Any Rasho defenders left??

[IceColdBrewski]

Just curious. They were pretty thick up until the point that Nazr made him look like the bench warmer that he is.

[T Park]

guess his defense on Okur couldve been used eh?

[Jdspur20]

(refering to ice's comment)

your offly bitter tonight, with all your posts your sounding more and more like a bandwaggon fan.

[IceColdBrewski]

guess his defense on Okur couldve been used eh?

Defense is nice. But points and rebounds are better.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

nazr was not guarding okur when he burned us, horry was, but horry had to defend the guard

i think horry was the only big man on the floor at that time wasnt he?

i saw bowen in the vicinity

[T Park]

so holding Okur under 25 would suck??


Good logic.

[dn0]

guess his defense on Okur couldve been used eh?

yeah the same D he used on Okur on the first loss.

[T Park]

Rasho was hurt during that game too Dno but dont let that hate blind you either.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well Tim wasn't. Are you saying Rasho > Tim?

Question.

[IceColdBrewski]

(refering to ice's comment)

your offly bitter tonight, with all your posts your sounding more and more like a bandwaggon fan.

Been a spurs fan since the age of 9. Through thick and thin. Call me what you want.

[T Park]

Well Tim wasn't. Are you saying Rasho > Tim?

Question

Nope.

But Duncan supposedly wasn't guard Okur alot tonight, it was Horry primarily


But, Rasho seems to guard opposing team's centers the best. He would've done so tonight.

[pjjrfan]

Rasho's prescense might have helped stem the tide of all those lay-ups that Utah kept doing throughout the game. And Rasho's help on the pick and roll defense would have helped with Okur and Eisley. I think the team missed the big guy big time. Rasho frustrates me cause he shows no emotions and seems to play without any fire, but the truth is he bails everybody out with his help defense, he hardly ever misses a defensive assignment.

[E20]

Rasho supporter yes. Rebounds is defense Ice.
Rasho adds another element for an offensive player to overcome when driving in or someone posting up. The man plays defense and that's what he's asked to do. All I want if he could be a little bit more aggressive and stay away from his jumper unless if he knows he has and is open.

[SLOVENIAN 8]

Defense is nice. But points and rebounds are better.

:lol :lol

Yea, i see a lot of points tonight from Nazr 1/5 2pts.
That could do Rasho easy too.

If Rasho would play i bet that Okur won`t have 25pts

[MannyIsGod]

Rasho is still this teams starting center by far. I don't look forward to a Yao Nazr matchup, but a Rasho Yaho matchup is something I'd love to see.

[orhe]

anyone who thinks Rasho ain't pivotal to the teams success doesn't know his basketball well

[BronxCowboy]

Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Why the hate for Rasho? Why do idiots like ICB think they have to make everything into Spur 1 vs. Spur 2? They're both still Spurs. For the record, though, if we could only have one, Rasho is by far the better choice.

[johnny00]

Defense is nice. But points and rebounds are better.

Defense wins CHAMPIONSHIPS my friend.

Have you been following any type of sports???

[MannyIsGod]

Ice is an Eagles fan. I wouldn't expect him to know anything about championships.

[Slo spurs fan]

Defense wins CHAMPIONSHIPS my friend.


^^^WORD!!

[boutons]

I didn't catch the whole segment , I think it was ESPN or NBA TV that had primarily defensive teams winning 11 titles, and primarily offensive teams winning 10. Don't ask details.

Spurs defense ain't going to get it done by itself. And when the Spurs defense isn't able to stop the opponent's offense, it often means a bad overall game for the Spurs where they can't score, either. And on the other side, when the Spurs are playing great defense, their offense is so good, they don't need the league-leading defense. :)

The Spurs weak offense is obviously very vulnerable to any team that hustles and plays defense. WC playoff teams that do that are Nuggets, Mavs, Grizz and Rockets. Spurs start with Grizz, then maybe Houston. At least we have HCA over both. The Spurs really don't want to get on the road 1-1 with either team.

[wildbill2u]

Rasho has his secure place on the team as the starting center when he comes back because of his defense and knowledge of the system. But NASR will get a lot of minutes because Rasho won't be in game shape and Nasr is playing pretty well.

Thank God we have an adequate backup. The trade was a GOOD MOVE by the FO, taking care of a problem that hadn't appeared yet (injury to big men).

[SequSpur]

Will Perdue is a hall of famer compared to Rasho.

[Taco]

Rasho's still the man!!!!

[SLOVENIAN 8]

Will Perdue is a hall of famer compared to Rasho.


My grandma is a hall of famer compared to SequSpur! :lol

[Solid D]

I'm a Rasho supporter. Get healthy Rasho, the Spurs need you.

[bigzak25]

i support rasho and naz and mass cuz that's all we got.

rasho won't dunk. mass can't block any shots. nazr will be left open in the playoffs and will either have to hit an open jumper or drive to the cup....at least 31 could take it to the hole...but i won't start that again...


i'll continue to pray every offseason that a GM has a lapse in judgement and offers us an upgrade....and if not, that Scola is everything malik was and more.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

It's funny that you use the word defender in the title of this thread, because that's what Rasho is better at than Nazr at this point, defending. Nazr is often slow to rotate on help defense, and is often out of position. (Outlaws jam in the Portland game is a good example; the perimeter guys directed him to the baseline where are bigs are supposed to be. Nazr was caught up near the foul line, and couldn't get there in time to defend). I'm confident that Nazr will improve as he learns the system more, but Rasho is still a solid interior defender and a Spur, so please put a sock in it.

And lastly BigZak25, I have to tell you that its not your words that hypnotize me. Yowza.

[bigzak25]

thumbs up bro, you haven't heard timvp and me tear up hypnotize on the mike tho

[desflood]

Rasho needs a serious confidence booster. It's hard to accomplish the things you want to when you don't believe you can.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I think they're both important elements to the team.


Nazr is showing that he's got hustle and heart that few people thought he had.

Rasho is an important reminder of why so few white guys make it through to the NBA.

[IceColdBrewski]

Seriously. In what defensive category is Rasho so far ahead of Nazr? Rebounds? Nope. Steals maybe? Nope.

I think Rasho averages about a 1/2 block per game more than Nazr. Big whoop.

[Slo spurs fan]

Rasho bothers much more opponents shots than Nazr and that is not in statistics.

[MannyIsGod]

Seriously. In what defensive category is Rasho so far ahead of Nazr? Rebounds? Nope. Steals maybe? Nope.

I think Rasho averages about a 1/2 block per game more than Nazr. Big whoop.
He leads in the catagory of playing better defense. You don't find that no a stat sheet.

[IceColdBrewski]

If that were the case, the stats would show it.

[MannyIsGod]

Really? What stats who that Bowen is the defender he is?

[IceColdBrewski]

Really? What stats who that Bowen is the defender he is?


C'mon now. I can't believe you're comparing Bowen to Rasho. Bowen plays a smothering defense that is clearly noticeable. The only noticeable difference between Nazr and Rasho is that Nazr plays with a lot more heart.

[Solid D]

Mr. Brewski,
Rasho plays much better positional defense and is quicker to rotate over on switches/help. He's had 2 years in the system and Nazr isn't close to Rasho in understanding, experience, nor reaction time - yet.

Rasho is a better passer in the high post and so far, a better shooter out on the floor. He is much smoother in the two-man game on screen/rolls and his screens are technically better than Nazr's.

Nazr dunks and is more aggressive on the offensive glass and has a knack for offensive rebounding. Nazr is more physical. Nazr is Rasho's backup until he starts catching balls on the first attempt and his familiarity and reaction time improves. On defense, Nazr is "Captain Late, Jr." but that's meant in the help-D sense and not in the 4th quarter heroics sense.

[smeagol]

Mr. Brewski,
Rasho plays much better positional defense and is quicker to rotate over on switches/help. He's had 2 years in the system and Nazr isn't close to Rasho in understanding, experience, nor reaction time - yet.

Rasho is a better passer in the high post and so far, a better shooter out on the floor. He is much smoother in the two-man game on screen/rolls and his screens are technically better than Nazr's.

Nazr dunks and is more aggressive on the offensive glass and has a knack for offensive rebounding. Nazr is more physical. Nazr is Rasho's backup until he starts catching balls on the first attempt and his familiarity and reaction time improves. On defense, Nazr is "Captain Late, Jr." but that's meant in the help-D sense and not in the 4th quarter heroics sense.
^^^^What he said.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Mr. Brewski,
Rasho plays much better positional defense and is quicker to rotate over on switches/help. He's had 2 years in the system and Nazr isn't close to Rasho in understanding, experience, nor reaction time - yet.

Rasho is a better passer in the high post and so far, a better shooter out on the floor. He is much smoother in the two-man game on screen/rolls and his screens are technically better than Nazr's.

Nazr dunks and is more aggressive on the offensive glass and has a knack for offensive rebounding. Nazr is more physical. Nazr is Rasho's backup until he starts catching balls on the first attempt and his familiarity and reaction time improves. On defense, Nazr is "Captain Late, Jr." but that's meant in the help-D sense and not in the 4th quarter heroics sense.

End of thread.

[cherylsteele]

Seriously. In what defensive category is Rasho so far ahead of Nazr? Rebounds? Nope. Steals maybe? Nope.

I think Rasho averages about a 1/2 block per game more than Nazr. Big whoop.


Like I have ben saying all along...you cannot judge a player by stats alone.

Rasho is better on "D' the Nazr...it is not rebounds, blocks, or steals....it is postioning. Rasho is better FUNDAMENTALLY....Nazr tends to overplay on defense and too often gets burned.

Nazr relies too often on athletecism only....that type of play can only get you so far. His athletecism is great...but he needs to learn how to reign it in and use it wisely.....in fact, Marks appears to be a bit more fundamentally sound at this point.

[IceColdBrewski]

Like I have ben saying all along...you cannot judge a player by stats alone.

Rasho is better on "D' the Nazr...it is not rebounds, blocks, or steals....it is postioning. Rasho is better FUNDAMENTALLY....Nazr tends to overplay on defense and too often gets burned.

So what you're saying is that Rasho is better at getting in the way. Couldn't agree more.


Nazr relies too often on athletecism only....that type of play can only get you so far. His athletecism is great...but he needs to learn how to reign it in and use it wisely.....in fact, Marks appears to be a bit more fundamentally sound at this point.

Fundamentals? I could give a damn about fundamentals. What I want is a big man who will get in there, fight for the rebound and jam that fucker back in. Someone who will get nasty and do the dirty work down low. Not someone who pussyfoots around the rim like he's playing in a charity fucntion.

[T Park]

Notice Brewski ignores Solid D's post.


but oncea gain, he was always known for agenda based posts.

[T Park]

Fundamentals? I could give a damn about fundamentals


Thats fantastic.

That attitude is the reason the NBA is so fucked up.


Its also the attitude that got Bob Hill fired.

That and "Fuck Defense" like you believe.

[ChumpDumper]

When your star is "The Big Fundamental," what exactly are you supposed to give a damn about?

[T Park]

What stats who that Bowen is the defender he is?

still waiting for Brewski's intelligent answer to this.

[stéphane]

direct opponent stat line shows it for bowen... the problem is defending in the paint is harder even to demonstrate...

[IceColdBrewski]

still waiting for Brewski's intelligent answer to this.

Find me a website that shows stats for Points allowed per opponent for each individual player and I'll be glad to answer. But since that stat doesn't seem to be available, I guess you'll just have to keep on waiting.

[T Park]

Then why did you discount it so fuckin quick if even YOU dont know it.

Go away already.

[cherylsteele]

So what you're saying is that Rasho is better at getting in the way. Couldn't agree more.



Fundamentals? I could give a damn about fundamentals. What I want is a big man who will get in there, fight for the rebound and jam that fucker back in. Someone who will get nasty and do the dirty work down low. Not someone who pussyfoots around the rim like he's playing in a charity fucntion.

Not caring about fundamentals is a terrible way to play ther game. So you want someone to go in with reckless abandon and probably foul out before the statistician can put his name on the scorecard?

I want someone to assert themselves too....but there is a wrong way and a right right way of doing that....Actually it could be said that Timmy could be more assertive, but that is fundamentally not sound the way you want it.....I have a strong feeling that if Timmy were to play with that reckless abandon, like you imply Rasho should, we would be all over Timmy.

BTW...we do have those enforcers....TMass, GRob, Marks (has shown some ability).

I agree that Rasho needs to be more assertive....T Park will tell you that I think Rasho needs to step up...Rasho was actually playing better before he went down......But he is definitely not in the way.



Maybe if you put down those brewskis you could see a little more clearly.

[IceColdBrewski]

Maybe if you put down those brewskis you could see a little more clearly.

I'd rather go blind.

[cherylsteele]

direct opponent stat line shows it for bowen... the problem is defending in the paint is harder even to demonstrate...

Actually...it is not that hard.....it is points in the paint and Opp FG%......which have been a problem since Rasho went down....they were a problem when Timmy went down...but got even worse when Rasho got hurt.

My biggest problem is Nazr's in the paint "D"....leaves alot to be desired......shows flashes but way too often guards evne get by him with regularity.

[cherylsteele]

I'd rather go blind.

Too late.

[ChumpDumper]

A stat you can find on 82games.com is Net Effective FG% allowed. The Spurs' Effective Opponent FG% is 2.9% lower when Rasho is on the floor compared to when he's on the bench. Out of the Spurs who have played all season, only Duncan rates higher. When Nazr is on the floor, the Effective Opponent FG% goes up 2.2%.

The mere fact Adonal Foyle made seven shots in one game against Nazr is also a telling stat.

[IceColdBrewski]

A stat you can find on 82games.com is Net Effective FG% allowed. The Spurs' Effective Opponent FG% is 2.9% lower when Rasho is on the floor compared to when he's on the bench. Out of the Spurs who have played all season, only Duncan rates higher. When Nazr is on the floor, the Effective Opponent FG% goes up 2.2%.

The mere fact Adonal Foyle made seven shots in one game against Nazr is also a telling stat.

OK. Fair enough. We'll use that stat for now. Considering that Rasho is so much better at "knowing the system", that number should be cosiderably higher. And I'll gladly give up that 2.2% ( :rolleyes ) for a guy that scores more points, gets more rebounds, shows more hustle, and has more heart when he's out there on the floor.

[ChumpDumper]

that number should be cosiderably higher.How high? Duncan's net difference is only 0.5% better. What should his number be and who should replace him?
And I'll gladly give up that 2.2%And you'd let Adonal make the most shots of the season off you.

Where is your stat for heart?

[cherylsteele]

How high? Duncan's net difference is only 0.5% better. What should his number be and who should replace him?And you'd let Adonal make the most shots of the season off you.

Where is your stat for heart?

Heart only gets you so far....if you know when and how to use to your advantage then a player can go to the next level.....you can let emotions take you out of the game which happens so many times with that type of play.

So you are willing to give up that 2.2% difference for offense? The reason the Spurs win so many games is "D".....what happens if his hustle and offense don't get it done....like last night in Utah....in the playoffs and we lose because he can't relieve Rasho and we blow leads and lose? He still has heart though......I want to win...if Nazr is the better option, then fine....but he isn't. His post game is raw....unrefined.....he seems to get his shot blocked alot...even though he is trying to dunk it......dink it all the time may not always be the best option.....just ask Tim Duncan.

[IceColdBrewski]

How high? Duncan's net difference is only 0.5% better. What should his number be and who should replace him?And you'd let Adonal make the most shots of the season off you.

Where is your stat for heart?

There is no stat for heart. Just what I see with my own eyes. Nazr shows hustle. Rasho usually stands there like a tree most of the time. Remind me again how much money he's stealing from us.

[ChumpDumper]

Just what I see with my own eyes.So you saw the season-high makes by Adonal?

[IceColdBrewski]

Heart only gets you so far....if you know when and how to use to your advantage then a player can go to the next level.....you can let emotions take you out of the game which happens so many times with that type of play.

So you are willing to give up that 2.2% difference for offense? The reason the Spurs win so many games is "D".....what happens if his hustle and offense don't get it done....like last night in Utah....in the playoffs and we lose because he can't relieve Rasho and we blow leads and lose? He still has heart though......I want to win...if Nazr is the better option, then fine....but he isn't. His post game is raw....unrefined.....he seems to get his shot blocked alot...even though he is trying to dunk it......dink it all the time may not always be the best option.....just ask Tim Duncan.

Like I've said before. Rasho isn't that much better on defense than Nazr. I've already shown the stats to prove it. The only claim to fame Rasho has is that he knows the system better which gives him a slight edge on defense. But when you factor in points and rebounds, I don't know how you can say Rasho is better.

[ChumpDumper]

Rasho isn't that much better on defense than Nazr. I've already shown the stats to prove it.Where?

[IceColdBrewski]

Where?


I posted them (copy and paste) but they came out all fucked up and had to edit. Go see for yourself at CBSSPORTSLINE.COM. Then tell me which defensive category that Rasho is so much better than Nazr. I'll be waiting.

[ChumpDumper]

tell me which defensive category that Rasho is so much better than Nazr.I just did. You just completely fail to recognize the significance of that stat. You should check the effect other players have on effective opponent FG. You'l have a tough time finding 10 guys who do the same as Rasho who have played as much.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

Brewski.

You've said that Rasho's defensive importance is statistically unprovable, and I have to point out too that there are no stats for playing fucked up out of position late to help defense like Nazr's, and while its also as pointless as comparing a Yugo and a K Car, I'm going to engage your argument on your ground.

Offense. Yes, Rasho is the better offensive player too.

Have some nice spicy stats with your ice cold brewsky.

Since its unfair to Nazr to use his numbers since he's been a Spur to compare, I've used their career averages.

Nazr http://www.basketball-reference.com.../mohamna01.html

For his career (and playing in the East), Nazr has averaged 6.7 pts on 46% shooting, has shot 63% from the line (crappy), and has racked up 5.3 rebounds per game, 2 on the offensive glass. He's averaged .5 assists per game and .6 blocks per game (oops thats defensive). He's also thrown down some spectacular dunks, many of which have bounced spectacularly off of the rim.

Rasho http://www.basketball-reference.com.../nestera01.html

For his career (played entirely in the West), Rasho averages 7.7 pts on 49% shooting, has shot 55% from the line (really crappy), and gathered 5.9 rebounds per game, 2.1 of which are offensive. Rasho averages 1.1 assists and 1.4 blocks per game. He also throws a wicked toddler-like cringe when a ref blows a whistle. And who can forget the recent pictures of Sad Rash when faced with the reposession of Sean Mark's little boy.

In conclusion, Rasho is not only the better defensive player, but is statistically a better offensive player than Nazr, albeit marginally. Rasho also makes his teamates better as Whottt showed recently (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13313)
When you take that and combine it with Nazr's 1. bad hands, 2. propensity to foul, because 3. he's out of position on D, Rasho is your starter, until Nazr improves.

Don't get me wrong though. I like Nazr, and I really think he'll be a great asset to the team, especially once he's gotten the hang of the defense and learns to catch a basketball.

In the meantime, Rasho plays a central role in anchoring our defense, and when called upon has peformed well offensively (He kept us in the game in the first half against the Rockets on Easter. I was there.). He should continue to start.

I'll grant you one thing though ICB. Nazr is more fun to watch. Fortunately, both players are on our roster, and I like our chances in the playoffs.

I'll let everyone else have the last words as I have grown weary of this banter (touch my monkey).

[IceColdBrewski]

Brewski.

You've said that Rasho's defensive importance is statistically unprovable, and I have to point out too that there are no stats for playing fucked up out of position late to help defense like Nazr's, and while its also as pointless as comparing a Yugo and a K Car, I'm going to engage your argument on your ground.

Offense. Yes, Rasho is the better offensive player too.

Have some nice spicy stats with your ice cold brewsky.

Since its unfair to Nazr to use his numbers since he's been a Spur to compare, I've used their career averages.

Nazr http://www.basketball-reference.com.../mohamna01.html

For his career (and playing in the East), Nazr has averaged 6.7 pts on 46% shooting, has shot 63% from the line (crappy), and has racked up 5.3 rebounds per game, 2 on the offensive glass. He's averaged .5 assists per game and .6 blocks per game (oops thats defensive). He's also thrown down some spectacular dunks, many of which have bounced spectacularly off of the rim.

Rasho http://www.basketball-reference.com.../nestera01.html

For his career (played entirely in the West), Rasho averages 7.7 pts on 49% shooting, has shot 55% from the line (really crappy), and gathered 5.9 rebounds per game, 2.1 of which are offensive. Rasho averages 1.1 assists and 1.4 blocks per game. He also throws a wicked toddler-like cringe when a ref blows a whistle. And who can forget the recent pictures of Sad Rash when faced with the reposession of Sean Mark's little boy.

In conclusion, Rasho is not only the better defensive player, but is statistically a better offensive player than Nazr, albeit marginally. Rasho also makes his teamates better as Whottt showed recently (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13313)
When you take that and combine it with Nazr's 1. bad hands, 2. propensity to foul, because 3. he's out of position on D, Rasho is your starter, until Nazr improves.

Don't get me wrong though. I like Nazr, and I really think he'll be a great asset to the team, especially once he's gotten the hang out of the defense and learns to catch a basketball.

In the meantime, Rasho plays a central role in anchoring our defense, and when called upon has peformed well offensively (He kept us in the game in the first half against the Rockets on Easter. I was there.). He should continue to start.

I'll grant you one thing though ICB. Nazr is more fun to watch. Fortunately, both players are on our roster, and I like our chances in the playoffs.

I'll let everyone else have the last words as I have grown weary of this banter (touch my monkey).\

I stopped reading when you said that Rasho was better offensively.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

\

I stopped reading when you said that Rasho was better offensively.

But ICB, I thought you loved stats! :lol