Racism and the NBA age limit

[Kori Ellis]

Stern wants NBA age limit raised to 20
ESPN.com news services


Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal said he thinks racism might have something to do with the NBA's desire to put an age limit in the next collective bargaining agreement.

"In the last two or three years, the rookie of the year has been a high school player. There were seven high school players in the All-Star Game, so why we even talking an age limit?" O'Neal said.

The past two rookies of the year were drafted out of high school: The Cavaliers' LeBron James was the 2003-04 rookie of the year, while the Suns' Amare Stoudemire won the award after the 2002-03 season.

Players currently have to be at least 18 to be drafted, but NBA commissioner David Stern would like to see the age raised to 20.

"We are seeking to raise that to 20 or two years out of high school. The NFL's minimum age is 3 years after high school. I'm optimistic the union will agree to some raise in the minimum age in the current collective bargaining," Stern said in a recent ESPN.com chat.

O'Neal doesn't agree with Stern's agenda, however.

"As a black guy, you kind of think [race is] the reason why it's coming up.

"You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?" O'Neal said.

If the NBA had the age limit Stern is proposing in 1996, O'Neal would have had to postpone the start of his NBA career.

O'Neal went to the NBA straight out of high school in 1996 and was drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers, who made him the 17th overall selection.

O'Neal didn't blossom into the star he is today until he was dealt to the Pacers during the 2000 offseason. He has made the past three Eastern Conference All-Star teams.

[T Park]

As a black guy, you kind of think [race is] the reason why it's coming up

Yeah Jermaine, the NBA is aband of racists hating black kids.

Forget that huge brand new 100 million dollar contract you just signed.

Yeah, the NBA hates black kids, thats why you make so much money you fucking ignorant fuck.

[Kori Ellis]

I posted this, not really for Jermaine's comments. But perhaps to strike up discussion regarding Stern's idea of a 20-year-old age minimum. I think that most people here are against it, but I'm not sure.

What are the pros and cons?
Discuss.

[orhe]

well for one im really against it.
not every 18 year old can succeed like lebron has done.
what will happen to the young kids who didn't make it?

i say let them get 2 years of college because that would really help them maturity wise.

and that would push through after their basketball years

[bonesinaz]

I think that the NBA should raise the age to 20. Many of the players that go directly to the NBA are throwing away a chance at a paid college education with both hands.

There is more to life than money.

[T Park]

In leu of a drafting age.

I would propose a minor league team for EVERY team.

So that your able to bring over euro prospects, IR fodder, and High School players.

Not totally for it, but not totally against it.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, the NBA hates black kids, thats why you make so much money you fucking ignorant fuck.

The reason he said it, I think, is because there is a lot of ambient opposition to young basketball players earning such huge salaries, in a way that doesn't poke up in other sports, perhaps because individual players don't have such a high profile as they do in the NBA, perhaps because the majority of those players are black. The opposition of some people have against the NBA, such as Rush Limbaugh, is clearly racial in nature.

The thing is, raising the age limit will not prevent high schoolers from declaring for the draft. My understanding is that they would earn whatever pay-scale they'd normally get on their rookie contracts, only they'd be playing on an NBDL team instead of riding the bench on an NBA team, at least until the point they are ready.

It is too bad so many kids are discouraged from getting their college diplomas, but really, I would never, ever pass up guaranteed millions in order to go to college. That's just stupid. You can always go back and get your degree. Me, personally, I'll never see a million dollars in my life, and cannot blame these kids for making the jump. What is truly dishonest is how the NCAA uses so many kids and makes huge dollars off of them with very little in compensation. Yes, absolutely, there are programs that encourage them to get their diplomas, but otherwise so many schools have turned into basketball (or football) farms where programs and the NCAA and coaches get rich without ever being concerned about these kids' futures.

I don't think O'Neal well spoke what he meant with this statement, but he does recognize that there is a huge apparatus for making lots of money off of super-athletic, talented, predominantly black kids from wretched backgrounds. He sees the league trying to take away from these kids a means for making a living, and I agree. Though I agree with the NBDL idea, a minor league. I have no problem with high schoolers bypassing a duplicitous college system to earn money for themselves, but am very glad the league is addressing using a minor league system.

I think it's wrong to call O'Neal an idiot on this topic. It's really obnoxious. He knows far more about this subject than you ever will.

[Al Sharpton]

Why does everyone blame the black man?

[ShoogarBear]

I think that the NBA should raise the age to 20. Many of the players that go directly to the NBA are throwing away a chance at a paid college education with both hands.

There is more to life than money.
Why isn't the same true for baseball and hockey?

[howbouthemspurs]

I dont think this should even be an issue...O'neal is right with one aspect... "If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?"

This is a good comment... but on the other hand the country is not paying you 100 million dollars to fight the war and if the country did then everybody will be joining.
But Its much easier to join the army and go to war than to get drafted for the NBA for any age.

So I guess yes this should be an issue.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I cannot stress enough how much i agree with this.

Not only will it improve the college game which is starting to become a 3 point contest, but it will also improve the nba game...what is there to lose???


Players become rookie of the year out of high school, good for them. But what would they have done their rookie season if they spent two, (and god forbid, four) years in college? Would they be worse or better players? Would they have worse or better chances at that rookie trophy?

The only drawback is getting injured in college, and ending your career. But how often does this really happen? It's just used as an excuse to skip an education and get rich quick.
Yes these guys love basketball, but an education lasts for life too, so thats yet another reason.

Hone your skills in college, get fame in college, get girls, stardom, etc, in college (everything you'd get as an nba star minus the [official] payday)

then come to the nba with a honed game, contributing much more in your first season to a team than you would have other wise (unless your name is lebron)

[ShoogarBear]

Why limit it to the NBA? Why not all jobs in the US?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

there are age limits to all jobs in the us

[ShoogarBear]

Not true at all

Musicians, actors, every other entertainment job you can name have no age limit.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

But it isn't 20.

yeah, but the age limits are still set, taking into account certain costs and benefits.

why be 18 just to serve alcohol? the drinking age isnt 18, how does that make sense? the government just thought it was the best policy

[Mr. Body]

Not only will it improve the college game which is starting to become a 3 point contest, but it will also improve the nba game...what is there to lose???

PLEASE note: THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Read this link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNDQ3MW9lBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwNv ZQ--?slug=ageminimumwillhavemaximu&prov=tsn&type=lgns

In two or three years' time, there will be 15 NBDL teams, each one serving the needs for two NBA teams. Players younger than 20 MAY BE drafted, but will have to play in the NBDL until they come of age. THEY WILL NOT GO TO COLLEGE, since it appears they will be earning their rookie-base salary anyway. Not sure how this will work out, but this IS NOT a salve and tonic for the problems of NCAA basketball.

[Das Texan]

Many of the kids that are drafted straight out of high school are not ready. Plain and simple. The overall quality of play in the league by and far would increase at least fundamentally with an age limit, but only if you use the NBDL as a true minor league system where you can truly develop the kids. the former NHL and MLB have minor league systems where they can work on developing their kids. the NBA doesnt have that and needs that.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

PLEASE note: THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Read this link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNDQ3MW9lBF9TAzk1ODYxOTQ4BHNlYwNv ZQ--?slug=ageminimumwillhavemaximu&prov=tsn&type=lgns

In two or three years' time, there will be 15 NBDL teams, each one serving the needs for two NBA teams. Players younger than 20 MAY BE drafted, but will have to play in the NBDL until they come of age. THEY WILL NOT GO TO COLLEGE, since it appears they will be earning their rookie-base salary anyway. Not sure how this will work out, but this IS NOT a salve and tonic for the problems of NCAA basketball.


ok, so that wont happen. but the rule will still increase NBA quality, without a doubt. Look at Robert Swift. Who is robert swift?

The 18 year old red head 7 footer seattle super sonics grabbed with a draft pick. Why haven't you heard of him? Because he is in no possible way ready to play in the NBA.

Look at Darko Milicic for goodness sake.....even the blind pistons fans who insist he's going to be the shit with no good proof can't deny that he botches all his moves he tries in the 2-3 minutes he gets here and there. I've seen him on tv. I saw this happen.

Not every high school player is lebron.

Most of them have no business in this league. They take up bench space.

Look at Devin Brown. Surely you admit he is a really good bench player. He wasnt even drafted because scouts and media were too busy looking at people like Sebastian Telfair who are only popular because of relation to Stephon Marbury, getting an ADIDAS contract, and scoring alot of points in high school

[MI21]

Maybe they should put an age limit on golf and tennis etc.

[infinite styles]

I believe that the NBA needs to go through with the idea of a farm system like baseball has and add about 2 more rounds to the draft. This will allow the teams to pick players that are experienced and more capable of handling the NBA game rather than grabbing the biggest media name off the board before someone else does. I know that Drafting players isn't an exact science but the league needs to find a way to control some GM's draft day decisions. If you want a high school player than go ahead and draft him but if you feel like he's not ready then place him on the farm team until he is. If you do this I believe that the duds that some teams draft will minimize and return more favorable play within the league. Also (this may be out there) but why not incorporate college study programs into the farm league for players that did not either attend college for two years or complete college. This of course could be optional to the players but at least it gives them another avenue to attain a degree.

I also believe that colleges should start paying athletes while they are under elegibility and maintain at least a 2.5 GPA in real college courses. I'm not talking about hundred thousand dollar contracts but more like maybe $500-750 a month to allow student athletes a chance to have a little spending money during the season since they are not allowed to have jobs during that time. I know that this won't keep most of the players in school but it will allow colleges to persuade those that are not ready for the jump to stay until they at least graduate.

To be honest your never going to solve the problems that colleges and professional sports are having while large amounts of money are involved, but you can take a stab at relieving the issues with change for the better.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Well i would not agree on golf because i dont consider golf a sport.

It's a game.

[Mr. Body]

Most of them have no business in this league. They take up bench space.

I agree it will help the league. The NCAA needs to figure its own problems out. (Extend the 3-point line, whatever.)

The NBDL could potentially be very interesting. The Players' Union should go for it in a heartbeat, since it retains these kids' pay scales, plus it means a number of other players in salaries, as well. A big plus, all around, for players in general. The NBDL could be a training ground and heighten fundamentals. Plus, it would be a place for new coaches to ply their wares and it would mean new markets for basketball. This looks like a great idea.

[Kori Ellis]

PLEASE note: THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Read this link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...v=tsn&type=lgns

In two or three years' time, there will be 15 NBDL teams, each one serving the needs for two NBA teams. Players younger than 20 MAY BE drafted, but will have to play in the NBDL until they come of age.

That's just that writer's opinion -- and to me it's actually ideal, I said it earlier this season. But I believe that Stern's proposed age limit will not allow players under 20 to be drafted under any circumstances. So teams wouldn't be able to draft them and stash them in the NBDL. But this is one of the things they'll be talking about this summer.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I also believe that colleges should start paying athletes while they are under elegibility and maintain at least a 2.5 GPA in real college courses.


I kinda alluded to this earlier, but i guess i'm one of the people who believe that most really good, professional-bound college athletes receive more than enough compensation than they would get not being college athletes.

[TNT21]

Seems like everything with Jermaine leads to some sort of racism or discrimination. But anyway, in his case when he was drafted in 96 or 97 he WAS NOT ready to come in and produce in the NBA, shit he didn't even become a good player until 2000. I truly believe if he would of gone to college he would of developed and have been ready to come out and kick some ass in the NBA. Instead he comes in as a highschooler and sucks ass for about 3 or 4 years. But whatever, I think the NBA should have some sort of age limit, but I also believe if there is a "LEBRON JAMES" out there, then they should try him out during the summer leagues to see if he is "ALL THAT". If he does kick ass then hey welcome to the NBA, but if he doesn't then to college with your ass! Just my 2cents!

[MI21]

Musicians, actors, every other entertainment job you can name have no age limit.

Strippers? :)

[kukjavel]

"You don't hear about it in baseball or hockey. To say you have to be 20, 21 to get in the league, it's unconstitutional. If I can go to the U.S. Army and fight the war at 18 why can't you play basketball for 48 minutes?" O'Neal said.

I hate it when people think it's their right to play in the NBA or in any other league (like that guy wanted to do in the NFL sorry I forgot his name). Athletes now-a-days seem to take this as more of a right that a privelage. Maybe some time in college will teach them that the constitution doesn't say you have a right to play in the NBA or NFL for millions of dollars. I just wanted to say that. I'm new here so don't blast me please. Oh yeah I also hate it when someone compares sports to fighting in a war. I've never heard a soldier come back from war and say "hey it felt like I just played basketball for a year and a half."

[timvp]

An age limit makes no sense for the NBA. Do you think Tony Parker would be better off right now as a senior in college somewhere?

Of course not. The college game would have made him a worse pro player.

The way the game is played in college and the way the game is played in the NBA is too different. Players become good at skills that they'll never use in the NBA in college. At least if you are sitting on an NBA team's injured list for a couple seasons, you get to learn the NBA life and practice against NBA players.

The way to solve this problem is to have a minor leagues -- not an age limit.

[ShoogarBear]

yeah, but the age limits are still set, taking into account certain costs and benefits.

why be 18 just to serve alcohol? the drinking age isnt 18, how does that make sense? the government just thought it was the best policy
You can go get killed for the government at 18, but you can't get paid to play basketball? That makes sense.

Anyway, I edited my original response to this:


Not true at all

Musicians, actors, every other entertainment job you can name have no age limit.
Basketball is an entertainment business. Why limit the age for it when you don't limit it for other entertainment jobs?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You can go get killed for the government at 18, but you can't get paid to play basketball? That makes sense.

Anyway, I edited my original response to this:


Basketball is an entertainment business. Why limit the age for it when you don't limit it for other entertainment jobs?


Well someone here already said you shouldn't compare fighting in a war to playing a sport. I'll just assume you read that.

And then someone also mentioned strippers as an entertainment job with an age limit. I'll assume you read that now too.

[ShoogarBear]

Well i would not agree on golf because i dont consider golf a sport.

It's a game.
Okay, this argument falls off the edge.

It's okay to not have an age limit for golf because it's a game, not a sport?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

An age limit makes no sense for the NBA. Do you think Tony Parker would be better off right now as a senior in college somewhere?

Of course not. The college game would have made him a worse pro player.

The way the game is played in college and the way the game is played in the NBA is too different. Players become good at skills that they'll never use in the NBA in college. At least if you are sitting on an NBA team's injured list for a couple seasons, you get to learn the NBA life and practice against NBA players.

The way to solve this problem is to have a minor leagues -- not an age limit.

I dont think Parker would have necessarily became a worse pro-player. I know the games are played differently, but they're still not different games. They still involve the same core concepts and skills.

The minor league idea is a good one, but I still think it should come with more strict rules about high schoolers, because nothing changes the fact that NBA skill level is becoming watered down.

I saw a behind the lines episode on FOXSW last night about 3 point shooting. Anyone catch it? They had veterans, coaches, and Kerr interviewed. Just about every person interviewed (except Kyle Korver) said that the entire approach to a basic fundamental skill of bball (long distance shooting) is totally ass backwards today cuz kids don't know whats up.

thats just an example im using.

These kids need more time to work on their games. The minor league with no age limit could serve for the same goal. The high schoolers that make it really big in the NBA are the freakishly awesome athletes. I think we've just had a spurt of those the past 2 or 3 years, but these spurts dont last forever.

And still, what would 2 years from professional ball do to hurt guys like lebron and amare? What negative effects could come from this?

[ShoogarBear]

Well someone here already said you shouldn't compare fighting in a war to playing a sport. I'll just assume you read that.
And what they actually said was pretty dumb; I wouldn't recommend you it that for your argument:


Oh yeah I also hate it when someone compares sports to fighting in a war. I've never heard a soldier come back from war and say "hey it felt like I just played basketball for a year and a half." War is worse than basketball, therefore we should restrict access to basketball? WTF kind of logic is that?



And then someone also mentioned strippers as an entertainment job with an age limit. I'll assume you read that now too.So that's the sum total of your argument? Basketball = strippers? But golf is a game, therefore it's okay for 17 and 18 year olds to be pro?

You'd do better to come up with some points of your own.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

you said all entertainment occupations dont have age limits
someone said strippers
that equals you being wrong

we're talking about nba basketball, a sport
not golf, a game
even if we keep golf a sport
we're talking nba basketball, not golf
get it?

[MI21]

And then someone also mentioned strippers as an entertainment job with an age limit. I'll assume you read that now too.

I was just joking with ShoogarBear. I respect his opinion and agree 100% with him. Don't try and use my joke as reasoning for your argument, because using it and actually thinking people will agree with you and think it is a valid point is laughable.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

but it is a valid point because strippers are entertainers and there is an age limit and he said "every other entertainment job"

what is so hard to understand about that

the whole point is not every entertainment job is free of age limits

[PM5K]

Gee Jermaine, you think it might have something to do with you averaging four points per game your first four seasons (those years that you would have been in college)?

Or maybe the disaster that is Kwame Brown, or a number of other all-stars that put up low numbers their first few years, why water down the NBA with raw talent when you can make the college game better and prepare these guys to play real basketball in the NBA....

[Cant_Be_Faded]

or can girls be stippers at age 10 now

i guess that is laughable because they can be stippers at age 10

[timvp]

I dont think Parker would have necessarily became a worse pro-player. I know the games are played differently, but they're still not different games. They still involve the same core concepts and skills.

Not exactly, because college stars don't always translate to the NBA. You could be one of the best players in the country (Trajon Langdon, Ed O'Bannon, Chris Carawell, etc, etc) and have no NBA potential. It's a totally different game. The college game is more about zone defense and shooting over those zone. The NBA game is more about individual talent.


The minor league idea is a good one, but I still think it should come with more strict rules about high schoolers, because nothing changes the fact that NBA skill level is becoming watered down.

I doubt that players like LeBron, Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire are doing anything to water down the NBA's talent.


I saw a behind the lines episode on FOXSW last night about 3 point shooting. Anyone catch it? They had veterans, coaches, and Kerr interviewed. Just about every person interviewed (except Kyle Korver) said that the entire approach to a basic fundamental skill of bball (long distance shooting) is totally ass backwards today cuz kids don't know whats up.

thats just an example im using.

The shooters in today's game are better than any shooters in any era. Look at the stats. Never was it in the NBA that teams could put five three-point threats on the court at the same time. Today, NBA teams often can.


These kids need more time to work on their games. The minor league with no age limit could serve for the same goal. The high schoolers that make it really big in the NBA are the freakishly awesome athletes. I think we've just had a spurt of those the past 2 or 3 years, but these spurts dont last forever.

It's just the beginning. The MJ era started the most popular time for the NBA. Kids are just now in the age group that they grew up in the environment that basketball is the most highly-respected sport.


And still, what would 2 years from professional ball do to hurt guys like lebron and amare? What negative effects could come from this?

Imagine this:

LeBron goes to North Carolina for two years and the University and the NCAA make hundreds and hundreds of million dollars off of LeBron James averaging a triple double. Everyone has an NC LeBron jersey. The NCAA sells its television rights for double the previous amount.

LeBron blows out his knee. He never had an NBA career and the millions of dollars he would have had are now in other people's hands.

I'd call that a negative effect.

[ShoogarBear]

you said all entertainment occupations dont have age limits
someone said strippers
that equals you being wrong

we're talking about nba basketball, a sport
not golf, a game
even if we keep golf a sport
we're talking nba basketball, not golf
get it?
Got it.

We should have an age limit because it's NBA basketball.

If it was war or golf, then no age limit necessary.

Crystal clear.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Not exactly, but college starts don't always translate to the NBA. You could be one of the best players in the country (Trajon Langdon, Ed O'Bannon, Chris Carawell, etc, etc) and have no NBA potential. It's a totally different game. The college game is more about zone defense and shooting over those zone. The NBA game is more about individual talent.



I doubt that players like LeBron, Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire are doing anything to water down the NBA's talent.



The shooters in today's game are better than any shooters in any era. Look at the stats. Never was it in the NBA that teams could put five three-point threats on the court at the same time. Today, NBA teams often can.



It's just the beginning. The MJ era started the most popular time for the NBA. Kids are just now in the age group that they grew up in the environment that basketball is the most highly-respected sport.



Imagine this:

LeBron goes to North Carolina for two years and the University and the NCAA make hundreds and hundreds of million dollars off of LeBron James averaging a triple double. Everyone has an NC LeBron jersey. The NCAA sells its television rights for double the previous amount.

LeBron blows out his knee. He never had an NBA career and the millions of dollars he would have had are now in other people's hands.

I'd call that a negative effect.


Okay....well...
For every lebron, theres 2 kwames out there. You just dont know all their names cuz their not lebron.

And youre right/wrong about shooting. They actually showed statistics on that show last night, and although three points made are up as you say, the percentages are wayyyyy down for the average player, as well as overall scoring.
Plus, the decrease in scoring coincided with the increase in 3 points attempted. (since the nba three point line till this season)

And only the suns and sonics can truely pull that 5 person three point threat. Not every team has that.

And injuries are the only thing that can be said negative, i admitted that earlier, so maybe i shoulda been more precise.

But, i just believe if you have the talent in you, you're going to make it in the NBA regardless. If you learn how to bust zones in college, then more power to you, because we see more zones in today's NBA.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Got it.

We should have an age limit because it's NBA basketball.

If it was war or golf, then no age limit necessary.

Crystal clear.


Do i have to type this out in symbolic logic to you or are you just that stupid?

you were the first to say 'all entertaineres have no age limit'

and all im saying is youre wrong by saying that.

whether age limits in the nba is good or bad is still up in the air, hence this topic

[ShoogarBear]

Anyone who thinks a comparison of professional athletes to strippers is valid should be careful about throwing around the term "stupid".

[Cant_Be_Faded]

as opposed to comparing nba players to singers and actors?

[Kori Ellis]

Please stop the petty bullshit and go back to the topic.

[ShoogarBear]

Pretty funny that you have yet to come up with an argument of your own in this particular track. You could only latch onto a tongue-in-cheek one-liner by somebody who disagrees with you.

For the record, I would like to see more players stay in school and get more experience. However, that has to be voluntary on their part. To legislate it is about the most un-American thing I can think of.

Maybe NBA players aren't real enough 'muricans for you.

[Mr. Body]

OK... Kwame Brown. He didn't pan out. So what? Neither did Olowokandi. Thing is, he got paid, and that's entirely to the point. Not every player pans out, college or otherwise. Who really gets killed are the poor high schoolers who some agent gets his mitts on and then doesn't get drafted. But there are con men in every field of human endeavor.

There are two things operating here:

1) The league was watered-down for a while, and now seems to be on an up-swing. I credit Bill Simmons for getting me to think about this. A period in the early to mid-80s, there were some incredibly strong drafts, with Magic and Bird to Olajuwon to Robinson coming into the league. A period after that, from the late-80s into the 90s, perhaps up to Shaq's draft, there were some incredibly weak drafts. Not a lot of talent was coming into the league. You got your Derrick Colemans and secondary talents like Sean Elliott and Glen Rice being the top few draft picks every year. When these players started hitting their prime, the older players were retiring. The younger players couldn't fill the gap. By the time MJ retired, the league was trying to market Jerry Stackhouse, Stephon Marbury, Allan Houston, those kinds of players, as the next big things. Which wasn't happening. Duncan's draft was pretty shallow, but after that, you started having a steady inflow of new talent, which is now paying off in a big way, with the LeBron-Wade-Mello draft being huge.

The league is still fighting the old image of bad basketball. It will take a little time.

2) Race. There is undeniably a racial aspect to all this. Nobody cares if tennis players do or do not go to college, or do or do not make millions of dollars, or do or do not bang tons of groupies. Nobody cares about baseball players or hockey players or, really, football players, unless they try to murder somebody. Basketball simply holds out over all other sports in the visibility of its stars - they don't wear helmets or hats, and their games depend on a great deal of personal expertise. America will always have an issue with young black males - there is not a more closely examined, closely watched, and closely emulated group of people in the world. We fret about them not going to college, we fret about them making millions of dollars. We fret about their image, about the images they're not making. We get bothered when they make a lot of money doing the things we wish we could do.

All this is unfair. These kids should be given the chance to earn some money for themselves and their families. Conversely, of course, the league should be concerned about a watered-down league (which, as above, is getting better). What I see from Hunter, the rep for the Players' Union, and from Stern, really has me hopeful, that once again the NBA will be the benchmark for all other major sporting leagues. Expanding the NBDL in a way that allows talent to grow within its nurturing confines and without completely ignoring the fact that a large proportion of the best players in the NBA today came straight out of college, is quite a feat, and they should be commended for tackling the issue in this manner.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think players should work on their games more before taking up space on an NBA roster. Alot of these guys are drafted on potential alone. It does pay off. Sometimes it doesnt. If we wait, the chances of it paying off when they arrive increase, unless they all have career ending injuries.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yeah theres definatly racial aspects in this. But for some there isnt. All i care about is the game, not a rich black guy. My parents taught me the value of an education, so i listed that is a reason people should go to school.
But i would be called a liar if i said i wouldn't take the money if i were a high school prospect.
But i'm not a prospect, im a fan...
So i look at this mostly from the standpoint of whether it will benefit or hurt the league. I think a minor league would help as well.

[ShoogarBear]

I agree almost entirely with Mr. Body's eloquent post except for one point.

"We" don't really give two shits about whether these guys get an education or not.

If "we" did, then we'd so something about the NCAA and the abject hypocrisy of their peanuts-for-the-players-while-Krzyzewski-does-American-Express-commercials
philosophy.

[milkyway21]

KG, J O'Neal, LeBron have made themselves worthy of their early entry into the NBA.

So, why put an age limit? You can start your career in any sports. Even in China who starts recruiting future Olympians as soon as they're able to as in swimming.

The only pro i can think of is protecting the career of those aged NBA players who is still capable of playing, healthy, but with huge contracts but may not be able to play in the league bec their teams opted for rookies who are young & w/ lesser contracts..

[MI21]

Pretty funny that you have yet to come up with an argument of your own in this particular track. You could only latch onto a tongue-in-cheek one-liner by somebody who disagrees with you.

:lol

Maybe the NBA should ban all International players, a lot of them don't turn out very good either.

[MI21]

Lately, High Schoolers have been more hit than miss anyway. Since 2001 these High School players have been picked in the first round -

2001

Kwame Brown - Average player, 11/7 last season, injuries this season.
Tyson Chandler - Pretty sure leads the NBA in rebounding off the bench. Good player.
Eddy Curry - Very good low post scorer, needs to improve defense, but a legit NBA player.
Desagana Diop - Big but sucks

2002

Amare Stoudamire - Enough said.

2003

LeBron James - Enough said.
Travis Outlaw - New breed of long athetlic SF type. Still has time.
Ndui Ebi - See Outlaw, Travis.
Kendrick Perkins - Big guy who can have an impact, not show a lot yet.

(must be noted that other than LeBron the other 3 were taken in the 2nd half of the first round, no matter where you come from it generally takes a while to succeed coming from late in the first round)

2004

Dwight Howard - Good player already, going to be an absolute monster.
Shaun Livingston - Budding star, going to be great soon. Shown a lot late this season.
Robert Swift - I know very little about him, but he hasn't done much this season.
Sebastian Telfair - Drafted far to high, but has show a bit. Going to be good.
Al Jefferson - Very talented bigman, absolute steal for the Celts.
Josh Smith - Fantastic athlete, blocked 10 shots in one game. Good player.
JR Smith - Good scorer and athlete, decent shooter. Good player for a bottom feeder.
Dorrell Wright - I've heard he is fantastic but has had little chance for Miami.

Very few of those players could be called a failure. Most of them have shown a bit coming out of high school, and will only get better. Players coming out of college often don't show anything for a few years either, not just HS players. This was just the last 3 drafts, go back further and you will find Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady coming straight out of High School.

Yeah, early entry from High School is really ruining the NBA :rolleyes

[Gummi]

All the older players want this to happen and all the young kids don't want it to happen. It will give the older player more minutes and will guarentee them more years in the league, I think. And that's good.

Of course there are players that will succeed right away even comming from High School, LeBron, Stoudamire and so on. But there are so many more that won't. Look at guys like Kwame Brown. He has never reached his #1 pick status. Look at Jermaine O'Neal. He sat on the bench for 4 season doing almost nothing.

It will also improve the college game a lot. The college game has suffered in my opinion because guys like Josh Smith, Shaun Livingston, Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, Sebastian Telfair never played there and guys like Kris Humphries only played one season, I think. Playing in college will help every basketball player. There they learn discipline and learn how play as a team. Often in High School these players are just given the ball and everybody else just watches.

I think it will also take back some of the bad publicity that the NBA has gotten. Young guys with alot of money to spent and some of them get into trouble.

So I'm all for the 20 age limit. It will help the NBA and it will help the college game.

[Supergirl]

I think an age limit is overall better for college ball, which is losing good players too early to build team chemistry, and better for the NBA, which is drafting a bunch of knuckleheads who are too immature to be team players.

But I think the players who will lose out are ones like Tony Parker, who are more mature than American players at age 18 by virtue of having played professionally early and a different European educational system.

But, I think future players like TP are worth making wait a couple more years in order to get more mature players in the NBA - not just for the sake of better basketball, but for the sake of the players' character.

[Jimcs50]

You have to look at it from the colleges perspective.

Why should a college put forth the effort ans waste a scholarship spot on a player that is only using the college because he has to? It takes a lot of time and money to recruit and train a college player. And what about that it takes away a scholarship spot from a less talented player, a player that would truly benefit from the scholarship so he can be a true student athlete, and get his degree. These type players far outnumber the ones that go to the NBA, they are the bread and butter for the college game.

Leave the colleges out of this NBA problem.

If the NBA wants to get a farm league going, that would be better for all concerned.

[Useruser666]

I am for the limit. If there is already a limit at 18, then a it's not like there hasn't been a limit before.

If you want to argue college ball will kill players game, then those players who want to play in the NBA should play CBA, NBDL, or euro ball.

If your saying that a player could loose all their money by getting injured, then you have to take into consideration that it is only a two year period of time we talking about. A player could be injured in high school just as easily and not get paid either. If getting injured was such a concern, then 15 year-olds should be eligable for the the draft too. After all they might get injured during those 3 years before they turn 18.

I think an increase in the age limit to 20 would do more good than harm for the NBA.

[jalbre6]

Something like less than one in 35, or 2.9%, of high schoolers playing basketball will go on to play NCAA basketball. Then less than one in 75, or 1.3%, of NCAA basketball players will get drafted by an NBA team. It's somewhere around 3 or 4 per 10,000 high school players that wind up getting drafted.

Since 2000, 23 high school players have been selected in the NBA draft, including eight HS players drafted last year.

We're talking about a very, very select few kids with the athletic gifts to compete professionally. Sure, for every LeBron there's a trainwreck like Leon Smith waiting to happen. But that's the chance teams take. I'm almost surprised we haven't seen some sort of Joe Nuxhall act already. (Nuxhall was a 15 year old pitcher for the Reds during WW2)

I have a feeling that an age limit, if passed, will be enforced until the next phenom is getting ready to graduate from high school. Then either he'll sue for entry or the lottery winning team will petition for his entry.

[Jimcs50]

NBA problem, not a college problem.

[maxpower]

I think that the NBA should raise the age to 20. Many of the players that go directly to the NBA are throwing away a chance at a paid college education with both hands.

There is more to life than money.
I don't agree with the argument that they are throwing away an education ..like their decision to go to the NBA, going to college will also be their decision. The only thing they will be throwing away is their eligibility for NCAA sports. If they go pro and get a contract, they can turn right around and set aside money for an education or even purchase their education at that time for the future.


I think oneal is definitely showing his high school education...that is if he actually attained it and was not ushered through due to his basketball.
This would be the one reason why an age limit should be required. The players are so sheltered and pampered, they have a very egocentric worldview.

Imagine the NBA requiring a degree(anything sport/health related). Most every job where you can make 6 figures or more require at least a B.A. and most likely a Master's or PhD.

[CosmicCowboy]

For the most part I think a 20 year old limit for the "real" NBA coupled with a true farm league type NBDL is a good idea...

I also like the idea of expanding the draft a couple more rounds to allow pro teams to gamble on talent without sacrificing cap space on the "A" team and then put the players in an environment where they can concentrate on real player development...both skill wise and personally...Hopefully they will incorporate "life skills" training into the NBDL as well as just basketball...make it mandatory to go through a "personal development" program...teach them about budgets, talk about the pitfalls of players real lives (predatory "friends" etc.) seriously discuss "life after basketball" etc...

As someone pointed out earlier...the real problem with the 18 year olds coming out is not the super talented ones like LeBron James...it's the borderline talents that try to come out before they are really ready...High school is the only standard they have to judge themselves by and for the most part players that are big/athletic/early maturing can look like superstars judged by that standard even if they aren't true NBA talent yet...but still think they are...they may have raw athletic ability but not the maturity/skills/work ethic...so they hook up with an agent and get passed in a two round draft...squandering any opportunity they might have of playing in college and at least getting an education if pro basketball doesn't work out...the bling bling is just too irresistible...

Even your super gifted could benefit from a program like this...They can play in an environment for a couple of years where the focus of the program is nurturing and expanding skills and not winning games...a true DEVELOPMENT league...in the long run this could only benefit the game...

[picnroll]

There are at least four interested parties and perspectives on this:

1. Under 20 players – for the most part it’s in their best interest to allow drafting at 18.
Pros: Earlier payday, longer potential paying career, some that end up sucking will have still gotten a few million out of the system..
Cons: A few, not many will have benefited form additional maturation, might have made it had they been better prepared physically and/or mentally but wash out instead with the early entrance. Maturity is overrated though. Most knuckleheads are born that way or get a big assist from their parents. After all Rodman, Jayson Williams and Artest all went to college.

2. Established NBA players – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: They’d probably like to have a 25 y.o. age limit. Once your in the show you want to stay in the show and keep drawing those million dollar paychecks. Young blood is just competition to put them into that post-NBA used cars sales job.
Cons: None. Owners should use age as a bargaining chip that they may lower the limit to 16 to wring more concessions from the players’ union.

3. NBA management/owners – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: They stop wasting money on crap shoot players that don’t pan out or get millions while they sit on the bench or IR learning their craft and when they finally are players are up for new contracts. Players come into the game with a better skill set. Players come out of college with greater buzz publcitiy (wise witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony)
Cons: Lose the once every ten year LeBron James for a couple of years of his career, offset by the even more incredible hype they have coming out of college (again witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony).

3. The NBA fan - – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: Depth and quality of teams will improve with players spending an extra couple of years learning their craft before they reach the NBA. We might actually see a player with a mid-range shot again in our lifetime.
Cons: Lose the once every ten year LeBron James for a couple of years of his career (Ducks would disagree), offset by the even more incredible hype they have coming out of college (again witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony).

[CosmicCowboy]

There are at least four interested parties and perspectives on this:

1. Under 20 players – for the most part it’s in their best interest to allow drafting at 18.
Pros: Earlier payday, longer potential paying career, some that end up sucking will have still gotten a few million out of the system..
Cons: A few, not many will have benefited form additional maturation, might have made it had they been better prepared physically and/or mentally but wash out instead with the early entrance. Maturity is overrated though. Most knuckleheads are born that way or get a big assist from their parents. After all Rodman, Jayson Williams and Artest all went to college.

2. Established NBA players – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: They’d probably like to have a 25 y.o. age limit. Once your in the show you want to stay in the show and keep drawing those million dollar paychecks. Young blood is just competition to put them into that post-NBA used cars sales job.
Cons: None. Owners should use age as a bargaining chip that they may lower the limit to 16 to wring more concessions from the players’ union.

3. NBA management/owners – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: They stop wasting money on crap shoot players that don’t pan out or get millions while they sit on the bench or IR learning their craft and when they finally are players are up for new contracts. Players come into the game with a better skill set. Players come out of college with greater buzz publcitiy (wise witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony)
Cons: Lose the once every ten year LeBron James for a couple of years of his career, offset by the even more incredible hype they have coming out of college (again witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony).

3. The NBA fan - – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: Depth and quality of teams will improve with players spending an extra couple of years learning their craft before they reach the NBA. We might actually see a player with a mid-range shot again in our lifetime.
Cons: Lose the once every ten year LeBron James for a couple of years of his career (Ducks would disagree), offset by the even more incredible hype they have coming out of college (again witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony).

great post

this site occasionally has threads that really make me realize just how awesome the quality of posters here really is...

props to Kori and LJ again for making it possible...

[sa_butta]

In leu of a drafting age.

I would propose a minor league team for EVERY team.

So that your able to bring over euro prospects, IR fodder, and High School players.

Not totally for it, but not totally against it.Ive always liked this idea kind of like baseball having farm teams. Gives
them a chance to develop and get prepared for the transition.

[Sec24Row7]

The real problem that no one wants to talk about is the NCAA.

They basically want back their two years of SLAVE labor from the best basketball players.

Sure, they say they are getting an education (woo a full scholorship to the tune of 25k a year TOPS to big basketball schools) so that justifies their making millions of dollars a year off these kids.

It's akin to sharecropping. It's wrong, and I am one of the most conservative posters on the boards. If they want these kids to represent their schools they need to CHANGE THE AMATUER policy. It's a farce. No one believes it AT ALL. No one buys into it.

What really needs to happen is the government needs to break up the NCAA. No more state sanctioned monopoly.

[Guru of Nothing]

3. NBA management/owners – heavily in their interest to have an age limit
Pros: They stop wasting money on crap shoot players that don’t pan out or get millions while they sit on the bench or IR learning their craft and when they finally are players are up for new contracts. Players come into the game with a better skill set. Players come out of college with greater buzz publcitiy (wise witness the vastly overrated and overhyped Carmelo Anthony)


Bingo. The owner's position has nothing to do with improving the quality of the game.

Many are mistakenly focusing on the age 20. Try zeroing in on years 22 and 24 - the age players are (or would be) when they become eligible to sign their first big contract. Collectively, the owners would love to have two more years to evaluate the talents (or lack thereof) of Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler and Kwame Brown. Instead, they will likely get stuck with bad contracts.

[picnroll]

The real problem that no one wants to talk about is the NCAA.

They basically want back their two years of SLAVE labor from the best basketball players.

I expect if there is a very well run NBDL with professional coaches and trainers that establishes a successful track record of preparing players for the NBA it will give the NCAA a run for their money for some of the better players. Net effect potentillay could be that it drains more of the better players away from the college ranks than the current system.

As a corrolary a minor league system will increase the number of professional paying jibs for coaches, trainers, players, refs. Provide a feeder system for all of these. Minor league teams may also increase league popularity as more loocal fans get involved in professional basketball and follow their favorite players into the NBA.

[dougp]

Not exactly, because college stars don't always translate to the NBA. You could be one of the best players in the country (Trajon Langdon, Ed O'Bannon, Chris Carawell, etc, etc) and have no NBA potential. It's a totally different game. The college game is more about zone defense and shooting over those zone. The NBA game is more about individual talent.



I doubt that players like LeBron, Dwight Howard and Amare Stoudemire are doing anything to water down the NBA's talent.



The shooters in today's game are better than any shooters in any era. Look at the stats. Never was it in the NBA that teams could put five three-point threats on the court at the same time. Today, NBA teams often can.



It's just the beginning. The MJ era started the most popular time for the NBA. Kids are just now in the age group that they grew up in the environment that basketball is the most highly-respected sport.



Imagine this:

LeBron goes to North Carolina for two years and the University and the NCAA make hundreds and hundreds of million dollars off of LeBron James averaging a triple double. Everyone has an NC LeBron jersey. The NCAA sells its television rights for double the previous amount.

LeBron blows out his knee. He never had an NBA career and the millions of dollars he would have had are now in other people's hands.

I'd call that a negative effect.
Imagine after 3 years in the NBA, coming out of high school ... he blows out his knee. Sure, he had 3 years at the rookie salary, but that's not much. He doesn't have an education, and you can only survive off endorsements for so long. Where's his fallback?

[Jimcs50]

The real problem that no one wants to talk about is the NCAA.

They basically want back their two years of SLAVE labor from the best basketball players.

Sure, they say they are getting an education (woo a full scholorship to the tune of 25k a year TOPS to big basketball schools) so that justifies their making millions of dollars a year off these kids.

It's akin to sharecropping. It's wrong, and I am one of the most conservative posters on the boards. If they want these kids to represent their schools they need to CHANGE THE AMATUER policy. It's a farce. No one believes it AT ALL. No one buys into it.

What really needs to happen is the government needs to break up the NCAA. No more state sanctioned monopoly.

This is Bullshit.
A college education is worth more to these young players than 25K a year.

99% of college players will never make any money playing pro ball, and if they did not get a scholarship, 99% of college players would nevr be able to go to college and they would end up making about 30k-45/yr tops as a worker w/o a degree.

If you get a degree, you can make 80-300K/yr so that college degree is worth a lot more than 25K.

[bigzak25]

18 is old enough for a man to decide what he wants to do with his life.

if he doesn't have the talent or potential, he won't be drafted.

this is America baby...land of opportunity.

[CosmicCowboy]

Imagine after 3 years in the NBA, coming out of high school ... he blows out his knee. Sure, he had 3 years at the rookie salary, but that's not much. He doesn't have an education, and you can only survive off endorsements for so long. Where's his fallback?

part of the "life skills" part of the NBDL could be explaining how disability insurance works...even without insurance he would/should be 21 years old with several hundred thousand dolars in the bank...I would say thats a pretty decent start on life...I've got blown knees (4 surgerys) and still manage to get by...

[Guru of Nothing]

Imagine after 3 years in the NBA, coming out of high school ... he blows out his knee. Sure, he had 3 years at the rookie salary, but that's not much. He doesn't have an education, and you can only survive off endorsements for so long. Where's his fallback?

After 3 years in the NBA, Lebron will have accumulated more than $10,000,000 in paychecks.

[leemajors]

this rule is just as much about protecting older players as it is younger ones. teams are more willing to sign an 18 year old with "tremendous upside" than a veteran over 30 whose skills are known. it isn't as much about making kids go to college as it is trying to regulate the quality of play in the nba - for every lebron james there are 3 or 4 kwame browns. and, just because you have a college degree there is no guarantee you can get a job, much less one that pays well. go to any restaurant in austin and ask the waitstaff how many of them have degrees - it will surprise you...

[MannyIsGod]

You know, the arguement that that deals with college education fails to address an important issue:

Whats to stop you from getting an education at a University if you have suffered a career ending injury? You know, the vast majority of students are not on scholarship.

The simple fact is that if I know I'm going to be drafted into the NBA, I'm not going to college to risk an injury for any reason. While in the NBA, I can work on my college degree or I can set money aside to attend school after the NBA. When you look at the monetary value of a what the NCAA offers students compared to what the NBA offers, you have to take into account that entering the NBA does not mean you can not enroll at a University. But playing basketball for the NCAA does mean that you have placed your NBA career at risk in order to pursue something you cuold have gotten while in the NBA.

This is about one thing, and one thing only. It's no different from most of the others issues in the CBA, such as the cap, which are simply in place to stop the owners from hurting themselves.

I'm generaly against them. You can't argue that the NBA game is watered down, because if you don't have scrubs from HS on some of those teams, you are simply going to have older scrubs on the rosters. You would also not have players such as Carmelo, Lebron, Amare, Parker, and others who have been making impacts at under the age of 20. It's not as though if the Clippers draft an 18 year old project that a great talent went unnoticed.

If you want to have a minor leauge, thats fine. But what is the point of having an age limit in the NBA? Do you really want to send the future Lebrons to their own meaningless minor leauge for a couple of years?

[Spurminator]

As much as I would like to think there is not some subconscious racism involved in the debate over NBA age limits, there's really no way around it. When you consider that no one seems to have the same problem with Baseball and Hockey, or even non-black foreign basketball players (Darko Milicic rarely seems to come up in these discussions, for some reason), the common denominator is that we're uncomfortable with black kids making basketball a priority over school.

And while there is probably a lengthy discussion to be had about educational priorities in African American culture, an enforced Age Limit amounts to reverse Affirmative Action against kids who don't need to go to college at the age of 18 to earn a living.

Plus, as Manny pointed out, there's no time table for going to college. The implied "straight to college after high school" rule is overrated... and I believe it causes a lot of burnout with kids who, frankly, aren't ready for a higher education. That, also, is a topic ripe for discussion.

But back to the NBA... if the league gets to a point where High School players are adversely affecting the level of play in the league, owners will see the effects on their bottom line, and they will draft accordingly. But I don't think we've seen any higher a percentage of High School NBA failures than 4-years-of-college failures.

[CosmicCowboy]

As much as I would like to think there is not some subconscious racism involved in the debate over NBA age limits, there's really no way around it. When you consider that no one seems to have the same problem with Baseball and Hockey, or even non-black foreign basketball players (Darko Milicic rarely seems to come up in these discussions, for some reason), the common denominator is that we're uncomfortable with black kids making basketball a priority over school.

And while there is probably a lengthy discussion to be had about educational priorities in African American culture, an enforced Age Limit amounts to reverse Affirmative Action against kids who don't need to go to college at the age of 18 to earn a living.

Plus, as Manny pointed out, there's no time table for going to college. The implied "straight to college after high school" rule is overrated... and I believe it causes a lot of burnout with kids who, frankly, aren't ready for a higher education. That, also, is a topic ripe for discussion.

But back to the NBA... if the league gets to a point where High School players are adversely affecting the level of play in the league, owners will see the effects on their bottom line, and they will draft accordingly. But I don't think we've seen any higher a percentage of High School NBA failures than 4-years-of-college failures.


what you are overlooking is that the age limit is being discussed in tandem with a true development league "farm system"...allowing these young players being drafted to get the same money they would receive playing (or sitting on the IL) in the NBA while honing their basketball skills in the NBDL...

[jalbre6]

The real problem that no one wants to talk about is the NCAA.

They basically want back their two years of SLAVE labor from the best basketball players.

Sure, they say they are getting an education (woo a full scholorship to the tune of 25k a year TOPS to big basketball schools) so that justifies their making millions of dollars a year off these kids.

It's akin to sharecropping. It's wrong, and I am one of the most conservative posters on the boards. If they want these kids to represent their schools they need to CHANGE THE AMATUER policy. It's a farce. No one believes it AT ALL. No one buys into it.

What really needs to happen is the government needs to break up the NCAA. No more state sanctioned monopoly.

I completely disagree with this post. Blaming the NCAA on a supposed NBA problem is bullshit. No one is making these kids go to college. They signed the letter of intent, they know what they are getting into. If they don't want to play by the NCAA's rules, then go play elsewhere. That's why there are such tough sanctions for transfers, academic probation, and the rare cases where corruption is actually caught.

Anyone know who Christian Drejer is? Instead of taking the money from the NBA, where he was a projected first rounder, he went to Florida. He got tired of playing for no salary and figured that he'd get better training in Europe, so he dropped out of school and signed with FC Barcelona. New Jersey drafted him in the second round last year.

It's not sharecropping, slave labor, a farce, or a state-sanctioned monopoly. It is what it is, a trade off. Schools don't give out athletic scholarships just because it makes them feel good. They want to compete, win, and achieve recognition.

Dude, it's an unfair world. Sure, the field is tilted toward the schools and not the players. When your options after your prep career are either (1) go to college on an athletic scholarship, or (2) play pick-up ball while holding down an entry level job somewhere, possibly attending a community college, plenty will choose the former.

Openly paying collegiate athletes will corrupt the damn system even worse than it is already. Can you imagine the bidding wars that might have erupted between UT, Southern Cal, and LSU over Ryan Perrilloux? Or over LeBron if Ohio State, North Carolina, and UCLA could have started throwing money around?

[Wildcat Spur]

I want to add a purely personal spin to this debate.

In the 80's and 90's, what I loved most about the NBA was that I got to see my favorite college legends continue their careers. My friends and I would argue about the great college players and then would argue about them again when they went to the NBA.

Watching them in college gave them a story and a legend that they carried into the NBA with them.

Think about David Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, MJ, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Ralph Sampson, Drexler, Shaq, Tim Duncan, etc.. I could go on and on. They all made their legend in college and were even more fun to watch in the pros because I felt like I already knew them. The reason I am a Spurs fan today is because I became a fan of David Robinson in college and have followed him ever since.

With todays "straight to the NBA" group of players, I miss being able to attach a story line to them that makes them even more fun in the NBA.

Purely a personal observation about my love of the game that doesn't really deal with any of the true issues.

[Spurminator]

what you are overlooking is that the age limit is being discussed in tandem with a true development league "farm system"...allowing these young players being drafted to get the same money they would receive playing (or sitting on the IL) in the NBA while honing their basketball skills in the NBDL...

I wouldn't agree with this either because it takes away potential endorsement deals from players who, like Lebron James, don't need skills honed in the NBDL. I'm fine with a Minor League system, but there shouldn't be restrictions on how long you have to play there before making the move to the NBA.

I think you allow the Owners to make whatever moves they feel will benefit their team. If they're willing to waste a roster spot on a Kwame Brown in the hopes that eventually he'll be an NBA player, that's their grave to dig. If it becomes enough of a problem, and teams are finding themselves at the bottom of the standings ten straight years after drafting unproven players, the system will correct itself.

[Kori Ellis]

what you are overlooking is that the age limit is being discussed in tandem with a true development league "farm system"...allowing these young players being drafted to get the same money they would receive playing (or sitting on the IL) in the NBA while honing their basketball skills in the NBDL...

What Stern is proposing is not about being able draft under 20 and put them in the NBDL (and definitely not still paying them NBA level salary). He's proposing a 20 year age limit period this summer. And he's proposing developing a farm system (NBDL) over the next few years, but I've never heard him say that you would be able to draft under 20 even if the farm system were in place.

What you and many others are saying is what I think would be ideal. I'm just clarifying that is not what is being proposed.

[conversekid]

Don't make it an age limit. Make it a requirement to have a Bachelors degree.

If my job can require I have a Bachelors... why can't the NBA? College degrees are requirements for jobs all the time.. even when they don't relate specfically to the job - they just want someone with a college degree.

To make this a "racism" issue is retarded... What a clown.

[MannyIsGod]

They are never going to make it a requirement to have a degree! There are so many players that are never going to put that effort into it, and I don't see what a degree brings to a basketball court.

[ducks]

I do not think making basketball players have bachelors degree is smart
that would just encourage more cheating to pass the test

bringing up race is stupid though

[Spurminator]

If my job can require I have a Bachelors... why can't the NBA?

Nobody's saying they can't, just that it would be stupid. There's no reason to require a degree in the NBA.

[CosmicCowboy]

What Stern is proposing is not about being able draft under 20 and put them in the NBDL (and definitely not still paying them NBA level salary). He's proposing a 20 year age limit period this summer. And he's proposing developing a farm system (NBDL) over the next few years, but I've never heard him say that you would be able to draft under 20 even if the farm system were in place.

What you and many others are saying is what I think would be ideal. I'm just clarifying that is not what is being proposed.

Kori, you are correct that this is the current NBA position but I have read some articles that imply that this is only the starting point for negotiations and the end result after the negotiation process is expected to be closer to the scenario I projected.

I personally think that would be a good thing for the NBA...

[Spurminator]

Bringing up race is not stupid, it's completely relevant to this topic.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think what O'neal meant is right. I don't think there is a concious racist effort underway to hurt black players.

As Spurm said, however, I do feel there may be a subliminal level of racism at work here. That happens in many areas of life that people don't even realize, and most of us are guilty of having those predjudices.

[ducks]

They are never going to make it a requirement to have a degree! There are so many players that are never going to put that effort into it, and I don't see what a degree brings to a basketball court.

a degree brings nothing to work either
you are either qualified to do the job or not. a degree just means you did not quit college and finished.

[Kori Ellis]

CC, you are right that some articles are talking about it. That's because Billy Hunter apparently is pushing for it that way (under 20 to NBDL making NBA salaries). But Stern has said repeatedly that's not his proposal. He is pretty firm about implementing the age limit in this summer's CBA and there's not a farm system in place.

I would actually be for it the way that Hunter is proposing it. I've been talking about it that way on the Round Table videos for two seasons. I just don't think that's what is going to happen.

[MannyIsGod]

A degree means a bit more than that Ducks, but I've worked with plenty of people who had me wondering what the hell they did to graduate.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think a Mavericks/Spurs farm club in Austin would rock! I can imagine the road trip GTG pictures to check out the up and coming talent...:lol

Houston/New Orleans could put their's in Beaumont...:lmao

[adidas11]

This is one of my favorite topics about sports, because it hits on so many different lines of discussion, and political and racial lines as well.

Quote: " But I don't think we've seen any higher a percentage of High School NBA failures than 4-years-of-college failures."

Bingo. I hate it when people use the argument of how the poor high school kids that didn't *make it* in the pros, and how going to college would have benefited them so much. So what? Some players make it, and some don't. It has always been that way, and it doesn't matter if that player jumped straight from high school, or gets drafted after 4 years in college.

If you're going to start putting age restrictions, then I believe that you have to do the same for other sports as well. Heck, they let kids who haven't even finished high school play professionally in soccer (Freddy Adu, MLS), golf (Michelle Wie). And what about all of the kids who get drafted out of high school for baseball??? No one seems to blink an eye about them!

I laugh at the NBA being so concerned about the quality of their play, which I believe is really due to expansion, rather than letting high school kids jump to the league. Think about it, before teams started expanding again in 1989, we were without the Orlando Magic, Miami Heat, New Orleans Hornets, Bobcats, Canadian teams. What that means is that the number of *quality* players coming into the league each year hasn't increased with the additional number of teams added over the last 15 years. What you get then, are essentially X amount of players in the NBA, who would not be good enough to play in the league pre-expansion. That leads to watered down teams.

Setting a 20 year age limit will not help with the *quality* of the NBA product. If anything, players will start going overseas in the future, as foreign teams improve in their quality, become more popular, and pay more money! Think about it!

If the NBA is really concerned about the quality of play, then they should institute a TRUE minor league system, similar to what we have in baseball. But they will never do this, because they essentially have a FREE minor league system in college basketball, that accomplishes this task.

And speaking of college basketball, I for one could care less about what happens to college basketball. It will always be there, and the whole idea of college basketball is for inter-collegiate sport, based on education, right!?! And I definitely DON'T favor the idea of paying college athletes. If you do that for the basketball and football players (most who play for schools that don't make big time money, such as I-AA, Division II, and Division III), then you have to pay athletes in other sports like swimming, soccer, hockey, tennis, etc. And trust me, most of those sports don't generate money for their schools to substantiate being paid by the school in excess of the scholarship money they receive.

[jalbre6]

The more I think about this, the more idiotic I think Jermaine's statement is. It's the NBA's court; they make the rules. He didn't do shit in Portland from ages 18-21 except score 3.5 points a game and collect a fat check for being drafted 17th.

[Sec24Row7]

What the hell does a college degree have to do with playing basketball?

LOL and whoever said that a college degree means getting a job of 80-300k a year needs to have a fucking reality check.

Undergrad degrees are a freaking dime a dozen.

If you don't go to graduate school, you are SOL as far as earning that kind of money without major time put in to your career if you are soley banking on a degree to get you in the door.

It just doesn't make ANY financial sense for a kid that is going to be playing in the NBA to go to college.

NONE!

I don't care what you people say, the ONLY purpose of going to college is to make money and have higher quality of life.

Being a pro basketball player in the NBA will broaden a kid's horizons more than any college could.

If he has an interest in school he can persue it later or hell even during.

College is not required to be an upstanding member of society.

95% of it is bullshit anyway and doesn't help you on the job, WHATEVER your field of work may be later on.

[CosmicCowboy]

Bruce Bowen was finishing his degree in 2003 during the championship run. Remember the story about him having to ask his teacher to let him miss a class for a playoff game? She didn't believe he played for the Spurs...:lol

[Sec24Row7]

Exactly.

If a phenom kid wants to go to college he still can.

Doesnt mean he has to play for some Scrub JV team like Duke or NC and get paid 1/50th of what he is worth in scholorship form.

Why on Earth would Lebron James need college?

If a team is willing to pay him he is STUPID not to go to the league.

[spurster]

Myth: Elite NCAA basketball players are getting a college education. Ok, maybe some are.



http://www.pnnonline.org/article.php?sid=5835&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

One of the central recommendations of A Call to Action, the Knight Foundation Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics’ 2001 report, was that eligibility for postseason participation should be reserved by 2007 for basketball teams that graduate 50 percent of their players. If that recommendation were in effect now, nearly two-thirds (42 of 65) of the men’s tournament field would have been ineligible to participate, according to the NCAA’s latest graduation rate report.

Myth: High-schoolers going pro are hurting the college game.

The NCAA tournament was just terrible this year.

Myth: The NBA needs minor leagues.

If they are not in college, why can't they play in Europe? By many accounts, players in Europe are learning the skills that are supposedly missing from today's game. Also, for PR reasons, I think it would be better to have the second-tier players out of the US to maintain/increase popularity in basketball worldwide.

Myth: The owners are losing money on bad high-school draft picks.

The salary scale for draft picks in the current CBA has saved them bigtime. Also, I don't think the HS picks are doing worse than the college or international ones.

[ducks]

If you're going to start putting age restrictions, then I believe that you have to do the same for other sports as well. Heck, they let kids who haven't even finished high school play professionally in soccer (Freddy Adu, MLS), golf (Michelle Wie). And what about all of the kids who get drafted out of high school for baseball??? No one seems to blink an eye about them!



why?
the nba does not need to answer the other sports
do they belong to each other
does it mean when baseball goes on strike all sports stop

maybe the nba made the mistake of expansion but they think they can correct the problem with a farm system
what is wrong with that?




Setting a 20 year age limit will not help with the *quality* of the NBA product. If anything, players will start going overseas in the future, as foreign teams improve in their quality, become more popular, and pay more money!

you do realize that players that play overseas do not get in trouble with the law right

I think if they go over seas they will be mature.

[ducks]

Exactly.


Why on Earth would Lebron James need college?



1 highschool player out of 10000000000000000000

[sickdsm]

Watching them in college gave them a story and a legend that they carried into the NBA with them.

Think about David Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing, MJ, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Isiah, Ralph Sampson, Drexler, Shaq, Tim Duncan, etc.. I could go on and on. They all made their legend in college and were even more fun to watch in the pros because I felt like I already knew them. The reason I am a Spurs fan today is because I became a fan of David Robinson in college and have followed him ever since.

.


Everybody knows that Shaq made his money in college.

But seriously. Maybe restructuring the way contracts are handled is the key here? The money that guys like Ebi and Darko are making isn't the problem. The problem is they are guaranteed AND there more likely to hit it big after their 3 years is up and leave. Maybe a hard salary cap would help. You wouldn't be inclined to hold onto all these guys based on potential if your making a run when you can sign a vet who can help you NOW. I dont really have a problem with the guys that don't make it in this league, i don't like the idea that guys have to develop. I know the reason why JON left is bc of the Dale Davis trade. But how many people think that Darko if he pans out will be with the pistons in two years? He may very well be a HOF center for the Spurs. Players like Tmac don't reward their teams that drafted them out of HS by signing with them.

Somehow making it much easier for teams to RESIGN there rookies would help a great amount.

I think 20 is too high. I thought about 19 but then i realized that alot of players are older than the average graduate for various reasons.

Maybe the requirement should be one year after HS AND a diploma/GED etc... Otherwise i think you'd have problems with kids quitting HS and playing down at the park, then they'd be elgible to sign the day they turn 18.

And please people, don't you realize how idiotic it is to compare the NBA to Baseball? I don't see guys rotting on a big league roster.

The latest i've heard is that Stern wants to expand. He can't really expand much more than the 30 teams and the WNBA isn't doing squat. He wants the NBDL as a moneymaker. I would NEVER go to a NBDL game if two teams hold the rights to each minor league team. I would however drive an hour or two OR even have season tickets if its within an hour to see my wolves NBDL team play. ESPECIALLY if they made it so you could be drafted at 18 but not play in the NBA till your 19. Wouldn't it be great seeing the stars in the making going at it head to head?

[jalbre6]

why?
the nba does not need to answer the other sports
do they belong to each other
does it mean when baseball goes on strike all sports stop

maybe the nba made the mistake of expansion but they think they can correct the problem with a farm system
what is wrong with that?

Why doesn't the NBA just buy the CBA and merge it with the NBDL? Or is that exactly what Isiah wanted to do with it before it filed Chapter 7?

[Sec24Row7]

"Dude, it's an unfair world. Sure, the field is tilted toward the schools and not the players. When your options after your prep career are either (1) go to college on an athletic scholarship, or (2) play pick-up ball while holding down an entry level job somewhere, possibly attending a community college, plenty will choose the former.

Openly paying collegiate athletes will corrupt the damn system even worse than it is already. Can you imagine the bidding wars that might have erupted between UT, Southern Cal, and LSU over Ryan Perrilloux? Or over LeBron if Ohio State, North Carolina, and UCLA could have started throwing money around?"


So what?

The rights of the kids are more important than the enjoyment of the fan faithful of college teams. Who cares if schools start throwing money around at kids? Why have THAT be illegal. The SCHOOLS are in it to make money. Let them make it, but don't force the kids to work for free like they have been doing for 100 years.

It's just stupid. Why is paying college athletes wrong? That is the fundamental question. This is what people are so brainwashed about. WHY IS IT WRONG? The answer is, IT ISN'T! If the schools are making millions off of them they should be ENTITLED TO SOME PERCENTAGE MORE THAN A SCHOLORSHIP THAT THEY ARENT ENCOURAGED TO TAKE THROUGH TO GRADUATION ANYWAY.

They are Slaves at worst and Indentured Servants at best.

That's just the way it is. You can love the college game the way it is and defend it all you want, but you aren't going to change the fact that colleges and the NCAA are making millions off of these kids, and their only compensation is a college education. Shit, the stock show gives out college educations to kids who can raise the biggest chicken, there is a hell of a lot of money to be made in that for them...

[Spurminator]

And please people, don't you realize how idiotic it is to compare the NBA to Baseball? I don't see guys rotting on a big league roster.

Well, baseball has a Farm System. But there are no rules about when a player can be brought up to the Majors. Ken Griffey, Jr was 19 when he played his first game, and Andruw Jones may have been 18.

[picnroll]

Not entirely familiar with baseball or hockey draft salaries but I believe they don't have a fixed scale and highly doubt they get near as sweet a deal on average as NBA draft picks, i.e., far less risk to the owners. Soccer, in the US the best play for relative peanuts and are happy for that. Golf and tennis no comparison, the player assumes all the financial risk whatever age they begin at.

[sickdsm]

Exactly. It isn't an epidemic. From what i remember wasn't Griffey ready to contribute when he came up?

[Extra Stout]

I don't care what happens to college basketball. Our American system of turning intercollegiate student-athletics into an enormous industry that eclipses the primary missions of the schools involved is perverse anyway. Colleges shouldn't be serving as functional minor leagues for the pros.

As I see it, the primary problem the teams have with high school players is scouting. It is very difficult for them to gauge what sort of player a high school kid can become when all they have demonstrated is raw athleticism and the limited fundamentals a high school coach is teaching them. Frequently, that coach is abandoning his role as teacher anyway, looking instead to jump on the gravy train. So, the volatility involved in draft decisions has gone up exponentially. I think that's what bothers teams.

Plus, since these high schoolers frequently aren't ready to play for several years, they occupy a scarce roster spot with little chance of contributing, and lose the development that would come with getting playing time somewhere.

With international players who are 18, like Tony Parker was, typically they already have experience playing professionals who are much older, and even have played on their countries' national teams. There is a lot more to go on when evaluating a player's talent and potential. Teams like the Spurs who were ahead of the curve on international scouting could pluck the plums with relatively low draft picks. Now that other teams have caught on (except for the usual drafting idiots), the world has become a vast pool of talent from which teams can draw. The volatility just isn't as high.

Now what about Stern and his insistence on an age limit of 20? That doesn't seem to make sense given the reasons I've given. A minor league like the NBDL should work like it does for baseball. As for the difficulty in scouting, well it seems to me that teams are getting experienced at it and making better decisions.

But if I'm Stern, here's what concerns me: international players can have agents hyping them up long before they turn 18. International players can play on European pro teams and their own national teams before they turn 18. As the game expands and more athletically gifted people under 18 outside the US turn to basketball, they're going to have a big advantage over young Americans because they'll be more visible and more easily scouted because they're playing against real competition and not just average high schoolers and AAU fodder. They have a headstart.

The age limit of 20 would counteract that somewhat.

In that sense, Jermaine is biting the hand that feeds him.

[tsb2000]

Points to ponder... :)

I've always felt the college athletes should be paid. Not by the universities, but by the NBA. If a NBA team wants to draft a high school kid, he will get paid, but he's got to go to college. That way a kid at Duke, UNC, wherever- would have his professional rights owned by the NBA team that drafted him, and if called up, would play for that team. Seems like the best way to thread that needle, but there are still problems.

1. this would create a set of elite basketball schools- worse than now. If you thought Duke and UConn, et, al. were always on tv now, wait until they're loaded with "pre-NBA" players. Other schools would suffer a lot if they're not "elite" teams like Duke since they wouldn't attract the best players.

2. Many HS kids CAN'T get into college. Know why KG went straight to the NBA? He couldn't pass the SAT, even after taking it twice. Academically, he's as dumb as a box of rocks. There are exceptions (like Kobe, who is academically very smart), but that's generally not the case. Is this racism? I got a 1480 on my SAT way back when, but I will never make what KG is pulling in, and I've got an MBA...

One thing many people don't know is that "blue chip" college players are indeed paid. The way around the rule is the university (or boosters, whomever) will pay for a cash value insurance policy for the player. The player can draw from that policy, and when he gets his NBA $, he pays off the policy. In essence, it's a loan against his first NBA check. If the player gets hurt, the insurance policy pays off (in the millions) and he's still set for life- at least compared to us average working shmos. :spin

[jalbre6]

So what?

The rights of the kids are more important than the enjoyment of the fan faithful of college teams. Who cares if schools start throwing money around at kids? Why have THAT be illegal. The SCHOOLS are in it to make money. Let them make it, but don't force the kids to work for free like they have been doing for 100 years.

It's just stupid. Why is paying college athletes wrong? That is the fundamental question. This is what people are so brainwashed about. WHY IS IT WRONG? The answer is, IT ISN'T! If the schools are making millions off of them they should be ENTITLED TO SOME PERCENTAGE MORE THAN A SCHOLORSHIP THAT THEY ARENT ENCOURAGED TO TAKE THROUGH TO GRADUATION ANYWAY.

They are Slaves at worst and Indentured Servants at best.

That's just the way it is. You can love the college game the way it is and defend it all you want, but you aren't going to change the fact that colleges and the NCAA are making millions off of these kids, and their only compensation is a college education. Shit, the stock show gives out college educations to kids who can raise the biggest chicken, there is a hell of a lot of money to be made in that for them...

I doubt you'll understand this, since you believe Duke and UNC are "scrub JV teams". But I'll try anyway.

Collegiate athletes are compensated for their skills. They're given a free ride to whatever school they are playing for. If they don't like it, they can quit. If the coach or the AD isn't satisfied with their performance, they can take the guy's scholarship. If they believe that they have outgrown whatever program they play for, they can declare for the draft. And if they don't want to go to college, they can attempt to become one of the less than .001 percent that get drafted by a professional organization.

It's not fair. It's not supposed to be. But when you're 18 years old with minimal workforce experience, those are your options. Remember as well that most upper-echelon athletes that are even under consideration for a scholarship probably have never held a job, since they spend most of their free time practicing and honing their game.

I'm not worried about the rights of the kids, either. They're getting an education in return for their athletic skills. That's a pretty good deal for an 18-22 year old with minimal work experience. And if they are that good at whatever sport they're playing, they can leave early and go make theor fortune.

If you think the NCAA has these kids by the balls, that's your opinion. But most of these kids playing D-1 sports got recruited and recieved counseling on what they were about to do.

And as far as the school and the NCAA making money off of those players, that is their right. Nobody is in business to lose money. Once again, if the kid is THAT pissed that his school is making money off of him, he can quit. There are plenty of other athletes willing to take that scholarship.

Openly paying athletes will be the decline and eventual fall of collegiate athletics, if it ever happens. The chaos will be unimaginable. The scandals will be both astronomical and destructive. Reason being, if you're legitimizing payment to athletes, what goes on under the table will escalate to a scale that I can't even imagine. Quickly. Then all the problems that these young guys have dealing with pro money will hit campuses, and since there's tens of thousands of athletes on the take, young, dumb, and full of cum, tensions will mount.

Then these guys collecting a check, drinking, doping and fucking themselves stupid, will stop attending classes, if they ever went in the first place. The next stage in your scenario is then to make the athletes non-students, just paid members of an athletic organization that wear the school's colors. Really, no different than a pro team, just with younger players. And once that hits, why control individual salaries? Pay what you can afford!!!

Next up, someone gets pissed that USC (just an example) has a $40 million payroll and decides that they want a cap. So a cap is put into place; meanwhile schools are dropping athletics left and right, just because of the rising costs now fully associated with running a program.

Also too, not to nitpick, but that stock show awarding a scholarship to the kid raising the biggest chicken is making an investment in their industry's future. If a kid learned to raise a show animal on their own, they might have a gift that proper training might turn into a rewarding career for the kid and new ideas and whatnot for the agribusiness.

[CosmicCowboy]

Also too, not to nitpick, but that stock show awarding a scholarship to the kid raising the biggest chicken is making an investment in their industry's future. If a kid learned to raise a show animal on their own, they might have a gift that proper training might turn into a rewarding career for the kid and new ideas and whatnot for the agribusiness.

raising chickens is awesome...what other area is there where a testosterone loaded high school kid is encouraged to focus on big breasts?

[leemajors]

adidas11, michelle wie is an amateur playing in professional tournaments, mostly on exemptions. most anyone can play in a pga tournament, provided they make it past the qualifying rounds on monday and tuesday. there are very strict rules on professional/amateur status in the golf world, esp on the pga tour. she can win a tournament and not make any money doing so. the minute she accepts any sort of physical gift from a sponsor or prize money, she loses her amateur status and cannot play in the us amateur or for her high school. i beleive she could be expelled from school for doing so as well - at least it is that way in texas.

[adidas11]

Ahhh...but she has the choice of whether or not to accept that money to begin with! And at that point, she can still play professionally! What the NBA is proposing is to take away that choice, from young men who are considerably older than Michelle Wie is!

Like I said before, no one bitched about kids turning pro, when it was Jennifer Capriati, Alex Rodriguez, or Venus Williams. Last time that I checked, none of those athletes ever went to college (actually, Alex Rodriguez attended the University of Miami for one day, as a bargaining ploy against the Seattle Mariners).

[jalbre6]

Ahhh...but she has the choice of whether or not to accept that money to begin with! And at that point, she can still play professionally! What the NBA is proposing is to take away that choice, from young men who are considerably older than Michelle Wie is!

Like I said before, no one bitched about kids turning pro, when it was Jennifer Capriati, Alex Rodriguez, or Venus Williams. Last time that I checked, none of those athletes ever went to college (actually, Alex Rodriguez attended the University of Miami for one day, as a bargaining ploy against the Seattle Mariners).

After all the money Wie's parents have dished out keeping that "amateur" status (flying to the mainland from Hawaii, no less!), she'll be a pro as soon as she wins a tourney, I'll bet.

edit: I forgot about A-Rod and his U of M experience! He actually donated close to $4 million to the school to renovate the baseball stadium last year.

[Sec24Row7]

Ok then forget the stock show example...

What about need based scholorships people get for just being poor?

That's right, we compensate athletes with money they would be eligable for even if they didnt play basketball just because they are poor enough.

Don't give me that shit.

College players deserve payment. Scholarships are not payment. They are means for the kid to attend the school so he can play there and make the school millions of dollars. Without it the kid wouldn't be enrolled and COULDNT PLAY THERE... read that... that is the emphasis... not "attend class."

A fully paid for education is the kid's reward? Who cares about an education for NBA caliber players.

That's like telling some 30 year old rancher in west Texas with maybe a high school education that he is going to have to attend college before they drill the 4 million barrel oil field under his property. He's sitting on a gold mine. Why the fuck does he need an education?

[adidas11]

I wonder if schools like Tulane and Florida A&M could afford to pay their football players? LOL

[ducks]

so if people bitch youngsters turning pro in other sports it would be ok to raise the age limit adidas11

[jalbre6]

Ok then forget the stock show example...

What about need based scholorships people get for just being poor?

That's right, we compensate athletes with money they would be eligable for even if they didnt play basketball just because they are poor enough.

Don't give me that shit.

College players deserve payment. Scholarships are not payment. They are means for the kid to attend the school so he can play there and make the school millions of dollars. Without it the kid wouldn't be enrolled and COULDNT PLAY THERE... read that... that is the emphasis... not "attend class."

A fully paid for education is the kid's reward? Who cares about an education for NBA caliber players.

That's like telling some 30 year old rancher in west Texas with maybe a high school education that he is going to have to attend college before they drill the 4 million barrel oil field under his property. He's sitting on a gold mine. Why the fuck does he need an education?

Before I start here, let's get one thing straight. I am in complete agreement that a kid should take the damn money if he's a high draft pick lock (LeBron, KG, etc).

Not every guy who laces his shoes up on a college court has NBA level talent. Then if you decide just to pay NBA caliber players in college, pretty soon everyone's got their hands in the bucket. Over 500 colleges in the US have basketball programs, and with 15 guys on a team, that's 7500 players. Sixty guys get drafted each year. Get it?

So either you pay everyone and fuck up the system worse than it is already, or you do what happens now. If a player thinks he's ready, then he leaves. Or doesn't enroll in any school and hopes he gets drafted. And if he's one of the many that aren't going to be able to play basketball for a living, this university that "exploited" him gave him the opportunity to get a degree, which may help him in the long run.

[jalbre6]

I wonder if schools like Tulane and Florida A&M could afford to pay their football players? LOL

I know you're kidding adidas, but Tulane is one of the wealthiest schools in the nation.

[leemajors]

she could turn pro if she wished, but so far she has come nowhere close to winning a professional tournament. i think phil mickelson was the last amateur to win a pro tourney, and before that it had been a while since someone had.

[jalbre6]

This, my friends, is Gerald Green from Houston.
http://vmedia.rivals.com/IMAGES/PROSPECT/PHOTO/GERALDGREEN7_191150.JPG

He's a projected lottery pick that has signed a letter of intent with Oklahoma State. Last season at Gulf Shores Academy, Green averaged 28 points, 13 rebounds and six blocks. His team went 39-2.

college or pro?

[Sec24Row7]

He needs better bling earings.

I say pro.

I agree with you that not every D1 kid has NBA talent, but the system is broken.

They need to be paid SOMETHING, maybe something on the order of how hard they are recruited.

I don't have the answer, but this topic is about the NBA age limit... which ONLY deals with the kids you are talking about and agreeing with me on.

They need to go to the league, and if that option isn't open then college needs to pay them.

[adidas11]

Yes, Jalbre6, but Florida A&M isn't one of the wealthiest schools in the country.

And how much do either schools generate in terms of money from their football programs? What many are suggesting is that because college make so much money off of the basketball and football players, they should then pay those players.

What I'm trying to say is that MOST collegiate basketball and football players play for schools where the programs DON'T make lots of money, and hence can not pay the players.

If you pay college athletes, you have to pay all of them. Equally. And that includes ALL collegiate sports.

[picnroll]

I worked as a graduate student as a research assistant at a university where a patent was granted on the research. The patent subsequently drew considerable revenue from licensing to a drug company. I got nada of course. Should I have received a windfall adidas?

[jalbre6]

Yes, Jalbre6, but Florida A&M isn't one of the wealthiest schools in the country.

And how much do either schools generate in terms of money from their football programs? What many are suggesting is that because college make so much money off of the basketball and football players, they should then pay those players.

What I'm trying to say is that MOST collegiate basketball and football players play for schools where the programs DON'T make lots of money, and hence can not pay the players.

If you pay college athletes, you have to pay all of them. Equally. And that includes ALL collegiate sports.

Since Tulane has to pay rent to the Louisiana Superdome, and I know absolutely nothing about Florida A&M football, I'd guess neither program makes that much for their respective schools. Hell, I bet that the coach at Florida A&M makes less than what some people here think we should pay players.

And paying collegiate athletes is an all-around bad idea, as I have proclaimed from my soapbox all afternoon. :lol

[adidas11]

I worked as a graduate student as a research assistant at a university where a patent was granted on the research. The patent subsequently drew considerable revenue from licensing to a drug company. I got nada of course. Should I have received a windfall adidas?

Nope, you shouldn't receive any money from it Picnroll. Which is exactly my point. Collegiate athletes shouldn't be paid, including basketball and football players.

[picnroll]

Fine because for those feeling sorry for athletes if you want to pay athletes because they generate revenue for the university you're going to have to pay a lot of graduate students some pretty big buck, because they work on projects in a meaningful way that can generate a whole lot of money for universities.

[rr2418]

Seems like everything with Jermaine leads to some sort of racism or discrimination. But anyway, in his case when he was drafted in 96 or 97 he WAS NOT ready to come in and produce in the NBA, shit he didn't even become a good player until 2000. I truly believe if he would of gone to college he would of developed and have been ready to come out and kick some ass in the NBA. Instead he comes in as a highschooler and sucks ass for about 3 or 4 years. But whatever, I think the NBA should have some sort of age limit, but I also believe if there is a "LEBRON JAMES" out there, then they should try him out during the summer leagues to see if he is "ALL THAT". If he does kick ass then hey welcome to the NBA, but if he doesn't then to college with your ass! Just my 2cents!


Whether you're a "Lebron James" type player or not, it shouldn't matter, this age limit should be equal to all.

But.......to answer the question about the age limit, I'm for it! Why? B/c by having highschoolers come out, they are destroying the game. All they want to do is dunk and make the ESPN highlight clip. I've read where alot of them don't want to listen to the coach, don't want to play team ball, b/c they were the main "man" at their highschool. What really surprises me about James,is not really his play, but his maturity. Not all HS players will have a level head on their shoulders. Millions of dollars suddenly given to you! How the heck do you handle that as a HS player? Besides, doesn't every company have the right to set whatever bounderies they wish? It's funny though, here at the real world people have to be 21 to drink, but an NBA player that's 19 or 20, do they give them special treatment? HELL YES!! Just doesn't make sense! Actually I think they should be required to take an exam, sort of like an SAT test, to make sure they can "read and write". after their second year in college, If they pass, then they will be cleared to get drafted. But, overall I think the age limit would be good for the league in the long run. Battier ws on the Rome show on ESPN a while ago, and he agreed with the age limit. His reason ( and a good one ) was that to many vets are being bumped to the bench b/c unproven HS players are coming in with high expectations and they're not ready for the NBA game. This would at least help keep veterans jobs safe.

[Guru of Nothing]

Actually I think they should be required to take an exam, sort of like an SAT test, to make sure they can "read and write". after their second year in college, If they pass, then they will be cleared to get drafted.

WTF?

A player's reading comprehension does not enter into the equation when I decide to purchase tickets to a game (same for watching a game on TV).

Bury the envy.

[Spurminator]

I think basketball fans should have to run some basketball drills to test their shooting ability and defensive skill before being allowed to comment on requirements for professional players.

:rolleyes

[PRPro15]

Someone may already have mentioned this, but comparing the rules and regulations governing a professional sports team and someone being of age to enlist in the Armed Services is apples and oranges. It's personal choice to enlist. The NBA is a private business that can, I assume, determine its own policies and procedures. If they choose not to draft someone, they don't have to. Is that correct?

[Spurminator]

I don't think anyone is arguing the legality of the NBA having an age limit, just the logic.

[IcemanCometh]

People are mad these ballas are ruining "their" sport with their "lack of fundamentals" and their wanton "self expression". They are sick of these 18-19 year old black ball players with their "bling bling," pimped out Escalades, and their MTV Cribs houses that have video games in the restroom. How dare they act the uppity negro on them, its time to put them in their place.

[SpurYank]

It's unfortunate that O'Neal brought up race. I Totally disagree with him on that.

I do agree that as long as baseball, boxing, and on and on, do not have age limits, then neither should the NBA. It's a bit hypocritical.

[sickdsm]

2. Many HS kids CAN'T get into college. Know why KG went straight to the NBA? He couldn't pass the SAT, even after taking it twice. Academically, he's as dumb as a box of rocks.

Your right on the point thats the only reason he entered the draft but he actually did pass the SAT. Only he didn't get the results back fast enough the last time he took it.


Who cares about the kids? I don't. I'm not a NCAA or a kid fan. I care about the NBA. 9 times out of 10 a kid would and should take the money. For the NBA, its players, and fans this is bad.

I find it funny that alot of other sports on their contract talks the players end up giving in on rookie contracts and terms in order to get what they want. The Vets (on the the players association boards) take care of the vets.

[ShoogarBear]

Lots of good points in here on both sides.

I agree with sick and others that what's best for the player is always the ability to make his own decision. Why should NBA players be any different in this regard than anyone else in the US?

As far as what's best for the league, it probably is an age limit.

This would certainly help college ball, too, but the NCAA is such a ghastly hypocritical organization that I can't believe that anyone gives a shit about what's best for it.

[bonesinaz]

Why isn't the same true for baseball and hockey?

I think that it should be the same for all pro sports-but the question was what Stern should do and I answered appropriately.

[Kori Ellis]

This subject is a good Battle Blog. I know someone has brought up the topic in the Battle Blog Authors forum, but it hasn't gotten done yet. I'd appreciate it if it does.

Thanks.

[timvp]

Lots of good points in here on both sides.

I agree with sick and others that what's best for the player is always the ability to make his own decision. Why should NBA players be any different in this regard than anyone else in the US?

As far as what's best for the league, it probably is an age limit.

This would certainly help college ball, too, but the NCAA is such a ghastly hypocritical organization that I can't believe that anyone gives a shit about what's best for it.

:tu

Although I'm not convinced that the NBA would be better off. Not having a LeBron James in the league because he's too young is pretty stupid. It'd no longer be the best league in the world because there'd be players not in the league who could dominate.

I don't even see why this is an issue. This rule makes sense for the NFL because kids would get killed trying to play that game. But kids get drafted out of high school in baseball and nobody cares. Tennis players turn pro at like 15. Hockey players get drafted young.

I don't totally agree with Jermaine O'Neal but there is something weird about the American perception in this matter. When young high school kids like Daruis Miles, Kwame Brown or Tyson Chandler come out and don't star right away, we have to hear how they "lack fundamentals".

What better way to learn how to be an NBA player than to learn on the job? The NCAA is hardly an entity that should be felt sorry for. The athletes put their lives on the line every game, but God forbid someone pays the kid's phone bill or else he'll be out on the street. Sanctioned slavery? Not quite but when it's a billion dollar industry yet the athletes get none of that money, it's close.

[T Park]

it's a billion dollar industry yet the athletes get none of that money, it's close.

they go to college right?

Arent they supposed to be getting an education??


Thats what I thought was number 1 for people when went to college, I could be wrong.

Id give up on the age limite, and just institute a minor league system, where each team has a minor league team.

Play during the basketball season, and unlimited call ups, send downs, the whole 9 yards.

Spurs would obviously make Austin there NBDL affiliate.

[timvp]

It's not like colleges care if their athletes get an education. They just want them to do good in their sport and keep them eligible.

Look at the graduation rates.

[T Park]

So its the college's fault they dont get graduated??

What should they do, do the work for them???


They get a free, full ride scholarship.

Shit theres kids at my school who were smarter than hell, could do great things in this world, but couldnt get squat, because they were dirt poor.

But, since KID A, can dunk a basketball, he gets a full ride, and still bitches about treatment.

Kid B, who can solve a calculas problem like TIMVP can solve a Ducks riddle in half the time, gets jack squat, works at Brake Check for his whole life, becomes a drunk, and never does anything.


Then I want someone to tell me how these basketball kids at school are horribly treated.

[davi78239]

"The Ticket" will be discussing this today if any of yall didn't already know.

[duncan2k5]

Why should the age limit be 20? we are considered adults at 18. the league had been pretty successful drafting young players. at 18 we can go to jail, in the past we could be drafted to go to war even if we didn't want to, but now we can't play basketball? Someone said the NBA should not be compared with the regulations of the government, but I disagree because they represent what the U.S. is about (for the most part). For one they carry the title "National" in their name, they represent the U.S. in th olympics, and they are the best league in the world at integrating players. Now suppose either Lebron, Kobe, KG, JO, or any other successful HS player went to college because of the age limit and they got into some career ending situation. that would suck for them because they wont get to fulfill their dream, and they wont be making NBA money. I think JO went too far in calling out race as that is a very sensetive issue, but who knows? maybe stern doesn't like the young, "hip-hop" attitude they bring to the sport.

[adidas11]

Quote: "They really should focus on attending college instead of trying to make an NBA team straight out of high school. Sure a lot of seniors coming out of college suck, but hey, atleast they have that degree to fall back on."

Well that's nice and everything foofida, but focusing on college and whatnot has to be that individuals job, not the NBA's job for trying to force them to go to college. If they truly want to go to college and get a degree, they can go and get it at any time. They can take out loans like thousands of other kids do that can't afford college straight up to pay for the education. They can go to school part time, and work in order to pay for school like lots of others do. Playing basketball in college is NOT a pre-requisite for getting a degree.

[Spurminator]

I think recording studios should have an age limit as well. Too many kids are dropping out and skipping college in order to become the next Teen Pop Star. Plus, it's having a bad effect on pop music in general, because many of these kids are not ready for the demands of being a celebrity or a musician.

Parents need the recording studios to prevent their children from chasing unrealistic dreams.

[ShoogarBear]

This subject is a good Battle Blog. I know someone has brought up the topic in the Battle Blog Authors forum, but it hasn't gotten done yet. I'd appreciate it if it does.

Thanks.

Battle Blog is a good format for some things, but not for this.

For one, I think you can't do justice to the topic with the necessary word limitations.

For another, I think a lot of people can't get completely on board one side or the other.

Like I've said, I think this thread has done surprisingly well on the arguments on both sides.

[ShoogarBear]

I think recording studios should have an age limit as well. Too many kids are dropping out and skipping college in order to become the next Teen Pop Star. Plus, it's having a bad effect on pop music in general, because many of these kids are not ready for the demands of being a celebrity or a musician.

Parents need the recording studios to prevent their children from chasing unrealistic dreams.

What we should do is have them go to college where they can make records for the university. Alma Mater U. will get the recording profits and royalties, but the kids will get a free education and valuable training.

[Kori Ellis]

Battle Blog is a good format for some things, but not for this.

For one, I think you can't do justice to the topic with the necessary word limitations.

For another, I think a lot of people can't get completely on board one side or the other.

Like I've said, I think this thread has done surprisingly well on the arguments on both sides.

Well I kind of want a battle blog on it because I want to make it into a Fan's Opinion type article. So if someone still wants to blog it, I hope they do.

[Spurminator]

What we should do is have them go to college where they can make records for the university. Alma Mater U. will get the recording profits and royalties, but the kids will get a free education and valuable training.

LOL

That's kind of what American Idol is...

You get to be on TV, but we own you for the next 3 years.

[duncan2k5]

i just feel it should be up to the person. they are men. if a man wants to play basketball why should he not? it isn't illegal. so what if he might suck in the NBA? thats his problem. he made the decision and he had the opportunity. and if a vet is mad that a young player is taking up his time, so what? you had your time. not it's someone else's turn. if they are better than you they deserve your spot.

[IcemanCometh]

Shit theres kids at my school who were smarter than hell, could do great things in this world, but couldnt get squat, because they were dirt poor.

But, since KID A, can dunk a basketball, he gets a full ride, and still bitches about treatment.

Kid B, who can solve a calculas problem like TIMVP can solve a Ducks riddle in half the time, gets jack squat, works at Brake Check for his whole life, becomes a drunk, and never does anything.

Maybe if the college could figure out how to make money off of Kid B like they do Kid A he could get a free ride. What world do you live in tpark.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

even though I am a liberal I still feel that a company should be able to set reasonable quotas on their employees in order to have a set standard of quality in said company, i.e. a I.T. firm has the right to demand that all of its employees are educated at the college level in computer science.

If NBA owners feel that at 20 prospective employees will be better fit for their jobs than at 18 then they should be able to have that standard, as long as they can prove that this is more than simple age discrimination but instead a buisness necessity. I.E. teams feign at drafting college seniors because the only truly talented NBA prospects are applying before they are ready, forcing NBA teams to take a risk they do not wish to, and at great harm to their ability to operate effecintly.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

i also know that the 14th amendment to the consitution says that every US citizen will recieve equal protection under the law and therefore this policy can easily be seen as an unconstitutional violation of a prospect's rights.

[Phenomanul]

even though I am a liberal I still feel that a company should be able to set reasonable quotas on their employees in order to have a set standard of quality in said company, i.e. a I.T. firm has the right to demand that all of its employees are educated at the college level in computer science.

If NBA owners feel that at 20 prospective employees will be better fit for their jobs than at 18 then they should be able to have that standard, as long as they can prove that this is more than simple age discrimination but instead a buisness necessity. I.E. teams feign at drafting college seniors because the only truly talented NBA prospects are applying before they are ready, forcing NBA teams to take a risk they do not wish to, and at great harm to their ability to operate effecintly.


I don't think you could successfully separate the two in this case. There are some stats that show that one could be a successful player at the league's current age limit and some stats that show the opposite. This means that age above 18 is not really a factor and should not be used as a stipulation.

My thoughts on the age limit:

1) What a person does or doesn't do is his perogative. If he wishes to take the road to the NBA via college... cool. If not, he might have to suffer the consequences of being ill prepared and then have nothing to fall back on. The road of life is a personal choice.

2) Being told you can't do something simply because of your age does deny that person's right to his/her pursuit of happiness. If you are qualified why should you be told NO. Imagine Dr. Houser (???) being told he couldn't be a Doctor of Medicine because he was only 14, when he was clearly smarter than many of the med-school graduates of his class.

3) Owners are responsible for the future of their teams. I don't believe Stern should have a say in this aspect of the NBA's structure.

4) The NBA should have the best product on the floor at all times. If that means that the mean age for players will drop and that veterans will have to keep playing hard... so be it. I don't want to see players like Steve Smith or Cliff Robinson still trying to log 32 minutes a night.

5) If someone told me that players like LeBron, Kobe, T-Mac, KG, J. O'Neal, Amare, R. Lewis, Carmelo, Livingston, Howard, J. Smith, and our own Parker didn't belong in the league when they entered. Well then the product we have now would have suffered not improved.

6) I give the age-limit supporters this: Centers and Point Guards do take more time to develop. But age is not the factor. Playing time (experience) and skills are. Both Ginobili and Parker were playing college level ball well before they were at college level age.

My suggestion to Stern: Scrap the age-limit thing all together and focus all of your energy on developing a real minor league (this way other cities get involved). If a player needs improvement, then he would be placed on the minor league team. Aged stars would complement the development of these players on the minor league teams.