Should Bogans be waived?

[ceperez]

Pre-season record:

21 minutes, 0 out of 6
13 minutes, 0 out of 3
21 minutes, 1 out of 5

All his shots, except for one of them are from the 3point line.

So, apparently the Spurs he wants him to fire from the 3point line.

Okay, then what is his career averages from that range?

0.350 3P%

Not really that great.

Now let's look at his playoff record. In 07-08 he hit an even worse:

0.333 3P% that's playing 29.3 minutes per game.

Again, nothing to write home about.

Well Bogans once has a game where he hauled down 12 rebounds. But let's look at his record:

3.2 rebounds per game. Decent for a guard, same rebound rate as Udoka.

All I can really conclude about Bogans is that he's about as good as Udoka. He's physically about the same. However, Udoka prior to being signed by the Spurs had a career 0.406 from the 3pt line in the previous season.

All I can really say in his defense is that he didn't turn over the ball much. 1 TO for 23.4 MPG. But maybe that's just the result of his style of play.

[Mel_13]

As supernumeraries go, he's no Marcus Haislip.

[m33p0]

The Bogans fallout (http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/courtside/2009/10/in-defense-of-t.html)
By Jeff McDonald

On Sept. 23, the Spurs somewhat surprisingly signed veteran guard Keith Bogans to a guaranteed minimum contract, making him the last man in for training camp.

...
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136834&page=3

[Spurs Brazil]

No, keep him and Hairston, waive Williams

[ceperez]

As supernumeraries go, he's no Marcus Haislip.

Yeah, Haislip isn't doing that well either. But he's not throwing bricks like Bogans.

His record:

8 minutes, 0-1
15 minutes, 2-4
16 minutes, 1-1

Besides, the word is out that the Spurs are impressed with him in practice and Popovich did say that he was still learning the system. I haven't heard any high praise recently about Bogans from anywhere.

[yavozerb]

Kind of look like bowens offensive stats...The spurs did not sign him for his offense.

[ceperez]

Kind of look like bowens offensive stats...The spurs did not sign him for his offense.

Bowen offensive stats???!

Bowen has a career .393 from the 3pt line.

Besides, Bowen is listed at 6-7, Bogans is listed at 6-5. 6-5, who at that height are we so desperately in need of defending?

[Mel_13]

Yeah, Haislip isn't doing that well either. But he's not throwing bricks like Bogans.

His record:

8 minutes, 0-1
15 minutes, 2-4
16 minutes, 1-1

Besides, the word is out that the Spurs are impressed with him in practice and Popovich did say that he was still learning the system. I haven't heard any high praise recently about Bogans from anywhere.

A normal distribution on a 15 man roster would be:
6 Bigs
6 Swings
3 PGs

Among the 14 players with guaranteed contacts:
Haislip is the 7th big
Bogans is the 5th swing

Bogans has a proven NBA track record as a rotation player on a contending, defensive minded team, Haislip has yet to prove that he has any NBA-level skills.

Both have guaranteed contracts and neither will be moved anytime before Dec 15th, but Haislip is clearly more superfluous on this roster than Bogans.

Oh, one more thing. The guy getting abused by Rob Kurz is not going to be a Dirk stopper.

[Danny.Zhu]

Man, it's just pre-season. Give him some more time.

I watched many of his games when he was with the Rockets as a backup for T-Mac. Trust me, although not that good, he definitely worth a vet-min.

[TJastal]

Pre-season record:

21 minutes, 0 out of 6
13 minutes, 0 out of 3
21 minutes, 1 out of 5

All his shots, except for one of them are from the 3point line.

So, apparently the Spurs he wants him to fire from the 3point line.

Okay, then what is his career averages from that range?

0.350 3P%

Not really that great.

Now let's look at his playoff record. In 07-08 he hit an even worse:

0.333 3P% that's playing 29.3 minutes per game.

Again, nothing to write home about.

Well Bogans once has a game where he hauled down 12 rebounds. But let's look at his record:

3.2 rebounds per game. Decent for a guard, same rebound rate as Udoka.

All I can really conclude about Bogans is that he's about as good as Udoka. He's physically about the same. However, Udoka prior to being signed by the Spurs had a career 0.406 from the 3pt line in the previous season.

All I can really say in his defense is that he didn't turn over the ball much. 1 TO for 23.4 MPG. But maybe that's just the result of his style of play.

I agree, this signing doesn't make much sense at all. If Pop wanted someone with NBA experience that can play some defense he should've just held on Udoka or resigned Bruce Bowen. Either of those two also had the advantage of having extensive experience with the spurs system.

Overall, the Bogans' signing is a stain on what had been a perfect off season of moves.

[ceperez]

Oh, one more thing. The guy getting abused by Rob Kurz is not going to be a Dirk stopper.

Are you talking about Mahinmi?

[ceperez]

Overall, the Bogans' signing is an stain on what had been a perfect off season of moves.

Agree.... that's what its looking more and more like.

[Mel_13]

Are you talking about Mahinmi?

Did you see the game? I was there and I assure you that Haislip was attempting, and failing, to guard the offensive force that is Rob Kurz.

[ceperez]

Did you see the game? I was there and I assure you that Haislip was attempting, and failing, to guard the offensive force that is Rob Kurz.

:-(

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Sure. Waive Bogans. Why not.

Hey I've got another idea. You know that car you have that you don't like any more? But you're still making payments? How about you give me that car, but you still make the payments. Sound like a good deal? OK, I'll be right over.

[benefactor]

You should be waived.

[Riverwalkman]

I don't think Spurs would wavie him...

It's clear that if Spurs wavies him, his contract would still count against team's salary.

[ElNono]

Kind of look like bowens offensive stats...The spurs did not sign him for his offense.

I think that's the idea, that the guy be Bowen 2.0
Unfortunately, he doesn't shot anywhere near the same clip as Bruce, and he's nowhere near the same one on one defender that Bruce was in his prime.

But since we guaranteed his contract, we can only basically trade him. The question is when does Pop finally gets convinced that the guy is not Bowen, and is dead weight.

[Spursfan092120]

I think we are forgetting that Bogans was not signed for his brilliant offense. He's a defensive player, and was signed to try to be a stopper against big scorers. I'm sure Bowen didn't destroy people on offense when he first came here. Let's give the guy a few games before we lynch him.

[ElNono]

I think we are forgetting that Bogans was not signed for his brilliant offense. He's a defensive player, and was signed to try to be a stopper against big scorers. I'm sure Bowen didn't destroy people on offense when he first came here. Let's give the guy a few games before we lynch him.

Don't worry, it took Pop two seasons to give up on the Udoka experiment.
Bogans is going to be around for a while...

[SpurCharger]

Bogans Will Be ok.... Haislip Is versatile being able to play the 4 and some 3.... I like Marcus Williams Upside but i think he has to go....

[FromWayDowntown]

If Bogans is going to be waived, it won't be caused by his stats in preseason games. Aside from Darius Washington, who was also certainly great in practices a couple of preseasons ago, I can't think of anyone whose fate with a Popovich-coached team was determined by preseason stats -- whether good or bad.

[MaNu4Tres]

Letting go of a proven player over 5 pre-season games because of his shooting is very pre-mature.

Especially considering he's been a 35 percent shooter from downtown during his 7 year career.

Especially considering he signed for the minimum.

And especially since he's a defensive specialist.

Wise Popovich wouldn't be like the OP and waive a player who has proven things during his 7 year career in the NBA just because of five pre-season games.


Marcus Williams will be cut again. And Hairston will make the final roster spot.

[picnroll]

So far Bogans appears to be be an excellent candidate for the nearly annual "Nick Van Exel Stupid Pop Vet Pickup Award".

[Darkwaters]

The Bogans signing is fine. If he was brought into to play 30 MPG I'd be upset, but considering the likely size of his role hes about as good as we could have hoped for. No, hes not Richard Jefferson, Dejuan Blair or Antonio McDyess. Hes not as sexy of a signing as those guys. But he could be a difference maker in a small role off the bench as the 5th or 6th wing. And he offers decent depth in case of injury.

[ceperez]

Actually, Bogans is a decent end of bench player (13th to 15th) for most any NBA team. There's not much to debate about that.

However, my real question is this:


Would you waive Malik Hairston for Bogans?

(Please don't answer by having to waive someone else)

BTW... I would like to keep Marcus Williams, not because he's proven much, but his height is intriguing for a point guard.

[Mel_13]

Actually, Bogans is a decent end of bench player (13th to 15th) for most any NBA team. There's not much to debate about that.

However, my real question is this:


Would you waive Malik Hairston for Bogans?

(Please don't answer by having to waive someone else)

If Malik had a guaranteed contract, it would be stupid to waive him now.

Bogans has a guaranteed contract, it is stupid to waive him now.

[benefactor]

If Malik had a guaranteed contract, it would be stupid to waive him now.

Bogans has a guaranteed contract, it is stupid to waive him now.
It's incredible how difficult this is to understand.

[ceperez]

If Malik had a guaranteed contract, it would be stupid to waive him now.

Bogans has a guaranteed contract, it is stupid to waive him now.

Which means... under the current conditions, you would waive Malik?

Sounds just like the Scola debacle. Economics over sanity.

[MaNu4Tres]

Would you waive Malik Hairston for Bogans?[/SIZE][/B]

(Please don't answer by having to waive someone else)

BTW... I would like to keep Marcus Williams, not because he's proven much, but his height is intriguing for a point guard.

Waive Marcus Williams. Hairston gets 15th spot.

[Mel_13]

Which means... under the current conditions, you would waive Malik?

No, I would keep him using the 15th roster spot.

The Spurs do not need to waive anyone to keep Malik. They only need to decide he is worth the additional 1.5M in payroll costs.

Waiving Bogans or keeping Bogans is irrelevant to Malik's status with the Spurs.

[admiralsnackbar]

Which means... under the current conditions, you would waive Malik?

Sounds just like the Scola debacle. Economics over sanity.

Economics define sanity -- it's a business.

[Mel_13]

Which means... under the current conditions, you would waive Malik?

Sounds just like the Scola debacle. Economics over sanity.

Do you understand that if they waive Bogans they have to pay his full salary and luxury tax? There are no savings to be gained by cutting him and there is an available roster spot to keep Malik.

[ceperez]

Do you understand that if they waive Bogans they have to pay his full salary and luxury tax? There are no savings to be gained by cutting him and there is an available roster spot to keep Malik.

Dude... so you would waive Hairston for Bogans if there was no roster spot available for both?

See that's where we differ. I would waive Bogans and be man enough to eat the costs for my poor decision.

[Muser]

You do understand the Bogans will get 2 shots at the most per game, right?

[Mel_13]

Dude... so you would waive Hairston for Bogans if there was no roster spot available for both?

See that's where we differ. I would waive Bogans and be man enough to eat the costs for my poor decision.

So after all your arguments have failed based on the real world situation, you now introduce a hypothetical. I thought we were discussing decisions actually available to the Spurs today. In the real world, the Spurs do not face such the choice you have just introduced.

For the record, given your hypothetical, if I had to waive a player on a guaranteed contract to make room for Hairston, I would waive Haislip before I would waive Bogans.

[MaNu4Tres]

Some ST members really should be limited in starting threads.

[peacemaker885]

Some ST members really should be forbidden from starting threads.

Not really forbidden, but maybe limited.

[TJastal]

Letting go of a proven player over 5 pre-season games because of his shooting is very pre-mature.

Especially considering he's been a 35 percent shooter from downtown during his 7 year career.

Especially considering he signed for the minimum.

And especially since he's a defensive specialist.

Wise Popovich wouldn't be like the OP and waive a player who has proven things during his 7 year career in the NBA just because of five pre-season games.


Marcus Williams will be cut again. And Hairston will make the final roster spot.

Its funny how some people are desperately trying to justify this signing. Will you still be saying this 25 games into the season when Bogans is shooting under 30% still?

So let me get this straight.. why if Popovich wanted a veteran with more experience than Hairston or Williams, why didn't he just keep Udoka, who's career shooting % is superior to Bogans (3 pt shooting % is too). Udoka was available for awhile, waiting for an offer from the spurs camp and never got one so he signed with Portland. Bruce Bowen also shot superior, 42% from downtown last year, why wasn't he given an offer?

late edit: Just noticed Udoka didn't shoot well last year for the spurs, even those his career averages are still better. :D

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Dude... so you would waive Hairston for Bogans if there was no roster spot available for both?

See that's where we differ. I would waive Bogans and be man enough to eat the costs for my poor decision.

Dude, how difficult is it to understand that no player with a guaranteed contract is likely to be waived before any player who is not guaranteed. And yes, this includes the Dirk stopper as well. Chill! Bogans will be fine.

[MaNu4Tres]

Its funny how some people are desperately trying to justify this signing. Will you still be saying this 25 games into the season when Bogans is shooting under 30% still?

So let me get this straight.. why if Popovich wanted a veteran with more experience than Hairston or Williams, why didn't he just keep Udoka, who's career shooting % is superior to Bogans (3 pt shooting % is too). Udoka was available for awhile, waiting for an offer from the spurs camp and never got one so he signed with Portland. Bruce Bowen also shot superior, 42% from downtown last year, why wasn't he given an offer?

Oh wait, .. right... Keith Bogans is a "defensive specialist". Silly me, forgot about that.

Law of averages will play out during the course of a season.

Not 5 games.

Ask George Hill if last year's Summer League was indicative on how his season went last year.

[benefactor]

Dude... so you would waive Hairston for Bogans if there was no roster spot available for both?

See that's where we differ. I would waive Bogans and be man enough to eat the costs for my poor decision.
http://www.mattcrews.com/images/ask-stfu.jpg

[sa_kid20]

Dude... so you would waive Hairston for Bogans if there was no roster spot available for both?

See that's where we differ. I would waive Bogans and be man enough to eat the costs for my poor decision.

This isn't even an issue because Marcus Williams hasn't done much and Hairston has looked very impressive. No way in hell Williams takes the 15th spot over Hairston at this point. Bogans doesn't have to do with anything. Either you're confused or just making up hypothetical situations for some reason.

[crc21209]

Nope. Hairston and Bogans will make the team, and Williams will be cut. End of story...

[Spursfan 87]

just waive Williams. He is not going to play anyway. He is not use to the spurs this season.

[MaNu4Tres]

So let me get this straight.. why if Popovich wanted a veteran with more experience than Hairston or Williams, why didn't he just keep Udoka, who's career shooting % is superior to Bogans (3 pt shooting % is too). Udoka was available for awhile, waiting for an offer from the spurs camp and never got one so he signed with Portland. Bruce Bowen also shot superior, 42% from downtown last year, why wasn't he given an offer?

late edit: Just noticed Udoka didn't shoot well last year for the spurs, even those his career averages are still better. :D

It's not just veteran experience Popovich wanted, the Spurs FO and Pop made a late decision to have a valuable insurance policy with the addition of Bogans that can bring it on the defensive end and that can hit the open three. Bogans is a great addition for the minimum, especially if Mason or Finley go down with an injury considering Manu will be resting on back to backs. Bogans is pretty much the best you can do for a piece of the puzzle that is content with being the 5th or 6th option at the wing. Finding a player who is content with that role is hard to find and for the minimum? It's great

Udoka wasn't going to be the answer considering he regressed significantly both offensively and defensively.

From what I know Bowen wasn't brought back because Bowen wanted to be a significant piece if he was to play again. Something he didn't enjoy last year being on the bench in favor of Mason, Finley, Udoka ( at times). He didn't want to milk his last year or years on the end of the bench being a cheerleader, he's one of the best competitors the Spurs have ever had so it's understandable.

You can't find a better 5th or 6th option at the wing around the league than Bogans. Especially if he is content with that role and especially if he won't cause friction in the locker room.

[TJastal]

Law of averages will play out during the course of a season.

Not 5 games.

Ask George Hill if last year's Summer League was indicative on how his season went last year.

George Hill getting PT in the early part of the season was more a product of Parker being out w/ an injury, rather than Pop showing faith in his young player and being generous w/ getting him minutes so he could develop.

As soon as Parker came back he went back to limited minutes. And even those dwindled to nothing by the end of the year in favor of Jacque Vaughn.

I guess you could say Pop had an "epiphany" mid playoffs and started to play Hill again, who promptly responded by being one of the best playoff performers on the squad.

Did Pop learn from this? That wow..yes sometimes young players really CAN contribute, that its not about how many years you've logged or minutes you played.

Nope, didn't learn a thing.

[MaNu4Tres]

George Hill getting PT in the early part of the season was more a product of Parker being out w/ an injury, rather than Pop showing faith in his young player and being generous w/ getting him minutes so he could develop.

As soon as Parker came back he went back to limited minutes. And even those dwindled to nothing by the end of the year in favor of Jacque Vaughn.

I guess you could say Pop had an "epiphany" mid playoffs and started to play Hill again, who promptly responded by being one of the best playoff performers on the squad.

Did Pop learn from this? That wow..yes sometimes young players really CAN contribute, that its not about how many years you've logged or minutes you played.

Nope, didn't learn a thing.


I was talking about shooting percentages when I stated, " Law of averages will play out".

George Hill shot below 20 percent in the Summer League last year after 6 games or so. That wasn't indicative on the type of season he had last year.

Same should go with Bogans after 5 pre-season games.

[Chomag]

I know some of you are saying not to worry, that Hairston will get the 15th spot. However the FO has hinted that they want to go with only 13 players....so ya.

[MaNu4Tres]

I know some of you are saying not to worry, that Hairston will get the 15th spot. However the FO has hinted that they want to go with only 13 players....so ya.

They have 14 players under contract with guaranteed contracts.



So yeah.

[TJastal]

I was talking about shooting percentages when I stated, " Law of averages will play out".

George Hill shot below 20 percent in the Summer League last year after 6 games or so. That wasn't indicative on the type of season he had last year.

Same should go with Bogans after 5 pre-season games.

I'm all for giving Bogans a fair chance but I'd rather not it being at the expense of a young player with a great upside like Hairston. It's been mentioned that Hill, Hairston, and Blair have shown some real cohesion playing together and so far the stats back that up, and it would be a shame if Hairston loses his opportunity now.

[Chomag]

I was talking about shooting percentages when I stated, " Law of averages will play out".

George Hill shot below 20 percent in the Summer League last year after 6 games or so. That wasn't indicative on the type of season he had last year.

Same should go with Bogans after 5 pre-season games.

I guess the Pre-season is not there for evaluation anymore?

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm all for giving Bogans a fair chance but I'd rather not it being at the expense of a young player with a great upside like Hairston. It's been mentioned that Hill, Hairston, and Blair have shown some real cohesion playing together and so far the stats back that up, and it would be a shame if Hairston loses his opportunity now.

The signing of Bogans has nothing to do with Hairston. If Hairston continues to perform well, he will be given opportunities. Bogans is more of an insurance policy for injuries, foul trouble, future trades, ect. R.C has said that they have never seen a player improve as significantly as Hairston has in one off-season.

Hairston will be given an opportunity.

[DJB]

Sure. Waive Bogans. Why not.

Hey I've got another idea. You know that car you have that you don't like any more? But you're still making payments? How about you give me that car, but you still make the payments. Sound like a good deal? OK, I'll be right over.


:lol

[TJastal]

The signing of Bogans has nothing to do with Hairston. If Hairston continues to perform well, he will be given opportunities. Bogans is more of an insurance policy for injuries, foul trouble, future trades, ect. R.C has said that they have never seen a player improve as significantly as Hairston has in one off-season.

Hairston will be given an opportunity.

I hope he gets alot of opportunities, unlike his counterpart Hill last year.

Last year watching Hill's minutes slowly evaporate over the season was tough, especially after he picked up the slack nicely for TP when he went down. Then to be thrown into the fray mid-playoffs after having been kicked to the bench .. geesh...I can only imagine what these guys must be going through playing under Popovich... it really must suck.

[Blackjack]

Did you see the game? I was there and I assure you that Haislip was attempting, and failing, to guard the offensive force that is Rob Kurz.

Mel, you're holdin' out on us!

If you get the time, I'd love to see you give us your own 'Game Thoughts' on the game.

I've got an idea..

How 'bout you give us, 'Mel's 13 Thoughts?':hat

[angelbelow]

First and foremost I trust whatever the coaching staff decides. I just wish we had an opportunity (esp those out of town) to watch Bogan's contribute defensively. That way we would have a better idea how well he would be able to help us out this year.

[Mel_13]

I hope he gets alot of opportunities, unlike his counterpart Hill last year.

Last year watching Hill's minutes slowly evaporate over the season was tough, especially after he picked up the slack nicely for TP when he went down. Then to be thrown into the fray mid-playoffs after having been kicked to the bench .. geesh...I can only imagine what these guys must be going through playing under Popovich... it really must suck.

Have you seen all the interviews with Hill this year? He really looks damaged by the treatment he received at the hands of evil Pop. What fortitude these players have, winning year after year despite the terrible mind games. They're so psychologically damaged that, not only do they not complain while on the team, they continue to praise him after leaving the team.

Also, Hill's minutes did not "slowly evaporate over the season'. They took a sharp drop for the last 14 games of the season.

[EricB]

WTF, why does Williams get the pass?

Why is it between Hairston and Bogans?

Williams will and better be bleeping cut.

Also

Bogans >>>>>> Udoka.

[Mel_13]

Mel, you're holdin' out on us!

If you get the time, I'd love to see you give us your own 'Game Thoughts' on the game.

I've got an idea..

How 'bout you give us, 'Mel's 13 Thoughts?':hat

:lol

I am merely a simple fan who does not possess the necessary basketball acumen for such a task.

But if I did....

1. Timmy and Shaq went at it like a regular season game

2. Even from the balcony, watching LeBron on the break is a fearful sight

3. I love Hairston's game. He had a couple of really pretty baseline drives and just seemed to fit in on both sides of the ball.

4. Tony looks sharp. He had some some nice spin moves that left his defender far behind.

5. Tony and Mason were on a 2 on 1 against LeBron. Neither wanted to take it to the rim and they wound up pulling the ball out and running the offense. Tim was still under the basket on the other end and had to trudge up court.

6. Bogans defended well. All but one of shots, as I recall, were open and within the offense. One of the misses went more than half way down, and only one shot missed badly.

7. Haislip is not an NBA player today.

8. I look forward to seeing many more 18 footers from McDyess

9. Tim's 4th foul was a hard, playoff-type, foul to prevent LeBron from dunking. LeBron seemed to really get pissed and was complaining to the ref, perhaps asking for a flagrant. Timmy just looked at him like he was crazy.:lol

10. Cleveland played Shaq and Z together for a stretch in the first half, TD and Bonner looked very small by comparison.

11. The ovation that Blair received when he came into the game was similar to the reaction when Manu enters the game. There was actually a small group with homemade Blair 45 t-shirts

12. Timmy has been coaching Blair. When the group breaks up coming out of a timeout, you see Timmy with his arm around Blair and talking to him for the last 10-15 seconds before play resumes.

13. Halftime was long enough to watch nearly the entire 6th inning of the Yankee game.

[Spurlady]

Thanks Mel, good comments for those of us that couldn't watch the game.

[duncan228]

Thanks Mel_13. Appreciate the first-hand account.


Timmy has been coaching Blair. When the group breaks up coming out of a timeout, you see Timmy with his arm around Blair and talking to him for the last 10-15 seconds before play resumes.

This is so great for everyone. Blair gets mentored by one of the greatest to ever play, and Duncan gets to pay it forward, something he's talked about after his experience with Robinson. It's going to be something to watch Blair grow.

[SenorSpur]

Thanks Mel_13. Appreciate the first-hand account.



This is so great for everyone. Blair gets mentored by one of the greatest to ever play, and Duncan gets to pay it forward, something he's talked about after his experience with Robinson. It's going to be something to watch Blair grow.


That's what makes the Spurs such a class organization. It's that type of mentoring and teamwork that - in large part - has created the winning culture that we're all familiar with. It mostly started with Big Dave.

As cool as it was to see Dave mentor Tim, it's also just as cool to see Tim now passing that down to the youngsters. Too bad Blair likely wont have as much time to play with Tim as Tim did with Big Dave.

[TJastal]

Have you seen all the interviews with Hill this year? He really looks damaged by the treatment he received at the hands of evil Pop. What fortitude these players have, winning year after year despite the terrible mind games. They're so psychologically damaged that, not only do they not complain while on the team, they continue to praise him after leaving the team.

Also, Hill's minutes did not "slowly evaporate over the season'. They took a sharp drop for the last 14 games of the season.

Great for George, that he survived his first year with Pop. All I'm saying is it must not have been an easy rookie season seeing his game minutes bounce around more erratically than a pinball, and then to find himself basically benched for the latter part of the season only to be reactivated in the thick of a playoff series. Playing for Pop must be akin to braving the world's biggest rollercoaster. :king

[TIMMYD!]

He's not going to play much anyways.

[benefactor]

Thanks for the first hand account Mel_13. Can't wait until the season.

[ajh18]

Bowen only shot something like 35% on threes when he joined the Spurs also. His average skyrocketed when he joined the Spurs' system.

Now that Bogans IS signed, we might as well just consider the facts as they are now. Cutting him will mean the Spurs still pay his contract. Signing Hairston will cost the Spurs another $1.5 million or something like that. I love his game, but I wouldn't blame the Spurs for not thinking he's worth that much yet.

The FO is spending a lot on Blair, 'Dyess and Jefferson. If saving a couple million here and there on players who will barely play makes the ownership more comfortable and able to spend on real impact players like those three, I'll take that trade-off every time. It's easy to say "I'd just take the financial hit" when it's not a few million of my dollars being flushed down the toilet. Spending that on winning is one thing. Spending on barely proven potential that will make minimal difference if any is another.

Edit: All that said, I'd rather have Bruce back than Bogans, and I'd rather have someone like Dahntay Jones than both Hairston AND Bogans. But again, not my money, and I'm happy with everything the FO has done.

[Spursfan092120]

Waive Marcus Williams. Hairston gets 15th spot.
this +100000000000000000

[Blackjack]

:lol

I am merely a simple fan who does not possess the necessary basketball acumen for such a task.

But if I did....

I love how you start off with the humility and than proceed to prove how ridiculous it is to say that you don't possess 'the necessary basketball acumen'; as if that's ever truly stopped most that do pontificate on this board.:lol

'Mel's 13 Thoughts' looks to have a future; that's if they're to be presented by Blackjack21. -- Hey, I'll give you the name and idea, but you can't expect me to not take ANY credit. :hat --

Well done, Mel.:toast

[MaNu4Tres]

Thanks for the timvp impression Mel. Well done my friend.

I've missed you. How have you been?

[flipspursfan]

Hey spurs fans, I'm not really an "in the know guy" but i hope they don't waive Bogans or Hairston. Bogans, as we all know was signed by the Spurs because of his defensive tenacity, plus stats really don't matter that much to Pop as long as the guy can be used and is giving it his all. I think Bogans can be the Spurs' perimeter stopper. As for Hairston, he has really improved from last years summer league and his stint with the Toros, you can really see that he can know play in the big leagues, and besides, he's still young so we can still expect a lot of improvement from him. If the Spurs want to take someone out, i think it should be either by trade or waiving an unproved player who still hasn't proven his worth(Marcus Williams).

Go Spurs Go!

[DPG21920]

I love how you start off with the humility and than proceed to prove how ridiculous it is to say that you don't possess 'the necessary basketball acumen'; as if that's ever truly stopped most that do pontificate on this board.:lol

'Mel's 13 Thoughts' looks to have a future; that's if they're to be presented by Blackjack21. -- Hey, I'll give you the name and idea, but you can't expect me to not take ANY credit. :hat --

Well done, Mel.:toast

You dirty little traitor.

[Blackjack]

You dirty little traitor.

I figured I should have notified you that Blackjack21 was looking to expand his clientele..

Don't worry, Tell 'Em.

Blackjack21 may be getting big-time -- and the first-person references are only going to get worse from here on out -- but that just means Blackjack21's going to have more means and 'pull' to help out a client like yourself..

You're the first ever to don Blackjack21's sponsorship and Blackjack21 doesn't take that likely; Blackjack21 is nothing if not loyal.

Blackjack21's got your back, Tell 'Em.

Blackjack21 is just doing what Blackjack21 is supposed to do.

Doubling down.:hat

[Mel_13]

Thanks for the timvp impression Mel. Well done my friend.

I've missed you. How have you been?

All is well, looking forward to games that count.

[Mel_13]

I love how you start off with the humility and than proceed to prove how ridiculous it is to say that you don't possess 'the necessary basketball acumen'; as if that's ever truly stopped most that do pontificate on this board.:lol

'Mel's 13 Thoughts' looks to have a future; that's if they're to be presented by Blackjack21. -- Hey, I'll give you the name and idea, but you can't expect me to not take ANY credit. :hat --

Well done, Mel.:toast

:lol

Agent's fees, naming rights, it might be too much, too fast.

Do you accept SpursTalk Cash as a form of payment?

[AussieFanKurt]

they better fucking keep hairston

[kenson-q]

they better fucking keep hairston
They have no reason to waive this guy IMO.

[portnoy1]

Spurs may be keeping these guys so they can be used in a trade. Mason Jr. is a great shooter, but unfortunately alot of his heroics were due to a game-long lack of defense from the spurs as a team. The lakers was a prime example. He hit a tough shot and dumb derek fisher was in the wrong place at the wrong time. We led that game by 12 in the beggining of the fourth or something and Lakers came back and took the lead for a while. That was a high scoring game for the spurs, everbody was making shots, but spurs couldn't stop anybody. A Spurs-like Defensive effort would have won the game and kept the lakers in their rear-view mirror. Finley can only shoot now. And Bonner is making $3million cause he is 6-10 and can launch 3's. Bogans will stay since he can play D and hit shots, However the spurs maybe stocking up on wings and bigs to make a 3 for 2 trade or something to get a Center and Wing-defender. Options - Blazers ( Pryzbilla and Fernandez/outlaw ) Bobcats ( Diop and Bell ) Rockets ( Scola and Battier ) Pacers ( Murphy and Dantay Jones ) Bogans is a keeper, but Finley/Mason Jr./Matt Bonner/Ian Mahinmi are all on the chopping block for possible trades to get a 7 footer and Wing Defender combo. Some of those trades may not seem possible considering contracts and stuff, and the teams involved. Rebounding and Wing defending is going to be a priority amongst the FO ( assuming that Blair is treated like a POP rookie = not enough playing time to make a big impact ). Thats why I think another trade is brewing, and thats why I suggested trades above.

[coyotes_geek]

Again with trading for Diop huh? :lol

[portnoy1]

Again with trading for Diop huh? :lolI'm not big on diop, but i am big on having a 7foot center and a wing Defender. Better yet if Malik Hairston who is young, athletic and has been solid Defensively can hit shots ( open 3's ) then I am a go for Hairston starting at the 2 and trading to get a shot-blocking Center, With Diop not even being a last option.

[HarlemHeat37]

Diop and Bell would be a useless trade..I've watched 2 of the Bobcats preseason games so far, and Bell's defense looks horrible..he's definitely lost a lot IMO..Diop is beyond horrible..

There's no chance that Portland trades Pryzbilla and Rudy, especially not a rival..no chance..I would love having Pryzbilla, but it's just very unlikely..

Rockets aren't trading Scola back to us, wtf?..Battier would obviously interest me, but I don't see it..

Indiana is possible, but that trade doesn't interest me..Dahntay Jones is 100% athleticism and nothing else at all..Hairston can be better than Jones for less $ in a year or 2, maybe even this year IMO..Murphy doesn't give us a shot blocking presence, which is what we potentially lack..

[portnoy1]

Were one piece away from having an edge on the lakers. If you have a shotblocking C that means that guys like bogans can get up in someones grill and force them baseline to the help. Example 99' finals, Slow Mario Elie was playing tight D on fast Latrell sprewell knowing he had Duncan/Robinson at the Rim. If you have a perimeter Defender then the help isn't as important. You can have a Decent C at the Rim cause a solid wing-Defender will slow a player down without needing that much help. Example 2009' West Semi-finals Battier didnt have anyone significant protecting the Rim but he still managed to give Kobe a hardtime.

[Blackjack]

:lol

Agent's fees, naming rights, it might be too much, too fast.

Do you accept SpursTalk Cash as a form of payment?

Proper credit and SpursTalk Cash should suffice.:tu

Stick with Blackjack21, Mel, and you're going straight to the top; that is of a Spurs message board loaded with some rather questionable and, otherwise unseemly, characters.:hat

[HarlemHeat37]

Were one piece away from having an edge on the lakers. If you have a shotblocking C that means that guys like bogans can get up in someones grill and force them baseline to the help. Example 99' finals, Slow Mario Elie was playing tight D on fast Latrell sprewell knowing he had Duncan/Robinson at the Rim. If you have a perimeter Defender then the help isn't as important. You can have a Decent C at the Rim cause a solid wing-Defender will slow a player down without needing that much help. Example 2009' West Semi-finals Battier didnt have anyone significant protecting the Rim but he still managed to give Kobe a hardtime.

I don't disagree that we need another shot blocker..I just don't think any of those guys are legit options..

[MaNu4Tres]

Diop and Bell would be a useless trade..I've watched 2 of the Bobcats preseason games so far, and Bell's defense looks horrible..he's definitely lost a lot IMO..Diop is beyond horrible..

There's no chance that Portland trades Pryzbilla and Rudy, especially not a rival..no chance..I would love having Pryzbilla, but it's just very unlikely..

Rockets aren't trading Scola back to us, wtf?..Battier would obviously interest me, but I don't see it..

Indiana is possible, but that trade doesn't interest me..Dahntay Jones is 100% athleticism and nothing else at all..Hairston can be better than Jones for less $ in a year or 2, maybe even this year IMO..Murphy doesn't give us a shot blocking presence, which is what we potentially lack..

I have watched Bell as well. It is slightly pre-mature to label Bell as horrible since it is pre-season, but I have noticed what you have noticed. Maybe he took the McDyess/ Duncan route this off-season and is just now working back into shape.

I really honestly can see Hairston earning some minutes this year like the way Stephen Jackson did in 2003. Maybe not as significant, but so far (from some sources) the Spurs love his game and are taken back by how much of a stride he has taken in one year in improving his game in all phases on both sides of the court. Look for him to get some run and keeping it.

That all being said I don't foresee any of those trade situations playing out. Although come the deadline and if we look like we may be missing a piece Nocioni could be a more realistic possibility.

[HarlemHeat37]

I have watched Bell as well. It is slightly pre-mature to label Bell as horrible since it is pre-season, but I have noticed what you have noticed. Maybe he took the McDyess/ Duncan route this off-season and is just now working back into shape.

I really honestly can see Hairston earning some minutes this year like the way Stephen Jackson did in 2003. Maybe not as significant but so far from some sources the Spurs love his game and are taken back how much of a stride he has taken in one year. Look for him to get some run and keeping it.

That all being said I don't foresee any of those trade situations playing out. Although come the deadline and if we look like we may be missing a piece Nocioni could be a more realistic possibility.

The deadline will definitely be the best scenario..maybe Hairston will have stepped up and earned a spot, which is very possible, and would fill a need..maybe Ratliff will be our shot blocker..too early to tell..

The positive is that we have some assets to make moves in our expiring contracts..if we need a Nocioni or a Jackson or a Camby, it'll be possible with the assets IMO..

good position to be in..

[coyotes_geek]

I'm not big on diop, but i am big on having a 7foot center and a wing Defender. Better yet if Malik Hairston who is young, athletic and has been solid Defensively can hit shots ( open 3's ) then I am a go for Hairston starting at the 2 and trading to get a shot-blocking Center, With Diop not even being a last option.

If you're not big on Diop, why do you keep suggesting the Spurs trade for him? He sucks, he has a bad contract. End of story.

[portnoy1]

If you're not big on Diop, why do you keep suggesting the Spurs trade for him? He sucks, he has a bad contract. End of story.he is a good post defender and takes up space in the paint, Decent shotblocker.

[portnoy1]

I don't disagree that we need another shot blocker..I just don't think any of those guys are legit options..Name some C's or Wing Defenders you would go after.

[MaNu4Tres]

Hairston reallly could end up making some two-guards on our roster expendable. I won't mention any names because people think I have something against the guy, but that's not the case.

The Spurs are faced with a dilemna this off-season to resign Manu, the possibility of Splitter joining forces with Duncan finally, and to also address any other needs at years end. If they don't plan on giving Mason a contract worth 5-7 million ( his value) this off-season, then Spurs would be wise to trade him this year to get something back for not only this year but the ensuing years as well. Hairston's play the first three months of this year will be factor for this to possibly play out. Spurs love Mason, but sometimes better business is better business.

[portnoy1]

Hairston reallly could end up making some two-guards on our roster expendable. I won't mention any names because people think I have something against the guy, but that's not the case.

The Spurs are faced with a dilemna this off-season to resign Manu, the possibility of Splitter joining forces with Duncan finally, and to also addressing any other needs at years end. If they don't plan on giving Mason a contract worth 5-7 million ( his value) this off-season, then Spurs would be wise to trade him this year to get something back for not only this year but the ensuing years as well. Hairston's play the first three months of this year will be factor for this to possibly play out. Spurs love Mason, but sometimes better business is better business.Made Perfect Sense. Who do people think you have a problem with?

[coyotes_geek]

he is a good post defender and takes up space in the paint, Decent shotblocker.

No, he's not a good post defender. He commits twice as many fouls as shots he blocks. He's big. That's all he's got going for him. And in a complicated system like the Spurs run, simply being big isn't enough.

[portnoy1]

No, he's not a good post defender. He commits twice as many fouls as shots he blocks. He's big. That's all he's got going for him. And in a complicated system like the Spurs run, simply being big isn't enough.Thats funny, he sure gave Duncan some problems. But anywho, who do you feel the spurs need to get to the top again, a C or Wing Defender or both?

[coyotes_geek]

Thats funny, he sure gave Duncan some problems. But anywho, who do you feel the spurs need to get to the top again, a C or Wing Defender or both?

Gee, if he's so good at defending Duncan, I wonder why the mavs got rid of him?

I think the Spurs have enough to get to the top. That being said if the Spurs can get a skilled center, I'm all for it. But those guys are few and far between. And Diop sure as hell isn't skilled. Unskilled players do not help us.

[portnoy1]

Neither do undersized Centers ( BONNER ) and to a lesser extent Mcdyess ( although he can hold his own he is only 6-9 )

[portnoy1]

Bynum 7-1 / Gasol 7-0 / Odom agile 6-10 with athleticism how do we defend against them then? Bonner is going to be huge in a Series against the lakers won't he, Kinda like he was huge in the Series vs the Mavs. Only then he couldn't handle 7-0 Erika Dampier. I'm sure he will be able to be our 3rd big guarding Bynum/Gasol/Odom

[coyotes_geek]

Neither do undersized Centers ( BONNER ) and to a lesser extent Mcdyess ( although he can hold his own he is only 6-9 )

Bonner > Diop
McDyess >>>>>> Diop

[coyotes_geek]

Bynum 7-1 / Gasol 7-0 / Odom agile 6-10

3 guys against whom Diop doesn't help us.

[HarlemHeat37]

Odom isn't anything to worry about, as I keep saying..he can't create his own offense..he's a good rebounder and defender..his offense isn't anything significant other than his ability to be a finisher..we should worry about him as a rebounder/defender/finisher, not as a creator in any way..

Bynum and Gasol will be tough to guard, so we'll have to see how we stack up..Duncan will take Bynum, and McDyess will take Gasol..we'll have to see how it looks..it's not like there are many guys that can guard Gasol anyways..

[portnoy1]

Odom isn't anything to worry about, as I keep saying..he can't create his own offense..he's a good rebounder and defender..his offense isn't anything significant other than his ability to be a finisher..we should worry about him as a rebounder/defender/finisher, not as a creator in any way..

Bynum and Gasol will be tough to guard, so we'll have to see how we stack up..Duncan will take Bynum, and McDyess will take Gasol..we'll have to see how it looks..it's not like there are many guys that can guard Gasol anyways..
The height advantage is what im worried about. Gasol 7-0 shot over the head of Boozer 6-9 last season in the playoffs with absolute ease. Im sure he can do the same with Mcdyess. We need a 7footer that can move his feet. Not fast but decent. And that gasol cant just shoot over the top off.

[MaNu4Tres]

Odoms length on the offensive boards is what hurts the Spurs the most. Lakers getting two-three shots per possesion is detrimental to the Spurs and has been since the Grizzlies donated Gasol to the Lakers.

Hopefully the addition of McDyess/ Blair can limit the shots per possesion to just one on most possesions when the battles play out between the Spurs and Lakers.

[coyotes_geek]

The lakers length is most definitely a concern. I'm all for finding a guy who can help in that department. Unfortunately for the Spurs, teams who have guys like that aren't going to give them up for the collection of spare parts that people here are willing to offer. Nor does that mean the Spurs should just go out and get someone based solely on how tall they are.

[portnoy1]

There's Camby!!! but his injuries are a concern

[DPG21920]

What was the deal the Spurs had done for Camby last year before they backed out?

[spursfan1000]

I would say give him a little more time to get on a hot streak, he is a good defender and it will take him a little time to get a customed to our offence.

[coyotes_geek]

What was the deal the Spurs had done for Camby last year before they backed out?

I know Hill was involved. I want to say Thomas, Bowen & Hill.

[gospursgojas]

I don't agree with waiving Bogans merely for the fact that his money is guaranteed.

I do agree that his signing was a mistake. If his signing was purely for defensive reasons, why not keep Bruce?

[portnoy1]

I know Hill was involved. I want to say Thomas, Bowen & Hill.
and Oberto i think as well.

[portnoy1]

I'm sorry, It was Oberto/Hill/Bowen. No Thomas. Just looked it up

[coyotes_geek]

^^^ You're right. Good find.

[HarlemHeat37]

Camby would be fine, but I doubt the Clippers trade him to us unless we're giving up Hill or Blair, or some kind of future picks package in addition to the matching salaries required..

[portnoy1]

Camby would be fine, but I doubt the Clippers trade him to us unless we're giving up Hill or Blair, or some kind of future picks package in addition to the matching salaries required..
I dont wanna give up blair and I dont wanna give up hill unless that Rubio Rumor comes true. Also Camby could get hurt; however his salary comes off at the end of the year. Camby gone after the 1 yr and then welcome Splitter with open arms and some money too.

[HarlemHeat37]

The fact that he's an expiring contract is why I don't think the Clippers would do it unless we give a sweetener..

I wouldn't mind Camby as a 1-year rental at all, but we'd have to get a 3rd team involved IMO..

I'd like to see how Ratliff looks first though, he might be good enough to give us good minutes in certain matchups..

[portnoy1]

The fact that he's an expiring contract is why I don't think the Clippers would do it unless we give a sweetener..

I wouldn't mind Camby as a 1-year rental at all, but we'd have to get a 3rd team involved IMO..

I'd like to see how Ratliff looks first though, he might be good enough to give us good minutes in certain matchups..
thats kinda my problem, Certain matchups ala Kevin Willis. I want another 7 footer next to Tim for 82games and 25 minutes who can block shots and get rebounds and help own the paint and intimidate others teams guards.

[Blackjack]

The lakers length is most definitely a concern. I'm all for finding a guy who can help in that department. Unfortunately for the Spurs, teams who have guys like that aren't going to give them up for the collection of spare parts that people here are willing to offer. Nor does that mean the Spurs should just go out and get someone based solely on how tall they are.

Agree.:tu

At this point, the Spurs are going to have to piecemeal their 3-6 bigs in the hopes that they'll be enough. The chances of landing the coveted 7' to oppose a Lakers front line just aren't all that great; given where the likely candidates are located and what the Spurs have to offer in return.

Hopefully Hairston can come through on the perimeter defensively, to where he can play alongside RJ in stretches, when it counts, and that goes a long way in shoring up that question mark.

With Duncan, 'Dyess, Ratliff, Blair and Mahinmi the Spurs have the personnel to make the Lakers' front line shoot over the top and do a credible job defensively. But we only know that Duncan and 'Dyess will do a good to credible job, the rest are open question marks due to age and inexperience; Theo possessing an abundance of the former.

If the Spurs are unable to upgrade the front line, significantly, their best hope might be in the likes of Blair and Mahinmi.

If Blair and Mahinmi -- the former I'm less optimistic for in the upcoming year, at least, when it matters -- can warrant the playing time in the playoffs, they could go a long ways in determining the outcome. They've got games that put pressure on the opposition's front line defensively, and that pressure usually results in the accumulation of fouls; it's a lot easier to defend 7' when it's seated on the bench.

Duncan and 'Dyess, good health willing, is a hell of a tandem and doesn't allow the opponent to cheat off Tim like they did in the past. And if Theo can give some minutes, and one or both of Blair and Mahinmi come into their own, there could be just enough defense and offensive-pressure being applied from the Spurs' front line to get them over the top.

It's a lot of 'if's' and question marks, but that's what's expected when you're relying on 33+yr-old vets at the top of your big rotation and 20/22yr-old's at the bottom.

[DPG21920]

That would be a b*tch to have to give up Hill in a trade, but I don't see any other way if the Spurs even wanted to get the Clippers attention. I still don't know the reason the Clips backed out, so I don't know if Hill would be enough anymore. I would give up Blair before Hill in this scenario because I believe Hill's role is more vital.

I don't know if it would be worth it, but it would be interesting....I believe something like Bonner/Fin/Hill/Williams works. Saves the Clips 2M this year, they get to keep their cap space for next year bc they all expire (or could next year) and they get an asset in Hill.

Getting a 3rd team would make things easier on the Spurs but more complicated overall.

[portnoy1]

That would be a b*tch to have to give up Hill in a trade, but I don't see any other way if the Spurs even wanted to get the Clippers attention. I still don't know the reason the Clips backed out, so I don't know if Hill would be enough anymore. I would give up Blair before Hill in this scenario because I believe Hill's role is more vital.

I don't know if it would be worth it, but it would be interesting....I believe something like Bonner/Fin/Hill/Williams works. Saves the Clips 2M this year, they get to keep their cap space for next year bc they all expire (or could next year) and they get an asset in Hill.

Getting a 3rd team would make things easier on the Spurs but more complicated overall.Pop loves hill and wont trade him, now that he knows what he's got. Blair aint going no where, even though Pop hasn't given him deserving praise. And Pop loves Finley and Bonner for some odd reason.

[DPG21920]

Well he did try and trade Hill last year, and I don't think his "love" for Hill is completely genuine. It is just how Pop can get the best from Hill; at least Pop thinks so.

[Mel_13]

Pop loves hill and wont trade him, now that he knows what he's got. Blair aint going no where, even though Pop hasn't given him deserving praise. And Pop loves Finley and Bonner for some odd reason.


You're not getting Camby for spare parts. Obtaining him will cost actual assets.

[portnoy1]

You're not getting Camby for spare parts. Obtaining him will cost actual assets.
I not so sure. The only legit asset in last years trade was hill an unproven hill at that. Oberto's heart gave him problems and Bowen was not as quick as he'd been in previous years. If you call them assets then Bonner/Finley are assets as well.

[Mel_13]

I not so sure. The only legit asset in last years trade was hill an unproven hill at that. Oberto's heart gave him problems and Bowen was not as quick as he'd been in previous years. If you call them assets then Bonner/Finley are assets as well.

Hill was and is a promising player on a cheap rookie contract. He is an asset. Blair is a promising player on a cheap, rookie contract. He is an asset. They are the type of assets that a team like the Clippers would want.

Bowen, Thomas, Finley, Bonner were/are expiring contracts to make the numbers work. You have to include something from the list of Hill, Blair, or draft picks to get the attention of the Clippers. They are not going to trade a valuable player on an expiring contract just for a collection of smaller expiring contracts.

[DPG21920]

How would yall feel about giving up either Hill or Blair + expiring contracts to get Camby? I am not sure the Clips would even consider it seeing how they backed out last year.

[HarlemHeat37]

Clippers would definitely do it IMO, they're going to lose Camby anyways..I wouldn't do it though for the Spurs..I'm very high on both Blair and Hill, even for this season..

Just looking around the league at some bigs, I'm not really sure who else we could get though..

Brendan Haywood would be perfect, but he would only be a 1-year rental, so I wouldn't give up Hill and/or Blair for him, which is what we would have to give up no matter what..

Gortat would be nice, although he's overpaid, but I don't think Orlando would just dump him..

Marc Gasol would be fine too, but I don't think the Lakers would allow their farm team to salary dump him to us..

Kaman is very possible, but I'm just not a fan of his game at all, and he has heavily struggled against Bynum..

Biedrins and Turiaf are both overrated as defenders, but I guess it could be a possibility..

I can't really think of anything else off the top of my head..another salary dump doesn't look likely for a quality big man..only the Lakers seem to get those..

[DPG21920]

Thing is, Camby might be a guy the Spurs can sign for cheap next year without giving up Blair or Hill. The question would be: do the Spurs have enough this year to get by the Lakers and everyone else in the West where they can afford to let another precious year with Duncan pass, in hopes of bolstering their roster next season? Or cannot they not afford to run the risk this year and possibly miss out on someone signing somewhere else next year?

Not sure, but the first half of the season should give us those answers.

[Blackjack]

There may have been a trade in the works last year, but it was also one the Clippers ultimately declined; not the Spurs.

And just because they were open to it then, doesn't mean they'd still be open to it. They were a floundering team with a bloated payroll and contemplating shedding a contract. Now, they've got a promising rookie, the start of a new season, and the hope that comes along with all that.

Shedding Camby's salary when he had 2yrs left might have made sense then, thus, taking back expirings was an attractive allure, but even then they needed a prospect to be enticed; a prospect, Hill, they deemed not enticing enough.

Maybe come the trade deadline Camby's made available after they've considerably fallen off the playoff pace, which is somewhat likely, but there's no way I'd deal Hill, and I'm starting to feel the same way about Blair, in order to get a 1-yr. rental in Camby that in no way guarantees or drastically enhances the Spurs' championship-odds.

[GatorKid117]

You guys should waive him. He does nothing well. He is an overrated defender (I would say mediocre at best), TERRIBLE finisher and mediocre 3pt shooter. All he does is camp at the 3pt line and if someone runs him off he doesn't know what to do b/c he can't hit layups. You should hope they give one of your younger guns a shot. Bogans is garbage.

[Mel_13]

Clippers would definitely do it IMO, they're going to lose Camby anyways..I wouldn't do it though for the Spurs..I'm very high on both Blair and Hill, even for this season..

Just looking around the league at some bigs, I'm not really sure who else we could get though..

Brendan Haywood would be perfect, but he would only be a 1-year rental, so I wouldn't give up Hill and/or Blair for him, which is what we would have to give up no matter what..

Gortat would be nice, although he's overpaid, but I don't think Orlando would just dump him..

Marc Gasol would be fine too, but I don't think the Lakers would allow their farm team to salary dump him to us..

Kaman is very possible, but I'm just not a fan of his game at all, and he has heavily struggled against Bynum..

Biedrins and Turiaf are both overrated as defenders, but I guess it could be a possibility..

I can't really think of anything else off the top of my head..another salary dump doesn't look likely for a quality big man..only the Lakers seem to get those..

Indiana is going to have to move at least one of Ford, Dunleavy, Murphy, or Foster in order to avoid the tax in 2010-11.

IMO, Foster's defense, rebounding, and contract would fit well.

[Blackjack]

^ ^ That'd be the type of option I'd like to see; one that enhances a weakness without weakening a strength.

[portnoy1]

Indiana is going to have to move at least one of Ford, Dunleavy, Murphy, or Foster in order to avoid the tax in 2010-11.

IMO, Foster's defense, rebounding, and contract would fit well.
So Foster or Murphy im assuming?

[benefactor]

Indiana is going to have to move at least one of Ford, Dunleavy, Murphy, or Foster in order to avoid the tax in 2010-11.

IMO, Foster's defense, rebounding, and contract would fit well.
moutainballer and I have been pushing for this in the Jeff Foster thread for months now. Adding Foster would give us the best defensive/rebounding front line in the league.

[portnoy1]

Dude hustle's ill give him that. Personally I like Murphy, He is the greater matt bonner.

[benefactor]

Dude hustle's ill give him that. Personally I like Murphy, He is the greater matt bonner.
His contract is horrible though. With Foster we would get a solid rotation big for around the market price.

[DPG21920]

He makes way too much money. Dampier for Murphy would be interesting for Dallas.

[Mel_13]

He makes way too much money. Dampier for Murphy would be interesting for Dallas.

Dirk
Murphy
Marion
Terry
Kidd

D'Antoni's dream team.

[TimDunkem]

Foster will retire a Pacer.

[benefactor]

Foster will retire a Pacer.
We'll see. Anything is possible if they become desperate to get under the tax line.

[portnoy1]

The reason I like Murphy is cause he hustle's/rebounds and he is not just a 3pt shooter, He can hit the mid-range jumper and to a certain extent put the ball on the floor. the spurs can have Foster rebound and hustle but he cant space the floor.

[DPG21920]

Dirk
Murphy
Marion
Terry
Kidd

D'Antoni's dream team.

That would be a damn scary team. Plenty of size and tons and tons of offense and rebounding. If you have Howard in that line-up, with Terry and Gooden off of the bench, that team could score a ton of points.

[mountainballer]

We'll see. Anything is possible if they become desperate to get under the tax line.

yes. a lot will happen till December 15th and even more till February 19th 2010.(or whatever the deadline date is). tax will be one issue, the other will be dumping of season and rebuilding considerations, especially of borderline PO teams, that find they won't make the cut.
the Pacers are exactly such a team IMO. and there is the announcement, that Larry Bird will quit after this season. so this team will for sure go in a new direction from summer 2010, but there is a good chance they start with rebuilding moves right at the moment, when they are out of the East PO race. their big year will be 2011, when the contracts of Murphy, Dunleavy, Ford, Tinsley and Foster expire and they get tons of cap space, but they will also go the Blazer/Thunder route and try to stockpile as many picks as possible. Foster will be 34 when his contract expires 2011, so he doesn't look like a natural fit for a team that starts (almost) from scratch. even if there were always talks about Foster being a life time Pacer, this might change quickly, when they a) try to avoid lux tax in 2010-2011 and b) think about the teams future.
so, I can see him on the market at deadline and the price will be: expiring contracts AND a pick. and the team that offers the best pick, will get the price. considering Foster only makes sense for a contender, this pick won't be much better than what also the Spurs could offer. but the deal won't happen without picks and it won't happen with 2nd rounders, as some always indicate. (multiple 2nd rounders maybe). it would be pretty much exactly the kind of deal that brought us Kurt Thomas.

[DaBears]

This is also worth mentioning if it hasn’t been stated yet, Spurs won’t cut him nor should they he is a proven player... Spurs should also keep Hairston even though he hasn’t put up godly numbers he's an athlete & good fit for spurs.. Now Williams and Jerrells i haven’t seen much from them (Williams) especially I have watched all preseason games up to now and during game time they haven’t shown much worth mentioning. I have noticed their playing time cut back significantly the last 2 games. So I would assume they are on the chopping block…..

And if we were going off strictly preseason stats that might mean we’d cut Ginobli & Jefferson too, because they haven’t put up numbers worth mentioning either…… So take preseason for what its purpose is designed for. Merely a time to get back in shape for the regulars and give new guys a chance to shine….

And if you don’t well it’s a business and we all now what happens to the unlucky ones….
Yap you guessed it shipped off to Austin (oh that is so terrible) to play the sport they love and get paid for it, still making more than 75% of us in the state of Texas…..

[ElNono]

The reason I like Murphy is cause he hustle's/rebounds and he is not just a 3pt shooter, He can hit the mid-range jumper and to a certain extent put the ball on the floor...

You just described what everyone thought of Bonner before he got here...
What nobody asked is: How's his defense?

[Chieflion]

That would be a damn scary team. Plenty of size and tons and tons of offense and rebounding. If you have Howard in that line-up, with Terry and Gooden off of the bench, that team could score a ton of points.
Still cannot play a lick of defense.

[z0sa]

How's his defense?

Solid nowadays.

[Spurs Brazil]

Marc Stein: Perimeter defense is NOT something the Spurs ignoring. Hence the signing of Bogans if it turns out that they are more vulnerable there than they anticipated andthey have to find a way to get him into the rotation. But upgrading in other areas was a bigger priority.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/preview2009/news/story?page=Spurs-Live0910

[Sean Cagney]

I agree, this signing doesn't make much sense at all. If Pop wanted someone with NBA experience that can play some defense he should've just held on Udoka or resigned Bruce Bowen. Either of those two also had the advantage of having extensive experience with the spurs system.

Overall, the Bogans' signing is a stain on what had been a perfect off season of moves.

Come on now this dude won't hurt or make or break this dude, if he is that bad he will just sit and stay there (Hopefully but knowing Pop sometimes lol).

[portnoy1]

I would like a deal in which we can get Jeff Foster/Dahntay Jones from the Pacers and give up our expiring contracts. Jeff Foster is 6-11 and is solid on the boards and is pretty good defensively. He is also a pretty good passer as well which would be good for the slashers/cutters we have on the team ( RJ/Manu ). Dahntay Jones is legitimately athletic and can DUNK ( windmills and some other stuff that spursfans see from the oppositions players ). He can't really shoot that well, but he can put it on the floor for a drive. If the spurs can pull that kind of trade they would be covered.

G - Parker / Hill
G - Jones / Manu
C - Duncan / Foster
F - RJ / Hairston
F - Mcdyess / Blair

and then the other situational guys like Haislip/Ratliff.

[portnoy1]

He has a certain pride in playing Defense. Last year he was with Denver, who was obviously a better defensive team then we were last year. Since he is motivated to Play D; Pop can train him and work with him to the point to where he can start at the 2 and play 20-25 minutes and get hustle plays to.

[rayray2k8]

This is a prime example when fans don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[rayray2k8]

I think it's time we started trusting Pop a little more. The right players are being played and the wrong one's are
being benched.

[benefactor]

Pre-season record:

21 minutes, 0 out of 6
13 minutes, 0 out of 3
21 minutes, 1 out of 5

All his shots, except for one of them are from the 3point line.

So, apparently the Spurs he wants him to fire from the 3point line.

Okay, then what is his career averages from that range?

0.350 3P%

Not really that great.

Now let's look at his playoff record. In 07-08 he hit an even worse:

0.333 3P% that's playing 29.3 minutes per game.

Again, nothing to write home about.

Well Bogans once has a game where he hauled down 12 rebounds. But let's look at his record:

3.2 rebounds per game. Decent for a guard, same rebound rate as Udoka.

All I can really conclude about Bogans is that he's about as good as Udoka. He's physically about the same. However, Udoka prior to being signed by the Spurs had a career 0.406 from the 3pt line in the previous season.

All I can really say in his defense is that he didn't turn over the ball much. 1 TO for 23.4 MPG. But maybe that's just the result of his style of play.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[benefactor]

This is the second ceperez thread about Bogans that has been bumped this week. He needs to come eat some crow.

[MaNu4Tres]

TJastal and ceperez both need to come eat some crow.

[ChumpDumper]

Overall, the Bogans' signing is a stain on what had been a perfect off season of moves.The Stain had a pretty good game.

[angelbelow]

This is a prime example when fans don't know what the hell they are talking about.

I agree, fans should never jump to conclusions, especially based off preseason statistics.

However, I can understand cepez's POV too. Bogans was struggling and he did bring up a few good points. And he didn't suggest that Bogans absolutely be waived. Overall he was looking out for the team, which is a positive thing imo.

The audience that I simply cannot tolerate are those that flat out say "we went over the luxury tax for this??" or "trade RJ!"

[TJastal]

I ate some crow already in the church of Bogans thread. :toast

I've been really harsh on Bogans, partly because I thought Hairston was deserving of the opportunity that Keith is getting. Sucks for Hairston, but Bogans is proving he was a very shrewd pickup for pennies on the dollar.

I should have listened to you guys about Bogans. :hat

[raspsa]

The Stain had a pretty good game.

Hey "Stain" is a good nickname for Bogan and his defense if he can keep it up.. as in "can't get the stain out of my######...

[PM5K]

However, I can understand cepez's POV too.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. After reading this thread one would easily be able to decipher between those that had actually seen Bogans play and those that looked at a box score to decide how good of a player they think he is.

You can't judge a player based on just his box score.

[TJastal]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. After reading this thread one would easily be able to decipher between those that had actually seen Bogans play and those that looked at a box score to decide how good of a player they think he is.

You can't judge a player based on just his box score.

I don't care how good a guy's defense is, if you go 1-19 in the pre-season your not going to be judged well. :D