Indentured Servitude

[SpurNation]

There are many threads that are discussing illegal alliens because of the health care reform act being debated.

The solution is not a simple one to address. Pro's and Con's on both sides have lamented their points.

What of..instead of...just legallizing the already illegals in this country that if they so wish instead of deportation they were granted Indentured Servitude to this nation?

Health Care would be provided. Granted it would be taken out of their pay. Salaries would be more than they receive now. Many problems of needing to improve infrastructure would be solved. And our tax dollars would not just be wasted while instead actually be used to improving our nation.

College education could be obtained. Tax revenue would increase. And many of the criminal aspect would be eliminated from our prison system. The people that have already gone through the current legal process of citizenship would not be cheated. And if any illegal that is willing to work as Indentured Servitude can find the way to achieve citizenship as granted now would still have that oportunity to do so.

There would be other benefits as well to this nation. Too many that I would care to post because it would make this post way too long.

Point is...if somebody wants to be in this country and receive the benefits...they should be willing to have choices instead of just amnesty.

And before I hear somebody talk about it's not humane. Think about all of our service members who are indentured to serving in the military once they made that choice. If it's good enough for them...it should be more than welcomed by an illegal allien.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

fuck them dont need their service, lets try a crazy experiment and see how we get along without them

[boutons_deux]

Repug/right-wing racists have no solution for illegal, diseased brownies.

[hope4dopes]

fuck them dont need their service, lets try a crazy experiment and see how we get along without them
I'm in.

[hope4dopes]

Repug/right-wing racists have no solution the illegal brownies.

Please Rev. Wright try and comport yourself with some dignity.

[hope4dopes]

There are many threads that are discussing illegal alliens because of the health care reform act being debated.

The solution is not a simple one to address. Pro's and Con's on both sides have lamented their points.

What of..instead of...just legallizing the already illegals in this country that if they so wish instead of deportation they were granted Indentured Servitude to this nation?

Health Care would be provided. Granted it would be taken out of their pay. Salaries would be more than they receive now. Many problems of needing to improve infrastructure would be solved. And our tax dollars would not just be wasted while instead actually be used to improving our nation.

College education could be obtained. Tax revenue would increase. And many of the criminal aspect would be eliminated from our prison system. The people that have already gone through the current legal process of citizenship would not be cheated. And if any illegal that is willing to work as Indentured Servitude can find the way to achieve citizenship as granted now would still have that oportunity to do so.

There would be other benefits as well to this nation. Too many that I would care to post because it would make this post way too long.

Point is...if somebody wants to be in this country and receive the benefits...they should be willing to have choices instead of just amnesty.

And before I hear somebody talk about it's not humane. Think about all of our service members who are indentured to serving in the military once they made that choice. If it's good enough for them...it should be more than welcomed by an illegal allien.

[SpurNation]

fuck them dont need their service, lets try a crazy experiment and see how we get along without them

How untrue. They are already employed by many in this country. But tax dollars aren't being garnished for that employment while tax dollars are being used for their existance. That's 2 dollars of tax revenue lost for evey dollar being generated.

Just legalizing the already 20 mil. won't change the fact that others will enter and find the same jobs that, after legalizing the existing, won't have anymore because they would have to work in other areas than who are paying them now who won't be willing to pay a higher amount.

This was a gut check post on my part. But as I think about it even more. Another scenerio would be...Those that pay cheap labor could still do so drawing from a pool of indentured servants of the nation. Only...that money would go directly to the U.S. Government. Hence...having the most wealthy contribute more to the government just as some would like to see happen. Only this way...you wouldn't have to raise their taxes.

And then again...also...there would be a reward to any person turning in any person who knowingly hires any illegal not part of the program.

[Winehole23]

cWGNQIecbcc

[Winehole23]

There's all sorts of abuses possible with contractual servitude. There's good reasons the practice died out here.

[Marcus Bryant]

cWGNQIecbcc

And to think I thought not a soul here would ever get that reference.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

How untruethats what the experiment part would be for

[Winehole23]

And to think I thought not a soul here would ever get that reference.The association was immediate for me.

[hope4dopes]

How untrue. They are already employed by many in this country. But tax dollars aren't being garnished for that employment while tax dollars are being used for their existance. That's 2 dollars of tax revenue lost for evey dollar being generated.

Just legalizing the already 20 mil. won't change the fact that others will enter and find the same jobs that, after legalizing the existing, won't have anymore because they would have to work in other areas than who are paying them now who won't be willing to pay a higher amount.

This was a gut check post on my part. But as I think about it even more. Another scenerio would be...Those that pay cheap labor could still do so drawing from a pool of indentured servants of the nation. Only...that money would go directly to the U.S. Government. Hence...having the most wealthy contribute more to the government just as some would like to see happen. Only this way...you wouldn't have to raise their taxes.

And then again...also...there would be a reward to any person turning in any person who knowingly hires any illegal not part of the program.

You are going to extreme lengths to legitamize amnesty calling it different names.First off we don't need their labor,greedy fucks who want to drive down wages and cut into labor laws need their labor.The jobs they are taking affect the poor and lower middle class who, by having their wages driven down are not only cut off from upward mobility, but put in a downward spiral.This is an assult on the workers of both Mexico and the U.S . With current population growth from immigration our population growth is unsustanable you may want to check out a website called Numbers USA. A corrupt goverment in Mexico that wants to prop up the Oligarchies and corporations and they need to export political malcontents who are trying to loosen the stranglehold the political and bussiness class have on the wealth of Mexico.Wrapping this in some alturlistc mask doesn't make it anything more than it is.

[SpurNation]

There's all sorts of abuses possible with contractual servitude. There's good reasons the practice died out here.

Agreed. But enslaving somebody is not the same as servitude.

Do you think the solution is just granting amnesty?

If we do...then we perpetuate the need for social programs increasing our demand on tax revenue to support those programs.

How is it wrong to allow somebody to have a chance at citizenship by working off that privelage more so wrong than just giving it to them for nothing?

How is this fair to the millions who have already gone the route of becoming legal citizens?

The suggestion in no way implies slavery... though it might seem that way in your thought.

[NoOptionB]

Just let them vote already. :bang

[Marcus Bryant]

Anyways, since immigration and the language have arisen, it's time for a few observations.

First, illegal immigration often serves as the justification for good ol' Americans to explain their failures in life. What better bogeyman for white collar workers to employ than Raul and Jose who will work for shit pay when it's 105 Fahrenheit out, digging ditches? Obviously the professional class is in the crosshairs as you can pick up any illegal off the street and they can put in a solid 12 hours down at the local law or engineering firm. Lest we forget that it's often the professional class who is hiring illegals.

Secondly, yes, illegals cost the taxpayer through their use of public services. Further use will cost the taxpayers more. Currently illegals contribute less than they use in public services, yet the professional class wants them here.

Thirdly, we're all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Some free, some not. In any event, the public services immigrants enjoy today are far greater than what was offered way back when. Also, those immigrants did maintain a separate ethnic and national identity, contrary to current whitewashing.

Fourth, illegal means illegal. There's no other way to sugarcoat it into some kind of politically correct, mealy mouth interpretation. Illegals are here because they benefit those who shape laws and politicians.

Finally, additional immigration would not be a problem for this country if it didn't seek to offer public cradle to grave care, and if we didn't have this latent fear of population growth in our society.

[NoOptionB]

Coincidentally my illegal immigrant friend, or should I say undocumented worker, has picked up a new profession. He's going to be an unlicensed pharmacist.



puff puff pass holmes?

[LnGrrrR]

Spurnation, what's wrong with the green card process we have?

[SpurNation]

You are going to extreme lengths to legitamize amnesty calling it different names.First off we don't need their labor,greedy fucks who want to drive down wages and cut into labor laws need their labor.The jobs they are taking affect the poor and lower middle class who, by having their wages driven down are not only cut off from upward mobility, but put in a downward spiral.This is an assult on the workers of both Mexico and the U.S . With current population growth from immigration our population growth is unsustanable you may want to check out a website called Numbers USA. A corrupt goverment in Mexico that wants to prop up the Oligarchies and corporations and they need to export political malcontents who are trying to loosen the stranglehold the political and bussiness class have on the wealth of Mexico.Wrapping this in some alturlistc mask doesn't make it anything more than it is.

I am not legitimizing amnesty. On the contrary. I am looking at dealing with an issue that is never going to change in this country. Illegals making their way here.

If you think my suggestion won't work...think about the other option...legalizing for free.

And before you go into just deporting all...that will never happen. Not today. The logistics of such wouldn't allow it to happen.

[Winehole23]

Agreed. But enslaving somebody is not the same as servitude.

Do you think the solution is just granting amnesty?No. We need better control of the border, and a legal pathway for the cheap labor business demands.


How is it wrong to allow somebody to have a chance at citizenship by working off that privelage more so wrong than just giving it to them for nothing?This is a bit of a false dilemma. See above.


The suggestion in no way implies slavery... though it might seem that way in your thought.Only if I let you do the talking for me. Fat chance of that.

Indentured servitude leads to slavery. Holders of the indenture will abuse it. It's in their direct economic interest to do so.

It's also contrary to the customary freedom inhabitants of the USA have enjoyed for quite some time, but I can see that troubles you little. It's a big reason others want to come here, and a justifiable point of pride for Americans. You'd like to change that.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to say it's not too well thought out and un-American to boot.

[SpurNation]

Spurnation, what's wrong with the green card process we have?

Nothing. Green Card means one has gone through the government channels to be here legally and work.

As I stated before...if one chooses to go that route and has the ability, finances to do so...great. That system works.

But for those here illegally... that can't afford that route...could have opportunity to become a citizen and privelage of working here through another means and this country would benefit from the tax revenue generated by that other means.

[Marcus Bryant]

I will grant that it's generally in all of our interests to have one class of free individuals (ie "citizen") as far as the state is concerned. We are far too willing to allow individuals in this society to be defined by race, gender, class, nationality, etc....

[Jamtas#2]

Is the thought that if we make them legal, that all the sudden their employment agreements will change and they will stop taking money under the table and request for the goverment to get a portion of their check?

If we are so outraged with the problem, why not make more of an effort to fine those employing them? Our current mentality is like going after drug addicts as the problem rather than the dealers.

[LnGrrrR]

Nothing. Green Card means one has gone through the government channels to be here legally and work.

As I stated before...if one chooses to go that route and has the ability, finances to do so...great. That system works.

But for those here illegally... that can't afford that route...could have opportunity to become a citizen and privelage of working here through another means and this country would benefit from the tax revenue generated by that other means.

Why not just propose an alternate green card program in which illegal citizens are provided temporary housing and food and a government sponsored job? Somewhat like a "Peace Corps" for illegal immigrants. Heck, they could go all out and even teach them a trade!

Of course, conservatives would never go for that.

[boutons_deux]

"why not make more of an effort to fine those employing them"

... because they are voters.

[SpurNation]

No. We need better control of the border, and a legal pathway for the cheap labor business demands.
Agreed. and...My suggestion offers a legal pathway for cheap labor all the while generating tax revenue as well. Current system doesn't do that.


Only if I let you do the talking for me. Fat chance of that.

Oh ...I know that. And I wouldn't respect you as I do if you did.


Indentured servitude leads to slavery. Holders of the indenture will abuse it. It's in their direct economic interest to do so.

I could see this if it were up to individuals or corporations. This would be different being a government program for illegals that would prevent such an event.



It's also contrary to the customary freedom inhabitants of the USA have enjoyed for quite some time, but I can see that troubles you little. It's a big reason others want to come here, and a justifiable point of pride for Americans. You'd like to change that.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to say it's not too well thought out and un-American to boot.

As I respect your views...don't put words in my mouth either.

"Un-American". Wrong. My ancestors paid the price for coming to this country. They didn't have anything "GIVEN" to them. They paid prices like all our ancestors before us.

Most illegals in our country now are living in poverty conditions much worse than we can imagine. I've seen the conditions in which many of them live. Such conditions that warrant and expedite health care problems. Just allowing them to become legal immigrants wouldn't change that status. Indenturing would at least allow them to live in government housing that offers better conditions than the slum lord lots they now reside.

Tell me...what's so American about living in the conditions many illegals are forced to live in now?

I wish you would look at all the language I have submitted instead of singling out just that you disagree.

I am open to suggestions and debate...but not all I've said is as calus as your suggesting.

Again...at least I try to offer suggestion. So many (not you) in this forum only offer hate and ridicule. Talking about un-American.

[Winehole23]

I could see this if it were up to individuals or corporations. This would be different being a government program for illegals that would prevent such an event.I am even less sanguine about leaving indentured servitude in the government's hands than business's. That would be an even worse policy IMO.


"Un-American". Wrong. My ancestors paid the price for coming to this country. They didn't have anything "GIVEN" to them. They paid prices like all our ancestors before us.Not sure what you're driving at. I was talking about the freedom anyone walking around in a free country enjoys. Indentured servitude would change that. I'm not sure how the bad old days justify it.


Most illegals in our country now are living in poverty conditions much worse than we can imagine. I've seen the conditions in which many of them live. Such conditions that warrant and expedite health care problems. Just allowing them to become legal immigrants wouldn't change that status. Indenturing would at least allow them to live in government housing that offers better conditions than the slum lord lots they now reside.
Government run warrens for indentured labor? I wonder how this will go over. Doesn't sound very compassionate to me.


Tell me...what's so American about living in the conditions many illegals are forced to live in now?Forced? I've heard of this happening in the agricultural context. In Florida and various other places. Mostly, immigrant labor in the USA is free to go wherever it wants. I'm not too sure the example you've picked is very representative.


Again...at least I try to offer suggestion. So many (not you) in this forum only offer hate and ridicule. Talking about un-American.I think indentured servitude is un-American and against traditional US values. That doesn't make you un-American -- I just think the idea is, and was holding that up for ridicule.

I don't really doubt your personal bona fides, SpursNation; but I do think your suggestion is pretty messed up.

[LnGrrrR]

WH23, I think he's viewing it more as a "Peace Corps" type initiative. I'm assuming you'd have the same objections?

[Winehole23]

WH23, I think he's viewing it more as a "Peace Corps" type initiative. I'm assuming you'd have the same objections?Make the case. SpursNation hasn't.

I do have a problem with indentured servitude as a premise; I doubt rejiggering the government provided amenities and guarantees would change that.

[Marcus Bryant]

Some would say you should be able to sell yourself into slavery. Some would argue you have in this 24/7/365 Crackberry world. Anyways, yes, it would be preferable to not resuscitate indentured servitude.

[Winehole23]

Some would say you should be able to sell yourself into slavery. Some would argue you have in this 24/7/365 Crackberry world.This point is untrivial. We can limit our own freedom by contract or by default. If we fail to assert our liberties, or to fight the attempts to deprive us of them, we lose them.

[SpurNation]

Make the case. SpursNation hasn't.

I do have a problem with indentured servitude as a premise; I doubt rejiggering the government provided amenities and guarantees would change that.

I'm not in favor of illegals being granted legal status for nothing either. My ancestors and many of the now naturalized American citizens paid too great a price for that privelage.

Indentured Servitude as you remember it is not what I'm suggesting either... and have stated so in this thread.

You have vaild reasons because of the past regarding the suggestion...I respect your concern in that regard...but to say as fact it would be the same in a better controlled environment is as benign as saying it wouldn't.

I would glady accept suggestion from your point of view as to solve this issue as I would anyone elses.

That's what I like to do as an American. I'm tired of the bickering, finger pointing and ridicule without suggestion. That's how things get done...suggestion.

Bickering and ridicule only leads to more havoc and partisan bias.

Again...I respect your opinion WH23. Your intelligence and eloquence with the English language would allow someone like you to be able to make more of a difference (something happen) than somebody of my stature.

[Winehole23]

Indentured Servitude as you remember it is not what I'm suggesting either... and have stated so in this thread.I thought it was. The conditions you attached to it didn't change the premise that much for me. By bad if I misunderstood you. Would you care to clarify your current position?


You have vaild reasons because of the past regarding the suggestion...I respect your concern in that regard...but to say as fact it would be the same in a better controlled environment is as benign as saying it wouldn't.I guess we disagree about the prudence of having a publicly subsidized, government-run indentured labor scheme. It doesn't sound benign to me, having the government define and control a class of unfree workers.


That's what I like to do as an American. I'm tired of the bickering, finger pointing and ridicule without suggestion. That's how things get done...suggestion.

Bickering and ridicule only leads to more havoc and partisan bias.I couldn't agree more.

It's impolite to ridicule people, but I wouldn't say the same about ideas.

I take it you're in agreement now that indentured servitude is a bad idea. Are you?


Again...I respect your opinion WH23. Your intelligence and eloquence with the English language would allow someone like you to be able to make more of a difference (something happen) than somebody of my stature.Eh, I'm not so sure about that. We're all jockeys of the keyboard on a current events board. All not-too-suitably placed to effect change IMO, though I appreciate the compliment.

[SpurNation]

I'm just looking for suggestions as I have posted mine.

Suggestions for a change would be great instead of partisan bickering.

As far as "servitude" as defined in the past...I don't agree with that. But something along the line of "restitution" and or "payment" for the right to be in this country would be more appreciated from my point of view than just having citizenship granted without sacrifice.

That would be a disservice to our ancestors , military personnel and all the people who have taken the "legal" route to naturalization.

And for Obama to suggest we just "legalize" illegal immigrants is beyond comprehension on my part. Especially when so many others have sacrificed so much more to be a citizen of this country.

If we are to just throw our hands up and say "Oh Well" they're here anyway...at least something should be done IMO..to justify and rectify the idea of illegal alliens to become legal.

I don't think some of my points are that off base if it could be done without Indentured Servitude.

Suggestions?

[mogrovejo]

Anyways, since immigration and the language have arisen, it's time for a few observations.

First, illegal immigration often serves as the justification for good ol' Americans to explain their failures in life. What better bogeyman for white collar workers to employ than Raul and Jose who will work for shit pay when it's 105 Fahrenheit out, digging ditches? Obviously the professional class is in the crosshairs as you can pick up any illegal off the street and they can put in a solid 12 hours down at the local law or engineering firm. Lest we forget that it's often the professional class who is hiring illegals.

Secondly, yes, illegals cost the taxpayer through their use of public services. Further use will cost the taxpayers more. Currently illegals contribute less than they use in public services, yet the professional class wants them here.

Thirdly, we're all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Some free, some not. In any event, the public services immigrants enjoy today are far greater than what was offered way back when. Also, those immigrants did maintain a separate ethnic and national identity, contrary to current whitewashing.

Fourth, illegal means illegal. There's no other way to sugarcoat it into some kind of politically correct, mealy mouth interpretation. Illegals are here because they benefit those who shape laws and politicians.

Finally, additional immigration would not be a problem for this country if it didn't seek to offer public cradle to grave care, and if we didn't have this latent fear of population growth in our society.

Yeps. Good post. The only part I disagree is this one: "Illegals are here because they benefit those who shape laws and politicians". Illegals are there because there are jobs available for them and public services to free-ride.

[Winehole23]

But something along the line of "restitution" and or "payment" for the right to be in this country would be more appreciated from my point of view than just having citizenship granted without sacrifice.Has this even been proposed?

[boutons_deux]

"this even been proposed?"

MN said he would have illegals pay a fine for breaking the law, then get in line behind legal applicants for work visas or residency permits. iow, MN is not proposing amnesty.

Immigration knife fight in 2010. Repugs will be ready, will MN?

[SpurNation]

Has this even been proposed?

Good point. Citizenship is definately different than legal status.

I would be concerned it would lead to that without the sacrifices made by those in the past. And legalizing illegals just to "legalize" would still be disservicing those who took the "legal" route in the past.

[Wild Cobra]

If someone wants to allow illegals in, let them take care of them. Just that simple. Make them pay for their health care costs, housing, etc. No federal money to help out.

Let the people put their money where their mouth is. If that means they now have an indentured servant. So be it.