Obama Kills Missile Defense Plan

[Cry Havoc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_re_eu/eu_eastern_europe_missile_defense

PRAGUE – Czechs and Poles expressed rancor and relief Thursday that President Barack Obama had scrapped plans for a U.S. missile defense shield on their territories, reflecting deep divisions over a proposal that had angered Russia.

NATO's new chief hailed the move as "a positive step" and a Russian analyst said Obama's decision will increase the chances that Russia will cooperate more closely with the United States in the heated dispute over Iran's nuclear program.

Ex-leaders in the Czech Republic and Poland bristled at Obama's reversal, saying it reinforced a growing impression that Washington no longer views the region as indispensable to U.S. and European security interests. Yet many ordinary citizens who had been skeptical of the shield's benefits expressed relief that the system wouldn't be built on their soil.

"It is a big victory for the Czech Republic. We are happy that we will be able to continue to live in our beautiful country without the presence of foreign soldiers," said Jan Tamas, an activist who had organized numerous protests.

Jiri Paroubek, chairman of the Social Democrats and a major missile defense opponent, also called it "excellent news."

The two countries' governments had endorsed the plan to put 10 interceptor rockets in Poland and a radar system in the Czech Republic. The Bush administration had pitched the system as a strategic defense to counter a perceived threat from Iran.

But the U.S. plan had deeply angered Russia, which expressed outrage that missiles would be stationed so close to its borders.

Czech Prime Minister Jan Fischer announced Thursday that Obama phoned him overnight to say that "his government is pulling out of plans to build a missile defense radar on Czech territory."

Fischer told reporters that Obama assured him that the "strategic cooperation" between the Czech Republic and the U.S. would continue, and that Washington considers the Czechs among its closest allies.

In Warsaw, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said Obama assured him in a phone call Thursday that U.S. plans to alter the missile defense project will not hurt Poland's security.

Tusk quoted Obama as saying the "proposal of an alternative strategy should not affect the security of Poland" or of Europe. He refused to elaborate pending Obama's announcement of the decision.

Fischer said after a review of the missile defense system, the U.S. now considers the threat of an attack using short- and mid-range missiles greater than one using long-range rockets.

"That's what the Americans assessed as the most serious threat" and Obama's decision was based on that, he told reporters.

Scrapping missile defense comes as a huge setback to many Polish and Czech leaders, who viewed it as a way to strengthen their military ties with the U.S. as a form of defense against a resurgent Russia.

Fears of Moscow run especially deep in Poland, highlighted by a key anniversary Thursday. Exactly 70 years ago — on Sept. 17, 1939 — Poland was invaded by the Soviet Union at the start of World War II.

Thursday's decision is another sign that "the Americans are not interested in this territory as they were before," said Mirek Topolanek, a former Czech prime minister whose government signed treaties with the United States to set up the shield.

"It's not good," said former Polish president and Solidarity leader Lech Walesa.

"I can see what kind of policy the Obama administration is pursuing towards this part of Europe," Walesa said. "The way we are being approached needs to change."

Aleksander Szczyglo, head of Poland's National Security Office, characterized the change as a "defeat primarily of American long-distance thinking about the situation in this part of Europe."

Czech Foreign Minister Jan Kohout said "we were assured" that the U.S. was taking steps that should "improve security of NATO members, including the Czech Republic."

In Brussels, NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said he talked Thursday with the top American envoy to NATO about the changes to the missile defense plan and all NATO members would be briefed later in the day.

"It is my clear impression that the American plan on missile defense will involve NATO .... to a higher degree in the future," Fogh Rasmussen told reporters. "This is a positive step in the direction of an inclusive and transparent process, which I also think is in the interest of ... the NATO alliance."

Russia was livid over the prospect of having U.S. interceptor rockets in countries so close by, and the Obama administration has sought to improve strained ties with the Kremlin. Obama is scheduled to meet Russian President Dmitry Medvedev next week as the two attend the U.N. General Assembly in New York.

"The U.S. president's decision is a well-thought out and systematic one," said Konstantin Kosachev, head of the foreign affairs committee in the State Duma, the lower house of the Russian parliament. "It reflects understanding that any security measure can't be built entirely on the basis of one nation."

"Now we can talk about restoration of the strategic partnership between Russia and the United States," Kosachev added.

Alexei Arbatov, head of the Russian Academy of Science's Center for International Security, said Thursday the U.S. was giving in on missile defense to get more cooperation from Russia on Iran.

"The United States is reckoning that by rejecting the missile defense system or putting it off to the far future, Russia will be inclined together with the United States to take a harder line on sanctions against Iran," he said.

Obama took office undecided about the European system and said he would study it.

In a speech in April in Prague, Obama said Washington would proceed with developing the system as long as Iran posed a threat to U.S. and European security. But a top military leader, Marine Gen. James Cartwright, recently suggested the U.S. may have underestimated how long it would take Iran to develop long-range missiles.

The Czech government had stood behind the planned radar system despite fierce opposition from the public. Some critics feared the country would be targeted by terrorists if it agreed to host the radar system, which was planned for the Brdy military installation 90 kilometers (55 miles) southwest of Prague, the capital.

The decision to scrap the plan is sure to have future consequences for U.S. relations with eastern Europe.

"If the administration approaches us in the future with any request, I would be strongly against it," said Jan Vidim, a lawmaker with Czech Republic's conservative Civic Democratic Party, which supported the missile defense plan.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm ok with this. If the Czechs don't want us there, we shouldn't force our way in. Of course, it's not an easy decision when the majority of the public says no and the government says yes, but I still feel it's an adequate decision.

[DMX7]

I don't give a fuck about the Czech Republic. We need to start looking out for us and stop pissing off states that can actually hurt us, like Russia.

[ChumpDumper]

Russia would never nuke Poland -- unless they had a missile defense system.

[symple19]

This is moronic. Gates said that there would be an emphasis instead on ship based systems, which is fine so long as you keep the land based component. You don't go around making long term agreements and then backing out. Europe is an old place with a long memory, and this particular part has recently undergone a long, brutal domination by formerly Soviet Russia. With Putin invading Georgia last summer over trumped up bullshit, it's more important now than ever to show our eastern European allies that we don't fear the Russians, and will move forward with agreements regardless of Russian crying. This whole defense system may have been about the Iranian threat, but there is always going to be an element that involves the Russians when it's in their former sphere of influence. This will rightly be perceived in Poland and the Czech Republic as backing down to the Russians.

There must be a back room deal going down somewhere between us and the Russians. Perhaps the recent news that the Russians were going to help Chavez with a, "peaceful civilian Nuclear program", had something to do with it. Just imagine that nut-job with a nuclear program.

[Cry Havoc]

This is moronic. Gates said that there would be an emphasis instead on ship based systems, which is fine so long as you keep the land based component. You don't go around making long term agreements and then backing out. Europe is an old place with a long memory, and this particular part has recently undergone a long, brutal domination by formerly Soviet Russia. With Putin invading Georgia last summer over trumped up bullshit, it's more important now than ever to show our eastern European allies that we don't fear the Russians, and will move forward with agreements regardless of Russian crying. This whole defense system may have been about the Iranian threat, but there is always going to be an element that involves the Russians when it's in their former sphere of influence. This will rightly be perceived in Poland and the Czech Republic as backing down to the Russians.

There must be a back room deal going down somewhere between us and the Russians. Perhaps the recent news that the Russians were going to help Chavez with a, "peaceful civilian Nuclear program", had something to do with it. Just imagine that nut-job with a nuclear program.

If Russia ever fired ICBMs at Poland or the Czechs, the entire EU would go to war against them. We wouldn't have to do a thing. It's not our job to police Europe, especially not when they can more than fend for themselves now.

Instead of spending money abroad, and pissing everyone off, why shouldn't we focus on more of our domestic problems? How does building an anti-missile program that will never be used half a world away help our economy?

[coyotes_geek]

If Russia ever fired ICBMs at Poland or the Czechs, the entire EU would go to war against them. We wouldn't have to do a thing. It's not our job to police Europe, especially not when they can more than fend for themselves now.

Pretty much where I come out on this. I'm fine with Obama dumping the program.

[Winehole23]

If Russia ever fired ICBMs at Poland or the Czechs, the entire EU would go to war against them. We wouldn't have to do a thing. It's not our job to police Europe, especially not when they can more than fend for themselves now.No more Nazis. No more Red Hordes.

No more US subsidizing European defense.

[DarkReign]

If Russia ever fired ICBMs at Poland or the Czechs, the entire EU would go to war against them. We wouldn't have to do a thing. It's not our job to police Europe, especially not when they can more than fend for themselves now.

/argument

Nicely put.

[CosmicCowboy]

Good way to celebrate the 70th anniversary of Russia invading Poland.

[spursncowboys]

Stratfor has a good book titled "the Next 100 Years", he has some really good articles about why this is bad for America in the next 20 to 50 to 100 years. I'll look for it. The book is atleast three years old and is not political.

[hope4dopes]

If Russia ever fired ICBMs at Poland or the Czechs, the entire EU would go to war against them. We wouldn't have to do a thing. It's not our job to police Europe, especially not when they can more than fend for themselves now.

Instead of spending money abroad, and pissing everyone off, why shouldn't we focus on more of our domestic problems? How does building an anti-missile program that will never be used half a world away help our economy?

Yeah europe would stand up together and fight back just like they did with Hitler.

[MiamiHeat]

If Russia ever fired ICBMs at Poland or the Czechs, the entire EU would go to war against them. We wouldn't have to do a thing. It's not our job to police Europe, especially not when they can more than fend for themselves now.

Instead of spending money abroad, and pissing everyone off, why shouldn't we focus on more of our domestic problems? How does building an anti-missile program that will never be used half a world away help our economy?

Brother, I could not have said it better.

Let's stop pissing people off and wasting tax money. We got shit to do here at home.

[spursncowboys]

Great 8 minutes. No politics QWRtuADJd-o&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=37118B43C70B7976

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:tu Nothing like stabbing your allies in the back on the 70th anniversary of them getting invaded. What a wuss we have in the Oval Office.

Oh, and it's not just about this. Next up will be us turning our back on the likes Taiwan, Israel, and probably South Korea.

[Nbadan]

Who are we stabbing in the back again? What did Dubya do when Russia invaded a sovereign nation-state?

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah europe would stand up together and fight back just like they did with Hitler.

You're right, the situations are exactly the same. Germany is one dictator away from ruling all of Europe again. Russia has a military and economy poised on world domination. They're even ahead of the U.S. in science! :lol


:tu Nothing like stabbing your allies in the back on the 70th anniversary of them getting invaded. What a wuss we have in the Oval Office.

Oh, and it's not just about this. Next up will be us turning our back on the likes Taiwan, Israel, and probably South Korea.

So I guess the fact that NO ONE in the EU wants this missile defense system has anything to do with it? Does the fact that the Czech Republic and Poland are celebrating the relaxation of U.S. policy here have anything to do with the situation?

For our president stabbing them in the back, they're certainly doing a lot of celebrating about it.

[Nbadan]

You're right, the situations are exactly the same. Germany is one dictator away from ruling all of Europe again.

....we canceled a missile defense system that didn't work - Yippie!

[exstatic]

good way to celebrate the 70th anniversary of Germany invading poland.

fify

[LnGrrrR]

Yeah europe would stand up together and fight back just like they did with Hitler.

Given your example, we don't need missile defense, right? We can just take over when stuff goes bad. It worked well last time. Thanks for proving this was a good move Micca!

[LnGrrrR]

:tu Nothing like stabbing your allies in the back on the 70th anniversary of them getting invaded. What a wuss we have in the Oval Office.

Oh, and it's not just about this. Next up will be us turning our back on the likes Taiwan, Israel, and probably South Korea.

How is it stabbing them in the back when the majority of citizens don't want the program there?

[exstatic]

Yeah europe would stand up together and fight back just like they did with Hitler.

You're right. The situations are identical! The Balkanized Europe of the 30s is EXACTLY the same as the mono-block of the EU that is essentially one country today!

[doobs]

fify

You're not really that stupid, are you?

[coyotes_geek]

fify

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

[exstatic]

You're not really that stupid, are you?

Stupid? I'm not the one that said Russia invaded Poland in 1939, was I? Was the word Blitzkreig coined to show the speed and efficiency of the Russian invasion of Poland? Nope. They were politically complicit, but that's not really the same thing at all as an invasion.

[exstatic]

Germany went in, under cover of the non-aggression pact, wiped the floor with the Poles, rolled over them in a couple of days, then occupied the capital, and probably 75-80% of the country. Russia, after this was all over, occupied a pre-agreed upon small corridor of the Eastern part of the former Poland, and you think they fucking invaded Poland.

[coyotes_geek]

Stupid? I'm not the one that said Russia invaded Poland in 1939, was I? Was the word Blitzkreig coined to show the speed and efficiency of the Russian invasion of Poland? Nope. They were politically complicit, but that's not really the same thing at all as an invasion.

The invasion was planned by Stalin, Kliment Voroshilov, Boris Shaposhnikov, and Grigory Kulik. A few hours before it began, already on September 17, 1939, at 2 a.m., Stalin, with Molotov and Voroshilov, informed German ambassador in Moscow, Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg, that Soviet troops would soon cross the border. Stalin said: "At 6 a.m., four hours from now, the Red Army will cross into Poland".[29]

The Red Army entered the eastern regions of Poland with seven field armies and between 450,000 and 1,000,000 troops.[4] These were deployed on two fronts: the Belarusian Front under Mikhail Kovalyov, and the Ukrainian Front under Semyon Timoshenko.[4]

[MannyIsGod]

:tu Nothing like stabbing your allies in the back on the 70th anniversary of them getting invaded. What a wuss we have in the Oval Office.

Oh, and it's not just about this. Next up will be us turning our back on the likes Taiwan, Israel, and probably South Korea.

God one could only hope. Imagine that, other countries being responsible for themselves. Healthcare isn't a right for American citizens but god damn it the rest of the world has a right to security paid for by us. Wonder why this shit never comes up when discussing the deficit?

[exstatic]

I'm sure Poland felt really "invaded" by Russia at the end of 1939. :lol

Regardless of the nitpicking of history, we already have a European missile defense system in place. It resides in silos in the Dakotas and Montana, and is all we'll ever need to keep Russia out of the EU. Anything else is probably ineffective, since it would be made today, redundant, and a defense contractor boondoggle.

[exstatic]

God one could only hope. Imagine that, other countries being responsible for themselves. Healthcare isn't a right for American citizens but god damn it the rest of the world has a right to security paid for by us. Wonder why this shit never comes up when discussing the deficit?

That.

[coyotes_geek]

I'm sure Poland felt really "invaded" by Russia at the end of 1939. :lol

Seventy years after the fact it sure looks like Poland feels like they got invaded. But I'm sure you know their history much better than they do.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/press/artykul115917_poles_want_strong_1939_soviet_invasi on_resolution_.html

[doobs]

I'm sure Poland felt really "invaded" by Russia at the end of 1939. :lol

Regardless of the nitpicking of history, we already have a European missile defense system in place. It resides in silos in the Dakotas and Montana, and is all we'll ever need to keep Russia out of the EU. Anything else is probably ineffective, since it would be made today, redundant, and a defense contractor boondoggle.

"Nitpicking"? It's pretty simple, you were wrong.

[symple19]

Not surprising to see that the hard lefty's in here know nothing of geopolitics.

What most of you fail to understand is that there is a constant pissing contest going on in this particular region between us and the Russians. The missile defense system had nothing to do with deterring Russian ICBMs, and everything to do with showing our new NATO friends that we have a long standing interest in helping to defend them. Symbology, if you will. These two countries, in their various forms over time, were getting invaded by the Russians before the first settler ever stepped on American soil. And like I said, They have a long memory. Russia continues to attempt to exert influence over this area, an area that history has proven time and again to be one of the first to succumb to the horrors of war between the West and the East. If you think Putin and his new Oligarchy have no ambitions, whether economic or militarily, you are sadly mistaken. The only reason the Russians have calmed down of late is because their oil-dependent economy has collapsed in the on-going worldwide recession. The EU is, and will continue to be powerless to be a hedge against the Russians because they are so dependent on them for their oil. Thus, it falls to us to do this job.

The last few times we acted in an isolationist manner a couple wars broke out you guys may have heard of. WW1 and WW2.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

MOSCOW, Sept 17 (Reuters) - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin will meet several top U.S. executives on Friday, including General Electric Co (GE.N (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=GE.N)) and Morgan Stanley (MS.N (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=MS.N)), the Russian government said on Thursday.
Putin's meetings with top Western executives are usually a precursor of major business deals. Earlier this year oil majors Total (TOTF.PA (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=TOTF.PA)) and Royal Dutch/Shell (RDSa.L (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=RDSa.L)) announced plans to expand in Russia at meetings with Putin.
Talks with the U.S. firms follow a U.S. government decision to halt the deployment of a missile shield defence system in Europe, a move received positively by the Russian government. [ID:nLH510988]
The press service said Putin would meet David Bonderman, founding partner of one of the world's largest private equity firms, TPG [TPG.UL], and the chief executive of General Electric Co (GE.N (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=GE.N)), Jeff Immelt.
Putin will meet the executives in Russia's Black Sea resort of Sochi, which is hosting an investment forum. He will also hold talks with John Mack, who is to quit as CEO of Morgan Stanley (MS.N (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=MS.N)) at the start of 2010.
Last week, sources told Reuters that TPG, formerly known as Texas Pacific Group, and the private equity arm of Russian state bank VTB (VTBR.MM (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=VTBR.MM)) bought a large stake in Russian hypermarket chain Lenta. [ID:nL7551568]
General Electric has announced plans to build new plants in Russia, while Morgan Stanley has had a continuous investment banking presence in the country since 1994. [ID:nLH949967] (Reporting by Gleb Bryanski; writing by Vladimir Soldatkin; editing by Simon Jessop)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

PRAGUE (Reuters) - Czech power group CEZ said on Monday it signed a contract with General Electric to supply wind turbines for its 600 megawatt, 1.1 billion euro ($1.6 billion) project in Romania -- the largest of its kind in Europe.
The planned two-stage wind farm will be around twice the size of the next biggest onshore wind farm in Europe and marks one of the largest recent foreign investments in European Union newcomer Romania.
Just over half the wind park is expected to come on line in 2010 and the rest a year later. GE is supplying the turbines for the initial stage.
GE will also supply 101 turbines for the second stage of the project that will generate 252.5 MW of the farm's planned total output, CEZ said in a statement. The wind park is aimed at offsetting emissions from CEZ's dirtier coal-fired power plants.
Eastern Europe, which relies mainly on coal and nuclear energy for its electricity production, is lagging behind its western neighbors in meeting EU renewable energy goals.
CEZ, central Europe's largest listed company, aims to boost spending on renewable energy due to an EU climate package proposal expected to push up costs for productions from fossil fuels starting in 2013.
The bloc wants 20 percent of its energy sourced from renewables by 2020, from under 10 percent now. It also wants to reduce dependency on Russian gas imports, particularly after recent tension over gas supplies between Russia and Ukraine.
Investors are drawn to Romania where they find a sympathetic ear from government eager for renewable power plants to bring them closer to EU goals while at the same time replacing outdated communist-era energy infrastructure.

[spursncowboys]

PRAGUE (Reuters) - Czech power group CEZ said on Monday it signed a contract with General Electric to supply wind turbines for its 600 megawatt, 1.1 billion euro ($1.6 billion) project in Romania -- the largest of its kind in Europe.
The planned two-stage wind farm will be around twice the size of the next biggest onshore wind farm in Europe and marks one of the largest recent foreign investments in European Union newcomer Romania.
Just over half the wind park is expected to come on line in 2010 and the rest a year later. GE is supplying the turbines for the initial stage.
GE will also supply 101 turbines for the second stage of the project that will generate 252.5 MW of the farm's planned total output, CEZ said in a statement. The wind park is aimed at offsetting emissions from CEZ's dirtier coal-fired power plants.
Eastern Europe, which relies mainly on coal and nuclear energy for its electricity production, is lagging behind its western neighbors in meeting EU renewable energy goals.
CEZ, central Europe's largest listed company, aims to boost spending on renewable energy due to an EU climate package proposal expected to push up costs for productions from fossil fuels starting in 2013.
The bloc wants 20 percent of its energy sourced from renewables by 2020, from under 10 percent now. It also wants to reduce dependency on Russian gas imports, particularly after recent tension over gas supplies between Russia and Ukraine.
Investors are drawn to Romania where they find a sympathetic ear from government eager for renewable power plants to bring them closer to EU goals while at the same time replacing outdated communist-era energy infrastructure.
Let the Oligopoly begin. In the name of help.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

yesterday's Blackwater and Halliburton
today's ACORN and GE

........but blackwater is still being employed by our government.

[clambake]

yesterday's Blackwater and Halliburton
today's ACORN and GE

........but blackwater is still being employed by our government.

blackwater bad now.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

blackwater bad now.
oh that's right. we didn't care before. why care now. got it.

[spursncowboys]

Blackwater was fighting terrorists. YOu know freedom fighters. the poor Iraqis were being attacked by these horrible Blackwater ppl.

[clambake]

oh that's right. we didn't care before.
right, you didn't care before.

why care now. got it.
you don't. but you brought it up.

[Cry Havoc]

Not surprising to see that the hard lefty's in here know nothing of geopolitics.

It's not surprising to see "righties" attempt to change the subject by listing something that happened 80 years ago, and then fixating on that, rather than actually discussing the issue in which they have very little ground to stand on.

Not surprising to see hard "righties" in here change the subject when they are unable to make a point and then generalize one individual to the entire group as proof they are right about an issue that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

[coyotes_geek]

PRAGUE (Reuters) - Czech power group CEZ said on Monday it signed a contract with General Electric to supply wind turbines for its 600 megawatt, 1.1 billion euro ($1.6 billion) project in Romania -- the largest of its kind in Europe.
The planned two-stage wind farm will be around twice the size of the next biggest onshore wind farm in Europe and marks one of the largest recent foreign investments in European Union newcomer Romania.
Just over half the wind park is expected to come on line in 2010 and the rest a year later. GE is supplying the turbines for the initial stage.
GE will also supply 101 turbines for the second stage of the project that will generate 252.5 MW of the farm's planned total output, CEZ said in a statement. The wind park is aimed at offsetting emissions from CEZ's dirtier coal-fired power plants.
Eastern Europe, which relies mainly on coal and nuclear energy for its electricity production, is lagging behind its western neighbors in meeting EU renewable energy goals.
CEZ, central Europe's largest listed company, aims to boost spending on renewable energy due to an EU climate package proposal expected to push up costs for productions from fossil fuels starting in 2013.
The bloc wants 20 percent of its energy sourced from renewables by 2020, from under 10 percent now. It also wants to reduce dependency on Russian gas imports, particularly after recent tension over gas supplies between Russia and Ukraine.
Investors are drawn to Romania where they find a sympathetic ear from government eager for renewable power plants to bring them closer to EU goals while at the same time replacing outdated communist-era energy infrastructure.

I don't get the relevance.

[Cry Havoc]

I don't get the relevance.

There are tensions between the Czech Republic and Russia! They need a missile defense program! Tensions inevitably lead to thermonuclear war! :lol

[doobs]

It's not surprising to see "righties" attempt to change the subject by listing something that happened 80 years ago, and then fixating on that, rather than actually discussing the issue in which they have very little ground to stand on.

Not surprising to see hard "righties" in here change the subject when they are unable to make a point and then generalize one individual to the entire group as proof they are right about an issue that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

It was 70 years ago. Not that I'm fixating or anything!

[coyotes_geek]

There are tensions between the Czech Republic and Russia! They need a missile defense program! Tensions inevitably lead to thermonuclear war! :lol

Well then, props to GE for figuring out how to make a buck before europe self destructs. Again.

[clambake]

Well then, props to GE for figuring out how to make a buck before europe self destructs. Again.

so....without this europe is going to self destruct?

[coyotes_geek]

so....without this europe is going to self destruct?

That's a question for VLE. I have no idea what GE selling wind turbines to a Czech utility has to do with Obama cancelling a missle defense system against the Czech government's wishes.

[LnGrrrR]

The last few times we acted in an isolationist manner a couple wars broke out you guys may have heard of. WW1 and WW2.

So we WEREN'T isolationist before WW1 and WW2, and only us BECOMING isolationist before those periods is what caused those wars? That's what you're saying?

[clambake]

That's a question for VLE. I have no idea what GE selling wind turbines to a Czech utility has to do with Obama cancelling a missle defense system against the Czech government's wishes.

maybe GE should carve a "B" on their face.

[MannyIsGod]

Not surprising to see that the hard lefty's in here know nothing of geopolitics.

What most of you fail to understand is that there is a constant pissing contest going on in this particular region between us and the Russians. The missile defense system had nothing to do with deterring Russian ICBMs, and everything to do with showing our new NATO friends that we have a long standing interest in helping to defend them. Symbology, if you will. These two countries, in their various forms over time, were getting invaded by the Russians before the first settler ever stepped on American soil. And like I said, They have a long memory. Russia continues to attempt to exert influence over this area, an area that history has proven time and again to be one of the first to succumb to the horrors of war between the West and the East. If you think Putin and his new Oligarchy have no ambitions, whether economic or militarily, you are sadly mistaken. The only reason the Russians have calmed down of late is because their oil-dependent economy has collapsed in the on-going worldwide recession. The EU is, and will continue to be powerless to be a hedge against the Russians because they are so dependent on them for their oil. Thus, it falls to us to do this job.

The last few times we acted in an isolationist manner a couple wars broke out you guys may have heard of. WW1 and WW2.

Yeah, I guess its you who knows a lot about geopolitics. Tons.

[coyotes_geek]

maybe GE should carve a "B" on their face.

If it will help them sell more turbines, then absolutely.

[ChumpDumper]

The missile defense system had nothing to do with deterring Russian ICBMs, and everything to do with showing our new NATO friends that we have a long standing interest in helping to defend them.The fact that they are in NATO in the first place shows them that.

[symple19]

The quote on isolationism was a general response to all of the people in here saying ridiculous things like, "fuck em, who cares" "we should just worry about ourselves" etc.

As for being in NATO, do you think the Brits or Germans or whomever are spending any money or overtly showing any tangible military commitment inside those countries? I highly doubt it. Most NATO forces other than ours are pitifully small and under-funded when compared to the Russian military. The Russians currently have over a million active troops that can be brought up to 4+ million in a matter of a few months. That dwarfs what all of European NATO can muster combined. Add in the amount of Tanks/Navy/Airpower and it's even more overwhelming. So yes, it is up to us to flex our muscles in that area.

Next, do you think the Russians were really worried about their security because of a purely defensive missile system? Why would they so vehemently oppose our efforts there? Because if they can wrest this concession from us than they can use it as diplomatic ammunition against Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltics, and many of the "Stan" countries where we are trying to gain influence and business opportunities. It makes the US appear weak. Laugh about that if you will, but so much of diplomacy is all about appearances. This is why backing out of this deal is so bad. None of this was ever really about military matters, but more about influence beyond Czech and Poland. Influence leads to business opportunities, or better bases to re-supply Afghanistan, or airspace rights. It could mean a favorable vote in the UN, or the turning over of an international fugitive. It could mean the lowering of Tariffs on US products, and on and on. The same goes for the Russians. They won this round. Hopefully they won't win the next.

[MannyIsGod]

Purely defensive missile system huh? I can't believe you say shit like this after you scolded the rest of the forum for not knowing shit about geopolitics. A purely defensive system can have serious implications on the concept of MAD which would have serious geopolitical consequences, don't you think?

And the Russian military has always had superior numubers. They've had a philosophy where they take cheap equipment but more of it. And they've never been as good as feared. You need look no further back than the Georgian invasion to take stock of that. They didn't fare so well against a minor state because they're not very fucking good. So please spare me the fear mongering about a giant red invasion coming across eastern Europe because its not 1954, Mr. Geopolitics.

You want to know what makes the US look weak? Projecting our power further than we can and then having the rest of the world realize it. The fact that we're so bogged down in 2 Asian countries right now and that our military can't respond anywhere else is what makes us seem week. Acting as though we give a shit about Georgia and then being a bitch when it comes to any action makes us seem weak. The point isn't to pick more fights to prove yourself, the point is to STOP PICKING FUCKING FIGHTS.

Its funny though, because your language reminds me a lot of imperialism. Ah yes, our polish and czech colonies will lead to some great new markets. Lets go put military hardware everywhere so McDonalds and McDonald Douglas can both be happy.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

As long as this gives us some kind of advantage in the Afghan war, I'm for it. Seems like a pretty solid chip to give up for nothing, though. I don't very much like the timing, on the anniversy of invasion.

Fact is, the people of those nations did not want this, and the people will see Obama in an even better light after this.

Whoever mentioned cutting the deficit by reducing our obligations abroad is spot on. I'm tired of the US trying to profit off of a world that was fucked up by the UK and France, tired of them trying to hold still a world that will always be fluid and ever-changing, and tired of them doing it all on the back of US taxpayers. I'd rather the US have a tax rebate for fags getting married than making sure precious Israel has cheap access to bad ass military equipment.

BTW, it would be impossible for any great power in the world today to truly be isolationist in the sense that most use it, ie pre WW2.

[spursncowboys]

russia pushes its way back into ukraine


stratfor



russian president dmitri medvedev blasted his ukrainian counterpart, viktor yushchenko, on tuesday, blaming him for creating the worst strain in russo-ukrainian relations since the fall of the soviet union. In a video message posted to his widely read blog and distributed by the kremlin, medvedev emphasized just how bad relations have become.
That relations between moscow and kiev are frayed is not news to anyone. The disconnect started with the 2004 orange revolution, which brought yushchenko to power, and has continued with his government's efforts to join western alliances like nato and support for other former soviet states that hoped to break with moscow. Ukraine also has attempted to expel symbols of russian influence, such as its black sea fleet, from the country. The deteriorated relationship was emphasized in both 2006 and 2009 also, when russian energy supplies to ukraine were shut off - greatly impacting european customers downstream also.
But medvedev's message was very clear in blaming yushchenko - not ukraine as a whole - for the poor relations. Medvedev said t he was certain a new era would soon begin, referring to the shift in public sentiment over the past few years. Since the orange revolution, yushchenko's popularity has nearly disappeared. More russia-friendly political figures, like former prime minister viktor yanukovich, are currently leading in polls - while yushchenko's approval rating is barely in the single digits. With presidential elections just four months away, it seems likely that a pro-russian regime will soon retake the helm in kiev.
But while this would make moscow's goals in the region easier to achieve, it would simply be a shift in personalities. And russia is taking a much deeper and more thorough approach to ensuring ukraine remains a part of its sphere of influence.
ukraine has always been the most important country in russia's border regions for moscow to control. To put it plainly, without that control, russia cannot maintain strategic coherence and continue on its path of returning to great power status. Ukraine holds the key to russia's defense and survival. To begin, ukraine is home to the largest russian community outside of russia, is fully integrated into russia's industrial and agricultural heartland and is the key transit point between russia and europe. Given its location, russia cannot project power politically or militarily into the north caucasus, the black sea or eastern europe unless it controls ukraine. In short, russia would be economically crippled and nearly cut off from the rest of europe without ukraine.
This has made ukraine the top state for russia to keep in its orbit. But its importance has forced russia to take a more subtle approach than it did with georgia. Moscow is pursuing a long-term set of assimilation programs inside ukraine to ensure that the country is more firmly tied to russia's future. This was highlighted in medvedev's video statement, in which he said the ties between russia and ukraine were those of brothers and quoted gogol, saying, "there are no bonds more sacred than the bonds of brotherhood."
this does not mean moscow is trying to create a new soviet union with ukraine, but instead is trying to reintegrate ukraine, formally or informally, back into russia. Russia would not treat ukraine the way it does georgia - as a conquered state - or simply as part of a union, as it did during the soviet era, but instead as a province that is important to moscow and integrated into russia.
At a grassroots level, moscow has been spreading pro-russian ideology across ukraine - not just among the russian citizens there. This was seen in recent weeks with russian orthodox patriarch kirill i's ten-day visit to ukraine, promoting a common historical and spiritual heritage. Medvedev also has announced plans to open russian cultural centers across ukraine to "support their national culture."
this provides a strong foundation for the pro-russian forces that seem to be coming back into power in kiev. But by re-instilling the idea of a common ukrainian-russian culture, moscow ensures that no matter who comes to power, the people of the country for the most part will be faithful to russia. This is a much more permanent way to ensure that the cornerstone to russian foreign policy remains under moscow's control.

a stratfor (http://www.stratfor.com/) intelligence report.

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2009/08/12/russia_pushes_its_way_back_into_ukraine_97043.html

[Shastafarian]

"russia pushes its way back into ukraine"

Politically. I don't think it's possible to shoot down words with a missile defense system.

[xeromass]

Most NATO forces other than ours are pitifully small and under-funded when compared to the Russian military. The Russians currently have over a million active troops that can be brought up to 4+ million in a matter of a few months. That dwarfs what all of European NATO can muster combined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_military#Size_of_European_militaries

If you exclude NATO member Turkey Europe musters together almost 1.8 mil active troops and additional 5.8 mil reserve. Quite respectable, but there is no common command or goal outside NATO and EU fast response units.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

spursncowboys:

seriously?

That has little to do with the subject at hand.

Ukraine is the grain field of mother russia? really? had no idea.

Like i said, if it provides us support for the Afghan war, then good. Even if its under-the-table support that doesn't make press coverage.

Let's just rally up and kill some fuckin ragheads already.

[symple19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_military#Size_of_European_militaries

If you exclude NATO member Turkey Europe musters together almost 1.8 mil active troops and additional 5.8 mil reserve. Quite respectable, but there is no common command or goal outside NATO and EU fast response units.

Fair enough. I was wrong. I'll bet the heavy equipment numbers are still in the Russians favor though. (Arty/tanks/aircraft).

You're absolutely right about the command structure of NATO. It's okay at the top but as you get down to smaller units it could get messy.

The Russians were very good at pre-positioning equipment during the Cold War...Wonder if that's sill the case. Should also take into account the sorry condition that most Russian equipment is rumored to be in.

[MannyIsGod]

Rumored? Its a known fact they didn't maintain shit. They're not a first class military by any means. Did you not see what happend to them in Georgia?