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duncan228
10-01-2009, 01:19 PM
The 10 best centers of the last decade (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-centers-of-the-last-decade;_ylt=AlujT12LlQ1W3JpLzLWTr8W8vLYF?urn=nba,1 93423)
By Kelly Dwyer
Ball Don't Lie

OK, we know the first decade of the 21st century doesn't really end until 2011. We think. But we also know there have been 10 full NBA seasons played since the phrase "Y2K" was on all of our lips (1999-2000), and here at Ball Don't Lie we've decided to use this as an offseason excuse to rank some of the best and not-so-brightest of the 10 campaigns in question. The result? Why, top 10 lists!

The rules may have changed; you can't touch point guards anymore, and it might be easier to pick up a sprightly 6-footer than find and mold a dominant 7-footer.

Doesn't matter. If you have a Hall of Fame pivotman, you're going to be in contention. You're playing the game from the inside-out, as it was meant to be played. You're going to win.

Feed the big man. Give him the ball. Let him know you care. Let him know that you, sprightly point guard, know how to play the game.

Then click the jump, for the 10 finest centers of the last decade.

10. Alonzo Mourning

I don't want to denigrate Mourning's passion for the game or will to return to the court, much less his accomplishments on the court while he was healthy. But Mourning also played in less than half of the games he could have from 1999 to 2008 because of illness and injury. Big heart, but bit part.

When he was able to perform, Zo was a defense-focused big who was capable of big shot-blocking nights even when he was playing fewer than 20 minutes a contest. Working on Nets and Heat teams that didn't depend on interior scoring as much, Mourning was allowed to save his energy for the other end and roam, roam, roam.

9. David Robinson

Sure, he only played from 1999 to 2003, but check the numbers.

About 13 points, 8.5 rebounds, two blocks, a steal and a low turnover rate in only 29 minutes a game. The Hall of Famer was a pocket All-Star in his last few years, and wholly deserves a spot on this list despite retiring in 2003.

8. Yao Ming

He hasn't played more than 57 games since 2004-05, but Yao has shown flashes of being an all-world center when he's healthy.

"When he's healthy." Sigh.

Forget it. The work he's put in is good enough. Scores from either block, from either hand, with several moves. Rebounds, changes shots, makes me tune in. Love watching him play, love watching him get a proper entry pass, and we'll all love it when he walks confidently back onto the court and starts dominating again.

7. Amar'e Stoudemire

Stoudemire broke into the league the same year as Yao (2002-03), and while he's been pretty injury-prone himself (missing almost all of 2005-06 and good chunks of 2003-04 and 2008-09), you cannot deny the young man's high- and low-post scoring aptitude.

No, he can't guard you, or tell you who Golda Meir is, but Amar'e can shoot, drive either direction, rebound and dominate games. He's sort of a fully realized Shawn Kemp, able to stay on the floor, able to play the pivot.

Now, fully realize it, Amar'e.

6. Zydrunas Ilgauskas

He gets no extra points for this, but it's worth bringing up.

We thought the man's career was over during the lockout year. We thought it was over in 1999-00, and we thought it was over in 2000-01, when he managed only 24 appearances. The total, between those three seasons? Twenty-nine games, in 214 chances to play.

But Big Z came back, as if nothing had ever happened. Shot the high percentage, turned into the best opening tip-off winner we've ever seen, started tapping in offensive rebound put-backs from all sorts of impossible angles, and holding it down on both ends for a series of either crappy, crafty or championship-worthy Cavalier teams.

5. Jermaine O'Neal

O'Neal's been bashed plenty, and he deserves a good chunk of it.

Never was a low-post workhorse. Always listed at power forward, despite playing the pivot. Missed heaps of games. Shot a low percentage. Probably made too much money, relative to his production.

You know what he also did? Averaged a double-double for three years, played otherworldly defense, blocked shots, worked his tail off.

No, he hasn't played 80 games since 2000-01, a season that saw "hanging chad" work as a somewhat-funny punch line for the first six weeks. He hasn't shot over 47 percent since becoming a starter, and we're not sure how much he has left. But O'Neal was such a dominant defensive force, moving his feet, that he deserves a bit of reflective praise.

4. Ben Wallace

Can't drop 25 points in an empty gym, but could probably hold a community college's starting five, by himself, to 25 points in 40 minutes in the same empty gym.

All Ben Wallace did, for years, was guard everyone, and then come up with the rebound. A couple of times a game, he blocked the other team's shot, but most importantly he guarded everyone and then came up with the rebound. Changed shots, chased away guards, helped his teammates, got in people's faces, and then got the rebound.

I don't care if he averages 20 air-balled free throws a season. His mere presence had opposing teams air-balling 20 shots a week.

3. Dwight Howard

Only on the scene since 2004-05, he's taken a while to come around defensively (despite all the blocks) and offensively (despite all the dunks), and he's a bloody beast.

Forget the mitigating factors. Forget the growing pains. Let's talk about right now, and what he's done right then. Howard has averaged 17.3 points, 12.5 rebounds, 2.9 combined steals/blocks, 57 percent shooting in 36 minutes a game.

Five seasons in, turns 24 in December. Good luck with all ... that.

2. Shaquille O'Neal

One of the greatest, if not the greatest, pivotmen ever.

That said, he's been injury-prone, he's showed up to camp out of shape, he hasn't really been a dominant force since 2003-04 or so. Sure, he came back to win a ring in Miami in 2005-06, and is still complaining about missing out on the MVP award in 2004-05, but he wasn't even the best player on either of those teams.

That said, O'Neal's 1999-00 turn was one of the greatest seasons of any center to ever play this game, he's still changing games and he's still throwing down. This just wasn't as fine a 10-year turn as the man who comes below this paragraph.

1. Tim Duncan

The same, old, story.

Duncan won't blow you away. Shaq seems scarier, and the "power forward" designation might throw you, but don't get shook.

Tim guards the low post (guards everything, really), and works from the low post while his "center" teammate (David Robinson, Nazr Mohammad, Fabricio Oberto, Matt Bonner) works anywhere from the high post (D-Rob, Nazr), the baseline (Fab), or the 3-point line (Red Rocket).

In the meantime, Duncan has destroyed teams defensively, drawn trillions of double teams, scored efficiently and generally acted as what we'd hoped Bill Walton would have turned into.

And he's done it consistently, nearly free from injury (1999-00 and 2008-09 were kind of tough) for years. You can't say that about Shaq.

And injuries aside? I'm sorry, but he's been better. The best. The best center, of the last decade.

Mel_13
10-01-2009, 01:22 PM
I thought he was going to continue to tick me off and put TD second to Shaq. Still should have been on the PF list.

angel_luv
10-01-2009, 01:23 PM
In that order?

manufan10
10-01-2009, 01:23 PM
Still doesn't change the fact that this guy told someone that they molest collies during a live chat. I've looked everywhere to see where we can e-mail someone about it, but I couldn't find it. You would think Yahoo! would keep their writers/bloggers to a higher standard, but I guess not.

manufan10
10-01-2009, 01:23 PM
I thought he was going to continue to tick me off and put TD second to Shaq. Still should have been on the PF list.

I was thinking the same thing. :lol

mexpurs21
10-01-2009, 01:25 PM
David Robinson>>>Amare, Yao, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal

lebomb
10-01-2009, 01:25 PM
Yep.................he is a PF period.

rjv
10-01-2009, 01:26 PM
so david he acknowledges as a center on the same team that he also has tim as a center on and then the rest is just hilarious. zilgauskas? amare? hell, even sabonis was better than these 2 are.

Shifty
10-01-2009, 01:28 PM
I wonder how much of yesterday's reaction went into his decision for today's list?

DPG21920
10-01-2009, 01:30 PM
People are going to complain and make fun of Drob being number 9. They won't realize it has to do with this decade and Rob did not play during most of it and he was at the end of his career when he did play in this decade.


David Robinson>>>Amare, Yao, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal

See.

greensborohill
10-01-2009, 01:33 PM
If anything this is even more cred than if he was at PF. Everyone knows he's better than Dirk & KG. . . . but there would be debate about him and Shaq. . and dude chose Duncan over Shaq. . . give Kelly his props.

coyotes_geek
10-01-2009, 01:34 PM
Given the timeframe Dwyer is restricting himself to, David at #9 is fair.


If anything this is even more cred than if he was at PF. Everyone knows he's better than Dirk & KG. . . . but there would be debate about him and Shaq. . and dude chose Duncan over Shaq. . . give Kelly his props.

Good point.

greensborohill
10-01-2009, 01:35 PM
I wonder how much of yesterday's reaction went into his decision for today's list?


None

I wish SA fans would stop with their stupid inferiority complex.

He's TIM FREAKIN' DUNCAN, he's an all-time great and is still the best player on the court on almost every night.

The dude didn't forget about him.. . he called a spade a spade and listed Duncan as a center. And he's the best center of the last 10 years.

mexpurs21
10-01-2009, 01:36 PM
See.

My bad, but still, I think that The Admiral is better than today's Ilgauskas

Jermaine O'Neal has been injured for 3 or 4 years, I still think DR is better than them.

DPG21920
10-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Like someone else mentioned the real conundrum here is that both Drob and Duncan are on the center list.

How can you say Drob operated in the high post even with Duncan, then put him as a center as well when that was the very argument you used against Duncan to being with?

da_suns_fan
10-01-2009, 01:39 PM
Pretty stupid list. Im gonna take some heat for this but:

1) Duncan was never as dominant as Shaq was between 2000-2002
2) Shaq made it to the finals five times in the decade. Duncan made it three.

Of course, putting Duncan at the center spot is stupid. When you think of centers from the 2000s obviously Shaq is number 1 and Duncan is the #1 PF.

UnWantedTheory
10-01-2009, 01:41 PM
eek.

DPG21920
10-01-2009, 01:44 PM
Will their be a chat on this again and if so when and where?

duncan228
10-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Will their be a chat on this again and if so when and where?


Questions? Comments? Furious and righteous anger at a world, not to mention top 10 list, gone wrong? Swing by later today at about 3 p.m. Eastern for a BDL mini-chat regarding this very list.

hater
10-01-2009, 01:51 PM
Pretty stupid list. Im gonna take some heat for this but:

1) Duncan was never as dominant as Shaq was between 2000-2002
2) Shaq made it to the finals five times in the decade. Duncan made it three.

Of course, putting Duncan at the center spot is stupid. When you think of centers from the 2000s obviously Shaq is number 1 and Duncan is the #1 PF.

do not bring logic into this thread!

you molest collies!

manufan10
10-01-2009, 01:56 PM
None

I wish SA fans would stop with their stupid inferiority complex.

He's TIM FREAKIN' DUNCAN, he's an all-time great and is still the best player on the court on almost every night.

The dude didn't forget about him.. . he called a spade a spade and listed Duncan as a center. And he's the best center of the last 10 years.

The problem is not where he is at, but with how he decided to make this list. Putting Shawn Marion in the PF top 10 as well as Gasol (who has spen the majority of his career playing C), then omitting Duncan. Duncan has played the majority of his career and this decade at PF. Then he turns around and puts Robinson and Duncan (who played on the same team) in the top 10 C's. They both didn't play Center on the Spurs team. Duncan was the PF and Robinson was the C. Very simple for someone to see how dumb this was. Then the fact that he told someone that he molests collies during the live chat, and you've got some pretty pissed off people.

ambchang
10-01-2009, 01:56 PM
Pretty bad list, I am not sure how he could put Yao Ming so low because of injuries, and Jermaine O'Neal so high despite the injuries. Same with Zydrunas Ilgauskas, he was injured as much as Yao Ming the first couple of seasons, and he was never even close to Yao in terms of productivity.

Why is Robinson listed as a center when he talked about him playing the high post as in a PF (his reason of putting Duncan at C?)

Why is Stoudemire a center?

manufan10
10-01-2009, 01:56 PM
do not bring logic into this thread!

you molest collies!

:lol

I'm going to use that any time someone beats me in an argument. :)

da_suns_fan
10-01-2009, 01:56 PM
do not bring logic into this thread!

you molest collies!

Its almost as if Dwyer purposely makes it controvertial just to get more buzz about his article.

Duncan has been a starting forward for the all star team every year this decade but Dwyer wants to name him as the best center of the decade? I dont care if he actually plays the game like a center, everyone knows he's technically a 4.

My ALL-NBA team of the decade:

C - Shaq
PF - Duncan
SF - KG (Yes, im allowed to do this)
SG - Kobe
PG - Kidd

This (above) was actually the starters for the West a couple of years in a row back when Kidd played for the Suns. Its just a shame they all didnt represent the US in the Olympicsin 2004 when they were all still (relatively) in their prime.

Second team:

C - Dwight Howard (I guess...it should be Yao or Amare)
PF - Dirk
SF - Lebron
SG - Dwayne Wade
PG - Nash (although this is 1a and I could easily switch them).

Xylus
10-01-2009, 02:27 PM
I think DSF is right that Duncan is this decade's #1 PF, not the #1 C. And Amare shouldn't be on this list, either, since he's not really a Center at all (regardless of the role his coaches put him in).

Brazil
10-01-2009, 02:35 PM
what a dumb list beginning with Tim and David in the same big list. stupid

WildcardManu
10-01-2009, 02:39 PM
another bad list

Supergirl
10-01-2009, 02:40 PM
David Robinson>>>Amare, Yao, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal

+1

and what's that about D Rob only playing from 1999-2003? Last I knew he was drafted in 1989?

#2!
10-01-2009, 02:45 PM
If anything this is even more cred than if he was at PF. Everyone knows he's better than Dirk & KG. . . . but there would be debate about him and Shaq. . and dude chose Duncan over Shaq. . . give Kelly his props.

I still don't like Dwyer, or agree that tim's a C, but you're right. Putting TD over shaq on this list is a much bigger compliment than saying he's better than KG and Dirk(which he is).

Still I was looking forward to holding onto my anger for a little while longer.:depressed:lol

HarlemHeat37
10-01-2009, 02:46 PM
It's interesting that he lists Stoudemire, Jermaine, and Duncan as 5s, but he has Gasol as a 4..

His lists have all been fucked up from a position standpoint actually..

newacc
10-01-2009, 02:46 PM
Its almost as if Dwyer purposely makes it controvertial just to get more buzz about his article.

You can take the word almost out of there.

WildcardManu
10-01-2009, 02:59 PM
You can take the word almost out of there.

yeah the guy needs a good :nutkick:

DPG21920
10-01-2009, 03:16 PM
+1

and what's that about D Rob only playing from 1999-2003? Last I knew he was drafted in 1989?

It is because it is a list from this decade, not overall. The only part that counts is what the person did in this decade.

024
10-01-2009, 05:25 PM
shaq should have been number one on the center list. he is the prototypical center. duncan should have been number one on the PF list.

Nathan Explosion
10-01-2009, 05:39 PM
DRob, Nazr, Rasho and Elson. Those are centers. Those are the centers that Duncan played next to until 2006, or if you want, the majority of the decade.

Duncan's been a PF the whole time (according to popular opinion as well), whether Dwyer likes it or not. That's what I told him. His response was that I molest collies, whether I like to admit it or not.

An admission of defeat.

Putting Duncan ahead of Shaq doesn't rectify this because Duncan's not a center and Shaq's been the best center this decade.

superbigtime
10-01-2009, 05:50 PM
This list is all kinds of wrong.

21_Blessings
10-01-2009, 06:04 PM
Duncan played more minutes at the center position this decade. Fact.

He's a center, period. Time to accept the obvious Spurs fan.

iManu
10-01-2009, 07:50 PM
He/She just needs to make a top 10 big men since 2000 and get it over with. That being said, I would still take 2000 Robinson over almost everyone on this list.

johnnyblues
10-01-2009, 08:14 PM
So... where's Rasheed in all of this? :bang

duncan228
10-01-2009, 08:18 PM
So... where's Rasheed in all of this? :bang

#7 on the Power Forward list.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135805

jdev82
10-01-2009, 08:27 PM
someone teach this man to use commas

Nathan Explosion
10-01-2009, 08:31 PM
Duncan played more minutes at the center position this decade. Fact.

He's a center, period. Time to accept the obvious Spurs fan.

No, Pau Gasol has and yet he's considered a PF.

Duncan played with DRob, Rasho, Nazr and Elson till the end of the 2007 season. Would you consider any of those guys PFs?

But i'm sure that doesn't matter to you. You're just trolling.

Funny thing is, we're actually saying that the center list actually is wrong for 2 reasons. 1) Duncan is a PF not a center. 2) Shaq is the best Center of the decade.

There's two kinds of fail with this list.

AnthonyM
10-01-2009, 08:47 PM
Duncan and Shaq have been the top two big men this decade. Period. The obvious way to acknowledge this, or to give them their due, is to put them each at number 1 on the PF and C list, their respective positions. It really isn't hard.

Regardless, however, Dwyer usually writes good articles, but his lists really have a lot of flaws this time around.

iggypop123
10-01-2009, 09:21 PM
i told you he was a center. his legacy suffers if he is a C not PF so i understand him wanting to be a PF

Nathan Explosion
10-01-2009, 10:44 PM
i told you he was a center. his legacy suffers if he is a C not PF so i understand him wanting to be a PF

Oh. He TOLD me Duncan was a center, so that makes him a center. I get it now.

carrao45
10-01-2009, 11:11 PM
David Robinson>>>Amare, Yao, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal

If you count his whole career...yes. But this list was for the 2000's, when he was not better than them

RuffnReadyOzStyle
10-02-2009, 12:43 AM
Who freakin cares? Lists always piss people off, half the people who "read" them don't pay attention to what they are actually about (see page #1), and they are essentially meaningless anyway because they are entirely subjective. I have no idea why journalists bother with them.

AnthonyM
10-02-2009, 03:31 AM
Who freakin cares? Lists always piss people off, half the people who "read" them don't pay attention to what they are actually about (see page #1), and they are essentially meaningless anyway because they are entirely subjective. I have no idea why journalists bother with them.

I agree with this!

even though this list does suck in so many ways....who the fuck really cares?

Duncan is hands down one of the greatest big men to ever play the game...whether or not kelly dwyer puts him at best C of best PF...hes still one of the best ever

so fuck it....articles are purely subjective...everyones knows duncan is one of the best big men of all time hands down...fuck the list...

the fact that duncan is being mentioned is an honor...along with the fact that true basketball fans can really appreciate how amazing tim duncan really is and what he means to the spurs and pro basketball

will_spurs
10-02-2009, 05:18 AM
1) Duncan was never as dominant as Shaq was between 2000-2002

That's probably why Duncan was voted MVP in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003...


2) Shaq made it to the finals five times in the decade. Duncan made it three.

And Shaq lost once. In the meanwhile Duncan got 2 MVPs this decade, and Shaq one. Shaq got 4 rings and Duncan 3 (this decade start conveniently just after Duncan won his first ring).


Of course, putting Duncan at the center spot is stupid. When you think of centers from the 2000s obviously Shaq is number 1 and Duncan is the #1 PF.

We finally agree on something.

Lars
10-02-2009, 05:58 AM
Don't care for these "decade" lists. It just makes shit confusing.

Danny.Zhu
10-02-2009, 07:44 AM
LOL. Yao at 8? Come on, every time he beat th crap out of Howard. He should be #2.

And of course Tim is a PF.

coyotes_geek
10-02-2009, 08:05 AM
LOL. Yao at 8? Come on, every time he beat th crap out of Howard. He should be #2.

And of course Tim is a PF.

Yao at 2? :lol

JamStone
10-02-2009, 12:06 PM
He/She just needs to make a top 10 big men since 2000 and get it over with. That being said, I would still take 2000 Robinson over almost everyone on this list.

+1

While there has been and will be more healthy debate over which players should be listed as power forward or center, the truth of it is that especially over the second half of this decade, the lines of definition have been blurred. More and more centers play the high post and shoot midrange to even long distance jumpers, point guards go into the low post, small forwards run the point and initiate the offense, 2-guards are blocking shots.

For the most part, there are still certain characteristics and traits you want from your center versus from your power forward, but the league has seen a definite evolution of the two positions where more and more hybrid PF/C players are playing either position or one they really aren't suited for. There are plenty of natural PFs playing the center position in the league, and as has been discussed quite a bit in this thread, there are plenty of natural centers who are claiming to be PFs.

I agree in large part it would have made more sense to just combined the two positions and do a list of the best "big men" of the decade.

Nathan Explosion
10-02-2009, 02:33 PM
Here's how Dwyer ended his center chat.


4:01
KDonhoops: Bam.
4:01
KDonhoops: Thanks guys, thanks G-man, read theblowtorch.net, stop world hunger, see you tomorrow at 3.
4:01
KDonhoops: Duncan's a power forward.

manufan10
10-02-2009, 02:35 PM
^ Is the guy on drugs or what? He must be the one molesting collies!

024
10-02-2009, 02:38 PM
Here's how Dwyer ended his center chat.
:lol i noticed that too.

duncan228
10-02-2009, 02:40 PM
KDonhoops: Duncan's a power forward.

Leaving Duncan off the Power Forward list was nothing but a publicity stunt. He made waves for a couple of days, got the big chat turn-out.


Duncan's been listed as a Power Forward his entire NBA career. It's what he wants to be called. Out of nothing else but respect for his accomplishments it's what he should be called.

FkLA
10-02-2009, 02:40 PM
Howard is so overrated, extremely raw offensively his first years and even now doesnt have much of an offensive game...he simply relies on the fact that he's bigger and more athletic than everyone else. Incredible what one Finals appearance can do for a player, a Finals appearance that had to do with Hedo and Lewis just as much as him. I could understand having him in the Top 10 because the quality of Centers has diminished so much but Top 3 is just stupid.

Also like has been stated it is just completely retarded how much people question whether Duncan is a PF or not just because of the way he plays, as if this argument couldnt be made for numerous other players. Is Dirk a SF because he plays in the perimeter? Shawn Marion? Is MJ a SF because he played that role in the triangle offense? It could go on all day.

Spursfan092120
10-02-2009, 02:49 PM
David Robinson>>>Amare, Yao, Ilgauskas, Jermaine O'Neal
this....and Ben Wallace

da_suns_fan
10-02-2009, 02:58 PM
That's probably why Duncan was voted MVP in 2001-2002 and 2002-2003...



And Shaq lost once. In the meanwhile Duncan got 2 MVPs this decade, and Shaq one. Shaq got 4 rings and Duncan 3 (this decade start conveniently just after Duncan won his first ring).



We finally agree on something.

1) Nash won the MVP over everybody in 2005 and 2006. Does that mean that Nash was better than Duncan, Kobe, KG etc?

2) Ill take 4-5 over 3-3 any day of the week when it comes to the finals.

Spurs fans are crazy if they think Tim Duncan even sniffed the dominance of Shaq. NO ONE has. I think a lot of you were probably too young in the early part of this decade to remember how unfair playing against him was.

da_suns_fan
10-02-2009, 03:01 PM
Stupidest shit I've ever read. Care to tell me who O'Neal's second best player on the team was in both cases(or first, in Miami's case)? Yeah... logic isn't your strong point.

Actually, Im using logic. YOURE just stating an opinion that Shaq had more success due to a stronger supporting cast which is completely subjective.

FkLA
10-02-2009, 03:04 PM
Shaq was more dominant offensively I agree, he was simply bigger and stronger than everyone...he would bulldoze through all-league defenders like D-Rob, Mutombo, Ratliff, etc and get position on them for easy 2 foot hooks or vicious dunks.

Duncan definitely had a more complete offensive arsenal though and was clearly the better defensive player. Factoring in both sides of the ball, I think that overall Duncan was a better player than Shaq this decade.

Nathan Explosion
10-02-2009, 05:00 PM
1)Spurs fans are crazy if they think Tim Duncan even sniffed the dominance of Shaq. NO ONE has. I think a lot of you were probably too young in the early part of this decade to remember how unfair playing against him was.

Shaq was more dominant than Duncan during that time period, but Duncan has been more consistent. Duncan hasn't had a drop off really, while Shaq's production is way down.

Duncan may have lost a step but Shaq is a shell of his former self.

As for the young comment, you're the one who's too young to remember things. I got two words: WILT CHAMBERLAIN.

ambchang
10-02-2009, 05:05 PM
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133031

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132810

While these posts certainly does not put to rest the Shaq vs. Duncan debate, it showed the statistical output of either player at their respective primes (02 Shaq vs. 03 Duncan) through a common opponent.

The stats were normalized through pace, and it showed that while Shaq was better than Duncan offensively, the difference is quite small. On the other hand, Duncan blew Shaq out of the water defensively (based on personal statistics).

BillMc
10-02-2009, 09:02 PM
Kelly seems to define his own positions. He probably thinks Tony is a 2 guard, you know, because he scores a lot and his asists are relatively average for a starter. And Fin is a coach, you know, because he's old...