NBA Locks Out Refs

[duncan228]

NBA locks out refs (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AldETQB825OxgJqdY.YoiKy8vLYF?slug=aw-refs091809&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
By Adrian Wojnarowski

The NBA has locked out its referees, Yahoo! Sports has learned.

After failing to reach an agreement with its game officials, the NBA will start referee training camp with replacements next week.

Talks ended on Thursday, when the league and NBA Referee’s Association were unable to come to terms on a new collective bargaining agreement. The NBA will use Developmental League and WNBA officials to start the preseason, and perhaps, the regular season.

“The proposals we have made to the NBRA are extraordinarily fair and reasonable, given the current economic circumstances,” the NBA’s Executive Vice President and General Counsel Rick Buchanan said in a league memo. “Since late 2008, the league and our teams have made far deeper cuts in non-referee headcount and expenses than we are asking for here.

“It is extremely disappointing that the NBRA has ignored the economic realities, rejected our offer, and left us with no choice but to begin using replacement referees.”

The union believes that the NBA is asking for too many give backs in the league’s current proposal, and voted 57-0 among its officials to reject the NBA’s latest offer.

[Spursfan 87]

no joey crawford next year???? that sucks

[ploto]

It may get even more complicated for the Raptors because of Labor Laws in Canada.

[duncan228]

Updated.

NBA to move ahead with replacement refs (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-replacementrefs&prov=ap&type=lgns)
By Brian Mahoney

The NBA will hold training camp next week with replacement officials, saying the referees union has rejected its final contract offer.

The National Basketball Referees Association has been bracing for a lockout since talks first broke down last week, and lead negotiator Lamell McMorris called it “imminent and unavoidable” after no deal was reached Thursday.

A statement from the NBA on Friday made it clear the lockout was under way.

“It is extremely disappointing that the NBRA has ignored the economic realities, rejected our offer, and left us with no choice but to begin using replacement referees,” executive vice president and general counsel Rick Buchanan said.

McMorris said the referees didn’t view Thursday’s negotiations as a final offer, yet wasn’t surprised by the NBA’s decision.

“I predicted that a lockout was forthcoming and yet it does not mean that both sides cannot continue to talk and work through some of these issues,” McMorris said.

Training camp was scheduled to begin Sunday, but will now be pushed back into sometime next week to give the NBA time to line up the replacements and get them to New Jersey. The league did not say how many referees would be at camp. There are 57 active NBA officials.

The league began contacting replacements last Wednesday, the day after the last face-to-face meeting between the sides in New York, which commissioner David Stern abruptly ended because he said the officials reneged on a previously agreed to proposal.

McMorris said he “absolutely disputes” that, insisting replacement officials—including some who had been fired by the league—were contacted well before the last session.

The contract between the NBA and its officials expired Sept. 1, and the sides had been trying to reach a new two-year deal. They largely agreed on salaries, which would have held steady this year and given the refs a slight increase in the second year, but the union balked at the league’s attempt to change retirement benefits.

The league also sought to lower costs through reductions in areas such as the travel budget and per diems, and the union also fought a league plan to develop younger officials. But the biggest difference was in the referees’ pension and severance plans.

The NBA’s statement said the previous deal gave the referees retirement bonuses of up to $575,000, on top of pension benefits that could exceed $2 million. It said that came on top of compensation totaling nearly $150,000 per year for entry level referees and more than $550,000 annually for the most senior referees.

McMorris was upset the NBA included salary information in its release, calling it a “distortion of the referees current compensation”, since he contends the NBA gave raises and bonuses to the three men in the league office who oversee the referee operations department.

“I just thought that was an unfortunate low blow that they’re attempting to do in order to create media spin and I guess to try to get fans to not sympathize with our plight,” McMorris said.

Stern has said the league is trying to bring the referees’ budget in line with other departments.

“The proposals we have made to the NBRA are extraordinarily fair and reasonable, given the current economic circumstances,” Buchanan said. “Since late 2008, the league and our teams have made far deeper cuts in non-referee headcount and expenses than we are asking for here.”

The first preseason game is scheduled for Oct. 1 at Utah. The NBA hasn’t used replacement referees since early in the 1995-96 season.

“We’re the ones who have given back money, put money back on the table,” McMorris said. “I just don’t know what else we can do.”

[lurker]

This might not be such a bad thing.

[duncan228]

SBJ: NBA Locks Out Referees (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=tsn-sbjnbalocksoutrefere&prov=tsn&type=lgns)
SportingNews

This piece, written by Liz Mullen, first appeared in SportsBusiness Daily’s Closing Bell on Friday.

The NBA has officially notified the National Basketball Referees Association that it has declared a lockout of the referees, National Basketball Referees’ Association Executive Director Lamell McMorris told SportsBusiness Journal Friday afternoon.


"We have just been officially locked out by the NBA," McMorris said. He added that he just received an official letter from the NBA "locking out the referees."

McMorris declined to comment further, saying he had to talk to the union members before issuing any further comment. The NBA declined comment on McMorris’ statements, but the league did announce Friday afternoon it will begin referee training camp Sunday with replacement referees because the NBRA rejected its final contract offer Thursday.


Earlier today, McMorris said the NBRA has had “initial discussions” with the Teamsters and other unions about not crossing the picket lines if NBRA members are locked out.

“We are already in discussions. We know who is not going to cross the picket lines—the folks who deliver liquor, the folks who deliver food,” McMorris said.

The referees were scheduled to report to training camp on Sunday, but McMorris said there is not enough time to get a deal done for that deadline to be met.

McMorris said he has not yet made a formal request for the Teamsters or other unions to honor the referees picket lines. But he added of the Teamsters, “They do not cross picket lines, that does not happen. Without a doubt we will have picket lines if we are locked out. … I don’t think I need to tell the NBA that.”

McMorris said that he has talked to players’ union executive director Billy Hunter but has not asked NBA players to honor the referees picket lines “nor would I make that request.”

McMorris said that players are concerned about the potential for increased injuries and increased fines if replacement officials are used. “The players know what replacement officials look like and they don’t want to go there,” he said.

[stretch]

this is great news

officiating should be much better

or it could be bad news and much worse officiating if stern gets to hang around these guys


but i think it will be great

the only thing that would top this is if duncan228 would stop posting 400 articles every hour

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I don't know how deeply this will impact the overall quality of the officiating but it certainly doesn't help the league's image one bit. The conspiracy nut fans will be able to point to every call against their team or for some media darling as the result of a rookie ref who is either directly in Stern's pocket or who is directly or indirectly trying to please their boss because they don't have any sort of seniority yet.

[z0sa]

What horrible news. I hate the reffing, but its not as much about the refs as it is how they are influenced and directed by top management. This is just gonna be bad call after bad call because the rookies are giving in to coaches, players and the crowds.

[Allanon]

The Referees Association is crazy. Seriously, what kind of leverage did they actually think they had? There's no special talent needed to ref, and the rules of basketball are no secret.

The NBA Refs Association is screwed and all of a sudden these $150,000+ refs are out of a very lucrative job.

[Cry Havoc]

The NBA needs a youth movement in the refs anyway.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The Referees Association is crazy. Seriously, what kind of leverage did they actually think they had? There's no special talent needed to ref, and the rules of basketball are no secret.

The NBA Refs Association is screwed and all of a sudden these $150,000+ refs are out of a very lucrative job.

I don't know about that... If there was no special talent needed to ref, anyone could do it well and that doesn't seem to be the case now, does it?

Seems to me, reffing is more difficult than it looks. I'm not saying they are right here because I know jack shit about their demands, but good refs are hard to come by.

[daslicer]

I can't feel bad for this just though of not having to see Joey Crawford, Nies, Salvatorre ref a spurs game seems exciting. Seriously I don't know anyway these refs can be any worse then the current NBA refs. Worst case scenario they suckass which is pretty much how NBA refs are today.

[Allanon]

I don't know about that... If there was no special talent needed to ref, anyone could do it well and that doesn't seem to be the case now, does it?

Seems to me, reffing is more difficult than it looks. I'm not saying they are right here because I know jack shit about their demands, but good refs are hard to come by.

NBA level players aren't easy to come by but NBA qualified refs I think would be a dime a dozen.

The Players have extreme leverage because you can't teach NBA talent. But you can teach NBA reffing..if the NBA uses the NBDL refs, I don't think they'll even miss a beat.

To us fans, it's going to be business as usual just with new names for the black and whites.

[DrHouse]

The NBA desperately needs fresh new blood, but I sincerely doubt whatever new refs they bring in will be any better than what we have.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

[Culburn369]

What horrible news. I hate the reffing, but its not as much about the refs as it is how they are influenced and directed by top management.

You've no complaint coming, Z,,,you've benefited more than anyone (save us) from the rigged officiating. Don't even start with your fake outrage & umbrage.

[Dex]

You've no complaint coming, Z,,,you've benefited more than anyone (save us) from the rigged officiating. Don't even start with your fake outrage & umbrage.

Yes, because you know Stern wants the boring, small-market, Finals-ratings-kryptonite Spurs standing at the end of the race. :rolleyes

[Culburn369]

Yes, because you know Stern wants the boring, small-market, Finals-ratings-kryptonite Spurs standing at the end of the race. :rolleyes

Sterns reasons are his own. You've taken the hand downs, don't even try to deny it.

[PGDynasty24]

No Dick Bavetta the Laker hater!!!!! Thank the lord. that guy always gets kobe in foul trouble

[TDMVPDPOY]

nba refs crying over 550k salary? hahahahhahahaa

[redzero]

Those assholes called a foul on Chris Paul after Kobe pushed him to the ground--Paul's sixth. Fuck them. The Hornets lost that game months ago, and I'm still mad about it.

[BlackSwordsMan]

another spurs championship!

[exstatic]

The funny thing is, the refs thought Stern was negotiating. He wasn't. He was telling them how it was going to be. I hope they commit career suicide and dig in their heels. Joey Crawford never working again is my happy thought.

[Culburn369]

another spurs championship!

Don't ferget the Mavsssssssssssss...

tee, hee.

[TheProfessor]

If you thought the officiating was bad before...

[Culburn369]

If you thought the officiating was bad before...

...well, it was, Prof, cept for you, I, & the Celtics.

tee, hee.

[TheProfessor]

...well, it was, Prof, cept for you, I, & the Celtics.

tee, hee.
I'm just saying, everyone thinks this is out with the old, in with the new, but that just likely means a lot more ticky tack fouls and a huge learning curve. If that makes the games less enjoyable, no one wins.

[ShoogarBear]

If replacement refs start the regular season, you guys are going to be screaming bloody murder to get the old refs back within a week.

[duncan228]

Shaq siding with refs? (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/119591-shaq-siding-with-refs?eref=fromSI)

Veteran Shaquille O'Neal, who played with replacements refs during his fourth and final season in Orlando in 1995 -- urged both sides Friday to come to a quick agreement. O'Neal spoke at a charity function near his home in Orlando organized by his mother that raises money to provide nursing scholarships at various colleges and universities. "The refs have been vital to this league for a long time. They should be treated accordingly,'' O'Neal said. "We need perfection out there. The league needs to get this done.''

- fanhouse

*********************

The fanhouse piece.

Shaq Backs NBA Refs in Contract Talks (http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/09/18/shaq-backs-nba-refs-in-contract-talks/)
By Tim Povtak

Cleveland center Shaquille O'Neal -- with his four championship rings -- threw his considerable weight Friday morning behind the NBA referees union, which is facing a possible lockout after the latest contract negotiations with the league broke down.

O'Neal said Friday that he was surprised and disappointed the league was asking the officials to make significant concessions and take reductions in their pension benefits.

O'Neal knows first hand what can happen during a lockout when the league turns to replacement officials. People get hurt.

The NBA used replacement officials at the start of the 1995-96 season, and they were rounded criticized for being unable to control the games. During a particularly physical exhibition game that season, O'Neal had his right thumb fractured when he was karate chopped by Matt Geiger before he went up for a dunk. It was the start of O'Neal's final season with the Magic. Geiger was playing for the Miami Heat.

O'Neal had surgery two days later, and he missed the first 22 games of that regular season.

Lamell McMorris, lead negotiator for the union, told FanHouse Friday that a potential lockout "should scare everyone because of what could happen.''

"The refs have been vital to this league for a long time. They should be treated accordingly,'' O'Neal told FanHouse Friday morning. "We need perfection out there. We don't need second best (replacements). The league needs to get this done.''

O'Neal was back home in Orlando, preparing to play golf in his favorite charity event -- his mother's fundraiser that provides nursing scholarships at several colleges in Florida and New Jersey -- when he was asked Friday about the officials.

"I feel for them. They work hard out there, just like we do,'' he said. "When you look at all that's going on with the league. This is a big year. We need them out there.''

Without a new deal, replacement officials will be used when the exhibition schedules begins Oct. 1. The NBA has not begun a season without its regular referees since 1995.

[Trainwreck2100]

a player should not speak in favor publically for the refs

[TheMACHINE]

Shaq wins a championship next year.

[exstatic]

I'm just saying, everyone thinks this is out with the old, in with the new, but that just likely means a lot more ticky tack fouls and a huge learning curve. If that makes the games less enjoyable, no one wins.

The games are "less enjoyable" until about Feb/March anyway.

[Dunc n Dave]

Shaq siding with refs? (http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/119591-shaq-siding-with-refs?eref=fromSI)

"The refs have been vital to this league for a long time. They should be treated accordingly,'' O'Neal said. "We need perfection out there. The league needs to get this done.''



Translation: "Damn Stern, how am I gonna get away with lowering my shoulder to get a dunk with these new guys out here? The "real refs" accepted that as "part of my game" a LONG time ago. I'm screwed if a deal doesn't get done soon."

[Dunc n Dave]

As long as the "new refs" don't practice the "star treatment" when calling fouls, I am ALL for this change. I'm sick of seeing one guy get almost as many FTs as the entire opposing team combined.

[Johnson]

The NBA’s statement said the previous deal gave the referees retirement bonuses of up to $575,000, on top of pension benefits that could exceed $2 million. It said that came on top of compensation totaling nearly $150,000 per year for entry level referees and more than $550,000 annually for the most senior referees.
:violin :cry :violin

greedy fuckers. good riddance.

[duncan228]

Fired ref on list for replacement training camp (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-replacementreferee&prov=ap&type=lgns)
By Brian Mahoney

A referee who was previously fired by the NBA is among the group of replacements who have agreed to participate in training camp next week.

Michael Henderson is one of 44 who was sent an e-mail from the NBA’s referees operations department on Friday. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the e-mail, which provides the replacements with details about the meetings, scheduled to begin Thursday in New York.

The NBA announced Friday that it would train replacement officials after failing to reach an agreement on a new contract with its referees union.

NBA spokesman Tim Frank said he could not confirm any names on the list because the league hadn’t finalized it yet.

Henderson missed three games—the union called it a suspension—after he was called to league headquarters following an incorrect call in a game between Denver and the Lakers in February 2004. He mistakenly whistled a shot clock violation on a Denver shot that brushed the rim and was rebounded by a Nuggets player. The officials huddled and ruled it an inadvertent whistle, resulting in a jump ball. The Lakers won the tip and made the game-winning shot with 3.2 seconds left.

After the league publicly acknowledged the error, nearly all the officials responded the next night by wearing their jerseys inside-out with Henderson’s No. 62 on the back.

The league would not say why Henderson was fired.

[exstatic]

Fired ref on list for replacement training camp (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-replacementreferee&prov=ap&type=lgns)
By Brian Mahoney

A referee who was previously fired by the NBA is among the group of replacements who have agreed to participate in training camp next week.

Michael Henderson is one of 44 who was sent an e-mail from the NBA’s referees operations department on Friday. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the e-mail, which provides the replacements with details about the meetings, scheduled to begin Thursday in New York.

The NBA announced Friday that it would train replacement officials after failing to reach an agreement on a new contract with its referees union.

NBA spokesman Tim Frank said he could not confirm any names on the list because the league hadn’t finalized it yet.

Henderson missed three games—the union called it a suspension—after he was called to league headquarters following an incorrect call in a game between Denver and the Lakers in February 2004. He mistakenly whistled a shot clock violation on a Denver shot that brushed the rim and was rebounded by a Nuggets player. The officials huddled and ruled it an inadvertent whistle, resulting in a jump ball. The Lakers won the tip and made the game-winning shot with 3.2 seconds left.

After the league publicly acknowledged the error, nearly all the officials responded the next night by wearing their jerseys inside-out with Henderson’s No. 62 on the back.

The league would not say why Henderson was fired.

Stern re-considered when he realized the error gave the game to the Lakers. :lol

[mogrovejo]

If replacement refs start the regular season, you guys are going to be screaming bloody murder to get the old refs back within a week.

Yeps. Do people remember what happened the other time they brought the replacement refs? It was horrific.

NBA refs are the best basketball referees in the world by far and away. Fans just have unreasonable expectations. Basketball is just a tough game to officiate; controversial calls and mistakes will always be part of it.

[exstatic]

Yeps. Do people remember what happened the other time they brought the replacement refs? It was horrific.

NBA refs are the best basketball referees in the world by far and away. Fans just have unreasonable expectations. Basketball is just a tough game to officiate; controversial calls and mistakes will always be part of it.

They didn't have a ref pipeline back then from the d-league, which uses the same rules as the NBA.

I don't have a problem with mistakes. I have a problem with refs who have an obvious bias against players or organizations. Spurs fans hate Joey Crawford. There's a reason for that. In 2006-2007 Duncan shot 568 FTs. He and Horry laugh at Crawford's ridiculous calls in the final game. Crawford runs him, and gets suspended for the playoffs. Flash forward to 2007-2008. Tim shoots 463 FTs. He's never shot less than 500 in anything that qualifies as a full season. He was perfectly healthy both seasons and played about the same mpg and the same number of games. Coincidence? I think not.

I'll wait thru mistakes and any break in period if those egotistical rank-closing assholes are gone.

[Culburn369]

As long as the "new refs" don't practice the "star treatment" when calling fouls, I am ALL for this change. I'm sick of seeing one guy get almost as many FTs as the entire opposing team combined.

Ain't that rich...without ["star treatment" when calling fouls] you'd be O & forever.

[mogrovejo]

They didn't have a ref pipeline back then from the d-league, which uses the same rules as the NBA.

I don't have a problem with mistakes. I have a problem with refs who have an obvious bias against players or organizations. Spurs fans hate Joey Crawford. There's a reason for that. In 2006-2007 Duncan shot 568 FTs. He and Horry laugh at Crawford's ridiculous calls in the final game. Crawford runs him, and gets suspended for the playoffs. Flash forward to 2007-2008. Tim shoots 463 FTs. He's never shot less than 500 in anything that qualifies as a full season. He was perfectly healthy both seasons and played about the same mpg and the same number of games. Coincidence? I think not.

I'll wait thru mistakes and any break in period if those egotistical rank-closing assholes are gone.

Sure it's no coincidence. Duncan's usage rate declined by 1.3%. His offensive rebounding rate declined by 1.4%. And he took more 80 jump-shots in 07/08 than in the previous season. So, he had the ball less, he was playing and taking shots further away from the basket and crashing the glass less. He got about 1 less free-throw attempt every 36 minutes. It seems pretty natural to me. His decline on FG% was steeper.

D-League refs are for NBA refs like D-League players are for NBA players.

[mojorizen7]

This might not be such a bad thing.

^This.

The NBA game may be the most difficult to call as a referee due to the speed of the game(I understand this), but the problem's lie with inconsistency and call's being made based on player's and team's reputation's rather than whats actually going on in the game's.

Fuck Stern and his referees.
The NBA needs a "once-every-100-years" forest fire to clean out the scum and allow it to grow back a cleaner,more legitimate game to watch.

[baseline bum]

Fuck Stern for possibly ruining what looks to be one of the most exciting seasons in NBA history. You have three loaded teams that have each won a title in the last three seasons and a fourth with the MVP and a top 3 all-time center. This season is seriously shaping up to be as good as if not better than 2006.

[Culburn369]

Fuck Stern and his referees.
The NBA needs a "once-every-100-years" forest fire to clean out the scum and allow it to grow back a cleaner,more legitimate game to watch.

Or, you need to follow the rules and keep your ass on the bench. San Antonio too, though they didn't get cuffed for it.

tee, hee.

[spursncowboys]

If replacement refs start the regular season, you guys are going to be screaming bloody murder to get the old refs back within a week. It's not like the new guys have never ref'ed a game before.

[Culburn369]

NBA refs|||Professional rasslin' refs:::six of one,,,half dozen of the other.

[Johnson]

I can't believe all the boo hooing for the poor refs, and the mean nba.

starting salary 150k to 550k for senior refs... that makes it 350k for average ref's salary.

boo fucking hoo. what's their fucking problem?

[baseline bum]

I can't believe all the boo hooing for the poor refs, and the mean nba.

starting salary 150k to 550k for senior refs... that makes it 350k for average ref's salary.

boo fucking hoo. what's their fucking problem?

That's not how you compute averages.

[Johnson]

yeah I know. It's still got to be a couple hundred K average though.

What's their problem. Most people would kill to make that.

[mojorizen7]

Or, you need to follow the rules and keep your ass on the bench. San Antonio too, though they didn't get cuffed for it.

tee, hee.

Tee hee? http://www.realramsfans.com/images/smiles/eusa_naughty.gif Shame on you Mr C.

Anyway, I would venture to say that if you were to poll 1,000 NBA fans who proclaim that they aren't fans anymore the #1 reason would be preferencial officiating and not allowing the players to dictate the pace, and possibly the outcome of many games.

This is what i hear time and time again from fans my age.....Middle-aged men who'd rather watch pro football :lol.

[cobbler]

Yeps. Do people remember what happened the other time they brought the replacement refs? It was horrific.

NBA refs are the best basketball referees in the world by far and away. Fans just have unreasonable expectations. Basketball is just a tough game to officiate; controversial calls and mistakes will always be part of it.

Ahh the voice of reason....

[cobbler]

Tee hee? http://www.realramsfans.com/images/smiles/eusa_naughty.gif Shame on you Mr C.

Anyway, I would venture to say that if you were to poll 1,000 NBA fans who proclaim that they aren't fans anymore the #1 reason would be preferencial officiating and not allowing the players to dictate the pace, and possibly the outcome of many games.

This is what i hear time and time again from fans my age.....Middle-aged men who'd rather watch pro football :lol.

Maybe if that poll was taken in Phoenix. You can blame the refs and Stern all you want. You can call conspiricy all you want. You can blame big market vs small market all you want. All it is is sour grapes and we all know the Suns fans are the biggest whiners in the league.

The majority of the people I talk to that no longer watch the NBA site the players and their smug attitudes as the reason. The looking in the news only to find who got arrested for brandishing a weapon at the strip bar of the week( see Delonte). The hearing comments like not being able to feed their children if they dont get the mega million extension.

...and football has just as many if not more blown calls. They also cater to the stars just as ALL sports leagues do.

[exstatic]

Or, you need to follow the rules and keep your ass on the bench. San Antonio too, though they didn't get cuffed for it.

tee, hee.

You need to understand the rule. It's not that you can't ever step onto the court from the bench. You just can't do it during an altercation.

Suns player throws Elson to the ground. Duncan steps one foot onto the court. Elson gets up and runs back to the other end. No altercation. If Elson even squares up on him, after all of the flapdoodle in that game, Duncan gets suspended for game 5, too. Thank God for mature players.

[exstatic]

Sure it's no coincidence. Duncan's usage rate declined by 1.3%. His offensive rebounding rate declined by 1.4%. And he took more 80 jump-shots in 07/08 than in the previous season. So, he had the ball less, he was playing and taking shots further away from the basket and crashing the glass less. He got about 1 less free-throw attempt every 36 minutes. It seems pretty natural to me. His decline on FG% was steeper.

D-League refs are for NBA refs like D-League players are for NBA players.

Did it ever occur to you that his lack of FTs led to an adaptation to more jumpers, and that when you don't get FTs on a miss, it lowers your FG% because it counts against it, where a miss with a foul call doesn't? You're basically making my argument for me. A few stats are off 1-2%, and you're blowing off a 1.2 FTA per game drop, which is 20 fucking percent?

[cobbler]

Did it ever occur to you that his lack of FTs led to an adaptation to more jumpers, and that when you don't get FTs on a miss, it lowers your FG% because it counts against it, where a miss with a foul call doesn't? You're basically making my argument for me. A few stats are off 1-2%, and you're blowing off a 1.2 FTA per game drop, which is 20 fucking percent?

So you are saying Duncan see's opportunities to drive to the basket and consciously chooses not to and take the jumper because he wont get the call? Really? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Trainwreck2100]

So you are saying Duncan see's opportunities to drive to the basket and consciously chooses not to and take the jumper because he wont get the call? Really? :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Yes because 7 foot power forwards are known for their awesome ability to drive to the basket.

[cobbler]

Yes because 7 foot power forwards are known for their awesome ability to drive to the basket.

ohhh... but he had the moves and used them the previous season. He's just now decides not to use them cause he doesn't get the calls. Hillarious!

[mojorizen7]

Maybe if that poll was taken in Phoenix. You can blame the refs and Stern all you want. You can call conspiricy all you want. You can blame big market vs small market all you want. All it is is sour grapes and we all know the Suns fans are the biggest whiners in the league.

The majority of the people I talk to that no longer watch the NBA site the players and their smug attitudes as the reason. The looking in the news only to find who got arrested for brandishing a weapon at the strip bar of the week. The hearing comments about not being able to feed their children if they dont get the mega million extension.

...and football has just as many if not more blown calls. They also cater to the stars just as ALL sports leagues do.
Let go of my nutsack. I know you Cobbler and you know me.
You wouldn't know objectivity if it crawled up your ass and died.

As for the topic under conversation here....the players attitudes would be the other reason no doubt.

Fact is,NBA officiating is awful,no matter what colors you wear.

Just one example is when a star player drives the lane and there is minimal contact made,yet the refs wait to see if the shot attempt goes in to make the call......if the shot is missed they call a foul.
Its either a foul or it isn't.

[TDMVPDPOY]

do refs not know, mo money mo problemz?

http://i31.tinypic.com/so09jm.gif

[cobbler]

Let go of my nutsack. I know you Cobbler and you know me.
You wouldn't know objectivity if it crawled up your ass and died.

As for the topic under conversation here....the players attitudes would be the other reason no doubt.

Fact is,NBA officiating is awful,no matter what colors you wear.

Just one example is when a star player drives the lane and there is minimal contact made,yet the refs wait to see if the shot attempt goes in to make the call......if the shot is missed they call a foul.
Its either a foul or it isn't.

Are you denying that Suns fans are well known for their crying, ref bashing, and stern conspiricy rants? I'll give you credit though... you may very well be the first one to actually claim a nutsack! :wow

Fact is, officiating in all sports is tough. I actually think the NBA refs have the toughest job of all. And if you think calling a game is as black and white as making the call as the rules state then you have obviously never played. They could literally call a foul on every shot. Same goes with football. They could call holding every single play. Do they? No.

If they called every foul in a basketball game with no discretion, there would be no players left after halftime. That is why they wait to see if the ball went in. That is why you will see a ticky tack baseline foul called out of bounds. That is why you will see a bump of the dribbler not called on one play and the very same bump called when it caused the ball to be turned over.

If you called basketball games by the letter. Its a foul or not... black and white only, the rules would need modifying to allow 12 fouls and the games will last 5 hours.

[mojorizen7]

Are you denying that Suns fans are well known for their crying, ref bashing, and stern conspiricy rants? I'll give you credit though... you may very well be the first one to actually claim a nutsack! :wow

I'm not denying anything,take that up with the SUNS fans enmasse,if you can manage to let go of your trollish nature and not get banned :lol.

Fact is, officiating in all sports is tough. I actually think the NBA refs have the toughest job of all.

So do i. Thats what i said in the earlier post. Doesn't mean the refs should make it easier for themselves to call the game by using agendas and preferencial treatment towards the "stars of the game". And if you think calling a game is as black and white as making the call as the rules state then you have obviously never played. They could literally call a foul on every shot.

They could just as easily not call a foul on every shot. Get rid of the ticky tack mentality and you immediately can begin to call games more consistently. Same goes with football. They could call holding every single play. Do they? No.

If they called every foul in a basketball game with no discretion, there would be no players left after halftime. That is why they wait to see if the ball went in. That is why you will see a ticky tack baseline foul called out of bounds. That is why you will see a bump of the dribbler not called on one play and the very same bump called when it caused the ball to be turned over.

You missed my point here. To award a star player two free throws because he got marginally bumped & he missed a layup as oppsosed to not blowing the whistle as long as his shot goes in is garbage officiating.

If you called basketball games by the letter. Its a foul or not... black and white only, the rules would need modifying to allow 12 fouls and the games will last 5 hours.

Again,if you're gonna call the games so tight as to dictate the pace etc...then of course you can't call everything by the book.....which is why the refs need to take a step back and allow the players to play the game and step in make the calls only when it's an obvious infraction....regardless of the player and/or team involved.

[cobbler]

I'm not denying anything,take that up with the SUNS fans enmasse,if you can manage to let go of your trollish nature and not get banned


So you agree that Suns fans are known for their crying and excuses. Good for you.

And if you are talking about being banned from ASFN... come on. I have been banned there 2 times. Once for calling Suns fans whiney conspiricy spewers and just the other day for saying... " Nash will make it to the HOF based on his skills and accomplishments... however, he will be in the no ring wing with AI, Malone, Barkley, and Baylor". Instantly the Suns posters got thier panties in a wad, out came the obligatory "troll" comments and then a deletion and ban. Talk about inferiority complexes!




So do i. Thats what i said in the earlier post. Doesn't mean the refs should make it easier for themselves to call the game by using agendas and preferencial treatment towards the "stars of the game".


So what specific agendas are you speaking of? Stars have always and will always get preferential treatment in all sports, not just basketball.

So besides the "star" treatment that goes on in every sport... give me specifics on these so called agendas you are speaking of. *queue the Stearn rant*



They could just as easily not call a foul on every shot. Get rid of the ticky tack mentality and you immediately can begin to call games more consistently.


I agree but where do you draw the line? Ticky tack fouls that disrupt a shot get called or no ticky tack at all? Claiming its the refs and the league agenda to promote certain teams is bull. The ticky tack calls you are seeing today are a result of the rule changes over the years to promote offense and the ridiculous flagrant calls. And to take it a step further, you can put equal fault on the players themselves. All the flopping and out of control high flying that result in awkward falls exacerbate the difficulty in officiatingthe NBA.



Again,if you're gonna call the games so tight as to dictate the pace etc...then of course you can't call everything by the book.....which is why the refs need to take a step back and allow the players to play the game and step in make the calls only when it's an obvious infraction....regardless of the player and/or team involved.


It's a fine line. Every official has their quirks. Some call ticky tacky, others do not. Some you get a lot of slack when disputing a call and others will T you up in a heartbeat. It is up to the players to determine how the game is being called that particular evening and adjust to it. Just like baseball players adjust to a strikezone that changes nightly. I suppose if you do not have that capability then you stand around afterward and cry conspiricy or preferential treatment.

Don't get me wrong, there are obvious mistakes made daily and no doubt as a player and/or organization you are going to get stung and complain about it. When the complaints become common place year in and year out you just become a whiner. Winners make the adjustments.

[Dunc n Dave]

Are you denying that Suns fans are well known for their crying, ref bashing, and stern conspiricy rants? I'll give you credit though... you may very well be the first one to actually claim a nutsack! :wow

Fact is, officiating in all sports is tough. I actually think the NBA refs have the toughest job of all. And if you think calling a game is as black and white as making the call as the rules state then you have obviously never played. They could literally call a foul on every shot. Same goes with football. They could call holding every single play. Do they? No.

If they called every foul in a basketball game with no discretion, there would be no players left after halftime. That is why they wait to see if the ball went in. That is why you will see a ticky tack baseline foul called out of bounds. That is why you will see a bump of the dribbler not called on one play and the very same bump called when it caused the ball to be turned over.

If you called basketball games by the letter. Its a foul or not... black and white only, the rules would need modifying to allow 12 fouls and the games will last 5 hours.

I call BS...

What do players do when the refs start calling a lot of the contact early in a game? They ADJUST!

If most fouls were called fouls, the players would adjust. There would be some early season foul outs for the hard headed ones that can't figure out how to adjust, but eventually they would realize "if I get too physical, I'm gonna get a foul, so I better calm the f--- down."

Ironically, I preferred 90's basketball where defense was physical, but it's obvious to me that the NBA wants more scoring now, so why not call every foul, then they'll get their wish: games consistently in the 100's.

THe biggest pet peeve I have has bee mentioned already: the no-call foul on a drive, and then the whistle 2 seconds later after the ref sees the no-call foul caused the player to miss the shot.

Aggravating as hell when that happens and only reinforces people's disdain for NBA refs.

[cobbler]

I call BS...

What do players do when the refs start calling a lot of the contact early in a game? They ADJUST!

If most fouls were called fouls, the players would adjust. There would be some early season foul outs for the hard headed ones that can't figure out how to adjust, but eventually they would realize "if I get too physical, I'm gonna get a foul, so I better calm the f--- down."

Ironically, I preferred 90's basketball where defense was physical, but it's obvious to me that the NBA wants more scoring now, so why not call every foul, then they'll get their wish: games consistently in the 100's.

THe biggest pet peeve I have has bee mentioned already: the no-call foul on a drive, and then the whistle 2 seconds later after the ref sees the no-call foul caused the player to miss the shot.

Aggravating as hell when that happens and only reinforces people's disdain for NBA refs.

If you had read my latter post you would see that I also said players need to adjust to the calls being made as every ref has their own way of officiating. The winners learn how to adjust and the losers whine a lot about bad officiating and conspiricies.

My reference to the needing more fouls and 5 hours to play a game were for the poster that said every foul should be called regaredless of person or team involved.

As for the no call pet peeve you both have...I just don't get it. The ref see's a player go up for the shot on the drive. A shot they make with a high percentage. The ref assumes he's going to make it and gives the defender the break (non call) only to find out the ticky tack foul acutually DID cause the player to miss... you call the foul. If it goes in the defensive player gets the break cause it was truly a light foul... if it doesnt go in it gets called because it affected the play.

Players and teams who blame the refs constantly are losers. As you said, you adjust to the way the game is being called. If they cannot figure that out then thy need a new profession. Certainly, bad breaks are going to happen and you will get burned from time to time. Winners move on and adjust, losers whine and complain.

[Dunc n Dave]

If you had read my latter post you would see that I also said players need to adjust to the calls being made as every ref has their own way of officiating. The winners learn how to adjust and the losers whine a lot about bad officiating and conspiricies.

My reference to the needing more fouls and 5 hours to play a game were for the poster that said every foul should be called regaredless of person or team involved.

As for the no call pet peeve you both have...I just don't get it. The ref see's a player go up for the shot on the drive. A shot they make with a high percentage. The ref assumes he's going to make it and gives the defender the break (non call) only to find out the ticky tack foul acutually DID cause the player to miss... you call the foul. If it goes in the defensive player gets the break cause it was truly a light foul... if it doesnt go in it gets called because it affected the play.

Players and teams who blame the refs constantly are losers. As you said, you adjust to the way the game is being called. If they cannot figure that out then thy need a new profession. Certainly, bad breaks are going to happen and you will get burned from time to time. Winners move on and adjust, losers whine and complain.

Well said. I just don't like people saying every player would foul out by halftime, as if NBA players are too stupid to know to back off when the fouls are called tight in a game.

As for the pet peeve, a foul on a shot (especially a drive to the basket), should be called a foul everytime. No matter how light is was. It still affects the shot. Don't wait to see if it goes in then call a foul, that reinforces the casual fans argument of star treatment and games being rigged. The non-shooting fouls I could care less if they let those go...

[Culburn369]

You need to understand the rule. It's not that you can't ever step onto the court from the bench. You just can't do it during an altercation.

Suns player throws Elson to the ground. Duncan steps one foot onto the court. Elson gets up and runs back to the other end. No altercation. If Elson even squares up on him, after all of the flapdoodle in that game, Duncan gets suspended for game 5, too. Thank God for mature players.

Sure.

tee, hee.

[mojorizen7]

Ironically, I preferred 90's basketball where defense was physical, but it's obvious to me that the NBA wants more scoring now, so why not call every foul, then they'll get their wish: games consistently in the 100's.
.

:toast

Unfortunately the SUNS has always tried to circumvent that physicality by going fast and/or small and giving the league what they wanted.
Even Barkley's '93 Finals team was a little soft IMO.

[spursncowboys]

do refs not know, mo money mo problemz?

http://i31.tinypic.com/so09jm.gif
Is this the video of how H1N1 was spread?