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Winehole23
10-06-2009, 03:03 PM
Deployments and Diplomacy (http://www.newsweek.com/id/216704/page/1)

More troops is a start. But to win in Afghanistan, we'll need help from its powerful neighbors.


By Henry Kissinger (http://search.newsweek.com/search?byline=henry%20kissinger) | NEWSWEEK
Published Oct 3, 2009

The request for additional forces by the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, poses cruel dilemmas for President Obama. If he refuses the recommendation and General McChrystal's argument that his forces are inadequate for the mission, Obama will be blamed for the dramatic consequences. If he accepts the recommendation, his opponents may come to describe it, at least in part, as Obama's war. If he compromises, he may fall between all stools—too little to make progress, too much to still controversy. And he must make the choice on the basis of assessments he cannot prove when he makes them.

This is the inextricable anguish of the presidency, for which Obama is entitled to respect from every side of the debate. Full disclosure compels me to state at the beginning that I favor fulfilling the commander's request and a modification of the strategy. But I also hope that the debate ahead of us avoids the demoralizing trajectory that characterized the previous controversies in wars against adversaries using guerrilla tactics, especially Vietnam and Iraq.

Each of those wars began with widespread public support. Each developed into a stalemate, in part because the strategy of guerrillas generally aims at psychological exhaustion. Stalemate triggered a debate about the winnability of the war. A significant segment of the public grew disenchanted and started questioning the moral basis of the conflict. Inexorably, the demand arose for an exit strategy with an emphasis on exit and not strategy.
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The demand for an exit strategy is, of course, a metaphor for withdrawal, and withdrawal that is not accompanied by a willingness to sustain the outcome amounts to abandonment. In Vietnam, Congress terminated an American role even after all our troops had, in fact, been withdrawn for two years. It remains to be seen to what extent the achievements of the surge in Iraq will be sustained there politically.

The most unambiguous form of exit strategy is victory, though as we have seen in Korea, where American troops have remained since 1953, even that may not permit troop withdrawals. A seemingly unavoidable paradox emerges. The domestic debate generates the pressure for diplomatic compromise. Yet the fanaticism that motivates guerrillas—not to speak of suicide bombers—does not allow for compromise unless they face defeat or exhaustion. That, in turn, implies a surge testing the patience of the American public. Is that paradox soluble?


The prevailing strategy in Afghanistan is based on the classic anti-insurrection doctrine: to build a central government, commit it to the improvement of the lives of its people, and then protect the population until that government's own forces are able, with our training, to take over. The request for more forces by General McChrystal states explicitly that his existing forces are inadequate for this mission, implying three options: to continue the present deployment and abandon the McChrystal strategy; to decrease the present deployment with a new strategy; or to increase the existing deployment with a strategy focused on the security of the population. A decision not to increase current force levels involves, at a minimum, abandoning the strategy proposed by General McChrystal and endorsed by Gen. David Petraeus; it would be widely interpreted as the first step toward withdrawal. The second option—offered as an alternative—would shrink the current mission by focusing on counter-terrorism rather than counter-insurgency. The argument would be that the overriding American strategic objective in Afghanistan is to prevent the country from turning once again into a base for international terrorism. Hence the defeat of Al Qaeda and radical Islamic jihad should be the dominant priority. Since the Taliban, according to this view, is a local, not a global, threat, it can be relegated to being a secondary target. A negotiation with the group might isolate Al Qaeda and lead to its defeat, in return for not challenging the Taliban in the governance of Afghanistan. After all, it was the Taliban which provided bases for Al Qaeda in the first place.


This theory seems to me to be too clever by half. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are unlikely to be able to be separated so neatly geographically. It would also imply the partition of Afghanistan along functional lines, for it is highly improbable that the civic actions on which our policies are based could be carried out in areas controlled by the Taliban. Even so-called realists—like me—would gag at a tacit U.S. cooperation with the Taliban in the governance of Afghanistan.


This is not to exclude the possibility of defections from the Taliban as occurred from Al Qaeda in Iraq's Anbar province. But those occurred after the surge, not as a way to avoid it. To adopt such a course is a disguised way of retreating from Afghanistan altogether.


Those in the chain of command in Afghanistan, each with outstanding qualifications, have all been recently appointed by the Obama administration. Rejecting their recommendations would be a triumph of domestic politics over strategic judgment. It would draw us into a numbers game without definable criteria.


President Obama, as a candidate, proclaimed Afghanistan a necessary war. As president, he has shown considerable courage in implementing his promise to increase our forces in Afghanistan and to pursue the war more energetically. A sudden reversal of American policy would fundamentally affect domestic stability in Pakistan by freeing the Qaeda forces along the Afghan border for even deeper incursions into Pakistan, threatening domestic chaos. It would raise the most serious questions about American steadiness in India, the probable target should a collapse in Afghanistan give jihad an even greater impetus. In short, the reversal of a process introduced with sweeping visions by two administrations may lead to chaos, ultimately deeper American involvement, and loss of confidence in American reliability. The prospects of world order will be greatly affected by whether our strategy comes to be perceived as a retreat from the region, or a more effective way to sustain it.


The military strategy proposed by Generals McChrystal and Petraeus needs, however, to be given a broader context with particular emphasis on the political environment. Every guerrilla war raises the challenge of how to define military objectives. Military strategy is traditionally defined by control of the maximum amount of territory. But the strategy of the guerrilla—described by Mao—is to draw the adversary into a morass of popular resistance in which, after a while, extrication becomes his principal objective. In Vietnam, the guerrillas often ceded control of the territory during the day and returned at night to prevent political stabilization. Therefore, in guerrilla war, control of 75 percent of the territory 100 percent of the time is more important than controlling 100 percent of the territory 75 percent of the time. A key strategic issue, therefore, will be which part of Afghan territory can be effectively controlled in terms of these criteria.


This is of particular relevance to Afghanistan. No outside force has, since the Mongol invasion, ever pacified the entire country. Even Alexander the Great only passed through. Afghanistan has been governed, if at all, by a coalition of local feudal or semifeudal rulers. In the past, any attempt to endow the central government with overriding authority has been resisted by some established local rulers. That is likely to be the fate of any central government in Kabul, regardless of its ideological coloration and perhaps even its efficiency. It would be ironic if, by following the received counterinsurgency playbook too literally, we produced another motive for civil war. Can a civil society be built on a national basis in a country which is neither a nation nor a state?


In a partly feudal, multiethnic society, fundamental social reform is a long process, perhaps unrelatable to the rhythm of our electoral processes. For the foreseeable future, the control from Kabul may be tenuous and its structure less than ideal. More emphasis needs to be given to regional efforts and regional militia. This would also enhance our political flexibility. A major effort is needed to encourage such an evolution.


Concurrently, a serious diplomatic effort is needed to address the major anomaly of the Afghan war. In all previous American ground-combat efforts, once the decision was taken, there was no alternative to America's leading the effort; no other country had the combination of resources or national interest required. The special aspect of Afghanistan is that it has powerful neighbors or near neighbors—Pakistan, India, China, Russia, Iran. Each is threatened in one way or another and, in many respects, more than we are by the emergence of a base for international terrorism: Pakistan by Al Qaeda; India by general jihadism and specific terror groups; China by fundamentalist Shiite jihadists in Xinjiang; Russia by unrest in the Muslim south; even Iran by the fundamentalist Sunni Taliban. Each has substantial capacities for defending its interests. Each has chosen, so far, to stand more or less aloof.


The summit of neighboring (or near-neighboring) countries proposed by the secretary of state could, together with NATO allies, begin to deal with this anomaly. It should seek an international commitment to an enforced nonterrorist Afghanistan, much as countries were neutralized by international agreement when Europe dominated world affairs. This is a complex undertaking. But a -common effort could at least remove shortsighted temptations to benefit from the embarrassment of rivals. It would take advantage of the positive aspect that, unlike Vietnam or Iraq, the guerrillas do not enjoy significant support. It may finally be the route to an effective national government. If cooperation cannot be achieved, the United States may have no choice but to reconsider its options and to gear its role in Afghanistan to goals directly relevant to threats to American security. In that eventuality, it will do so not as an abdication but as a strategic judgment. But it is premature to reach such a conclusion on present evidence.


For the immediate future, it is essential to avoid another wrenching domestic division and to conduct the inevitable debate with respect for its complexity and the stark choices confronting our country.

MannyIsGod
10-06-2009, 03:20 PM
For the immediate future, it is essential to avoid another wrenching domestic division and to conduct the inevitable debate with respect for its complexity and the stark choices confronting our country.


LOL Good luck with that. No matter what Obama decides the GOP will find a way to oppose it. Thats their only goal.

Winehole23
10-06-2009, 03:29 PM
LOL Good luck with that. No matter what Obama decides the GOP will find a way to oppose it. Thats their only goal.It's their job. There's not really much else for them to do right now.

DarrinS
10-06-2009, 03:44 PM
LOL Good luck with that. No matter what Obama decides the GOP will find a way to oppose it. Thats their only goal.


Yeah, I'm sure that if Obama wants to give his general everything he needs there will be a huge GOP backlash. :rolleyes

MannyIsGod
10-06-2009, 03:57 PM
It's their job. There's not really much else for them to do right now.

Not according to Kissinger.

boutons_deux
10-06-2009, 03:59 PM
Fuck Iraq and Afghanistan.

The defense of USA is best done at and inside our borders.

The alternative is to spend decades and $Ts and 1000s of lives in those two countries, for no increase in US security.

Like VN, both countries are total losses for US military misadventurism.

Let's leave now, and begin to react to the inevitable collapse of both countries

Wild Cobra
10-06-2009, 04:06 PM
Fuck Iraq and Afghanistan.

The defense of USA is best done at and inside our borders.

Step 1: Bring all the troops home to only defend the USA. Meanwhile, other parts of the world fall.

Step 2: Because we no longer need the massive military complex, dismantle 100% of the Navy, and 80% of the other branches.

Step 3: Declare peace.

Then what happens? In our complacency, someone attacks us. We are now fighting bloody war in our cities with millions of US casualties. We might even lose as our military is now nothing but a government social programs for communities.

What a liberal paradise.

Winehole23
10-06-2009, 04:08 PM
Not according to Kissinger.Sure. But the idea of any rapprochement with Obama, even limited to the war, is very unlikely.

The whole idea of the two parties coming together for the good of the country would seem to be outmoded.

Viva Las Espuelas
10-06-2009, 05:45 PM
Polly want a cracker? raaaaaaaaaah

Winehole23
10-06-2009, 05:52 PM
You may not have caught the drift, but I disagree with with Kissinger's tack. However, I think his stance is genteel and well argued, so I posted his article here.

Care to discuss, VLE?

hope4dopes
10-06-2009, 06:02 PM
LOL Good luck with that. No matter what Obama decides the GOP will find a way to oppose it. Thats their only goal. and how do you think they'll do it seeing as how the congress and the president are all democrats.

hope4dopes
10-06-2009, 06:04 PM
Fuck Iraq and Afghanistan.

The defense of USA is best done at and inside our borders.

The alternative is to spend decades and $Ts and 1000s of lives in those two countries, for no increase in US security.

Like VN, both countries are total losses for US military misadventurism.

Let's leave now, and begin to react to the inevitable collapse of both countries interesting but it could be dangerous and shortshighted.

George Gervin's Afro
10-06-2009, 06:04 PM
and how do you think they'll do it seeing as how the congress and the president are all democrats.

keep your head in the sand. you are affirming wht an idiot you are with every post...

hope4dopes
10-06-2009, 06:08 PM
keep your head in the sand. you are affirming wht an idiot you are with every post...Okay george take some time off from stocking the shelves with peanut butter and explain.Like they did with health care?

George Gervin's Afro
10-06-2009, 06:15 PM
and how do you think they'll do it seeing as how the congress and the president are all democrats.

the GoP will oppose anything Obama proposes.. it's not that hard to comprehend

hope4dopes
10-06-2009, 06:21 PM
the GoP will oppose anything Obama proposes.. it's not that hard to comprehend

WAKE UP what Im asking is if the the congress is democrat and the president is a democrat lay out for me what you think the gop is likely to EFFECTIVELY stop if anything?

George Gervin's Afro
10-06-2009, 06:35 PM
WAKE UP what Im asking is if the the congress is democrat and the president is a democrat lay out for me what you think the gop is likely to EFFECTIVELY stop if anything?


you're right, the GOP is a useless party. my bad.

dems 58 in senate filibuster in play

congressional dead enders can add amendments to bills to kill them

any other govt. 101 clarifications?

mogrovejo
10-06-2009, 06:39 PM
Deployments and Diplomacy (http://www.newsweek.com/id/216704/page/1)

More troops is a start. But to win in Afghanistan, we'll need help from its powerful neighbors.


By Henry Kissinger (http://search.newsweek.com/search?byline=henry%20kissinger) | NEWSWEEK
Published Oct 3, 2009

The request for additional forces by the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, poses cruel dilemmas for President Obama. If he refuses the recommendation and General McChrystal's argument that his forces are inadequate for the mission, Obama will be blamed for the dramatic consequences. If he accepts the recommendation, his opponents may come to describe it, at least in part, as Obama's war. If he compromises, he may fall between all stools—too little to make progress, too much to still controversy. And he must make the choice on the basis of assessments he cannot prove when he makes them.

Worst possible outcome.



Full disclosure compels me to state at the beginning that I favor fulfilling the commander's request and a modification of the strategy.

Probably the best course of action right now.


Yet the fanaticism that motivates guerrillas—not to speak of suicide bombers—does not allow for compromise unless they face defeat or exhaustion.

Yeps.


This theory seems to me to be too clever by half. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are unlikely to be able to be separated so neatly geographically. It would also imply the partition of Afghanistan along functional lines, for it is highly improbable that the civic actions on which our policies are based could be carried out in areas controlled by the Taliban. Even so-called realists—like me—would gag at a tacit U.S. cooperation with the Taliban in the governance of Afghanistan.

Ditto. Although I wouldn't have a problem with a cooperation with the Taliban, I just think it's extremely unrealistic to believe they'd honour any kind of compromise.



President Obama, as a candidate, proclaimed Afghanistan a necessary war. As president, he has shown considerable courage in implementing his promise to increase our forces in Afghanistan and to pursue the war more energetically. A sudden reversal of American policy would fundamentally affect domestic stability in Pakistan by freeing the Qaeda forces along the Afghan border for even deeper incursions into Pakistan, threatening domestic chaos.

Yeps.


It would raise the most serious questions about American steadiness in India, the probable target should a collapse in Afghanistan give jihad an even greater impetus. In short, the reversal of a process introduced with sweeping visions by two administrations may lead to chaos, ultimately deeper American involvement, and loss of confidence in American reliability. The prospects of world order will be greatly affected by whether our strategy comes to be perceived as a retreat from the region, or a more effective way to sustain it.


And definitely. I've warned in the past to the unintended consequences of this kind of approach.


That is likely to be the fate of any central government in Kabul, regardless of its ideological coloration and perhaps even its efficiency. It would be ironic if, by following the received counterinsurgency playbook too literally, we produced another motive for civil war. Can a civil society be built on a national basis in a country which is neither a nation nor a state?

No need to worry about this. The problem isn't the existence of civil wars in Afghnistan or the lack of a legitimated central government. What needs to be accomplished is to left the groups that can constitute a global thread weakened to the extent they won't be able to be a threat in the forseeable future.

Winehole23
10-06-2009, 06:51 PM
I'll be traveling for a couple of days, mogro, so I might not have the chance to respond until sometime next week.

But I will.

mogrovejo
10-06-2009, 07:06 PM
Have a nice trip. Business or pleasure?

Winehole23
10-06-2009, 07:07 PM
Business. Pretty strictly.

MannyIsGod
10-06-2009, 09:42 PM
No need to worry about this. The problem isn't the existence of civil wars in Afghnistan or the lack of a legitimated central government. What needs to be accomplished is to left the groups that can constitute a global thread weakened to the extent they won't be able to be a threat in the forseeable future.

If that is the case then we should get out now.

Cant_Be_Faded
10-06-2009, 10:19 PM
Say what you will about his ability to talk or keep his head up for an entire conversation the guy still knows his shit.

boutons_deux
10-06-2009, 10:28 PM
There is nothing to "win" in Afghanistan, something Ol Henry doesn't define.

Like Iraq, Afghanistan was not/is not a threat to USA.

There's nothing to win, but plenty to lose, simply by staying and bleeding.

lefty
10-06-2009, 11:31 PM
There is nothing to "win" in Afghanistan, something Ol Henry doesn't define.

Like Iraq, Afghanistan was not/is not a threat to USA.

There's nothing to win, but plenty to lose, simply by staying and bleeding.

Ever heard of opium?

iggypop123
10-06-2009, 11:31 PM
i still think this guy is a spy for the russians

Nbadan
10-07-2009, 12:49 AM
It's like listening to Rummy for advice..

1. Get most of the troops out of Afghanistan
2. Hunt Al-Queda leaders using high tech weapons
3. Support Pakistan's Military in repressing Taliban sympathy in Pakistan and in hunting down any Al-Queda..
4. Keep the Taliban unstable by killing it's leadership
5. Find out who is supplying the Taliban with money and weapons and hurt them..

Winehole23
10-07-2009, 01:02 AM
It's like listening to Joe Biden for advice..

1. Get most of the troops out of Afghanistan
2. Hunt Al-Queda leaders using high tech weapons
3. Support Pakistan's Military in repressing Taliban sympathy in Pakistan and in hunting down any Al-Queda..
4. Keep the Taliban unstable by killing it's leadership
5. Find out who is supplying the Taliban with money and weapons and hurt them..Fixed.

Winehole23
10-07-2009, 01:04 AM
En serio, Dan, by my reading you're completely wrong about number one. Kissinger is for the change recommended by Gen McChrystal -- a massive counterinsurgency ramp up.

Nbadan
10-07-2009, 01:12 AM
Kissinger is a SOB....let Dubya own this war...if Obama sends in the troops needed to regain control in Afghanistan, then this boon-doogle becomes his war....

Winehole23
10-07-2009, 01:25 AM
Kissinger is a SOB....let Dubya own this war...if Obama sends in the troops needed to regain control in Afghanistan, then this boon-doogle becomes his war....If Obama pulls out, he'll wear the loss around his neck, even though his predecessor bollixed it up. He's no Ike.

But he could be an LBJ. If he ramps up, but fails to turn the tide, he may lose in 2012.

For the political fortunes of Mr. Obama, there appear to be no good choices in Afganistan, and Iraq could still bite him on the ass.

whottt
10-07-2009, 06:52 AM
We can't win in the conventional sense, we never could. The country is beyond shithole status and has been for decades, I don't think anyone other than literally a handful of people was alive the last time that country wasn't a shithole.

Afghanistan needs an economic infrastructure and that's hugely difficult task to pull off period much less all at once. It's not that we can't win there so much as it is you can't knock someone down when they are already lying on the ground. We can't win there militarily because there is nothing left to bomb and the government in power is less competent than the Taliban is.

Not to mention that country is surrounded by 4 countries that aren't particularly fond of true Democracy and have zero desire have the US over there...those guys can wage war with us for pennies on thre dollar if we stay on the offense trying to control areas that are simply beyond our control because they border the powerful countries in that region.


You can't look at victory in terms of controlling the geographical boundaries of the country.

Pick a spot, be the government for that spot, I don't mean prop one up, as their government is incompetent and corrupt itself. I mean be the government for that spot turn it ino a non-shithole with an infrastructure where women are actually treated as human beings and you mount your charge culturally and economically.

Offer unconditional shelter and aid to any female Afghanis and their children and you get the UN and other countries to pony up some of the money for it in the name of humanity and you use the one resource Afghanistan has in abundance(and I've had a hard time finding one), the fact that it is smackdab between Iran, Pakistan, China and (more or less) the Russian sphere of influence.


As for Kissinger, if I want to lose a war, he'll be the first guy I call up. I'm not a fan of unbridled idealism but Kissinger represents the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. I literally hate this guys opinion on conflict.


And you guys that just want to leave that a country a festering shithole while still claiming to be members of the human race....May you be reborn an Afghani woman in your next life. Whatever you are you certainly aren't liberals...I suggest you get a clue what the word is supposed to mean(and I already know Kissinger isn't one).

I don't think it's wrong to say we can't win there...but there's something wrong with liberals saying fuck em'...their problem not ours. Abivalence isn't liberalism...

DarrinS
10-07-2009, 08:05 AM
Fuck Iraq and Afghanistan.

The defense of USA is best done at and inside our borders.

The alternative is to spend decades and $Ts and 1000s of lives in those two countries, for no increase in US security.

Like VN, both countries are total losses for US military misadventurism.

Let's leave now, and begin to react to the inevitable collapse of both countries


Fuck Afhanistan, right? I mean, Pakistan is close to being a failed state with nukes. Let's let it fall to Taliban and other Al Qaeda sympathizers. What could go wrong?

101A
10-07-2009, 08:19 AM
...
And you guys that just want to leave that a country a festering shithole while still claiming to be members of the human race....May you be reborn an Afghani woman in your next life. Whatever you are you certainly aren't liberals...I suggest you get a clue what the word is supposed to mean(and I already know Kissinger isn't one).

I don't think it's wrong to say we can't win there...but there's something wrong with liberals saying fuck em'...their problem not ours. Abivalence isn't liberalism...

The libs humanity need not extend beyond the borders of the United States. With that alone they attain and hold moral high ground.

LnGrrrR
10-07-2009, 08:37 AM
The libs humanity need not extend beyond the borders of the United States. With that alone they attain and hold moral high ground.

Can't one understand the plight of others, even sympathize, without wanting to use our national resources?

Surely, if conservatives can discuss how people in America don't need handouts, they can see the idea transported overseas?

whottt
10-07-2009, 01:44 PM
Can't one understand the plight of others, even sympathize, without wanting to use our national resources?


Sure you can....just stop operating under the delustion you are in any way a liberal.




Surely, if conservatives can discuss how people in America don't need handouts, they can see the idea transported overseas?


We are talking about a culture where where women are not allowed to become doctors and not allowed to see male doctors, one of maybe 2 countries in the world where men live longer than women...a country where the slave trade it still strong and a country that is used as a literal toilet by the surrounding countries...and is in that state entirely due to it being used as a proxy battleground.


If you think anything good is going to happen, by walking past the rape, you are truly deluded.



More to the point, their problem, most certainly can become our problem if we just do nothing, see September 11th 2001 for a better example here.

Personally I love this debate because all the bullshit you guys have been spewing for 8 years now gets exposed for being the complete bullshit it is...



There is no oil there. So you cannot pull the oil card.


They are not White, so you cannot pull your stupid racism card.

They are not Christians, so you can not pull your religion card.

They are not Arabs so you cannot claim it is merely their way and just let them go about their business.

I assure the women of that country do not consider being born into that life as...their way.


There is only one reason to attempt to win anything there, and that is simply because it is probably the most inhumane place on this entire planet and it and the hanfful of places like it speak poorly of us a species.

You simply don't want to spend the money.

You know, when they sit there and look at us and hate us for our wealth and say we are this big group of colossal decadent self absorbed assholes who care about no one but ourselves...I wonder which of the two of us here truly fits that bill...Mr. Liberal.

Like I said, I've got no problem with your extremely selfish and greedy position...I just have a problem with you operating under the delusion you are a liberal as you dehumanize pretty much everyone except the other non-liberal idiots thinking they are liberals.


And finally...we'll talk money since put that above human life, Mr. Liberal...


If you think shutting down all our overseas bases and bringing those people home is going to somehow improve our unemployment issues, you are really stupid. I suggest you go take a look at the depression era of the US...see what they did that compounded the problem.


This is what I've been saying for years...you guys aren't liberals, you guys are the greedy, racist, isolationists of historic note you claim the Republicans are....and the attitude you take on Afghanistan proves it.

boutons_deux
10-07-2009, 01:54 PM
So now the righties here are supporting never-ending war in Afghanistan for "humanitarian" reasons, and esp for female humans? :lol

Seems like the righties' humanitarianism stops at the US borders, within which they don't GAF about the for-profit private insurance companies and for-profit health care system letting 10s of 1000s of AMERICANs die for want of health care and from avoidable medical errors, every year.

Whott, the US, esp not US Army, is never going to change the Muslim/tribal culture than treats women like disposable animals. It's not just the Taleban extremists who treat women horribly (by Western standards).

What's next? invade Africa to stop genital mutilation?

LnGrrrR
10-07-2009, 01:54 PM
Sure you can....just stop operating under the delustion you are in any way a liberal.

I don't think I've referred to myself that way. I could be mistaken. I'm certainly socially liberal. Not quite so much on foreign and monetary policy.



You simply don't want to spend the money.

This is true. It's also true that I don't think we can effectively change a culture that has been around for centuries.


You know, when they sit there and look at us and hate us for our wealth and say we are this big group of colossal decadent self absorbed assholes who care about no one but ourselves...I wonder which of the two of us here truly fits that bill...Mr. Liberal.

Nice strawman. The United States is more involved with the rest of the world than most other nations, so I don't see why they'd hate us more than other nations. There's also many people who hate us because we think the sun shines out our ass and we can fix any problem with enough guns.


Like I said, I've got no problem with your extremely selfish and greedy position...I just have a problem with you operating under the delusion you are a liberal as you dehumanize pretty much everyone except the other non-liberal idiots thinking they are liberals.

Why is it any more extremely selfish or greedy to not want to spend money helping foreign countries instead of Americans?

It's the same argument that conservatives make when they complain about being taxed. I'm not against people deciding to donate to worthy causes to help out those third world nations, after all. I'm just skeptical of our government being able to effectively transform the culture of an entire country.

whottt
10-07-2009, 02:04 PM
I don't think I've referred to myself that way. I could be mistaken. I'm certainly socially liberal. Not quite so much on foreign and monetary policy.

Oh well good...as long as you realize that.





This is true. It's also true that I don't think we can effectively change a culture that has been around for centuries.

But it hasn't been like that for centuries...it's much worse now than it has ever been before. In no small part due to the actions of our country and the other superpowers.




Nice strawman. The United States is more involved with the rest of the world than most other nations, so I don't see why they'd hate us more than other nations. There's also many people who hate us because we think the sun shines out our ass and we can fix any problem with enough guns.

I personally think it's our movie stars.




Why is it any more extremely selfish or greedy to not want to spend money helping foreign countries instead of Americans?

It's the same argument that conservatives make when they complain about being taxed. I'm not against people deciding to donate to worthy causes to help out those third world nations, after all. I'm just skeptical of our government being able to effectively transform the culture of an entire country.


The Republicans aren't the ones throwing around the greedy racist card claiming they abhor violence and value humanity...it is the liberals that do that.

And if you say you aren't one...well good for you, so then why are you answering for those who claim to be one? See your response to 101a's statement if you still don't get what I mean.

whottt
10-07-2009, 02:12 PM
So now the righties here are supporting never-ending war in Afghanistan for "humanitarian" reasons, and esp for female humans? :lol

I guess they are in it for the oil.




Seems like the righties' humanitarianism stops at the US borders


Right, which is why we're having this debate right now.



within which they don't GAF about the for-profit private insurance companies and for-profit health care system letting 10s of 1000s of AMERICANs die for want of health care and from avoidable medical errors, every year.

I'm sure they care...I think it's more a case of they don't want the government becoming one of them.

Furthermore, last I checked it was mostly the conservatives saying fuck the insurance companies....as opposed to the libs who want to turn the government into one.



Whott, the US, esp not US Army, is never going to change the Muslim/tribal culture than treats women like disposable animals. It's not just the Taleban extremists who treat women horribly (by Western standards).

I'm not advocating a military war...the only application I'm in favor of using the military for is maintaining a presence.

And it won't be endless...it will stabilize a region of that country and in a few decades they'll be claiming we're the problem and demanding that we leave, and the end result is that it will be less of a shithole.




What's next? invade Africa to stop genital mutilation?

Spoken like someone who truly cares about slavery...

Like I said, nearly everything you have ever said on this forum has been bullshit, and this debate proves it.

"Savages"

I remember when you said it about the Iraqis.


That's exactly what the slave owners said boutons...fuck em they're savages.


I'll repeat what I said a while back...you guys are about as liberal as my butthole.

MannyIsGod
10-07-2009, 02:22 PM
American foreign policy is liberal in nature only when its convenient to the realist goals. Darfur? Rwanda? What?

LnGrrrR
10-07-2009, 02:57 PM
The Republicans aren't the ones throwing around the greedy racist card claiming they abhor violence and value humanity...it is the liberals that do that.

Well, I saw a few conservatives who championed our fight in Iraq as a fight for freedom over there.

I can appreciate those who want to fight for freedom in other countries; I just doubt our ability to effect change, and to do so in a way that doesn't spend a great deal of our resources and severely compromise our ability to defend ourself.


And if you say you aren't one...well good for you, so then why are you answering for those who claim to be one? See your response to 101a's statement if you still don't get what I mean.

I somewhat see your point. I just wanted to clarify that one could have sympathy for an oppressed people without necessarily wanting our government to intervene.

whottt
10-07-2009, 02:59 PM
American foreign policy is liberal in nature only when its convenient to the realist goals. Darfur? Rwanda? What?

Can someone photoshop the word, "impotent catchphrases" into this photo?

http://hisvorpal.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/obama-hope-sheppard-feirey1.jpg


The bottom line as it pertains to Afghanistan...we are already there. Lives have already been lost, money has already been spent. More to the point, we, our country, our government, played a huge role in Afghanistan becoming the modern day shithole that it is...


To the others championing the poor...there is no comparison between being poor in America and being poor in Afghnistan...

Let's do an exchange program of our poor for theirs...see which place they grade as being the better place to live.

I think not drinking your own sewage is a privilege many Americans take for granted.

boutons_deux
10-07-2009, 03:20 PM
"Lives have already been lost"

ah yes, the old dubya logic "We have to keep wasting more lives to honor the those lives we've already wasted"

Nbadan
10-07-2009, 06:04 PM
Generals are supposed to offer their political leaders war strategies on how to win battles, not a withdraw plan, so in a way, McCrystal is doing what he is supposed to be doing....it is the political leaders who must decide whether to follow the General's advice ...and many times they don't...best case scenario, Obama sends in the troops needed to contain the Taliban....your never gonna kill all the Taliban....so your stuck with 100K troops in Iraq, who you can't withdraw or Iraq becomes a Iranian satellite state.... and Afghanistan where you won't be able to withdraw or that country falls to the Taliban...and lets say you over-throw the Taliban completely in Afghanistan...who is to say that the next Democratically elected leader won't be a religious nut who wants to instill Sharia Law....

Nbadan
10-07-2009, 06:07 PM
Is that worth spending another trillion dollars on? Quit thinking that these people are gonna evolve politically just because the U.S. props up their govt....we could be stuck in Afghanistan for a very, very long time...and as we've seen with the poppy-fields, nothing for now will change...

mogrovejo
10-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Kissinger is a SOB....let Dubya own this war...if Obama sends in the troops needed to regain control in Afghanistan, then this boon-doogle becomes his war....

I thought Obama was ferociously in favour of this war. He called it a "war of necessity", wasn't it?

MannyIsGod
10-09-2009, 10:31 AM
According to reports this morning the administration is painting the 40,000 troop request as the middle ground option. If this is indeed true then you can be fairly certain they will be sending 40,000 more troops in.

I don't necessarily like it, but we'll see what type of results we get. I'm not holding my breath for an increase in success

mogrovejo
10-09-2009, 10:33 AM
If that is the case then we should get out now.

I disagree. I don't think those goals are anywhere near being accomplished with the current situation. The Talibans have the momentum and perceptions matter so much that a momentum shift is essential. If the NATO troops withdraw now, how many months will it take till the Talibans enter triumphantly in Kabul, wavering shotguns on the top of trucks? 4, 5?

In Iraq the situation isn't exactly perfect but the terrorist insurgency was limited and weakened to a point where they won't pose a major threat in the future and a withdraw won't be confused with a defeat or used to propaganda effects, as Kissinger adverts.

NoOptionB
10-09-2009, 10:34 AM
The world should just nuke the entire fucking middle east.

That place will always be a shit hole, always causing problems. If you are not going to nuke it, quit sending men and women over there to die for nothing.



Radioactive oil deposits could be more fuel efficient.

boutons_deux
10-09-2009, 10:38 AM
Any positive results will be temporary, evaporating when the US leaves, if the US ever leaves.

Iraq and Afghanistan aren't going to transform into open, stable, self-sustaining democracies because the US busted in and busted some heads, and busted up the infrastructure. They are tribal/ethnic/religious/uneducated/rural primitives who are decades or centuries behind industrial democracies.

spursncowboys
10-09-2009, 11:37 AM
Sure. But the idea of any rapprochement with Obama, even limited to the war, is very unlikely.

The whole idea of the two parties coming together for the good of the country would seem to be outmoded.
Who would be questioning the progressives if not for the conservatives? Not the press. The idea of the opposite party questioning everything the president is doing keeps them honest and the govt running better. The govt. wastes less everytime the executive and legislative branches are opposite parties. However this doesn't matter and isn't the case since the Libs don't need the repubs b/c the Libs hold every kind of national majority.