Vital C/F and SF/SG 3rd rotation spots

[MaNu4Tres]

These spots in the rotation behind Duncan and McDyess and behind RJ and Manu will be extremely important when we face up against the elite of the league come May and June. We will need this player to perform at a high level and hopefully this player can perform on both ends of the floor. Here's our current situation and perhaps how the situation may play out:

Frontcourt situation outside of Duncan and McDyess:

With 35-40 MPG up for grabs at the PF/ C position it would be great if someone out of the Bonner/ Blair/ Haislip/ Mahimni cluster could seperate themselves into the 3rd spot in our rotation. Let's be honest though each of those players have huge question marks and liabilities. Bonner's interior defense and ability to contest shots effectively, Blair's pick and roll defense, Haislips inability to have a career in the NBA, Mahimni's ability to be injured every 2 months. I believe Ratliff will have a small part in the rotation ( 8 -10 minutes a game) due to the fact that he brings things to the table that no one else can on the roster ( shotblocking and altering shots around the rim, which initiates fast breaks and easy points on the other end.) I'm a fan of quality more than quantity.

Spurs need clear-cut quality behind Duncan and Dyess and hopefully it's one of those four as the season concludes in late June.

Wing situation outside of Manu and Jefferson:

There will be 35-40 minutes available behind RJ and Manu. Last year Mason played 30 minutes, Finley played 28 minutes, Bogans played 20 minutes. Time will be cut drastically for these three players. All these three players bring the same things to the table offensively, which is spot up shooting without the ability to create off the dribble effectively. Except Mason is better than both of them in P &R opportunties ( which is nothing to brag about because he is only effective when the Spurs play lazy P &R defensive teams), but that won't be his role this year anyway so thats irrelevant. Bogans is the best of the 3 on the defensive end. So what gives? How will Pop manage those three minutes if they all are deserved the minutes? Thats why it would be nice if they could package two of them in a 2 for 1 deal for a player that isn't a one trick pony like Mason and Finley.

Someone like Nocioni or Stephen Jackson who would bring defense, shooting, rebounding, creating off the dribble, and the tenacity and energy that's been lacking from our perimeter players outside of Manu. I personally believe Nocioni would bring a toughness to the Spurs. His hard nosed pitt-bull type approach to games gives him the dirty label that all of us Spurs fans love to have. He would be our new Bruce Bowen/ Mario Elie/ Dennis Rodman on the defensive end, but with the ability to be a real threat offensively because of him being multi-dimensional and his ability to shoot the 3 ball at the 40 percent mark.

If we do indeed turn 2 perimeter players for one better overall perimeter player like SJax and Nocioni, they would earn a big chunk of the 35-40 minutes available no questions asked. This would give us two wings on the court who can be threats on both ends of the floor during the vast majority of the game. This is something Spurs have never had. A Manu/ Jefferson/ SJax or Nocioni 3 wing rotation, with Bogans filling in 8-10 minutes a game at the 4th wing due to foul trouble would be damn scary.

http://www.todobasketball.com/img/biografia-de-andres-nocioni.jpg



Trade scenarios and situations that most likely will happen close to the deadline:
More than likely the Spurs will go into the season with the current roster and assess the team accordingly during the first 3 months of the year. There main focus should be the productivity of their 3-4 PF/C spots in the rotation. This could lead to certain scenarios to play out down the line:

Trading for a wing:
This scenario where the Spurs trade for an upgrade in the 3rd wing spot would most likely happen IF one or two players from the Bonner/ Blair/ Haislip/ Mahimni cluster are having a great year. The Spurs could then field offers for their expired contracts of Bonner/ Mason or Finley for an overall upgrade on the 3rd wing spot behind RJ and Manu.

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/05/02/kobe-topper.jpg
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/1005/pg2_a_jackson_195.jpg
Trading for a post: If Blair ends up being a typical non-productive 2nd round pick, if Haislip ends up being a bust on his 2nd go around, and if Mahimni has a typical Mahimni type year then I could see the Spurs using Mason/ Bonner or Finley/ Bonner pick trade bait for someone like Camby. Especially if Bogans shows the FO that he deserves some run, which would make Mason an expendable trading asset for a big man.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/marcus_camby_superman.jpg


All in all I believe Pop and R.C will do their best to put together the best rotation possible before we start the real wars in late April. Yeah we have a great quantity of depth behind Duncan and McDyess and Manu and Jefferson but it's the quality of those players that will make or break Duncan's 5th championship aspirations.

[gospursgojas]

When will we ever get over camby?

[MaNu4Tres]

When will we ever get over camby?

I take it your still a fan of picture books.

[EricB]

When will we ever get over camby?

The same day they get over Scola and Pops Mensah Bonsu.

[HarlemHeat37]

Manu4Tres always pushing his Mason trade ideas in every thread..gotta love it..

[MaNu4Tres]

Manu4Tres always pushing his Mason trade ideas in every thread..gotta love it..

It wasn't the purpose of the thread. I was going over scenarios that could play out. Thanx for the 2 cents though.

[MaNu4Tres]

When will we ever get over camby?

Where in the OP does it say spurs need to trade for camby? Or is camby used as an example? Don't know you might want try reading before babbling about a picture.

[raspsa]

A lot of "ifs" that need to be answered before any possible remedial actions are warranted.. I'll withhold judgment till after the rodeo roadtrip at the very least.

[barbacoataco]

If Ginobili is healthy and plays 20+ mpg every night, coupled with Jefferson getting a lot of minutes, then mason,finley and bogans will really be fighting for minutes. But Ginobili and/or Finley might be off on back to backs, so that might help get some minutes for everyone. Ultimately I think Pop knows that the team he had last year was not championship quality, so I think he'll be looking to make some changes in the rotation.

[ChumpDumper]

If they win a lot of games, they might not trade anyone.

[Bruno]

What matters are playoffs, and in playoff there won't have 35-40 minutes available behind Manu/RJ but about 25 minutes. Spurs have Mason, Finley and Bogans to play these 25mpg. Even if a team should always try to improve his roster, Spurs are damn fine at SG/SF.

The situation at PF/C is way more nebulous with a lot of question marks. We have quite no idea on how things will pan out during the training camp/start of the season.

And Nocioni isn't a wing, he is a SF/PF. If Spurs put a trade for him, he would help both the SG/SF rotation and the PF/C rotation. This tweener aspect is what make him an interesting target for Spurs.

[mountainballer]

agree about this analysis.
PO rotations is what really matters and Pop almost always has reduced the PO rotation to 3 bigs, 3 wings and 2 PG. the 4th big and 4th wing usually gets very limited minutes.
when Pop played a 4 men wing rotation, (or even 5, like 2008) he for sure didn't do it because he thought it's more effective. it was because 2 players from the top 3 struggled. (Manu was hurt and Fin was just bad).
right now it's open, who will get either the 3rd wing spot and the 3rd big spot. Mason is the logical choice for the 3rd wing, especially with RJ to balance the size and athleticism deficit.
3rd big is also a big question. can't see a rookie like Blair immediately take this role (would be a nice surprise if he could though), but I also can't see Bonner ever take a PO rotation role again and Ratliff is simply to old.
but what would it mean if Nocioni is brought in?
as mentioned, he would play combo and considering the quality chart, he would play more PF than SF.
so, literally he would be the 3rd big. which means, that the Spurs go small a lot. this might work most of the time, question is, would it work against the Lakers? (who then would likely try to overpower us with big line ups, maybe even Gasol-Bynum-Odom alongside)
I'm pretty sure Nocioni would help in many situations and of course, if Spurs get him for a package like Fin+Matt, this would improve the team.
not really sure if he's the perfect solution for the PO.

[MaNu4Tres]

What matters are playoffs, and in playoff there won't have 35-40 minutes available behind Manu/RJ but about 25 minutes. Spurs have Mason, Finley and Bogans to play these 25mpg. Even if a team should always try to improve his roster, Spurs are damn fine at SG/SF.

The situation at PF/C is way more nebulous with a lot of question marks. We have quite no idea on how things will pan out during the training camp/start of the season.

And Nocioni isn't a wing, he is a SF/PF. If Spurs put a trade for him, he would help both the SG/SF rotation and the PF/C rotation. This tweener aspect is what make him an interesting target for Spurs.

I agree about less minutes being available in the post-season because minutes go up for the obvious best players on the roster. I agree Nocioni has the ability to play the small ball PF. But if he were to be traded for, a three wing rotation would consist of Manu, Jefferson, and Nocioni with Bogans filling in spot minutes during foul trouble. It would be a damn solid rotation. And of course Spurs could throw out a Duncan, Nocioni, Jefferson, Manu, Tony rotation during stints, which would make Nocioni a damn good pick-up.

[tav1]

FWIW: I think Miami is a possible trade partner. They have too many wings and not enough bigs. They also have a 3.2 million trade exception, which they would only want to use after waiving players like Chris Quinn to create cap space.

I've always like James Jones. He's be an ideal 3/4 to play behind Jefferson. Decent defense, low turnovers, corner 3s. Some ability to defend mobile 4s.

Matt Bonner for Jones doesn't work straight up, but something like Bonner and Dwayne Jones could.

I'm not a Bonner hater. He has good value as a role player. But a combination of Haislip and Jones would compensate for his shooting. And both Haislip and Jones give the Spurs a little more versatility on defense.


Jones' contract is manageable, and the next few years are only partially guaranteed.

[MaNu4Tres]

FWIW: I think Miami is a possible trade partner. They have too many wings and not enough bigs. They also have a 3.2 million trade exception, which they would only want to use after waiving players like Chris Quinn to create cap space.

I've always like James Jones. He's be an ideal 3/4 to play behind Jefferson. Decent defense, low turnovers, corner 3s. Some ability to defend mobile 4s.

Matt Bonner for Jones doesn't work straight up, but something like Bonner and Dwayne Jones could.

I'm not a Bonner hater. He has good value as a role player. But a combination of Haislip and Jones would compensate for his shooting. And both Haislip and Jones give the Spurs a little more versatility on defense.


Jones' contract is manageable, and the next few years are only partially guaranteed.

That wouldn't improve our 3rd wing rotation spot. If that trade were to happen Jones would only see the floor if we had an injury problem at the SF/SG position or if we were in deep foul trouble. He would be competing for the 4th/5th wing position with Bogans and Finley. Not a smart quality move to make with our trading assets.

[mountainballer]

That wouldn't improve our 3rd wing rotation spot. If that trade were to happen Jones would only see the floor if we had an injury problem at the SF/SG position or if we were in deep foul trouble. He would be competing for the 4th/5th wing position with Bogans and Finley. Not a smart quality move to make with our trading assets.

oh yes, it would.
at this point JJones is much better than Finley and he is also better than Bogans. he would at least claim the #4 spot in the wing rotation, but IMO he would be ahead of Mason. there would still be the question, if it's a smart move, because in Jones you also buy a lot of injury risk. but talking about quality, he (healthy) definitely is an upgrade and (as mentioned) could do a lot of small PF defense. (IMO in this department he is far better than Nocioni)
not without a reason the Spurs wanted him (off season 2005), before Finley showed up and the free money was used for his signing.

[tav1]

That wouldn't improve our 3rd wing rotation spot. If that trade were to happen Jones would only see the floor if we had an injury problem at the SF/SG position or if we were in deep foul trouble. He would be competing for the 4th/5th wing position with Bogans and Finley. Not a smart quality move to make with our trading assets.

You might be right, but Jones would virtually the same value as whomever he replaced. And he really doesn't play any 2 these days. He's a straight 3 and occasional small ball 4. But I'll grant your point that there is no guarantee that he beats out Bogans. I just like the depth and flexibility.

[mountainballer]

FWIW: I think Miami is a possible trade partner. They have too many wings and not enough bigs. They also have a 3.2 million trade exception, which they would only want to use after waiving players like Chris Quinn to create cap space.

I've always like James Jones. He's be an ideal 3/4 to play behind Jefferson. Decent defense, low turnovers, corner 3s. Some ability to defend mobile 4s.

Matt Bonner for Jones doesn't work straight up, but something like Bonner and Dwayne Jones could.

I'm not a Bonner hater. He has good value as a role player. But a combination of Haislip and Jones would compensate for his shooting. And both Haislip and Jones give the Spurs a little more versatility on defense.


Jones' contract is manageable, and the next few years are only partially guaranteed.

Spurs can't trade Dwayne Jones. if they need a filler for a Bonner for Jones trade, they likely take Williams, who then can be waived by the Heat. (unguarranteed contract)

btw. I doubt the Heat just try to dump Jones. so just Bonner won't be enough. it will take a teaser. other teams will offer something that's better. (better player or pick).

[Bruno]

But if he were to be traded for, a three wing rotation would consist of Manu, Jefferson, and Nocioni with Bogans filling in spot minutes during foul trouble.

I doubt it will work. Nocioni and Jefferson can't really play SG.

You are quite wrong on who Nocioni is. He isn't a SF who can occasionally play some PF. Since he has been in the NBA, he has played more PF than SF and has been better at the PF spot. If Spurs get Nocioni, he would likely play the 10mpg available behind Jefferson (in the playoffs) at the SF spot and about 15-20mpg at the PF spot.

[Bruno]

this might work most of the time, question is, would it work against the Lakers? (who then would likely try to overpower us with big line ups, maybe even Gasol-Bynum-Odom alongside)


Lakers plays with a 3 PF/C rotation of Odom, Gasol and Bynum.
Nocioni would be fine agaisnt Odom. He would also be fine at SF against Artest. I don't think Lakers would be a bad matchup for Nocioni.

However, you're right and it's true that Nocioni would be bad against some teams like Celtics.

[MaNu4Tres]

I doubt it will work. Nocioni and Jefferson can't really play SG.

You are quite wrong on who Nocioni is. He isn't a SF who can occasionally play some PF. Since he has been in the NBA, he has played more PF than SF and has been better at the PF spot. If Spurs get Nocioni, he would likely play the 10mpg available behind Jefferson (in the playoffs) at the SF spot and about 15-20mpg at the PF spot.

I guess we can agree to disagree. The wing positions are interchangable as Hedo played the SG and Jackson played the SG in 2003 and 2004 prove that. Jefferson is more than capable to play the SG position. SG and SF are nothing more than labels. Both are interchangable. IMO

Nocioni has the skills to play on the wing more so than the power forward position. Kind of like a more versatile Matt Harpring on both ends of the floor. ( Can shoot the three at a very high percentage and has the ability to break down the defense off the dribble). I agree he is a hybrid 3/4 but he is a Small Forward or a wing first and foremost.

[mountainballer]

I guess we can agree to disagree. The wing positions are interchangable as Hedo played the SG and Jackson played the SG in 2003 and 2004 prove that. Jefferson is more than capable to play the SG position. SG and SF are nothing more than labels. Both are interchangable. IMO

Nocioni has the skills to play on the wing more so than the power forward position. Kind of like a more versatile Matt Harpring on both ends of the floor. ( Can shoot the three at a very high percentage and has the ability to break down the defense off the dribble). I agree he is a hybrid 3/4 but he is a Small Forward or a wing first and foremost.

I assume you never ever have seen him play. he can do a lot of things. dribble? no!

btw. interchangeable. yes and no. Hedo and Sjax are not the best examples to prove this, they are both versatile and can handle the ball. there are quite a lot of SFs, who can defend the other teams SG, but would be a liability on offense because of their lack of ball handling skills. and you wouldn't want a SG like Mason defend the other teams SF (like Melo or Artest), would you?

[Phenomanul]

It would be a mistake to move Mason out of our system after only one year...

He's primed for a huge year this upcoming season...

[s0ldEONs0ul]

:sleep the team, as it is, is fine. Trade deadline isn't til mid-February.

[MaNu4Tres]

I assume you never ever have seen him play. he can do a lot of things. dribble? no!?


What I meant by breaking down the defense off the dribble was when the defense closes out hard on shooters. ( Something the elite teams do). When teams would close out hard on Bowen/Mason/ Finley and make them put it on the floor thats when we'd have problems scoring. After plays break down and when the ball rotates to the open shooter, good teams with good rotations are typically on cue with their defensive rotations and tend to be there to contest the shooter on time by running out. Nocioni can break down the defense when this happens a lot more effectively than Mason/ Bowen/ Finley because he has the ability to finish around the basket in multiple ways after one or two hard dribbles . That's what I meant by creating off the dribble because that would obviously be his role offensively ( spot up shooting and creating when teams run out hard). Obviously you were not aware of that because you thought of creating off the dribble meant crossing someone over in an isolation play which doesn't correlate to what his role would be.



btw. interchangeable. yes and no. Hedo and Sjax are not the best examples to prove this, they are both versatile and can handle the ball. there are quite a lot of SFs, who can defend the other teams SG, but would be a liability on offense because of their lack of ball handling skills. and you wouldn't want a SG like Mason defend the other teams SF (like Melo or Artest), would you?




Stephen Jackson wasn't a good ball-handler by any means. Your wrong there. You need your SG to be effective in pick and roll opportunities and be effective in a spot up shooting role especially with an interior presense. You don't have to be Rafer Alston to be effective in the pick and roll. And I don't like Mason guarding a lot of wings it's not just Lebron/ Artest/ Melo but also Kobe, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade, Jason Richardson, OJ Mayo to name of few of your shooting guards. But having two wings that have height/ length to contest shots effectively can be interchangable on the defensive end whether its SG or SF position. They can be equally interchangable on the offensive end as well. IMO

[Agloco]

So...... none of our aquisitions have played a minute yet and you're of the opinion that we need more upgrades?

I get the sense that everyone wants the to see the Spurs with starter caliber players from 1 to 12. Not happening. I don't see any more deals before the beginning of the season.

[MaNu4Tres]

So...... none of our aquisitions have played a minute yet and you're of the opinion that we need more upgrades?

I get the sense that everyone wants the to see the Spurs with starter caliber players from 1 to 12. Not happening. I don't see any more deals before the beginning of the season.

Read the OP,

I said if anything were to happen it would be close to the deadline.

[pad300]

This whole trade for Jax or Nocioni thing has gone WAY TO FAR. Does anyone seriously think that it's a good idea to lock in $30 Million+ (Manu 10, Jefferson 14, Noc/SJAX 6+, and 2 other players...), into the two easiest to fill spots (SF,SG) on the floor?

Also, by some measure, SJAX and NOCIONI are some of the most overpaid players in the league. I won't say that David Berri's Win's Produced methodology is perfect (or even definate), but an average player produces as WP/48 of 0.1.

SJAX in 08/09 0.049. In 07/08 -0.014. In 06/07 -0.001. In 05/06 0.038 (for his time with GS. He was worse when playing with Indiana).

NOCIONI in (at the midpoint of ) 08/09 -0.067. In 07/08 -0.027. In 06/07 0.096. In 05/06 0.146

Either of them worth $7 million a year? Doesn't look like it.

[coyotes_geek]

This whole trade for Jax or Nocioni thing has gone WAY TO FAR. Does anyone seriously think that it's a good idea to lock in $30 Million+ (Manu 10, Jefferson 14, Noc/SJAX 6+, and 2 other players...), into the two easiest to fill spots (SF,SG) on the floor?

Also, by some measure, SJAX and NOCIONI are some of the most overpaid players in the league. I won't say that David Berri's Win's Produced methodology is perfect (or even definate), but an average player produces as WP/48 of 0.1.

SJAX in 08/09 0.049. In 07/08 -0.014. In 06/07 -0.001. In 05/06 0.038 (for his time with GS. He was worse when playing with Indiana).

NOCIONI in (at the midpoint of ) 08/09 -0.067. In 07/08 -0.027. In 06/07 0.096. In 05/06 0.146

Either of them worth $7 million a year? Doesn't look like it.

I'm with you. I don't see the Spurs taking on another big contract. Especially not at SG/SF. Other than looking to dump Finley or Bonner to save some lux tax money it's highly unlikely the Spurs will make a trade.

[TIMMYD!]

No more trades happening until the deadline. Book it.

[MaNu4Tres]

Originally Posted by mountainballer

I assume you never ever have seen him play. he can do a lot of things. dribble? no!?

What I meant by breaking down the defense off the dribble was when the defense closes out hard on shooters. ( Something the elite teams do). When teams would close out hard on Bowen/Mason/ Finley and make them put it on the floor thats when we'd have problems scoring. After plays break down and when the ball rotates to the open shooter, good teams with good rotations are typically on cue with their defensive rotations and tend to be there to contest the shooter on time by running out. Nocioni can break down the defense when this happens a lot more effectively than Mason/ Bowen/ Finley because he has the ability to finish around the basket in multiple ways after one or two hard dribbles . That's what I meant by creating off the dribble because that would obviously be his role offensively ( spot up shooting and creating when teams run out hard). Obviously you were not aware of that because you thought of creating off the dribble meant crossing someone over in an isolation play which doesn't correlate to what his role would be.



Originally Posted by mountainballer

btw. interchangeable. yes and no. Hedo and Sjax are not the best examples to prove this, they are both versatile and can handle the ball. there are quite a lot of SFs, who can defend the other teams SG, but would be a liability on offense because of their lack of ball handling skills. and you wouldn't want a SG like Mason defend the other teams SF (like Melo or Artest), would you?



Stephen Jackson wasn't a good ball-handler by any means. Your wrong there. You need your SG to be effective in pick and roll opportunities and be effective in a spot up shooting role especially with an interior presense. You don't have to be Rafer Alston to be effective in the pick and roll. And I don't like Mason guarding a lot of wings it's not just Lebron/ Artest/ Melo but also Kobe, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade, Jason Richardson, OJ Mayo to name of few of your shooting guards. But having two wings that have height/ length to contest shots effectively can be interchangable on the defensive end whether its SG or SF position. They can be equally interchangable on the offensive end as well. IMO. The shooting guard position on our team will not be in charge of creating for others besides for Manu. In other words Jefferson can do what Mason/ Finley/ Bogans ( the quote un quote SG's) does offensively.


yes mountainballer I want your rebuttal.

[portnoy1]

Some love SJax and then Some love Nocioni ( I know I'm a big fan of his ). However the solution to the problem is pretty simple his name is Boris Diaw and I believe he is making $9million a year. Get him and then throw in a tall 7 footer ( Ok fine, Maybe not Diop but someone thats a C and thats big ). I dont know if wecan get him cause of the price. Everything really depends on this haislip guy. He is 6-10 and athletic. If he can play 4 and Duncan play 5 it would kinda be small ball. Then if he can play 3, cause of his outside shot ( hopefully shoots Bonners lights out ) then will have that SF/PF player that are rare to find in the NBA. And the Center Situation? well we just need to get one, no way around it. Either by trade or by signing. Looking at who is available we'll probably have to make a trade. I havent seen anybody talking about Center on this thread but that should be our #1 concern ( Protecting the Rim ) Remember what happened when we tried to make do with what we had ( 1st round lost to Dallas 4-1 )

[wildbill2u]

Pop said recently he's quite pleased with the depth on the coming squad compared to last year.

[MaNu4Tres]

Games like last night really make you realize how important the quality of the 3rd spots in the rotation are at the wing and at the post.

Right now Bonner, Mason, Bogans ain't going to cut it Pop. If they continue to be our main unit off the bench, it's going to be another long summer.

[Blackjack]

I could've swore I posted in this thread . . . :huh

Great OP and it's been a concern of mine all year as well; Salmons sure would've been nice.

But even if I was worried about they're lack of quality in the wing past Manu and RJ (the latter of which I wasn't a proponent of -- never have I wanted to be more wrong), I didn't see the utter nosedive coming from Mason. I figured he'd at least maintain in his second year and be a decent one-dimensional player; you had to figure the game would become easier for him with Manu back and more overall talent on the floor.

But Mason, along with Bogans (He beat out Hairston, don't ya know?), have proven, at this juncture, to be players suited for the end of the bench (if even employed). And as big a fan as I am and have been of George, he's not physically equipped to meet the demands of a stopper in this NBA. He's simply too small.

Ideally you wanted a legitimate Bowen replacement (comparable size, ability and skill set) but seeing as there wasn't a fit out there (Well, Ariza would've been pretty decent but he only became available after they traded for ... yeah . . .), they needed to just get an overall better player. They needed John Salmons. We knew it, the Spurs knew it. ... Unfortunately, they just couldn't get it done.

I thought this team had the potential to meet the Lakers in the WCF if they could stay healthy and come together (and maybe they could have had the season not played out as it did) but a stopper/better overall player and/or (preferably and) a clear-cut number 2 big was what was needed to put them over the top; 'Dyess is, and was, suited to be the first big off the bench.

It is what it is, though. (A fitting way to end this post. ... Words of the void.)