The definitive list of the NBA's franchise guys (and others)

[duncan228]

The definitive list of the NBA's franchise guys (and others) (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/13/franchise/)
Vince Thomas
for NBA.com

Tom Brady has never been given the "franchise tag" in the NFL, but the Patriots put the tag on Matt Cassel earlier this year, before he was traded to the Chiefs. In the NFL, each team can designate one player each year as a "franchise player." All that means is that a team can keep that player from becoming a free agent for a year, as long as certain conditions are met. So, yeah, for a few months, Matt Cassel was the Patriots' "franchise player," but we all know Brady was/is the squad's Franchise Player.

In the NBA, the term Franchise Player is not the cold, salary-cap, collective bargaining agreement-related designation that it is in the NFL. It's an abstract phrase and, because it isn't something mathematical or scientific, it gets thrown around haphazardly and doled out too generously. There is a difference -- sometimes huge, sometimes puzzlingly small -- between a Real Franchise Player and a Franchise Foundation Player.

Foundation Guys are usually ultra-talented stars that, if given the proper supporting talent, can have their squads in contention and should be paid very handsomely, lest you want them jetting to the next squad. I don't begrudge, for one iota of a second, A'mare Stoudemire getting his dough. I think he's worth the $16 million, then $18 million he's due to get get paid. But there's something missing with him and his ilk, and it almost never has to do with the things they do with the Spalding, but with the way their brains are wired.

Franchise Guys are the game's transcendent athletes. Not only do they leap over the normal confines of productivity and skill and bank accounts and all that, they more importantly transcend competition. They have innate qualities, hard-wired into their essence/swag/will that they impose upon the games they play, the teams they play for and the poor lames that were punished to play against them. Franchise Guys are usually supremely gifted, but they are always transformational. What set Tim Duncan apart from Elton Brand or Kobe Bryant apart from Tracy McGrady is that Duncan and Kobe -- Franchise Guys, even as, say, Duncan reaches his geriatric stage -- can transform a team and its players and routinely alter games by the sheer mix of their talent, will and whatever that abstract thing is that lets teammates know, "We're in good hands."

In my lifetime, only one team won the championship without a bona fide Franchise Guy -- the 2004 Detroit Pistons. Every other team had either Magic, Kareem, Moses Malone, Bird, Isiah Thomas, Jordan, Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin Garnett, Dwyane Wade, Kobe or Shaq. That's not to say that you need a Franchise Guy to be a really good team. There are only a handful of players I'd call true Franchise Guys. But there are more than few teams with gifted players that win a lot of games, advance in the playoffs and contend. It's just that, at the end of the year, the squad that hoists the trophy always has that one player. The Lakers had Kobe, the Magic had Dwight Howard and Hedo Turkoglu. See what I'm saying?

So I'm drawing a line in the sand. Not every really good player (some of them happen to be among my favorites) is a Franchise Guy. There are Foundation Guys and Franchise Guys and there are far fewer of Franchise Guys than you probably think. This is the definitive list...

Foundations Guys

Chris Bosh: Really good player, but I don't think he'll ever be transcendent. I can't ever see myself looking at two teams battling in late-May or June and saying, "Team X is gonna take this series, because they have Bosh." Also, Bosh might be the most swell dude in the league. But is he too nice?

Amar'e Stoudemire: The mid-decade Suns were one of the most symbiotic teams in recent memory. Everyone fed off each other. I always thought that if Nash was gonna win MVP, he should share it with A'mare, because A'mare is probably the most deft pick-'n-roll finisher of this era. But let's say a shambled team like the Knicks land A'mare and only A'mare next season ... does that even spell contention? So long as Stoudemire struggles to average double-digit rebounds and dozes on defense, I'd say no. It'd only be a start, which is why A'mare is basically the poster boy for the Foundation Guys.

Paul Pierce: If you gave Pauly a mediocre team, would he elevate them to elite status?

Rajon Rondo: Rondo might be the best perimeter defender in the league, he can run an offense with slickness and he's an underrated leader. If I'm Danny Ainge, I'm thinking, "If I can keep him focused and content, I have my guy for the next decade. Now let me start add the puzzle pieces."

Gilbert Arenas: When healthy, you could argue that Gil is one of the 10 most talented players in the league. I get on Gil about his leadership, though. As a Foundation Guy, he needs an Antawn Jamison and Caron Butler. If you switched a leader like Jamison with, say, Lamarcus Aldridge and a gritty, aggressive scorer/defender like Tough Juice with, say, Tayshaun Prince, the Wizards are screwed. I'm still waiting for Gil to step up and grab the reins.

Steve Nash: He can still run a team with the best of them, but he can't carry a team -- at all.

Carmelo Anthony: Probably the most complete scorer in the league and, if we polled NBA players and asked them who's the most difficult player to defend, there's a good chance 'Melo would get the most votes. He's undoubtedly one of the "best" players in the league. But (and this is a pretty significant "but") Chauncey Billups said he spent a lot of time teaching/mentoring 'Melo last season. Until 'Melo takes on that kind of role, I can't call him a Franchise Guy. I hope he's moving in that direction.

Chauncey Billups: One of the best leaders of his generation, but just not a transcendent enough talent to be considered a Franchise Guy.

Al Jefferson: For the past three seasons, his teams have won 24, 22 and then 24 games. That's not all his fault, by any stretch. But, suffice to say, the jury is still out.

Baron Davis: When happy and motivated and with the right pieces around him, a Baron-led squad can be fairly scary.

Dirk Nowitzki: The Mavs are lurking. They could really make noise this season. That'll depend a lot on Dirk. He's had plenty of Franchise moments, but he was dreadful in the four straight losses in the '06 Finals and submarined the next year, his MVP year, while his 67-win Mavs were getting bounched in the first round. Those two postseason series define Dirk right now. Hall of Famer? Yes. Franchise Guy? No.

Derrick Rose: This could change within a season or two. As I've written before, I see Rose battling Chris Paul for "best point guard alive" tag soon.

Pau Gasol: If you replace Kobe with a dude like Michael Redd and Gasol becomes the Lakers best player, L.A. can't win a championship, but it would still be a really good team, because Gasol is really good.

Brandon Roy: B-Roy has some big shoulders. Few guys get it done in the fourth quarter like the young Blazer, but before I give him the Franchise tag, I want to see him advance in the playoffs.

Kevin Durant: Soon, youngster. Soon. But, as great and precocious as he is, Durant has a lot to work on before he can enter the Franchise realm.

Danny Granger: His scoring average has jumped about six ppg every year he's been in the league. I doubt we'll see him average 30-plus this season, but I do expect for his game to get more nuanced. Still, I have no idea if Granger is a Franchise Guy, since he hasn't seen the postseason since his rookie year.

Joe Johnson: Joe is a heck of a ball player. He does so many things well. Well this season is the litmus test for his Franchise credentials. The Hawks are deep, my friends -- like, two deep at every position. If Joe is a Franchise Guy then we should see this team wrestling with a fellow elite squad in late May, not getting swept out of the playoffs like last season.

Tracy McGrady: That "first round" thing is gonna haunt T-Mac for a long time.

Yao Ming: Yao is 7-6, with career averages of 19 and 9 and a string of early exits in the postseason. And when I say "early exits," I mean, up until last season, never seeing the second round.

Deron Williams: I never really got swept up in the Paul/Williams debate, because, as dope as Williams is, I never really thought it was a debate.

Dwight Howard: Hopefully, during one of these seasons, the Magic will be able to start running their offense through Howard. When that happens, he will be about as Franchise as you can get.

Franchise Guys

Chris Paul: No team is more reliant on one player as the Hornets are on CP3. New Orleans still won 49 games, in a tough West, despite all the injuries. You know why? Because Paul put up a statistical season that was downright foolish. Barring a career-ending injury, CP will go down as the best point guard not named Magic Johnson.

Dwyane Wade: Exhibit A: his 2006 playoff run.

LeBron James: No player is more Franchise. He gets you wins and packed arenas.

Kobe Bryant: The best player of his generation. As well as he has played for these past two seasons to get the Lakers back to the elite strata, I still think his 2005-2006 season -- where he averaged 35 ppg (a ridiculous figure in the modern NBA) and almost led that lame Lakers squad to a first round upset of the Suns -- was when you really saw a Franchise Guy at work.

Tim Duncan: Maybe not any more, but if you've been one for the past 12 years that included four rings and two MVPs, well ...

Kevin Garnett: OK, again, maybe not any more. But he has been a Franchise Guy for most of the millennium. He might not have been able to elevate some of those woeful Timberwolves squads past the Lakers and Spurs, but you saw what he did with Boston. That was his transcendent will and transformative personality at work.

Vincent Thomas writes "The Commish" column for SLAM Magazine and is a contributing commentator for ESPN. His column appears weekly on NBA.com.

[lefty]

Chris Paul?

Really?

50 pt playoff loss anyone , hello?

If Peja is off, Hornets are fucked

[in2deep]

Foundations Guys

Rajon Rondo: Rondo might be the best perimeter defender in the league, he can run an offense with slickness and he's an underrated leader. If I'm Danny Ainge, I'm thinking, "If I can keep him focused and content, I have my guy for the next decade. Now let me start add the puzzle pieces."


:lmao :lmao :lmao

[lefty]

:lmao :lmao :lmao
+1

[Stump]

I'm suprised TP didn't get a mention as a foundation guy.

[JamStone]

I'm sure there will be more Spurs fans amazed at the omissions of Tony and Manu...

[hater]

stupid list. does not make sense at all. there are franchise players but no such thing as foundation guys. what the fuck is that?

franchise players:
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Al Jefferson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

[JamStone]

And with what he said about Duncan and KG, why not also include Shaq?

[hater]

And with what he said about Duncan and KG, why not also include Shaq?

well Duncan + KG have about %60+ left in the tank. I'm afraid Shaq is approaching E

[JamStone]

Don't really disagree with that, but hey (for argument sake), he still put up 18 and 8 on 60% shooting and played 75 games last season. At this point, there's a chance he's more durable than KG.

[hater]

true

[DPG21920]

You cannot have Billups/Rondo/Rose and not have TP.

[BlackBellamy]

And with what he said about Duncan and KG, why not also include Shaq?

Why even qualify Tim with a 'well maybe not anymore'? Outside of playing with pain on a defensively understaffed team and it showing for the second half of last season, how has Tim slowed down? (maybe a bit literally with foot speed, but thankfully not post the move variety). He averaged 19 and 10 last year still playing a typical "Tim" sort of game that has never been predicated on athleticism. Tim Duncan is absolutely still a franchise player. When Tim can't really play like Tim anymore, he'll simply retire.

[redzero]

Chris Paul?

Really?

50 pt playoff loss anyone , hello?

If Peja is off, Hornets are fucked

Please, oh please tell me who else could have carried Paul's horrible teammates to 49 wins. Please, tell me. And if your answer is Dwyane Wade or LeBron James, then you answered your own question.

[lefty]

Please, oh please tell me who else could have carried Paul's horrible teammates to 49 wins. Please, tell me. And if your answer is Dwyane Wade or LeBron James, then you answered your own question.
:lol

[redzero]

:lol

Haha what? Haha you realized your post was idiotic, or haha you think that getting 49 wins with garbage teammates is easy?

[da_suns_fan]

stupid list. does not make sense at all. there are franchise players but no such thing as foundation guys. what the fuck is that?

franchise players:
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Al Jefferson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

Jesus.

btw - Chris Paul is ABSOLUTELY a franchise player.

[lefty]

Haha what? Haha you realized your post was idiotic, or haha you think that getting 49 wins with garbage teammates is easy?
Paul is not a franchise player; period

[redzero]

Paul is not a franchise player; period

Okay, I'll repeat my question, since you are retarded:

Who else could have carried the Hornets to 49 wins?

Answer the question.

[lefty]

Okay, I'll repeat my question, since you are retarded:

Who else could have carried the Hornets to 49 wins?

Answer the question.
His flopping; Paul gets away with it a lot of flopping; although it didn't work against the Spurs in 2007

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u296/emotionless2007/cpflop.gif

[Morg1411]

Chris Paul is an awesome player. A whiny bitch, but an awesome player.

[redzero]

His flopping; Paul gets away with it a lot of flopping; although it didn't work against the Spurs in 2007

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u296/emotionless2007/cpflop.gif

And today's Wednesday. What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Do Spurs fans hate Paul so much that they would claim with a straight face that he isn't a franchise player?

[jonnybravo]

Jesus.

btw - Chris Paul is ABSOLUTELY a franchise player.

Agree with your sentiment on Al Jefferson. How can someone even dignify calling him a franchise player when he's led his franchise WHERE exactly?

[Morg1411]

Do Spurs fans hate Paul so much that they would claim with a straight face that he isn't a franchise player?

Most of them would, yeah. :lol

Paul is a franchise player, and anyone who says otherwise is letting their hate obscure their vision. Fortunately for me, I can say he's a franchise player and still hate his whiny, overfloppping ass without remorse.

[Morg1411]

Agree with your sentiment on Al Jefferson. How can someone even dignify calling him a franchise player when he's led his franchise WHERE exactly?

I can see calling Jefferson a franchise player, since they're trying to build the TWolves around him. The fact that so far they've utterly failed doesn't change the fact that a Jefferson-centric team has been their plan.

[DBMethos]

Rondo :lol :nope

[Muser]

Wow, there are a LOT of "foundation" guys I could list over Rondo.

And Paul is a Franchise Player.

[dirk4mvp]

I am now aware that Garnett is a franchise player while 3 guys who are foundation players have been as far as or farther than him as a #1 guy.

[Culburn369]

Gandering those lists makes one realize just how fucked the NBA truly is.

I God's, what a mess.

[carrao45]

Paul is not a franchise player; period

:lmao Dumbass Spurs Fan

[carrao45]

His flopping; Paul gets away with it a lot of flopping; although it didn't work against the Spurs in 2007

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u296/emotionless2007/cpflop.gif

Thats not even an answer

[Culburn369]

stupid list. does not make sense at all. there are franchise players but no such thing as foundation guys.

franchise players:
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan

I'm with hater on his prose and I've trimmed his list...though had some consternation including James.

[redzero]

I'm with hater on his prose and I've trimmed his list...though had some consternation including James.

You're missing Wade and Paul.

[Culburn369]

You're missing Wade and Paul.

I'm with Lefty on Paul...and the '06 Finals should not affect one's judgment of Wade.

[redzero]

I'm with Lefty on Paul...and the '06 Finals should not affect one's judgment of Wade.

So, you're using Lefty's retarded reasoning as to why Paul isn't a franchise player? Well, the same question that I asked him applies to you, too.

And the '06 Finals should affect one's judgment on Wade. Most definitely.

[Culburn369]

So, you're using Lefty's retarded reasoning as to why Paul isn't a franchise player? Well, the same question that I asked him applies to you, too.

And the '06 Finals should affect one's judgment on Wade. Most definitely.

I did not read Lefty's reasoning, red. I just do not view Paul as a franchise entity.

[redzero]

I did not read Lefty's reasoning, red. I just do not view Paul as a franchise entity.

Why? Who else could have carried the Hornets to 49 wins?

[Allanon]

I like the idea of "Foundation Players". I don't like the actual word "Foundation" but I like the idea of a distinction. Guys who have the talent to be Franchise Players but can't change the fortunes of a ballclub because they are usually lacking the mental fortitude/leadership abilities/desire to win/etc.

[Greg Oden]

Why? Who else could have carried the Hornets to 49 wins?

You act like that's some type of accomplishment, you fucking queer. But keep hanging your hat on that.

[Culburn369]

That's his one shining moment. You take away that rigged finals and Wade is the level of a healthy Arenas.

Yes. Precisely.

& see, we know it, but, Wade knows it too....it's just a little monkey on his back now, but, it's growing continuously.

[redzero]

You act like that's some type of accomplishment, you fucking queer. But keep hanging your hat on that.

Okay, so franchise players don't make the playoffs? Is that what you're saying? Outside of LeBron and maybe Wade, I wouldn't take anybody over Chris Paul.

You fags keep talking about what happened during the playoffs, but you forget that the Hornets wouldn't have even made the playoffs without one of the aforementioned players.

[kamikazi_player]

anyone that doesn't consider CP3 a franchise player is a moron

[Greg Oden]

Okay, so franchise players don't make the playoffs? Is that what you're saying? Outside of LeBron and maybe Wade, I wouldn't take anybody over Chris Paul.

You fags keep talking about what happened during the playoffs, but you forget that the Hornets wouldn't have even made the playoffs without one of the aforementioned players.

Spur fan is unimpressed at your trolling attempt by saying you'd rather have Paul over Parker.

[redzero]

Spur fan is unimpressed at your trolling attempt by saying you'd rather have Paul over Parker.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Are all of you Paul haters retards?

[Culburn369]

Spur fan is unimpressed at your trolling attempt by saying you'd rather have Paul over Parker.

And it's a fine comparison:::Parker, early on was where Paul is now=at risk, self doubt, run raw. And I was frankly pleased as punch because at that time he/Parker was the Spur's weak link and the Lakers identified him as such and took advantage for a short span of time before Parker found himself, kicked it into a higher gear and the Lakers had to go elsewhere for their relief.

Yes, I'd take Parker over Paul. Yes. Parker learned & earned his chops. Paul has done neither. He wants his hand delivered, OR, perhaps he's afraid and can't move. Parker was afraid, he couldn't move and then he evolved and he moved, he grew. Much to my chagrin,,,well, until the Lakers went into the shit and I needed TP to help squelch the Suns (tee, hee) came in mighty handy in the dry interim of a Laker's slump-a-rooney.

[kamikazi_player]

And it's a fine comparison:::Parker, early on was where Paul is now=at risk, self doubt, run raw. And I was frankly pleased as punch because at that time he/Parker was the Spur's weak link and the Lakers identified him as such and took advantage for a short span of time before Parker found himself, kicked it into a higher gear and the Lakers had to go elsewhere for their relief.

Yes, I'd take Parker over Paul. Yes. Parker learned & earned his chops. Paul has done neither. He wants his hand delivered, OR, perhaps he's afraid and can't move. Parker was afraid, he couldn't move and then he evolved and he moved, he grew. Much to my chagrin,,,well, until the Lakers went into the shit and I needed TP to help squelch the Suns (tee, hee) came in mighty handy in the dry interim of a Laker's slump-a-rooney.
Someone shoot this bastard, or better yet, run into oncoming traffic.

[redzero]

and it's a fine comparison:::parker, early on was where paul is now=at risk, self doubt, run raw. And i was frankly pleased as punch because at that time he/parker was the spur's weak link and the lakers identified him as such and took advantage for a short span of time before parker found himself, kicked it into a higher gear and the lakers had to go elsewhere for their relief.

Yes, i'd take parker over paul. Yes. Parker learned & earned his chops. Paul has done neither. He wants his hand delivered, or, perhaps he's afraid and can't move. Parker was afraid, he couldn't move and then he evolved and he moved, he grew. Much to my chagrin,,,well, until the lakers went into the shit and i needed tp to help squelch the suns (tee, hee) came in mighty handy in the dry interim of a laker's slump-a-rooney.

You'd take Tony Parker over the best point guard in the league just because he played with Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili?

http://englishrussia.com/forum/files/blank_facepalm_224.gif

Thank God you aren't a GM, because it's clear you don't know shit.

Let's compare Tony Parker and Chris Paul. The one with the statistical advantage is in bold.

Paul: 22.8 ppg, 11.0 asts, 5.5 rbs, 2.8 spg, .503 fg%, and .868 ft%.
Parker: 22.0 ppg, 6.9 asts, 3.1 rbs, 0.9 spg, .506 fg%, and .782 ft%.

Enjoy not making the playoffs.

[Culburn369]

Someone shoot this bastard, or better yet, run into oncoming traffic.

Blah, blah, blah.

[Culburn369]

You'd take Tony Parker over the best point guard in the league just because he played with Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili?

Thank God you aren't a GM, because it's clear you don't know shit.

Let's compare Tony Parker and Chris Paul. The one with the statistical advantage is in bold.

Paul: 22.8 ppg, 11.0 asts, 5.5 rbs, 2.8 spg, .503 fg%, and .868 ft%.
Parker: 22.0 ppg, 6.9 asts, 3.1 rbs, 0.9 spg, .506 fg%, and .782 ft%.

Enjoy not making the playoffs.

Yer like DUNCAN, everything to you guys is stats.

Parker is a winner.
Iverson is a loser.
Nash is a loser.
Paul? He's twixt a winner and a loser.

[redzero]

Yer like DUNCAN, everything to you guys is stats.

Parker is a winner.
Iverson is a loser.
Nash is a loser.
Paul? He's twixt a winner and a loser.

I'll repeat: If you were starting a franchise and you choose Tony Parker over Chris Paul, you will not make the playoffs.

If Tony Parker's better than Chris Paul, Brandon Roy is better than Kobe Bryant.

[Culburn369]

If Tony Parker's better than Chris Paul, Brandon Roy is better than Kobe Bryant.

What, yer extorting me, red? If I insist on TP, I don't get Bryant over Roy?

[badfish22]

Yer like DUNCAN, everything to you guys is stats.

Parker is a winner.
Iverson is a loser.
Nash is a loser.
Paul? He's twixt a winner and a loser.


Im I hearing this right?

You would rather have Parker than Paul?? Is that a joke?

Paul is the best PG in the league by far, and will be for awhile.

[redzero]

What, yer extorting me, red? If I insist on TP, I don't get Bryant over Roy?

No, I'm just using retard logic like you.

But since you think Chris Paul isn't franchise player, please tell me who would have done better than Paul did last season.

[BlackBellamy]

What, yer extorting me, red? If I insist on TP, I don't get Bryant over Roy?

You're getting two seperate things between Paul and Parker. They might as well be playing different positions. Hornets and Spurs teams as a whole are run on styles very distinct from one another. Parker might average more assists if it were necessary for him to dish since the beginning, if the Hornets had better passing big men his assists might slide ect. ect. Paul's stats might be slightly inflated since he has (for the most part) a rotating staff of sub-par talent with lack of chemistry to work with. That being said, I still believe that he is a franchise player. If you're the best at your position in the NBA, it would be hard not to be. IMO what ever productivity the Hornet's team has is because of Paul.

[Culburn369]

Im I hearing this right?

You would rather have Parker than Paul?? Is that a joke?

Yes, you're hearing it right. No, it's not a joke. I'm not talking about Paul getting a [look see] to make sure it's Duncan and Manu and not Paul. I'm talking about sight unseen, taking Paul & Parker and switching them out. NO! Parker was at the brink of utter failure. He was every teams targeted bitch. He rose up off the mat to persevere....Hey! And get this: he never uttered a peep.

[Findog]

He's a little bitch, but CP3 is also a franchise player. So is Dirk.

[redzero]

Yes, you're hearing it right. No, it's not a joke. I'm not talking about Paul getting a [look see] to make sure it's Duncan and Manu and not Paul. I'm talking about sight unseen, taking Paul & Parker and switching them out. NO! Parker was at the brink of utter failure. He was every teams targeted bitch. He rose up off the mat to persevere....Hey! And get this: he never uttered a peep.

That's all well and good, but how does that make Parker better than Paul? Yeah, he rose up and played at a worse level than Paul. Congatulations.

Oh, and answer my question.

[dirk4mvp]

Why isn't culburn just resorting to his tee hee thing?

[Leetonidas]

This list sucks.

The REAL franchise players in the NBA:

1. James
2. Duncan
3. Nowitzki
4. Bryant
5. Wade
6. Howard
7. Paul
8. Williams

[Culburn369]

That's all well and good, but how does that make Parker better than Paul? Yeah, he rose up and played at a worse level than Paul. Congatulations.

Oh, and answer my question.

No, I'm not answering your question, red.

& I just got done explaining the difference between Paul & Parker. You just don't like my opinion. I know what I know. Doesn't make it right, just makes it my belief.

***And I didn't >tee, hee< because I ain't jackassin' around.

[redzero]

No, I'm not answering your question, red

So, you think Paul isn't a franchise player, but you can't actually pick anybody who would have made the Hornets more successful last season?


& I just got done explaining the difference between Paul & Parker. You just don't like my opinion. I know what I know. Doesn't make it right, just makes it my belief.


Your opinion is nonsense. You would rather have Parker because he proved all of his doubters wrong? Because he has three rings?

Paul is a better scorer. Oh, Parker has three rings, so it doesn't matter.
Paul is a better passer. Oh, Parker has three rings, so it doesn't matter.
Paul is a better rebounder. Oh, Parker has three rings, so it doesn't matter.
Paul is better at getting steals. Oh, Parker has three rings, so it doesn't matter.

And so on. Parker is a shoot first point guard, but Paul still manages to score more points than he does. You don't have an argument. Your opinion is stupid.

It's amazing that you've posted 3,382 messages in such a short amount of time, but you have yet to actually say anything.

[DPG21920]

To be fair, if Paul had two other 20 PPG scorers on his team and a dominate player like Duncan, his numbers would drop. Still, CP3 is better than Parker.

[Culburn369]

It's amazing that you've posted 3,382 messages in such a short amount of time, but you have yet to actually say anything.

I ain't here to impress or to convert anybody, red.

[ElNono]

Take Garnett out and put Shaq in.
Take Rondo out and put Ginobili in.

And if Dany Granger makes the cut, there's no reason TP can't be there either...

[redzero]

Take Garnett out and put Shaq in.
Take Rondo out and put Ginobili in.

And if Dany Granger makes the cut, there's no reason TP can't be there either...

I know that Rondo doesn't belong, but Ginobili doesn't belong on that list either. He has never lead an NBA team.

[DPG21920]

Well we need to define "lead". Some people bring up winning "x" amount of games. Well Pau Gasol led teams to 50 win seasons with his next best player being Mike Miller.

[Fabbs]

The definitive list of the NBA's franchise guys (and others) (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/13/franchise/)

Pau Gasol: If you replace Kobe with a dude like Michael Redd and Gasol becomes the Lakers best player, L.A. can't win a championship, but it would still be a really good team, because Gasol is really good.
If you replace Gasol with a dude like Michael Redd and Kobe becomes the Lakers best player, L.A. can't win a championship, but it would still be a really good team, because Kobe is really good.

FIFY

[Culburn369]

Well Pau Gasol led teams to 50 win seasons with his next best player being Mike Miller.

But, DPG, that was before he came to play with the Lakers, but after you knew better.

tee, hee.

[redzero]

Well we need to define "lead". Some people bring up winning "x" amount of games. Well Pau Gasol led teams to 50 win seasons with his next best player being Mike Miller.

We don't even need to bring up how many games anybody won when referring to Manu, because he's never been the number one guy on his team in the NBA.

[Fabbs]

The definitive list of the NBA's franchise guys (and others) (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/vince_thomas/10/13/franchise/)
The best player of his generation. As well as he has played for these past two seasons to get the Lakers back to the elite strata, I still think his 2005-2006 season -- where he averaged 35 ppg (a ridiculous figure in the modern NBA) and almost led that lame Lakers squad to a first round upset of the Suns -- was when you really saw a Franchise Guy at work.
another fixer.

Tim Duncan: The best player of his generation. Maybe not any more, but if you've been one for the past 12 years that included four rings and two MVPs, well ..
Best players of his generation:
Jordan
Dream Hakeem
Shaq/Duncan Duncan/Shaq (either way is good)
Duncan 2002-2007
Bron 2007-

[dirk4mvp]

Gasol was the best player on those 3 playoff Grizzly teams but he was far from leading them. The first 2 years they had 5 guys avg. double figures and the last they had 7.

[DPG21920]

You keep saying: "who else would have led the Hornets to 49 wins...". Pau had a worse team and led them to 50. Does that make him a franchise player? I am saying you need to frame your arguments better.

Just because Manu has played with Duncan, doesn't mean he is automatically canceled out. I am not saying Manu should be there, but that is a weak argument.

If Paul came into the league with Duncan, he would be in the same boat as TP and Manu.

[dirk4mvp]

Pau had a worse team and led them to 50.

No he didn't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If you replace Gasol with a dude like Michael Redd and Kobe becomes the Lakers best player, L.A. can't win a championship, but it would still be a really good team, because Kobe is really good.

FIFY


Let it go, Kobe was the best player on a championship team. Yeah, it sucks, I didn't think it'd happen either.

[Fabbs]

Let it go, Kobe was the best player on a championship team. Yeah, it sucks, I didn't think it'd happen either.
another fixer.

Duncan was the best player on 4 legitimate championship teams. He didn't need Jameer Nelson or the refs to corn him on any one of the 4 either. :toast

Give your TomDoll some more huggin.
And did you fix that patch securely after the thrashing you gave TomDoll post Denver debaucle?

[DPG21920]

No he didn't.

Bull.

Memphis:

Shane Battier
Troy Bell
Pau Gasol
Ryan Humphrey
Dahntay Jones
Mike Miller
Bo Outlaw
Wesley Person
James Posey
Theron Smith
Stromile Swift
Jake Tsakalidis
Earl Watson
Jason Williams
Lorenzen Wright

NO:

Hilton Armstrong
Ryan Bowen
Devin Brown
Rasual Butler
Tyson Chandler
Antonio Daniels
Melvin Ely
Mike James
Sean Marks
Chris Paul
Morris Peterson
James Posey
Peja Stojakovic
David West
Julian Wright

Very comparable talent. 5 double digit scorers for Memphis, 4 for NO.

[ElNono]

I know that Rondo doesn't belong, but Ginobili doesn't belong on that list either. He has never lead an NBA team.

No, but he has led a team successfully that had a lot of NBA talent, past actual NBA talent. I would argue that in his better seasons he was a better player than about half of that Foundation players list.

The list is skewed severely anyways, since Derrick Rose is a great talent but he still has a lot to prove. A guy like melo is kind of the same thing. His team was not serious until Chauncey got there. The first list is entirely debatable, both on inclusions and ommisions.

And for the record, I do think CP3 is a franchise guy. The problem for him is that because of his size and the position he plays in, it's very though for him to really make a big difference on the defensive side. The last great Franchise PG was Magic, IMHO, but he was a lot bigger than Paul and also had better post players than what CP3 has.

I just wish he would cut down acting like a whiny bitch.

[dirk4mvp]

It's comparable, but Pau's Grizzly teams had more balance.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

IMO, there is no such thing as a PG who can be deemed a "franchise player". In almost the last 20 years, no team has won a championship with a PG as its franchise go to player.

[redzero]

You keep saying: "who else would have led the Hornets to 49 wins...". Pau had a worse team and led them to 50. Does that make him a franchise player? I am saying you need to frame your arguments better.

Those are different situations, and Pau wouldn't have done trick for last year's Hornets.


Just because Manu has played with Duncan, doesn't mean he is automatically canceled out. I am not saying Manu should be there, but that is a weak argument.

He has done nothing to show that he is a franchise or foundation player at all. I know he played with Duncan, but he isn't that kind of player. He is a very good player, but to put him with some of the other players mentioned would be wrong.


If Paul came into the league with Duncan, he would be in the same boat as TP and Manu.


But this could apply to any player. One can speculate all they want, but in the end, we have to go on what we have.

[ElNono]

He has done nothing to show that he is a franchise or foundation player at all. I know he played with Duncan, but he isn't that kind of player. He is a very good player, but to put him with some of the other players mentioned would be wrong.

What do you mean he has done nothing to show he's a foundation player? He was one vote away from taking the NBA Finals MVP from Duncan, not to mention he was the Spurs leading scorer just two seasons ago.
He was an All-Star, All NBA 3rd team, NBA 6th man of the year.

If the meltdown we had last season without him doesn't tell you how good he is, I don't know what does.

[Findog]

IMO, there is no such thing as a PG who can be deemed a "franchise player". In almost the last 20 years, no team has won a championship with a PG as its franchise go to player.

Zeke - 1990. That was 19 years ago.

[Darthkiller]

so somehow steve nash 2 time mvp and nowitzski 1 time mvp arent franchise players yet chris paul is ? both nash and nowitzski have carried their team way better than paul did.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

another fixer.

Duncan was the best player on 4 legitimate championship teams. He didn't need Jameer Nelson or the refs to corn him on any one of the 4 either. :toast

Give your TomDoll some more huggin.
And did you fix that patch securely after the thrashing you gave TomDoll post Denver debaucle?

What the fuck are you talking about? I never said Kobe > Duncan, all I said was Kobe's last championship was won with him as the best player.

[ElNono]

Zeke - 1990. That was 19 years ago.

+1, and he was small too. But that team was tough as nails. No sissy Peja bitches there.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Zeke - 1990. That was 19 years ago.


I said almost 20 years because of Zeke....

[redzero]

What do you mean he has done nothing to show he's a foundation player? He was one vote away from taking the NBA Finals MVP from Duncan, not to mention he was the Spurs leading scorer just two seasons ago.
He was an All-Star, All NBA 3rd team, NBA 6th man of the year.

If the meltdown we had last season without him doesn't tell you how good he is, I don't know what does.

As I have stated before, he has never been the best player on his team. We haven't seen defenses build their game plans around him. We haven't seen how he would perform without Tim Duncan or Tony Parker around.

Being an All Star or 6th man doesn't automatically make one a franchise or foundation player.

[DPG21920]

So, if Manu had Tyson Chandler and David West and led them to 49 wins, he would be a franchise player in your eyes?

We have seen what Kobe could do without Shaq or Gasol, and it was not very much. Even franchise players need help to win. The good ones just need less.

[redzero]

So, if Manu had Tyson Chandler and David West and led them to 49 wins, he would be a franchise player in your eyes?

We have seen what Kobe could do without Shaq or Gasol, and it was not very much. Even franchise players need help to win. The good ones just need less.

If Manu could get 49 wins with Chandler missing 37 games and without anybody else besides West being able to create their own shot, I would be the first one on his bandwagon. Problem is, that would never happen in a thousand years. He simply doesn't have that kind of talent, and he never will.

[DPG21920]

Just trying to gauge your criteria.

[ElNono]

As I have stated before, he has never been the best player on his team. We haven't seen defenses build their game plans around him. We haven't seen how he would perform without Tim Duncan or Tony Parker around.

Being an All Star or 6th man doesn't automatically make one a franchise or foundation player.

I disagree. We have seen defenses planned around him. Larry Brown in '05, after the first two Finals games said as much. Same thing with Karl in Denver and D'Antoni while he was in Phoenix.
Now, if you didn't watch many Spurs games back then that's a different story altogether.

[ElNono]

If Manu could get 49 wins with Chandler missing 37 games and without anybody else besides West being able to create their own shot, I would be the first one on his bandwagon. Problem is, that would never happen in a thousand years. He simply doesn't have that kind of talent, and he never will.

Let's flip it around. If Paul would have played with Duncan and won 2 rings in the process, would you still think he's a franchise playe or even a foundation player?

[redzero]

Let's flip it around. If Paul would have played with Duncan and won 2 rings in the process, would you still think he's a franchise playe or even a foundation player?

Yes. It would have been like Kobe playing second fiddle with Shaq. Paul would probably put up better numbers with Tim's teammates than he did with the Hornets, too. It's not like playing with Timmy would prevent Paul from emerging as a franchise player. Talent like his just doesn't come and go like that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

One of the funniest parts of this site are when the Manu homers try to argue Manu could be a franchise player on an NBA team.

[dirk4mvp]

One of the funniest parts of this site are when the Manu homers try to argue Manu could be a franchise player on an NBA team.

You must not know he was the #1 guy on some overseas teams.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You must not know he was the #1 guy on some overseas teams.


O fuck I forgot, he's basically the king of minor league basketball.

[ElNono]

Yes. It would have been like Kobe playing second fiddle with Shaq. Paul would probably put up better numbers with Tim's teammates than he did with the Hornets, too. It's not like playing with Timmy would prevent Paul from emerging as a franchise player. Talent like his just doesn't come and go like that.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think there would always be a cloud over it, much like Kobe until last season, when he won it without Shaq.
Guys like Duncan and Shaq were so dominant, that it cast a big shade around everyone that played around them. Unfortunately, I don't think it's fair for guys like Manu or Tony, which I think were(Manu) and still are(Tony) the true Foundation players for the Spurs.

Then again, we can debate this ad nauseum, and probably won't agree, and that's ok with me.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Unfortunately, I don't think it's fair for guys like Manu or Tony, which I think were(Manu) and still are(Tony) the true Foundation players for the Spurs.


Are you saying the Spurs recent success has more to do with Manu and Tony than it does Duncan?

[ElNono]

Are you saying the Spurs recent success has more to do with Manu and Tony than it does Duncan?

The Spurs haven't had recent success.
But I will tell you that we wouldn't have won in 2005 or 2007 without Manu and Tony. I think all the other parts (except Duncan, obviously) had less of an impact.

That's why they call them the Big 3, not the Big 1.

And if you don't like Manu homers, you came to the wrong forum.
If it bothers you that much, feel free to go back to SunsTalk or MavsTalk or whatever you came from.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Spurs haven't had recent success.
But I will tell you that we wouldn't have won in 2005 or 2007 without Manu and Tony. I think all the other parts (except Duncan, obviously) had less of an impact.

That's why they call them the Big 3, not the Big 1.

And if you don't like Manu homers, you came to the wrong forum.
If it bothers you that much, feel free to go back to SunsTalk or MavsTalk or whatever you came from.


I said it's funny, I never said it bothered me.

And yeah, obviously the Spurs needed them to win and they were two of the top three players on the 2005 and 2007 team, all I'm saying is Duncan was the clear cut best player on both of those teams.

[duncan228]

He was one vote away from taking the NBA Finals MVP from Duncan...

Just for clarification, Manu was one vote shy of being co-MVP with Duncan, two shy of taking it. The vote was 6-4. :)

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

"Almost winning finals MVP" and "Not winning finals MVP" are the exact same thing.

[dirk4mvp]

"Almost winning finals MVP" and "Not winning finals MVP" are the exact same thing.

:lmao

I forgot about Manu fan since the Dirk vs Manu thread a while back.

[ElNono]

I said it's funny, I never said it bothered me.

And yeah, obviously the Spurs needed them to win and they were two of the top three players on the 2005 and 2007 team, all I'm saying is Duncan was the clear cut best player on both of those teams.

I never argued otherwise. My entire point cones from the premise that Duncan is our franchise player. Just saying that Manu and Tony would have to be considered Foundation players at different times, regardless of the fact they played under Duncan's shadow.

That first list is very debatable. Is JKidd a Foundation player? What about Vince Carter? Allen Iverson in his prime? Foundation or Franchise?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

:lmao

I forgot about Manu fan since the Dirk vs Manu thread a while back.


I like the thread where DAF86 told Monos that Trajon Langdon is a future HOFer.

[ElNono]

Just for clarification, Manu was one vote shy of being co-MVP with Duncan, two shy of taking it. The vote was 6-4. :)

Away in the sense TD would have had to share it. :toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I never argued otherwise. My entire point cones from the premise that Duncan is our franchise player. Just saying that Manu and Tony would have to be considered Foundation players at different times, regardless of the fact they played under Duncan's shadow.


Possibly, but the chances of either Manu or Parker winning a championship as the franchise player of their team is slim to none.

[ElNono]

:lmao

I forgot about Manu fan since the Dirk vs Manu thread a while back.

Dirk, Foundation or Fanchise? :stirpot:

[ElNono]

Possibly, but the chances of either Manu or Parker winning a championship as the franchise player of their team is slim to none.

Correct. That's why my argument was that he could have been a Foundation player, as defined in the OP, and not a Franchise player.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Correct. That's why my argument was that he could have been a Foundation player, as defined in the OP, and not a Franchise player.


K then I agree. I just jumped in the conversation at the wrong time.

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk, Fanchise

[ElNono]

To me Dirk has the talent to be Franchise, but he plays like a Foundation guy.

[dirk4mvp]

To me Dirk has the talent to be Franchise, but he plays like a Foundation guy.

How so?

[Hornets1]

Chris Paul?

Really?

50 pt playoff loss anyone , hello?

If Peja is off, Hornets are fucked

Dumbest thing Ive ever heard. Lefty, you are fucking STUPID!!!!

[Hornets1]

stupid list. does not make sense at all. there are franchise players but no such thing as foundation guys. what the fuck is that?

franchise players:
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Al Jefferson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard

You and Lefty are both Fucking Stupid. Paul is undoubtedly a top 5 talent and the best floor leader in the NBA.

[redzero]

You and Lefty are both Fucking Stupid. Paul is undoubtedly a top 5 talent and the best floor leader in the NBA.

They hate Chris Paul. You can't really expect that much from them.

[Chieflion]

I said almost 20 years because of Zeke....
Can I consider the 2004 Pistons being run by Billups who was the main guy as a PG led team to win a championship? Then again, that team had great balance and 5 starters who are versatile and do whatever they can.

[Allanon]

You take away the David Stern-rigged Pau Gasol deal, and Kobe has 0 finals MVPs.

You take away "The Tank" and the last decade of basketball would have been very different. What if Portland hadn't taken Sam Bowie? What if Shaq and Kobe had actually gotten along?

You can't selectively point out one "WHAT IF" event and determine a player's career/team's success. Practically every champion and every loser has a "What IF?" situation that could have changed the course of their franchise.

[Allanon]

Can I consider the 2004 Pistons being run by Billups who was the main guy as a PG led team to win a championship? Then again, that team had great balance and 5 starters who are versatile and do whatever they can.

Wasn't that the year that the Pistons had 4 All-Stars? As you said, that was an extremely balanced team...no Superstars but they had 4 All Stars in their prime. I think they're the only team in the last 20,30,40? years to win a trophy without a Superstar.

Excluding the 2004 Pistons, anybody know when the last time a Championship team didn't have a SuperStar?

[JamStone]

1979 Sonics

And the Pistons had 4 all stars in 2006. Ben was their only all star in 2004.

[Culburn369]

"Almost winning finals MVP" and "Not winning finals MVP" are the exact same thing.

& you can toss "Winning finals MVP" into that shit pile as well. Take 'em all outside and put 'em into the dumpster.

[Allanon]

1979 Sonics

And the Pistons had 4 all stars in 2006. Ben was their only all star in 2004.

Thanks for the clarification...wow, I can't believe that roster won a championship....I'd only heard of Dennis Johnson and Paul Silas (as a coach). Gus Williams I had never even heard of before until I looked it up.

[Allanon]

You are a dumbass, which is the most meaningful message your post delivers us.

And you are a scured' little bitch troll too afraid to post under your regular name. That's the most meaningful message your post delivers us.

[ezau]

when you talk about franchise guys, you can't leave this guy out, afterall, he's the The Franchise

http://blogs.nydailynews.com/knicks/archives/7lu0fkbf.jpg

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[ElNono]

How so?

He doesn't have the leadership attributes/mental fortitude that true Franchise players have. He's got the size and the talent, but he's lacking in the character/mental department.
IMO, obviously.

[I. Hustle]

Did you see what Garnett did in Boston?! I mean he is the very definition of franchise. You can't put just any 7 footer in with a group that includes minor role players like Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, David Stern, the refs, etc. and expect to win.

[Culburn369]

Then tell the Faker bandwagoner fanboy to stop criticizing Wade.

But, the criticism of Wade was legit and necessa.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What, are you his bitch? You can give Wade all the credit you think he deserves, he's still not a franchise player. He wont play hurt, he's never played a full season, and three times in six years he never played more than 60 games, twice he's only played 50 games, and his only shining moment was staring in the worst officiated game in the history of sports which coined him the nick-name D-Whistle. This is not a franchise player.


Well, Wade did play a full season last year, IMO 79 games is a full season. He's also played hurt before, remember 2007 when he decided to delay shoulder & knee surgery because he wanted to make his best attempt possible to repeat? Granted his team got swept, he played hurt. Still, I agree, he is not a "franchise player".

IMO, there are only two "franchise players" in the NBA right now, Lebron and Kobe, who are good enough where they only need one all star caliber sidekick (Gasol), a good 3rd wheel who can lead the 2nd unit and then play a certain role in the 4th quarter (Odom). That's what a franchise player is in my mind. Being the best player on a 45-50 win team doesn't make you a franchise player.

So KG, Ray Allen and Pierce, none of them are franchise players since they all at one point or another needed the other two to pick up the slack cause they are all too inconsistent to carry a team wire to wire. In 2006, when the league was weak as it gets, Wade was a franchise player, but not in today's NBA, the 2006 Heat would barely be a top 10 team right now.

[hitmanyr2k]

:lol people arguing over this franchise player, foundation player stuff. Fuck outta here with that garbage. It's a TEAM game. Without "foundation" players you don't have "franchise" players. Without the foundation players those "franchise" players would be nothing but losers putting up big numbers on mediocre teams...similar to where Wade is right now and where Kobe was just a few years ago, and Paul Pierce and so on.

[DJB]

Kobe Bryant: The best player of his generation. As well as he has played for these past two seasons to get the Lakers back to the elite strata, I still think his 2005-2006 season -- where he averaged 35 ppg (a ridiculous figure in the modern NBA) and almost led that lame Lakers squad to a first round upset of the Suns -- was when you really saw a Franchise Guy at work.


:lol

Duncan could have taken that squad to a title.

[all_heart]

I'm having a hard time with the term "franchise player". I think there are 2 different categories of franchise players:

Category A: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, LJ - guys that can get it done on both sides of the floor, carry a decent team into at least the 2nd round of playoffs.

Category B: Great players that excel in their positions that need a little extra talent around them to make it deep into post season due to either size, defensive limitations, or styles. IMO there is where players like Paul and Dirk fall into.

Fire at will :)

[Culburn369]

:lol

Duncan could have taken that squad to a title.

Seriously, has Duncan ever been put upon via a Smush or a Walton, and then able to persevere and win the NBA Title? I know he took Robinson kickin' & screamin' to the end, but, anything worse than that?