What if ACORN was a conservative group. [Archive]

jack sommerset

09-17-2009, 09:06 PM

there is...it's called Blackwater...

Excuse me! What did you just say. "Blackwater." Why is it called Blackwater. why not call it redwater, bluewater or clearwater, you know water is clear. How bout just call it fucking water.

I would like to get an apology from nbadan. In this day and time. I don't have to sit around and take this. When we have diversity and refer to things as blackwater. It's negative.

Shastafarian

09-17-2009, 09:12 PM

"What if ACORN was a conservative group."

People like hopes4dopes, Wild Cobra, Yonivore, Viva Las Espuelas, jack sommerset, SouthernFried, and DarrinS would be defending it no doubt.

Winehole23

09-17-2009, 09:55 PM

hope4dopes

09-17-2009, 10:24 PM

I see this all the time. People think bullshit counterfactuals really prove something.

Maybe they do.

In the bullshit counterfactual world anything goes, so assume away, micca.

Strut your weak bullshit.

stick to the pompous simpering fop you really can't pull the macho thing off to well. I stated nothing I just asked what people thought.

Winehole23

09-17-2009, 10:28 PM

An innocent question?

My bad, micca.

Go ahead and make your point, if you have one.

ChumpDumper

09-18-2009, 04:01 AM

there is...it's called Blackwater...It's called Xe now because of all the bad press.

You could throw Haliburton in there too. All they did was kill people.

LnGrrrR

09-18-2009, 07:23 AM

stick to the pompous simpering fop you really can't pull the macho thing off to well. I stated nothing I just asked what people thought.

Oh Micca, will you teach all us simpering fops on how to look tough over the internet? You seem to be an expert in such matters. All us liberals quiver at your mighty presence.

hope4dopes

09-18-2009, 08:40 AM

Oh Micca, will you teach all us simpering fops on how to look tough over the internet? You seem to be an expert in such matters. All us liberals quiver at your mighty presence.
You're not a liberal, you're not a democrat.You're just another mindless Obamatron...as Obama would say...Where's my money bitch.

Shastafarian

09-18-2009, 08:42 AM

Ellipses are a tool, not a foregone conclusion.

hope4dopes

09-18-2009, 08:44 AM

Ellipses are a tool, not a foregone conclusion. Where's Obama's money....... bitch?

George Gervin's Afro

09-18-2009, 08:50 AM

Blackwater , Hallliburton? You guys were quiet on those guys so you have no right to complain.

Winehole23

09-18-2009, 08:58 AM

There was another shower fatality in Iraq a couple of days ago. The number of US forces/contractors who've been electrocuted in showers there is up to around 15.

Fraud can be deadly.

LnGrrrR

09-18-2009, 09:12 AM

You're not a liberal, you're not a democrat.You're just another mindless Obamatron...as Obama would say...Where's my money bitch.

Of course. Belive what you'd like. At least you're using (mostly) proper grammar and spelling now.

Shastafarian

09-18-2009, 01:00 PM

I got me a hankering to go ideoluging.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/luge.jpg

Republican

http://www.lugeaustralia.com.au/images/Luge%20sideshot.jpg

Democrat

da_suns_fan

09-18-2009, 03:19 PM

A penny for your thoughts. What do you think would have been the result of the ACORN tapes if the shoe was on the other foot. How do you think that story would have been spun if ACORN would have been a conservative or republican group funded by the goverment.

Hard to even imagine a conservative group ever giving tax evasion advice to would-be prostitutes and pimps. Conservatives would probably be even angrier.

Nbadan

09-18-2009, 07:11 PM

It's called Xe now because of all the bad press.

You could throw Haliburton in there too. All they did was kill people.

...too bad liberals didn't get some ass-clown to dress up like a habib in a costume from party city and catch Xe shooting up their homes for fun on hidden camera...

Wild Cobra

09-19-2009, 12:03 PM

"What if ACORN was a conservative group."

People like hopes4dopes, Wild Cobra, Yonivore, Viva Las Espuelas, jack sommerset, SouthernFried, and DarrinS would be defending it no doubt.
Not if they did something as wrong as APORN has continued to do.

Oh, Gee!!

09-21-2009, 08:47 AM

Blackwater , Hallliburton? You guys were quiet on those guys so you have no right to complain.

throw enron in there too

Oh, Gee!!

09-21-2009, 08:49 AM

Hard to even imagine a conservative group ever giving tax evasion advice to would-be prostitutes and pimps. Conservatives would probably be even angrier.

conservatives are only angry when corporations give advice to poor people about how to avoid paying taxes

Shastafarian

09-21-2009, 08:52 AM

Not if they did something as wrong as APORN has continued to do.

I feel like I saw another report of a soldier dying in Iraq because he was electrocuted in the shower. Care to talk about that?

Wild Cobra

09-21-2009, 11:06 AM

I feel like I saw another report of a soldier dying in Iraq because he was electrocuted in the shower. Care to talk about that?
Has that never happened in the USA?

Get real. That is stupid stuff you bring up.

LnGrrrR

09-21-2009, 11:13 AM

Has that never happened in the USA?

Get real. That is stupid stuff you bring up.

Soldiers dying in showers overseas due to shoddy electrical work is "stupid stuff"? Honestly?

Wild Cobra

09-21-2009, 11:30 AM

Soldiers dying in showers overseas due to shoddy electrical work is "stupid stuff"? Honestly?
No, acting as if it is unique is stupid.

I have read about this a few years ago when it started happening on occasion. The existing buildings were not built properly. This happens on occasion.

It is a standard technique to attach the ground to a cold water pipe. That however, is in situations where you have the steel cold water pipes physically going into the earth. Now what has to happen, is a faulty piece of equipment plugged in and a faulty ground. The power can then travel through the water pipe.

This happens from time to time here in the good 'ol USA. Due to wiring standards and the inspection process, it is almost nonexistent today, but it can still happen in older places.

Do you think Iraq had had the same wiring standards for as many years as we have?

clambake

09-21-2009, 11:34 AM

so....haliburton only has to follow iraqi standards. lol

LnGrrrR

09-21-2009, 12:02 PM

No, acting as if it is unique is stupid.

I have read about this a few years ago when it started happening on occasion. The existing buildings were not built properly. This happens on occasion.

It is a standard technique to attach the ground to a cold water pipe. That however, is in situations where you have the steel cold water pipes physically going into the earth. Now what has to happen, is a faulty piece of equipment plugged in and a faulty ground. The power can then travel through the water pipe.

This happens from time to time here in the good 'ol USA. Due to wiring standards and the inspection process, it is almost nonexistent today, but it can still happen in older places.

Do you think Iraq had had the same wiring standards for as many years as we have?

Yes, but the problems have been happening for years now. At some point, shouldn't all of those be fixed?

Per this article http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/28/world/middleeast/28iraq.html , it seems that multiple organizations were at fault. At least when you're in the states, you have the ability to pay a contractor to check your wiring before you buy a house. You know as well as I do that soldiers live where they're told to.

The latest death was a contractor...
http://blog.taragana.com/n/ap-newsbreak-security-contractor-for-state-department-electrocuted-while-showering-in-iraq-162975/

I'm not saying it's unique, but it seems cold to just dismiss their deaths WC.

Wild Cobra

09-21-2009, 12:10 PM

I'm not saying it's unique, but it seems cold to just dismiss their deaths WC.
When you consider how few accidents there are over there for the number of solders...

Have to ask yourself. Is the media just reporting all bad things they can find? Sanity check please.

Shastafarian

09-21-2009, 12:22 PM

So you're defending them.

Wild Cobra

09-21-2009, 12:29 PM

So you're defending them.
What do you mean?

Three soldiers and one contractor died in a shower. There are about 90,000 structures housing these people, built with low code standards or no code standards. There have been how many billions of showers taken since the start of the war?

Under the circumstances, only four deaths is actually pretty good.

Call it defending them if you want. Consider how sadistic it is to make a story of these deaths as a tool to darken what's going on.

Yes, the deaths are tragic. I'm just saying they are understandable. The death rate is probably lower than the death rate of people who die from falling coconuts.

Shastafarian

09-21-2009, 12:49 PM

What do you mean?

Three soldiers and one contractor died in a shower. There are about 90,000 structures housing these people, built with low code standards or no code standards. There have been how many billions of showers taken since the start of the war?

Under the circumstances, only four deaths is actually pretty good.

Call it defending them if you want. Consider how sadistic it is to make a story of these deaths as a tool to darken what's going on.

Yes, the deaths are tragic. I'm just saying they are understandable. The death rate is probably lower than the death rate of people who die from falling coconuts.

"Military leaders and a contractor failed to protect a Green Beret who was electrocuted in his barracks, the Defense Department has determined in findings released Monday."

The Defense Dept. found that these companies failed to protect a human being. That person DIED as a result. Yet you get your panties in a bunch over ACORN. As I said in my original post if ACORN was a conservative group, you'd defend them. And ACORN hasn't killed anyone that I know of.

George Gervin's Afro

09-21-2009, 12:52 PM

When you consider how few accidents there are over there for the number of solders...

Have to ask yourself. Is Fox News just reporting all bad things they can find? Sanity check please.

irony at it's finest..:lmao

boutons_deux

09-21-2009, 01:04 PM

"Is Fox News just reporting all bad things they can find"

yep, and when they can't find, they make up shit! :lol

ChumpDumper

09-21-2009, 02:53 PM

Under the circumstances, only four deaths is actually pretty good.No, it's actually pretty horrible.

boutons_deux

09-21-2009, 03:06 PM

"only four deaths is actually pretty good"

Predictably, reliably, WC always spins in favor of the institution over individuals (a standard "conservative" thought rut), even when the institution is killing his beloved military.

LnGrrrR

09-21-2009, 03:09 PM

When you consider how few accidents there are over there for the number of solders...

Have to ask yourself. Is the media just reporting all bad things they can find? Sanity check please.

Would you rather have a media NOT report on deaths due to contractor malfeasance? Would you rather them gloss that over? Do you think it would change the tone of the piece significantly if they shared the amount of deaths by shower in the US?

The death count, I believe, is up to 17, and it's been happening for three years now. That's a bit much. They did say they were in the process of investigating the buildings I believe, which is a good step.

But to just out of hand say, "Well, bad stuff happens, why does the media need to report it?" is silly. I mean, if you had relatives who bought a home, and one of them was electrocuted, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be so blase about the results.

LnGrrrR

09-21-2009, 03:13 PM

What do you mean?

Three soldiers and one contractor died in a shower. There are about 90,000 structures housing these people, built with low code standards or no code standards. There have been how many billions of showers taken since the start of the war?

Under the circumstances, only four deaths is actually pretty good.

Call it defending them if you want. Consider how sadistic it is to make a story of these deaths as a tool to darken what's going on.

Yes, the deaths are tragic. I'm just saying they are understandable. The death rate is probably lower than the death rate of people who die from falling coconuts.

3 were with showers, but if you read the link, it mentioned that 8 of the 18 electrocution deaths were attributed to faulty equipment.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:4yeDYPDkfAAJ:www.dodig.mil/inspections/IPO/reports/ROI-Part%2520%2520II%2520Final%2520(24%2520Jul%252009) _web.pdf+deaths+by+electrocution+united+states+sho wer&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Considering that there was a paper released in 2004 or so that specifically mentioned the hazards of electrocution...

oversight.house.gov/documents/20080730102126.pdf

...you'd think that it's not too out of the blue to be upset with the contractors, no?

LnGrrrR

09-21-2009, 03:33 PM

Call it defending them if you want. Consider how sadistic it is to make a story of these deaths as a tool to darken what's going on.

Darken what's going on? Like, say, continuing electrocutions? What's wrong with using this story as a hammer to bludgeon the contractors who did shoddy work, and force them to requalify their equipment?

Yes, the deaths are tragic. I'm just saying they are understandable. The death rate is probably lower than the death rate of people who die from falling coconuts.

Forgive me, but your post did not seem very sympathetic. And you're just assuming that amount of electrocutions is a low amount, arbitrarily.

According to this link, http://johndenugent.com/blog/2009/09/09/eighteenth-american-just-electrocuted-by-shower-in-iraq/ :

Records show U.S. troops suffered electrical shocks about every three days from September 2006 until July 31, 2008. A report by the Defense Contract Management Agency, based on a government search of a KBR database, indicated that 231 electrical shock incidents occurred in that period.

As far as comparing accidental electrocutions, good luck finding that info online. I found some on amount of OSHA deaths by electrocution (212 in 07, 192 in 08) but those were by people working on the job, not people using a product and getting fried by malfunctioning equipment.

However, I did find THIS link. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2629019 Now, the population of Ireland is about 6 million.

A review of autopsy reports in cases of electrocution in Northern Ireland revealed that there were 50 accidental electrocutions and 9 suicidal electrocutions over a 22 year period (1982 – 2003).

50 accidental electrocutions over a period of 22 years, for a country of 6 million. As opposed to 8 accidental deaths for a military composed of about 3 million, over 3 to 4 years. This isn't even bringing up the fact that of course, all 3 million haven't gone over to Iraq.

So yes, it seems a bit higher than it should be.

Winehole23

09-21-2009, 03:40 PM

Call it defending them if you want. Consider how sadistic it is to make a story of these deaths as a tool to darken what's going on.Any reporting that reflects ill on our conduct of the war or the civilian contractors supporting it -- even if it is true -- may undermine public support for the war. Therefore it is treacherous to the national interest and our soldiers in the field.

WC seems to think the press should be subservient to power and peddle its fairytale war propaganda -- e.g.,Tillman, Jessica Lynch -- while complaisantly canning any story that might adversely affect public perceptions.

At any rate, he has called press independence in bringing waste, fraud and corruption to our attention "sadistic", presumably for the negative effect on morale. He thinks the press "darkened" the war effort.

IMO waste, fraud, corruption and incompetence had already darkened it. Not reporting about these things would've been a disservice not only to the public, which has the right to know when pallets of public money disappear, but also to the uniformed military, which deserves better support than we gave it in Iraq.

DarrinS

09-21-2009, 04:17 PM

JIdxTQzNecw

Shastafarian

09-21-2009, 06:42 PM

JIdxTQzNecw

When I have nothing to add to the discussion I find a stupid youtube to post!!! Hooray me!!!

Wild Cobra

09-22-2009, 05:02 AM

Would you rather have a media NOT report on deaths due to contractor malfeasance? Would you rather them gloss that over? Do you think it would change the tone of the piece significantly if they shared the amount of deaths by shower in the US?

That's just it. I don't blame the contractors. Report the truth, not suspicion, unless reported accurately as suspicion.

The death count, I believe, is up to 17, and it's been happening for three years now. That's a bit much. They did say they were in the process of investigating the buildings I believe, which is a good step.

Four in a shower, four from otherwise improper grounds, and eight from exposed wiring. Where the 17th is?, I don't know. I thought there were 16 now.

How does this compare from electrical deaths per 100,000 here in the states? Can we at least have those numbers for comparison? All I could find so far is the annual death rate here is 15.2 per 100,000, but among construction workers. Do we hear these deaths reported when they occur? In five years, that makes the death rate of Americans in Iraq from electrocution at about 2.1 per 100,000.

But to just out of hand say, "Well, bad stuff happens, why does the media need to report it?" is silly. I mean, if you had relatives who bought a home, and one of them was electrocuted, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be so blase about the results.

I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't want them used as an inflammatory reason to cause more dissent against this war either.

Don't you see, that's all these reports are doing.

How about we ban construction because they have a mush higher electrocution morality rate than the military? Why are there no pundits out there saying that?

Wild Cobra

09-22-2009, 05:31 AM

WC seems to think the press should be subservient to power and peddle its fairytale war propaganda -- e.g.,Tillman, Jessica Lynch -- while complaisantly canning any story that might adversely affect public perceptions.

If the media reported all the small little good things going on as well, then you could accuse me of such things.

Wild Cobra

09-22-2009, 05:47 AM

Shastafarian

09-22-2009, 07:05 AM

Wild Cobra

09-22-2009, 07:48 AM

I like how you think all of this is relevant. Why can't you just say you're wrong? Why can't you admit you're defending them out of partisan instinct? It's not that hard. Oh and ACORN hasn't killed anybody. So they've still got that goin for 'em.
Because I'm not defending them out of partisan instinct. It is those using it as a reason not to be there that we are partisan.

If we take an average 150,000 soldiers over 5 years, that's 750,000 soldiers for 16 deaths. Yes, I'll count the contractor. Four of those deaths were consumer product related, or 0.53 one per 100,000. The 1998 US rate was more than a dozen timers that at 7.4 deaths per 100,000.

Now take all USA electrocutions in 1998, that is 20.4 per 100,000. US forces in Iraq are only 2.1 per 100,000 vs. the 20.4 1998 USA rate.

To report a story of deaths that are only about 10% of the USA rate is being partisan if you ask me.

Look in the mirror when you use that partisan word please. I am exposing the truth of partisans like you. Not being partisan about it.

LnGrrrR

09-22-2009, 08:57 AM

That's just it. I don't blame the contractors. Report the truth, not suspicion, unless reported accurately as suspicion.

If the equipment was faulty... then I don't see how you can't blame the contractors.

How does this compare from electrical deaths per 100,000 here in the states? Can we at least have those numbers for comparison? All I could find so far is the annual death rate here is 15.2 per 100,000, but among construction workers. Do we hear these deaths reported when they occur? In five years, that makes the death rate of Americans in Iraq from electrocution at about 2.1 per 100,000.

I found stats for OSHA but didn't include them, because obviously occupational workers will suffer more accidents than people using their product.

I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't want them used as an inflammatory reason to cause more dissent against this war either.

It's not dissent against the war; it's using the press to point out that some contracts are not being fulfilled as they should. It's what the press should be doing; pointing out negatives, and using the public to put pressure on officials to change what's wrong.

Don't you see, that's all these reports are doing.

How about we ban construction because they have a mush higher electrocution morality rate than the military? Why are there no pundits out there saying that?

Way to twist things around WC. Can you not see a difference between people working with electricity, and people using products that have electricity?

LnGrrrR

09-22-2009, 09:00 AM

If the media reported all the small little good things going on as well, then you could accuse me of such things.

Since when has the media focused on all the good things?

People EXPECT good things. Do you think people will tune in to hear, "Tonight at 7, no little children died on the way to school today."? Of course not. Negative experiences ring much more strongly in the psyche.

Occasionally, they DO post something positive in the media, but rarely. I've seen a few articles about soldiers going out and giving vaccinations to local populations, feeding the kids candy and playing soccer with them.

However, you don't seem to mind when the media reports negative things about, say, our President, do you? I don't see you clamoring for all the small little good things that our President has been doing.

LnGrrrR

09-22-2009, 09:41 AM

Now it's an older report, but consider this:

UNITED STATES
CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION
WASHINGTON, DC 20207
Memorandum (http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/shock98.pdf)

For 1998, the death rate with consumer products electrocutions in the USA was 0.74 per million. That is 7.4 per 100,000. This type of death is lower in Iraq than the 1998 USA statistic for all Iraqi related electrocutions.

Let's look closer at that report. It actually breaks down the electrocutions by accident.

I think we can leave out electrocutions by household items, like microwaves, extension cords, etc etc, because we're only looking at electrocutions by contractor equipment that could have/should have been prevented. It would seem the accident would fall into these categories: Household Wiring (25 deaths), Large Appliance (37 deaths), and Power Tools (27 deaths). Adding them up, we get 89 deaths. That's a more realistic number to work from... no point in adding gardening equipment or activity park related deaths that I can see.

That makes the amount 89, instead of 200. So instead of .74 as a rate, we should have something close to .33. (About 3 people per 100,000.)

Now, according to this website (http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm) there are 130,000 troops in Iraq.

So, according to this, we're about at the right rate for the US.

Given this, it does seem that we can expect to have a few electrical deaths overseas, and it probably is being sensationalized by the media without comparison to average deaths.

I think the electrocutions in the shower are given the most play, due to the sensational aspect of it. One expects soldiers to die on the battlefield, not in a shower where they're vulnerable.

I still think it's good to take notice of deaths if they are due to faulty contractor equipment/work, but I will note that the number of deaths does seem consistent with national averages, so it's a bit sensational to throw numbers out there without reference.

Winehole23

09-22-2009, 10:49 AM

If the media reported all the small little good things going on as well, then you could accuse me of such things.It did more than that -- it reported on nonexistent good things, like the fake Silver Star Tillman won for his friendly fire death, and the fake rescue of Private Lynch.

Shastafarian

09-22-2009, 11:54 AM

Because I'm not defending them out of partisan instinct. Yes you are.
It is those using it as a reason not to be there that we are partisan.Irrelevant

If we take an average 150,000 soldiers over 5 years, that's 750,000 soldiers for 16 deaths. Yes, I'll count the contractor. Four of those deaths were consumer product related, or 0.53 one per 100,000. The 1998 US rate was more than a dozen timers that at 7.4 deaths per 100,000.

Now take all USA electrocutions in 1998, that is 20.4 per 100,000. US forces in Iraq are only 2.1 per 100,000 vs. the 20.4 1998 USA rate.:lol I don't care how many statistics you show. You're still defending a company that was RESPONSIBLE for the deaths of 16 people. ACORN has been responsible for deaths of 0 people.

To report a story of deaths that are only about 10% of the USA rate is being partisan if you ask me.You and spursncowboys don't have a good grasp on the term "news" do you?

Look in the mirror when you use that partisan word please. I am exposing the truth of partisans like you. Not being partisan about it.
:rollin