Joe Wilson is a liar and a A-hole (censored)

[nuclearfm]

I just saw Joe Wilson on Hannity, STILL defending the merits of his outburst.

The guy still claims that "enforcement" amendments have not been included in the legislation, therefore the legislation can provide care for illegal immigrants.

The facts:
The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, and they could also buy into a new government-run insurance plan if Congress creates one. But unlike legal residents, they wouldn't get federal subsidies to help them. The bill's exact language: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully in the United States." Health care legislation in the Senate is also being crafted to exclude illegal immigrants from coverage.

Note to Joe Wilson. Not having an enforcement amendment (especially of the racial profiling to his liking) does not mean this bill introduces health care subsides to illegal immigrants.

Joe Wilson, one of many morons in existence.:owned

[jack sommerset]

Hannity is the place for him to go now. Everyone else on the national stage will crucify him. Obama is a liar and he is lying about not paying for illegals healthcare but that was not the arena burst out. Even a small one at that.

[nuclearfm]

Hannity is the place for him to go now. Everyone else on the national stage will crucify him. Obama is a liar and he is lying about not paying for illegals healthcare but that was not the arena burst out. Even a small one at that.

:lol Another moron outed. Any more takers?

[Yonivore]

The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage.
Can you cite the section of the bill so we can all read it together?

[nuclearfm]

Can you cite the section of the bill so we can all read it together?

Section 246, which is included in the part of the bill that sets up the exchange, forbids payments "on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Care to defend him? Feel free to discredit yourself.

[Yonivore]

Section 246, which is included in the part of the bill that sets up the exchange, forbids payments "on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Care to defend him? Feel free to discredit yourself.I already have...see my exhaustive post earlier in another thread.

Section 246 does no such thing, by the way.

[nuclearfm]

I already have...see my exhaustive post earlier in another thread.

Section 246 does no such thing, by the way.

Your posts up to 2 days back do not address it. Care to post it so we can read it together and later claim you're a moron? That is, if you have the guts. The internet is sort of against you.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&ei=h7upSpGkBYiIsgPppZDtBA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Section+246+hr+3200&spell=1&fp=6d02e072335ea48a

[Yonivore]

Here's what I said:


One of the talking points coming out of the Obama camp is that Obama wasn’t lying because Section 246, of H.R. 3200, specifically excludes illegal aliens from receiving Individual Affordability Credits. While that is true, it doesn’t exculpate the president. In fact, it is the exception which proves the rule. It only applies to the IAC’s and, since similar exclusionary language is absent from the other, critical aspects of the government health system (including eligibility for health care exchanges), -- and, since we can’t require applicants for coverage to demonstrate their citizenship – any good lawyer [and I presume his supporters consider Obama one of those] would recognize by specifically excluding illegal aliens from one narrow provision of the bill without doing so for other sections or, better, in a blanket provision covering the entire act, necessarily means illegal aliens are not excluded from other provisions.
See, I even predicted you would use Section 246...

[Yonivore]

Your posts up to 2 days back do not address it. Care to post it so we can read it together and later claim you're a moron? That is, if you have the guts.
That was this afternoon.

[nuclearfm]

Here's what I said:


"...since similar exclusionary language is absent from the other, critical aspects of the government health system (including eligibility for health care exchanges), -- and, since we can’t require applicants for coverage to demonstrate their citizenship – any good lawyer [and I presume his supporters consider Obama one of those]

See, I even predicted you would use Section 246...

Thanks,

So your saying because it does not prohibit it in secondary sections (you referenced eligibility), despite it explicitly prohibits them from receiving subsides (the primary benefit and goal) from this plan. Your saying this introduces new legislation that will allow immigrants will get subsidized health care? :lol

Nice boolean logic there. Not everyone can be Johnny Cochran. Try again.

[nuclearfm]

To summarize:

we've heard because the bill does not have:
1. enforcement amendments
2. prohibition in eligibility (and secondary sections)
3. anything else someone can pull out of their ass (maybe literally)

That means illegal immigrants could possibly get new subsidized health care under this legislation, despite it specifically prohibits it.

I only hope this represents a small portion of the population. Maybe this is a lawyerly quality, but it surely isn't indicative of good critical reading skills and logic.

[Yonivore]

Thanks,

So your saying because it does not prohibit it in secondary sections (you referenced eligibility), despite it explicitly prohibits them from receiving subsides (the primary benefit and goal) from this plan. Your saying this introduces new legislation that will allow immigrants will get subsidized health care? :lol

Nice boolean logic there. Not everyone can be Johnny Cochran. Try again.
Subsidies are the primary goal?

I thought it was health care.

In addition, HR3200 has no enforcement provisions for Section 246; no requirement to verify citizenship and, 2013, when health care exchanges ramp up, there is nothing prohibiting non-citizens from participating.

If you think illegal aliens won't be insured through ObamaCare, you also believe Obama will raise $500 billion of the $900 billion price tag by reducing waste and inefficiency in Medicare and Medicaid.

[nuclearfm]

Subsidies are the primary goal?

I thought it was health care.

In addition, HR3200 has no enforcement provisions for Section 246; no requirement to verify citizenship and, 2013, when health care exchanges ramp up, there is nothing prohibiting non-citizens from participating.

If you think illegal aliens won't be insured through ObamaCare, you also believe Obama will raise $500 billion of the $900 billion price tag by reducing waste and inefficiency in Medicare and Medicaid.

1. I'm referencing the goal (rather target, bad wording) of preventing subsidies to illegal immigrants. It's written in plain English, despite your moronic attempt to disprove it.
2. I don't believe he will eliminate near the amount claimed in medicare or medicaid. However those cuts are not part of the funding for the proposed health care legislation addition.
3. Illegal Immigrants can buy private insurance already. It's a completely separate issue to deal with.

[Wild Cobra]

The facts:
The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage.
Bullshit.

It only excludes a tax credit and advance tax credit. It does not exclude anything else.

[Yonivore]

Section 152 states that "all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services".

Legal status could be construed to be a "personal characteristic extraneous to the provision of...health care. So, while they won't get credits, they'll still get treatment.

Another provision states that if one member of a family is afforded coverage all members would have coverage, thereby creating another loophole to give taxpayer-subsidized health care to illegal aliens.

If a child of illegal aliens is born in the United States, then the entire family becomes eligible for coverage.

There is also the fundamental question of how will illegal aliens get medical care?

Well, if -- as the president claims -- they are truly cut out of ObamaCare, they medical care will continue to be taxpayer subsidized because they'll continue to go to emergency rooms across the nation and receive free care. There is no provision of HR3200 that removes the established law that requires hospitals to treat them.

Illegal Aliens will receive medical care under ObamaCare and, it will be subsidized -- either through creative interpretation of the law or, the old fashioned way -- they just receive it and send us the bill.

[nuclearfm]

Bullshit.

It only excludes a tax credit and advance tax credit. It does not exclude anything else.

What do you think those credits are for? Let's just assume they are not for health care and you're not a moron. The undocumented will still not get them and they will have a no better insurance situation than today.

You want to do something about that? Bring it up on the immigration issue.

[Wild Cobra]

Your posts up to 2 days back do not address it. Care to post it so we can read it together and later claim you're a moron? That is, if you have the guts. The internet is sort of against you.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&ei=h7upSpGkBYiIsgPppZDtBA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Section+246+hr+3200&spell=1&fp=6d02e072335ea48a
I addressed this two or three time now.

Page 143 of HB 3200 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf) says:


SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
Please note that "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS" is the title, not the law.

Affordability credits are filed on ones tax return. It's for those who purchase their own care. It does not stop illegals from being covered by any other means in the bill.

How many illegals file a tax return?

[Yonivore]

Pure and simple.

Illegal aliens received free (taxpayer subsidized) health care now.

Illegal aliens will continue to receive free (taxpayer subsidized) health care under ObamaCare unless the President's plan proposes a method for denying such care, and -- as best I can tell -- his plan doesn't do that.

The President lied.

[Wild Cobra]

Pure and simple.

Illegal aliens received free (taxpayer subsidized) health care now.

Illegal aliens will continue to receive free (taxpayer subsidized) health care under ObamaCare unless the President's plan proposes a method for denying such care, and -- as best I can tell -- his plan doesn't do that.

The President lied.
Absolutely correct.

[nuclearfm]

S

Legal status could be construed to be a "personal characteristic extraneous to the provision of...health care. So, while they won't get credits, they'll still get treatment.

Another provision states that if one member of a family is afforded coverage all members would have coverage, thereby creating another loophole to give taxpayer-subsidized health care to illegal aliens.



There is also the fundamental question of how will illegal aliens get medical care?




First bold. How is that different from today? They can't get subsidized care now either (from a federal program at least). Walk in situations at hospitals are a seperate issue. Why don't you check the Medicare and Medicaid required credentials.

2nd bold. That loophole is not for illegal aliens, that's for legal residents. You keep forgetting that it explicitly prohibits credits to non legal residents. It's like a broken record, you just don't get it. It's like someone is going to have to write that phrase on a dick and smack you with it. Eligibility does not equal credit, period.

[Yonivore]

First bold. How is that different from today? They can't get subsidized care now either.
The hell they can't. They waltz right into Brackenridge Hospital, here in Austin, and get it every day.


2nd bold. That loophole is not for illegal aliens, that's for legal residents. You leep forgetting that it explicitly prohibits credits to non legal residents. It's like a broken record, you just don't get it. It's like someone is going to have to write that phrase on a dick and smack you with it. Eligibility does not equal credit, period.
You don't get it. And, I understand why. The administration has craftily changed the debate from one of "health care" reform to one of "health insurance" reform.

If you don't address the fact illegal aliens now receive free (taxpayer subsidized) health care now -- they're going to continue receiving it.

I think the bill should have a provision that:

1) requires recipients of subsidized health care to prove they are a U.S. Citizen; and,

2) if not, they are denied non-emergency care and referred to their country of origin (preferably deported but, that's another argument); or,

3) given emergency care, stabilized, and deported to their country of origin.

They're a drain on the health care system, take a disproportionate share of finite health care resources, and are -- whether you admit it or not -- subsidized.

[nuclearfm]

To continue the summary:

we've heard because :
1. the bill does not have enforcement amendments
2. the bill does not have prohibition in eligibility (and secondary sections)
3. the bill has a family provision to make a family eligible
4. illegal aliens receive some subsidies now (by varity of means, ER walk in etc.)
5. anything else someone can pull out of their ass (maybe literally)

That means illegal immigrants could possibly get new subsidized health care/credits under this legislation, despite it specifically prohibits it.

eh, morons.

[Yonivore]

To continue the summary:

we've heard because :
1. the bill does not have enforcement amendments
2. the bill does not have prohibition in eligibility (and secondary sections)
3. the bill has a family provision to make a family eligible
4. illegal aliens receive some subsidies now (by varity of means, ER walk in etc.)
5. anything else someone can pull out of their ass (maybe literally)

That means illegal immigrants could possibly get new subsidized health care/credits under this legislation, despite it specifically prohibits it.

eh, morons.
Two questions nuclearfm.

If illegal aliens get sick or injured in America, will they be treated?

If you answer yes to that, who pays the bill when they don't?

And, now, you're changing the argument. The bill does not specifically prohibit the provision of health CARE, just the awarding of credits. Illegal aliens don't need credits.

[nuclearfm]

The hell they can't. They waltz right into Brackenridge Hospital, here in Austin, and get it every day.





I'm afraid you are the on who doesn't get it. You can't win your argument, so you cloud it up with other crap. This legislation is not meant to fix the problem of illegal immigration, no matter how much you want it to.

Hospital walk-ins will still exists no matter what we do unless you deal with illegal imigration. Puting some clause to prevent care from all, doesn't prevent someone walking without coverage and still getting law enforced treatment.

[Yonivore]

I'm afraid you are the on who doesn't get it. You can't win your argument, so you cloud it up with other crap. This legislation is not meant to fix the problem of illegal immigration, no matter how much you want it to.

Hospital walk-ins will still exists no matter what we do unless you deal with illegal imigration. Puting some clause to prevent care from all, doesn't prevent someone walking without coverage and still getting law enforced treatment.
The drain on medical resources by illegal aliens is a huge problem. Health care reform needs to address it and can do so without having to tack illegal immigration.

[nuclearfm]

Two questions nuclearfm.

If illegal aliens get sick or injured in America, will they be treated?

If you answer yes to that, who pays the bill when they don't?

one question:

Anybody who's sick or injured will get treated. That's the law. Illegal immigration - separate issue.

That's all I'm going to say. I refuse to bring myself down to this moronic level anymore. For some reason, the most idiotic tend to be the most outspoken.

[Winehole23]

By dint of railing at idiots, one runs the risk of becoming an idiot oneself.

--Gustave Flaubert

[Wild Cobra]

That means illegal immigrants could possibly get new subsidized health care/credits under this legislation, despite it specifically prohibits it.

eh, morons.
You're the Moore-on. It only excludes the tax credit, to illegals, who don't file taxes anyway. It does not exclude any other part of the bill.

They still get full coverage, far more than today.

[exstatic]

Pssst. GOP....this is better (and probably cheaper) than that stupid border wall. Anyone who walks in to an ER without health care will be an illegal alien. Patch them up, and send them home...to Mexico. It's like human fly paper.

[nuclearfm]

You're the Moore-on. It only excludes the tax credit, to illegals, who don't file taxes anyway. It does not exclude any other part of the bill.

The still get full coverage, far more than today.

You're right, This bill makes us all pay more for illegal immigrants. I should have read between the letters. They need to propose a bill that allows them to file a tax return while granting immediate citizenship. That way, they would be American citizens and their employers can use their newly given social security numbers to get the credit, rather than that non existing tax credit although already existing between the letters loophole that gave the credit anyway.

[antimvp]

does any fucking body realize that illegals get free healthcare now...

[Yonivore]

does any fucking body realize that illegals get free healthcare now...
Yeah, that debate is being had in at least three threads, right now.

By failing to address that in his Health Care plan, Obama will continue to provide free (tax-payer subsidized) health care to illegal aliens. In other words, Joe Wilson was right, Obama lied.

[Wild Cobra]

does any fucking body realize that illegals get free healthcare now...
Yes, but it's not the same standard as HB 3200 will grant them.

[Winehole23]

Doctors are morally, professionally and legally required to provide the care, right now. Putting that on Obama is bogus.

[Wild Cobra]

Doctors are morally, professionally and legally required to provide the care, right now. Putting that on Obama is bogus.
Well, let's just hope you don't have a family member that needs a heart transplant, but the illegal alien gets it instead.

[Yonivore]

Doctors are morally, professionally and legally required to provide the care, right now. Putting that on Obama is bogus.
Doctor's are morally, professionally, and legally obligated to provide life-saving, emergency care. They don't have to give you annual physicals, flu shots, or remove your bunions.

[nuclearfm]

Well, let's just hope you don't have a family member that needs a heart transplant, but the illegal alien gets it instead.

Eh, you know That's really just plain hateful. Organ transplant criteria isn't restricted just to American citizens, people from other countries get that done here. I think that sufficient to call you a xenophobe or racist.

[Winehole23]

Yes, but it's not the same standard as HB 3200 will grant them.What does HB 3200 give them again? Cite the provisions specifically, if you can.

[Winehole23]

Doctor's are morally, professionally, and legally obligated to provide life-saving, emergency care. They don't have to give you annual physicals, flu shots, or remove your bunions.They'll give that kind of care to anyone who can pay. What's wrong with that?

Was that what we're talking about?

[Laker Lanny]

http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/archives/178894.asp?source=mypi

[nuclearfm]

What does HB 3200 give them again? Cite the provisions specifically, if you can.

You're missing the irrelevant points, gosh.

TS9ojNB6mgA

[Winehole23]

Illegal aliens don't go to the emergency room for flu shots, annual physicals and bunions. I think. Am I wrong about this?

[ElNono]

Illegal aliens don't go to the emergency room for flu shots, annual physicals and bunions. I think. Am I wrong about this?

No. But you're not helping Yoni spread his fearmongering.

[Wild Cobra]

No. But you're not helping Yoni spread his fearmongering.
Point is that illegals will get everything everyone else gets, except the tax credit.

[Winehole23]

Point is that illegals will get everything everyone else gets, except the tax credit.Unless they file their income taxes, as you suggested they do.

[Winehole23]

Weren't you just complaining that they get the tax credit?

[ElNono]

Point is that illegals will get everything everyone else gets, except the tax credit.

Between WH23 and me, we already asked you at least 3 times to show us where the law grants anything to illegal aliens. You still haven't delivered.

[nuclearfm]

Weren't you just complaining that they get the tax credit?

No, you're right he was complaining that they couldn't get it. He would rather have them get it, along with the employer tax credits and the numerous indirect benefits that it entails. He's really a liberal when you get beyond the whole trailer trash surface.

[nuclearfm]

Between WH23 and me, we already asked you at least 3 times to show us where the law grants anything to illegal aliens. You still haven't delivered.

How exactly is the sky blue?
How exactly does the sun set?
How exactly does the positrac rear end on a Plymouth work?

It just does.

[Winehole23]

Between WH23 and me, we already asked you at least 3 times to show us where the law grants anything to illegal aliens. You still haven't delivered.It's in what the law doesn't address: the moral and professional obligation of doctors to provide acute care to anyone who needs it.

[Winehole23]

No, you're right he was complaining that they couldn't get it. He would rather have them get it, along with the employer tax credits and the numerous indirect benefits that it entails. He's really a liberal when you get beyond the whole trailer trash surface.According to SpursTalk legend, WC was once a wishy-washy moderate, and has been reborn as a faux conservative. I haven't checked the record, but I find this plausible, given how much he moves the goal posts to suit his argument.

[Nbadan]

WC had never been a moderate....he leans Libertarian-Republican, like always

[hater]

The guy still claims that "enforcement" amendments have not been included in the legislation, therefore the legislation can provide care for illegal immigrants.


this is kinda like saying a new highway should not open because illegals will be able to use it. The highway must require "enforcement" amendments agains illegals.

crazy

illegals have access to 99% of govmt/private services.

[hater]

btw this guy is cashing out. $200k just in 1 day.

wonder how much of that money is from Healthcare execs?

[jack sommerset]

:lol Another moron outed. Any more takers?

Obama being a liar is the easiest thing to prove. You are the moron.

[Wild Cobra]

Unless they file their income taxes, as you suggested they do.
Wake up Bueller.

That is the only thing spelled out concerning illegal aliens, that they will not get the tax credit. It's called an "affordability credit."

[hater]

LOL @ ppl thinking this guy is gonna go away

dude is gonna be the face of the republicans and gonna run for VP along with Palin for Pres next elections

[Winehole23]

But if the government neither checks nor enforces eligibility, as previously suggested, what will prevent it?

[Wild Cobra]

Between WH23 and me, we already asked you at least 3 times to show us where the law grants anything to illegal aliens. You still haven't delivered.
Then remain ignorant. All of HB 3200 applies to all people in the USA unless otherwise specified. That is why illegals get everything everyone else does except the affordability credit.

The laws apply to everyone here, right?

[nuclearfm]

Then remain ignorant. All of HB 3200 applies to all people in the USA unless otherwise specified. That is why illegals get everything everyone else does except the affordability credit.

The laws apply to everyone here, right?

So you'd rather have "illegal immigrants" explicitly excluded in every single spending bill from here on out? That's much better that dealing with immigration reform directly and more efficient. :lol

Even though, this explicitly excludes the subsidies/credits. You know the funny thing is, it's pretty obvious even if it did include that in every passage and included more republican ideas like tort reform you'd still be screaming and bitching about it this bill. All straws on the table.

[Wild Cobra]

So you'd rather have "illegal immigrants" explicitly excluded in every single spending bill from here on out? That's much better that dealing with immigration reform directly and more efficient. :lol

Even though, this explicitly excludes the subsidies/credits. You know the funny thing is, it's pretty obvious even if it did include that in every passage and included more republican ideas like tort reform you'd still be screaming and bitching about it this bill. All straws on the table.
All I want is to make it impossible for illegal aliens to find work, and not allow them to receive social programs. That will take care of the largest burden we bear in supporting them. If they have family or friends that will house and feed them, fine. Make it mandatory to check employees legal residency status, and seriously fine and/or jail employers who break such laws.

Most illegal aliens will then return home, or go elsewhere.

[nuclearfm]

All I want is to make it impossible for illegal aliens to find work, and not allow them to receive social programs. That will take care of the largest burden we bear in supporting them. If they have family or friends that will house and feed them, fine. Make it mandatory to check employees legal residency status, and seriously fine and/or jail employers who break such laws.

Most illegal aliens will then return home, or go elsewhere.


You attack immigration reform to prevent that. As the law stands it is impossible to make anything you propose impossible, they must receive care (various magnitudes by state) whether they are documented (including tourist) or not.

The largest burden we bear in supporting them is them being able to receive free care anyway.Unless you, yourself prefer the dealth panel approach. We could change the law to make life saving care at the hospital optional.

This is clearly straw grabbing and not critical to your dislike of the bill. Just come out and say you hate the whole thing and Obama. I would call you a moron, but I think it's passed to the point of hatred by any means. You're just plain destructive. Most people would be more constructive talking to a dining room table.

[BadMoodBob]

Whatever it takes to increase polarization on this country's political stage.

Wilson's outburst made me happy I stayed up for what would have otherwise been just another 1 hour production of words.