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duncan228

10-08-2009, 11:31 PM

Popovich brings stingy back (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/63823857.html)
Jeff McDonald

Back when he was in the Eastern Conference, Richard Jefferson used to look forward to a game against the Spurs the way a child looks forward to a visit to the dentist.

The only upside was that he had to do it only twice a year.

“They were a team that, if they weren't scoring, neither were you,” Jefferson said. “They were consistently one of the best defensive teams in the league.”

If coach Gregg Popovich gets his wish, the Spurs will soon get back to playing the kind of defense Jefferson used to know and loathe.

After a decade of standard-setting when it came to the art of suffocating other teams, the Spurs slipped from “elite” to “just pretty good” last season.

They finished ninth in field-goal percentage defense at 45.3 percent, the team's lowest rank and highest number in a dozen full seasons under Popovich. For a while, the Spurs were floundering along in the low 20s, a ranking that rendered Popovich practically apoplectic.

“When this team was successful in the past, it was based on defense,” Michael Finley said. “The last couple of years, we kind of got away from that a little bit. We focused more on scoring than stopping people.”

Before last season, the Popovich-era Spurs had never finished worse than fifth in field-goal percentage defense.

Their best season came in 2003-04, when they set an NBA record by allowing foes to shoot just 40.9 percent from the field. Since then, the Spurs' defensive numbers have risen incrementally each year.

Popovich has spent much of his time on the pulpit this preseason preaching the need for his team to return to the glory days.

“We tried to institute some new things the past couple of years, and they didn't really work out,” Popovich said. “So we're going back to the good old days when we tried to lead the league defensively.”

Tonight's preseason game against Greek power Olympiacos will provide Popovich an early checkpoint in the progress toward that goal.

He is counting on the offseason additions of Antonio McDyess and Theo Ratliff to improve the frontcourt defense, while more consistent playing time for second-year guard George Hill should help on the perimeter. The Spurs also signed veteran guard Keith Bogans in hopes that he could serve as a spot defender off the bench.

The Spurs will not have a lockdown defender on the order of a mid-2000s Bruce Bowen, nor will they even have last year's model. Bowen, an eight-time all-league defender, was included in the June trade that brought Jefferson from Milwaukee and has since retired.

Instead, the Spurs hope Jefferson, known primarily as a scoring swingman these days, can re-emerge as the reliable defensive presence he once was.

“We want to try and reawaken his earlier inclination to play some ‘D',” Popovich said.

Popovich believes the Spurs' defensive efforts could also receive added support from an unlikely ally — the Spurs' offense.

Top to bottom, this year's team boasts a deeper collection of scorers than any other Popovich has coached. More points scored should equal less pressure on the defense to come up with a stop per trip.

“At times in the past we've been offensively challenged,” Popovich said. “That puts a hit on the defense, because you have to play it too much.”

Despite the offseason infusion of offensive talent, Popovich is still pushing the old tried-and-true cliché: Defense wins championships. His aim is for the Spurs to return to what once was a perennial spot among the league's top three in field-goal percentage defense.

Jefferson believes the Spurs can get there.

“Their heyday wasn't that far off,” Jefferson said, “and they've got some of the same core still here.”

If the Spurs are indeed able to recreate that heyday on defense, Jefferson can rest easy. The only time he will have to play against the Spurs this season is in practice.

DOMINANT DEFENSE

During Gregg Popovich’s 12 full seasons as head coach, the Spurs have ranked in the NBA’s top three in defensive points per game. But last year saw their worst ranking in field-goal percentage defense in Popovich’s tenure.

Year FGP (rank) PPG (rank)

97-98 41.1 (1) 88.5 (1)
98-99 40.2 (1) 85.4 (3)
99-00 42.5 (5) 90.2 (1)
00-01 41.9 (2) 88.9 (3)
01-02 42.6 (5) 90.5 (3)
02-03 42.7 (3) 90.4 (3)
03-04 40.9 (1)* 84.3 (1)*
04-05 42.6 (3) 88.4 (1)
05-06 43.3 (3) 88.8 (2)
06-07 44.3 (4) 90.1 (1)
07-08 44.4 (5) 90.6 (3)
08-09 45.3 (9) 93.3 (2)

* – NBA record for full 82-game schedule.
1998-99 was a strike-shortened season.

SequSpur

10-08-2009, 11:33 PM

dude...matt bonner was your starting center...i mean....uh hello!

lrrr

10-08-2009, 11:58 PM

Not to mention rebounding. This is what excites me most about this season. The Spurs could conceivably have 3 of the best rebounders (per 48min) in the league. That alone should ease the load on TD as he will no longer be the only above average rebounder on the team.

The Truth #6

10-09-2009, 12:06 AM

It's going to be real interesting to see the identity of the team form. Defense is their goal, yet they have so many more offensive options, Pop is going to have to open it up a little, I would imagine, especially if he is giving the reins to Parker, who is probably looking to run the break more and throw his patented 14 foot alley oops. Ha!

EricB

10-09-2009, 12:29 AM

dude...matt bonner was your starting center...i mean....uh hello!

Still waiting on who you would've started.

You havent answered that in about, ohhhh 9 months.

Chomag

10-09-2009, 12:56 AM

Guess that means we will not be seeing Bonner and Finley get any court time... SWEET! :toast

sprrs

10-09-2009, 01:11 AM

Still waiting on who you would've started.

You havent answered that in about, ohhhh 9 months.

Agree there really wasn't really another choice for starting center. Doesn't make Matt Bonner a good defender though.

Spurs Brazil

10-09-2009, 07:45 AM

Phenomanul

10-09-2009, 07:59 AM

Popovich brings stingy back (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/63823857.html)
Jeff McDonald

Year FGP (rank) PPG (rank)

97-98 41.1 (1) 88.5 (1)
98-99 40.2 (1) 85.4 (3)
99-00 42.5 (5) 90.2 (1)
00-01 41.9 (2) 88.9 (3)
01-02 42.6 (5) 90.5 (3)
02-03 42.7 (3) 90.4 (3)
03-04 40.9 (1)* 84.3 (1)*
04-05 42.6 (3) 88.4 (1)
05-06 43.3 (3) 88.8 (2)
06-07 44.3 (4) 90.1 (1)
07-08 44.4 (5) 90.6 (3)
08-09 45.3 (9) 93.3 (2)

* – NBA record for full 82-game schedule.
1998-99 was a strike-shortened season.

Coincidently those were the years Rasho was a Spur..... hmmmm.... :stirpot:

Bruno

10-09-2009, 08:17 AM

Trying to be again a great defensive team is great but it won't work if you don't have the players to do so.

For the moment the PF/C main rotation should be Duncan, McDyess, Bonner and Blair. Defensively, it's nowhere near great. Spurs also don't have the tools to be dominant defensively on the perimeter. All in all, Spurs will have a damn hard time to be the top defensive team in the league with their roster.

BG_Spurs_Fan

10-09-2009, 08:22 AM

Agree Bruno, but then offensively we're in a much better shape than in previous seasons, so we don't need to be as good defensively as we have been, just not as bad as last season. We deffinitely have the tools and personnel to do that.

Fabbs

10-09-2009, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by duncan228

Popovich brings stingy back
Jeff McDonald

Year FGP (rank) PPG (rank)

97-98 41.1 (1) 88.5 (1)
98-99 40.2 (1) 85.4 (3)
99-00 42.5 (5) 90.2 (1)
00-01 41.9 (2) 88.9 (3)
01-02 42.6 (5) 90.5 (3)
02-03 42.7 (3) 90.4 (3)
03-04 40.9 (1)* 84.3 (1)*
04-05 42.6 (3) 88.4 (1)
05-06 43.3 (3) 88.8 (2)
06-07 44.3 (4) 90.1 (1)
07-08 44.4 (5) 90.6 (3)
08-09 45.3 (9) 93.3 (2)

Coincidently those were the years Rasho was a Spur..... hmmmm.... :stirpot:
Don't forget the Man from Nazr and Frankie Elson before his eye socket got poked.

completely deck

10-09-2009, 09:48 AM

This upcoming season just got interesting in a whole new way.

ElNono

10-09-2009, 10:03 AM

I certainly hope Pop got his knack back for defense.
I he's serious about it, then that would actually almost guarantee that Finley, Bonner, Blair and Mason will see reduced minutes.

I really have to see this to believe it.

spurspokesman

10-09-2009, 10:43 AM

SA210

10-09-2009, 11:18 AM

When you lose Bruce your defense fades...

thispego

10-09-2009, 11:36 AM

Popovich brings stingy back

a ranking that rendered Popovich practically apoplectic.

Popovich has spent much of his time on the pulpit this preseason preaching

:lmao damn this guy sucks, i can't even take his articles seriously. who's son is he? why does he have this job? He's robbing us all of quality spurs journalism.

EricB

10-09-2009, 11:56 AM

When did Richard Jefferson become a bad perimeter defender?

Solid D

10-09-2009, 12:30 PM

I would hope Theo Ratliff gets to show his impact within the Spurs system, with good health over the course of the season being of great importance.

He's the best paint protector the Spurs have had in a long time.

polandprzem

10-09-2009, 12:36 PM

with McDyess and theo and Tim our positioning might be quite good when it comes to defense. also if pop will use more george with manu and RJ we can be enogh good defensivly

EricB

10-09-2009, 01:23 PM

Again, Richard Jefferson in the past has been a damn good perimeter defender and with Pop and others and the great system the Spurs have how does he not

A. Improve as a defender
B. not be Bruce Bowen, but someone that can be that good defensive wing that was lacking last year.

Spursox

10-09-2009, 05:55 PM

Does that mean they're bringing back the "YOU'LL READY FOR THIS" song? Gee, I hope so...That song really got everybody pumped, including the players....

TJastal

10-10-2009, 08:29 AM

Solid D

10-10-2009, 09:01 AM

I think Sequspur hit the nail on the head.

How the hell can u preach about defense when you start Matt Bonner over Antonio McDyess and Theo Ratliff.

Popovich can talk all he wants about becoming a better defensive team but when you trot out Matt Bonner to start off the game when you have two guys who are twice the defender he is your philosophy is going to fall on its head.

I'm not necessarily a proponent of Matt Bonner starting. He's not a strong defender.

You can't really look at the Olympiacos game and have an argument, though. Offensively, the Spurs space the floor pretty well when Matt is in there and the Spurs got off to a 20 point lead (29-9) before Matt was substituted out for Haislip. Bonner started the Houston game and scored 8 points in the first 3 1/2 minutes and although his D wasn't that great, you can't really say "Bonner to start off the game" has been that much of a "fall on your head experience."

It's Matt Bonner over the course of the game where your argument has more teeth.

I totally agree that McDyess and Ratliff are the Rx the Spurs needed to treat the Spurs' defensive ills.

TJastal

10-10-2009, 11:53 AM

I'm not necessarily a proponent of Matt Bonner starting. He's not a strong defender.

You can't really look at the Olympiacos game and have an argument, though. Offensively, the Spurs space the floor pretty well when Matt is in there and the Spurs got off to a 20 point lead (29-9) before Matt was substituted out for Haislip. Bonner started the Houston game and scored 8 points in the first 3 1/2 minutes and although his D wasn't that great, you can't really say "Bonner to start off the game" has been that much of a "fall on your head experience."

It's Matt Bonner over the course of the game where your argument has more teeth.

I totally agree that McDyess and Ratliff are the Rx the Spurs needed to treat the Spurs' defensive ills.

We saw this last year too. Bonner put up good numbers until approximately the all-star break (and a few really nice games like the celtics to his credit) but his shots started missing the mark and it got even uglier in the playoffs.

When Bonner is stroking it, he does make the spurs and especially Duncan that much more effective and difficult to contain offensively. Problem is, when he's not stroking his shot so well, he doesn't bring much else to the table and the spurs are fucked.

And... regardless of whether Bonner is stroking his shot well, its alot to pin on Mr Duncan to have to shoulder the entire responsibillity of protecting the rim himself, especially at this stage of his career.

I'd much rather have someone who can look after Tim's back and instead take a look in a new direction for offense, and to me that means getting Richard Jefferson more involved offensively.

You get the same result offensively, but with better defense and better insurance for Tim's knees and health.

TJastal

10-10-2009, 12:16 PM

I also think Richard Jefferson needs to have a more active role on this squad other than "defensive stopper" to be effective. If he's not an integral part of the offense I think he's going to become unsatisfied and unproductive.

And for the amount of money the spurs are paying him, I think he damn well should be putting up 18-20 on a nightly basis as well as playing solid defense.

SenorSpur

10-10-2009, 02:07 PM

I think Sequspur hit the nail on the head.

How the hell can u preach about defense when you start Matt Bonner over Antonio McDyess and Theo Ratliff.

Popovich can talk all he wants about becoming a better defensive team but when you trot out Matt Bonner to start off the game when you have two guys who are twice the defender he is your philosophy is going to fall on its head.

Bingo!

Last year, opposing teams literally went after Bonner on the defensive end time and again. Bonner hustles and is scrappy, but he lacks footspeed, is slow to react and does not possess the necessary athletic skills needed to defend most of the starting bigs in the NBA.

Pop is going to have to make a choice.

If he's more concerned with spreading the floor on offense, then he'll continue rolling out Bonner and again sacrifice a level of team defensive efficiency.

On the other hand, if he truly wants to improve this team defensively and set a tone on that end of the floor, he'll roll out McDyess instead.

Cant_Be_Faded

10-10-2009, 04:43 PM

When did Richard Jefferson become a bad perimeter defender?

Better yet, when did RJ become a difference making perimeter defender? Yet most here treat him as such.

TJastal

10-11-2009, 07:20 AM

Bingo!

Last year, opposing teams literally went after Bonner on the defensive end time and again. Bonner hustles and is scrappy, but he lacks footspeed, is slow to react and does not possess the necessary athletic skills needed to defend most of the starting bigs in the NBA.

Pop is going to have to make a choice.

If he's more concerned with spreading the floor on offense, then he'll continue rolling out Bonner and again sacrifice a level of team defensive efficiency.

On the other hand, if he truly wants to improve this team defensively and set a tone on that end of the floor, he'll roll out McDyess instead.

Good to see you again, SenorSpur. :) Nice concise summary there.

I'm still annoyed at the thought that Popovich might even be thinking about starting off the season with Matt Bonner as the spurs starting center. It was an experiement that, at the time last year seemed to make sense with what the spurs had to work with and it paid off in the short term but ultimately proved be more pressure than Bonner could handle, especially in the playoffs.

I'm going to really be dissappointed if Bonner is the starting center again tonight against Miami, because that would kind of indicate that Popovich has no clue what he's doing anymore.

Solid D

10-11-2009, 04:18 PM

I'm going to really be dissappointed if Bonner is the starting center again tonight against Miami, because that would kind of indicate that Popovich has no clue what he's doing anymore.

Why set yourself for this? If Pop starts Bonner, then you now believe Popovich has no clue what he's doing any more, and most wise folks here know that isn't true. It's pre-season.

TIMMYD!

10-11-2009, 05:24 PM

Solid D

10-11-2009, 11:07 PM

I'm going to really be dissappointed if Bonner is the starting center again tonight against Miami, because that would kind of indicate that Popovich has no clue what he's doing anymore.

So, Bonner does indeed start against Miami. Mahinmi starts in place of Duncan. Does this indicate to you that Pop has no clue what he's doing anymore?

TJastal

10-12-2009, 03:22 AM

So, Bonner does indeed start against Miami. Mahinmi starts in place of Duncan. Does this indicate to you that Pop has no clue what he's doing anymore?

Indeed I overreacted .. Its not that significant really since its preseason but after last year's meltdown where he started trying to transform Roger Mason Jr into a point guard and basically benched Hill for no apparent reason for um, like half the season.... well I'm paranoid.

But

I'm just going to chill out for the pre-season and give Popovich a chance to show what's up his sleeves for the reg season before I jump down his throat.

:soapbox

ElNono

10-12-2009, 06:35 AM

I hope Tony got an earful last night... Chalmers was all over him. I know it's preseason, but if Pop wants to bring the 'stingy' back then he needs to start early. We sucked defensively last season.

urunobili

10-12-2009, 08:55 AM

Can someone tell me how good of a game was it for Hairston?

Mel_13

10-12-2009, 09:13 AM

Indeed I overreacted .. Its not that significant really since its preseason but after last year's meltdown where he started trying to transform Roger Mason Jr into a point guard and basically benched Hill for no apparent reason for um, like half the season.... well I'm paranoid.

But

I'm just going to chill out for the pre-season and give Popovich a chance to show what's up his sleeves for the reg season before I jump down his throat.

:soapbox

last 14 games:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3438

sanman53

10-12-2009, 12:01 PM

We should hire the retired Bruce Bowen as an assistant coach.

Chomag

10-20-2009, 08:58 PM

HAHA. Sorry to have bummped this up but I thought I would just for some shnitz and giggles.

Funny stuff here.

Bruno

01-23-2010, 12:30 AM

“We tried to institute some new things the past couple of years, and they didn't really work out,” Popovich said. “So we're going back to the good old days when we tried to lead the league defensively.”

Trying to be again a great defensive team is great but it won't work if you don't have the players to do so.

For the moment the PF/C main rotation should be Duncan, McDyess, Bonner and Blair. Defensively, it's nowhere near great. Spurs also don't have the tools to be dominant defensively on the perimeter. All in all, Spurs will have a damn hard time to be the top defensive team in the league with their roster.

Bump.

It was one week after the start of the preseason and the defensive weaknesses (especially in the paint) was obvious even for a somewhat limited guy like me.

Pop and the FO deserve a huge :td on this one. Spurs' owner have allowed them to spend a lot of money and they have build a team that isn't balanced at all. Trade deadline is in 26 days, they better do something to fix that.

Obstructed_View

01-23-2010, 12:36 AM

Funny how the things that "didn't really work out" are the things he's trying now despite having the personnel to actually go back to the good old days.

HarlemHeat37

01-23-2010, 12:38 AM

DPG21920

01-23-2010, 12:39 AM

What I don't get is, is it Pop wanting to do something he can't and not being adaptive enough to change his philosophies, or is it the personnel not playing the way they should be?

Many of us were happy with the start to the off season, but a select few of us also said from the very beginning even though the moves were great, it would take another addition to have a true chance.

Obstructed_View

01-23-2010, 12:39 AM

Pop and the FO deserve a huge :td on this one. Spurs' owner have allowed them to spend a lot of money and they have build a team that isn't balanced at all. Trade deadline is in 26 days, they better do something to fix that.

They've got the personnel on the roster right now to fix that. The problem is that they aren't getting any PT.

HarlemHeat37

01-23-2010, 12:42 AM

Sean Cagney

01-23-2010, 12:43 AM

How is 04 a record in FG% when they allowed lower in 99? Do some just think because that is a shortened year that .402 FGP allowed does not exist or overlook it? That is FLAT OUT AMAZING D! GOOD LORD I miss that.

Obstructed_View

01-23-2010, 12:48 AM

How do you figure that OV?..I think the team can definitely play better D with less small ball, but how do you figure the perimeter D and 2nd big are going to get significantly better with the current players?..don't say Ian and Hairston, you know Pop isn't going to play them, they're too young and athletic..

I won't say it, but don't act like a potential solution isn't sitting right there. If you care about defense, and you want to go back to old school Spurs D you need a second shot blocker. Teach Ian to stand next to the basket with both hands straight up in the air and you've got Rasho X2. The only way to make up for the loss of Bowen's defense is with multiple guys that play very good individual defense, and one of those guys is in Austin.

HarlemHeat37

01-23-2010, 12:53 AM

I won't say it, but don't act like a potential solution isn't sitting right there. If you care about defense, and you want to go back to old school Spurs D you need a second shot blocker. Teach Ian to stand next to the basket with both hands straight up in the air and you've got Rasho X2. The only way to make up for the loss of Bowen's defense is with multiple guys that play very good individual defense, and one of those guys is in Austin.

You know I'm for it, I've been begging for it all year, but there's no hope for this..

Hairston couldn't even get a shot AFTER severely outplaying Bogans in preseason against the SAME competition..he couldn't even get a shot, he started the season off on the IR after that, even though he knew the system better than Bogans..

Ian must have punched Finley in practice or something, because Pop just won't even try that option..

Obstructed_View

01-23-2010, 12:56 AM

You know I'm for it, I've been begging for it all year, but there's no hope for this..

Hairston couldn't even get a shot AFTER severely outplaying Bogans in preseason against the SAME competition..he couldn't even get a shot, he started the season off on the IR after that, even though he knew the system better than Bogans..

Ian must have punched Finley in practice or something, because Pop just won't even try that option..

Then Pop's bringing Stupid back, and there's nothing that can be done about it. It's too bad. I actually stayed away from ST for the beginning of this season because Pop was making me so crazy, and I didn't figure it was worth making everyone read a hundred posts about how Blair should be starting, but I really thought he'd started to figure it out. He hasn't. I don't even think he's got a real assistant coach on his staff that can help him like in previous years, and there's obviously not a vet that can improve the team's toughness.

SenorSpur

01-24-2010, 12:42 AM

Methinks Pop and R.C. probably cast their bets on the wrong horses.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-24-2010, 03:19 AM

Bump.

It was one week after the start of the preseason and the defensive weaknesses (especially in the paint) was obvious even for a somewhat limited guy like me.

Pop and the FO deserve a huge :td on this one. Spurs' owner have allowed them to spend a lot of money and they have build a team that isn't balanced at all. Trade deadline is in 26 days, they better do something to fix that.

Actually the problem is this:

For the moment the PF/C main rotation should be Duncan, McDyess, Bonner and Blair. Defensively, it's nowhere near great. Spurs also don't have the tools to be dominant defensively on the perimeter. All in all, Spurs will have a damn hard time to be the top defensive team in the league with their roster.

That rotation would be okay.

However, our current C/PF rotation is Duncan, Blair, Jefferson, Mason/Manu.

And when Finley and Bonehead come back it will be Duncan, Bonner, Blair, Finley, Jefferson.

That shit ain't gonna cut it.

Aggie Hoopsfan

01-24-2010, 03:21 AM

You know I'm for it, I've been begging for it all year, but there's no hope for this..

Hairston couldn't even get a shot AFTER severely outplaying Bogans in preseason against the SAME competition..he couldn't even get a shot, he started the season off on the IR after that, even though he knew the system better than Bogans..

Ian must have punched Finley in practice or something, because Pop just won't even try that option..

It's not that, it's that he's embraced the Larry Brown school of player use. So, a "vet" like Bogans gets the run while a young guy like Hairston gets sent to Austin.

It's dumb, stupid, and altogether retarded. Welcome to Gregg Popovich, circa 2007-2009. Dude's been drinking too much wine with Nellie and Larry Brown in the off-season.

Chieflion

01-24-2010, 03:27 AM

Chomag

01-24-2010, 04:02 AM

admiralsnackbar

01-24-2010, 05:56 AM

It's not that, it's that he's embraced the Larry Brown school of player use. So, a "vet" like Bogans gets the run while a young guy like Hairston gets sent to Austin.

It's dumb, stupid, and altogether retarded. Welcome to Gregg Popovich, circa 2007-2009. Dude's been drinking too much wine with Nellie and Larry Brown in the off-season.

Beyond any frustration Pop may have with coaching youth, some blame can be laid at the feet of players who haven't learned how to defend without fouling over the course of a few years of coaching and on-and-off scrimmage; and referees, who will reflexively whistle anything a rook or a nobody does to established players. Wing players don't have to deal with this as much as bigs, who find themselves mixed up in more physical play.

When you're looking at a player and realizing he's very possibly going to cost you 8-12 points a game at the stripe because he'll never get a fair call, you have to ask yourself whether you believe that player is going to give the team enough back with his play to overcome that deficit. In the case of Blair, I believe his boarding and scoring obviously alleviate the problems caused by his youth and lack of "referee respect."

Ian, on the other hand, was over-playing defense and fouling out even during the summer league, with it's generous foul allowances. That means he needs to give you at least a 12 pt night every time to cover his ass in addition to quantitatively making the team better through stops and boards, which is a tall order for most bigs. If the kid is already foul-prone and will almost certainly get no calls going his way, it's hard to justify giving him floor time.

Bruno

01-24-2010, 06:09 AM

That rotation would be okay.

However, our current C/PF rotation is Duncan, Blair, Jefferson, Mason/Manu.

And when Finley and Bonehead come back it will be Duncan, Bonner, Blair, Finley, Jefferson.

That shit ain't gonna cut it.

Even if Pop played way less small ball, Spurs PF/C rotation wouldn't be "okay" defensive wise.

I agree with you that Pop has played too much small ball lately and that it has worsen the situation but it's only a part of the problem. The central point is that Spurs seriously lack of defensive quality at PF/C. In fact, the overuse of small ball could even be a consequence of this lack of quality with Pop finding that going small is Spurs' current best option to hide that weakness.

admiralsnackbar

01-24-2010, 06:12 AM

This. Larry Brown is still continuing to waste his young talent. I like how his team has played this season but D.J Augustin has gone down to irrelevancy, lottery pick Gerald Henderson is nowhere to be found. He threw Darko Milicic into the shithouse in 2004. Pop is following his route, which is why Pop and Brown should never be coaching a rebuilding team.

If any of the player you mentioned had gone on to shine in the league, you might have a point, but given they haven't... I'm inclined to say you don't.

A coach is always going to put the team he thinks can win on the floor, and if the players you mentioned don't figure into that, it might be worthwhile to ask why they find themselves in that predicament. Remember when people were furiously calling for Pop to Free Beno? Remember, then, how Detroit completely exposed Beno's poor decision-making in 2005? There was a reason he rode the pine so long.

I think Bruno's observations about our team's lack of balance in personnel are dead-on and need to be addressed, but making adjustments based on opinions about how good X young player is simply because we know very little about his abilities isn't a solution.

Think about it: we paid good money for Nazr and Elson, both of whom were unexceptional centers. If we're now looking to potentially move Ian (and almost certainly willing to part with him given we didn't pick up his option), there must be a reason. Pops Mensa-Whatsisnuts had a good game for us once, too. Now he plays in Russia, I think.

hsxvvd

01-24-2010, 06:13 AM

I never considered RJ much of a defender and was very suprised to hear Pop talking about his "defense" as the reason for bringing him here.

In the past we've had role players who were either good defenders or had high basketball IQs, Jefferson, even as a role player, has shown neither.

I also think we jumped the gun on trading our expiring contracts, since the trade, the value of expiring contracts has seemed to rise throughout the league. If we really wanted to acquire an expensive/high talent contract in exchange for our expirings, guys like Iguodala, Kevin Martin, David West, all seem available for the right price.

TJastal

01-24-2010, 08:13 AM

Even if Pop played way less small ball, Spurs PF/C rotation wouldn't be "okay" defensive wise.

I agree with you that Pop has played too much small ball lately and that it has worsen the situation but it's only a part of the problem. The central point is that Spurs seriously lack of defensive quality at PF/C. In fact, the overuse of small ball could even be a consequence of this lack of quality with Pop finding that going small is Spurs' current best option to hide that weakness.

The problem is Pop won't hardly give these guys a chance (Mahinmi / Ratliff). Mahinmi has been injured the past few years and has very little experience so I could see an excuse there. But Ratliff? Why isn't Pop using him regularily?

Supergirl

01-24-2010, 09:08 AM

interesting that we set a league record in the year that we DIDN'T win a title.

Chieflion

01-24-2010, 09:42 AM

If any of the player you mentioned had gone on to shine in the league, you might have a point, but given they haven't... I'm inclined to say you don't.

A coach is always going to put the team he thinks can win on the floor, and if the players you mentioned don't figure into that, it might be worthwhile to ask why they find themselves in that predicament. Remember when people were furiously calling for Pop to Free Beno? Remember, then, how Detroit completely exposed Beno's poor decision-making in 2005? There was a reason he rode the pine so long.

I think Bruno's observations about our team's lack of balance in personnel are dead-on and need to be addressed, but making adjustments based on opinions about how good X young player is simply because we know very little about his abilities isn't a solution.

Think about it: we paid good money for Nazr and Elson, both of whom were unexceptional centers. If we're now looking to potentially move Ian (and almost certainly willing to part with him given we didn't pick up his option), there must be a reason. Pops Mensa-Whatsisnuts had a good game for us once, too. Now he plays in Russia, I think.
I am talking about a destroyed career in Darko here, he killed his confidence and trust in the NBA. His attitude might suck but both coaches don't even give their young players a chance. I am sure Henderson has something to give, instead Brown plays Derrick Brown, it is not as if the shooting guard spot is filled with starter calibre players for Henderson who is still a rookie. D.J Augustin has been a solid point guard last season and should have more playing time. On Beno, he went on to prosper with the Kings, now a very good back-up, did Pop destroy him or not, we may never find out. Pop threw Beno into the fire in 2005 and it was disastrous, no doubt, but was it because of the lack of experience? Did Pop screw Beno up in 2005, he sure is part of it. Nazr was traded here to fill a void so the Spurs did not sign them. I am sure that Ian's option got declined for the Spurs to cut the luxury tax next season or either they are certain Splitter is coming over and there was no need for the Spurs to keep him.

admiralsnackbar

01-24-2010, 09:55 AM

I am sure that Ian's option got declined for the Spurs to cut the luxury tax next season or either they are certain Splitter is coming over and there was no need for the Spurs to keep him.

If all they wanted to do was cut tax, they have several players who come off the books next year earning far more than Ian would. And with Hairston likely returning as a cheap Fin replacement, none of that cap space would even have to be spent on a back-up wing.

Chieflion

01-24-2010, 10:03 AM

If all they wanted to do was cut tax, they have several players who come off the books next year earning far more than Ian would. And with Hairston likely returning as a cheap Fin replacement, none of that cap space would even have to be spent on a back-up wing.
You still have to re-sign Manu and possibly Mason to a larger contract. The Spurs may also want to keep Bogans, seriously, none of us are going to know what happens in the future so it is best to assume nothing is in the works and the Spurs just wanted to cut tax and possibly get a roster spot free for their 1st round pick.

polandprzem

01-24-2010, 10:27 AM

Even if Pop played way less small ball, Spurs PF/C rotation wouldn't be "okay" defensive wise.

I agree with you that Pop has played too much small ball lately and that it has worsen the situation but it's only a part of the problem. The central point is that Spurs seriously lack of defensive quality at PF/C. In fact, the overuse of small ball could even be a consequence of this lack of quality with Pop finding that going small is Spurs' current best option to hide that weakness.

there is when comes to think that maybe going for Gortat was not a bad idea

boutons_deux

01-24-2010, 10:40 AM

Defense again? IBIWISI

admiralsnackbar

01-24-2010, 11:01 AM

You still have to re-sign Manu and possibly Mason to a larger contract. The Spurs may also want to keep Bogans, seriously, none of us are going to know what happens in the future so it is best to assume nothing is in the works and the Spurs just wanted to cut tax and possibly get a roster spot free for their 1st round pick.

So your logic is, nobody knows what the front office is doing, so let's just assume Chieflion is right? :lol

Chieflion

01-24-2010, 11:03 AM

So your logic is, nobody knows what the front office is doing, so let's just assume Chieflion is right? :lol
You seem to think you are always correct, I was just giving a possibility. And you just want to be a douchebag.

admiralsnackbar

01-24-2010, 11:18 AM

You seem to think you are always correct, I was just giving a possibility. And you just want to be a douchebag.

So you're saying I unfairly interpreted your last post? You really need to not take it so personally when somebody disagrees with you, kiddo.

I'm giving the FO the benefit of the doubt and explaining my reasons for having what opinions I possess -- opinions I'm willing to retire if you make a good point. You're the one who's been advocating for players who haven't demonstrated their utility (did you watch Ian in SL? Are you really willing to attribute all his short-comings to rust?) and resting on platitudes about Pop and Brown's reluctance towards playing rooks despite evidence to the contrary in Hill last season and Blair in this one.

I know it's frustrating to be a fan right now, but thinking that any mystery player in our wings only needs a little PT to demonstrate his Scola-like prowess is pie in the sky and you know it. And likewise, thinking that someone like Darko is the victim of cruel coaching doesn't excuse Darko's lackluster play. You can blame the coaches for calling bad plays or not reacting to their opponents' strategy, but in the end, the players have to execute their roles, and Darko has proven he's not really up to it.

Indazone

01-24-2010, 11:23 AM

Shane Battier is impressed with Spurs Defense :tu

Chieflion

01-24-2010, 11:28 AM

So you're saying I unfairly interpreted your last post? You really need to not take it so personally when somebody disagrees with you, kiddo.

I'm giving the FO the benefit of the doubt and explaining my reasons for having what opinions I possess -- opinions I'm willing to retire if you make a good point. You're the one who's been advocating for players who haven't demonstrated their utility (did you watch Ian in SL? Are you really willing to attribute all his short-comings to rust?) and resting on platitudes about Pop and Brown's reluctance towards playing rooks despite evidence to the contrary in Hill last season and Blair in this one.

I know it's frustrating to be a fan right now, but thinking that any mystery player in our wings only needs a little PT to demonstrate his Scola-like prowess is pie in the sky and you know it. And likewise, thinking that someone like Darko is the victim of cruel coaching doesn't excuse Darko's lackluster play. You can blame the coaches for calling bad plays or not reacting to their opponents' strategy, but in the end, the players have to execute their roles, and Darko has proven he's not really up to it.
I watched some of him. He looked different when he played against NBA competition as opposed to summer league, showing his work ethic. I believe Ian worked on his game. You may want to give the front office the benefit of the doubt. Go ahead. History tells me Hill's minutes got slashed towards the end of the season and Pop was willing to give more playing time to Mason at back-up PG and refused to play him in the first four games of the playoffs. If Blair's situation was as good as you think it is, why do you think the percentage of small ball increased? Blair should be getting a few extra minutes.

exstatic

01-24-2010, 11:31 AM

:lmao @ Pop = LB

On an LB coached team, there would be no George Hill or DeJuan Blair in the rotation.

Harry Callahan

01-24-2010, 11:42 AM

The lack of defense against an above average Houston team was a joke. These guys better get some things fixed if they want to stay out of the lottery..

EricB

01-24-2010, 12:30 PM

:lmao @ Pop = LB

On an LB coached team, there would be no George Hill or DeJuan Blair in the rotation.

:lol but he isn't running 5 rookies out at the same time!!!

Obstructed_View

01-24-2010, 12:52 PM

:lol but he isn't running 5 rookies out at the same time!!!

Playing a guy who was drafted in 2005 = running five rookies out at the same time

And you wonder why I call you "stupid". :lol