Screw the insurance companies!!!

[hater]

they are in the process of raising your health insurance in the next few weeks from anywhere from 15% - 25%!!!

they are doing this first to make themselves even more rich before the health reform passes, to piss the govt off, and to screw the ppl.

what I don't understand is how some common ppl are still backing the insurance companies. It is a fact they are EVIL.

IMO I am 100% behind any law that will screw them. goddam those mofos are evil!!!

[greyforest]

all insurance companies should be NPOs

[coyotes_geek]

IMO I am 100% behind any law that will screw them. goddam those mofos are evil!!!

And with your support the government will be more than happy to oblige.

For a small fee of course..............

[SouthernFried]

Insurance companies are evil...we want free health care, and they are making MONEY off our misfortunes!

The Govt is the ONLY solution to take care of us...it ain't evil like these guys and doesn't want our money!

[101A]

they are in the process of raising your health insurance in the next few weeks from anywhere from 15% - 25%!!!

they are doing this first to make themselves even more rich before the health reform passes, to piss the govt off, and to screw the ppl.

what I don't understand is how some common ppl are still backing the insurance companies. It is a fact they are EVIL.

IMO I am 100% behind any law that will screw them. goddam those mofos are evil!!!


Generalize much?

Just renewed a group in San Antonio of 47 employees. 22 of them have their dependents on the company's medical plan.

They were insured with Aetna; who, indeed proposed a 4% rate increase for the upcoming year. Blue Cross/Blue Shield, however, just wrote the case - with a 3% DECREASE in rates. Now, the premium is still significant: ~ $56,000 per month - but last year that case had a cancer patient that ALONE cost $480,000 - as well as a set of premature twins that set Aetna back over a quarter of a million EACH; Those three individuals cost more than the entire premium received last year by Aetna; SO - they ate ALL the other claims, AND offered a reasonable renewal for the upcoming year; the cancer patient died/the premie's grew up and got healthy, enough so that BC/BS is gonna take a flyer on the group, and hope for the upcoming year the group is healthier.

Your world must be a simple one; black/white - good/bad - things are not that simple. Insurance companies are not evil.

[greyforest]

insurance companies are not evil, but their purpose is to generate profit.

this means that they
1. minimize expenses by denying coverage to policy holders in any possible way
2. maximize profit by accepting as many low-risk clients as possible while filtering out high-risk clients by either denying coverage or offering coverage only with exorbitant rates from which they may profit

for-profit insurance is basically a scam.

[101A]

insurance companies are not evil, but their purpose is to generate profit.

OK


this means that they
1. minimize expenses by denying coverage to policy holders in any possible way

Bullshit. E

VERY insurance policy sold in this country is a contract that specifies what is, and what is not covered. For a premium, the insurance company MUST pay what it is contractually obligated to pay, and NOT pay what it is NOT contained within the parameters of that contract. Those plans are filed and approved by the departments of insurance of the various states BEFORE they are ever marketed and then sold to an individual or a group. There is no gray area, and when the insurance company gets it wrong, there is almost always a provider (hospital, doctor, etc) that that company get it RIGHT - not just the poor helpless patient; it's a big, powerful doctor or hospital that does battle, with there own battallion of attorneys. When there isn't a provider involved? THEN the person who feels they've been wronged simply files a complaint with the Dept. of Insurance - remember, they have THE plan on file, AND have the ability to fine, penalize, or kick the insurance company the hell out of the state!

Evil; dropped coverage! Bullshit, bullshit. Cite examples; with specifics, or don't bring those worn out cliches in her.



2. maximize profit by accepting as many low-risk clients as possible while filtering out high-risk clients by either denying coverage or offering coverage only with exorbitant rates from which they may profit

for-profit insurance is basically a scam.

Again, bullshit.

Insurance company's make money by correctly assessing risk; and collecting the correct premium to return a profit from that risk. If they over estimate costs, they won't write the case; another, more aggressive company will scoop up that premium; and if they underestimate? They take a bath.

Get a clue, learn something.

[hater]

what's funny is that ppl are afraid the govmt will take over but prefer these evil motherfucking companies to keep the control. Free market what? only a handful of them control this "industry"

[hater]

Insurance companies are evil...we want free health care, and they are making MONEY off our misfortunes!

The Govt is the ONLY solution to take care of us...it ain't evil like these guys and doesn't want our money!

so you have more trust in a for profit corporation than your own goverment? :rolleyes

[in2deep]

Generalize much?

Just renewed a group in San Antonio of 47 employees. 22 of them have their dependents on the company's medical plan.

They were insured with Aetna; who, indeed proposed a 4% rate increase for the upcoming year. Blue Cross/Blue Shield, however, just wrote the case - with a 3% DECREASE in rates. Now, the premium is still significant: ~ $56,000 per month - but last year that case had a cancer patient that ALONE cost $480,000 - as well as a set of premature twins that set Aetna back over a quarter of a million EACH; Those three individuals cost more than the entire premium received last year by Aetna; SO - they ate ALL the other claims, AND offered a reasonable renewal for the upcoming year; the cancer patient died/the premie's grew up and got healthy, enough so that BC/BS is gonna take a flyer on the group, and hope for the upcoming year the group is healthier.

Your world must be a simple one; black/white - good/bad - things are not that simple. Insurance companies are not evil.

20% of americans cannot afford health insurance. yes, insurance companies are saints.

[DarkReign]

20% of americans cannot afford health insurance. yes, insurance companies are saints.

To be fair and succinct, insurance companies have nothing to do with the cost of ever-increasing cost of medical care in this country.

They have their share of blame in this debacle and most of it is self-interest related.

But that 20% of the American people are broke isnt their fault.

[nuclearfm]

all insurance companies should be NPOs

They should, in Minnesota they are and the state is known for top notch care.

[in2deep]

To be fair and succinct, insurance companies have nothing to do with the cost of ever-increasing cost of medical care in this country.

so you think medical care cost is the only factor in calculating medical insurance cost??? :bang

oh life would be so easy if that were true

[101A]

so you think medical care cost is the only factor in calculating medical insurance cost??? :bang

oh life would be so easy if that were true

No, but it's responsible for the VAST majority of the inflation.

[in2deep]

No, but it's responsible for the VAST majority of the inflation.

of course. But it's silly to think other factors are not a big factor. it's like saying food cost is the only driving force for prices in a restaurant.

[101A]

so you have more trust in a for profit corporation than your own goverment? :rolleyes

What has the government EVER done to earn my undying trust?

What can I do to hold my government responsible when it slights, or wrongs me?

What recourse would I have if the United States Government decided to not pay my claim, as opposed to a private insurance company?

I have absolutely NO faith in "my" government. I am more wary of their power than any other entity in the known universe. Because they have exponentially more control over my life than any other entity - up to, and including, the ability to legally end my life.

[101A]

of course. But it's silly to think other factors are not a big factor. it's like saying food cost is the only driving force for prices in a restaurant.

It's also silly to believe that those other costs are inordinately high; the cost to adjudicate a health insurance claim have dropped in real dollars in the past ten years.

[hater]

What has the government EVER done to earn my undying trust?

they educate you and your children, police your home and protect your homeland. And so far have kept most of your rights for the last 100s years.



What can I do to hold my government responsible when it slights, or wrongs me?

same thing you do when private company wrongs you.



What recourse would I have if the United States Government decided to not pay my claim, as opposed to a private insurance company?

same recourse you have if a private company does not decide to pay your claim.



I have absolutely NO faith in "my" government. I am more wary of their power than any other entity in the known universe. Because they have exponentially more control over my life than any other entity - up to, and including, the ability to legally end my life.

maybe moving somewhere else might help?

[in2deep]

It's also silly to believe that those other costs are inordinately high; the cost to adjudicate a health insurance claim have dropped in real dollars in the past ten years.

mmm, wonder how the insurance company execs make their billions then...

[101A]

what's funny is that ppl are afraid the govmt will take over but prefer these evil motherfucking companies to keep the control. Free market what? only a handful of them control this "industry"

"Only a Handful" = there are dozens - as well as other competitors; but yes, 5 are the very biggest.

How about the 5 biggest auto companies? They must "control" the industry. Maybe the government should start competing to keep them honest...


wait....


nevermind.

[101A]

mmm, wonder how the insurance company execs make their billions then...

link.

C'mon. Where you getting your information? HealthCare execs != Wal Street bankers. Their CEO compensation is NOTHING like the investment banks; their profit margin, as an industry, is 83rd on the list. You are just a walking, talking cliche, aren't you?

[hater]

"Only a Handful" = there are dozens - as well as other competitors; but yes, 5 are the very biggest.

How about the 5 biggest auto companies? They must "control" the industry. Maybe the government should start competing to keep them honest...


wait....


nevermind.

good job at comparing having a car to having health insurance. :tu

[101A]

they educate you and your children, police your home and protect your homeland. And so far have kept most of your rights for the last 100s years.

No. I send my kids to school where they waste 8 hours a day; learn practically nothing; in most cases my wife and I teach them at home what the system fails to accomplish during the. Besides; the Federal Govt. at this point has not a lot to do with that.




same thing you do when private company wrongs you. same recourse you have if a private company does not decide to pay your claim.

You're serious? Medicare doesn't answer to the Texas Department of Insurance, and I cannot sue them in State court (much easier to do) - nor do they EVER have to pay punitive damages for negligence or misdeeds; in fact, I don't know that it has ever been successfully sued. Federal Government entities, for all intent and purpose, are above civil litigation.



maybe moving somewhere else might help?

Love it or leave it? Really? How about I just do my damndest to make it better for me and my kids? How about I want them to have the same opportunities to succeed that I have had; without MORE onerous govt. programs and debts hanging over them? Like you said, I KNOW what an insurance company is trying to do; make a profit. They are not dishonest about that. WTF is the government trying to do from one moemnt to the next? Depends on whose in charge doesn't it? And even then, they won't tell you.

[101A]

good job at comparing having a car to having health insurance. :tu


No problem. One builds cars, one assumes risk. They have more in common than you, apparently, think. In fact, GM is one of the biggest Health insurers in the country; fwiw.

You, obviously, get very emotionally invested in these things; and can't separate your feelings from rational discussion. You think because, OMG, people DIE from being sick; that somehow health insurance is on some pedestal.

What about Home Insurance, I mean, people can lose their whole house; their cats, dogs, pictures!!! THE HUMANITY!!!! Shouldn't the government just insure everyone's home? What about life insurance? I mean a guy could die, and if he didn't have life insurance, his family could lose their house, their cats, dogs -THE HUMANITY!!! The Government obviously ought to give everyone life insurance.

[hater]

No problem. One builds cars, one assumes risk. They have more in common than you, apparently, think. In fact, GM is one of the biggest Health insurers in the country; fwiw.

You, obviously, get very emotionally invested in these things; and can't separate your feelings from rational discussion. You think because, OMG, people DIE from being sick; that somehow health insurance is on some pedestal.
What about Home Insurance, I mean, people can lose their whole house; their cats, dogs, pictures!!! THE HUMANITY!!!! Shouldn't the government just insure everyone's home? What about life insurance? I mean a guy could die, and if he didn't have life insurance, his family could lose their house, their cats, dogs -THE HUMANITY!!! The Government obviously ought to give everyone life insurance.

and the true colors show up

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

they are in the process of raising your health insurance in the next few weeks from anywhere from 15% - 25%!!!

they are doing this first to make themselves even more rich before the health reform passes, to piss the govt off, and to screw the ppl.

what I don't understand is how some common ppl are still backing the insurance companies. It is a fact they are EVIL.

IMO I am 100% behind any law that will screw them. goddam those mofos are evil!!!


Psst, they won't get screwed. If Obamacare passes, they just got handed 40 million more clients, on the back of your and my taxes (assuming you're paying some).

Oh, and those 'taxes and fees' that are going to be charged by the government to cover the 'cost' of Obamacare? Guess what - they're going to pass those back on to us all (and the government for those on the govt. tit) as well.

Sleep tight!

[CosmicCowboy]

I know that Humana lost their ass with my company this year...One guy had surgery to rebuild his sinus cavities for some reason and that cost $110,000. Another guys wife has terminal stomach cancer...thats probably costing them $200,000 at least...another employee just had a heart attack and 5 bypasses...that's another easy $150,000...My premiums were about $90,000.

[greyforest]

OK



Bullshit. E

VERY insurance policy sold in this country is a contract that specifies what is, and what is not covered. For a premium, the insurance company MUST pay what it is contractually obligated to pay, and NOT pay what it is NOT contained within the parameters of that contract. Those plans are filed and approved by the departments of insurance of the various states BEFORE they are ever marketed and then sold to an individual or a group. There is no gray area, and when the insurance company gets it wrong, there is almost always a provider (hospital, doctor, etc) that that company get it RIGHT - not just the poor helpless patient; it's a big, powerful doctor or hospital that does battle, with there own battallion of attorneys. When there isn't a provider involved? THEN the person who feels they've been wronged simply files a complaint with the Dept. of Insurance - remember, they have THE plan on file, AND have the ability to fine, penalize, or kick the insurance company the hell out of the state!

Evil; dropped coverage! Bullshit, bullshit. Cite examples; with specifics, or don't bring those worn out cliches in her.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/

michael moore isn't exactly unbiased, but the anecdote here isn't fabricated. the insurance company uses a loophole it created to deny this guy coverage, which effectively would have killed him. of course, bad publicity is more damaging to this company's profits than just paying for his operation, so that's what they did.

how many guys like this didn't have the same luck?





Again, bullshit.

Insurance company's make money by correctly assessing risk; and collecting the correct premium to return a profit from that risk. If they over estimate costs, they won't write the case; another, more aggressive company will scoop up that premium; and if they underestimate? They take a bath.

Get a clue, learn something.

yes, that's why people with pre-existing medical conditions cannot receive affordable health insurance, and that's why there are draconian screenings of any applicant to an insurer. just a personal anecdote here - i had to tell a health insurance company whether or not i participated in drag races in the last 6 years. this is a ridiculous invasion of privacy - what i do in my own time is my fucking business, not something for an insurance company to use as part of their formula to determine how much money i'd have to pay them so they can earn profit from me.

for-profit health insurance is inhuman, and judging by how much you suck their dick you must work for one.

[mogrovejo]

Psst, they won't get screwed. If Obamacare passes, they just got handed 40 million more clients, on the back of your and my taxes (assuming you're paying some).

Oh, and those 'taxes and fees' that are going to be charged by the government to cover the 'cost' of Obamacare? Guess what - they're going to pass those back on to us all (and the government for those on the govt. tit) as well.

Sleep tight!

I was going to write something like this. They're getting screwed by getting a $800 billions subsidy paid by the taxpayers? Well, I'd love to be screwed that way.

[Winehole23]

@greyforest: 101A knows something about it. I'd say his contributions in the thread function more like an athletic cup than a blowjob, though.

Nobody likes getting kicked in the nuts.

[mogrovejo]

same thing you do when private company wrongs you.


Unless paying taxes becomes voluntary, all these analogies are pretty flawed.

[Drachen]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/

michael moore isn't exactly unbiased, but the anecdote here isn't fabricated. the insurance company uses a loophole it created to deny this guy coverage, which effectively would have killed him. of course, bad publicity is more damaging to this company's profits than just paying for his operation, so that's what they did.

how many guys like this didn't have the same luck?





yes, that's why people with pre-existing medical conditions cannot receive affordable health insurance, and that's why there are draconian screenings of any applicant to an insurer. just a personal anecdote here - i had to tell a health insurance company whether or not i participated in drag races in the last 6 years. this is a ridiculous invasion of privacy - what i do in my own time is my fucking business, not something for an insurance company to use as part of their formula to determine how much money i'd have to pay them so they can earn profit from me.

for-profit health insurance is inhuman, and judging by how much you suck their dick you must work for one.


Ok, I have to ask, do you think that someone who smokes, or is grossly obese should have to pay more, less or the same than someone who doesn't smoke, and stays physically fit??

[mogrovejo]

What about for-profit restaurants, supermarkets and farming, are they inhuman as well? And the for-profit housing industry, should it be disallowed?

I understand that emotional point-of-view and how disparaging it is that some people can't afford to buy health insurance. The mistake here is to believe that all problems in a society can be magically fixed by government intervention (or by anyone's intervention, by that matter). For ages, big parts of the population in the western world have starved. People simply couldn't afford to pay food. But today the cases of deaths by malnutrition in the western world are almost non-existent. And it wasn't because the government took over the food industry.

There are no perfect worlds or societies where all evil and misfortunes (or market flaws) are eradicated. You can't change the reality by legislating - or else, an easier solution would be to increase the minimum wage to $100.000 and forbid companies from waiving people. The best way to minimize the problem of those people, IMO, is to increase the competition amongst health insurance companies and health providers and adopt a fiscal policy that allows more wealth creation and encoruages the civil society to proppell their philantropic efforts.

[greyforest]

@greyforest: 101A knows something about it. I'd say his contributions in the thread function more like an athletic cup than a blowjob, though.

Nobody likes getting kicked in the nuts.


oh no the poor insurance companies

[greyforest]

What about for-profit restaurants, supermarkets and farming, are they inhuman as well? And the for-profit housing industry, should it be disallowed?

capitalism makes sense for a lot of things, but health insurance? there's a ridiculous conflict of interest there.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

capitalism makes sense for a lot of things, but health insurance? there's a ridiculous conflict of interest there.

On the same foot, are you saying that socialized health care makes sense? We've had three experiments in this in this country so far (Massachussetts, Tennessee, and Hawaii), and all have been epic failures and monolithic budget sinkers.

[greyforest]

On the same foot, are you saying that socialized health care makes sense? We've had three experiments in this in this country so far (Massachussetts, Tennessee, and Hawaii), and all have been epic failures and monolithic budget sinkers.

http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/learning/reference/factbook/graph/11-01-04-g01.gif

the US is in a league of its own when it comes to healthcare

this graph is per capita btw

[nuclearfm]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/

michael moore isn't exactly unbiased, but the anecdote here isn't fabricated. the insurance company uses a loophole it created to deny this guy coverage, which effectively would have killed him. of course, bad publicity is more damaging to this company's profits than just paying for his operation, so that's what they did.

how many guys like this didn't have the same luck?





yes, that's why people with pre-existing medical conditions cannot receive affordable health insurance, and that's why there are draconian screenings of any applicant to an insurer. just a personal anecdote here - i had to tell a health insurance company whether or not i participated in drag races in the last 6 years. this is a ridiculous invasion of privacy - what i do in my own time is my fucking business, not something for an insurance company to use as part of their formula to determine how much money i'd have to pay them so they can earn profit from me.

for-profit health insurance is inhuman, and judging by how much you suck their dick you must work for one.

Ain't that the truth? So many assholes think that Car Insurance and Health Insurance are the same. It's a pre-1860 mindset. Property and Humans aren't the same anymore.

[101A]

http://www.thepresidency.gov.za/learning/reference/factbook/graph/11-01-04-g01.gif

the US is in a league of its own when it comes to healthcare

this graph is per capita btw

And your point is?

Looks to me that US spends as much per capita PUBLICLY as most other nations; but only covers half its population with that expenditure - the privately pays that much more again; your graph shows in no uncertain terms that the COST of healthcare in the United States; not specifically the funding mechanism to pay for it, is what is SO much higher than in other countries.

But you've swallowed the kool-aid in one gulp haven't you? Insurance Companies! INSURANCE COMPANIES!!!!

What about HOSPITALS!!! DOCTORS!!!! PHARMACEUTICALS!!!!! THOSE are the entities receiving the payments; but they aren't as easy to demonize, are they? For every insurance company not willing to pay for a treatment, there is a provider not willing to give it away.

Why is the profit of an insurance company obscene, but a 7 figure salary for a neurosurgeon not? I purport that NEITHER is inherently obscene; but that if we could bring some level of consumer control into the mix - we could improve cost, availability AND quality. HR 3200 will NOT do that; it will further seperate the consumer from purchasing decisions, and try to manage costs through regulation and fiat; a method that, inevitibly, will result in price controls, followed by rationing, followed by quality deterioration.

Less government, less insurance IS the solution; but that ain't what anyone in government (or the insurance co's) is proposing; surprise, surprise.

[101A]

Ain't that the truth? So many assholes think that Car Insurance and Health Insurance are the same. It's a pre-1860 mindset. Property and Humans aren't the same anymore.

And so many people think that the government can actually fix something when it says it can. It's a pre-1930's mindset:

HMMM, what was the big new around 1860 you are referring to?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Communist-manifesto.png

[boutons_deux]

I got a quote from a hospital, $137K if I had insurance, $37K w/o insurance.

What is the acutal COST to the hospital of delivering this treatment?

Insurance companies are an easy target, and clearly guilty of major contributor to US health care disaster,

but greedy, over-charging, patient-flipping doctors and hospitals/clinics all contribute to the disaster.

[hater]

HR 3200 will NOT do that; it will further seperate the consumer from purchasing decisions,

mmm, how is that so? I thought consumer would have same decisions and even more with the public option.



and try to manage costs through regulation and fiat; a method that, inevitibly, will result in price controls, followed by rationing, followed by quality deterioration.

are you talking about quality deterioration of medical care, or medical insurance? how is regulating health insurance going to affect medical care quality?



Less government, less insurance IS the solution; but that ain't what anyone in government (or the insurance co's) is proposing; surprise, surprise.

what do you mean by less insurance? how is that going to ensure the 20% can afford it?

[101A]

I got a quote from a hospital, $137K if I had insurance, $37K w/o insurance.

What is the acutal COST to the hospital of delivering this treatment?

Insurance companies are an easy target, and clearly guilty of major contributor to US health care disaster,

but greedy, over-charging, patient-flipping doctors and hospitals/clinics all contribute to the disaster.

Actually, the insurance company's are in on that, too. Part of any "repricing" contract describes how much of a % discount is to be demonstrated on a bill; the ACTUAL RETAIL price shown on an EOB (explanation of benefit) can change from insurer to insurer -while the "paid amount" - remains pretty constant. The reason? The insurance company's want to be able to claim larger "discounts" (by percentage) in their marketing materials to companies who are shopping.

The real cost? It's what the insurance company's are paying; after all, 95% of the people being treated are paying that amount - obviously that is the target the bean counters at the hospital are looking at. I have negotiated out-of-contract fees with hospitals for clients; I can usually get the price very near, to exactly what, the insurance company's pay. If you pay in advance, you can get it cheaper.

37K B? Hope you're alright.

[101A]

mmm, how is that so? I thought consumer would have same decisions and even more with the public option.[quote]

Consumer choice in what insurance plan they buy - which will be approximately the same; NOT consumer choice/decion making authority where the costs are actually incurred - with the provider. THAT is the key.



[Quote]are you talking about quality deterioration of medical care, or medical insurance? how is regulating health insurance going to affect medical care quality?

Medical Care; and insurance. More and more they become, and by design with HR3200, commodities - the patients are warm bodies, not people. The government will require more and more to be paid for by the insurance plans, as various lobbies and special interest groups get there way...the actual patients are NOT the payors; so they are not given the respect given to someone who can take their business elsewhere; doctors offices will be full ALL the time, so the business, pocketbook, incentive to live by the mantra "the customer is always right" will be non-existent. Doctor's offices often ALREADY act like they are somehow doing you a favor by giving you an appointment, don't they? It will get worse.




what do you mean by less insurance? how is that going to ensure the 20% can afford it?

First, I agree that everyone in this a country as wealthy as ours ought to have health coverage - so I am not talking about fewer people being covered. Universal coverage, also, would make it easy to underwrite risk.

I was talking about loess insurance on a per-plan basis. Insurance should not pay for routine, expected costs; it should be there for the stuff that is more expensive, or that nobody saw coming. It is often pointed out that the administrative costs associated with Health Insurance are exorbidant, and they are; Insurance company's are GREAT risk evaluators; and poor administrators (the govt. is good at neither). The most efficient means of lowering costs (Obama said this in his speach, right) is the free market. We ought to put it to work for day to day healthcare expenses.

[ploto]

Just got my notice this week that my premium is going up 15%. I have never been paid out a penny by them. But I try to look at it this way- it means I am grateful that I have been healthy. I hate paying out so much, but I would rather NOT collect on this insurance policy.

[coyotes_geek]

Just got my notice this week that my premium is going up 15%.

Just wait until the government starts taxing your insurance provider to pay for Healthcare reform.

[hater]

Consumer choice in what insurance plan they buy - which will be approximately the same; NOT consumer choice/decion making authority where the costs are actually incurred - with the provider. THAT is the key.


you said purchasing decisions. you meant purchasing medical insurance decision. didn't you not?



Medical Care; and insurance. More and more they become, and by design with HR3200, commodities - the patients are warm bodies, not people. The government will require more and more to be paid for by the insurance plans, as various lobbies and special interest groups get there way...the actual patients are NOT the payors; so they are not given the respect given to someone who can take their business elsewhere;

this is already the case now, how is the reform going to change this??



doctors offices will be full ALL the time, so the business, pocketbook, incentive to live by the mantra "the customer is always right" will be non-existent. Doctor's offices often ALREADY act like they are somehow doing you a favor by giving you an appointment, don't they? It will get worse.


they are already full all the time. and the mantra you speak of is already non-existent. so again, how will it get worse??



First, I agree that everyone in this a country as wealthy as ours ought to have health coverage - so I am not talking about fewer people being covered. Universal coverage, also, would make it easy to underwrite risk.

I was talking about loess insurance on a per-plan basis. Insurance should not pay for routine, expected costs; it should be there for the stuff that is more expensive, or that nobody saw coming. It is often pointed out that the administrative costs associated with Health Insurance are exorbidant, and they are; Insurance company's are GREAT risk evaluators; and poor administrators (the govt. is good at neither). The most efficient means of lowering costs (Obama said this in his speach, right) is the free market. We ought to put it to work for day to day healthcare expenses.

this is an interesting point. but with the cost of health care in this country. I don't think it's possible. I dont' think I can even afford a treatment of a cold without health insurance. and I am not close to being poor.

[hater]

Just got my notice this week that my premium is going up 15%. I have never been paid out a penny by them. But I try to look at it this way- it means I am grateful that I have been healthy. I hate paying out so much, but I would rather NOT collect on this insurance policy.

once again, I was right.

[ploto]

Just wait until the government starts taxing your insurance provider to pay for Healthcare reform.

I would choose a public option.

[coyotes_geek]

I would choose a public option.

Doesn't matter. Everyone who can afford insurance now is going to have to pay more so that insurance can be provided to everyone else.

[hater]

Doesn't matter. Everyone who can afford insurance now is going to have to pay more so that insurance can be provided to everyone else.

is that true? could you provide a link please. and not to Fox

[SpurNation]

What about HOSPITALS!!! DOCTORS!!!! PHARMACEUTICALS!!!!! THOSE are the entities receiving the payments; but they aren't as easy to demonize, are they? For every insurance company not willing to pay for a treatment, there is a provider not willing to give it away.

Why is the profit of an insurance company obscene, but a 7 figure salary for a neurosurgeon not? I purport that NEITHER is inherently obscene; but that if we could bring some level of consumer control into the mix - we could improve cost, availability AND quality. HR 3200 will NOT do that; it will further seperate the consumer from purchasing decisions, and try to manage costs through regulation and fiat; a method that, inevitibly, will result in price controls, followed by rationing, followed by quality deterioration.

Less government, less insurance IS the solution; but that ain't what anyone in government (or the insurance co's) is proposing; surprise, surprise.

Exactly the point I made in an earlier thread.

Each entity involved in health care is a separate participant operating under it's own guidelines.

Each entity needs to be addressed as an individual bill regarding reform and justification. To role all into a single bill is inviting chaos that will allow some of these entities to operate status quo.

[101A]

this is an interesting point. but with the cost of health care in this country. I don't think it's possible. I dont' think I can even afford a treatment of a cold without health insurance. and I am not close to being poor.

You shouldn't go to the doctor if you have a cold, there's nothing they can do for you. J/K

Actually, the concept, and what I think would happen is costs for routine exams, etc...would become less expensive, not more. Anyone not old enough to remember 1984 doesn't realize that copays were invented then. Before that, EVERYONE had a deductible they had to meet every year before insurance would pay $ 1. The average person went to the doctor 1.5 times per year; now they go more than once PER MONTH. When they go, beyond the cost of the doctor's visit, they receive, usually, a prescription, and often a test or two. None of this additional care, studies have shown, do much to make people any more healthy - they just cost.

Doctor's visits would become more rare; and doctors would (gasp) compete for patients by publishing WHAT they charge for a routine office visit. Also, docs would brag about how they prescribe just-as-effective generic drugs, as opposed to the expensive, advertised fancy-ass drug. IT WOULD become important. Also, YOU would have more money in your pocket, because the cost of insurance would drop pretty significantly if utilization was curtailed.

If you think I have been arguing for the status quo, you are mistaken. The system is broken; I am in the middle of it; but the prescription to fix it offered up in Washington is more of what has gotten us to this point in the first place.

[CosmicCowboy]

How is forcing insurance companies to insure pre-existing conditions right? Basically they are reinforcing the concept of "don't buy insurance until you get sick".

Lets say you have lung cancer and the treatment is estimated to cost $250,000. If you buy coverage for this pre-existing condition and pay a premium of $1000 a month, who pays the balance? Obviously this cost will be split among all the customers...Is it fair that those that buy insurance to cover the eventuality that they might get sick should subsidize those that don't?

[coyotes_geek]

is that true? could you provide a link please. and not to Fox

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135080

Read the OP.

[coyotes_geek]

How is forcing insurance companies to insure pre-existing conditions right? Basically they are reinforcing the concept of "don't buy insurance until you get sick".

Lets say you have lung cancer and the treatment is estimated to cost $250,000. If you buy coverage for this pre-existing condition and pay a premium of $1000 a month, who pays the balance? Obviously this cost will be split among all the customers...Is it fair that those that buy insurance to cover the eventuality that they might get sick should subsidize those that don't?

If insurance coverage is made mandatory doesn't this problem take care of itself?

[101A]

I would choose a public option.

Let's do some word association:

Public Bus or Private Bus

Public Beach or Private Beach

Public Park or Private Park

Public Restroom or Private Restroom

Public Housing or Private Residence

Thanks for playing.

[jman3000]

How is forcing insurance companies to insure pre-existing conditions right? Basically they are reinforcing the concept of "don't buy insurance until you get sick".

Lets say you have lung cancer and the treatment is estimated to cost $250,000. If you buy coverage for this pre-existing condition and pay a premium of $1000 a month, who pays the balance? Obviously this cost will be split among all the customers...Is it fair that those that buy insurance to cover the eventuality that they might get sick should subsidize those that don't?

Except it'd be mandatory for you to have insurance in the first place. So there is no "until you get sick".

[hater]

Let's do some word association:

Public Bus or Private Bus

Public Beach or Private Beach

Public Park or Private Park

Public Restroom or Private Restroom

Public Housing or Private Residence

Thanks for playing.

except whether public or private insurance, we'd all be going to the same doctors/hospitals.

[101A]

How is forcing insurance companies to insure pre-existing conditions right? Basically they are reinforcing the concept of "don't buy insurance until you get sick".



Insurance companies don't fear this. As long as coverage is "universal", as in, everyone is paying a premium, or a premium is being paid on their behalf; the companies can rate the risk. The cost for pre-x will be spread among all of us; and then won't exist for all intent and purpose. Also, as has been mentioned, we are ALREADY paying for the care of people who don't have insurance.

[CosmicCowboy]

Except it'd be mandatory for you to have insurance in the first place. So there is no "until you get sick".

They are discussing approximately $900 per year "fines" for families that don't buy insurance. That's less than I pay per month for health care per family. If they force insurance companies to take pre-existing conditions at money losing rates it would be logical and rational to pay the fine and then just buy insurance if you got sick.

[101A]

except whether public or private insurance, we'd all be going to the same doctors/hospitals.


Not all of us.

http://comps.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/STK/STK004/RWC1042.jpg

[hater]

Not all of us.

http://comps.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/STK/STK004/RWC1042.jpg

Once again, you are talking about something that is already happening.

[coyotes_geek]

They are discussing approximately $900 per year "fines" for families that don't buy insurance. That's less than I pay per month for health care per family. If they force insurance companies to take pre-existing conditions at money losing rates it would be logical and rational to pay the fine and then just buy insurance if you got sick.

If we're going to make insurance companies take people with pre-existing conditions we also need to allow them to charge higher premiums to those people. That would somewhat mitigate this problem, but not entirely. You're right though, this is a loophole.

[101A]

Once again, you are talking about something that is already happening.

Again I am not supporting the status quo.

You seem to think that just because I am against what the Dems are offering up, I am against ALL changes in healthcare. Do you actually read what people write?

[CosmicCowboy]

If we're going to make insurance companies take people with pre-existing conditions we also need to allow them to charge higher premiums to those people. That would somewhat mitigate this problem, but not entirely. You're right though, this is a loophole.

If we allow insurance companies to charge premiums that would cover their cost there is no reason for a person with a pre-existing condition to buy insurance...they might as well pay the doctor/hospital themselves.

Again, the people that play by the rules will be subsidizing those that don't.

And yeah, I know that the $2000 I pay in property taxes every month (business and personal) is already partially going to health care for the uninsured but I'm pretty confident THOSE taxes won't go down if they pass a new health care bill...

[xrayzebra]

If we allow insurance companies to charge premiums that would cover their cost there is no reason for a person with a pre-existing condition to buy insurance...they might as well pay the doctor/hospital themselves.

Again, the people that play by the rules will be subsidizing those that don't.


Hey Cosmic, don't confuse these people with facts. It messes their mind
up for days on end. They wouldn't even know how to run a business like
you have for years. Economics to them is Uncle Sugar mailing them a
check and the rest of the folks paying for it.:bang

[hater]

Again I am not supporting the status quo.

You seem to think that just because I am against what the Dems are offering up, I am against ALL changes in healthcare. Do you actually read what people write?

yes I do. That is why I am pointing out you keep bringing up things that are already happening when criticizing the health reform.

[coyotes_geek]

If we allow insurance companies to charge premiums that would cover their cost there is no reason for a person with a pre-existing condition to buy insurance...they might as well pay the doctor/hospital themselves.

Again, the people that play by the rules will be subsidizing those that don't.

And yeah, I know that the $2000 I pay in property taxes every month (business and personal) is already partially going to health care for the uninsured but I'm pretty confident THOSE taxes won't go down if they pass a new health care bill...

I agree with you that you've got a valid concern. But to some extent the higher premiums you charge people who do sign up with pre-existing conditions will offset the defacto lower premiums they'd be paying via fines when they're uninsured. Yeah, I agree that some people are going to come out ahead. But that's how insurance works. Even if everybody has insurance those who filed claims are still going to come out ahead at the expense of those who don't.

[SpurNation]

Forcing people to pay for health insurance? How could this be accomplished?

Increasing medicare/medicaid deductions could be one way. But what about the millions of unemployed? How would they be participating in paying their own way?

A "health insurance" write off when filing your taxes? Those who have proof of insurance receive the deduction?

What about those who STILL would not have insurance when needing medical attention? They simply would be denied medical attention or provided care if signing over possessions?

How? How can this logistically be done?

[ploto]

Let's do some word association:

Public Bus or Private Bus

Public Beach or Private Beach

Public Park or Private Park

Public Restroom or Private Restroom

Public Housing or Private Residence

Thanks for playing.

I have ridden public buses many times and quite enjoy the state and federal public parks. I also do not believe that I have ever been to a private beach- only a public one.

[ChumpDumper]

Not all of us.

http://comps.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/STK/STK004/RWC1042.jpgI read they actually have the same health insurance as any federal employee -- of course they can buy different plans if they choose.

[baseline bum]

Let's do some word association:

Public Bus or Private Bus


Let's see. I'd take LA's MTA (the worst public bus I have ever ridden) over Greyhound (the only private bus I have ridden). In my experience the Greyhound station is the most disgusting building in each and every city it passes through.



Public Beach or Private Beach


Considering the property values right on the ocean, I'll take the public Huntington Beach I can go swimming or surfing in for free over having to pay millions to buy my own land which would almost certainly be at a place with far inferior waves and more pollution.



Public Park or Private Park


I'd take Yosemite, Kings Canyon, Sequoia, Mesa Verde, Joshua Tree, Big Bend, Yellowstone, Rocky Mountains, Glacier National Park, etc. over DisneyWorld or Fiesta Texas in a second.



Public Restroom or Private Restroom

Public Housing or Private Residence


OK, so you're batting .400.

[greyforest]

Looks to me that US spends as much per capita PUBLICLY as most other nations; but only covers half its population with that expenditure - the privately pays that much more again; your graph shows in no uncertain terms that the COST of healthcare in the United States; not specifically the funding mechanism to pay for it, is what is SO much higher than in other countries.

why do you think this is?

its a multitude of reasons actually, but i want to hear yours

[sabar]

Insurance wouldn't be any more affordable if it was non-profit and broke perfectly even. So throw that point out the window. It's not affordable because big pharma corps corner the drug market and monopolize their product at insane prices. $400 for 20 brand name pills? When the stuff is generic the docs will still push the brand name on you. Just go to walgreens and check out the price differential between Tylenol and generic acetaminophen. Now scale the prices up and you have the medical industry.

The other problem are surgeries and transplants that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars that people are somehow obligated to have in their lives. For some reason people have to be on the bleeding edge of technology and just can't die when their time is up.

Blaming insurance is just the cool thing to do when people themselves are to blame. If retards stopped getting MRIs and blood tests for the common cold, then care would cost less. People place a massive demand (health) on very little supply (doctors) with their frequent visits.

I'm also curious how a company isn't supposed to bleed cash when they allow insurance with pre-existing conditions. Imagine you take out a loan of a few million and create your awesome healthcare corp that makes no profit and insures cancer patients and smokers. How exactly do you plan to stay afloat? Your only option are massive gov't subsidies, so your kickass healthcare just ends up being more income tax.

[sabar]

same thing you do when private company wrongs you.

Stop paying taxes and go to federal prison for the rest of your life?

While I dislike big corporations, they don't have the power to imprison or execute you. Yet.

[boutons_deux]

"they don't have the power to ... execute you"

US govt hires for-profit killers to execute "enemies".

[101A]

why do you think this is?

its a multitude of reasons actually, but i want to hear yours

Because the two principal ways of paying for medical care are more concerned with simply getting a bill paid, and moving on, than in actually making sure that the treatment being received is necessary and "affordable". Because the patient is NOT responsible for the bill; a third party, with deep pockets is; because we have put doctors on a pedestal in this country that somehow affords them demigod status; and what they get paid, is what they deserve; but MOST importantly, and by far the most expensive piece of our health care puzzle is what occurs during the final weeks/months of a person's life. THEN, in a desperate attempt to save a loved one's (or oneself's) life, we order EVERYTHING to be done to POSSIBLY, if not save, at least extend that life. That stuff is VERY expensive, and except for the most experimental, is covered by both insurance companies, and Medicare. Chemo, radiation, organ transplants - every type of surgery in the book; expensive drugs - expensive devices, and expensive docs - so expensive, that the majority of most people's health care expenses occur in the last 6 months of life.

Now, the individual that is having these "heroic" measures performed on them seldom benefits, but, ultimately, society does. Each person becomes a guinea pig of sorts, for what works, and what doesn't - so, ultimately, advances are made, and lives are extended. THAT data is then published, and spread worldwide -to help everyone.

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama gets this; though end of life counseling is certainly NOT a death panel; it could save gazillions of dollars if people could internalize EXACTLY how little chance they had of surviving whatever is was that was about to kill them, and that the stuff different people wanted to do to (for) them was going to make was little time they had left that much more miserable. If people would take that, and believe it, and choose NOT to do some of that stuff, we would all save money. Hoever, I know from (quite a bit) of experience, that even with that type of counseling; that basic instinct to survive is a VERY strong one, and, given a choice, most people want everything possible done, no matter how long the odds.

[mogrovejo]

Forcing people to pay for health insurance? How could this be accomplished?

The correct question is why should that be a goal to be accomplished in a free society.

FikcOmQZgf8

[mogrovejo]

capitalism makes sense for a lot of things, but health insurance? there's a ridiculous conflict of interest there.

Why? I think one can live longer without a doctor than without food.

Again, what you're saying about health care was said about food for centuries: very scarce resource with high demand (and therefore with a high price).