30 brave Republican Senators stand by their conservative principles...

[elbamba]

Due to the sensationalism, surely. A women using arbitration to determine monetary payment due to sexual harassment doesn't have nearly the same emotional impact as a woman who was raped by multiple members of the company.

Sensationalism is not recognized under the law, nor should it be. Certainly, if I did not have legal experience, I would be as outraged as everyone else here. However, I know the importance of an arbitration clause. I have won big as a plaintiff's attorney through arbitration multiple times. I have had satisfied parties settle their differences prior to going to arbitration. I know that it is sufficient to resolve disputes and treat all parties fairly. Yes, there are situations where the arbitration prejudices the corporation, however, that is rarely the case as most people use independent arbitrators.

My point is simple. There is no need for an amendment when the federal government can incorporate language banning arbitration clauses. The amendment is dangerous in that it seeks to invalidate potentially millions of contracts that are perfectly valid today. I am very hesitent to allow the government to start redoing and redrafting contracts. If it has a problem with Haliburton, breach its contract and settle its breach, then don't bother contracting with them in the future.

[Wild Cobra]

WC demands better evidence. Since SpursTalk posters cannot offer any direct physical evidence -- or proof beyond a reasonable doubt -- WC will not be swayed.

I want better evidence than what is given.

On what grounds is she suing Halliburton? What crime did they commit? Did they do anything to stop her from filing charges against the perpetrators?

What did they do to her? That's why I ask Cry Havoc what evidence he has that we don't.

[Winehole23]

No need to worry about the countless contracts that are presently valid today that would be the source of litigation over the changes made by the amendment.No need indeed. That's what lawyers are for.

More work for the lawyers. What a tragedy.

[LnGrrrR]

Sensationalism is not recognized under the law, nor should it be.

Hey, you asked why this was being covered moreso than a normal case. I gave the obvious answer. :)


My point is simple. There is no need for an amendment when the federal government can incorporate language banning arbitration clauses.

But they don't wish to ban all arbitration causes, merely those dealing with the above areas (sexual harrasment, etc etc)


The amendment is dangerous in that it seeks to invalidate potentially millions of contracts that are perfectly valid today. I am very hesitent to allow the government to start redoing and redrafting contracts. If it has a problem with Haliburton, breach its contract and settle its breach, then don't bother contracting with them in the future.

Well, the defense bill must be signed each year, so those contracts are renewed annually, in a sense. It wouldn't invalidate current contracts, surely, but merely require that annual funding of these corporations included the arbitration clause stipulation in the next annual contract.

Your proposal of merely breaching the contract with Halliburton doesn't solve the underlying issue, either, as that would still allow other companies to theoretically perform the same actions.

[LnGrrrR]

On what grounds is she suing Halliburton? What crime did they commit? Did they do anything to stop her from filing charges against the perpetrators?

Per the newspapers, Halliburton tried to deny her medical care, as well as tried to cover up the incident. Of course, you and I won't know until the evidence comes out in court.


What did they do to her? That's why I ask Cry Havoc what evidence he has that we don't.

Obviously, we don't have firsthand evidence. We're relying on the news as a source, due to the fact that it'd be pretty impossible to get such firsthand evidence.

[Wild Cobra]

Per the newspapers, Halliburton tried to deny her medical care, as well as tried to cover up the incident. Of course, you and I won't know until the evidence comes out in court.
Hmmm... So a CEO at Halliburton made sure she was denied medical care, or was in a low level management employee?

Obviously, we don't have firsthand evidence. We're relying on the news as a source, due to the fact that it'd be pretty impossible to get such firsthand evidence.
Exactly. How often do they paint the correct picture?

[Winehole23]

My point is simple. There is no need for an amendment when the federal government can incorporate language banning arbitration clauses.Not needful? No longer criminal.

Be careful not to kick up a big cloud of dust, back-pedalling so fast. :lol


The amendment is dangerous in that it seeks to invalidate potentially millions of contracts that are perfectly valid today. Terms would have to be rewritten to protect rape victims. What a hassle.

If the companies are unwilling to negotiate terms, they needn't sign the contracts.


I am very hesitent to allow the government to start redoing and redrafting contracts. The state is soveriegn. It can change its mind, and its creatures -- including corporations -- will from time to time submit to the official changes in the will of the people, i.e., US Statutes, in their own interest. Or take their business elsewhere.


If it has a problem with Haliburton, breach its contract and settle its breach, then don't bother contracting with them in the future.Eventually, that could happen.

If Halliburton is so hard done by, why doesn't Halliburton breach, settle and be done with it?

[ChumpDumper]

Hmmm... So a CEO at Halliburton made sure she was denied medical care, or was in a low level management employee?Doesn't matter.

[boutons_deux]

an employee can waive the right not to be raped by colleagues?

WC ALWAYS comes down on the side of any institution when it's crushing the individual.

[Wild Cobra]

an employee can waive the right not to be raped by colleagues?

WC ALWAYS comes down on the side of any institution when it's crushing the individual.
No, it's that individuals are who took illegal actions against her. Not the corporation.

Who is keeping her from legal recourse against them? Is anyone?

[Winehole23]

Halliburton seeking to prevent Ms. Jones from seeking medical attention cuts no ice with you, WC?

[PixelPusher]

Halliburton seeking to prevent Ms. Jones from seeking medical attention cuts no ice with you, WC?

or that the rape kit "disappeared" after it was handed over to KBR security, only to reappear years later missing photographs and doctors notes.

[Winehole23]

or that the rape kit "disappeared" after it was handed over to KBR security, only to reappear years later missing photographs and doctors notes.If true, this could be plausibly construed as covering up evidence of gang rape committed by their own employees.

[Winehole23]

BTW, PixelP:

Do you know if the rape kit and the results of investigation were disclosed before, well before or after the statutes expired on the rape?

If the company was hiding relevant evidence -- for how long, PP? -- how can the offered arbitration possibly be called fair to both parties?

[Winehole23]

...

[PixelPusher]

BTW, PixelP:

Do you know if the rape kit and the results of investigation were disclosed before, well before or after the statutes expired on the rape?

If the company was hiding relevant evidence -- for how long, PP? -- how can the offered arbitration possibly be called fair to both parties?

I wasn't aware that any "statutes were about to expire", so I can't speak to "running out the clock", but at the very least, they took advantage of their jurisdiction free status (curtousy of the Bush Adnministration) to keep the buck perpetually passed.



http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4027734&page=1&page=1

DOJ Shuns Hearing on Halliburton/KBR Rape Cases
Former Halliburton/KBR Employee Recounts for Congress How She Was Gang-Raped in Iraq
By MADDY SAUER
Dec. 19, 2007

The Department of Justice refused to send a representative to answer questions from Congress today on the investigations into allegations of rape and sexual assault on female American contractors.

"I'm embarrassed that the Department of Justice can't even come forward," said the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee John Conyers, D-Mich.

"This is an absolute disgrace," said Conyers. "The least we could do is have people from the Department of Justice and the Defense over here talking about how we're going to straighten out the system right away."

Among the witnesses who testified today was Jamie Leigh Jones, who appeared on "20/20" last week.

Jones, now 23, says that after she'd been raped by multiple assailants in her room at a KBR camp in the Green Zone, she was warned by company officials that if she left Iraq for medical treatment, she'd be out of a job.

To date there has been no prosecution of the men who Jones says gang-raped her.

Jones' congressman, Ted Poe, R-Texas, also testified at the hearing and told the committee how he has not been given any answers as to the status of the investigation by DOJ or the State Department.

"The Department of Justice has not informed Jamie or me of the status of a criminal investigation against her rapist if any investigation exists," Poe said today. "It is interesting to note that the Department of Justice has thousands of lawyers but not one from the barrage of lawyers is here to tell us what if anything they are doing. Their absence and silence speaks volumes about the hidden crimes in Iraq. Their attitude seems to be one of blissful indifference to American workers in Iraq," said Poe.

Jones told Congress that it wasn't until after she was interviewed by "20/20," that an assistant U.S. attorney in Florida questioned her about her case.

"I asked the AUSA, 'Where should I refer victims to contact me?' and she responded, 'Don't refer them to my office, but you may want to refer them to the office of victims of crime,'" Jones recounted for Congress today.

But the Department of Justice Crime Victims office, in a letter to Jamie's lawyer, had already said it had closed out her complaint claiming it did not have jurisdiction.

The Department of Justice, following the hearing, said today that the department is "investigating this matter" but would not elaborate.

Jones has now filed a lawsuit against Halliburton and KBR.

KBR says that in the case of Jones they were quick to offer her support and assistance.

Halliburton says it is improperly named the lawsuit.

[Winehole23]

How is that equitable and fair to Ms. Jones, elbamba?

Halliburton's generous and humane offer of arbitration suddenly doesn't look so generous or humane in light of the foregoing.

[PixelPusher]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=3977702&page=2

Over two years later, the Justice Department has brought no criminal charges in the matter. In fact, ABC News could not confirm any federal agency was investigating the case.

Legal experts say Jones' alleged assailants will likely never face a judge and jury, due to an enormous loophole that has effectively left contractors in Iraq beyond the reach of United States law.

"It's very troubling," said Dean John Hutson of the Franklin Pierce Law Center. "The way the law presently stands, I would say that they don't have, at least in the criminal system, the opportunity for justice."

Congressman Poe says neither the departments of State nor Justice will give him answers on the status of the Jones investigation.

Yeah...but the Franken amendment is the only criminality you see going on here, right Elbama?

[elbamba]

How is that equitable and fair to Ms. Jones, elbamba?

Halliburton's generous and humane offer of arbitration suddenly doesn't look so generous or humane in light of the foregoing.

This is not equitable. I am equally outraged if the DOJ does nothing about this. However, this is not a Haliburton issue, this is a department of justice issue. Criminally speaking someone needs to answer for their crimes.

[z0sa]

all i wanna know is which dumbass confessed, and why isn't he ratting out his friends as part of some sort of bargain.

[elbamba]

Yeah...but the Franken amendment is the only criminality you see going on here, right Elbama?

Not at all, If the evidence adds up to a crime being committed I am all in favor of prosecuting. I think that the DOJ has screwed the pouch on this one. Sadly, Franken's amendment doesn't go to criminal issues anyway...it only addresses arbitration clauses.

Here is another issue. I am willing to bet that there is a provision in the contract that prohibits the use of a jury. I do not think that Franken's amendmend addresses this question, I could certainly be wrong. So if she gets her day in court but waives the right of a jury trial then the case is tried to a judge alone and she will more then likely not get the punitive damages that she seeks. Perhaps there should be equal outrage over contracts that prohibit the use of juries.

[LnGrrrR]

This is not equitable. I am equally outraged if the DOJ does nothing about this. However, this is not a Haliburton issue, this is a department of justice issue. Criminally speaking someone needs to answer for their crimes.

And what if DOJ chose not to pursue this case? They are within their rights to refuse to handle the case, aren't they?

[Winehole23]

Not at all, If the evidence adds up to a crime being committed I am all in favor of prosecuting. I think that the DOJ has screwed the pouch on this one. Sadly, Franken's amendment doesn't go to criminal issues anyway...it only addresses arbitration clauses.This is illegal how? I forgot.


Here is another issue. I am willing to bet that there is a provision in the contract that prohibits the use of a jury. I think it's fun to speculate, too. :tu


I do not think that Franken's amendmend addresses this question, I could certainly be wrong. So if she gets her day in court but waives the right of a jury trial then the case is tried to a judge alone and she will more then likely not get the punitive damages that she seeks. Perhaps there should be equal outrage over contracts that prohibit the use of juries.Perhaps so. I only just became aware of it myself, so the outrage hasn't set in yet.

So thanks for alerting me. I was unaware of this eventuality. I hope I will be able simulate my outrage credibly next time, so as not to disappoint you

[Winehole23]

And what if DOJ chose not to pursue this case? They are within their rights to refuse to handle the case, aren't they?If the the DOJ hasn't said what it is doing or not doing, maybe there's nothing it can do.

Maybe Ms. Jones really did fall into a legal black hole, and arbitration really was her only chance at a prompt hearing.

[LnGrrrR]

If the the DOJ hasn't said what it is doing or not doing, maybe there's nothing it can do.

Maybe Ms. Jones really did fall into a legal black hole, and arbitration really was her only chance at a prompt hearing.

What I'm saying is, doesn't the DOJ have the right to discriminate on which cases it takes? Couldn't they theoretically choose not to press charges, or not hear the case at all?

[Winehole23]

What I'm saying is, doesn't the DOJ have the right to discriminate on which cases it takes? Couldn't they theoretically choose not to press charges, or not hear the case at all?Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Winehole23]

That might be what eventually happens in this case.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Anyone with the slighest amount of political savvy should be able to ruin any of the 30 incumbent Republican senators who voted against this.

They can flat out air commercials that have pictures of them and the words "I support rape" and could get away with it.

[Winehole23]

The hissy fit provoked thereby would be dire, but the place the 30 GOP Senators chose to make a stand was odd, to say the least.

[LnGrrrR]

So, let's see if I have the facts straight.

1) Woman gangraped

2) Woman tries to sue

3) Woman possibly can't sue because of arbitration clause

4) DOJ might not prosecute

5) ?????

6) Justice


That's about right, isn't it?

[Cry Havoc]

So, let's see if I have the facts straight.

1) Woman gangraped

2) Woman tries to sue

3) Woman possibly can't sue because of arbitration clause

4) DOJ might not prosecute

5) ?????

6) Justice


That's about right, isn't it?

I believe 5) would be "Republicans rush to defend Haliburton and leave huge legal loophole in place for this to happen again".

This is actually one of the most depressing things I've ever read as an American citizen. I guess the "poor little multibillion dollar corporation with tens to hundreds of high paid attorneys" needs a lot of help from the GOP to protect itself.

This entire story makes me sick to my stomach.

[PixelPusher]

So, let's see if I have the facts straight.

1) Woman gangraped

2) Woman tries to sue

3) Woman possibly can't sue because of arbitration clause

4) DOJ might not prosecute

5) ?????

6) Justice


That's about right, isn't it?

between 1 and 2, you need:

Woman can't call police because she's in Iraq, working for a defense contractor that has legal immunity.

[Winehole23]

The possibility of 6) hinges very much on 5) IMO.

At a minimum that would involve DOJ growing a spine and publicly denouncing the various abuses dealt to Ms. Jones, if it cannot punish them as crimes.

[Winehole23]

This isn't a Halliburton deal.


Orly? (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/washington/23electrocute.html?ref=world) See this. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=4489783&page=1) And this (http://www.theage.com.au/news/iraq/halliburton-accused-of-1bn-overcharge/2005/06/28/1119724608475.html). This (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/12/politics/main588216.shtml) too. War risk surcharge. (http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2006/08/halliburton-contractor-settles-overcharging-suit) Debt peonage (http://crime.suite101.com/article.cfm/modern_day_slavery). Human trafficking (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Halliburton_contractor_sued_for_human_trafficking_ 0828.html). Substandard food. (http://www.legalradar.com/2008/12/halliburton-subsidary-kbr-accused-of-supplying-substandard-food-to-us-forces-in-iraq-and-in-other-co.html) Unsafe water. (http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Tainted_water_may_have_sickened_soldiers_in_Iraq_r eport_999.html) Covering up gang rape (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=3977702&page=3). Reconsider, elbamba?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118120&highlight=slavery+halliburton

[z0sa]

Prison gang rape is a way worse problem.

[z0sa]

Supposedly 20% of prison inmates report being sexually abused, and the problem is worse in county lockups.

[z0sa]

One of the founders of Stop Prison Rape (now called something else) got gang raped 60 times in a 2 day period. Needless to say, he required rectal reconstruction.

[Winehole23]

Prison gang rape is a way worse problem.Sure. Perhaps that deserves its own thread, z0sa. This case does at least show what sort of thing can happen when contractors are given *too broad* immunity to US law.

Bottom line, making arbitration optional for certain very heinous and violent crimes like rape, does not seem an undue burden to commerce, unless rape is very common.

[z0sa]

Perhaps that deserves its own thread, but this case does at least show what sort of thing can happen when contractors are given immunity to US law.

Bottom line, making arbitration optional for certain very heinous and violent crimes like rape, does not seem an undue burden to commerce, unless rape is very common.

My point is that much worse things occur concerning rape than this one. I'm not defending the Republican senators, quite the opposite. A huge injustice occurs everyday (prison rape), which is the most demeaning and torturous existence I can think of. Some normal guy busted for pot being a gangmember's bitch and traded for cigarettes and ultimately dying of AIDS is commonplace because of our Justice system and these same politicians who choose to focus on their next campaign rather than the overload of fixable problems.

[Winehole23]

Some normal guy busted for pot being a gangmember's bitch and traded for cigarettes and ultimately dying of AIDS is commonplace because of our Justice system and these same politicians who choose to focus on their next campaign rather than the overload of fixable problems.The tuff on crime handshake with the prison-industrial-courthouse complex is very expensive in the long term; the fiscal condition of the states -- even Texas -- is starting to overrun law-and-order platitudes. It just costs too much to throw everybody you don't like in prison.

[z0sa]

The tuff on crime handshake with the prison-industrial-courthouse complex is very expensive in the long term; the fiscal condition of the states -- even Texas -- is starting to overrun law-and-order platitudes. It just costs too much to throw everybody you don't like in prison.

Texas has the worst rate of prison rape according to inmates, yet reports the least.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Texas has the worst rate of prison rape according to inmates, yet reports the least.

Yes! We're number 1 in uninsured people and prison rape!!! But we did pass tort reform!

[Winehole23]

Texas has the worst rate of prison rape according to inmates, yet reports the least.I find that believable.

Prison rape deserves it's own thread IMO. Do you have any links handy, z0sa?

[z0sa]

And the worst injustice of all - due to a supreme lack of operating staff and therefore, corroborative evidence, the DoJ essentially denies there is a problem:


According to the study conducted by the United States Department of Justice for the year 2006, there were 2,205 allegations of inmate-on-inmate nonconsensual sexual acts reported, total, in the U.S. prison system. 262 of the allegations were substantiated.[4]

Just google it, Winehole23.

Imagine being forced into sexual slavery everyday, and being forced into talking in a high pitch and being forced into wearing a mixture of vaseline and koolaid from the commisary for lipstick.

[Winehole23]

Well, you brought it up. Are you averse to sharing?

After all, it's your hobby horse, not mine.

[z0sa]

Well, you brought it up. Are you averse to sharing?

It's simply gathered information. I encourage everyone to take a long, good look into it because it's frightening. The SPR guy who got raped 60 times in 2 days? He was arrested for a peaceful quaker demonstration at the White House.

IE, this could happen to you.


After all, it's your hobby horse, not mine.

Hobby horse? really?

[Winehole23]

No offense intended,z0sa. You're the one who keeps pushing it forward, is all.

[z0sa]

No offense intended,z0sa. You're the one who keeps pushing it forward, is all.

Well its because I find these types of topics so ridiculously futile. Big Corporation fucks you in your contract, then actually fucks you, and you want to act like you never signed said contract, and out of pity and horror a movement in the USG wants to pass legislature to avert this happening again and those brave money grubbers stand up against that, blah blah blah

All this shit about one rape case, while everyday hundreds of people are going through far more damaging and demeaning and horrifying rituals of rape, because it is over and over day after day, and there's actually a clause in the consitution protecting them from it (cruel and unusual punishment), no additional legislature needed.

the DoJ hides prison rape from the world and denies those victims medical and psychological support every day, why does it surprise anyone other powerful entities will attempt to do the same...

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.w3bbo.com/forums/Hijack-In_progress.jpg

[Winehole23]

z0sa would apparently rather kill this thread than enlighten us in one he posts himself.

I'm ok with that.

[LnGrrrR]

Hey, what better way to stop prison rape than to cynically dismiss a different example of gang rape?

I think that the capability to hold TWO political causes at the same time is vastly underreported.

[z0sa]

Hey, what better way to stop prison rape than to cynically dismiss a different example of gang rape?

300 replies have been made, the main points of contention have been argued, and it's a non issue anyway. Whether you choose to accept it or not, tons of people get gang raped against their will all the time.


I think that the capability to hold TWO political causes at the same time is vastly underreported.

:rolleyes

[z0sa]

z0sa would apparently rather kill this thread than enlighten us in one he posts himself.

I'm ok with that.

I feel pity for whatever her name is. I don't want anyone to get gang raped. That said, it goes unstopped every day in our prisons and our prisoners didn't sign their rights away. At least, their right to be excluded from cruel and unusual punishment (and they didn't sign them away, though one could construe they did by committing crime)

[Winehole23]

300 replies have been made, the main points of contention have been argued, and it's a non issue anyway. Whether you choose to accept it or not, tons of people get gang raped against their will all the time.Who denied it? I'm pretty sure you and me are already in basic agreement about how heinous prison rape is.

Personally, the blase attitude of citizens toward prison rape is almost as shocking to me. People don't deserve to be raped, just because they went to prison. Making prisoners civilly dead, fining and imprisoning them -- in Texas, sometimes, killing them -- ought to be punishment enough.



I doubt the visibility of this issue is much enhanced by posting it at the end of a thread that is already so played-out.

[z0sa]

Who denied it? I'm pretty sure you and me are already in basic agreement about how heinous prison rape is.

Note I said 'accept.' Many people choose to ignore the issue completely, and make jokes out of it. Or illegitimately make such a remark like was made, that highlighting prison rape is much more of an issue than this bullshit somehow means I am attempting to "down one and up the other" ... like I said, that girl didn't deserve to get gangraped, but crying about the lack of justice and making the headlines is an abomination of that same justice, because there's been tens of thousands of equally normal people in the same situation -gangraped without justice - and these people didn't sign their right to a jury away. These people also were raped numerous, even uncountable times, and contracted STDs which ruined their lives, besides the unthinkable psychological distress ..


I doubt the visibility of this issue is much enhanced by posting it at the end of a thread that is already so played-out.

I agree, but visibility of the issue isn't the entire reason I started posting about prison rape. It's because this case of gang rape is viewed as horrifying and worthy of our Legislative branch arguing and passing specific legislature over, while a much more prevalent and horrifying issue that is somewhat easily fixable is ignored by everyone .. those same leaders you and I elect to protect us from these things, ignore quite possibly the worst form of torture known to man.

[clambake]

we'll just classify all prisoners as enemy combatants.

[Winehole23]

I agree, but visibility of the issue isn't the entire reason I started posting about prison rape. It's because this case of gang rape is viewed as horrifying and worthy of arguing and passing legislature over, while a much more prevalent and horrifying issue that is somewhat easily fixable is ignored by everyone ..I will agree prison rape is ignored, and that the prevalence of the problem -- as well as its quotidian frequency -- should put it somewhat higher on our moral radar than solitary occurrences of rape.

For better and for worse, people like Ms. Jones get all the oxygen and receive the lion's share of concern.

[Winehole23]

...somewhat easily fixable...Amplify?

The italicized weasel word does not inspire confidence IMO.

[z0sa]

Amplify?

The italicized weasel word does not inspire confidence IMO.

The fact prison rape occurs so frequently should naturally lead to a complete lack of confidence in our government ... it's easily fixable if we actually worked to update our delapidated prisons with many more cameras and many more better trained personnel.. personnel that was specifically instructed to alert higher positions about possible sexual predators and defend the prisoners with a purpose against rape .. outside of being rape central and overcrowded, there's not much else to be expected, you ARE a criminal being punished after all ... but that punishment shouldn't entail being unable to escape your aggressor or even get help after repeatedly being raped. And the psychological problems of prison rape are hugely eminent - these victims IMO are mostly petty criminals, lacking the knowledge, know how or physical attributes to make friends that will help defend them from said rape when they get inside, so these go on to harbor extreme anger and aggression against the system. Understandably, because that system essentially forces them into a tiny corner to be beaten and raped while their dignity is trampled. And also previously mentioned is the incredulous nature of the what the aggressors force their victim into ... like wearing vaseline and koolaid for lipstick and speaking in a high pitched voice. No dignity left .. so they end up being much worse individuals than before they committed their crime. Therefore, not only do we get these tortured individuals due their imprisonment, the actual imprisonment causes the opposite of "reprogramming" so to speak - it actually make people much worse off than if they had just continued their crime as it was ....

That's sort of a rant, but getting back on track how "pressing" of an issue is prison rape when you weigh those extremely important dollars.. I mean votes on the other side of the scale? Nothing defending those evil prisoners would make it to the floor or even past one of the various committees...

[Winehole23]

Nothing defending those evil prisoners would make it to the floor or even past one of the various committees...You sure about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Rape_Elimination_Act_of_2003

[Winehole23]

http://www.spr.org/pdf/PREA.pdf

[z0sa]

You sure about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Rape_Elimination_Act_of_2003

I'm aware of its existence, however futile it is ... I actually found that alarming, considering the DoJ's report in 2006 that basically states "prison rape doesn't happen much." It makes the general populace believe something is being done, but the actuality is, next to nothing is being done.

[Winehole23]

Texas Counties are involved to this day in PREA education: http://www.county.org/education/events/2009/prea/index.asp

[Winehole23]

Roderick Johnson's attorneys are confident that they can find a sympathetic jury, but prison rape cases are notoriously hard to prove, and even jurors convinced by inmates' allegations can remain unmoved. In Butler v. Dowd, a Missouri jury found that three inmates had been raped due to deliberate indifference from the staff, violating the inmates' Eighth Amendment right to be free of "cruel and unusual" punishment. In another case in Connecticut, James v. Tilghman, a jury found that corrections officials' decision to place an inmate in a cell with a suspected sexual predator similarly violated the prisoner's constitutional rights.

In those cases, the juries awarded the inmates $1 and nothing, respectively. Both "awards" were upheld on appeal.http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/March-April-2004/feature_brook_marapr04.msp

[z0sa]

It's a sad state of affairs. Everything I've read or heard points to "local institutions" being worse, even FAR worse, due to incredible overcrowding. I've heard one of the worst county lockups in the known universe is the Bexar County one.

[Winehole23]

Texas has the worst rate of prison rape according to inmates, yet reports the least.http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/svrca04.pdf

[Winehole23]

In a national survey of imprisoned criminals, Texas has gained a dubious new distinction: Five of the 10 prisons with the highest reported rates of rape are in Texas. They are the Estelle Unit outside Huntsville, Clements in Amarillo, Allred near Wichita Falls, Coffield near Tennessee Colony and Mountain View outside Gatesville. All are men's prisons except the one at Gatesville.


Nationwide, more than 60,500 convicts reported being sexually victimized in prison — either by another prisoner or by staff — during 2006, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics' December survey of more than 1.3 million of the 2.4 million total U.S. prisoners.


Of those Texas prisons, Estelle had the highest reported prevalence of sexual victimization, with 15.7 percent of inmates reporting. Clements had 13.9 percent; Allred, 9.9 percent; Mountain View, 9.5 percent; and Coffield, 9.3 percent.


The U.S. total was 4.5 percent.


Texas prison officials said only 234 cases of alleged sexual assaults were reported statewide in all Texas prisons during 2007.


"The actual reports we have are not consistent with the results in the survey," said Michelle Lyons, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. "But because it's anonymous, there's no way for us to verify that additional number."
Even so, as the U.S. Justice Department's Review Panel on Prison Rape opened a two-day hearing in Houston on Thursday, the opinion that Texas has a big problem persisted.


"The need for genuine reform of the (Texas Department of Criminal Justice) is evident, as sexual abuse continues to plague Texas state prisons, derailing justice and shattering the dignity of victims," Lovisa Stannow wrote in an op-ed column in Thursday's Houston Chronicle. Stannow is executive director of Stop Prisoner Rape, a human rights organization.


http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/03/28/0328prisonrapes.html

[Winehole23]

OTOH:


A federal judge was so appalled that a former Colorado prison guard accused of raping an inmate was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor that he imposed $1.3 million in damages in the inmate’s civil lawsuit

http://blog.taragana.com/n/inmate-advocates-hope-13-million-colorado-prison-rape-penalty-pushes-reform-134544/

[Winehole23]

Looks like it's on Obama's radar, too:


June 23, 2009

Major report on combatting prison rape finally released

As detailed in this Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/22/AR2009062202975.html), a long awaited report from the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission has finally been released:
Nearly six years after President George W. Bush signed legislation to reduce prison rape, a blue-ribbon commission is calling on corrections officers to identify vulnerable inmates, offer better medical care and allow stricter monitoring of their facilities.

The National Prison Rape Elimination Commission, in a study to be released today, affirms that more than 7.3 million people in prisons, jails and halfway houses across the nation have "fundamental rights to safety, dignity and justice."

The number of rapes committed by detention staff members and other inmates remains a subject of intense scrutiny. A 2007 survey of state and federal prisoners estimated that 60,500 inmates had been abused the previous year. But experts say that the stigma of sexual assault often leads to underreporting of incidents and denial by many of the victims. Too often, the report says, sexual abuse of prisoners is viewed as a source of jokes rather than a problem with destructive implications for public health, crime rates and successful reentry of prisoners into the community....

The panel hosted hearings and visited 11 corrections sites before issuing its report. Among the strongest recommendations: Staff members should be subject to robust background checks and given training, which could help victims of sexual assault secure emergency medical and mental health treatment.

Panel members are preparing to send their report to Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., who will have one year to prepare mandatory national standards. The recommendations will not bind state corrections officers, but states that do not adopt them will have their criminal justice funding cut, panel members said.
The full report and other related NPREC materials are available at this link (http://nprec.us/publication/), and the report's executive summary is available here (http://nprec.us/publication/report/executive_summary.php).
http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2009/06/major-report-on-combatting-prison-rape-finally-released.html

[z0sa]

when you've got all prison administration denying all but a handful of rape cases even exist, while 100x (or so) prisoners stating otherwise, you've got a huge, huge problem, don't you think?

[LnGrrrR]

Note I said 'accept.' Many people choose to ignore the issue completely, and make jokes out of it. Or illegitimately make such a remark like was made, that highlighting prison rape is much more of an issue than this bullshit somehow means I am attempting to "down one and up the other" ... like I said, that girl didn't deserve to get gangraped, but crying about the lack of justice and making the headlines is an abomination of that same justice, because there's been tens of thousands of equally normal people in the same situation -gangraped without justice - and these people didn't sign their right to a jury away. These people also were raped numerous, even uncountable times, and contracted STDs which ruined their lives, besides the unthinkable psychological distress ..

Except the instance of this woman's suffering has led to a law designed to prevent corporations from allowing this to occur in the future, which is really what the thread was all about.

Just because one is in favor of this legislation does not mean that one can't also be against prison rape. After all, you can't expect board members to categorically list the things that find immoral/wrong/distasteful/etc etc.


I agree, but visibility of the issue isn't the entire reason I started posting about prison rape. It's because this case of gang rape is viewed as horrifying and worthy of our Legislative branch arguing and passing specific legislature over, while a much more prevalent and horrifying issue that is somewhat easily fixable is ignored by everyone .. those same leaders you and I elect to protect us from these things, ignore quite possibly the worst form of torture known to man.

As I stated above, the sensational aspects of the story (she was innocent, not in jail where people might expect this to happen, overseas) also are leading to this.

That's how the world works; atrocities happen every day, but it takes a unique case sometimes to spur action.

Edit: Question I asked was answered in another post

[Winehole23]

...considering the DoJ's report in 2006 that basically states "prison rape doesn't happen much." Link, please?

[Winehole23]

when you've got all prison administration denying all but a handful of rape cases even exist, while 100x (or so) prisoners stating otherwise, you've got a huge, huge problem, don't you think?Asked and answered, I think. We agree on this.

Reformers and activists will count incidences, wardens will focus on officially recognized cases to minimize the problem. Did you really expect to find a different dynamic here?

[z0sa]

Except the instance of this woman's suffering has led to a law designed to prevent corporations from allowing this to occur in the future, which is really what the thread was all about.

I disagree that's what this thread was all about. This thread is all about 30 republican senators being pro-business. All i'm doing is establishing a larger context. Gangrape happens all the time. You say later in this post that it takes a "unique" occurrence to get something done. Being gangraped against your will is common occurrence, and not overseas fighting a war that shouldn't be fought. It's happening Here. In America.

Your next step is to ask: what could the USG do that they haven't done, IE the PREA? We can see that the prison administration is not nearly accurately representing the prisoners. If the admins deny it's happening, that means they aren't helping the hundreds in their prison being sexually abused on a daily basis. We must find a way to make administration responsible for highly accurate information regarding the prison rape before we can expect them to stop it.


Just because one is in favor of this legislation does not mean that one can't also be against prison rape. After all, you can't expect board members to categorically list the things that find immoral/wrong/distasteful/etc etc.

I don't understand. What legislation? The contractor legislation?




As I stated above, the sensational aspects of the story (she was innocent, not in jail where people might expect this to happen, overseas) also are leading to this.

Great. One isolated incident that may never happen again, or a handful of times max, outweighs important, similar domestic problems that need addressing. I fail to see your logic.

That girl isn't even close to the first, or last, to be forced into a shipping sized container and raped (or whatever).




That's how the world works; atrocities happen every day, but it takes a unique case sometimes to spur action.

The world shouldn't work that way. Everything we base ourselves as American on is not supposed to work that way.

[z0sa]

Link, please?

Wikipedia for prison rape. It listed a few thousand occurrences as official ...

[Winehole23]

Ok. Thanks.

[Winehole23]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/svrca06.pdf

[Winehole23]

Overall, the rate in State prisons (3.75 per 1,000) was higher than the rate in local jails (2.05 per 1,000) (table 1). About 36% of the reported allegations of sexual violence in 2006 involved staff sexual misconduct...

[Winehole23]

Since the Prison Rape Elimination Act was passed in 2003, the estimated number of allegations nationwide has risen by 21% (5,386 in 2004; 6,241 in 2005)

[Winehole23]

The most common outcome of investigations was a determination that the evidence was insufficient to show whether the alleged incident occurred. In 2006 more than half of all allegations (55%) were unsubstantiated; more than a quarter (29%) were unfounded (determined not to have occurred). About a sixth of all allegations (17%) were substantiated.

[z0sa]

According to the study conducted by the United States Department of Justice for the year 2006, there were 2,205 allegations of inmate-on-inmate nonconsensual sexual acts reported, total, in the U.S. prison system. 262 of the allegations were substantiated.[4]

that's what I based it off of, from wikipedia's page I mean

[Winehole23]

Overall, 967 incidents of sexual violence were substantiated in 2006, compared to 885 in 2005 (table 3). Relative to the number of inmates, the rate of substantiated incidents of sexual violence in 2006 was 4.3 per 10,000 inmates, nearly unchanged from the 4.0 per 10,000 inmates recorded in 2005. Rates were lowest in Federal prisons and privately operated prisons (fewer than 1 in 10,000). Rates of substantiated incidents in State prisons, local jail jurisdictions, and privately operated jails were 4 to 5 times higher. Substantiated incidents were too few to provide reliable estimates for other types of facilities.

[LnGrrrR]

Great. One isolated incident that may never happen again, or a handful of times max, outweighs important, similar domestic problems that need addressing. I fail to see your logic.

I never said it was logical. Just how the world works.


The world shouldn't work that way. Everything we base ourselves as American on is not supposed to work that way.

And yet, it does. I would guess that near half of the pieces of legislation related to social/civil improvement involve a personal case, or are championed by a select few.

Americans just aren't swayed by statistics as much as they are by a 'story'.

[z0sa]

Is that how it should be?

[Winehole23]

that's what I based it off of, from wikipedia's page I meanHmm. The report itself seems to give a fuller account than the footnote on the wiki.

BTW, I still haven't found the part where it mocks or dismisses the problem.

[Winehole23]

Female staff more frequently implicated in sexual
misconduct in prisons; male staff in local jails
In the 2006 survey, characteristics of victims and perpetrators
of staff sexual misconduct and harassment differed by
type of facility:

• In State and Federal prisons, 65% of inmate victims of
staff sexual misconduct and harassment were male,
while 58% of staff perpetrators were female (tables 9
and 10).

• In local jails, 80% of victims were female, while 79% of
perpetrators were male.

• 49% of staff perpetrators in prisons were age 40 or older,
while 65% of victims were under age 35.

• 56% of staff perpetrators in jails were age 40 or older,
while 86% of victims were under age 35.

• Among staff perpetrators in prisons and jails, 71% were
white; 20%, black; and 7%, Hispanic. Among inmate victims,
66% were white; 23%, black; and 8%, Hispanic.

• A correctional officer was identified as the perpetrator in
54% of incidents in prisons, and in 98% of incidents in
jails (table 11).

• A contract employee was involved in 17% of the incidents
in prisons and in 2% of those in jails.

[Winehole23]

Three-quarters of staff perpetrators in 2006 lost their jobs; 56% were arrested or referred for prosecution. Correctional authorities indicated that staff had been discharged or resigned in 77% of substantiated incidents in 2006, compared to 82% in 2005 (table 12). Staff had also been arrested or referred for prosecution in 56% of incidents (compared to 45% of incidents in 2005). Approximately 10% of staff perpetrators in 2006 were disciplined,transferred or demoted, compared to 17% in 2005.

[LnGrrrR]

Is that how it should be?

Probably not. That's just how it is though.

[Winehole23]

In most incidents of staff sexual misconduct or harassment (76%), victims received no medical followup, counseling or mental health treatment. Victims were given a medical examination in 6% of the incidents in prisons and jails. They were provided counseling or mental health treatment in 12% of the incidents.

[z0sa]

BTW, I still haven't found the part where it mocks or dismisses the problem.

Why would they?

[Winehole23]

And the worst injustice of all - due to a supreme lack of operating staff and therefore, corroborative evidence, the DoJ essentially denies there is a problem

[Winehole23]

the DoJ hides prison rape from the world and denies those victims medical and psychological support every dayTheir own report concedes the latter, and sheds light on the former.

[z0sa]

I don't see my fallacy. They choose to accept pitifully low numbers from administration and not more aggressively pursue justice for inmates. Additionally, only a veritable handful of cases are even considered "substantiated." That's the ultimate injustice I speak of - their numbers are pitifully low, while inmates report many times that amount. They're ignoring the problem, researching it excepted. What new guidelines should even be instilled if there essentially isn't a problem - if so few inmates are truly at risk of being abused?

[z0sa]

Their own report concedes the latter, and sheds light on the former.

I don't agree that it "concedes" anything. They may point out that many more inmates report sexual abuse than officially reported, but that doesn't equate to a concession.

[Winehole23]

considering the DoJ's report in 2006 that basically states "prison rape doesn't happen much." This characterization strikes me as unfair. An official report that concedes over 5,000 allegations of prison rape in one calendar year is not hiding the ball.

[z0sa]

This characterization strikes me as unfair. An official report that concedes over 5,000 substantiated cases of prison rape in one calendar year is not hiding the ball.

But many times that amount of inmates reported abuse. Who's lying, the ex-inmate with nothing to gain except embarrassment, or the DoJ with lots to lose? Everyone knows prisons are underfunded, understaffed and overpopulated. Getting more funds is a far outlying possibility as I mentioned previously. The last thing administration wants is to overwork their already stretched and underpaid staff further, or in that same vein, garner sanctions against itself due to an inability to deal with their huge sexual abuse problem.

[Winehole23]

I don't agree that it "concedes" anything. They may point out that many more inmates report sexual abuse than officially reported, but that doesn't equate to a concession.I was referring to this:


In most incidents of staff sexual misconduct or harassment (76%), victims received no medical followup, counseling or mental health treatment.

[Winehole23]

But many times that amount of inmates reported abuse. Who's lying, the ex-inmate with nothing to gain except embarrassment, or the DoJ with lots to lose? Everyone knows prisons are underfunded, understaffed and overpopulated. Getting more funds is a far outlying possibility as I mentioned previously. The last thing administration wants is to overwork their already stretched and underpaid staff further.Still somewhat easily fixable, in your view?

[z0sa]

Still somewhat easily fixable, in your view?

I noted that it SHOULD be easily fixable. How many billions (i say it sarcastically) could it possibly take to hire more personnel, better train said personnel (i will admit they seem to be focusing primarily on that with the PREA, which is good but sitll not nearly enough), as well as establishing better camera systems including one in each cell, which would no doubt lead to much less 'in house' crime overall. The problem is our legislative system and the skewed view the DoJ's reporting gives. It doesn't really make drastic change seem necessary, but according to inmates, it's a huge problem. I can think of many reasons why they would want to conceal or downplay prison rape while I can think of just about no reasons an ex-inmate would want to overplay the issue.

[Winehole23]

I can think of many reasons why they would want to conceal or downplay prison rape while I can think of just about no reasons an ex-inmate would want to overplay the issue.Sure. But I think it's remarkable there's any official reporting at all.

[Winehole23]

And ongoing PREA education, in 2009.

[Winehole23]

game changer?

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/attorney-general-eric-holder-announces-revisions-to-the-uniform-crime-reports-definition-of-rape

[Winehole23]

Eight years after Congress passed the Prison Rape Elimination Act, the Department of Justice (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Government+Bodies/United+States+Department+of+Justice) is finally on the verge of implementing it with a series of new guidelines and auditing techniques to try to reduce sexual assaults against inmates in federal custody.http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-12-07/Prison-rape-rules-immigration-centers-Congress/51751892/1

[Winehole23]

Nearly 9,000 incidents of sexual victimization against inmates in U.S. prisons and jails were reported in 2011, with roughly half of them involving corrections staff, according to a report by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The number of incidents showed a "significant increase" over about 8,400 incidents reported in 2010 and 7,855 reported in 2009, it said. The year 2011 was the most recent cited in the bureau study, published on Thursday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/24/us-usa-prisons-sexabuse-idUSBREA0N1M420140124

[Fabbs]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/24/us-usa-prisons-sexabuse-idUSBREA0N1M420140124
More than three-quarters of staff perpetrators resigned or were fired, and nearly half were arrested, prosecuted or convicted, the study found.

:wow I'm blown away that any kind of action was taken against more then 2% of the perps.

[Winehole23]

yep

[Winehole23]

The federal Prison Rape Elimination Act was signed into law by President George W. Bush in 2003, but the rules governing its implementation were not completed until June 2012 and standards governing audits of state facilities weren't finalized until August 2013. Governor Rick Perry today sent a letter to US Attorney General Eric Holder (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6HJLeMEu3hlUUctaWxnQWVUeDA/edit?usp=sharing), forwarded by a confidant to your correspondent, declaring Texas would not comply. Here's a notable excerpt:

Because PREA standards prohibit most cross-gender viewing, TDCJ would be compelled to deny female officers job assignments and promotion opportunities, simply based on their gender. A consultant referred to TDCJ by the PREA Resource Center absurdly suggested that TDCJ solve this proglem by removing security camersas and obstructing lines of sight. That is ridiculous. Doing so would not only be a security risk for both prisoners and staff but also increase the likelihood of assaults taking place, defeating the intent of the law.


PREA also infringes on Texas' right to establish the state's own age of criminal responsibility. That age in Texas is 17. PREA, unlike the JJDP Act, which recognizes each state's age of full criminal responsibility, makes no allowances for differences among the states. PREA sight and sound separation standards would require Texas to separate 17-year old adult inmates from 18-year old adult inmates at substantial cost with no discernible benefit to the state or its inmates.


PREA standards also set specific staffing ratios for juvenile detention facilities different from the state's current rate. While this ratio may be ideal in some facilities, the decision of what constitutes appropriate staffing ratios should be left to each state and to those professionals with operational knowledge. One of Texas' 254 counties has said that compliance with this standard would require them to hire 30 more detention officers. That is an unacceptable cost for a small county with a limited budget. ...


PREA standards also mandate that by May 15, 2014, the governor of each state must certify, under threat of criminal penalties, that all facilities under the governor's control are compliant with PREA standards. Texas has approximately 297 facilities subject to PREA, including 164 lock-up facilities. PREA requires one-third of these facilities to be audited each year, yet no audit tool for lock-ups has even been developed. There is no way that I will certify compliance for facilities that have not even been audited. The compliance and certification deadline is further complicated by the fact that PREA requires states to conduct audits by PREA-certified auditors. There are only about 100 PREA-certified auditors nationwide, and the first of those were not certified until late 2013.


Even if the manifest problems with PREA standards I laid out above did not exist, I cannot and will not certify as true those things for which I do not have the facts.


Washington has taken an opportunity to help address a problem in our prisons and jails, but instead created a counterproductive and unnecessarily cumbersome and costly regulatory mess for the states.


I encourage the administration to change these standards and do so soon. Absent standards that acknowledge the operational realities in our prisons and jails, I will not sign your form and I will encourage my fellow governors to follow suit. In the meantime, Texas will continue the programs it has already implemented to reduce prison rapes.



Fascinating. Perry's letter portrayed this as an Obama Administration initiative but really it's his Texas gubernatorial predecessor-turned-president whose policy he's snubbing.http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/2014/03/perry-texas-wont-comply-with-federal.html

[boutons_deux]

what about rapes in juvenile and undoc immigrant detention centers?

[Winehole23]

what about it, boutons?

[boutons_deux]

what about it, boutons?

it happens, a lot. "Do Your Own Research" -- WC

[Winehole23]

I've posted on TYC problems here. Do you have a point?

[Winehole23]

I'm not clairvoyant. Quit waving your hands and make your damn point.