asylum or citizenship. Most get it. Some go back when their visas are up. Some stay illegally - but this is a small fraction compared to the ones brought over by corporations to work for MUCH MUCH LESS than Americans want to be paid, and MUCH MUCH LESS than the American minimum wage.

[101A]

And most of those corporations are the biggest supporters of the Republican party.

You live in a very simple world, don't you?

Everything has a place, everything it its place.

Democrats = All that is good and virtuous

Republicans = All that is evil and corrupt.

There, politics is done. Now go learn physics....

[Winehole23]

That's funny. I would have sworn that's a list of legal aliens, who have to go through a process that sometimes takes years to get their legal status granted.Technicalities.

Funny that Jack still considers them all unwelcome, and *illegal*, even with our government's express permission to be here.

[coyotes_geek]

Guys, the dirty secret about illegal immigration is that the main source of it are the corporations who hire them, knowing they're illegal, but looking the other way.

And most of those corporations are the biggest supporters of the Republican party. Why do you think they're so conflicted on the issue?

Crack down on the corporations, you'll reduce illegal immigration. Most immigrants to this country apply for asylum or citizenship. Most get it. Some go back when their visas are up. Some stay illegally - but this is a small fraction compared to the ones brought over by corporations to work for MUCH MUCH LESS than Americans want to be paid, and MUCH MUCH LESS than the American minimum wage.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but most illegals work for small businesses like restaurants, independent trade contractors, or as just plain old day laborers getting paid in cash on a daily basis. Your notion that all these illegals are coming here to work in corporate america is completely absurd.

[rjv]

supergirl is not all that off base in that there is a direct link between corporations and illegal immigration and a good portion of this is related to NAFTA ( a trade agreement that obama has not exactly gone after since put in office-even though he's a socialist )

mexican economists have demonstrated data showing that after a steady rise until 1993, agricultural employment began to decline when NAFTA came into force, primarily among corn producers — a direct consequence of NAFTA . one-sixth of the mexican agricultural work force has been displaced in the NAFTA years, a process that is continuing, depressing wages in other sectors of the economy and impelling emigration to the united states. max correa, secretary-general of the group central campesina cardenista, estimates that for every five tons bought from foreign producers, one campesino becomes a candidate for migration.

big firms like wal-mart have entered the mexican market and, as a result of selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, they have displaced locally based shoe, toy, and candy firms. an estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized mexican businesses have been eliminated.

a report by the carnegie endowment study shows that wages along the mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA..

essentially, corporate america's drive for lower wages has been satisifed by NAFTA but the direct result has been increased illegal immigration to the US.

[jack sommerset]

This has gone on long enough. Don't be fools. They're trying to bring you into the illegal immigration debate. It's out of bounds, this was about health care.

No shit. You think? Doesn't matter. USA doesn't have the money. Problem solved. 2010 we won't have to put up with the bullshit policies Obama brings with him. 2012 we won't be forced to listen to him like he wanted us and our kids too.

[ChumpDumper]

No shit. You think? Doesn't matter. USA doesn't have the money. Problem solved. 2010 we won't have to put up with the bullshit policies Obama brings with him. 2012 we won't be forced to listen to him like he wanted us and our kids too.What will you do when refugees still get health care?

[LnGrrrR]

They're not going to deny them basic, preventative, or routine care either. The emergency room is the primary care physician of illegal aliens.

I'm ok with denying basic, preventative and/or routine care to illegal immigrants, just not emergency care.

[LnGrrrR]

Thing is, anything we do that makes it easier and better for illegals, makes them try harder to get here. We need to deny them work and other services. When an illegal comes to the emergency room, his next stop need to be his home country.


I'm ok with this, with the caveat that they don't have kids. If they have children who are citizens, then I'd like to see some option besides deportation. Not sure what that is though.

[LnGrrrR]

:lolo reduce those costs.

With regards to my religious beliefs...somebody pointed out that it is not Christian to deny care to somebody. It's also not Christian to force somebody to pay for somebody else. Good will in the Christian faith comes from donation and volunteering. The more government control and mandating forced upon us the less donating and volunteering we can provide.


Really? What do you think tithing is?

Edit: You could argue that tithing isn't necessarily forced, but HIGHLY encouraged...I would see that as a poor argument, however.

[LnGrrrR]

That's funny. I would have sworn that's a list of legal aliens, who have to go through a process that sometimes takes years to get their legal status granted.

Furthermore, for those that simply claim that other countries will load up planes with sick people at ship them over, why don't they already do that sending them to France, England, and pretty much the rest of the civilized world?
Perhaps it has to do with the fact those countries do not have permeable borders like the US does? Why couldn't we simply attack this problem at it's root and finally secure our borders?

+1

As WC mentioned earlier, laws hitting people who hire illegal immigrants are good too.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm ok with this, with the caveat that they don't have kids. If they have children who are citizens, then I'd like to see some option besides deportation. Not sure what that is though.
We need to change that. It should not be automatic to get citizenship just because you are born here. That is not a strict constitutional interpretation. Since they are subject under a different nation's laws, it is not required to give the babies citizenship.

[Wild Cobra]

Really? What do you think tithing is?

Edit: You could argue that tithing isn't necessarily forced, but HIGHLY encouraged...I would see that as a poor argument, however.
Myself, I don't give to the churches. I give to causes of my choice. I don't take the biblical idea as gospel, but I believe in doing it anyway. I can directly think of $5,000+ that my contribution to the needy in one form or another will be by the end of the year, if I stop donating more and leave my payroll deduction in place to charity. That does not count taxes. That is charitable contribution.

It has always been my goal to give more in charity than I pay in taxes. This year I may fall short. Things are getting tight.

[Winehole23]

We need to change that. It should not be automatic to get citizenship just because you are born here. That is not a strict constitutional interpretation. Since they are subject under a different nation's laws, it is not required to give the babies citizenship.14th amendment:



"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

[Winehole23]

Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps. Section 1401 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401----000-.html) defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"


Anyone born inside the United States *
Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person's status as a citizen of the tribe
Any one born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
Any one born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
Any one found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
Any one born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)
A final, historical condition: a person born before 5/24/1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.

* There is an exception in the law — the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.


Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.


Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001402----000-.html)), Alaska (8 USC 1404 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001404----000-.html)), Hawaii (8 USC 1405 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001405----000-.html)), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001406----000-.html)), and Guam (8 USC 1407 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001407----000-.html)). Each of these sections confer citizenship on persons living in these territories as of a certain date, and usually confer natural-born status on persons born in those territories after that date. For example, for Puerto Rico, all persons born in Puerto Rico between April 11, 1899, and January 12, 1941, are automatically conferred citizenship as of the date the law was signed by the President (June 27, 1952). Additionally, all persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, are natural-born citizens of the United States. Note that because of when the law was passed, for some, the natural-born status was retroactive.


The law contains one other section of historical note, concerning the Panama Canal Zone and the nation of Panama. In 8 USC 1403 (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001403----000-.html), the law states that anyone born in the Canal Zone or in Panama itself, on or after February 26, 1904, to a mother and/or father who is a United States citizen, was "declared" to be a United States citizen. Note that the terms "natural-born" or "citizen at birth" are missing from this section.
In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person." Not eveyone agrees (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1157621#) that this section includes McCain — but absent a court ruling either way, we must presume citizenship.

[Winehole23]

All persons born or naturalized. What could be clearer, WC?

[Winehole23]

If you don't like it, amend the Constitution.

[Wild Cobra]

14th amendment:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Depends on how you interpret that. The newly born are not subject to our jurisdiction, because they are innocent at birth. Their parents however are from the jurisdiction of another country.

Trust me. I know the constitutional passage.

[Wild Cobra]

* There is an exception in the law — the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.

You answered your own question to me.

[nuclearfm]

Depends on how you interpret that. The newly born are not subject to our jurisdiction, because they are innocent at birth. Their parents however are from the jurisdiction of another country.

Trust me. I know the constitutional passage.

Not only is is not completely true and misinterpreted, it does not apply. Many refugees are under no jurisdiction matters like this. Undocumented workers, tourists are also subject to our jurisdiction just for being here.

Innocence(being a minor) has no bearing on citizenship, consisted with the 14th amendment. Procedural due process rights requires that certain steps, such as a hearing, be followed before a person's "life, liberty, citizenship or property" can be taken away. It is theirs to claim at any date. This has been the historical precedent.

If you really wish that a precedent be set that changed or limited birthrights, within a whilm of popular support. Would you support those changes for any individual? If a new majority take over congress and declare all of those of European decent, no longer citizens, but resident Aliens? Would you be ok with such a precedent of popular birthright criteria? I'm guessing you'd shit your pants.

The framers of the Fourteenth Amendment added this principle into the Constitution to keep the Supreme Court from ruling the Civil Rights Act of 1866 to be unconstitutional for want of congressional authority to pass such a law or a future Congress from altering it by a bare majority vote.

[nuclearfm]

If you don't like it, amend the Constitution.

That is what Ron Paul wanted to do. Hilarious at that. The idea that someone wants to subjectively change birthrights for children circumvents many equality and protection clauses just in the constitution among others. People like this fail to see that popular support can easily take away their citizenship with this standard.

Not only did it protect blacks, it protected whites from majority black states. It essentially treated all of us equal. We should all cherish that.

[Winehole23]

You answered your own question to me.The child of a diplomat is not exempt because of his innocence or his parents' country of origin, but because his official place of residence is an embassy -- i.e., foreign soil.

[Winehole23]

WC's argument is basically that all US authorities have misread the 14th amendment as it pertains to citizenship, and that his own very strained and tendentious reading is the only correct one.

[SpurNation]

Really? What do you think tithing is?

Edit: You could argue that tithing isn't necessarily forced, but HIGHLY encouraged...I would see that as a poor argument, however.

Highly encouraged is not the same as forced.

And let me be clear. I'm not against taxes. Taxes are needed to provide for the "simple", "necessary" functions of government.

What's argued is what is deemed necessary. To some extent I could see how "taking care of" illegal alliens could be necessary.

I could also probably guarantee, just by listening to the majority of people I talk to, that many of the government mandated programs in existence today...if actually voted by the citizens of this country instead of a representative of a district...would not be in existence.

But that's our system. As a citizen I have to abide by our system no matter how disingenuous I feel it is against my own beliefs or how much it takes away from my ability to chosse for myself.

The great thing about human nature though...it can adapt and survive. That's what our politicians count on the most. Human ability to adapt no matter how absurd the law is that we have to abide.

But at some time in people's lives (no matter their education or adaptability) there does come a breaking point. I see us as a nation that is becoming increasingly sensitive to our breaking points.

My breaking point is providing for those that don't contribute.

I work my ass off in providing a llife for my family (as I'm sure you do too) and I'm being made to feel fortunate by my government that I can? When has it ever been the case until recently (past 40 years) that one should ever feel fortunate for being a "citizen" of this country when it used to be an honor?

[Wild Cobra]

The child of a diplomat is not exempt because of his innocence or his parents' country of origin, but because his official place of residence is an embassy -- i.e., foreign soil.
Really?

Wow. I guess I'm stupid to understand they live in the local economy, but work at the embassy.

[hope4dopes]

So just let them die?

That is up to the Mexican goverment since they're mexican citizens.But if you feel compelled please, with the help of a few friends why don't band together and use your money time and energy to help out the poor mexicans, and allow us to keep our time money and enrgy to raise our children, to give them and our famlies the fruit of our labor.

[LnGrrrR]

Depends on how you interpret that. The newly born are not subject to our jurisdiction, because they are innocent at birth. Their parents however are from the jurisdiction of another country.

Trust me. I know the constitutional passage.

Anyone born on United States soil is subject to our jurisdiction. There are specific examples, like diplomats, because those diplomats are not subject to all of our laws as citizens are.

Besides which, the American system of justice is one that is based on common law rather than civil law, and you'll be hardpressed to find a court ruling that would rule that a person born to an illegal immigrant on US soil is not a citizen of the United States.

[LnGrrrR]

That is up to the Mexican goverment since they're mexican citizens.But if you feel compelled please, with the help of a few friends why don't band together and use your money time and energy to help out the poor mexicans, and allow us to keep our time money and enrgy to raise our children, to give them and our famlies the fruit of our labor.

Wow, talk about a strawman. Impressive.

[ChumpDumper]

What is Spanish for straw man?

[nuclearfm]

That is up to the Mexican goverment since they're mexican citizens.But if you feel compelled please, with the help of a few friends why don't band together and use your money time and energy to help out the poor mexicans, and allow us to keep our time money and enrgy to raise our children, to give them and our famlies the fruit of our labor.

Either that, or we could make the people who brought them over here and/or employed them pay the bill. However, many of those people would likely be called "rich" and therefore patriots not to be included in blame.

[hope4dopes]

Either that, or we could make the people who brought them over here and/or employed them pay the bill. However, many of those people would likely be called "rich" and therefore patriots not to be included in blame.

That'll work too as long as they both get their sorry asses thrown in jail and or deported I'm good with that.
And for the record California has the largest number of illegals in america, and it's a democrat state LA and SF being resoponsible for that, the largest number of illegals in America are being hired by plenty of Democrats, that's why the Union's betrayl is especially unforgivable, that's why when a Democrat tells the workers they want to protects them, the workers need to look up to see what's coming down.

[hope4dopes]

Wow, talk about a strawman. Impressive.
Wow talk about side stepping that's impressive.

[nuclearfm]

That'll work too as long as they both get their sorry asses thrown in jail and or deported I'm good with that.
And for the record California has the largest number of illegals in america, and it's a democrat state LA and SF being resoponsible for that, the largest number of illegals in America are being hired by plenty of Democrats, that's why the Union's betrayl is especially unforgivable, that's why when a Democrat tells the workers they want to protects them, the workers need to look up to see what's coming down.

#1 They'll leave if they can't work here
#2 Both major parties are killing the middle class. Money gets you things, no matter who is listening.

[LnGrrrR]

Wow talk about side stepping that's impressive.

1) Who's to say he doesn't help?
2) Is it necessary to have monetary/time involvement in order to share one's opinions?
3) What do you mean by "our children"? If you're referring to your immediate family alone, you help pay for poor children all over the United States through taxes. If you're referring to "our children" as being American, then children born to illegal immigrants are "our children" as well.

I'm sure there's more premises I could skewer, but the Pats game is on in an hour and a half.

[hope4dopes]

#1 They'll leave if they can't work here
#2 Both major parties are killing the middle class. Money gets you things, no matter who is listening.

There's been plenty of bills brought to law by the citizens of the state of california to both deny illegals benifits, and to punish employers, there's been bills to force verification. all these things the citizens forced onto the political class, and through the courts and a system of de facto amnesty through sanctuary cities like LA and SF illegals and those that use them know the laws the people vote for will not be enforced. In california that can be laid at the doorstep of the democrat party, but I agree both parties are up to their hocks in it and both have declared war on the American worker.

[hope4dopes]

1) Who's to say he doesn't help?
2) Is it necessary to have monetary/time involvement in order to share one's opinions?
3) What do you mean by "our children"? If you're referring to your immediate family alone, you help pay for poor children all over the United States through taxes. If you're referring to "our children" as being American, then children born to illegal immigrants are "our children" as well.

I'm sure there's more premises I could skewer, but the Pats game is on in an hour and a half. I suggest you go watch it dolt.

[hope4dopes]

#1 They'll leave if they can't work here
#2 Both major parties are killing the middle class. Money gets you things, no matter who is listening. Dude seriously if I had it my way the employers wouldn't get fined they'd get mandatory jail time.

[SpurNation]

Dude seriously if I had it my way the employers wouldn't get fined they'd get mandatory jail time.

Applause.

That's the only way to curb the infestation on tax payer's dollars.

The same should hold true for individuals who hire illegals as well for personal life.

[hope4dopes]

Applause.

That's the only way to curb the infestation on tax payer's dollars.

The same should hold true for individuals who hire illegals as well for personal life. Damn skippy

[LnGrrrR]

I suggest you go watch it dolt.

Ah, you were referring to the video? Since you didn't specify, I assumed you were responding to the person above you.

[hope4dopes]

Ah, you were referring to the video? Since you didn't specify, I assumed you were responding to the person above you. Nope. of you go don't forget your pork rinds.

[LnGrrrR]

Nope. of you go don't forget your pork rinds.

Huh?

[Winehole23]

Chicharrones. Pig foam. Maybe micca thinks you're Jewish, or a Muslim.

[ChumpDumper]

That is up to the Mexican goverment since they're mexican citizens.But if you feel compelled please, with the help of a few friends why don't band together and use your money time and energy to help out the poor mexicans, and allow us to keep our time money and enrgy to raise our children, to give them and our families the fruit of our labor.We use poor Mexicans to raise our children, gather and process our food and build our houses -- all in an attempt to enjoy more fruits (often literal fruits) of our labor. We just thought we could get away with it without having the costs around somehow.

We were wrong.

[SpurNation]

We use poor Mexicans to raise our children, gather and process our food and build our houses -- all in an attempt to enjoy more fruits (often literal fruits) of our labor. We just thought we could get away with it without having the costs around somehow.

We were wrong.

Very good point.

And those that do hire these people should be held accountable for the welfare, personal existence outside of their work duties and sponsoring of such activities.

[hope4dopes]

We use poor Mexicans to raise our children, gather and process our food and build our houses -- all in an attempt to enjoy more fruits (often literal fruits) of our labor. We just thought we could get away with it without having the costs around somehow.

We were wrong.

What's this "WE" shit you got a turd in your pocket there are literally thousands of organizations that have been exposing this bullshit for years.No this is the burgeious wanting the poor to subsidize their domestic staff, this is the democrat party trying to stuff ballot boxes, this is a war on the concepts of citizenship and national sovergienty. YOU were fucking wrong not WE.

[LnGrrrR]

What's this "WE" shit you got a turd in your pocket there are literally thousands of organizations that have been exposing this bullshit for years.No this is the burgeious wanting the poor to subsidize their domestic staff, this is the democrat party trying to stuff ballot boxes, this is a war on the concepts of citizenship and national sovergienty. YOU were fucking wrong not WE.

Right. I'm sure the Right never used illegal immigrants... lol

[ChumpDumper]

What's this "WE" shit you got a turd in your pocket there are literally thousands of organizations that have been exposing this bullshit for years.No this is the burgeious wanting the poor to subsidize their domestic staff, this is the democrat party trying to stuff ballot boxes, this is a war on the concepts of citizenship and national sovergienty. YOU were fucking wrong not WE.:lol

A micca meltdown in every post.

If you eat food or live in something that was built in the past thirty years, you have benefited. Now you found out it wasn't actually the bargain you thought it was.

You were wrong.

[hope4dopes]

:lol

A micca meltdown in every post.

If you eat food or live in something that was built in the past thirty years, you have benefited. Now you found out it wasn't actually the bargain you thought it was.

You were wrong. Live in something built in the last 30 Years? now you're embarassing yourself. you don't know anything about the construction bussiness when you spout off like this.
I don't live in the suburbs with you there alot of people living differenet lives than what you see on TV I make it a point not to do bussiness with people that create the desperation of American workers and exploit the desperation of mexican workers.
There alot of alternatives than getting your food at safeway, you might even try growing some yourself.not everybody has your lifestyle or wants it.

[hope4dopes]

Right. I'm sure the Right never used illegal immigrants... lol
This isn't left or right this is a greed thing.

[nuclearfm]

It's a shame this page is starting off bad, pg 5 actually had some bi partisan agreements

[ChumpDumper]

Live in something built in the last 30 Years? now you're embarassing yourself. you don't know anything about the construction bussiness when you spout off like this.
I don't live in the suburbs with you there alot of people living differenet lives than what you see on TV I make it a point not to do bussiness with people that create the desperation of American workers and exploit the desperation of mexican workers.
There alot of alternatives than getting your food at safeway, you might even try growing some yourself.not everybody has your lifestyle or wants it.:lmao

Another miccameltdown! You're like a See 'n Say.

The micca says.....:cuss:soapbox::pctoss:baby:domokun:donkey :madrun :dramaquee

Tell us all how you avoid everything in life that could possibly be tainted by the scourge of illegal immigrant labor.

Be specific.

[LnGrrrR]

It's a shame this page is starting off bad, pg 5 actually had some bi partisan agreements

That's cause micca joined. Has he ever shared anything fruitful?