48MoH: The Frenchness Of Tony Parker

[Blackjack]

The Frenchness of Tony Parker
By Timothy Varner


I asked Guillaume Deschamps, French citizen and 48MoH reader, to contribute the following post. Guillaume goes by “Will” in our comments section, for those of you who stomp around in there. Earlier this summer, amidst discussions led by Brian Phillips and myself regarding NBA players and international play (follow the links in the first paragraph), I asked Guillaume to explain the history of Parker’s commitment to France...


Read more (http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/09/14/the-frenchness-of-tony-parker/)

[z0sa]

Parker's Belgianness is unaccounted for

[Blackjack]

Parker's Belgianness is unaccounted for

Did you read it?

It's pretty long, but it's a good read and worth the time.

[z0sa]

Did you read it?

It's pretty long, but it's a good read and worth the time.

i skimmed over it, just felt like saying "belgianness"

[Blackjack]

i skimmed over it, just felt like saying "belgianness"

Yeah, I knew you were joking around, but the piece really goes into all of that -- his background -- and how it is that he came to play for France despite his Belgian-ness.

Good read.

[Mel_13]

I wonder if the SpursTalk poster will_spurs is the 48MOH guest writer of this piece?

[tomtom]

That was an excellent read

[romain.star]

TP is French cause that's where he used to live from 3 weeks old to 19 years old. He grew up here and learned everything here as a child and as a teenager. I don't see how spending your first 3 weeks in Belgium makes you belgian.
We call it "le droit du sol".

[TDMVPDPOY]

whats belgiums roster like, and would they be successful if parker decided to rep them instead of playing for the FNT

[Freeze]

TP is French cause that's where he used to live from 3 weeks old to 19 years old. He grew up here and learned everything here as a child and as a teenager. I don't see how spending your first 3 weeks in Belgium makes you belgian.
We call it "le droit du sol".

LOL isn't your "droit du sol" is being born in the country ???
TP had to apply for French citizenship because none of his parents are ("bloodright / droit du sang"), and he wasn't born there (droit du sol). Living in the country does not give you the citisenship, just the right to apply for it, and it can be refused.

[Bambililos]

LOL isn't your "droit du sol" is being born in the country ???
TP had to apply for French citizenship because none of his parents are ("bloodright / droit du sang"), and he wasn't born there (droit du sol). Living in the country does not give you the citisenship, just the right to apply for it, and it can be refused.

Not if you lived something like 10 of your first 18 years in France. You got to apply for it, but it cannot be refused.

[Freeze]

Not if you lived something like 10 of your first 18 years in France. You got to apply for it, but it cannot be refused.

:nope

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loi_du_16_mars_1998_relative_%C3%A0_la_nationalit% C3%A9

La loi n°98-170 du 16 mars 1998 relative à la nationalité, dite loi Guigou, et promulguée sous le gouvernement Jospin, a modifié certaines dispositions de la loi Pasqua de 1993, en retirant notamment l'obligation, au mineur né en France de parents étrangers, de faire une demande officielle, entre 16 et 21 ans, afin d'obtenir la nationalité française. La loi Guigou a ainsi renoué avec la pratique du droit du sol en vigueur de 1889 à 1993 [1]. De plus, la loi créé un titre d'identité républicain qui permet à ces mineurs de voyager librement dans l'espace Schengen.


Obtention de la nationalité française pour un mineur né en France de parents étrangers [modifier]
La loi permet à un mineur né en France de parents étrangers d'obtenir la nationalité française à l'accession à la majorité à trois conditions [2]:

être né(e) en France à compter du 1er septembre 1980 ;
résider en France au moment de la majorité ;
avoir résidé en France pendant au moins 5 années, consécutives ou non, depuis l'âge de 11 ans [3]
Par rapport à la loi Pasqua, cela enlève une disposition qui soumettait l'obtention de la nationalité française à une procédure explicite de déclaration, par le mineur, entre l'âge de 16 et 21 ans [2].

Edit : un petit complément
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalit%C3%A9_fran%C3%A7aise#L.27obtention_de_l a_nationalit.C3.A9_fran.C3.A7aise_pour_les_personn es_physiques

L'obtention de la nationalité française pour les personnes physiques [modifier]
La France, pour déterminer à quels individus elle accorde la nationalité, conjugue le droit du sang et le double droit du sol.

Naît donc Français tout individu :

ayant au moins un parent français
ou né en France d'un parent au moins né en France.
Pour ce qui est des enfants nés en France de parents étrangers, dotés d'une carte de séjour, ceux-ci obtiennent la nationalité française de plein droit au moment de leur accession à la majorité légale, à la seule condition qu'ils résident en France lorsqu'ils atteignent l'âge de 18 ans et qu'ils y résident habituellement depuis l'âge de 11 ans (sur une durée minimale de 5 ans). Cette procédure d'obtention de plein droit de la nationalité est en vigueur depuis 1885, avec la seule parenthèse de 1993 (loi Pasqua)-1998 (loi Guigou [12]).

Enfin, la nationalité peut s'acquérir après la naissance par :

décret de naturalisation . La procédure est destinée aux étrangers majeurs, résidant habituellement sur le sol français depuis au moins cinq ans, une durée qui peut être réduite dans certains cas (études dans un établissement français, « services importants rendus à la France ». Depuis la loi du 26 novembre 2003 sur l’immigration, le séjour des étrangers en France et la nationalité, le candidat à la naturalisation voit son « assimilation à la communauté française » évaluée lors d’un entretien individuel.
Mariage avec un(e) Français(e). Le délai pour obtenir la nationalité française est selon les cas de quatre ou cinq ans.

Sorry guys, I'm too lazy to translate, but basically it says I'm right :p:

[romain.star]

LOL isn't your "droit du sol" is being born in the country ???
TP had to apply for French citizenship because none of his parents are ("bloodright / droit du sang"), and he wasn't born there (droit du sol). Living in the country does not give you the citisenship, just the right to apply for it, and it can be refused.

In fact, the "droit du sol" is based on the notion of location (where you're born or where you live).

2 cases where the "droit du sol" is applied:
A- you're born in France --> you get the french citizenship automatically. (ex: me!)
B- you live in France for a certain amount of time --> the french citizenship is not automatically given, you have to apply for it. A Commission will examine your case. (ex: TP is not born in France, his father is american, his mother is swedish; however thanks to the "Droit du sol", he has been given the french citizenship).

[Milo]

In fact, the "droit du sol" is based on the notion of location (where you're born or where you live).

2 cases where the "droit du sol" is applied:
A- you're born in France --> you get the french citizenship automatically. (ex: me!)
B- you live in France for a certain amount of time --> the french citizenship is not automatically given, you have to apply for it. A Commission will examine your case. (ex: TP is not born in France, his father is american, his mother is swedish; however thanks to the "Droit du sol", he has been given the french citizenship).

Nope, the "droit du sol" concerns only citizenship of people born in the country.
People living long enough in a country to apply for citizenship is part of the naturalization process; but is not part of the legal definition of "droit du sol".

BTW, French citizenship is rather tough to obtain by the naturalization process. American citizenship, by comparison, is much easier to obtain. (almost automatic 5 year after receiving a green card)

[will_spurs]

I wonder if the SpursTalk poster will_spurs is the 48MOH guest writer of this piece?

Yup, that's me. Thanks for the kind words, it was a bit hard to come up with new facts about Tony Parker's past but I hope I at least managed to get some interesting tidbits in there. The rest was mostly about a French perspective and describing what it means in France if TP is playing for the NT or not.

Re: the "droit du sol" article, I think the important quote in Freeze's post is "Cette procédure d'obtention de plein droit de la nationalité est en vigueur depuis 1885, avec la seule parenthèse de 1993 (loi Pasqua)-1998 (loi Guigou [12])." which is exactly what happened for Parker since he applied for French citizenship in 1997, when the rules where slightly different. I think he managed to get the French citizenship before turning 18, contrary to what is stated in the current law. Anyhow my point in the article was to show that nationality didn't "fall on him" the way it happens for most of us, TP had the choice and chose France and I see some significance in that.

[mathbzh]

Good work will_spurs.
A comparison with Noah is interesting.

Noah had to chose to play for France.
But it looks like he does not really consider himself French but more a world citizen.
So, playing for the FNT may not be important for him. He probably consider this as something interesting and a good experience that may be closed to what he once lived with the Gators.
For Tony, it is much more than that.

[romain.star]

Re Milo: my teachers in political sciences always told us that people who live long enough in a country and who apply and obtain the citizenship are still (undirectly) under the "droit du sol". I'll trust them on that one

Great article btw will_spurs...

IMO, when you talk about TP's frenchness, legal aspects are not as important as feelings.
TP didn't choose to be a French citizen because since he grew in this country from 3 weeks old to 18 years old, in his head, he was French just like you (?) and me.

I have a friend, born in Kenya, American father, German mother. He is living in France since he's 1 month old and feels 100% French despite being aware of the fact that he has international roots.

On the other hand, Noah has a French father (born in Cameroun... sic) but he doesn't have any frenchness in him cause he's never lived here.

[will_spurs]

Great article btw will_spurs...

Thanks.


IMO, when you talk about TP's frenchness, legal aspects are not as important as feelings.

I hope that's something I managed to convey in the article, the important point is that TP feels French...


like you (?)

Yes.


On the other hand, Noah has a French father (born in Cameroun... sic) but he doesn't have any frenchness in him cause he's never lived here.

Noah's "world citizen" feeling probably comes a lot from the way he was raised and his father's view of life, though. I wouldn't say he doesn't have any "frenchness" in him--he probably has just as much "frenchness" as TP had "US-ness" before he was drafted, at the minimum.

[Lady M]

On the other hand, Noah has a French father (born in Cameroun... sic) but he doesn't have any frenchness in him cause he's never lived here.

Noah live in in France when he was young in Neuilly (the mayor was Sarkozy)
i think betwwin 5 and 12-14 years

[romain.star]

Noah's "world citizen" feeling probably comes a lot from the way he was raised and his father's view of life, though. I wouldn't say he doesn't have any "frenchness" in him--he probably has just as much "frenchness" as TP had "US-ness" before he was drafted, at the minimum.

All in all, Noah might have only 10% of frenchness in him but at the end of the day, those 10% will help us big time in Turkey and (crossed fingers) in London !

[romain.star]

Noah live in in France when he was young in Neuilly (the mayor was Sarkozy)
i think betwwin 5 and 12-14 years

Really? Never heard of that... thanks for the info

[Freeze]

Re Milo: my teachers in political sciences always told us that people who live long enough in a country and who apply and obtain the citizenship are still (undirectly) under the "droit du sol". I'll trust them on that one


Sorry buddy, but once again "droit du sol" is being born, not lived a long time.
I know plenty of people due to my job living in France for years with green card (carte de séjour) or not, who applied for French citizenship, and who did not get it. Read the law I've posted, the only way to get it automatically when none of your parents are French is to be born here.
Maybe you should ask for the law to your teacher.

[Freeze]

Re: the "droit du sol" article, I think the important quote in Freeze's post is "Cette procédure d'obtention de plein droit de la nationalité est en vigueur depuis 1885, avec la seule parenthèse de 1993 (loi Pasqua)-1998 (loi Guigou [12])." which is exactly what happened for Parker since he applied for French citizenship in 1997, when the rules where slightly different. I think he managed to get the French citizenship before turning 18, contrary to what is stated in the current law. Anyhow my point in the article was to show that nationality didn't "fall on him" the way it happens for most of us, TP had the choice and chose France and I see some significance in that.

I'm gonna reply to this in French as I'm still lazy :p:

Tu te trompes, quand TP a demandé la nationalité en 97, la loi Guigou n'était pas en vigueur, donc les personnes nées en France de parents étranger n'obtenaient pas automatiquement la nationalité. De toute façon, encore une fois, TP n'est pas né en France, et donc ne rentre pas dans ce cas de figure.
TP a demandé la nationalité en tant que mineur étrangé résident en France.
Ce processus de naturalisation n'est en aucun cas dépendant du droit du sol, et si la demande de Tony a été acceptée, c'est parceque c'était un jeune basketteur prometteur. Son dossier intéressait l'état, il avait certainement une tonne de recommandation de toute part, et donc il a été naturalisé.

[romain.star]

Sorry buddy, but once again "droit du sol" is being born, not lived a long time.
I know plenty of people due to my job living in France for years with green card (carte de séjour) or not, who applied for French citizenship, and who did not get it. Read the law I've posted, the only way to get it automatically when none of your parents are French is to be born here.
Maybe you should ask for the law to your teacher.

Too late to ask the teachers !!

Anyway, i've always heard that the ''droit du sol'' could be a non-automatical right. You can gained it by living for a certain amount of time in a country and it still be called ''droit du sol".
I should go back to my courses to check that out!

[will_spurs]

I'm gonna reply to this in French as I'm still lazy :p:

Actually we are agreeing. I was only pointing out that your whole quote above (about the naturalization process) didn't apply in 97 because it was under Loi Pasqua at the time which was different. Since Parker got the French nationality before 18 it's pretty clear he got special treatment (and as I pointed out in the article I have a feeling it's linked to his invitation to join the INSEP).

[Freeze]

Actually we are agreeing. I was only pointing out that your whole quote above (about the naturalization process) didn't apply in 97 because it was under Loi Pasqua at the time which was different. Since Parker got the French nationality before 18 it's pretty clear he got special treatment (and as I pointed out in the article I have a feeling it's linked to his invitation to join the INSEP).

Yeah, your article was a nice read, props :toast

Do you know how old Tony was when he was selected to play for a French NT for the first time (I know he played the sub-16 Eurobasket in 1997), I guess he could have applied for French citizenship to play for France ?

[Freeze]

Too late to ask the teachers !!
Anyway, i've always heard that the ''droit du sol'' could be a non-automatical right.

It was right in France between the Pasqua's law and the Guigou's law.
I guess it may be right in some other countries.


You can gained it by living for a certain amount of time in a country and it still be called ''droit du sol".
Once again, not in France. Off course a foreigner living, let's say, in Paris for years would consider himself as a Parisian, and could be called as one. In some way, it is a "droit du sol". But in France it does not apply to citizenship. Read the newspapers, ask your friends, they are thousands of foreign people living in France who apply every year for citizenship and don't get it.


I should go back to my courses to check that out!
Quite boring to do :p:

Edit : Damn, I got a flag now, nobody will call me Albanian now !!!!
:rollin

[Macca76]

Yup, that's me. Thanks for the kind words, it was a bit hard to come up with new facts about Tony Parker's past but I hope I at least managed to get some interesting tidbits in there. The rest was mostly about a French perspective and describing what it means in France if TP is playing for the NT or not.

Re: the "droit du sol" article, I think the important quote in Freeze's post is "Cette procédure d'obtention de plein droit de la nationalité est en vigueur depuis 1885, avec la seule parenthèse de 1993 (loi Pasqua)-1998 (loi Guigou [12])." which is exactly what happened for Parker since he applied for French citizenship in 1997, when the rules where slightly different. I think he managed to get the French citizenship before turning 18, contrary to what is stated in the current law. Anyhow my point in the article was to show that nationality didn't "fall on him" the way it happens for most of us, TP had the choice and chose France and I see some significance in that.

Congrats for the article dude, very good piece of work :toast

[will_spurs]

Edit : Damn, I got a flag now, nobody will call me Albanian now !!!!:rollin

I guess they will manage to catch all of us one day but I'm still resisting like Asterix and Obelix...

:whine


Congrats for the article dude, very good piece of work :toast

Thanks, I don't do that every day obviously so it's nice to hear that some people enjoyed it.