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Gino
09-21-2009, 10:58 AM
Obama will have a hard time spinning this one as not being a "tax":

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/health/policy/21insure.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&pagewanted=all


September 21, 2009
A Proposed Tax on the Cadillac Health Insurance Plans May Also Hit the Chevys
By REED ABELSON

Although cast as a tax on gold-plated insurance policies for the well-heeled, it has prompted anxiety among the middle class.

The idea, proposed last Wednesday by Senator Max Baucus, is to help raise money for the nation’s health care overhaul by placing a new excise tax on the most expensive health insurance policies, like the ones offered to partners at Goldman Sachs and other affluent professionals.

The tax is meant to raise more than a quarter of the $774 billion needed to pay for the Baucus plan. But just as much, the tax is intended to discourage the overly generous coverage that many experts say has helped propel the country’s reckless spending on medical care.

As it turns out, though, many smaller fish would get caught in Mr. Baucus’s tax net. The supposedly Cadillac insurance policies include ones that cover many of the nation’s firefighters and coal miners, older employees at small businesses — a whole gamut that runs from union shops to Main Street entrepreneurs.

Under the Baucus plan, insurers selling a plan costing more than $8,000 for an individual and $21,000 for a family would have to pay a 35 percent excise tax on the excess amount.

Although the national average premium is currently $13,375 for a family policy, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, many are much higher than that — particularly in high-cost parts of the country.

Nationwide, about one in 10 family insurance plans would be subject to the new excise tax, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a liberal-leaning policy and research group.

The tax would be levied on insurers — or on employers that act as their own insurers. Either way, the tax would very likely be passed along to workers in even higher premiums than they pay now. But if insurance premiums continue to rise faster than inflation, as they have for years, many more people’s policies could end up setting off the luxury tax in coming years.

“It puts a bigger tax on middle-income Americans who are already paying enough,” said Harold A. Schaitberger, the general president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. The union says some of its members around the country are in plans that would be subject to the tax.

People who live in high-cost areas, like the Northeast or California, would also have a greater risk that their insurance plans would set off the excise tax — not because the coverage is particularly generous, but because the price of their policies reflects the higher medical costs where they live. Massachusetts residents, for example, tend to pay more than a quarter more in premiums, on average, than people living in Idaho.

Bruce Hodson is a state employee in Maine and the president of Local 1989 of the Service Employees International Union, where the cost of a family plan is now running at about $20,500 a year. At the typical pace of health premium inflation, his policy could very likely set off the tax if it goes into effect in 2013, as the Baucus plan proposes.

The plan has a $400 annual deductible per family, and Mr. Hodson has a co-payment whenever he goes to the doctor.

“We really worked hard to keep the cost down,” Mr. Hodson said of the union plan. And that coverage came at the expense of higher salaries, he said. “We’ve given up pay raises for this.”

The tax proposal has also drawn fire from some of Mr. Baucus’s Democratic colleagues, including John D. Rockefeller IV, who been an outspoken critic of the overall Baucus plan. Mr. Rockefeller says he is particularly worried about the effect of the tax on coverage for workers like coal miners, including those in his home state of West Virginia, and firefighters.

“I am concerned that the current excise tax proposal could prevent workers in high-risk professions from getting the health benefits they need,” he said.

Mr. Baucus acknowledges some of the concerns and plans to work with the other members of the Finance Committee to address them, said Erin Shields, a spokeswoman for the senator. The proposal, she said, already sets the thresholds somewhat higher in those states where coverage is the most expensive.

But Ms. Shields defined the tax as vital to discouraging insurance coverage that is overly generous. “High-cost health plans are a major contributor to skyrocketing health care costs,” she said. Employers, she said, would still be able to find meaningful coverage below the threshold.

On Sunday, President Obama said he saw the need to protect union members, but he also defended the tax. “I do think that giving a disincentive to insurance companies to offer Cadillac plans that don’t make people healthier is part of the way that we’re going to bring down health care costs for everybody over the long term.”

Proponents say the tax is squarely aimed at the very richest plans — like the family coverage offered to the 400 or so managing directors at Goldman Sachs and its top executive officers. It carries a premium of around $40,000 a year. The Goldman plan would be subject to nearly $7,000 in taxes. Goldman Sachs declined to comment.

Even if most employees around the nation might initially escape, experts say more people’s insurance plans would cross into the taxable range in future years. If the inflation rate in premiums continues its pace of the last 10 years, even the average cost of family coverage would probably cross the threshold within a few years of the tax’s going into effect.

“That number is going to grow and grow and grow,” said Marissa Milton, a health care policy analyst for the HR Policy Association, which represents large employers’ benefit managers.

Ms. Milton drew a comparison to the alternative minimum tax — a tax modified in 1986, supposedly as a way to keep affluent people from using deductions to avoid paying taxes. In reality, it has ended up capturing more and more middle-class taxpayers, Ms. Milton said. Likewise, the insurance excise tax “is going to affect a lot of families,” she said.

By his own calculation, Robert G. Hansen, a business professor at Dartmouth, is one of the Americans who might be considered to have luxurious coverage, because the cost of his benefits could easily top $25,000.

But that supposedly “gold-plated coverage,” he said, includes the cost of related benefits, like dental coverage and the money in his flexible spending account — all of which would be subject to the excise tax.

And who will pay the $1,450 in additional taxes Mr. Hansen would incur? “In the end, look in the mirror,” he said.

“It’s the worst kind of economic engineering,” he said. “You end up with something that looks like the I.R.S. code.”

Small employers would also probably be hit by the taxes — and, again, not because they offer overly generous coverage. Instead, small businesses tend to pay more for their insurance than bigger employers that can negotiate better premiums. And because they do not have large pools of workers to help spread the risk, small employers tend to pay even higher amounts if they have older or sicker workers.

About 14 percent of small employers, counted as those with fewer than 500 workers, now offer policies that would be subject to the excise tax, said Beth Umland, director of research for Mercer, a consulting firm that conducts an annual survey of employee benefits. That compares with just 5 percent of large employers with 500 or more workers.

“That is a very heavy hammer on the cost of your premiums,” said Donna Marshall, the executive director of the Colorado Business Group on Health, which represents employers of all sizes in that state. “You don’t want to cause a chilling effect on the employers who are trying to do the right thing.”

Even union plans, which tend to offer the most generous coverage, are expensive because they frequently cover a number of older workers or some who retired early and have not yet reached Medicare age. Jim Hoffa, president of the Teamsters union, warned that the middle class, not the rich, would bear the brunt. “It taxes the wrong people.”

Geraldine Fabrikant contributed reporting.

coyotes_geek
09-21-2009, 12:07 PM
Good read, and spot on. While Obama & Co are just saying that the high end insurance policies are the only ones that will be taxed the insurance companies aren't going to limit who they pass the cost of those taxes on to just the high end policy holders. They're going to pass those taxes along to everyone. The expensive policies are where they make the most money so they're going to look to minimize the hit those policies have to take so that they can keep selling them.

But the really disconcerting thing to all this is that the proposed tax on high end insurance policies only comes up to about a quarter of the total cost of the entire proposal. Where's the rest of the money going to come from? And don't give me the "reducing fraud and waste" bullshit. Because it is absolutely bullshit. No one creates more fraud and waste than the U.S. government so anyone who believes that they're capable of finding and eliminating hundreds of billions of dollars of it to pay for this thing is fucking retarded.

boutons_deux
09-21-2009, 01:09 PM
Repugs gonna gut this bill with 100s of amendments.

coyotes_geek
09-21-2009, 01:16 PM
How's that going to work? The dems are the ones with the supermajority.

CosmicCowboy
09-21-2009, 01:37 PM
Good read, and spot on. While Obama & Co are just saying that the high end insurance policies are the only ones that will be taxed the insurance companies aren't going to limit who they pass the cost of those taxes on to just the high end policy holders. They're going to pass those taxes along to everyone. The expensive policies are where they make the most money so they're going to look to minimize the hit those policies have to take so that they can keep selling them.

But the really disconcerting thing to all this is that the proposed tax on high end insurance policies only comes up to about a quarter of the total cost of the entire proposal. Where's the rest of the money going to come from? And don't give me the "reducing fraud and waste" bullshit. Because it is absolutely bullshit. No one creates more fraud and waste than the U.S. government so anyone who believes that they're capable of finding and eliminating hundreds of billions of dollars of it to pay for this thing is fucking retarded.

And even worse, if they HAVE identified hundreds of billions of fraud and waste why the fuck haven't we already eliminated it?

SpurNation
09-21-2009, 02:05 PM
This bill is the same as any other multi-conjointive government bill. If passed...it will only lead to higher cost and less coverage of the middle class in order to provide for the poverty stricken. And as in any social program mandated by federal law it will continue to lesson the middle class closer to poverty status all the while the rich will continue to become richer

Gutted, rewrote, amended, reduced, and entity specific is the only way to reform health care.

I don't mind a bipartisan government panel stepping in and setting public guidelines and regulations to the obvious rape of the public the private system is now enjoying.

Guidelines, Rate regulations and true across statelines purchasing power would help reduce costs significantly without mandated federal law.

Why aren't these suggestions being taken into consideration?

Side Note: IF...there is $500 billion in government waste as Obama claims in the current medicare/medicaid government run system...wouldn't straightening that out first be a priority prior to injecting even more mandated government laws regarding the same issue?

101A
09-21-2009, 02:27 PM
The single most important factor determining how much a health plan will cost is not the level of benefit; it is the health of the group being insured.

A $250 vs a $2,000 deductible is certainly substantial when comparing deductibles for most families; so, one would assume the $250 "Cadillac" plan would be MUCH more expensive. In reality, $1,750 difference is chump change for the insurer who is on the hook for $5 million for each and every participant on the plan. If you have an employer with 50 employees, one ADDITIONAL one with a significant claim more than makes up the deductible difference for the ENTIRE group that didn't have that addl. claim.

The surtax on "expensive" health plans is ill conceived and naive, frankly. It demonstrates an accute lack of understanding the business of Health Insurance. Yet, after months of working, this is what the "very adept and knowelgable" Baucus committee comes up with. If something like this passed, it would simply level ADDITIONAL expenses on the unhealthy! Stupid. Well, as it most things, unintended consequence are what our government is BEST at.

boutons_deux
09-21-2009, 02:32 PM
Waste?

The one "freedom" of a white elephant in the room is that 70% of US health bill is wasted on:

PREVENTABLE

CHRONIC

DISEASE

70% x $3T = $2T wasted on self-inflicted disease. But we'll bankrupt the country to defend your right to burden the country with your irresponsiblity.

That's one of the reasons the US health bill is higher than other industrial countries. Americans are more diseased than others.

Think any health plan is gonna have incentives (aka dollars) for being tested as healthy on several parameters?

brtw, the dishonest, lying scare-mongering Repugs have used Canada as an example of what the US doesn't want, but Bloomberg reports that Canada's health care system is so much better on every count than US's:

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http://images.bloomberg.com/r06/navigation/logo.gif (http://www.bloomberg.com/)



Canadian Health Care, Even With Queues, Bests U.S.

By Pat Wechsler
Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Opponents of overhauling U.S. health care argue that Canada shows what happens when government gets involved in medicine, saying the country is plagued by inferior treatment, rationing and months-long queues.

The allegations are wrong by almost every measure, according to research by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (http://www.oecd.org/home/) and other independent studies published during the past five years. While delays do occur for non-emergency procedures, data indicate that Canada’s system of universal health coverage provides care as good as in the U.S., at a cost 47 percent less for each person.

“There is an image of Canadians flooding across the border to get care,” said Donald Berwick (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Donald+Berwick&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a Harvard University health- policy specialist and pediatrician who heads the Boston-based nonprofit Institute for Healthcare Improvement (http://www.ihi.org/). “That’s just not the case. The public in Canada is far more satisfied with the system than they are in the U.S. and health care is at least as good, with much more contained costs.”

Canadians live two to three years longer than Americans and are as likely to survive heart attacks, childhood leukemia, and breast and cervical cancer, according to the OECD, the Paris- based coalition of 30 industrialized nations.

Deaths considered preventable through health care are less frequent in Canada than in the U.S., according to a January 2008 report in the journal Health Affairs. In the study by British researchers, Canada placed sixth among 19 countries surveyed, with 77 deaths for every 100,000 people. That compared with the last-place finish of the U.S., with 110 deaths.

Infant Mortality

The Canadian mortality rate from asthma is one quarter of the U.S.’s, and the infant mortality rate is 34 percent lower, OECD data show. People in Canada are also 21 percent more apt to survive five years after a liver transplant.

Yet the Canadian “bogeyman,” as U.S. President Barack Obama (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Barack%0AObama&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) called it at an Aug. 11 gathering in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, may have “all but defeated” the idea of a public option in the U.S., said Uwe Reinhardt (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Uwe+Reinhardt&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a health-care economist at Princeton University in Princeton, New Jersey.
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Max+Baucus&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), Democrat from Montana, introduced on Sept. 16 compromise health-care legislation that, unlike other House and Senate bills, omits a government-backed choice for the uninsured living in the U.S. who can’t afford private coverage.
Insurance Mandate

Private insurers, the pharmaceutical industry and the medical profession fear the “market power” of a public plan, Reinhardt said. They “deployed certain think tanks to find horror stories around the world that can be used to persuade Americans a public health plan in the U.S. would bring rationing.”

Given that Congress is likely to pass a mandate to cover the uninsured, Americans forced to buy policies will be left with no alternative to coping with “double-digit rate increases” on commercial premiums, Reinhardt said.
“Both systems ration medical care,” he said. “In Canada, they make people wait. In the U.S., we make people pay.”

Fifty-four percent of chronically ill Americans reported skipping a test or treatment, neglecting to go to a doctor when sick, or failing to fill a prescription because of the cost, according to a 2008 survey (http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Surveys/2008/2008-Commonwealth-Fund-International-Health-Policy-Survey-of-Sicker-Adults.aspx) by the Commonwealth Fund (http://www.commonwealthfund.org/), a foundation that focuses on health care, and pollster Harris Interactive. That was more than twice the number in Canada, data from those New York-based groups showed.

Payment Worries

As the price of health care in the U.S. has risen three to four times faster than the rate of inflation, surveys show that Americans have become concerned they won’t be able to pay medical bills. Forty-three percent of consumers in a June poll (http://www.rwjf.org/healthreform/product.jsp?id=46009) by the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor said they worried they might not be able to afford care, even with insurance.

“Canadians value fairness, and they cannot conceive of a system in which someone can’t get health care,” said Wendy Levinson, a Canadian who runs the department of medicine at the University of Toronto and worked in the U.S. from 1979 to 2001.

The U.S. spent $7,290 on health care for each person in 2007, 87 percent more than Canada’s $3,895, according to the latest OECD data. The U.S. also devoted the highest percentage of gross domestic product to health care, 16 percent, OECD numbers show. Canada’s expenditure was 10.1 percent.

Canada’s system (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/index-eng.php) consists of 10 provincial and three territorial nonprofit insurance plans that cover all citizens, including those with pre-existing conditions. It operates like Medicare, the U.S. program for the elderly and disabled. In Canada, the government uses taxpayer funds to pay claims by doctors, who mostly work in private practice or for a hospital and are paid fees for their services.

Effect of Technology

Care is free where it’s provided, as in a doctor’s office, except for dentistry, nursing home stays, prescription drugs outside hospitals, and rehabilitation services. The elderly and low-income residents get help with pharmaceutical purchases.

Technology partly explains the cost discrepancy between the two nations. There are 67 percent more coronary-bypass procedures in the U.S. than in Canada and 18 percent more Caesarean sections, OECD data show. In 2006, the U.S. had more than four times the number of magnetic resonance imaging units - - 26.5 for every million residents compared with 6.2 for every million in Canada -- making Americans three times more likely than Canadians to get a scan, according to the OECD.

In the U.S., technology is “overused” because doctors have to justify equipment purchases with revenue, according to Gerard Anderson (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Gerard+Anderson&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a professor of public health and medicine at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. Canada in the 1960s was about as expensive as the U.S., he said.

No. 1 in Cost

“The real difference has been their ability to control technology costs,” said Anderson, who directed reviews of health systems for the World Bank and developed U.S. Medicare payment guidelines for the Health and Human Services Department. “The only thing the U.S. is consistently No. 1 in when it comes to international comparisons with Canada and other OECD countries is cost.”

Less technology and, according to a 2007 report from the World Health Organization, 20 percent fewer doctors in Canada than in the U.S. have led to longer lines north of the border.

In 2008, 20 percent of chronically ill Canadians surveyed (http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Surveys/2008/2008-Commonwealth-Fund-International-Health-Policy-Survey-of-Sicker-Adults.aspx) by the Commonwealth Fund reported waiting three months or more to see a specialist. Five percent of Americans polled said they had to wait that long.

Television Commercial

Washington-based lobbying groups including Americans for Prosperity (http://www.americansforprosperity.org/about) and FreedomWorks have seized upon the delays, arguing that Obama’s proposal for a public option would eventually put private insurers out of business and force everyone to live with government-paid coverage and substandard care. FreedomWorks is led by Dick Armey (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Dick+Armey&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a former Republican congressman from Texas.

An educational foundation affiliated with Americans for Prosperity paid $3.3 million to run a 60-second television commercial on U.S. stations in which Shona Holmes, a 45-year-old native of Waterdown, Ontario, accused the Canadian health-care system of almost causing her to die by delaying critical treatment, according to Amy Menefee, a spokeswoman for the foundation. The ad ran for three weeks and was repeated on Sept. 9 after the president’s speech.

The TV spot first aired in May. Holmes, a mother of two and a self-employed family mediator, said in the ad that she went to the U.S. for care. She traveled 2,237 miles (3,599 kilometers) to the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Arizona, and spent $97,000 for treatment of a benign brain tumor rather than wait for insurance-paid care in Canada, she said in a telephone interview.

Bridge to Canada

“I felt strongly I could speak out because I’ve seen both systems,” Holmes said. “I have seen how government involvement plays very negatively.”
Obama administration officials are trying to use the public option as “a bridge” to a system like Canada’s since “they realize it isn’t politically acceptable to go directly to that,” said Phil Kerpen, the director of policy for Americans for Prosperity.

In Ontario, where Holmes lives, the average waiting time for surgery to remove a tumor was 99 days in the second quarter, according to the Ontario Health Insurance Plan’s Web site (http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/index.html). If a patient was willing to go closer to Ottawa, the wait was 36 days at Pembroke Regional Hospital Inc. in Pembroke, 460 miles from Waterdown and 93 miles northwest of the Canadian capital. Closer to Waterdown, a patient could go to St. Joseph’s Healthcare Hamilton, less than 10 miles away, with a 56-day wait.

Ontario Appeal

Holmes began speaking out publicly, she said, after she couldn’t get Ontario in July 2005 to speed removal of her craniopharyngioma (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000345.htm), a type of slow-growing cystic tumor that can put pressure on the brain or optic nerve. She is now pushing for the province’s insurance plan to reimburse her for the money she spent on surgery, tests and follow-up, she said in the interview.

Andrew Morrison, a spokesman for the Ontario plan, said Canadians need approval before getting care outside the country if they want to be reimbursed. He declined to comment on the Holmes case. Lori Coleman, registrar for the Toronto-based Health Services Appeal and Review Board, which handles complaints about the Ontario plan’s eligibility and payment decisions, also declined to comment.

Even with the waits, a majority of Canadians balk at the idea of turning government insurance over to private hands. In a July Harris/Decima poll (http://www.harrisdecima.ca/index.php?q=releases/2009/07/10/202-most-say-health-care-syste), 55 percent of respondents said improvement should be made through the public plan, while 12 percent favored a private solution.
Doctor Visits

In both the U.S. and Canada, 26 percent of people interviewed told the Commonwealth Fund survey of chronically ill adults they got a same-day appointment with a doctor when they were sick -- the lowest number in any of the eight countries polled by the foundation. Thirty-four percent of the Canadians said they had to wait six days or more, compared with 23 percent of the Americans.

Canadians visited their doctors more frequently: 5.9 visits per person compared with four for those in the U.S., according to 2005 OECD data.
The U.S. leads industrial countries in the portion of the health-care dollar devoted to processing claims and paying providers, the Commonwealth Fund said.

Private-insurance administrative costs in the U.S. are 12.7 cents of a dollar, and as high as 18 cents for some companies, said Karen Davis (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Karen+Davis&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), president of the Commonwealth Fund. Government plans, including Medicare and Medicaid, spend 5.8 cents excluding costs of private drug plans, she said. In Canada 4.2 cents is spent on administration.

“If we lowered our administrative costs to that of the lowest three countries with mixed public-private health-care systems, we could save $50 billion a year,” Davis said. “This would go a long way toward financing coverage for the uninsured.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Pat Wechsler (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Pat+Wechsler&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) in New York at [email protected]
Last Updated: September 18, 2009 12:22 EDT

http://images.bloomberg.com/r06/navigation/copyright.gif

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Americans always need to consider themselves better than every other country and people, aka, American Exceptionalism, so looking at how and why other countries are so far ahead of America in health care is inconceivable.

mogrovejo
09-21-2009, 03:42 PM
Waste?

The one "freedom" of a white elephant in the room is that 70% of US health bill is wasted on:


By "wasted health bill" you mean programs like Medicare or Medicaid or money that individuals voluntarily choose to spend on healtchare?




The allegations are wrong by almost every measure, according to research by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (http://www.oecd.org/home/) and other independent studies published during the past five years.

OECD is an independent institution? By which standards? It's an organization formed, sponsored and financed by governments, filled with government bureaucrats that, obviously, always defend more power to the state and more jobs and power to their own elite.

boutons_deux
09-21-2009, 03:59 PM
"wasted health bill" you mean ....

... people who cause their own diseases and medical bills.

To repeat: 70% of US health bill is treating preventable chronic diseases.

NoOptionB
09-21-2009, 04:04 PM
So boutons is saying the strongest should survive. Let the fat smokers die off.

Yet boutons wants more government. Government that prevents the above from happening.

mogrovejo
09-21-2009, 04:09 PM
1. Of course insurance companies will dump the costs of high-risks individuals in the public pool - or, as an alternative, they will be treated worse in terms of quality of service. Of course that taxes will be passed on to workers.

2. But Ms. Shields defined the tax as vital to discouraging insurance coverage that is overly generous. “High-cost health plans are a major contributor to skyrocketing health care costs,” she said.

I find this amusing. What's exactly the point? This is like passing a legislation that would supposedly make housing more affordable by prohibiting the building of luxury condos or food more affordable by prohibiting luxury restaurants and barring the importations of beluga. Stricto sensu, this works up to a point, as consumers will spend their money in other goods: it'd be very good news to Bently and Ferrari, for example. But does anyone want to guess what would happen to the price of 3 room flats, vegetables and pizzas?

coyotes_geek
09-21-2009, 04:10 PM
By "wasted health bill" you mean programs like Medicare or Medicaid or money that individuals voluntarily choose to spend on healtchare?

I believe he was talking about the waste that occurs within our healthcare system when we have to treat a bunch of couch potatoes who voluntarily choose to spend their money on fast food, cigarettes and alcohol.

mogrovejo
09-21-2009, 04:11 PM
"wasted health bill" you mean ....

... people who cause their own diseases and medical bills.

To repeat: 70% of US health bill is treating preventable chronic diseases.

But as long as they're paying their own bills, what's exactly the problem with that? I guess they'll either die sooner because they won't be able to purchase medical care that fits their needs or try to reduce the consumption of cigars and hamburguers, but I fail to see how does that improve the situation of those who don't suffer from chronic diseases.

coyotes_geek
09-21-2009, 04:12 PM
So boutons is saying the strongest should survive. Let the fat smokers die off.

As a potential compromise I suggest the junk food tax.

mogrovejo
09-21-2009, 04:19 PM
I believe he was talking about the waste that occurs within our healthcare system when we have to treat a bunch of couch potatoes who voluntarily choose to spend their money on fast food, cigarettes and alcohol.

Yeah, but isn't that a good argument against a government sponsored individual mandate? The Baucus Bill will just transfer those costs from those individuals to the public, taxpayers or consumers, or make the insurance companies to use quality competition to control the costs from high-risk individuals. In any case, I fail to see who gains something with this.

coyotes_geek
09-21-2009, 04:23 PM
Yeah, but isn't that a good argument against a government sponsored individual mandate? The Baucus Bill will just transfer those costs from those individuals to the public, taxpayers or consumers, or make the insurance companies to use quality competition to control the costs from high-risk individuals. In any case, I fail to see who gains something with this.

Agreed. Government putting itself into the insurance business isn't going to solve anything. That being said, we are a nation of couch potatoes and if there were somehow a way to get people to eat healthier, exercise and take it easy on the booze and tobacco then we would all be much better off for it.

Aggie Hoopsfan
09-21-2009, 04:52 PM
Repugs gonna gut this bill with 100s of amendments.

Guess you slipped in during home school the day where mommy was supposed to explain to you that the Dems control what, if any, amendments get posted to the bills.

But by all means, keep up the ignorant partisan hack job, it's all you've got going for you in your life :tu

Winehole23
09-21-2009, 05:48 PM
564 amendments (http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/09/21/baucus-health-bill-564-proposed-amendments-and-counting/) offered.

The Senate Finance Committee's legislation page (http://finance.senate.gov/sitepages/legislation.htm).

boutons_deux
09-21-2009, 07:29 PM
"Government putting itself into the insurance business isn't going to solve anything"

If the public had a bonus/incentive program, where people could win significant reductions in the already-cheaper-than-private public plan premiums for testing within healthy params, then the govt could give people a chance to solve/prevent their own health problems, and speak the only language Americans understand, $$$.

That would be serious price competition to run the private insurance compnanies into niches like gold-plated plans for people too good the public option.

spursncowboys
09-21-2009, 07:37 PM
Guess you slipped in during home school the day where mommy was supposed to explain to you that the Dems control what, if any, amendments get posted to the bills.

But by all means, keep up the ignorant partisan hack job, it's all you've got going for you in your life :tu
Senator Barrasso(R) said in Morning Joe there were over 500 amendments in the baucus bill for tomorrow. At 2:00 min past he talks about nothing in the bill starting until 2013, except taxing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/#32951148

boutons_deux
09-21-2009, 07:51 PM
"boutons is saying the strongest should survive"

no, he's not. You are.

"But as long as they're paying their own bills"

Nothing wrong, but almost nobody with chronic disease is paying ALL their bills. Their insurance group is paying almost all of it. And those poor people (heavily Hispanic and black) treated at public hospitals (reimbursed by state/federal and mandated to treat everybody) pay nothing. Taxpayers pay for them.

TII diabetes, a typical lifestyle self-inflicted disease, can run over $50K year, and there are 10s of millions with it, and 10s of millions more are pre-diabetic, and getting younger and younger.

And that's $50K/year just for diabetes. Wait til the diabetes screws up cardiovascular system, kidneys, amputations, then we're into the 100s of $1000s.

I just saw an estimate today that cutting salt consumption could save $18B/year.

150K dead/year from SAM, smoking-attributable-mortality. End-stage treatments for cancer is easily $200K/person.

How naive to think that anybody can pay chronic or catastrophic disease/accident bills out of his own pocket. Those kinds of bills are paid by the insurance group or taxpayers.

So people who are free to fuck themselves up JUST BECAUSE NOBODY STOPS THEM are profoundly irresponsible members of society.

It's a fucking stupid society that guarantees freedoms but expect no societal obligations and responsibility.

Aggie Hoopsfan
09-21-2009, 09:27 PM
It's a fucking stupid society that guarantees freedoms but expect no societal obligations and responsibility.

It's a dumb society that expects to rob from the responsible folks in it to pay for the irresponsibility and lazy lifestyles of those who choose not to take care of themselves.

And just to be clear - if a person wants to screw themselves up, eating junk food, drinking, etc. all the time, no one should be responsible for the decisions that individual makes except for that individual.

And if I decided to be that way, I wouldn't expect anyone to pick up the tab for my lifestyle decisions either. Nut up and take care of yourself instead of being such a freeloader or expecting everyone to take care of you and your own problems.

boutons_deux
09-21-2009, 09:39 PM
"if I decided to be that way, I wouldn't expect anyone to pick up the tab for my lifestyle decisions either."

so you have enough money to pay all your own chronic/catastrophic medical bills out of your own pocket?

spursncowboys
09-21-2009, 10:21 PM
It's a dumb society that expects to rob from the responsible folks in it to pay for the irresponsibility and lazy lifestyles of those who choose not to take care of themselves.

And just to be clear - if a person wants to screw themselves up, eating junk food, drinking, etc. all the time, no one should be responsible for the decisions that individual makes except for that individual.

And if I decided to be that way, I wouldn't expect anyone to pick up the tab for my lifestyle decisions either. Nut up and take care of yourself instead of being such a freeloader or expecting everyone to take care of you and your own problems.
:toast here here

boutons_deux
09-22-2009, 05:38 AM
"no one should be responsible for the decisions that individual makes except for that individual."

wonderful principle, really a total fantasy. Even materialistic, militaristic, secular America has a little bit of Christian morality to "care for the sick", is why public, taxpayer-financed hospitals cannot turn away anybody.

And of course even private insurance plans spread the cost of paying for high-cost clients with self-inflicted disease to clients who make little or no claims.

Magic Negro has talked about prevention, but he hasn't really pushed it, and of course the Repugs would never go along with such a sane idea.

We know reducing the national health costs will never come from the health care system lowering their bills(revenues), so really the only way to reduce costs is to reduce preventable, self-inflicted chronic disease, but America is too dumb and irresponsible for that.