Government admits filming torture of Gitmo inmate, alleged 9/11 plotter [Archive]

Winehole23

10-06-2009, 12:50 PM

Government admits filming torture of Gitmo inmate, alleged 9/11 plotter (http://rawstory.com/2009/10/government-admits-recording-torture-of-alleged-911-plotter/)

By Stephen C. Webster (http://rawstory.com/2009/author/stephencwebster/)
Monday, October 5th, 2009 -- 3:38 pm

The United States government admitted on Monday that the torture of a Saudi man alleged to be part of the 9/11 plot was recorded on video, according to court documents procured by the Center for Constitutional Rights.

The tapes, allegedly showing the torture of Mohammed al Qahtani, 31, have long been kept under wraps, but a discovery motion for video of his interrogations led the court to acknowledge their existence and order their release.

"The videotapes the government is required to produce will reveal the time period at the end of three months of intensive solitary confinement and isolation that immediately preceded the implementation of the 'First Special Interrogation Plan,' a regime of systematic torture techniques approved by former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld for use against Mr. al Qahtani," claimed a CCR media advisory.

Lawyers with the Center for Constitutional Rights have represented Qahtani since 2005. The accused 9/11 plotter has been a Guantanamo inmate since 2002.

According to Susan Crawford, convening authority at the Office of Military Commissions, "We tortured Qahtani."

Crawford's statements to The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html) in Jan. 2009 made her the first senior Bush administration official to publicly state that a detainee was tortured.

"His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution said Crawford.

She added that US military interrogators repeatedly subjected Qahtani to sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

"The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent," she said.
"This was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture.

"Military prosecutors said in November that they would seek to refile charges against Qahtani [...] based on subsequent interrogations that did not employ harsh techniques," noted The Washington Post. "But Crawford, who dismissed war crimes charges against him in May 2008, said in the interview that she would not allow the prosecution to go forward.

"After the intense scrutiny of the government’s torture and interrogation of Mr. al Qahtani, it is shocking that the government has hidden the existence of these tapes from the public for so many years," said CCR Attorney Gitanjali S. Gutierrez. "The government’s interrogation of him has been the topic of multiple military, Justice Department and congressional investigations. These tapes should have been acknowledged long ago."

"Mr. al Qahtani’s torture is already well-established, with a clear paper trail that leads all the way up the chain of command to the desk of Donald Rumsfeld," said CCR Executive Director Vincent Warren. "The revelation of these tapes indicates the government carefully documented horrific evidence of torture and abuse at Guantánamo. The only question that remains is whether the people ultimately responsible for it will be held accountable for breaking the law and breaking faith with our system of justice."

The judge's order acknowledging the existence of the tapes and ordering their release may be read here (http://ccrjustice.org/files/MAQ%20Order%20to%20Disclose%20Videotapes.pdf) (PDF link).

hope4dopes

10-06-2009, 01:04 PM

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH so what.

CosmicCowboy

10-06-2009, 01:08 PM

naked in the tropics. big fucking deal.

hope4dopes

10-06-2009, 01:10 PM

Now he's got an inkling of what it is like being a woman in Saudia Arabia.spanky spanky

Winehole23

10-06-2009, 01:11 PM

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH so what.Well, you can't say there wasn't any torture now.

Winehole23

10-06-2009, 01:17 PM

Too bad our interrogation rendered Al Qatani unprosecutable. How incompetent.

hope4dopes

10-06-2009, 01:25 PM

yeah but look how much fun it was..and who knows what he talked about while he was shivering....well while he was slightly coolish...well why he was sweating naked in the tropics.

nkdlunch

10-06-2009, 01:28 PM

"torture was the right decision then. It is the right decision now. And it's the right decision ever!"

http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/29/bush_stupid.jpg

Winehole23

10-06-2009, 01:29 PM

yeah but look how much fun it was..and who knows what he talked about while he was shivering....well while he was slightly coolish...well why he was sweating naked in the tropics.Creepy.

Whenever the tape is released, micca, feel free to fap off to it.

Wild Cobra

10-06-2009, 03:40 PM

Well, you can't say there wasn't any torture now.
Don't know unless we see the tape.

DarrinS

10-06-2009, 03:42 PM

How long before Obama releases these tapes to Al Jazeera?

Winehole23

10-06-2009, 03:42 PM

According to Susan Crawford, convening authority at the Office of Military Commissions, "We tortured Qahtani."

"His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution said Crawford

CosmicCowboy

10-06-2009, 04:18 PM

Big fucking deal. After they got all the information they wanted they should have cut his head off and sent it home in a burlap bag.

Winehole23

10-06-2009, 05:25 PM

If we'd minded our p's and q's, Al Qatani could be tried in court and sentenced to death.

Because we tortured him, this will probably never happen.

hope4dopes

10-06-2009, 05:25 PM

Big fucking deal. After they got all the information they wanted they should have cut his head off and sent it home in a burlap bag. yeah that'd work.

LnGrrrR

10-06-2009, 07:51 PM

LnGrrrR

10-06-2009, 07:53 PM

I wonder how long before these tapes suddenly go missing?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/07/cia-destroyed-tapes-as-ju_n_85473.html

Wild Cobra

10-06-2009, 09:51 PM

I love the morals of the conservatives. And of course, WC with his usual BS "We can't possibly know if it was really torture, even though the head of the Commissions Authority stated it was such".

Can you say with certainty that she isn't using her position to reinforce opinion rather than fact?

This has become such a heated topic relying on opinion rather than facts. Like Global Warming. I'm sorry if I'm skeptical until I see more.

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 01:16 AM

Can you say with certainty that she isn't using her position to reinforce opinion rather than fact?Ms. Crawford was the convening authority for the military commissions. It was her job to refer detainees for prosecution. One presumes the pressure to refer a 9/11 plotter to the commission must have been particularly intense, and it is reasonable to infer that she must have wanted badly to do so on her own account. Al Qatani almost surely is one of the worst of the worst.

That she could not bring herself to do it underscores how just badly the Al Qatani case was compromised by the abusive conditions of his confinement and interrogation.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 08:15 AM

Can you say with certainty that she isn't using her position to reinforce opinion rather than fact?

This has become such a heated topic relying on opinion rather than facts. Like Global Warming. I'm sorry if I'm skeptical until I see more.

Tell me WC, why do you suppose that she would do something like that?

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 09:47 AM

I love the morals of the conservatives. And of course, WC with his usual BS "We can't possibly know if it was really torture, even though the head of the Commissions Authority stated it was such".

And yet, these people will wrap themselves in the flag, speaking about how awfully IMMORAL and UNFAIR it is that rich people pay a greater percentage of taxes.

It honestly boggles my fucking mind. Yeah, well I find it mind boggeling apoligists like you can get outraged about some insane fuck following a barbaric code that was discredited half a mellinium ago, while you remain at best silent, at worst supportive of a party that promotes child sex slavery.While you wrap yourself in the rainbow flag.

clambake

10-07-2009, 09:50 AM

so.....the war is about child sex slavery now?

is that right, micca?

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 09:52 AM

Yeah, well I find it mind boggeling apoligists like you can get outraged about some insane fuck following a barbaric code that was discredited half a mellinium ago, while you remain at best silent, at worst supportive of a party that promotes child sex slavery.While you wrap yourself in the rainbow flag.

What the fuck are you talking about? The Geneva Convention is a barbaric code? A party that promotes child sex slavery?

I mean, really, you've gotta be just trolling.

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 10:19 AM

I mean, really, you've gotta be just trolling. Another micca meltdown. Can't discuss a thing with anyone. He just melts down.

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 10:21 AM

What the fuck are you talking about? The Geneva Convention is a barbaric code? A party that promotes child sex slavery?

I mean, really, you've gotta be just trolling. Denial

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 10:22 AM

Another micca meltdown. Can't discuss a thing with anyone. He just melts down. You forgot nazis and racist Nancy

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 10:23 AM

This had nothing to do with Acorn, ese.

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 10:24 AM

You forgot nazis and racist NancyThe meltdown continues apace.

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 10:24 AM

What does any of this have to do with a rainbow flag, micca?

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 10:42 AM

The meltdown continues apace. the denial continues

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 10:45 AM

The denial of what?

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 10:47 AM

The denial of what?:sleep

Winehole23

10-07-2009, 10:54 AM

If you won't tell us what you mean, we can't tell what you mean.

You don't really do conversation do you, micca? It's always a monologue with you.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 10:57 AM

You forgot nazis and racist Nancy

Perhaps, just perhaps, you could try to put together coherent thoughts without spewing forth your usual volcanic ad hominems?

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 11:01 AM

If you won't tell us what you mean, we can't tell what you mean.

You don't really do conversation do you, micca? It's always a monologue with you.

Someone needs to invent a micca mad-lib.

You don't ______(verb) because you _____ (insult) ______ (non-sequitur) _______ (insult)... etc etc

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 11:47 AM

:lol You and whinehole have finally reverted to the level of clambake and shasta.doesn't take you long.,:rollin

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 11:50 AM

:lol You and whinehole have finally reverted to the level of clambake and shasta.doesn't take you long.,:rollin

Where does that place you? A few levels below them, I'm guessing?

Rarely have I reverted to insult-flinging to make my point on here, and the same goes for WH23. Tell me, does the same hold true of you?

clambake

10-07-2009, 11:51 AM

Now he's got an inkling of what it is like being a woman in Saudia Arabia.spanky spanky

You forgot nazis and racist Nancy

:lol You and whinehole have finally reverted to the level of clambake and shasta.doesn't take you long.,:rollin

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 11:51 AM

Where does that place you? A few levels below them, I'm guessing?

Rarely have I reverted to insult-flinging to make my point on here, and the same goes for WH23. Tell me, does the same hold true of you?
YOU LIE:lmao

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 12:21 PM

YOU LIE:lmao

Feel free to find the examples.

CosmicCowboy

10-07-2009, 01:13 PM

What the fuck are you talking about? The Geneva Convention is a barbaric code? A party that promotes child sex slavery?

I mean, really, you've gotta be just trolling.

What does the Geneva Convention have to do with Al Qaeda and the Taliban? Those rules don't apply.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 01:36 PM

Is it your idea that terrorist suspects shouldn't be treated with some measure of humanity/dignity?

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 01:45 PM

Oh, also, even unlawful combatants are covered under the 4th Geneva Convention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

The Geneva Conventions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions) apply in wars between two or more states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state). Article 5 of the GCIII (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention#Article_5) states that the status of a detainee may be determined by a "competent tribunal." Until such time, he is to be treated as a prisoner of war.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant#cite_note-1) After a "competent tribunal" has determined his status, the "Detaining Power" may choose to accord the detained unlawful combatant the rights and privileges of a POW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POW), as described in the Third Geneva Convention, but is not required to do so. An unlawful combatant who is not a national of a neutral State, and who is not a national of a co-belligerent State, retains rights and privileges under the Fourth Geneva Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention) so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial."[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant#cite_note-icrc_dorman-2)

Here it states the same, regarding spies and saboteurs (otherwise known as unlawful combatants)

Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 02:19 PM

That she could not bring herself to do it underscores how just badly the Al Qatani case was compromised by the abusive conditions of his confinement and interrogation.
But is she an expert to say what is and isn't torture?

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 02:24 PM

Tell me WC, why do you suppose that she would do something like that?
I haven't take enough time on this. It's another story that I, and the rest of you, can only offer improperly informed opinion.

I don't think she's qualified to define torture, and there is already a strong bias both ways. It is possible that some overstepped legal bounds, but only one specific source for one case.

I will not believe someone who could be a liberal pundit, until I see the video.

Anyone else unbiased enough to want to see the video before forming an opinion one way or the other? Please don't tell me you're going to trust hearsay.

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 02:28 PM

Is it your idea that terrorist suspects shouldn't be treated with some measure of humanity/dignity?
Combatants should be treated in a manner they understand. That said, harsh conditions are fitting for a group that understand that as a way of life. We cannot treat people who live under a different culture to cooperate if we treat them as if they were civilized. They are animals and need not be treated any better. However, I'm not one to beat an animal, neither are most people.

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 02:30 PM

LnGrrrR...

Which member state are the terrorists fighting for as recognized soldiers?

The Geneva Convention does not apply.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 02:34 PM

But is she an expert to say what is and isn't torture?

I'm assuming she knows the legal definition, yes.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 02:36 PM

LnGrrrR...

Which member state are the terrorists fighting for as recognized soldiers?

The Geneva Convention does not apply.

Saboteurs and spies are considered unlawful combatants, which is the same category terrorists are assumed under.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 02:38 PM

I don't think she's qualified to define torture,

Torture is legally defined. She just had to see if said activity fit the legal definition.

Anyone else unbiased enough to want to see the video before forming an opinion one way or the other? Please don't tell me you're going to trust hearsay.

Only a limited amount of people will probably have access to the video.

As far as trusting 'hearsay', it's only hearsay when it's coming from an unrecognized source. They don't consider it 'hearsay' when a doctor testifies about a medical procedure in a court of law, do they?

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 02:46 PM

Combatants should be treated in a manner they understand. That said, harsh conditions are fitting for a group that understand that as a way of life. We cannot treat people who live under a different culture to cooperate if we treat them as if they were civilized. They are animals and need not be treated any better. However, I'm not one to beat an animal, neither are most people.

Interesting thought process. Wouldn't you think that, by treating them civilly, we could convince them of the morality of our peoples?

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 02:51 PM

Interesting thought process. Wouldn't you think that, by treating them civilly, we could convince them of the morality of our peoples? Are you really that stupid? Our civility does not in the least matter to these medival numbskulls.It's like listening to big bird and elmo discuss the war on terror ooooops the war on man made catastrophe.

CosmicCowboy

10-07-2009, 02:57 PM

They should just load all those guantanamo assholes on a Haitian fishing boat and tell them them they are free to go and sail back to where they came from.

http://www.amren.com/ar/2007/03/12a-Haitians.jpg

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 03:00 PM

Are you really that stupid? Our civility does not in the least matter to these medival numbskulls.It's like listening to big bird and elmo discuss the war on terror ooooops the war on man made catastrophe.

So, I'm assuming you feel these Afghani people are akin to... what, neanderthals?

CosmicCowboy

10-07-2009, 03:11 PM

So, I'm assuming you feel these Afghani people are akin to... what, neanderthals?

Wow...you sure all warm and fuzzy about these guys that consider you to be an infidel and want you dead.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 03:14 PM

Wow...you sure all warm and fuzzy about these guys that consider you to be an infidel and want you dead.

Given that a great number of them have been released after having found not to be terrorists, and that many of the cases brought before the government have determined that our evidence for holding them is not suitable, I find it funny that you would say such.

Do you think the government and court system are all incorrect, and each of the people we are holding certainly is a terrorist?

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 03:24 PM

Given that a great number of them have been released after having found not to be terrorists, and that many of the cases brought before the government have determined that our evidence for holding them is not suitable, I find it funny that you would say such.

Do you think the government and court system are all incorrect, and each of the people we are holding certainly is a terrorist? No I think they were a traveling troupe of transvestites teaching the tango to the taliban.and there bus broke down in the middle of a war zone.Your to silly to take seriously anymore.

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 03:30 PM

I'm assuming she knows the legal definition, yes.
But would you bet your life savings that she is correct rather than being a pundit?

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 03:31 PM

Micca, so why do you think the government and courts let them go?

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 03:31 PM

But would you bet your life savings that she is correct rather than being a pundit?

Eh, not my life savings. But I wouldn't bet my life savings on anything. I'm not much of a gambling person.

I'd say the odds are in her favor, though. I might throw a 20 spot down. :lol

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Saboteurs and spies are considered unlawful combatants, which is the same category terrorists are assumed under.
You're right. I was in a hurry and dismissed it after the beginning.

Maybe you should have said they apply somewhat in the Fourth Geneva Convention rather than leading with a paragraph referring to member states. Maybe I should have read all of it.

Thing is, illegal combatants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant) can be treated differently than legal combatants.

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 03:38 PM

You're right. I was in a hurry and dismissed it after the beginning.

Maybe you should have said they apply in the Fourth Geneva Convention rather than leading with a paragraph referring to member states. Maybe I should have read all of it.

Thing is, illegal combatants can be treated differently than legal combatants.

Oh yes, I know they can be. However, humane treatment can be expected, and more to the point, the Geneva Conventions DO apply, contra to what CC was suggesting.

CosmicCowboy

10-07-2009, 03:39 PM

clambake

10-07-2009, 03:39 PM

Micca, so why do you think the government and courts let them go?

good luck.

Wild Cobra

10-07-2009, 03:40 PM

clambake

10-07-2009, 03:40 PM

imagine......afghan people finding themselves in a war zone.

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 03:43 PM

Micca, so why do you think the government and courts let them go? I don't know ask eric holder his firm represented alot of these scumbags.
Fist of these guys are not afghani the article mentions Saudis.This wasn't U.S. marshalls looking to bust some bad guys,and read them their mirandas this was grab some dirt bags bitch slap them around get as much information as you can see what shaking then get rid of them.We all know that, hopefully the real bad guys got feed to the sharks in Cuba.....twice.Now that whatever information is gleaned from them most people don't care what happens to them.....well except for you and eric holder's law firm who is recieving wheel barrels full of money probablly from saudi arabia...it's better if the lunatics are fighting the infedels and jews and not the royal family.
bringing this scum into an American court is a mockery of the concept of justice.

clambake

10-07-2009, 03:45 PM

I don't know ask eric holder his firm represented alot of these scumbags.
Fist of these guys are not afghani the article mentions Saudis.This wasn't U.S. marshalls looking to bust some bad guys,and read them their mirandas this was grab some dirt bags bitch slap them around get as much information as you can see what shaking then get rid of them.We all know that, hopefully the real bad guys got feed to the sharks in Cuba.....twice.Now that whatever information is gleaned from them most people don't care what happens to them.....well except for you and eric holder's law firm who is recieving wheel barrels full of money probablly from saudi arabia...it's better if the lunatics are fighting the infedels and jews and not the royal family.
bringing this scum into an American court is a mockery of the concept of justice.
:lol

LnGrrrR

10-07-2009, 03:47 PM

I say form a tribunal, find those guilty who are, and execute them.

I'm fine with them, assuming they get due process of law such as right to attorney, the right for that attorney to see the evidence against their client, and the right to not have hearsay evidence against them.

Assuming they get all those, and they are found guilty, then sure, string 'em up.

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 04:04 PM

I'm fine with them, assuming they get due process of law such as right to attorney, the right for that attorney to see the evidence against their client, and the right to not have hearsay evidence against them.

Assuming they get all those, and they are found guilty, then sure, string 'em up.
This is all a canard.The American left and it's most recent maifestation the Soros left cannot promote their agenda through the ballot box(at least not until they get more illegal aliens in ).
Since the people reject their agenda they have promoted thier agenda through the court system abortion,illegal immigration,the second admendment,affermative action ad nauseum, now some of these things may or may not be right ,but stealing the peoples right to self determination is treasonous. For every constitutional lawyer that agrees with you I can find one who doesn't.And deal with it your not a constitutional lawyer.
The point isn't your interested in justice, it is your intrested in throwing this into the court system which then becomes a gordian's knot of bullshit at which wahhbist, and radical funds can be thrown forever.
I mean Al Capone never spent a day in jail for murder nor did Bill Ayers though both had blood on thier hands.Courts don't always find justice.

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 04:09 PM

imagine......afghan people finding themselves in a war zone. Read a list of gitmo detanees there are not that many Afghans on it.....imagine that

clambake

10-07-2009, 04:16 PM

Read a list of gitmo detanees there are not that many Afghans on it.....imagine that

how many?

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 04:22 PM

how many?
why don't you even bother reading it, anyone can, or are you content to parrot nonsense that support your illusion of yourself as a sort of young Che.but a non smoker, and a little taller.

clambake

10-07-2009, 04:25 PM

so....you don't know.

hope4dopes

10-07-2009, 04:28 PM

so....you don't know.Yeah I read it the afgahns were starteling few most seem to be from Yemen, alot of Saudis alot of Pakis. go read it........Darrins right I think you and Chimp are the same person.

clambake

10-07-2009, 04:35 PM

Yeah I read it the afgahns were starteling few most seem to be from Yemen, alot of Saudis alot of Pakis. go read it........Darrins right I think you and Chimp are the same person.

you mean that there's other people there besides afghans?

LnGrrrR

10-08-2009, 07:28 AM

These people were captured in a friggen war zone by solidiers. Of course they weren't mirandized and treated from the start as if getting a conviction in an America court was the primary purpose of detention. Do we need to be sending attorneys out with the Marines to make sure the fucking Talibans civil rights aren't violated?

Uhm... incorrect. Not all of them were captured in a 'war zone'. In fact the whole war on terror pretty much negates the idea of a 'war zone'. Look up info on Jose Padilla and where he was 'captured'.

Do you think that America is too weak to provide a model system of justice, even to those who might be terrorists? Our system of justice is one of the things that makes America great. We should take pride in knowing that, when we find someone guilty, we've given them their fair chance to explain their actions. That's justice. Kangaroo courts aren't justice.

LnGrrrR

10-08-2009, 07:30 AM

The point isn't your interested in justice, it is your intrested in throwing this into the court system which then becomes a gordian's knot of bullshit at which wahhbist, and radical funds can be thrown forever.

Actually, I am interesting in justice. I thought that was one thing liberals and conservatives could agree on, at least. Seems I was wrong.

I mean Al Capone never spent a day in jail for murder nor did Bill Ayers though both had blood on thier hands.Courts don't always find justice.

You bring up a good point here. The government KNEW that Al Capone was committing murder, right? Why didn't they just arrest him? I mean, why let due process get in the way? PEOPLE WERE BEING MURDERED. Isn't it the government's job to keep people safe?

Winehole23

10-08-2009, 09:32 AM

I say form a tribunal, find those guilty who are, and execute them.We formed tribunals designed to convict everyone as guilty; they were incompetent in every sense of the word.

We already have a system that works: the criminal justice system. We also have very broad anti-terrorism laws that apply to anyone to gives material support to terrorists.

Given the fiasco of military commissions and the national disgrace of Gitmo, (besides black ops) criminal justice appears to be the way to go in the future.

hope4dopes

10-08-2009, 09:43 AM

We formed tribunals designed to convict everyone as guilty; they were incompetent in every sense of the word.

We already have a system that works: the criminal justice system. We also have very broad anti-terrorism laws that apply to anyone to gives material support to terrorists.

Given the fiasco of military commissions and the national disgrace of Gitmo, (besides black ops) criminal justice appears to be the way to go in the future. I have not seen any national outcry from the American people about gitmo. I've seen leftist ideolouges try and stage one but it doesn't have any legs.The thousand and thousands that marched on washington this summer, the millions that packed town halls, seem to have a very different idea of what consitutes a national disgrace.

clambake

10-08-2009, 09:44 AM

I have not seen any national outcry from the American people about gitmo. I've seen leftist ideolouges try and stage one but it doesn't have any legs.The thousand and thousands that marched on washington this summer, the millions that packed town halls, seem to have a very different idea of what consitutes a national disgrace.

:lol

Winehole23

10-09-2016, 10:03 AM

These people were captured in a friggen war zone by solidiers. Of course they weren't mirandized and treated from the start as if getting a conviction in an America court was the primary purpose of detention. Do we need to be sending attorneys out with the Marines to make sure the fucking Talibans civil rights aren't violated?Yep, we did.

They weren't the worst of the worst. Most of them weren't even bad guys.

We detained them without cause, held them without hearings before a neutral magistrate, and tortured them, and held them in prison for years.

Why did GWB release 75% of them without any charges if that were all bad guys?

Winehole23

10-09-2016, 10:04 AM

the commies at Military.com are undermining our government:

The "Dirty 30" probably weren't all Osama bin Laden bodyguards after all. The "Karachi 6" weren't a cell of bombers plotting attacks in Pakistan for al-Qaida. An Afghan man captured 14 years ago as a suspected chemical weapons maker was confused for somebody else.

An ongoing review shows the U.S. intelligence community has been debunking long-held myths about some of the "worst of the worst" at Guantanamo, some of them still held today. The retreat emerges in a series of unclassified prisoner profiles released by the Pentagon in recent years, snapshots of much larger dossiers the public cannot see, prepared for the Periodic Review Board examining the Pentagon's "forever prisoner" population.

Afghan Abdul Zahir is a case in point: U.S. Rangers (http://www.military.com/army-rangers/join.html) captured him and some "suspicious items" in a July 11, 2002, raid on his home on suspicion of "involvement with chemical/biological weapons activity." During George W. Bush's presidency he was briefly charged with war crimes, accused of being an al-Qaida conspirator named Abdul Bari, a nickname used by Zahir as well. The parole board cleared him for release on July 11, 2016 -- no trial necessary -- after an intelligence assessment concluded he "was probably misidentified as the individual who had ties to al-Qaida weapons facilitation."

"They had the wrong guy the whole time," said Air Force (http://www.military.com/air-force) Lt. Col. Sterling Thomas, his defense attorney since 2010. "Abdul Zahir shared a name with a terrorist that they thought they were looking for. He unfortunately was further condemned by the fact that United States forces couldn't distinguish between bomb-making materials and the salt, sugar and petroleum jelly he had nearby when he was wrongly arrested."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/10/07/new-guantanamo-intelligence-upends-old-worst-worst-myths.html

Winehole23

10-09-2016, 10:05 AM

most of them were bounty babies:

The documents also offer a window into the wobbly world of early war-on-terror intelligence gathering and analysis where a suspicion built on circumstances of capture gelled into allegations of membership in a terror cell that on reflection more than a decade later probably didn't exist. In a series of interviews, intelligence sources -- including people who served at Guantanamo at the time -- blamed bad intelligence on a combination of urgency to produce, ignorance about al-Qaida and Afghanistan at the prison's inception and inexperience in the art of investigation and analysis.

"It was clear early on that the intelligence was grossly wrong," said Mark Fallon, a retired 30-year federal officer who between 2002 and 2004 was Special Agent in Charge of the Department of Defense's Criminal Investigation Task Force. Most "weren't battlefield captives," he said, calling many "bounty babies" -- men captured by Afghan warlords or Pakistani security forces and sent to Guantanamo "on the sketchiest bit of intelligence with nothing to corroborate."

Winehole23

10-09-2016, 10:07 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/world/cia-torture-guantanamo-bay.html

Winehole23

10-09-2016, 10:13 AM

At least 119 men moved through the C.I.A. jails, where the interrogations were designed to disrupt the senses and increase helplessness — factors that researchers decades earlier had said could make people more susceptible to psychological harm. Forced nudity, sensory deprivation and endless light or dark were considered routine.

Many of those men were later released without charges, unsure of why they were held. About one in four prisoners should never have been captured, or turned out to have been misidentified by the C.I.A.

Winehole23

10-22-2016, 08:29 AM

will another 9/11 plotter go free because we tortured him?

(warning: gruesome medical details)

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/guantanamo/article107451907.html

Winehole23

06-22-2019, 07:47 PM

Video of the US att'y arguing children don't need soap, toothbrushes or a blanket has deservedly gone viral, but Popehat makes a great point. The USA has a long history of defending abusive detention.

1142481535066497024

boutons_deux

06-22-2019, 08:19 PM

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274253&p=9849482&viewfull=1#post9849482

Winehole23

02-22-2020, 03:01 PM

DMC

02-22-2020, 03:52 PM

Everything that's happened since the dawn of time has made things that come afterward possible.

Why is it notable in this one instance?

Winehole23

02-22-2020, 03:56 PM

Everything that's happened since the dawn of time has made things that come afterward possible.

Why is it notable in this one instance?
Proximate in time and place. Obama is Trump's immediate predecessor.

God, you're trite.

boutons_deux

02-22-2020, 04:16 PM

It will seem like a non-sequitur to some, but Obama's failure to hold anyone to account for torture, warrantless domestic surveillance of people not suspected of anything, and the rampant financial fraud that caused the crash of 2008 -- normalized it all and in part made Trump's ascendancy possible.

Obama expanded the powers of the executive, increased official secrecy, assailed the privacy of citizens, normalized the assassination of citizens by the government and prosecuted whistleblowers. His chief policy achievement was a deal done behind closed doors with insurance and pharma companies that only slowed, but did not reverse health care costs.

Obama delegitimized government and Democratic Party rule, to the detriment of us all. Trump owes a big debt to Obama for the power he wields now.

Obama greased the skids for an authoritarian grifter like Trump.

Obama's plate was full of shit with Repug Congress obstructing everything.

Obama could have spent all of his 8 years trying clean the plate full of Repug shit that the Repugs handed him, and probably failed, while not having any political capital do the good stuff he did accomplish beyond the reach of the Repug scorched earth obstructionism.

His first 2 years were preoccupied by the Banksters' Great Depression and trying to get ACA passed by a thread

Then he lost Congress in 2010 as White Male Christian Supremacists rose up to block their hatted knitter.

I think he and his staff knew they had to pick their battles, and Repugs left them dozens of battles.

iow, the dubya/dickhead shitstorm Reign of Error was insurmountable, and now unpunished but still poisoning America.

Now all the good Obama stuff has been cancelled and even reversed, as the Repugs/Trash/oligarchy bulldozes America, Americans deeper into decline and unfuckability.

koriwhat

02-22-2020, 04:28 PM

Obama's plate was full of shit with Repug Congress obstructing everything.

Obama could have spent all of his 8 years trying clean the plate full of Repug shit that the Repugs handed him, and probably failed, while not having any political capital do the good stuff he did accomplish beyond the reach of the Repug scorched earth obstructionism.

His first 2 years were preoccupied by the Banksters' Great Depression and trying to ACA passed by a thread

Then he lost Congress in 2010 as White Male Christian Supremacist rose up to block their hatted knitter.

I think he and his staff knew they had to pick their battles, and Repugs left them dozens of battles.

iow, the dubya/dickhead shitstorm Reign of Error was insurmountable, and now unpunished but still poisoning America.

Now all the good Obama stuff has been cancelled and even reversed, as the Repugs/Trash/oligarchy bulldozes America, Americans deeper into decline and unfuckability.

excuses as always for your faux golden god

btw, you playing with words still shows your racist ways bouts... "knitter" just say what your racist ass truly wants to say. fucking loser!

Winehole23

02-22-2020, 04:42 PM

Obama's plate was full of shit with Repug Congress obstructing everything.

Obama could have spent all of his 8 years trying clean the plate full of Repug shit that the Repugs handed him, and probably failed, while not having any political capital do the good stuff he did accomplish beyond the reach of the Repug scorched earth obstructionism.

His first 2 years were preoccupied by the Banksters' Great Depression and trying to ACA passed by a thread

Then he lost Congress in 2010 as White Male Christian Supremacist rose up to block their hatted knitter.

I think he and his staff knew they had to pick their battles, and Repugs left them dozens of battles.

iow, the dubya/dickhead shitstorm Reign of Error was insurmountable, and now unpunished but still poisoning America.

Now all the good Obama stuff has been cancelled and even reversed, as the Repugs/Trash/oligarchy bulldozes America, Americans deeper into decline and unfuckability.After Obama was elected, Dems lost traction nationwide for a decade. Any more such victories and the Dems will be finished for good.

Winehole23

10-03-2021, 11:21 AM

Biden fights to keep the US black site in Poland and what happened there a secret.

Continuity, not change.

One of the longest-held prisoners in the U.S. global war on terror is finally getting a day in court. Sort of. The prisoner, Abu Zubaydah, who has never been charged with a crime, has been waiting 14 years for a federal judge to rule on his habeas corpus petition that challenges the legality of his detention. But next week, the Supreme Court will hear arguments on a separate case: Zubaydah’s request that he be permitted to take testimony from the two CIA contractors who oversaw his torture.

The Trump administration intervened to block public disclosure about how Zubaydah was treated while in U.S. custody, or even where he was held, and the Biden administration is continuing the fight. In its Supreme Court briefs, the administration has cited an array of arguments against allowing the two men to be deposed, citing everything from the state secrets privilege, which shields highly sensitive government information from being revealed in civil litigation, to the plot of the Oscar-winning thriller “Argo.”

Zubaydah’s case has reached the Supreme Court circuitously, beginning with an investigation in Poland five years ago into whether any of its government officials were complicit in Zubaydah’s detention and torture. The United States has refused to cooperate with the Polish prosecutors, citing national security concerns.
https://www.propublica.org/article/will-the-united-states-officially-acknowledge-that-it-had-a-secret-torture-site-in-poland

Winehole23

10-03-2021, 11:52 AM

the US wrecked its human rights prestige and its reputation for impartial justice for nothing, tbh

Zubaydah was the first prisoner on whom Mitchell and Jessen tested their techniques, according to a Senate Intelligence Committee report released in 2014.

After the CIA seized Zubaydah in Pakistan in March 2002 and secretly took him to a black site in Thailand, Bush administration officials asserted that he was al-Qaida’s third-highest-ranking leader. The government has since acknowledged that he was not a senior terrorist leader and that he had no known connection to the 9/11 attacks. He had been in and out of Afghanistan and Pakistan for nearly a decade and had suffered a serious head injury while fighting against the Soviet-backed government. Intelligence officials concluded he was more of a facilitator, providing false passports, housing and other arrangements for men, some potential terrorists, who moved between the two countries.

“He wasn’t hatching plots and giving orders,” Robert Grenier, the CIA station chief in Islamabad when Zubaydah was being monitored and eventually seized, wrote in his book “88 Days to Kandahar.” “I did not expect that he would know the time or place of the next attack.” However, in Washington, CIA officials were convinced that Zubaydah knew about plans to attack the United States, and Mitchell was determined to extract the information, according to declassified documents.

After being waterboarded 83 times in Thailand, Zubaydah had still not revealed any “actionable intelligence,” cables from Thailand to Langley reported. Later, interrogators would conclude he knew nothing about al-Qaida’s plans.

Winehole23

10-03-2021, 11:52 AM

As the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a nonprofit organization in London, put it in a brief recently filed with the Supreme Court in support of Zubaydah, “Study after study, report after report, emerging from the CIA, DOJ and SSCI, along with flight record after flight record, flight invoice after invoice, have confirmed, in graphic and granular detail, what the world already knows: that the CIA had black sites in Thailand, Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay.”

Even the former Polish President Aleksander Kwaśniewski has acknowledged that the CIA had set up a black site in his country. “Of course, everything took place with my knowledge,” he told Poland’s leading newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcza, in 2012. “The President and the Prime Minister agreed to the intelligence co-operation with the Americans, because this was what was required by national interest.”

Winehole23

10-03-2021, 04:01 PM

If Zubaydah wins his bid to admit evidence of his own “interrogation” at his secret military trial, that could be (by my casual count) three alleged 9/11 perps who got off because we tortured them.

Winehole23

10-07-2021, 01:46 AM

"no one cares"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBCLvDwXEAAdLKw?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBCLvDuWQAEPsak?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBCOH6_UYAUZo59?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBCOH7BVIAQuqAk?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBCOH6eXoAIAJRU?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBCOH7AVUAwk2Qf?format=jpg&name=medium

Winehole23

10-07-2021, 01:47 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBEOKuFXEAQHz88?format=jpg&name=900x900

Winehole23

10-12-2021, 11:06 AM

"no one cares"

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2020/12/EouTiEbVgAkus5x-e1607973991645.jpeg

“The fact that he was tortured by these [CIA] contractors in Poland, that’s not a state secret?” Justice Amy Coney Barrett asked Zubaydah’s lawyer at one point. She used the word “torture” several times in her questioning of both sides.https://www.propublica.org/article/a-guantanamo-detainees-case-has-been-languishing-without-action-since-2008-the-supreme-court-wants-to-know-why

Winehole23

10-12-2021, 11:07 AM

No one cares, part 2

Justice Neil Gorsuch asked whether the government could avoid confirming any secrets if Zubaydah himself testified about how he was treated. This would sidestep the official confirmation that would arise from allowing the CIA contractors to describe what they had done.

Fletcher repeatedly refused to say whether the Biden administration would permit Zubaydah to give sworn testimony for use in the Polish case, prompting a pointed question from Gorsuch.

“I’d just really appreciate a straight answer to this. Will the government make Petitioner [Zubaydah] available to testify as to his treatment during these dates [when he was held in Poland]?” Gorsuch asked the government.

(https://www.propublica.org/article/guantanamo-detainee-case-stalled-for-2477-days-and-counting)Fletcher said he couldn’t answer that.

Gorsuch wasn’t happy. “This case has been litigated for years and all the way up to the United States Supreme Court, and you haven’t considered whether that’s an off-ramp that — that the government could provide that would obviate the need for any of this?”

After a further dodge by the government lawyer, Gorsuch said again, “I personally would like a straight answer to that question.”

Justice Sonia Sotomayor joined, “We want a clear answer, are you going to permit him to testify as to what happened to him those dates without invoking a state secret or other privilege? Yes, no. That’s all we’re looking for.”

Winehole23

10-23-2021, 04:23 AM

Oddly, these stories about a topic no one cares about keep getting reported on.

Ahmad Rabbani, a Karachi taxi driver, was a case of mistaken identity. Detained for 17 years without trial or charges and tortured for no reason at a US black site for nearly two years.

Six US agencies have recommended he be released.

https://www.samaa.tv/news/2021/10/guantanamo-bay-frees-mistaken-karachi-taxi-driver-after-17-years/

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/14/guantanamo-torture-afghanistan-pakistan-ahmed-rabbani-no-charge-trial-biden-obama-trump-reprieve/

DMC

10-23-2021, 08:21 AM

You're on a 10 post streak. Hopefully this will help you appear to not be talking to yourself.

Winehole23

10-24-2021, 12:45 AM

You're on a 10 post streak. Hopefully this will help you appear to not be talking to yourself.I think of it as a clip file. Helps to follow the story as it continues to develop.

Your continual moaning about it raises questions about your professed level of disinterest, tbh.

Winehole23

10-24-2021, 01:07 AM

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DiligentCheeryAddax-size_restricted.gif

DMC

10-24-2021, 10:59 AM

I think of it as a clip file. Helps to follow the story as it continues to develop.

Your continual moaning about it raises questions about your professed level of disinterest, tbh.

No one is reading it but you. Who do you think you're providing information to?

People like you and Boutons are strange. You regurgitate confirmation bias articles like a bot like you're campaigning :lol

You both rarely engage in any real conversation. I cannot count the number of times you offered up fake news and then been called on it and you just keep dumping shit articles like it never happened.

Winehole23

10-24-2021, 08:20 PM

You have no idea who's reading what, tbh.

Sorry you can't count.

Ef-man

10-24-2021, 08:25 PM

You have no idea who's reading what, tbh.

Sorry you can't count.

He just wants to know if you would date a tranny and if not, why?

Winehole23

10-24-2021, 10:20 PM

A guy with no take in this thread who is only complaining about me, blames me for the lack of conversation and topicality.

Must be lonely.

Winehole23

12-20-2021, 04:01 PM

Strong pattern of professionally conflicted judges

1473021369466208269

Winehole23

03-15-2022, 10:46 AM

"Interrogation training"

1503601588346109954

Winehole23

02-02-2023, 12:33 PM

High value detainee repatriated to Belize after the end of his prison term.

He was the first prisoner to be freed from Guantánamo Bay who had been held there as a “high-value detainee,” the intelligence community’s term for a former prisoner of a C.I.A. black site who was subjected to the Bush administration’s secret torture program of “enhanced interrogation.”

A damning 2014 Senate investigation (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2462194-the-senate-select-committee-on-intelligence.html) of the covert program disclosed what the C.I.A. did to Mr. Khan when he went on a hunger strike in his second year of detention: His captors “infused” a purée of pasta, sauce, nuts, raisins and hummus into his rectum. His lawyers called it rape.

At his sentencing in 2021, Mr. Khan expressed remorse for his crimes and related his story (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/28/us/politics/guantanamo-detainee-torture.html)to a U.S. military jury at Guantánamo, which followed war court guidelines and sentenced him retroactively to 26 years in prison. Seven of the jurors then urged granting him clemency.

“This abuse was of no practical value in terms of intelligence, or any other tangible benefit to U.S. interests,” they said in a handwritten letter (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/31/us/politics/guantanamo-torture-letter.html) from the jury room. “Instead, it is a stain on the moral fiber of America; the treatment of Mr. Khan in the hands of U.S. personnel should be a source of shame for the U.S. government.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/02/us/politics/tortured-guantanamo-detainee-freed.html

Winehole23

03-06-2023, 07:02 PM

"DeSantis did not respond to requests for comment."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHHIiaXoAIVvOa?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHHIiTXwAEdRfu?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHHIiTXwAAeWsb?format=jpg&name=largehttps://harpers.org/archive/2023/03/ron-desantis-force-feedings-guantanamo-bay-laughing/

boutons_deux

03-06-2023, 07:33 PM

When Force-Feeding Is Torture

After years of litigation, The Nation and Type Investigations have acquired footage of a force-feeding at a federal prison.

It shows treatment that may amount to torture.

https://www.thenation.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=896,quality=80,format=auto/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Juhasz-Stahl-FF-ftr.jpg

Two straps crisscross his abdomen, pinning his shoulders to the chair.

Each ankle has its own restraint, and another strap is buckled across his thighs.

His handcuffed wrists rest in his lap.

His body is limp.

A week earlier, Salameh was so weak that when guards came to remove him from his cell, he couldn’t walk to the door.

(He got a disciplinary ticket for this “offense.”)

Still, as the force-feeding is about to begin,

three men dressed in black riot gear encircle him. :lol

They grasp Salameh’s head and shoulders as the physician assistant inserts a nasogastric tube into his nostril.

Then the PA puts a carton of nutritional supplement and some sterile water into a feeding bag.

The fluid starts flowing into Salameh’s body.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/force-feeding-torture-prison-video

boutons_deux

03-06-2023, 07:35 PM

isolation imprisonment is also torture, as it damages the brain

but "Americans Don't Torture" -- shrub

Winehole23

03-06-2023, 07:36 PM

"we tortured some folks"

Winehole23

06-27-2023, 08:50 AM

UN Rapporteur says conditions at Gitmo “may also meet the legal threshold for torture."

The last 30 detainees at Guantánamo Bay, including the men accused of plotting the Sept. 11 attacks, are being held by the United States under circumstances that constitute “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment under international law,” a United Nations human rights investigator said on Monday.

Fionnuala Ni Aolain (https://www.ohchr.org/en/special-procedures/sr-terrorism/ms-fionnuala-d-ni-aolain), a law professor in Minnesota serving as special rapporteur on counterterrorism and human rights, included the finding in a report drawn from a four-day visit (https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/2023-06-26-sr-terrorism-technical-visit-us-guantanamo-detention-facility/1874fc8b8302dce5/full.pdf) to the prison in February, which included meetings with an undisclosed number of detainees and interviews with lawyers and former prisoners. She issued the report one month before her term as rapporteur ends.

She specifically cited the cumulative effects of inadequate health care, solitary confinement, restraints and use of force to remove prisoners from their cells as contributing to her conclusions. She said the conditions at the prison “may also meet the legal threshold for torture.”

Ms. Ni Aolain was the first United Nations investigator to be granted access to the detention center in its two-decade history. She said in an interview that she met with a cross section of the 34 prisoners who were there in February, including former C.I.A. detainees who are facing criminal charges and others who have been approved for transfer to other nations. Today, 30 remain (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/guantanamo-bay-detainees.html#held-table).

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/26/us/politics/gitmo-prisoners-united-nations.html

Winehole23

07-13-2023, 09:02 AM

"no one cares"

So, at least for the time being, it is controlling law across the military commissions not only that the government can use torture-obtained evidence in any proceeding save for at trial or sentencing but also that the foundation of a case itself can rest on such evidence. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-military-commissions-can-t-seem-to-quit-torture-evidence

Winehole23

07-13-2023, 09:05 AM

In 2021, the CA referred charges against Encep Nurjaman, related primarily to the 2002 Bali bombings and the 2003 JW Marriott hotel attack in Jakarta. The referral was based at least in part on torture-obtained evidence, specifically, an excerpt of the 9/11 Commission Report drawn from interrogations during which Nurjaman and others were tortured. That fact is not in dispute.

Winehole23

07-13-2023, 09:06 AM

In the meantime, the D.C. Circuit is mulling over the same issue in yet another, long-troubled (https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/dc-circuit-hears-oral-argument-bahlul-v-united-states) case: Bahlul v. United States. Ali Hamza Al Bahlul, the only Guantanamo detainee convicted after trial by military commission, is serving a life sentence (at least presently) at Guantanamo. Between 2014 and 2015, the D.C. Circuit vacated all but one (https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/overview-dc-circuits-opinion-al-bahlul-v-united-states) of his convictions. Last May, the CMCR affirmed his life sentence nonetheless. Bahlul has objected that, in doing so, the CMCR violated 948r(a) because it relied on evidence obtained from his torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. The government, notably, never disputed or defended the use of such evidence, instead asking the D.C. Circuit to duck the issue on procedural grounds. Al Bahlul’s lawyers, though, have now filed (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23871100-2023-06-27-28j?responsive=1&title=1) the CMCR’s Nurjaman decision with the D.C. Circuit to demonstrate the need for the court to resolve the issue.

Winehole23

08-26-2023, 04:57 PM

Military commissions don't work, but even to the extent they do, they have been undermined by torture and lnhumane detention.

1695551534161969315

FuzzyLumpkins

08-26-2023, 11:15 PM

Military commissions don't work, but even to the extent they do, they have been undermined by torture and lnhumane detention.

1695551534161969315

If you know for certain that someone has information you can torture it out of them. To that extent I can understand it's targeted use.

What we did was largely for punitive and fishing purposes. It's disgusting as is how the national security institutions like the CIA and NSA can act with impunity.

Thread

08-26-2023, 11:24 PM

If you know for certain that someone has information you can torture it out of them. To that extent I can understand it's targeted use.

What we did was largely for punitive and fishing purposes. It's disgusting as is how the national security institutions like the CIA and NSA can act with impunity.

Here is a result of the aforementioned CIA impunity...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhuYUSc_9As54BjOoh4eZSZWtuNoakR NicEKFvJ7gl65sKi6zoMVtorZw2FQ&s

The U.S.A. ain't got diddly squat on Russia, Lumpster.

Thread

08-26-2023, 11:25 PM

Military commissions don't work, but even to the extent they do, they have been undermined by torture and lnhumane detention.

1695551534161969315

The U.S.A. ain't got diddly squat on Russia, Winester.

FuzzyLumpkins

08-26-2023, 11:35 PM

Thread
notthewordsofonewhokneels

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No supply for you, Dale. I advise you to go to a senior center and try to get laid as opposed to the nonstop shitposting for attention.

Thread

08-26-2023, 11:57 PM

Winehole23

08-27-2023, 12:53 AM

If you know for certain that someone has information you can torture it out of them. To that extent I can understand it's targeted use.

What we did was largely for punitive and fishing purposes. It's disgusting as is how the national security institutions like the CIA and NSA can act with impunity.The thing is, under exquisite duress, people will confess to anything. The ticking time bomb scenario with a perp or associate already in custody is quite rare. We detained a bunch of people who knew nothing valuable or were turned in by unscrupulous people to collect bounties.

GWB and Obama released like 75% percent of the Gitmo detainees without any charges.

FuzzyLumpkins

08-27-2023, 01:12 AM

The thing is, under exquisite duress, people will confess to anything. The ticking time bomb scenario with a perp or associate already in custody is quite rare. We detained a bunch of people who knew nothing valuable or were turned in by unscrupulous people to collect bounties.

GWB and Obama released like 75% percent of the Gitmo detainees without any charges.

Which is exactly the issue with fishing. People will make shit up just to make the torture stop which is not only immoral and illegal but also counter productive.

Something like this needs transparent oversight and given the nature of the NSA and intelligence apparatus that is impossible. The only sensible option is to just shut it all down.

Thread

08-27-2023, 01:17 AM

The thing is, under exquisite duress, people will confess to anything. The ticking time bomb scenario with a perp or associate already in custody is quite rare. We detained a bunch of people who knew nothing valuable or were turned in by unscrupulous people to collect bounties.

GWB and Obama released like 75% percent of the Gitmo detainees without any charges.

Well, you've obviously got Trump on-the-spot as far as [[[under exquisite duress.]]] Day 1 of his Presidency they threatened to blow up the White House as he, his wife and their only child tried to move in. tee, hee.

Bet he don't [[[confess]]], Winester.

Winehole23

08-27-2023, 02:24 AM

Which is exactly the issue with fishing. People will make shit up just to make the torture stop which is not only immoral and illegal but also counter productive.

Something like this needs transparent oversight and given the nature of the NSA and intelligence apparatus that is impossible. The only sensible option is to just shut it all down.Obama failed to deliver on this promise, and the torture continued. I heartily agree it should all be shut down. Even though we forfeit prestige and our good reputation for giving bad guys a fair shake -- impartial justice. The black eye isn't going away.

Hell, we're still sporting it proudly.

Winehole23

08-27-2023, 02:35 AM

tl;dr

Gitmo military commissions have convicted one guy by trial in 20 years.

We probably would have convicted more bad guys the regular way, but no, we preferred a lawless torture gulag for people we rounded up higgeldy-piggeldy to sate the national appetite for vengeance and blood.

Winehole23

08-27-2023, 02:42 AM

CC, DarrinS, DMC and many other board conservatives were fully on board the whole way and probably still are.

Thread

08-27-2023, 10:13 AM

CC, DarrinS, DMC and many other board conservatives were fully on board the whole way and probably still are.

...Sure, absolutely till you included President Trump to the torture and multiple threats on his life.

Thread

08-27-2023, 10:16 AM

Obama failed to deliver on this promise, and the torture continued. I heartily agree it should all be shut down. Even though we forfeit prestige and our good reputation for giving bad guys a fair shake -- impartial justice. The black eye isn't going away.

Hell, we're still sporting it proudly.

Sure, absolutely, Hussein ("and the torture continued")...Hussein even murdered Bin Laden on spec. Damn well better hope Bin did it, otherwise when God opens Hussein's Book he ain't a gonna be able to place the race card then...

FuzzyLumpkins

08-27-2023, 10:36 AM

Obama failed to deliver on this promise, and the torture continued. I heartily agree it should all be shut down. Even though we forfeit prestige and our good reputation for giving bad guys a fair shake -- impartial justice. The black eye isn't going away.

Hell, we're still sporting it proudly.

the way that he responded made it clear to me that someone from the NSA or CIA convinced him otherwise. It became a double whammy of going back on that promise and his promise of transparency.

He is a Chicago politician so I was not particularly surprised. I don't think I have ever been so happy to vote third party as when he was running.

Thread

08-27-2023, 12:02 PM

the way that he responded made it clear to me that someone from the NSA or CIA convinced him otherwise. It became a double whammy of going back on that promise and his promise of transparency.

He is a Chicago politician so I was not particularly surprised. I don't think I have ever been so happy to vote third party as when he was running.

Then you pulled the lever for Hussein anyway, just in case.

Winehole23

09-28-2023, 09:07 AM

US torture of detainees undermines the effort to bring alleged 9/11 plotters to justice.

Lawyers for Mr. Mohammed and the other defendants want the judge to exclude from their death-penalty trial, scheduled to start (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/30/us/politics/sept-11-trial-guantanamo-bay.html) in January 2021, what they told F.B.I. agents in early 2007, months after they got to Guantánamo. The defense lawyers say those interrogations — carried out by what prosecutors say were “clean teams” from the F.B.I. who were unfamiliar with evidence unlawfully obtained from the defendants during the years they were in C.I.A. custody and subject to torture — were in fact tainted by years of clandestine C.I.A.-F.B.I. collaboration (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/us/politics/fbi-cia-torture.html).

The defense lawyers argue that the prisoners provided the same answers to F.B.I. agents in 2007 that they had previously given to the C.I.A. at black sites where they were punished for not cooperating, and did not believe, based on conditions at Guantánamo, that they had free choice to refuse.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/us/politics/gitmo-9-11-trial.html

Winehole23

09-29-2023, 12:23 PM

it's probably a selling point for many board conservatives, but torture rendered an accused 9/11 plotter unfit for trial

1705250772596789460

Winehole23

08-01-2024, 09:20 AM

KSM pleads out

A regular court would long since have convicted him, tbh

1818771116271497397https://x.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1818771116271497397

Winehole23

08-01-2024, 09:25 AM

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3857257/plea-agreements-reached-with-911-defendants-khalid-shaikh-mohammad-walid-bin-at/

koriwhat

08-01-2024, 04:59 PM

IDGAF about Gitmo. Throw them all away or into the ocean. :tu

Ef-man

08-01-2024, 05:03 PM

Alright, who got caught by banging calf-tats’ mom/boss?

Speak up.

You got joey all upset and all excited, posting as though there was a 2 for 1 special at the crack house.

Thread

08-01-2024, 05:16 PM

IDGAF about Gitmo. Throw them all away or into the ocean. :tu

Yep.

Winehole23

08-02-2024, 08:59 PM

the detainees may die from old age and mistreatment in Gitmo before they ever receive a trial

Defense Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III on Friday overruled the overseer of the war court at Guantánamo Bay and revoked a plea agreement reached earlier this week with the accused mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and two alleged accomplices.

The Pentagon announced the decision with the release of a memorandum relieving the senior official at the Defense Department responsible for military commissions of her oversight of the capital case against Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and his alleged accomplices for the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people in New York City, at the Pentagon and in a Pennsylvania field.

The overseer, retired Brig. Gen. Susan K. Escallier, signed a pretrial agreement on Wednesday with Mr. Mohammed, Walid bin Attash and Mustafa al-Hawsawi that exchanged guilty pleas for sentences of at most life in prison. In taking away the authority, Mr. Austin assumed direct oversight of the case and canceled the agreement, effectively reinstating it as a death-penalty case. He left Ms. Escallier in the role of oversight of Guantánamo’s other cases.https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/02/us/politics/911-plotters-plea-deal.html

Winehole23

08-03-2024, 12:43 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GUBCQERXgAARm9n?format=jpg&name=900x900

Winehole23

01-07-2025, 10:01 PM

Austin's move to rescind the plea agreements got slapped down, Biden just made an emergency appeal to withdraw them again.

Trials are hard enough to win at Gitmo -- 2 of 780 detainees convicted in 22 years -- US armed forces, doctors and contractors having tortured folks makes it even harder. A plea deal is probably the best legal outcome available.

The Pentagon is asking a federal appeals court (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25481434-guantanamo/) to block a military judge’s plan to accept plea deals reached with a 9/11 mastermind and two other defendants in the attacks.

In an emergency filing with the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, the department — represented by Justice Department attorneys — asked the federal judges to take an extraordinary step and declare that Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin’s decision to revoke the plea agreements can be reinstated.

"That ruling countermands the Secretary’s considered judgment about the appropriate handling of a case of unique national importance,” Brian Fletcher, principal deputy solicitor general, wrote. “Preserving the Secretary of Defense’s authority to make fundamental decisions about the handling of the prosecutions of the individuals allegedly responsible for those attacks is a matter of critical importance warranting the issuance of extraordinary relief.”

Austin withdrew the pre-trial agreements (https://media.defense.gov/2024/Aug/02/2003517325/-1/-1/1/Secretary-of-Defense-Memorandum-for-Convening-Authority-for-Military-Commissions.PDF) in August made with the defendants, who are all being held in Guantanamo Bay.

But a November ruling concluded the plea (https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/f7dcb1c8440849af/48cea6e3-full.pdf) agreements were valid and dismissed Austin’s order to throw them out.

And in December, a military appeals court ruled against (https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttools/64436cfd1f6a490e/34c937f6-full.pdf) Austin’s appeal to throw out plea deals for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and two other defendants in the 9/11 attacks. The ruling reinstated the decision to allow the three men to plead guilty and potentially avoid the death penalty for planning the al-Qaeda attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on Sept. 11, 2001.
Pentagon files appeal to halt Guantanamo Bay plea deals - POLITICO (https://www.politico.com/news/2025/01/07/pentagon-files-appeal-to-halt-guantanamo-bay-plea-deals-00196977)