Joe Wilson Was Right - Obama wants to give illegals amnesty

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Joe should take back his apology and tell Nancy and Co. to fuck off.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1


President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage.

:td

[coyotes_geek]

So in terms of healthcare, what should we do with the illegals? Republicans don't want the illegals to be able to buy insurance. They don't want to make them legal so that they can buy insurance. And as long as they're uninsured they're not going to quit receiving free healthcare in our emergency rooms. So what should we do?

[hope4dopes]

So in terms of healthcare, what should we do with the illegals? Republicans don't want the illegals to be able to buy insurance. They don't want to make them legal so that they can buy insurance. And as long as they're uninsured they're not going to quit receiving free healthcare in our emergency rooms. So what should we do? Deport them.

[coyotes_geek]

Deport them.

Do you really think that's a practical solution?

[johnsmith]

It's right there in the word used to describe them ILLEGAL.

[hope4dopes]

Do you really think that's a practical solution?

UH..yeah.

[nkdlunch]

Joe should take back his apology and tell Nancy and Co. to fuck off.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1



:td

let's see. illegals won't be illegal anymore if they are legallized. So Obama did not lie.


FAIL THREAD

[Bender]

Do you really think that's a practical solution?

I do. Kick 'em out.

[johnsmith]

I think we should allow robbers, thieves, rapists, murderers, etc, to just change their label to LEGALS, and it will all work itself out.

[coyotes_geek]

UH..yeah.

How so? We couldn't keep them from coming here in the first place. So we deport them. They're back in a week.

[hope4dopes]

let's see. illegals won't be illegal anymore if they are legallized. So Obama did not lie.


FAIL THREAD brilliant.I don't want to nitpick but some people would call that a LIE.

[hope4dopes]

How so? We couldn't keep them from coming here in the first place. So we deport them. They're back in a week.

Bullshit.

[nkdlunch]

brilliant.I don't want to nitpick but some people would call that a LIE.

yeah. ppl like Joe Wilson

[coyotes_geek]

Bullshit.

Really? You think that just because we deport someone that they're never going to try to come back? Seems pretty naive.

[clambake]

silly micca.

[hope4dopes]

Really? You think that just because we deport someone that they're never going to try to come back? Seems pretty naive.
No I think your pretty niave,we CAN police our borders the bussiness and political class will not ALLOW us to police our border, will not allow us to withhold our tax money to support illegals, will not allow us to hand out mandatory jail terms to people who employee illegals.

[clambake]

No I think your pretty niave,we CAN police our borders the bussiness and political class will not ALLOW us to police our border, will not allow us to withhold our tax money to support illegals, will not allow us to hand out mandatory jail terms to people who employee illegals.

you just said to deport them......then you say this.

silly micca.

[coyotes_geek]

No I think your pretty niave,we CAN police our borders the bussiness and political class will not ALLOW us to police our border, will not allow us to withhold our tax money to support illegals, will not allow us to hand out mandatory jail terms to people who employee illegals.

So in other words, deporting them isn't practical. Like I said.

[hope4dopes]

So in other words, deporting them isn't practical. Like I said.Of course it's practical.Like I said.

[coyotes_geek]

How is it practical if the business and political class won't allow it? Obama certainly isn't going to support any kind of mass deportation. So as long as he's calling the shots, it's a fact that it's just not going to happen. And as long as it's not going to happen, the illegals are going to continue to be here collecting free health coverage. What should we do about that? Again, deportation is not an option.

[clambake]

illegals are important.............now.

[hope4dopes]

How is it practical if the business and political class won't allow it? Obama certainly isn't going to support any kind of mass deportation. So as long as he's calling the shots, it's a fact that it's just not going to happen. And as long as it's not going to happen, the illegals are going to continue to be here collecting free health coverage. What should we do about that? Again, deportation is not an option.

I think we are already doing something about it.I think that's what the uprising of Americans going to the Tea Parties is all about.I think they are trying to pull down a system that does not represent them or thier intresets, trying to pull down a status quo and a corrupt political class.
Mass deportation is a canard created by the political class to, deflect the peoples will.Already, because of our economic collapse(sorry the recession is over) illegals are deporting themselves. If we remove the incentives like free food stamps, free schooling,free medical care,free acssess to jobs,and of course freedom to ply prostitution, illegals will deport themselves those that won't can easily be deported if the local law enforcement is ALLOWED to do their jobs.

[doobs]

I don't think Joe Wilson apologized because he though Obama wasn't lying. He apologized because it was an inappropriate outburst.

I mean, Kanye West might be right about Beyonce and Taylor Swift. But it was inappropriate for him to interrupt and make an ass of himself. Same goes for Joe Wilson.

[clambake]

I think we are already doing something about it.I think that's what the uprising of Americans going to the Tea Parties is all about.I think they are trying to pull down a system that does not represent them or thier intresets, trying to pull down a status quo and a corrupt political class.
Mass deportation is a canard created by the political class to, deflect the peoples will.Already, because of our economic collapse(sorry the recession is over) illegals are deporting themselves. If we remove the incentives like free food stamps, free schooling,free medical care,free acssess to jobs,and of course freedom to ply prostitution, illegals will deport themselves those that won't can easily be deported if the local law enforcement is ALLOWED to do their jobs.

nah, they could have done that before. but they didn't.

[coyotes_geek]

I think we are already doing something about it.I think that's what the uprising of Americans going to the Tea Parties is all about.I think they are trying to pull down a system that does not represent them or thier intresets, trying to pull down a status quo and a corrupt political class.
Mass deportation is a canard created by the political class to, deflect the peoples will.Already, because of our economic collapse(sorry the recession is over) illegals are deporting themselves. If we remove the incentives like free food stamps, free schooling,free medical care,free acssess to jobs,and of course freedom to ply prostitution, illegals will deport themselves those that won't can easily be deported if the local law enforcement is ALLOWED to do their jobs.

So basically your stance is free healthcare for illegals until we figure out how to convince them to leave on their own.

[spursncowboys]

We can seal our border if we want. I remember when I...I mean my friend, couldn't get weed after 9-11 because the border was sealed. We can increase the number of visas from Mexico, but people and countries need to respect our borders. Atleast that is what a stupid racist American would say. Calling them illegals is so insensitive. they are undocumented immigrants. In fact immigrants is kind of insensitive. We should call them 'Almost American-Americans'.

[clambake]

We can seal our border if we want. I remember when I...I mean my friend, couldn't get weed after 9-11 because the border was sealed. We can increase the number of visas from Mexico, but people and countries need to respect our borders. Atleast that is what a stupid racist American would say. Calling them illegals is so insensitive. they are undocumented immigrants. In fact immigrants is kind of insensitive. We should call them 'Almost American-Americans'.

so...you consistently hired illegals?

you should be punished for destroying america.

[CosmicCowboy]

I prefer "Pilgrims from Mexico"

[Winehole23]

Our prosperity is based on commerce. We can't close the borders.

Control them better, yes. But any LE measures that unduly hinder trade are counterproductive.

[hater]

I vote "hardworkers who drink tequila"

[clambake]

I prefer "Pilgrims from Mexico"

thats a good idea.

hell.....lets smooth things over and just give them el paso.

[hope4dopes]

So basically your stance is free healthcare for illegals until we figure out how to convince them to leave on their own. Hell no, There should be an E-verify system for healthcare,schools,financial aide, and for employment, that would be something we could do tomorow.

[hope4dopes]

Our prosperity is based on commerce. We can't close the borders.

Control them better, yes. But any LE measures that unduly hinder trade are counterproductive.
whose prosperity...I suggest if you want to continue to exploit and pimp you go across the border and do it there.

[hope4dopes]

I vote "hardworkers who drink tequila"

paternalistic racist

[clambake]

whose prosperity...I suggest if you want to continue to exploit and pimp you go across the border and do it there.

how do you know he doesn't?

anyway...props for going from "deport them" to "E-verify" in the matter of minutes.

[SpurNation]

Logistically be done?

I dont know...ask the Cherokee nation if it can't be done.

To claim just to simply legalize all illegals is just a patchwork solution in order to maybe help the reform bill pass.

What most people don't realize (maybe they do?) is that most illegal alliens don't care about being legal citizens of this country and prefer to keep it that way.

And legallizing the already 20 mil illegals won't keep others from entering this country illegally either. (By the way...Hispanics aren't the only illegals entering and living in this country)

In fact...it'll take their illegal status away thus allowing the ever more illegals entering this country to take their jobs.

Granted...legalizing illegals might help induce tax revenue...but not having to pay taxes is a huge reason many are here to begin with and the people utelizing illegal labor would just employee illegals again if it meant they were to have to pay taxes on the people they use now.

So just by legalizing them doesn't solve the problem...in fact it possibly would accelerate the problem and costs.

Again...a simple solution explained probably without even looking at comparative data to back up the claim. It's a big part of how Obama operates as well as many members in the political arena.

Again...government not held accountable for it's actins are much different than the citizens who have to be accountable almost every day of their lives.

No easy solution that's for sure.

[clambake]

Logistically be done?

I dont know...ask the Cherokee nation if it can't be done.

To claim just to simply legalize all illegals is just a patchwork solution in order to maybe help the reform bill pass.

What most people don't realize (maybe they do?) is that most illegal alliens don't care about being legal citizens of this country and prefer to keep it that way.

And legallizing the already 20 mil illegals won't keep others from entering this country illegally either. (By the way...Hispanics aren't the only illegals entering and living in this country)

In fact...it'll take their illegal status away thus allowing the ever more illegals entering this country to take their jobs.

Granted...legalizing illegals might help induce tax revenue...but not having to pay taxes is a huge reason many are here to begin with and the people utelizing illegal labor would just employee illegals again if it meant they were to have to pay taxes on the people they use now.

So just by legalizing them doesn't solve the problem...in fact it possibly would accelerate the problem and costs.

Again...a simple solution explained probably without even looking at comparative data to back up the claim. It's a big part of how Obama operates as well as many members in the political arena.

Again...government not held accountable for it's actins are much different than the citizens who have to be accountable almost every day of their lives.

No easy solution that's for sure.

the indians had a choice. one of two choices was slaughter and extinction.

are you suggesting we enforce that option with illegals?

[hope4dopes]

Logistically be done?

I dont know...ask the Cherokee nation if it can't be done.

To claim just to simply legalize all illegals is just a patchwork solution in order to maybe help the reform bill pass.

What most people don't realize (maybe they do?) is that most illegal alliens don't care about being legal citizens of this country and prefer to keep it that way.

And legallizing the already 20 mil illegals won't keep others from entering this country illegally either. (By the way...Hispanics aren't the only illegals entering and living in this country)

In fact...it'll take their illegal status away thus allowing the ever more illegals entering this country to take their jobs.

Granted...legalizing illegals might help induce tax revenue...but not having to pay taxes is a huge reason many are here to begin with and the people utelizing illegal labor would just employee illegals again if it meant they were to have to pay taxes on the people they use now.

So just by legalizing them doesn't solve the problem...in fact it possibly would accelerate the problem and costs.

Again...a simple solution explained probably without even looking at comparative data to back up the claim. It's a big part of how Obama operates as well as many members in the political arena.

Again...government not held accountable for it's actins are much different than the citizens who have to be accountable almost every day of their lives.

No easy solution that's for sure.

On the contrary, the solutions are far easier than the political class would have us believe. The political class create Gordian knots of disasters and then tell us we need them to unravel it.That we need to take our attention energy, and resourses to unravel it. We need to take Alexanders approach.

[coyotes_geek]

Hell no, There should be an E-verify system for healthcare,schools,financial aide, and for employment, that would be something we could do tomorow.

h4d chooses Door #1. And there are only 3 doors. Any other red teamers care to answer?

1. Flat out deny any and all medical attention to those who can't prove citizenship.
2. Find a way to make illegals share in the cost of the coverage they're receiving, either by allowing them to buy insurance as illegals, or by allowing them to become legal so that they can buy insurance.
3. Just ignore the problem and allow illegals to continue receiving free healthcare.

[hope4dopes]

h4d chooses Door #1. And there are only 3 doors. Any other red teamers care to answer?

1. Flat out deny any and all medical attention to those who can't prove citizenship.
2. Find a way to make illegals share in the cost of the coverage they're receiving, either by allowing them to buy insurance as illegals, or by allowing them to become legal so that they can buy insurance.
3. Just ignore the problem and allow illegals to continue receiving free healthcare. I would deny all but life threatening services.

[SpurNation]

h4d chooses Door #1. And there are only 3 doors. Any other red teamers care to answer?

1. Flat out deny any and all medical attention to those who can't prove citizenship.
2. Find a way to make illegals share in the cost of the coverage they're receiving, either by allowing them to buy insurance as illegals, or by allowing them to become legal so that they can buy insurance.
3. Just ignore the problem and allow illegals to continue receiving free healthcare.

1. Would never happen (at least one would hope not) (maybe?)
2. a. Find a way to make illegals pay. How? b. Again...How?
3. happening now.

4. (as a back up to 2b) Just make it so that every person entering this country is granted citizenship?

4 would put an even bigger strain on the economy because social programs would be even more in demand. And we couldn't have 2b without implementing 4.

[SpurNation]

I would deny all but life threatening services.

Slippery slope. Denying simple care would increase the chances of critical care.

[LnGrrrR]

And legallizing the already 20 mil illegals won't keep others from entering this country illegally either. (By the way...Hispanics aren't the only illegals entering and living in this country)


I think you'll find that most proponents of amnesty are also for securing our borders for this very reason.

[SpurNation]

I suggest implementing ID verification at hospitals and emergency clinics. Illegals would receive care but also be deported once care were administered.

That would detour illegals from entering these facilities for simple care and force them to pay at practioners offices for their simple care. At least that way illegals would be contributing something to health care costs if they would fear deportation of entering emergency rooms.

Cost for this? I would suspect that having a INS agent stationed at emergency medical facilities and hospitals would not cost as much as legalizing all illegals in this country.

[hope4dopes]

Slippery slope. Denying simple care would increase the chances of critical care.

No, the slippery Slope was the Kennedy amnesty that allowed 3 million illegals in, the slippery slope was sanctuary cities, the slippery slope was giving financial aide to illegals, the slippery slope was not protecting our borders the slippery slope has run us into a brick wall, and you suggest more of the same?

[SpurNation]

I think you'll find that most proponents of amnesty are also for securing our borders for this very reason.

That would be great!

But the can of worms would be opened even more. How would all the people that have legally become citizens by adhereing to the law be compensated?




No, the slippery Slope was the Kennedy amnesty that allowed 3 million illegals in, the slippery slope was sanctuary cities, the slippery slope was giving financial aide to illegals, the slippery slope was not protecting our borders the slippery slope has run us into a brick wall, and you suggest more of the same?

Read my post prior to yours. It's just a suggestion.

And I appreciate your passion...but what your talking about here has already happened. I was suggesting on what could be done now and in leu (sp?) of just legalizing illegal alliens.

[hope4dopes]

I think you'll find that most proponents of amnesty are also for securing our borders for this very reason.

This is a chickenshit canard by the left. the first amnesty bill by Kennedy proposed the same thing, and then the American left did all it could to obstruct securing our borders
Fool me once shame on you,fool me twice shame on me.

Or as Joe Wilson would say YOU LIE.

[clambake]

did the left fool you, micca?

[George Gervin's Afro]

This is a chickenshit canard by the left. the first amnesty bill by Kennedy proposed the same thing, and then the American left did all it could to obstruct securing our borders
Fool me once shame on you,fool me twice shame on me.

Or as Joe Wilson would say YOU LIE.

you should try thinking for yourself.. it's reeeeeeeaaallllyyy cool!

[LnGrrrR]

This is a chickenshit canard by the left. the first amnesty bill by Kennedy proposed the same thing, and then the American left did all it could to obstruct securing our borders
Fool me once shame on you,fool me twice shame on me.

Or as Joe Wilson would say YOU LIE.

Micca, do you wear a bib to collect the spittle whilst frothing at the mouth?

I think you'll find that conservatives have also blocked border security requirements, because conservatives are also supported by business owners that use illegal immigrants.

[LnGrrrR]

That would be great!

But the can of worms would be opened even more. How would all the people that have legally become citizens by adhereing to the law be compensated?

They wouldn't. Yes, it's unfair. They would have to learn to accept it. Speaking as someone who's help sponsored a person for a green card, who will also be helping them with citizenship, I'm personally ok with it.

Note: Nearly all immigration proposals also, besides the payment for forms, include some sort of 'penalty' tax as well. So that would be somewhat a punishment. Not like it's not already expensive enough to get a green card... the forms cost me $1400 or so, and the lawyer was $2500.

[hope4dopes]

Micca, do you wear a bib to collect the spittle whilst frothing at the mouth?

I think you'll find that conservatives have also blocked border security requirements, because conservatives are also supported by business owners that use illegal immigrants.

I think you'll find there are many many rank and file democrats who don't support amnesty.

[LnGrrrR]

I think you'll find there are many many rank and file democrats who don't support amnesty.

Yes, that's my point. Democrats and Republicans both block true border security because they are in the pockets of businesses. and occasionally they think that's actually the right thing to do. And then you have some Democrats and Republicans who are for amnesty, most often because it will give them a bump in the polls, and occasionally some who think that's actually the right thing to do.

[boutons_deux]

IIRC, Magic Negro said in his campaign that his solution for illegal immigration

1. illegal immigrants pay a fine for breaking the law

2. illegal immigrants apply for a working/residence permit, getting in line behind all the legal applicants.

That's a normalization, not amnesty.

Lots of difficulties with that approach, but it's a very difficult problem.

The Repugs had 6 unfettered years to solve illegal immigration, and did nothing. Maybe Repug employers didn't want illegals solved, but wanted to continue exploiting them?

[ChumpDumper]

Hey micca, you never told us how you avoid everything in life that could possibly be tainted by the scourge of illegal immigrant labor.

[Marcus Bryant]

Living in a 'sanctuary city' is odd. It's as if certain people do not exist, though they stand at an intersection all day long. None dare acknowledge their presence.

[Winehole23]

paternalistic racistmicca, PC anti-racist avenger, strikes again.

[elbamba]

So in terms of healthcare, what should we do with the illegals? Republicans don't want the illegals to be able to buy insurance. They don't want to make them legal so that they can buy insurance. And as long as they're uninsured they're not going to quit receiving free healthcare in our emergency rooms. So what should we do?

Not just that but our politicians in general do not want to due anything about immigration or enforce the laws as they are. Really the most logical step is to allow them to purchase insurance and that way we don't get stuck with the bill. Its the same with car insurance, anyone here ever been hit by an illegal immigrant with no insurance, you get screwed twice in that deal. Just let them buy insurance, its easier then granting amnesty and cheaper than deporting millions of people who will be back tomorrow. It also makes it cheaper on we the people.

[nuclearfm]

Yes, that's my point. Democrats and Republicans both block true border security because they are in the pockets of businesses. and occasionally they think that's actually the right thing to do. And then you have some Democrats and Republicans who are for amnesty, most often because it will give them a bump in the polls, and occasionally some who think that's actually the right thing to do.

Yes Yes Yes, you guys said it all.

Sub par wages make people money. It's that simple. You'll notice that most of the propaganda is directed at the undocumented (alot of it is quite frankly racist), yet hardly at employers. Wealth controls what the media says.

[nuclearfm]

The Repugs had 6 unfettered years to solve illegal immigration, and did nothing. Maybe Repug employers didn't want illegals solved, but wanted to continue exploiting them?

Yup, they did. You know why the didn't solve it? It denies money to their constituents, kiss those nice fat monetary donations goodbye.

I'm sure mostly everyone on this board here in SA has witnessed what kind of wealth people generate/save from hiring illegals. You can find it EVERYWHERE. It's pathetic.

[mogrovejo]

Yes Yes Yes, you guys said it all.

Sub par wages make people money. It's that simple. You'll notice that most of the propaganda is directed at the undocumented (alot of it is quite frankly racist), yet hardly at employers. Wealth controls what the media says.

Who do you think that would pay for the increased labour wages?

a) employers/share-holders
b) consumers

[nuclearfm]

Who do you think that would pay for the increased labour wages?

a) employers/share-holders
b) consumers

Both. That's a pretty stupid question interest groups like to pose on people. I'll just assume that you didn't come up with yourself and spare you the insults. Sometimes, when people raise prices too high, they don't get sold. Everybody suffers. That's where competition comes in, however it only works when it's FAIR

[SpurNation]

They wouldn't. Yes, it's unfair. They would have to learn to accept it. Speaking as someone who's help sponsored a person for a green card, who will also be helping them with citizenship, I'm personally ok with it.

Note: Nearly all immigration proposals also, besides the payment for forms, include some sort of 'penalty' tax as well. So that would be somewhat a punishment. Not like it's not already expensive enough to get a green card... the forms cost me $1400 or so, and the lawyer was $2500.

I thought of sponsoring a person as well. Then I was shown the amounts you just mentioned. I financially couldn't do it. Of course mine were to have this person work for me. A good person. One deserving a chance to be here. I just simply couldn't afford it.

I'm guessing your situation is different than mine.

But it leads to the point I'm making. How is it fair to "legalize" illegal immigrants for free by government proposal into law when many go through the expenditures such as yourself and those who sacrifice everything they fiscally have doing it legally.

And once that can of worms is opened...how do we handle future illegals if this is set as precedence?

[mogrovejo]

Both. That's a pretty stupid question interest groups like to pose on people. I'll just assume that you didn't come up with yourself and spare you the insults. Sometimes, when people raise prices too high, they don't get sold. That's where competition comes in.

If they don't get sold, they won't get produced and no jobs will be available, right?

[nuclearfm]

If they don't get sold, they won't get produced and no jobs will be available, right?

Yeah, that's called having a unsustainable business. Thank goodness for bankruptcy laws.

That's where someone who can get the job done legally for the price comes in. Although, according to most people with your argument, they don't exist.

[mogrovejo]

Yeah, that's called having a unsustainable business. Thank goodness for bankruptcy laws.

That's where someone who can get the job done legally for the price comes in. Although, according to most people with your argument, they don't exist.

Why don't they exist? If they can get the job done for the same price legally, they already exist. If anything, there will be less offer, causing a raise on the price to the consumer, ceteris paribus. If the job can't get done for the same price, either the consumers will need to pay the increase in the price or the job simply won't be done.

[nuclearfm]

I don't buy people's arguments that Americans won't do certain types of work unless it's the right price. They will if that's what's available. We used to lead the world in manufacturing, now we don't do anything near it because "it's too hard/ bad work. etc" Everyone is entitled to slack off apparently nowadays. Damn baby boomers

[mogrovejo]

I don't buy people's arguments that Americans won't do certain types of work unless it's the right price. They will if that's what's available. We used to lead the world in manufacturing, now we don't do anything near it because "it's too hard/ bad work. etc" Everyone is entitled to slack off apparently nowadays. Damn baby boomers

Why would an American work for the salary of a Chinese manufacture worker? He would simply collect the food stamps et all and do something else with his time. The reason you don't lead the world in manufacturing isn't because it's too hard (there are lots of harder jobs Americans are willing to do), but because the living standard that leading the world in manufacture leads to is not acceptable any more to an American.

Anyway, the point is that it's impossible to use the law to force employers or shareholders to pay for increased costs. If they don't like the ROI they're getting, they'll simply move the capital elsewhere. That's why price-controls have never worked even though politicians have tried them since before the Roman Empire. If it was possible, the congress should simply enact a law increasing the minimum wage to $1,000 per hour and you'd have a country of millionaires.

[nuclearfm]

Why would an American work for the salary of a Chinese manufacture worker? He would simply collect the food stamps et all and do something else with his time. The reason you don't lead the world in manufacturing isn't because it's too hard (there are lots of harder jobs Americans are willing to do), but because the living standard that leading the world in manufacture leads to is not acceptable any more to an American.

Anyway, the point is that it's impossible to use the law to force employers or shareholders to pay for increased costs. If they don't like the ROI they're getting, they'll simply move the capital elsewhere. That's why price-controls have never worked even though politicians have tried them since before the Roman Empire. If it was possible, the congress should simply enact a law increasing the minimum wage to $1,000 per hour and you'd have a country of millionaires.

Do you know how welfare law works? You simply can't just collect food stamps and do nothing to improve your situation. They'll boot you off the program quick..and I mean quick.

We had a good standard of living while we're were manufacturing leaders at various points history. That is simply incorrect and a lie. For example, We had a high end tax rate of 90% in the last century during the baby boom with very high standards of living.

Secondly, stopping illegal employment has nothing to do with price control law. It's a side argument that is not at hand.

[mogrovejo]

Do you know how welfare law works? You simply can't just collect food stamps and do nothing to improve your situation. They'll boot you off the program quick..and I mean quick.

You don't get welfare if you're unemployed? Anyway, if you can find 100/150 Americans willing to work 10 hours per day for a $94 monthly salary (no paid holidays and all that stuff), I'll take a flight next Monday to meet you and start the process to create a new plant.


We had a good standard of living while we're were manufacturing leaders at various points history. That is simply incorrect and a lie. For example, We had a high end tax rate of 90% in the last century during the baby boom with very high standards of living.

What's exactly a lie? The goodness of a standard of living is always relative. Most Chinese manufacture workers live with less than $100 per month and are extremely happy with their standard of living. For example, the life expectancy for an American male in the 1955 was 63 years old - the same an Indian has today. But I doubt many Americans today would be happy with the life expectancy of an Indian.

There was a reason why JFK reduced those high end tax rates. They weren't getting the job done in a changing world.


Secondly, stopping illegal employment has nothing to do with price control law. It's a side argument that is not at hand.

I don't know about "stopping illegal employment" - I was just arguing with your point that shareholders would be the ones suffering from increased labour wages. What I'm saying is that all efforts to administratively control prices are futile and wages are prices themselves (the price of work).

[nuclearfm]

You don't get welfare if you're unemployed? Anyway, if you can find 100/150 Americans willing to work 10 hours per day for a $94 monthly salary (no paid holidays and all that stuff), I'll take a flight next Monday to meet you and start the process to create a new plant.



I don't know about "stopping illegal employment" - I was just arguing with your point that shareholders would be the ones suffering from increased labour wages. What I'm saying is that all efforts to administratively control prices are futile and wages are prices themselves (the price of work).

For that $94 Dollar monthly salary we sure could charge a lot less for those products at retail if they were made HERE. If people got paid $94 dollars here, you'd find much better deals than Chinese products. There are a lot of hands in the Jar with trade involving China. Every single middleman will get their take until it gets up to standard retail value (the price people will pay). We could pay our workers much more for comparable prices to say the least.

Secondly, I said it would hurt both consumers and businesses that engage in that illegal practice. It does hurt a business that is operating illegally when it is forced to operate legally, they can pass on costs but only to an extent or else they wont sell. Stockholders/Businesses aren't immune to the law.

[polysylab1k]

I do. Kick 'em out.
Government would have to give them free flights then, which will also be an elephant huge cost. My suggestion is we keep those illegal aliens inboard and give them some works no American or legal immigrant is willing to take. Illegal immigrants are god-given slaves to United States, and it's not immoral to treat em the same way that Obama's ancestors were treated in America.

[mogrovejo]

For that $94 Dollar monthly salary we sure could charge a lot less for those products at retail if they were made HERE. If people got paid $94 dollars here, you'd find much better deals than Chinese products. There are a lot of hands in the Jar with trade involving China. Every single middleman will get their take until it gets up to standard retail value (the price people will pay). We could pay our workers much more for comparable prices to say the least.

Yeah, it'd be very profitable, that's why I'm willing to take a plane ASAP. You can't pay much more, because there aren't that many middlemen (for example, Nike or Toys'r'us buy directly to the source and in some case they own the plant) and we'd be limited to the north-american market, as a German wouldn't pay more for an equal product just because it was made in America and not in China, so we'd lose the scale benefits, we'd pay higher prices for electricity, legal expenses, etc, etc. In the real world, the reason why companies delocalize is because they are able to reduce costs and sell at lower prices, increasing their competitiveness.


Secondly, I said it would hurt both consumers and businesses that engage in that illegal practice. It does hurt a business that is operating illegally when it is forced to operate legally, they can pass on costs but only to an extent or else they wont sell. Stockholders/Businesses aren't immune to the law.

Of course they aren't immune to laws - that's why in 40s, post-war, there was no meat available in the US. Not even insuline for diabetics was available in the pharmacies (insuline was produced from animal meat). The reason for that was that farmers and meatpackers couldn't sell their meat at a price high enough to cover their costs (including the profit, which is the cost of the money invested). If forcing a business to operate legally increases their costs (and I don't know if that's the case, I'm just taking your scenario as a working hypothesis), including the renumeration the shareholders want, to the point they won't be able to keep selling, then they will stop operating. It's basically the same process because of which you try to get the higher interest rate for your deposits, not the lowest one (or why companies delocalize for countries with lower tax rates). In this sense, yeah, it hurts business (and it can hurt shareholds if they aren't efficient moving their money - it can hurt them badly if they never move it and the company goes bankrutp). But that's just destruction of wealth. Why is hurting businesses and destroying wealth a good thing? It's a pretty bad one, from my point of view.

p.s.- I'm not discussing if companies should be allowed to employ illegal imigrants. I'm just talking from an economical, value-free, perspective.

[spursncowboys]

h4d chooses Door #1. And there are only 3 doors. Any other red teamers care to answer?

1. Flat out deny any and all medical attention to those who can't prove citizenship.
2. Find a way to make illegals share in the cost of the coverage they're receiving, either by allowing them to buy insurance as illegals, or by allowing them to become legal so that they can buy insurance.
3. Just ignore the problem and allow illegals to continue receiving free healthcare.
4. a.) Secure our Southern border. b.) Deport any 'pilgrim from (not America). c.) Increase the annual amount of Mexicans allowed in our country legally. d.) Suit up and play laser-tag. *Don't give preferential treatment to a culture that can walk across to America, even though every country wants to come to America.

[spursncowboys]

Government would have to give them free flights then, which will also be an elephant huge cost. My suggestion is we keep those illegal aliens inboard and give them some works no American or legal immigrant is willing to take. Illegal immigrants are god-given slaves to United States, and it's not immoral to treat em the same way that Obama's ancestors were treated in America.
Don't buy the round-trip. One way. Also I think Obama's black side wasn't even in America. His people were the ones on the coastline laughing at all their people shipped away. Little did they know that those people's family would have the last laugh.

[LnGrrrR]

I thought of sponsoring a person as well. Then I was shown the amounts you just mentioned. I financially couldn't do it. Of course mine were to have this person work for me. A good person. One deserving a chance to be here. I just simply couldn't afford it.

I'm guessing your situation is different than mine.


Yes, I was getting a green card for my wife who had a VISA

I think that's one of the things people don't recognize about illegal immigrants; how hard it is to actually get legal. If you're not a skilled worker, or related to someone, then you've got to get lucky with the immigrant lottery. Then, if you're chosen, you have to pay a good amount of cash.


But it leads to the point I'm making. How is it fair to "legalize" illegal immigrants for free by government proposal into law when many go through the expenditures such as yourself and those who sacrifice everything they fiscally have doing it legally.

And once that can of worms is opened...how do we handle future illegals if this is set as precedence?

Again, in many of the plans, they'd pay a fee above and beyond the processing fees of someone who went through the right way. So they'd be paying extra.