First rocky planet found outside solar system

[tlongII]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/09/16/new.rocky.planet/index.html

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/TECH/space/09/16/new.rocky.planet/art.planet.courtesy.jpg

(CNN) -- Scientists have discovered the first confirmed Earthlike planet outside our solar system, they announced Wednesday.

"This is the first confirmed rocky planet in another system," astronomer Artie Hatzes told CNN, contrasting the solid planet with gaseous ones like Jupiter and Saturn.

But "Earthlike" is a relative term.

The planet's composition may be similar to that of Earth, but its environment is more like a vision of hell, the project's lead astronomer said.

It is so close to the star it orbits "that the place may well look like Dante's Inferno, with a probable temperature on its 'day face' above 3,600 degrees Fahrenheit (2,000 degrees Celsius) and minus-328 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 200 degrees Celsius) on its night face," said Didier Queloz of Geneva Observatory in Switzerland, the project leader.

Hatzes, explaining that one side of the body is always facing the star and the other side always faces away, said the side "facing the sun is probably molten. The other side could actually have ice" if there is water on the planet.

"We think it has no atmosphere to redistribute the heat," Hatzes told CNN from Barcelona, Spain, where he is attending the "Pathways Towards Habitable Planets" conference.

The astronomers were stunned to find a rocky planet so near a star, he said.

"We would have never dreamed you would find a rocky planet so close," he said. "Its year is less than one of our days."

The planet, known as CoRoT-7b, was detected early last year, but it took months of observation to determine that it had a composition roughly similar to Earth's, the European Southern Observatory said in a statement.

Astronomers were able to measure the dimensions of the planet by watching as it passed in front of the star it orbits, then carried out 70 hours of study of the planet's effect on its star to infer its weight.

With that information in hand, they were able to calculate its density -- and were thrilled with what they found, Hatzes said.

"What makes this exciting is you compare the density of this planet to the planets in our solar system, it's only Mercury, Venus and Earth that are similar," Hatzes, of the Thuringer observatory in Germany, told CNN.

They were helped by the fact that CoRoT-7b is relatively close to Earth -- about 500 light years away, in the constellation of Monoceros, the Unicorn.

"It's in our solar neighborhood," Hatzes said. "The thing that made it easier is it's relatively close, so it's relatively bright. If this star was much much farther away, we wouldn't have been able to do these measurements."

At about five times Earth's mass (though not quite twice as large in circumference), it is the smallest planet ever spotted outside our solar system.

It also has the fastest orbit. The planet whizzes around its star more than seven times faster than Earth moves, and is 23 times closer to the star than Mercury is to our sun.

The planet was first detected early in 2008 by the CoRoT satellite, a 30-centimeter space telescope launched by the European Space Agency in December 2006, specifically with the mission of detecting rocky planets outside the solar system.

At least 42 scientists at 17 institutions on three continents worked on the project.

They are publishing their findings in a special issue of the Astronomy and Astrophysics journal on October 22 as "The CoRoT-7 Planetary System: Two Orbiting Super-Earths."

[TDMVPDPOY]

we are better off trying to inhabit mars underground, then tryin to reach these so called destinations which are 20+ light years away....

[DarkReign]

we are better off trying to inhabit mars underground, then tryin to reach these so called destinations which are 20+ light years away....

I think you might have assumed a little too much. The term Earth-like doesnt mean habitable or even if it were, that humanity would even want to.

[BlackSwordsMan]

waste of money
there aint shit out there but rocks and dust

[iggypop123]

has NASA done anything other than the MRI?

[MiamiHeat]

http://www.luxurybedsets.com/files/1406200/uploaded/memory%20foam.jpg

[Cyrano]

Screw the rocks. They need to find the planets with the green dancing girls. Or was Roddenberry lying to us?

[ManuTP9]

Aliens live underground on mars.

[MiamiHeat]

colonize mars please

[Death In June]

we are better off trying to inhabit mars underground, then tryin to reach these so called destinations which are 20+ light years away....I say, go for the 20+ light year planets. Mars is a piece of shit. I don't pretend to know anything about astrophysics outside of reading a history of time, but apparently, there's a way to bend space - sort of pinch it off at a point by traveling at the speed of light. That'd make going many light years away a lot quicker.

[MiamiHeat]

I say, go for the 20+ light year planets. Mars is a piece of shit. I don't pretend to know anything about astrophysics outside of reading a history of time, but apparently, there's a way to bend space - sort of pinch it off at a point by traveling at the speed of light. That'd make going many light years away a lot quicker.

It's all science fiction garbage as far as I'm concerned. There is no way to travel the vast distances of space effectively.

[Desert Plains]

It's all science fiction garbage as far as I'm concerned. There is no way to travel the vast distances of space effectively.


This coming from a person who thinks w/o monkeys he would't be here? :lmao

[23LeBronJames23]

i bet thats the hell planet

[MiamiHeat]

This coming from a person who thinks w/o monkeys he would't be here? :lmao

This coming from a person who thinks an invisible boogie man is watching him from the sky and just snapped his fingers and everything magically came into being? :lmao

[BlackSwordsMan]

This coming from a person who thinks w/o monkeys he would't be here? :lmao

how do you think humans were created? from eggs?

[Desert Plains]

This coming from a person who thinks an invisible boogie man is watching him from the sky and just snapped his fingers and everything magically came into being? :lmao


That's were you are wrong my butt hurt relationship gone sour friend.

I never said I believe in GOD or the Bible I just don't believe in your father Darwin's half baked theories that have never been proven.

[Death In June]

Evolution is only a theory in the sense that it can be expanded on. Evolution is pretty much a fact, dude.

[Desert Plains]

how do you think humans were created? from eggs?

Just because you were not here when it all started and your little red bull induced mind can't begin to comprehend the complexity of this subject? you get a pass and you should do some more research before engaging in a topic you know little about. (just a heads up)

:wakeup

[Desert Plains]

Evolution is only a theory in the sense that it can be expanded on.

Translation:It's the only thing that makes sense to me, so I am going with this theory so my head doesn't explode.




Evolution is pretty much a fact, dude.

There went your credibility on this subject please feel free to exit the topic save yourself any more embarrassment.

[Death In June]

I'm curious to see what "research" you've done, or any education you have on any of the biological sciences. I can sit here and talk to you about speciation, convergence/divergence, homologs/paralogs, antigenic shifts/drifts, mutations, consensus sequences, natural selection, genomics, or the conditions on which self replicating organisms appeared (protobions, reducing atmosphere, thermal vents, and precursor molecules). It doesn't mean you're going to understand any of it, because you don't have the proper context. You sound like some backwoods redneck without an education.

[Desert Plains]

You sound like some backwoods redneck without an education.



.
There went your credibility on this subject please feel free to exit the topic save yourself any more embarrassment.

[E-1101]

I'm curious to see what "research" you've done, or any education you have on any of the biological sciences. I can sit here and talk to you about speciation, convergence/divergence, homologs/paralogs, antigenic shifts/drifts, mutations, consensus sequences, natural selection, genomics, or the conditions on which self replicating organisms appeared (protobions, reducing atmosphere, thermal vents, and precursor molecules). It doesn't mean you're going to understand any of it, because you don't have the proper context. You sound like some backwoods redneck without an education.


I can see those text books did their job your all fucked up! :lmao

[Alex Jones]

I can sit here and talk to you about speciation, convergence/divergence, homologs/paralogs, antigenic shifts/drifts, mutations, consensus sequences, natural selection, genomics, or the conditions on which self replicating organisms appeared (protobions, reducing atmosphere, thermal vents, and precursor molecules).

you first!

[Death In June]

Just because you were not here when it all started and your little red bull induced mind can't begin to comprehend the complexity of this subject? you get a pass and you should do some more research before engaging in a topic you know little about. (just a heads up)

:wakeupLook, I understand that people in retail or fast food might just be doing that as their dayjob until their research grant comes in, so I'm not expecting you to be an expert. Just tell me what "research" you did.

[mouse]

I'm curious to see what "research" you've done, or any education you have on any of the biological sciences. I can sit here and talk to you about speciation, convergence/divergence, homologs/paralogs, antigenic shifts/drifts, mutations, consensus sequences, natural selection, genomics, or the conditions on which self replicating organisms appeared (protobions, reducing atmosphere, thermal vents, and precursor molecules). It doesn't mean you're going to understand any of it, because you don't have the proper context. You sound like some backwoods redneck without an education.


This is the Evolutionist oldest trick in the book they try to cloud your mind with such big scientific words to make you feel your an idiot and therefore you will submit and believe in their cause.

Sorry brah been there seen it prove to me man came from ape and I may join in your silly debate....

[mouse]

Look, I understand that people in retail or fast food might just be doing that as their dayjob until their research grant comes in, so I'm not expecting you to be an expert. Just tell me what "research" you did.

(Just a heads up)


You may want to prove your point and lay off the 1992 style of insults your trying to use they only make you look bad.

If your going to use cheesy put downs at least raise the smack bar to the year 2001. :tu

[Re-Animator]

I'm curious to see what "research" you've done, or any education you have on any of the biological sciences. I can sit here and talk to you about speciation, convergence/divergence, homologs/paralogs, antigenic shifts/drifts, mutations, consensus sequences, natural selection, genomics, or the conditions on which self replicating organisms appeared (protobions, reducing atmosphere, thermal vents, and precursor molecules). It doesn't mean you're going to understand any of it, because you don't have the proper context. You sound like some backwoods redneck without an education.


For someone who claims to be this well educated very intelligent individual you sure don't have a clue on how to use basic spell check do you?

[Death In June]

I'm not insulting the guy. Just pointing out that it's kind of dumb to drop some knowledge when you don't know what you're talking about. I don't care enough to do your work for you, if you want to know more about evolution, don't be a lazy fuck.

[Re-Animator]

I'm not insulting the guy. Just pointing out that it's kind of dumb to drop some knowledge when you don't know what you're talking about. I don't care enough to do your work for you, if you want to know more about evolution, don't be a lazy fuck.


One down, who's next?

[z0sa]

I'm curious to see what "research" you've done, or any education you have on any of the biological sciences. I can sit here and talk to you about speciation, convergence/divergence, homologs/paralogs, antigenic shifts/drifts, mutations, consensus sequences, natural selection, genomics, or the conditions on which self replicating organisms appeared (protobions, reducing atmosphere, thermal vents, and precursor molecules). It doesn't mean you're going to understand any of it, because you don't have the proper context. You sound like some backwoods redneck without an education.

Evolution is the ultimate misinterpretation. Men, with their voluminous imaginations, have taken the proof and stretched it far outside the realm of science. Animals can't evolve, they can only adapt. The ones that carry the best - in the context of their current environment - genes for adapting, survive or migrate. The rest don't. That's not evolution, its all pre-written into the code. Just like bacteria, which despite its incredibly small size, carries many times the amount of genetic code found in say, humans. That's why they so easily 'evolve' - they carry infinite amounts of code so they can constantly change to survive in their environment.

[mouse]

I'm not insulting the guy. Just pointing out that it's kind of dumb to drop some knowledge when you don't know what you're talking about. I don't care enough to do your work for you, if you want to know more about evolution, don't be a lazy fuck.

Hold on fella!

Before you dive off your rickety evolution soap box humor us and gives us an insight on your vast education and what books your quoting from.

you see we can be just as curious as you.

[Death In June]

For someone who claims to be this well educated very intelligent individual you sure don't have a clue on how to use basic spell check do you?I never said I was smart, and yeah, I'll admit, I sounded like a douche. But that guy is a moron, and calling out other people for not knowing something you don't know, is kind of retarded.

[mouse]

I never said I was smart, and yeah, I'll admit, I sounded like a douche. But that guy is a moron, and calling out other people for not knowing something you don't know, is kind of retarded.

This may very well be the best quote in weeks!

[Death In June]

And mouse, if you have an actual interest in proof, you can take one species, place it in two different conditions, and they will eventually become two species. You can do it with pretty much anything that has a short lifespan.

[mouse]

That's called micro evolution it's when you get different dogs using a fox or a wolf, or you can put a pony and a zebra together and get a fucked up Mule.

That is nothing new and I don't argue it's real. But we are talking about Evolution were you take a fish and it becomes a gorilla and then a man like you and your brain washed Darwin lovers claim took place 450 Billion years ago that I have a problem with.

[MiamiHeat]

That's called micro evolution it's when you get different dogs using a fox or a wolf, or you can put a pony and a zebra together and get a fucked up Mule.

That is nothing new and I don't argue it's real. But we are talking about Evolution were you take a fish and it becomes a gorilla and then a man like you and your brain washed Darwin lovers claim took place 450 Billion years ago that I have a problem with.

Micro evolution can lead to macro evolution given enough time, and humans aren't exactly old. We are the new kids on the block in the history of earth.

[Beastie Boys Robot]

intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary intergalactic intergalactic planetary planetary 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[Beastie Boys Robot]

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[BlackSwordsMan]

Now don't you tell me to smile

[BlackSwordsMan]

awesome song I feel like listening to it

[mouse]

Micro evolution can lead to macro evolution given enough time, and humans aren't exactly old. We are the new kids on the block in the history of earth.

You could be right! after all who knows maybe tomorrow someone will find the missing link, or maybe on Mars they find a taking gorilla. I won't argue with you about if we came from a fish or an alien creature placed us here. I just won't sit back and let you so called book smart experts tell me the earth is anywhere near a billion years old. that shit doesn't make any sense and I will disagree with you all day long on that subject.

[z0sa]

Micro evolution can lead to macro evolution given enough time

Prove it. I know you can't. No one can, whether its true or not. It can be speculated upon, which it has. But not proven.

[23LeBronJames23]

how do you think humans were created? from eggs?

were did monkeys come from?

[mojorizen7]

we are better off trying to inhabit mars underground, then tryin to reach these so called destinations which are 20+ light years away....

Yep. Terraforming Mars is easier than many might think.

[mouse]

Yep. Terraforming Mars is easier than many might think.

Dude they still haven't completed fixing ground zero and you want them to start a project on Mars? :lmao

[phyzik]

Im not going to argue with anyone, but I will say this.

If some apocolypse where to happen I'd rather count on my own ability to survive rather than rely on some supposed magical man in the sky to save me.

just saying.

If there is such a being he knows who I am and if he is that good, he should know Im not a bad person regardless of the fact that I dont visit his millions of houses on Sunday.

Having said that, how did this turn into yet another religion thread?

[BlackSwordsMan]

were did monkeys come from?

lebron james

[mojorizen7]

Dude they still haven't completed fixing ground zero and you want them to start a project on Mars? :lmao

Doesn't change the fact....dude. :wakeup

[mouse]

Doesn't change the fact....dude. :wakeup

How can it be fact if its never been proven, and how can it be proven if its never been done?

I will see your :wakeup and raise you a :lmao

[nuclearfm]

It's funny how just a general science thread get turns into a talk about evolution from nutjobs.

Note to the nutjobs. Earth is not 5,000 years old. Evolution and Creationism are not the same thing. Evolution has a lot of evidence and just about considered fact nowadays. In no way does evolution eliminate a creator, it just describes progression.

Get your heads out of your ass.

[Fpoonsie]

I can see those text books did their job your all fucked up! :lmao


This is the Evolutionist oldest trick in the book they try to cloud your mind with such big scientific words to make you feel your an idiot and therefore you will submit and believe in their cause.


Hold on fella!

Before you dive off your rickety evolution soap box humor us and gives us an insight on your vast education and what books your quoting from.

you see we can be just as curious as you.


How can it be fact if its never been proven, and how can it be proven if its never been done?

I will see your :wakeup and raise you a :lmao


For someone who claims to be this well educated very intelligent individual you sure don't have a clue on how to use basic spell check do you?

And you wanna call someone else out for THEIR lame "smack"? :rolleyes

Ass.

[z0sa]

It's funny how just a general science thread get turns into a talk about evolution from nutjobs.

Note to the nutjobs. Earth is not 5,000 years old. Evolution and Creationism are not the same thing. Evolution has a lot of evidence and just about considered fact nowadays. In no way does evolution eliminate a creator, it just describes progression.

Get your heads out of your ass.

First off, creationism can involve evolution.

Second, you've already put forth multiple clueless posts in the political forum, so maybe you should take your own advice and "get your head out of your ass."

Third, hundreds of well to do scientists profess creationism, many specifically YE creationism. They are probably smarter and definitely more knowledgable than you. My point here is that your explicit statements like "earth is not [young]" or "evolution has a lot of evidence" are bogus. They are simply different interpretations of the same evidence. More or less evidence does not exist, just different interpretations.

[z0sa]

If there is such a being he knows who I am and if he is that good, he should know Im not a bad person regardless of the fact that I dont visit his millions of houses on Sunday.

Yeah. Fucking. Right. You're the definition of a hypocrite, and if there is a hell, you're headed straight there. Hope you're enjoying the flight, dumbass.

[BlackSwordsMan]

^^ very chrisitan like

[z0sa]

^^ very chrisitan like

you shouldn't assume things you have no clue about

[Fpoonsie]

Yeah. Fucking. Right. You're the definition of a hypocrite, and if there is a hell, you're headed straight there. Hope you're enjoying the flight, dumbass.

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

Ephesians 4:29

...pot...kettle...and so forth...

[Fpoonsie]

And before you call me out for assumptions, I'm simply offering advice on possibly avoiding the "h" word.

[OceaNus]

How can it be fact if its never been proven, and how can it be proven if its never been done?

I will see your :wakeup and raise you a :lmao

It's called common sense. He was just stating that it would be faster to colonize mars than travel light years away to do it. Anyways, great find. Hope we can someday find an Earth twin.

[z0sa]

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

Ephesians 4:29

...pot...kettle...and so forth...

When have I ever professed Christianity on these boards? Never. Just because I believe we are definitely created, and find it more likely that the earth is far younger than reckoned by most, doesn't mean I'm some Bible-thumping Christian fundamentalist. You'll never see me on some hellbent mission from god to convert all the lesser beings than myself. I don't believe in that nonsense.

Second, I called him out because of his inhumane acts of torture he was recently bragging about. So "pot, kettle" is misused. If you find me to be a hypocrite for some reason, fine, but I don't go around telling people the gods would ultimate find me a good person right after bragging about torturing and murdering higher orders of animals that surely feel pain.

[MiamiHeat]

First off, creationism can involve evolution.


No it can't

Genesis clearly states the judeo-christian god created all things

[E-1101]

No it can't

Genesis clearly states the judeo-christian god created all things


Genesis 1:24-31

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[mouse]

It's called common sense.

Well hell if your going to pull out the "common sense" card then this topic should not have been made, and we are wasting time replying to it.

/thread

[MiamiHeat]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[MiamiHeat]

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good

--------------------
Genesis 2:21
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
-----------


so, judeo-christian religion believes man was instantenously/magically created in an instant after god's image.

[MiamiHeat]

so as we have shown, Creationism has no space for evolution.

[LnGrrrR]

Umm evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. So god COULD have created everything but also provided for a means for them to change, like evolution.

Those who are saying "macro" evolution isn't possible because we've never witnessed are being somewhat silly. Of course we haven't, we haven't been aroundthat long. However, the fossil record shows a few examples of transitional fossils. And these fossils have been dated around the time the theory says they should be.

Is evolution theory perfect? Of course not; there are holes. But instead of just trying to poke holes in evolution, maybe the critics would prefer to air an alternate theory. One that doesn't involve the ubiquitous "god" theory.

[MiamiHeat]

Umm evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. So god COULD have created everything but also provided for a means for them to change, like evolution.

Wrong.

The Judeo-Christian creation myth clearly states God made man in his own image, in an instant. Not through evolution. It doesn't matter if you want to argue that all other animals on this earth were created by God and went through evolution. HUMANS were made in an instant, by god, in his own image. That's creationism and it therefore cannot co-exist with evolution.

If humans were created in an instant by god, evolution cannot be lumped in with creationism.

[E-1101]

well hell if your going to pull out the "common sense" card then this topic should not have been made, and we are wasting time replying to it.

/thread

+1

[BadOdor]

lol creationism.

[LnGrrrR]

Wrong.

The Judeo-Christian creation myth clearly states God made man in his own image, in an instant. Not through evolution. It doesn't matter if you want to argue that all other animals on this earth were created by God and went through evolution. HUMANS were made in an instant, by god, in his own image. That's creationism and it therefore cannot co-exist with evolution.

If humans were created in an instant by god, evolution cannot be lumped in with creationism.

Eovlution is not abiogenesis. Evolution is merely the process of evolving. It does not explain life from non-life.

So yes, it's possible to say that God made us in his image, but he also provided us the ability to evolve.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, theologically speaking, but it's logically viable.

Edit: Note: If you're assuming that we look as God does now, then yes, you'd be right. However, there's nothing in the Bible I know of that states that God looks exactly as we do now.

Also, many people still believe in creationism, but they do not take the Bible literally. (Ie. they believe God created everything, but not exactly as the book says.)

[symple19]

Every time this troll shows up I listen to that song. Beasties are the shit

[z0sa]

Those who are saying "macro" evolution isn't possible because we've never witnessed are being somewhat silly. Of course we haven't, we haven't been aroundthat long.

Only as silly as those making the opposite statements like "macro evolution DOES happen because we see animals adapt to their environment NOW."

Second, transitional fossils don't exist - They're simply different adaptations of living or extinct animals. Where's the evidence against this interpretation? There is none. it's just unpopular because it denotes evolution is a rather "silly" - and unprovable - assumption when contrasted with its 'evidence.'

The most important fact evolution apologists overlook with incredible consistency is this: "microevolution" (actually adaptation) is completely pre-written into their DNA. No mutation or actual evolution is involved. How does something pre-written lead to code being re-written and extended?

[tlongII]

Only as silly as those making the opposite statements like "macro evolution DOES happen because we see animals adapt to their environment NOW."

Second, transitional fossils don't exist - They're simply different adaptations of living or extinct animals. Where's the evidence against this interpretation? There is none. it's just unpopular because it denotes evolution is a rather "silly" - and unprovable - assumption when contrasted with its 'evidence.'

The most important fact evolution apologists overlook with incredible consistency is this: "microevolution" (actually adaptation) is completely pre-written into their DNA. No mutation or actual evolution is involved. How does something pre-written lead to code being re-written and extended?

That is completely untrue.


There are now several known cases of species-to-species transitions that resulted in the first members of new higher taxa.

Why do gaps exist? (or seem to exist)
Ideally, of course, we would like to know each lineage right down to the species level, and have detailed species-to-species transitions linking every species in the lineage. But in practice, we get an uneven mix of the two, with only a few species-to-species transitions, and occasionally long time breaks in the lineage. Many laypeople even have the (incorrect) impression that the situation is even worse, and that there are no known transitions at all. Why are there still gaps? And why do many people think that there are even more gaps than there really are?

Stratigraphic gaps
The first and most major reason for gaps is "stratigraphic discontinuities", meaning that fossil-bearing strata are not at all continuous. There are often large time breaks from one stratum to the next, and there are even some times for which no fossil strata have been found. For instance, the Aalenian (mid-Jurassic) has shown no known tetrapod fossils anywhere in the world, and other stratigraphic stages in the Carboniferous, Jurassic, and Cretaceous have produced only a few mangled tetrapods. Most other strata have produced at least one fossil from between 50% and 100% of the vertebrate families that we know had already arisen by then (Benton, 1989) -- so the vertebrate record at the family level is only about 75% complete, and much less complete at the genus or species level. (One study estimated that we may have fossils from as little as 3% of the species that existed in the Eocene!) This, obviously, is the major reason for a break in a general lineage. To further complicate the picture, certain types of animals tend not to get fossilized -- terrestrial animals, small animals, fragile animals, and forest-dwellers are worst. And finally, fossils from very early times just don't survive the passage of eons very well, what with all the folding, crushing, and melting that goes on. Due to these facts of life and death, there will always be some major breaks in the fossil record.

Species-to-species transitions are even harder to document. To demonstrate anything about how a species arose, whether it arose gradually or suddenly, you need exceptionally complete strata, with many dead animals buried under constant, rapid sedimentation. This is rare for terrestrial animals. Even the famous Clark's Fork (Wyoming) site, known for its fine Eocene mammal transitions, only has about one fossil per lineage about every 27,000 years. Luckily, this is enough to record most episodes of evolutionary change (provided that they occurred at Clark's Fork Basin and not somewhere else), though it misses the most rapid evolutionary bursts. In general, in order to document transitions between species, you specimens separated by only tens of thousands of years (e.g. every 20,000-80,000 years). If you have only one specimen for hundreds of thousands of years (e.g. every 500,000 years), you can usually determine the order of species, but not the transitions between species. If you have a specimen every million years, you can get the order of genera, but not which species were involved. And so on. These are rough estimates (from Gingerich, 1976, 1980) but should give an idea of the completeness required.

Note that fossils separated by more than about a hundred thousand years cannot show anything about how a species arose. Think about it: there could have been a smooth transition, or the species could have appeared suddenly, but either way, if there aren't enough fossils, we can't tell which way it happened.

Discovery of the fossils
The second reason for gaps is that most fossils undoubtedly have not been found. Only two continents, Europe and North America, have been adequately surveyed for fossil-bearing strata. As the other continents are slowly surveyed, many formerly mysterious gaps are being filled (e.g., the long-missing rodent/lagomorph ancestors were recently found in Asia). Of course, even in known strata, the fossils may not be uncovered unless a roadcut or quarry is built (this is how we got most of our North American Devonian fish fossils), and may not be collected unless some truly dedicated researcher spends a long, nasty chunk of time out in the sun, and an even longer time in the lab sorting and analyzing the fossils. Here's one description of the work involved in finding early mammal fossils: "To be a successful sorter demands a rare combination of attributes: acute observation allied with the anatomical knowledge to recognise the mammalian teeth, even if they are broken or abraded, has to be combined with the enthusiasm and intellectual drive to keep at the boring and soul-destroying task of examining tens of thousands of unwanted fish teeth to eventually pick out the rare mammalian tooth. On an average one mammalian tooth is found per 200 kg of bone-bed." (Kermack, 1984.)

Documenting a species-to-species transition is particularly grueling, as it requires collection and analysis of hundreds of specimens. Typically we must wait for some paleontologist to take it on the job of studying a certain taxon in a certain site in detail. Almost nobody did this sort of work before the mid-1970's, and even now only a small subset of researchers do it. For example, Phillip Gingerich was one of the first scientists to study species-species transitions, and it took him ten years to produce the first detailed studies of just two lineages (see part 2, primates and condylarths). In a (later) 1980 paper he said: "the detailed species level evolutionary patterns discussed here represent only six genera in an early Wasatchian fauna containing approximately 50 or more mammalian genera, most of which remain to be analyzed." [emphasis mine]

Getting the word out
There's a third, unexpected reason that transitions seem so little known. It's that even when they are found, they're not popularized. The only times a transitional fossil is noticed much is if it connects two noticably different groups (such as the "walking whale" fossil reported in 1993), or if illustrates something about the tempo and mode of evolution (such as Gingerich's work). Most transitional fossils are only mentioned in the primary literature, often buried in incredibly dense and tedious "skull & bones" papers utterly inaccessible to the general public. Later references to those papers usually collapse the known species-to-species sequences to the genus or family level. The two major college-level textbooks of vertebrate paleontology (Carroll 1988, and Colbert & Morales 1991) often don't even describe anything below the family level! And finally, many of the species-to-species transitions were described too recently to have made it into the books yet.

Why don't paleontologists bother to popularize the detailed lineages and species-to-species transitions? Because it is thought to be unnecessary detail. For instance, it takes an entire book to describe the horse fossils even partially (e.g. MacFadden's "Fossil Horses"), so most authors just collapse the horse sequence to a series of genera. Paleontologists clearly consider the occurrence of evolution to be a settled question, so obvious as to be beyond rational dispute, so, they think, why waste valuable textbook space on such tedious detail?

[MiamiHeat]

tlongII with the smackdown of z0sa. doubt he shows his face again after that

[mouse]

transitional fossils don't exist


That is completely untrue.


Show us all one then, oh great wise TlongII

afterwards lets see your tight ass buy us all beer with your 7.5 trillion dollars you collect.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2008/10/palaeontologists-this-could-be.html

October 10, 2008 12:11 PM
$7.5 trillion for a 'transitional' fossil?
Palaeontologists: this could be your lucky day. Turkish creationist Adnan Oktar has just offered ten trillion lira - a mouth-watering $7.5 trillion - to "anyone who produces a single intermediate-form fossil demonstrating evolution".

[mouse]

tlongII with the smackdown of z0sa. doubt he shows his face again after that

So smack is what your really after not the truth?

[tlongII]

Show us all one then, oh great wise TlongII

afterwards lets see your tight ass buy us all beer with your 7.5 trillion dollars you collect.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2008/10/palaeontologists-this-could-be.html

October 10, 2008 12:11 PM
$7.5 trillion for a 'transitional' fossil?
Palaeontologists: this could be your lucky day. Turkish creationist Adnan Oktar has just offered ten trillion lira - a mouth-watering $7.5 trillion - to "anyone who produces a single intermediate-form fossil demonstrating evolution".

Here's one for you! It's a Basilosaurus.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gingeric/PDGwhales/PDG20050339.jpg

How do I get my money?

[tlongII]

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gingeric/PDGwhales/PDGanthtodoruskel.jpg

[z0sa]

That is completely untrue.

:lol riiight, that article was supposed to demonstrate it, how? By making a shitload of excuses about why there's not far more transitional fossils, or why they're not popularized?

I'm not going to argue this subject any further as it was only my intention to defend the position, and don't ever make me read yet another template every other researcher uses to explain away the fact their findings make little sense in the broader frame and everyone knows it. My goodness what a msiplaced article, "we don't talk about transitional fossils because you wouldn't understand!" Then cue miamiretard, "It doesn't matter, Every fossil is transitional because Darwin said so!"

I don't care what you believe. Science told you to believe it, that's fine, as long as you don't force those beliefs down my throat we're all good.

[tlongII]

:lol riiight, that article was supposed to demonstrate it, how? By making a shitload of excuses about why there's not far more transitional fossils, or why they're not popularized?

I'm not going to argue this subject any further as it was only my intention to defend the position, and don't ever make me read yet another template every other researcher uses to explain away the fact their findings make little sense in the broader frame and everyone knows it. My goodness what a fucking dumb article, "we don't talk about transitional fossils because you wouldn't understand!" Then cue miamiretard, "Every fossil is transitional because Darwin said so!"

Baloney. You stated that ZERO transitional fossils have been discovered. I demonstrated that your statement is completely false. As far as how much sense their findings make... I don't know how anyone can make it clearer to you? I find it surprising that you can't or won't accept the mountains of evidence in support of evolution.

[z0sa]

Baloney. You stated that ZERO transitional fossils have been discovered. I demonstrated that your statement is completely false. As far as how much sense their findings make... I don't know how anyone can make it clearer to you? I find it surprising that you can't or won't accept the mountains of evidence in support of evolution.

Zero transitional fossils have been discovered, IMO. You and many scientists disagree, that's fine.

And evolution studies today completely revolve around microevolution, which is adaptation. Most "in the field" work is about adaptation, very little is done with macroevolution which continues to be swept under the rug as 'fact' without nearly enough conclusive evidence IMO. Therefore, it is adaptation where the mountains of evidence pile up.

[mouse]

Here's one for you! It's a Basilosaurus.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gingeric/PDGwhales/PDG20050339.jpg

How do I get my money?

I already posted the link why not send them your cut and paste from Google they could use a good laugh.

You think because you post a few whale bones and some drawings the whole evolution theory is correct? I thought you actually had some knowledge in these matters, and if you did have any you would know your hero Ernst Haeckel who made embryo charts that allowed Darwin to believe in Evolution in the first place was later convicted of fraud.

Australopithecus AfarensisafarensisOntogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny?
Haekel’s faked embryonic drawings

http://www.nwcreation.net/images/haeckel.jpg

Haekel’s EmbryosThe theory of embryonic recapitulation asserts that the human fetus goes through various stages of its evolutionary history as it develops. Ernst Haeckel proposed this theory in the late 1860’s, promoting Darwin’s theory of evolution in Germany. He made detailed drawings of the embryonic development of eight different embryos in three stages of development, to bolster his claim. His work was hailed as a great development in the understanding of human evolution. A few years later his drawings were shown to have been fabricated, and the data manufactured. He blamed the artist for the discrepancies, without admitting that he was the artist. (source: Russell Grigg, "Fraud Rediscovered", Creation, Vol. 20, No. 2, pp.49-51)



Let me go find a piece of wood in the dirt and claim Noah's ark was real and lets see how fast you respond that I am insane.

As far as your Moby Dick whale theory goes.....

It is important to understand that, in calling these creatures a “series of transitional fossils,” the evolutionist does not mean that they form an actual lineage of ancestors and descendants. On the contrary, they readily acknowledge that these archaeocetes “cannot be strung in procession from ancestor to descendant in a scala naturae.”[17 ] What they mean is that these fossils show a progressive development within Archaeoceti of certain features found in the later, fully marine forms such as Basilosaurus. (The specific features relate mainly to the middle ear and the appendicular skeleton.) This progression of features is believed to correspond to changes that were occurring in the actual basilosaurid lineage.

http://www.trueorigin.org/whales.asp

[mouse]

Baloney. You stated that ZERO transitional fossils have been discovered. I demonstrated that your statement is completely false.

Then you should have no problem collecting your money.

[The Power Hour]

Interesting thread.

[z0sa]

It is important to understand that, in calling these creatures a “series of transitional fossils,” the evolutionist does not mean that they form an actual lineage of ancestors and descendants.

Strong support for my point.

[BacktoBasics]

Zero transitional fossils have been discovered, IMO. You and many scientists disagree, that's fine.

And evolution studies today completely revolve around microevolution, which is adaptation. Most "in the field" work is about adaptation, very little is done with macroevolution which continues to be swept under the rug as 'fact' without nearly enough conclusive evidence IMO. Therefore, it is adaptation where the mountains of evidence pile up.
There have been more than a few cases of macroevolution just in the last 50 years. Particularly in plantlife if I remember correctly. Obviously microevolution is alive and well working right under our own noses. We don't need fossils for that we have live working models and case studies.

[mouse]

And the sad part about all this bullshit the mans drawings are still in the children's text books.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-1600847.png

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-1601406.png

[BacktoBasics]

And the sad part about all this bullshit the mans drawings are still in the children's text books.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-1600847.png

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-1601406.png
Old and out of date text that's rarely being used. The fact that you people continually bring this up shows how desperate you really are. Show me a current text book from any one of the schools in SA. You won't find the above. Maybe Hickville in the deep deep woods of Necktown.

[z0sa]

There have been more than a few cases of macroevolution just in the last 50 years. Particularly in plantlife if I remember correctly. Obviously microevolution is alive and well working right under our own noses. We don't need fossils for that we have live working models and case studies.

take it for what its worth, since you cite no sources yuorself:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_proof_for_macro_evolution

Answer

Although many examples are produced, when examined closely, they often could be interpreted differently under another paradigm. Some of the evolutionary arguments for vestigial organs and embryonic recapitulation have turned out to be either fallacious or fraudulent (in the case of the latter).

Like I was just saying ... same evidence, different interpretations.


Answer
You believe in micro evolution do you not? If so then you must accept macro evolution as it is micro evolution on a grander scale

Just ... :lol science doesn't work that way



Answer
The evidence does not support it... case in point: antibacterial soap... the bacteria are microevolving, but the whole time, they remain bacteria. The DNA information is so specific, (according to Richard Dawkins, equal to 30 sets of the Encyclopedia Brittanica) and ordered in such a way, it has never been observed or proven to occur, in any single celled creature or multi-celled creature.

An unnamed source considers you wrong, and like previously mentioned, your 'evidence' could be quite the contrary when viewed from a different perspective.

I'm not arguing my point - I'm just saying the interpretation is everything.

[RichardSimmons]

I think some of you are from Uranus.

[BacktoBasics]

Particularly Haeckel's. You won't find his shit anywhere in modern day text books. What a joke to even post it.

[BacktoBasics]

take it for what its worth, since you cite no sources yuorself:



I'm not up for digging around. Do you believe in micro evolution?

[z0sa]

I'm not up for digging around. Do you believe in micro evolution?

There is no believing in 'microevolution' (I call it adaptation, because that's what it is IMO, not initial stages of miniature stage macroevolution). It is a fact that animals must adapt to their surroundings to survive, and natural selection and survival of the fittest is completely within those boundaries genetically speaking. The difference between the two is that I'm fully aware one species of bird can quickly move away from previous incarnations quickly, but not completely. Evolution delves into fantasy by stating a bird would ever change into anything else other than a different type of bird.

[MiamiHeat]

Y4yBvvGi_2A

[mouse]

There have been more than a few cases of macroevolution just in the last 50 years. Particularly in plantlife if I remember correctly. Obviously microevolution is alive and well working right under our own noses. We don't need fossils for that we have live working models and case studies.


No one I know of is disputing micro evolution is here. Everyone knows you can put
a tiger in a room with a lion and come up with a Liger.

http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainn ameatlonglast.com/Animals/liger.JPG


It's when you and your Darwin worshiping pals slip in macro evolution under the kids noses and past the text books that is a problem it has not been proven you can't get a dog from a cucumber or a monkey from a rock like Evolution claims took place Billions of years ago.


What Is The Difference Between Macroevolution And Microevolution?
by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

There is much misinformation about these two words, and yet, understanding them is perhaps the crucial prerequisite for understanding the creation/evolution issue.

Macroevolution refers to major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. Examples of this would be fish descending from an invertebrate animal, or whales descending from a land mammal. The evolutionary concept demands these bizarre changes.

Microevolution refers to varieties within a given type. Change happens within a group, but the descendant is clearly of the same type as the ancestor. This might better be called variation, or adaptation, but the changes are "horizontal" in effect, not "vertical." Such changes might be accomplished by "natural selection," in which a trait within the present variety is selected as the best for a given set of conditions, or accomplished by "artificial selection," such as when dog breeders produce a new breed of dog.

The small or microevolutionary changes occur by recombining existing genetic material within the group. As Gregor Mendel observed with his breeding studies on peas in the mid 1800's, there are natural limits to genetic change. A population of organisms can vary only so much. What causes macroevolutionary change?

Genetic mutations produce new genetic material, but do these lead to macroevolution? No truly useful mutations have ever been observed. The one most cited is the disease sickle-cell anemia, which provides an enhanced resistance to malaria. How could the occasionally deadly disease of SSA ever produce big-scale change?

Evolutionists assume that the small, horizontal microevolutionary changes (which are observed) lead to large, vertical macroevolutionary changes (which are never observed). This philosophical leap of faith lies at the eve of evolution thinking.

A review of any biology textbook will include a discussion of microevolutionary changes. This list will include the variety of beak shape among the finches of the Galapagos Islands, Darwin's favorite example. Always mentioned is the peppered moth in England, a population of moths whose dominant color shifted during the Industrial Revolution, when soot covered the trees. Insect populations become resistant to DDT, and germs become resistant to antibiotics. While in each case, observed change was limited to microevolution, the inference is that these minor changes can be extrapolated over many generations to macroevolution.

In 1980 about 150 of the world's leading evolutionary theorists gathered at the University of Chicago for a conference entitled "Macroevolution." Their task: "to consider the mechanisms that underlie the origin of species" (Lewin, Science vol. 210, pp. 883-887). "The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution . . . the answer can be given as a clear, No."

Thus the scientific observations support the creation tenet that each basic type is separate and distinct from all others, and that while variation is inevitable, macroevolution does not and did not happen.

[mouse]

Particularly Haeckel's. You won't find his shit anywhere in modern day text books. What a joke to even post it.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-1623288.png

[BacktoBasics]

Y4yBvvGi_2A
Thanks for the laugh

[BacktoBasics]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-1623288.pngWhere is that? Where was the actual text printed and where was it distributed to? Like I said I'm sure there are some backwoods places that have simply rerun text without updating it but for the large and I mean large part you don't find that stuff in modern day text.

Not to nitpick it but if that number is accurate its still almost 12 years old.

[z0sa]

Where is that? Where was the actual text printed and where was it distributed to? Like I said I'm sure there are some backwoods places that have simply rerun text without updating it but for the large and I mean large part you don't find that stuff in modern day text.

Not to nitpick it but if that number is accurate its still almost 12 years old.

I will readily agree with mouse on this one - the amount of bullshit, outright lies, that have been fed the youth of the secular nation up until these past few years is well documented. Many exaggerations and outright deceit have been perpetrated by the scientific community regarding evolution.

[mouse]

There have been more than a few cases of macroevolution just in the last 50 years. Particularly in plantlife if I remember correctly.

You don't, evolution within a species is Micro show me a plant turning into a bird then you can call it Macro


Obviously microevolution is alive and well working right under our own noses. We don't need fossils for that we have live working models and case studies.

Fossils are your worst enemy if your going to try and win a debate. They have been proven wrong and many different species have later been found to be alive today.

But the fossil card is there is you want to use it.

[mouse]

Not to nitpick it but if that number is accurate its still almost 12 years old.


You don't call a 12 year old text book modern but yet you want to bring up shit that happened millions of years ago?

Your circling the drain my friend. :lmao

[BacktoBasics]

I will readily agree with mouse on this one - the amount of bullshit, outright lies, that have been fed the youth of the secular nation up until these past few years is well documented. Many exaggerations and outright deceit have been perpetrated by the scientific community regarding evolution.

Totally agree.


You don't, evolution within a species is Micro show me a plant turning into a bird then you can call it Macro



Fossils are your worst enemy if your going to try and win a debate. They have been proven wrong and many different species have later been found to be alive today.

But the fossil card is there is you want to use it.Just because genetic makeup changes doesn't mean my shoe would now be a horse.


You don't call a 12 year old text book modern but yet you want to bring up shit that happened millions of years ago?

Your circling the drain my friend. :lmaoWe're talking about an understanding that has evolved in the last 150 or so years. So yeah 12 years can absolutely entail massive changes and tons of new info. Your relation of time (millions of years) to my point has zero value in discrediting my opinion. We're not arguing what happened millions of years ago we're arguing the modern interpretation of what happened.

[BacktoBasics]

Carry on, I'll be ejecting shortly. Really just wanted to do an anti religion drive by. I hate god warriors. I hate the baby jesus and I hate you all.

[MiamiHeat]

O4GdZOlPrX8

Transitional Fossils

[mouse]

Carry on, I'll be ejecting shortly.

Smart move while you still have 25% of your Atehists ass intact.


Really just wanted to do an anti religion drive by. I hate god warriors. I hate the baby jesus and I hate you all.

Where Did I post I believe in God, or is defending the Bible?

I am after the truth and exposing lies, feel free to rearm yourself with more Monkey loving ammo and maybe later after a few beers we can continue this debate. :tu

[tlongII]

Perhaps Mouse or z0sa can give a better explanation of the fossil record and how life came to exist in its present form?

[MiamiHeat]

XUcB_HiCKnM

[mouse]

Totally agree.

Just because genetic makeup changes doesn't mean my shoe would now be a horse.

But yet you Atheist's claim 450 Billion years ago the earth was a hot ball of gas and liquid and formed small bacteria that later grew legs and later became a monkey, that means you all claim we all evolved from a rocks.



We're talking about an understanding that has evolved in the last 150 or so years. So yeah 12 years can absolutely entail massive changes and tons of new info.

That screen shot was from a documentary that was filmed in 1999 so it was very modern. I am sure if I do a Google search I can find many books today with his drawings. But your missing the point the kids are being lied to and you and others don't give a shit?


Your relation of time (millions of years) to my point has zero value in discrediting my opinion. We're not arguing what happened millions of years ago we're arguing the modern interpretation of what happened.

Ok cool just don't bring up anything from Millions of years ago and I won't either, I don't see how you can debate Evolution without talking about millions of years but we can give it a shot.

[BacktoBasics]

Perhaps Mouse or z0sa can give a better explanation of the fossil record and how life came to exist in its present form?God dun der thunk it up.

[mouse]

Perhaps Mouse or z0sa can give a better explanation of the fossil record and how life came to exist in its present form?

You go from trying to make us look bad with your vast knowledge of how life came about to asking how life came about?

I am not here to educate your backwoods Portland ass I am here to expose your lies.

[mouse]

God dun der thunk it up.


Your ejection form the topic took a back seat?

[mouse]

Pizza guy is at the door and Digg's town is on the VCR see you guys later tonight?

:smokin

[tlongII]

You go from trying to make us look bad with your vast knowledge of how life came about to asking how life came about?

I am not here to educate your backwoods Portland ass I am here to expose your lies.

I tell no lies. Only truth.

[MiamiHeat]

You go from trying to make us look bad with your vast knowledge of how life came about to asking how life came about?

I am not here to educate your backwoods Portland ass I am here to expose your lies.

XUcB_HiCKnM

[BacktoBasics]

But yet you Atheist's claim 450 Billion years ago the earth was a hot ball of gas and liquid and formed small bacteria that later grew legs and later became a monkey, that means you all claim we all evolved from a rocks.
I'm not making grand claims. I'll dabble here and there when some of what you guys say doesn't add up to some of what I've read or remember, but thats about it. I don't believe in your God and I don't believe the world to be as young as 10k years. I'm not really claiming a whole lot more in here other than adaptation or micro evolution is pretty well a stone cold fact.

I understand how much better it makes you feel to thump your non-primal chests and claim victory. Good for you.

[BacktoBasics]

I am not here to educate your backwoods Portland ass I am here to expose your lies.The irony in a thumper attempting to expose lies.

I may hold off on the eject button if this is going to end up in hurt feeling and insults. I have about 30 minutes before I head home.

[tlongII]

But yet you Atheist's claim 450 Billion years ago the earth was a hot ball of gas and liquid and formed small bacteria that later grew legs and later became a monkey, that means you all claim we all evolved from a rocks.


You really need to do your research. The earth is between 4 and 5 billion years old. Not 450 billion.

[MiamiHeat]

Still waiting for a reply to the Transitional fossil video

They asked for one, i provided a video full of them

[mouse]

I can post a youtube link of pigs flying does that really mean they are real?

Stick with the facts vato!

[BacktoBasics]

FEATHER-COVERED DINOSAUR FOSSILS FOUND
Peacock-sized creature predates the oldest known bird By Sid Perkins
Web edition : Friday, September 25th, 2009

BRISTOL, England — A newly described, profusely feathered dinosaur may give lift to scientists’ understanding of bird and flight evolution, researchers report. The lithe creature, which stood about 28 centimeters tall at the hip, is the oldest known to have sported feathers and is estimated to be between 1 million and 11 million years older than Archaeopteryx, the first known bird.

Several fossils of the creature, which has been dubbed Anchiornis huxleyi, have been unearthed in northeastern China, Xing Xu reported September 25 at the annual meeting of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology. The strata that contained those feathered fossils were laid down as sediments between 151 million and 161 million years ago, he and his colleagues note online September 24 in Nature.

Two types of feather adorn the creature, said Xu, of the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology in Beijing. One kind, commonly referred to as “dino-fuzz,” resembles a frayed bundle of filaments. The other type, similar in overall structure to the feathers of modern-day birds, consists of small filaments that branch from a larger shaftlike filament.

The dino-fuzz decorates the creature’s head and neck. About two dozen of the shafted feathers adorn each forelimb, and a similar number embellish each lower leg and foot, the researchers report. Unlike most feathered dinosaurs described previously, which have the longest forelimb feathers near the tip of the limb, Anchiornis’ longest forelimb feathers are on the wrist, Xu said. Feathers on the legs and feet appear to have overlapped each other, creating aerodynamic surfaces that would have, in essence, given Anchiornis a wing on each of its four limbs. A similar configuration has been seen in other feathered dinosaurs, including Microraptor (SN: 1/27/07, p. 53) and Archaeopteryx (SN: 9/23/06, p. 197).

With so many species with this arrangement, the four-winged configuration must have been an important phase in the evolutionary transition from dinosaurs to birds, says James M. Clark, a vertebrate paleontologist at George Washington University in Washington, D.C.

Larry D. Martin, a paleontologist at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, agrees. The profuse plumage on Anchiornis’ feet, he notes, also suggests that the creature was a tree dweller, bolstering the notion that flight developed from the trees down, not from the ground up. “No dinosaur could walk well with feathers on its feet like that,” he adds.

Many scientists scoff at the suggestion that the filamentary structures found on some dinosaurs, especially those unearthed in China in recent years, represent nascent feathers. But those creatures lived many millions of years after Archaeopteryx, which had feathers indistinguishable from those on modern-day birds. The new find is important because it undoubtedly includes the oldest known feathers on any creature, says Mike Benton, a vertebrate paleontologist at the University of Bristol in England and cochair of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology meeting.

“These exceptional fossils provide us with evidence that has been missing until now,” Xu said. “Now it all fits neatly into place, and we have tied up some of the loose ends.”

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/47800/description/Feather-covered_dinosaur_fossils_found

[Jeff Probst]

So if a Fossil is found with a man still on a cross that that mean there was a Jesus?

You guys need to stop looking at old rocks and show us a 1/2 monkey 1/2 man already!

[mouse]

Fossils from China! :lmao

http://www.paleodirect.com/fakechinesefossils4.htm

[mouse]

Goggle China fake fossils watch your pc freeze up.

http://archosaurmusings.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/fake-fossils-in-china-again-%E2%80%93-a-demonstration/

[mouse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feathered_dinosaurs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Dave_NGMC_91.jpg/180px-Dave_NGMC_91.jpg

[Death In June]

You've heard of carbon dating, right? The earth is a few billion years old. That's not a theory or anything, that's a well established fact.

[Cyrano]

"years ago the earth was a hot ball of gas and liquid "


C'mon, Mouse, the argument is about evolution,not Michael Moore.

[mouse]

You've heard of carbon dating, right? The earth is a few billion years old. That's not a theory or anything, that's a well established fact.

Dude you must be new around here, we have covered that area already.
Carbon dating has been proven inaccurate time and time again please update your arguments.

Carbon Dating Doesn't Work
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Carbon_Dating_Doesn't_Work

Scientists will not admit it, but their carbon dating technique is not any good at all beyond a couple of thousands of years. Because the effect of rushing water, heavy pressure from water, and resting water -- rocks on this planet appear to be millions of years old to these unbelieving scientists and their carbon dating technique.



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=vN5&ei=BkbBSqmyMpON8Abt8Ji4AQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=flaws+in+carbon+dating&spell=1



I recall a test when scientists carbon dated a seal that had died days prior to be over 1500 years old.

The flaws of Carbon Dating (Science and Technology)

http://jubilationlee.blogspot.com/2007/09/flaws-of-carbon-dating-science-and.html

Carbon dating accuracy: what are the flaws of carbon dating?
http://www.essortment.com/hobbies/carbondatingac_szhq.htm

the biggest carbon 14 dating mistake

http://www.innoval.com/C14/

you want more ?

[Death In June]

Doesn't matter. The principle still stands, you just use a different isotope that has a longer half life than carbon 14 to get a more accurate result. It might help if you didn't use resources with an agenda.

[Wild Cobra]

Doesn't matter. The principle still stands, you just use a different isotope that has a longer half life than carbon 14 to get a more accurate result. It might help if you didn't use resources with an agenda.
Very true. Carbon-14 has a half-life of 5,730 years. It works great for organic items maybe as far as 100,000 years back, but it a tricky process since the creation of C-14 changes with solar changes.

I forget what isotopes are used for long term analysis, but it's not C-14.

[mouse]

Doesn't matter. The principle still stands,.

http://hotcrumbsoflove.com/blog1/wp-content/uploads/can%20of%20worms.jpg

It doesn't matter? Translation: I have no good come backs for the links you posted? Is this how it is? You Darwin lovers say something we don't have an answer to so we are wrong! your right?

I say something you have no answer to and now it's "It doesn't matter"?


The principle still stands,.

So we went from proving hard scientific evidence to principles?

I love it keep them coming! your making my job that much easier! " :lmao