Wages of Wins: Once Upon a Time in Phoenix

[duncan228]

Once Upon a Time in Phoenix (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/once-upon-a-time-in-phoenix/)

Once upon a time, the Phoenix Suns were the best team in the Western Conference. The phrase “once upon a time” often refers to a time period in the distance past. But in this instance, “once upon a time” actually refers to 20 months ago (as noted in a table posted in February of 2008 (http://www.wagesofwins.com/MidTeams0708.html)).

Although Phoenix was on top of the West, it was clear in February of 2008 that the reign of the Suns was going to soon end. The Lakers had just traded for Pau Gasol, and this move was likely going to send the Lakers to the top of the conference. In response to this move, the Suns sent Shawn Marion to the Miami Heat for Shaquille O’Neal.

Two arguments were advanced at the time of this move (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/thoughts-on-the-shaq-trade/):

1. The Suns – as they were constructed on February 1 of 2008 – were not going to win a title in 2008. And since there was a good chance Marion was going to leave Phoenix anyway, something had to be done.

2. The trade for Shaq was not going to bring a title to Phoenix. In fact, this move would make Phoenix worse.

Now that 20 months have passed – and Shaq has moved on to Cleveland — we can now completely review the Shaq era in Phoenix. This review consists of one sentence: A title didn’t come to Phoenix and the Suns did indeed decline.

Once Upon a Time Last Season

In 2008-09, the Suns not only failed to contend, the team failed to make the playoffs. And when we look at Table One we can see part of the reason for this failure.


Table One: The Phoenix Suns in 2008-09 (http://www.wagesofwins.com/Phoenix0809.html)

Last season the Suns were led in Wins Produced by Steve Nash. Although Nash produced 11 wins, his 0.213 WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes], this was his lowest mark since arriving in Phoenix in 2004. Nash is now 35 years of age, so one suspects age is the primary reason why he declined.

Unfortunately for the Suns, age also impacted the productivity of Shaq. O’Neal’s WP48 of 0.167 was actually his best mark since 2005-06. But it was a far cry from the 0.332 mark that Shaq averaged before he passed 30 years of age.

Next on the list is Grant Hill. Like Shaq, Hill was above average. But his WP48 of 0.149 was far below the 0.274 average mark he posted in Detroit (from 1994-95 to 1999-00).

If we move further down the list we see Amare Stoudemire. In 2004-05, 2006-07, and 2007-08 (Stoudemire missed virtually all of the 2005-06 season), Stoudemire posted a WP48 mark in excess of 0.200. Last year – primarily due to injury, his mark was only 0.106.

So we see, except for the effect of age and injury, Phoenix might have had an incredible team last year. Just imagine a team with Nash, Shaq, Hill, and Stoudemire both healthy and in their prime. These four players alone could produce more than 70 wins in a season. At least, once upon a time they could. Unfortunately, age will eventually lead to less production and injuries will happen.

Are Better Times Coming?

As a consequence, Phoenix struggled last years and now this team has to do quite a bit to get back to the top of the Western Conference. In the summer of 2009, though, the first steps back didn’t look very impressive. In the draft the Suns selected Earl Clark, a player who was below average in college last year (http://www.wagesofwins.com/PAWS40Draft09.html) (even if we think of him as a small forward).

After drafting Clark, the Suns then signed Channing Frye. According to ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/depth?team=pho) (and Yahoo.com (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/pho/depthchart)), Frye is currently expected to start for the Suns in 2009-10. Just to review, Frye


■ was a lottery pick of the New York Knicks (and Isiah Thomas) in 2005.

■ was traded to Portland after two seasons in New York.

■ started 94 of 274 games with the New York Knicks and the Portland Trail Blazers.

■ has produced -1.4 wins and posted a -0.012 WP48 in his career.

If we follow the permutations of the starting line-up in Phoenix, we now see that Phoenix has gone from Shawn Marion, to an old Shaquille O’Neal, and now to Channing Frye. One doesn’t need Wins Produced to see that this isn’t progress.

When we look over the current depth chart in Phoenix, it’s not immediately apparent how Phoenix is going to match the team’s win total from last year (a record, once again, that wasn’t even good enough to make the playoffs).

Potential First String

PG: Steve Nash [11.0 Wins Produced, 0.213 WP48]

SG: Jason Richardson [7.6 Wins Produced, 0.152 WP48]

SF: Grant Hill [7.6 Wins Produced, 0.149 WP48]

PF: Amare Stoudemire [4.3 Wins Produced, 0.106 WP48]

C: Channing Frye [-2.3 Wins Produced, -0.146 WP48]

Potential Second String

PG: Goran Dragic [0.1 Wins Produced, 0.006 WP48]

SG: Leandro Barbosa [4.6 Wins Produced, 0.130 WP48]

SF: Jared Dudley [1.6 Wins Produced, 0.065 WP48]

PF: Louis Amundson [1.5 Wins Produced, 0.067 WP48]

C: Robin Lopez [-1.5 Wins Produced, -0.114 WP48]

The Wins Produced of these players only sum to 34.5, suggesting Phoenix is going to have problems in 2009-10.

Despite these numbers, fans of the Suns will emphasize the injury to Stoudemire. Had Amare been healthy last year the Suns probably would have made the playoffs. And if Stoudemire is healthy this next season – and as productive as he was two years ago – then Phoenix should win more than half their games.

Contention in the West, though, is going to require more than this. It appears that the following teams will contend for the conference title (listed in alphabetical order): Dallas Mavericks, LA Lakers, Portland Trail Blazers, and San Antonio Spurs. And we expect the Denver Nuggets, New Orleans Hornets, and the Utah Jazz will make the playoffs. Phoenix does appear to be the leading candidate to complete the playoff picture out West. But it seems unlikely that this team will contend for a title.

So where will Phoenix go from here? Nash and Hill are not getting any younger. After these two talents, though, the only above average performers on the roster are Stoudemire, Richardson, and Barbosa. In other words, given the age of Nash and Hill, Phoenix is going to have to add some talent if it hopes to contend again in the future. Until that happens, Phoenix fans are simply going to have think about “Once upon a time, Phoenix was the best team in the Western Conference….”

- DJ

[JMarkJohns]

Wrote this last march, shopped it around, but nobody bought it. Didn't get too much feedback beyond disbelief that I was critical of Sarver, or one "I can't print that" about my critiques of Sarver. Oh well.. their loss. As for most who might be surprised that I'm defending itty-bitty ball, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. In fact, my explanation as to why I'm not is another article entirely. In truth, I was OK with a number of moves/move-ons that occured, but within the greater context, I just couldn't pretend like the moves were made by people who knew what they were doing.

The Death Of Fun
By JMarkJohns

Dearly departed: We are gathered here today, not to celebrate what was, but rather lament what could have been.

Family, friends, fans… It didn’t have to end this way.

The year is 2004. The iconic and much beloved owner of the Phoenix Suns, Jerry Colangelo, sells his majority shares to Arizona-raised and educated, Robert Sarver. Fans of the franchise are excited to see ownership of the Suns stay localized. Surely Sarver would understand the plight of fans desperate for their first NBA Championship.

Roughly 40 years after the team’s institution in the “Valley of the Sun” fans could sense a title was close. The fanbase was so hungry they could taste it. Along the way they gobbled up everything Robert Sarver threw their way; about how fiscal responsibility was the best way to keep the team competitive, and how having only content and happy players gave the team the chemistry necessary to win.

So blinded by optimism were they to see the sly hand of sabotage moving season after season. Shielded by the many promises, fans were too distracted by the beauty they beheld on the court to notice rotating door off it.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Prize”

Things started off with a boon. Sarver inherited a team with talent at every position but one: point guard. He went out and backed up his big talk of titles by paying for prodigal Sun, Steve Nash, a multiple-time All-Star PG who was returning to Phoenix six seasons after requesting a trade out of town. The youthful talent was the framework of this metaphorical Ferrari. Nash was the motor.

Expectations outside of Phoenix were low. Many thought the Suns too young to be truly competitive. It made sense, being that the Suns had the youngest average age of any team in the League that season.

Still, there was a spark. They played with passion and reckless abandon every night. You could see they were enjoying themselves. Their motto, “Seven Second Or Less,” spoke to their ability to score within the first seven seconds of the 24-second offensive shot clock. They quickly became media darlings, providing the shot in the arm that the League had been missing for years. Their final point total routinely hit 120 in a league at a time when just over 95 was the average.

Basketball was fun again.

Despite losing to the much more experienced San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference Finals, optimism flooded the streets. A title was imminent. It wasn’t a question of if, or even when, but rather how many.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Lies”

The 2005 offseason became crucial to the Suns future. Key players were up for free agency or contract extensions and the Suns needed to address the issues of experience and toughness exposed in their series versus the Spurs.

Sarver, unlike most owners, did more than just sign the checks. He dealt with contract negotiations himself, only occasionally taking the input of those hired for the process.

Sarver told the players he’d allow the market to dictate the total of the extensions he’d offer. Only, once the market surprised Sarver with the cost, Sarver balked at the expense it would take to re-sign everybody.

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.

Sarver proceeded to save face. He blustered, “Johnson isn’t going anywhere. We will match that offer.” Only the offer never came and Johnson was ultimately traded to the Hawks in a cost-cutting move. In the four years since his trade, Johnson has been named an All-Star three times.

The next offseason, Sarver again stood in front of cameras and claimed to be making room to re-sign playoff hero, perimeter forward Tim Thomas. Only the signing never came. Sarver said he would pay whatever it took, only he didn’t. Thomas signed with the Los Angeles Clippers.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Demise”

The road to their final resting place wasn’t brought about only by a failure to re-sign young players. Along the way the Sarver-run Suns had held a total of 11 first-round draft picks. Only Sarver couldn’t justify spending money on young, unproven players, and thus traded eight of the eleven picks.

Along with the eight picks, out were Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Steven Hunter, Tim Thomas, James Jones and Shawn Marion, whose average age at the time of departure was roughly 26. In their place were Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, Brian Grant, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill and Shaquille O’Neal, whose average age at the time of replacement was roughly 32.

Without the influx of youth via the draft, the run-n-fun quickly became huff-n-puff. Many feared the added age would become an anchor to the Suns’ speedboat style. In reality, the age became concrete shoes, and only hastened their demise. While true that he team needed experience, also true is that Sarver sacrificed the future on the altar of the immediate simply to save money. Every pick traded and every player allowed to walk saved him millions.

Sarver, however, didn’t reserve fiscal fascism with players only. Bryan Colangelo, 2005 Executive Of The Year, was let go in 2006. Colangelo went on to win Executive Of The Year honors again just one season later in Toronto. Mike D’Antoni, 2005 Coach Of The Year, was allowed to walk in 2008. Many credit D’Antoni for the rise of the Suns.

. . . . .

“Final Resting Place”

Now we fans watch the 7-foot, 340-pound O’Neal lumber up the same court where the svelt, 6-7, 230-pound Marion once glided.

The Suns have made the playoffs every season in Sarver’s tenure as owner. Five seasons, five postseasons. But today, looking up at the final playoff spot in the west, the Suns are set to miss out on the playoffs.

Ladies, gentlemen...Family, friends, fans, it’s only the latest of what they have missed out on.

[duncan228]

Nice piece JMarkJohns. Have you done others? Who did you shop it to?

[JMarkJohns]

Nice piece JMarkJohns. Have you done others? Who did you shop it to?

I was a sports writer for a handful of years at a The Sun of Yuma, Arizona. I shopped it to Arizona Republic and East Valley Tribune, each through a former colleague. Figured I had a connection. People may be mad at Sarver, but nobody wants to call him on anything. Never figured anyone would bite, but figured it worth a shot. I wrote it for a board I moderate at. They enjoyed it.

[Culburn369]

They were right there though for just a moment until they let themselves get "Horryed"...they have august company though: Sacramento got worse "Horryed" and Detroit even worser "Horryed."

Horry is the prince of fucking darkness.

[phyzik]

They were right there though for just a moment until they let themselves get "Horryed"...they have august company though: Sacramento got worse "Horryed" and Detroit even worser "Horryed."

Horry is the prince of fucking darkness.

...and I loved him all the more for it during his tenure with the Spurs.

I have no qualms about feeling all warm and fuzzy inside whenever I read an article about the Suns death and knowing the Spurs had a large part in their execution. :toast

Their fans, at the time, where some of the most obnoxious and annoying. More-so than Dallas and Laker fans can ever be (at least for me).

While you are somewhat annoying Cul, I generally laugh at most of your posts because I know someone is going to bite (I've done it several times) but during those few years when the Suns where competitive some of their fans would actually downright piss me off with their obnoxiousness. :lol


P.S.

tee, hee

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wrote this last march, shopped it around, but nobody bought it. Didn't get too much feedback beyond disbelief that I was critical of Sarver, or one "I can't print that" about my critiques of Sarver. Oh well.. their loss. As for most who might be surprised that I'm defending itty-bitty ball, that's not necessarily what I'm saying. In fact, my explanation as to why I'm not is another article entirely. In truth, I was OK with a number of moves/move-ons that occured, but within the greater context, I just couldn't pretend like the moves were made by people who knew what they were doing.

The Death Of Fun
By JMarkJohns

Dearly departed: We are gathered here today, not to celebrate what was, but rather lament what could have been.

Family, friends, fans… It didn’t have to end this way.

The year is 2004. The iconic and much beloved owner of the Phoenix Suns, Jerry Colangelo, sells his majority shares to Arizona-raised and educated, Robert Sarver. Fans of the franchise are excited to see ownership of the Suns stay localized. Surely Sarver would understand the plight of fans desperate for their first NBA Championship.

Roughly 40 years after the team’s institution in the “Valley of the Sun” fans could sense a title was close. The fanbase was so hungry they could taste it. Along the way they gobbled up everything Robert Sarver threw their way; about how fiscal responsibility was the best way to keep the team competitive, and how having only content and happy players gave the team the chemistry necessary to win.

So blinded by optimism were they to see the sly hand of sabotage moving season after season. Shielded by the many promises, fans were too distracted by the beauty they beheld on the court to notice rotating door off it.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Prize”

Things started off with a boon. Sarver inherited a team with talent at every position but one: point guard. He went out and backed up his big talk of titles by paying for prodigal Sun, Steve Nash, a multiple-time All-Star PG who was returning to Phoenix six seasons after requesting a trade out of town. The youthful talent was the framework of this metaphorical Ferrari. Nash was the motor.

Expectations outside of Phoenix were low. Many thought the Suns too young to be truly competitive. It made sense, being that the Suns had the youngest average age of any team in the League that season.

Still, there was a spark. They played with passion and reckless abandon every night. You could see they were enjoying themselves. Their motto, “Seven Second Or Less,” spoke to their ability to score within the first seven seconds of the 24-second offensive shot clock. They quickly became media darlings, providing the shot in the arm that the League had been missing for years. Their final point total routinely hit 120 in a league at a time when just over 95 was the average.

Basketball was fun again.

Despite losing to the much more experienced San Antonio Spurs in the Western Conference Finals, optimism flooded the streets. A title was imminent. It wasn’t a question of if, or even when, but rather how many.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Lies”

The 2005 offseason became crucial to the Suns future. Key players were up for free agency or contract extensions and the Suns needed to address the issues of experience and toughness exposed in their series versus the Spurs.

Sarver, unlike most owners, did more than just sign the checks. He dealt with contract negotiations himself, only occasionally taking the input of those hired for the process.

Sarver told the players he’d allow the market to dictate the total of the extensions he’d offer. Only, once the market surprised Sarver with the cost, Sarver balked at the expense it would take to re-sign everybody.

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.

Sarver proceeded to save face. He blustered, “Johnson isn’t going anywhere. We will match that offer.” Only the offer never came and Johnson was ultimately traded to the Hawks in a cost-cutting move. In the four years since his trade, Johnson has been named an All-Star three times.

The next offseason, Sarver again stood in front of cameras and claimed to be making room to re-sign playoff hero, perimeter forward Tim Thomas. Only the signing never came. Sarver said he would pay whatever it took, only he didn’t. Thomas signed with the Los Angeles Clippers.

. . . . .

“Eyes On The Demise”

The road to their final resting place wasn’t brought about only by a failure to re-sign young players. Along the way the Sarver-run Suns had held a total of 11 first-round draft picks. Only Sarver couldn’t justify spending money on young, unproven players, and thus traded eight of the eleven picks.

Along with the eight picks, out were Johnson, Quentin Richardson, Steven Hunter, Tim Thomas, James Jones and Shawn Marion, whose average age at the time of departure was roughly 26. In their place were Kurt Thomas, Raja Bell, Brian Grant, Boris Diaw, Grant Hill and Shaquille O’Neal, whose average age at the time of replacement was roughly 32.

Without the influx of youth via the draft, the run-n-fun quickly became huff-n-puff. Many feared the added age would become an anchor to the Suns’ speedboat style. In reality, the age became concrete shoes, and only hastened their demise. While true that he team needed experience, also true is that Sarver sacrificed the future on the altar of the immediate simply to save money. Every pick traded and every player allowed to walk saved him millions.

Sarver, however, didn’t reserve fiscal fascism with players only. Bryan Colangelo, 2005 Executive Of The Year, was let go in 2006. Colangelo went on to win Executive Of The Year honors again just one season later in Toronto. Mike D’Antoni, 2005 Coach Of The Year, was allowed to walk in 2008. Many credit D’Antoni for the rise of the Suns.

. . . . .

“Final Resting Place”

Now we fans watch the 7-foot, 340-pound O’Neal lumber up the same court where the svelt, 6-7, 230-pound Marion once glided.

The Suns have made the playoffs every season in Sarver’s tenure as owner. Five seasons, five postseasons. But today, looking up at the final playoff spot in the west, the Suns are set to miss out on the playoffs.

Ladies, gentlemen...Family, friends, fans, it’s only the latest of what they have missed out on.


A nice prelude to what we're gonna be watching this season (as I watch Philly abuse Phoenix on the offensive glass in a pre season game).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

And Phoenix was never the best team in the WCF. They couldn't get it done. Enough stories about how good the Suns were, how bout stories that discuss what the Suns should be doing.

[JMarkJohns]

Yeah, the rebounding is going to be terrible. When Amare is your best rebounder, you're in deep shit.

[JMarkJohns]

And Phoenix was never the best team in the WCF. They couldn't get it done. Enough stories about how good the Suns were, how bout stories that discuss what the Suns should be doing.

I've written those as well. Nobody wants to hear about the three-team trade that Sarver nixed that would have brought Camby and Mike Miller to Phoenix for Marion (to Memphis, who sends Swift/Lowry to Denver). Sarver nixed that for the expense taken on, even though it's likely the only trade that helps them once Garnett for Amare is nixed by Minnesota.

I'd love to rip Sarver for all his mistakes. I've done so repeatedly in post. Unfortunately, nobody - and I almost literally mean nobody - cares. Nobody cares to hear about all the players Sarver drafted/traded or passed on by trading the picks. Nobody cares to hear how D'Antoni misused Kurt Thomas and James Jones, two of the teams better defenders, in that 2007 series vs. the Spurs. Nobody cares to hear that there were times when D'Antoni literally benched a player for committing a foul when said player was only trying to play a modicum of defense - namely Amare - which directly resulted in apathetic, incapable defenders. Nobody cares to hear that without defense and rebounding, the Suns may not have even made the Finals vs. Utah, even had they gotten past San Antonio in 2007.

I could go on. Again, this wasn't written because I believe every word I said in it. I believe in every instance I get to blame Sarver, and wanted to burst every Suns fans' bubble that, 1. under Sarver's watch, the Suns have only ever gotten worse, 2. that under Sarver, the future is dim, and 3. that even when they were the most fun team in the League, they failed in the most important facet of the game: winning a Title.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I agree with everything you said 100%, and again, the problem is no one cares. For every fan like you or me, there 50 fans who do nothing more than read the Paul Coro, Dan Bickley and Paola Boivin fluff articles and in their mind every fan should be a ra ra GO SUNS!!! Cheerleader who never question something the team does.

[JMarkJohns]

Stupidity disgusts me... It doesn't take much at all to be informed in your opinion, not vomit up crap spoon fed you by the media. Jerry Colangelo actually owned a stake of the Republic. I wonder if this stake was part of the deal that Sarver purchased? If so, there's your BS factor of the Republic.

[JMarkJohns]

You want the truth? Can ANYONE handle the truth?

What's my issues with Robert Sarver?

2004, Sarver starts what will be a long running tradition of selling 1st-round picks. This time for a future 1st and a 2004 2nd, passing on the opportunity to land Deng, Iguodala, Al Jefferson and Biedrins.
04-05, balks at giving Joe Johnson a 6-year, 50 million dollar deal, sticking to his guns at 6 years 45 million, telling JJ to go earn his contract extension, which JJ does, then...
2005, balks at giving JJ market value. After Redd, Allen and Hughes go for five years and 70 million each (pretty much), Sarver offers JJ 5 years, 50 million, which pisses JJ off, then after Atlanta gets involved, offers five years 60 million, still 10 million below Atlanta's offer.
2005, Suns trade their acquired 1st to New York as part of an ever evolving package to obtain Kurt Thomas. The initial reports had Thomas and a New York 1st coming to Phoenix for just Quentin Richardson. Next it was straight up. Finally it was Richardson and the acquired 1st to New York for just Kurt Thomas.
2006, To assert control and send a message that he's the absolute authority when it comes to the Suns, Sarver alienates Bryan Colangelo, running the defending executive of the year off mid-season. Colangelo immediately signs to be Toronto's GM, and is allowed to leave for no compensation given, despite BC still being under contract.
2006, with both starting big men done the for the year, and minimal bench depth, Sarver opts not to use the several million in a trade exemption to bring in true big man help, despite several quality options being available. Signs Tim Thomas, which works out very well, but then leads to...
2006, after selling off yet another two draft picks to "save money to resign Tim Thomas", Sarver then low balls the player who almost singlehandedly won them the Lakers series that previous postseason. Thomas wants four years, 20 million, a very reasonable request, but Sarver offers only three years 15 million. Tim takes the Clippers offer, leading to...
2006, them handing Marcus effin' Banks a 5 year, 23 million contract.
2006-07, with it very evident that Phoenix needed a backup PG, and with quality options like Lue and Anthony Johnson available, Sarver determines that they have enough players, only to see Nash almost break down in the coming playoffs after D'Antoni played him a career high in minutes.
2007, Another draft, another sold pick, this time going along with quality rotation player, James Jones, for nothing bu 3 million for Sarver's pockets.
2007, despite knowing his importance, Sarver greenlights (or mandates) the trading of Kurt Thomas and two future 1st-rounders, neither of which was protected in any way, to Seattle for literally nothing.
2007-8, after years of feeling illused and ignored, Marion demands to be traded, and his request is granted as he and Banks are packaged together and sent to Miami for an aged Shaquille O'Neal, a move that has yet to may off in anything other than increased jersey sales.
2008, despite absolutely know for a fact that this team is in dire need for a true back up PG for like the fifth year running, Sarver has dicked around and allowed most every FA to sign elsewhere. He is engaged in ongoing discussions to sign acquired 2nd-rounder, Goran Dragic, but price will likely factor in and Mike Wilks appears to be the fallback plan.

In Sarver's time as owner...

2004 draft - sells an acquired 05-06 Cleveland 1st to Charlotte for them to take on Jahaidi White's remaining year.
2004 draft - trades their #7 overall pick to Chicago for a future first, 3 million and a 04-05 second-rounder.
2005 draft - trades their acquired Chicago pick to New York along with Quentin Richardson to acquire Kurt Thomas.
2006 draft - trades their acquired Lakers pick to Boston for 3 million and an acquired Cleveland 1st
2006 draft - trades their own 1st rounder to Portland for 3 million
2007 draft - trades their acquired Cleveland 1st along with James Jones to Portland for 3 million
2008 offseason - trades two future Suns 1st along with Kurt Thomas for 3 million

Imagine if they had kept those picks.

Players available with said picks?

2004 (1 pick, 7th overall): Luel Deng, Andre Iguodala, Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, Jameer Nelson, Kevin Martin

2005 (2 picks, 13 overall, 21st overall): Sean May, Danny Granger, Hakim Warrick, Jarrett Jack, Francisco Garcia, David Lee, Ronny Turiaf, Monta Ellis

2006 (2 picks, 21st overall, 27th overall): Rajon Rondo, Marcus Williams, Kyle Lowry, Jordan Farmar, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap

2007 (1 pick, 24th overall): Rudy Fernandez, Aaron Brooks, Gabe Pruitt, Marcus Williams, Glen Davis, Marc Gasol

- Players Alienated/Lowballed/Let Go or Traded For Nothing-
2004/2005: Joe Johnson
2005: Steven Hunter and Jim Jackson
2006: Eddie House and Tim Thomas
2007: James Jones and Kurt Thomas
2008: Shawn Marion

That's a solid team, right there, no?

- Executives Alienated/Lowballed/Let Go For Nothing -
2005: Head Scout, Rex Chapman
2006: General Manager, Bryan Colangelo
2008: Head Coach, Mike D'Antoni (not that I minded)




Does this help to answer the question :)

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Stupidity disgusts me... It doesn't take much at all to be informed in your opinion, not vomit up crap spoon fed you by the media. Jerry Colangelo actually owned a stake of the Republic. I wonder if this stake was part of the deal that Sarver purchased? If so, there's your BS factor of the Republic.


It's not even that, just think about what you're reading. When you read an article saying it's a good thing the Suns are no longer a contender, ask yourself if this is something you should take seriously.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

My one issue with that JMarks, is that it makes it sound like Bryan Colangelo was the GOAT of general managers, when BC fucked plenty of things up as GM.

[JMarkJohns]

My one issue with that JMarks, is that it makes it sound like Bryan Colangelo was the GOAT of general managers, when BC fucked plenty of things up as GM.

No doubt, but he did go on to become Executive of the Year with Toronto the following year. He had a flawed view of how to construct a Title-contending team, no doubt. Still, he was better at GM that D'Antoni, and, at the very least, had a quality evaluative eye for draft talent. Phoenix should have received compensation. That was my main gripe. How can you have a reigning GM of the year under contract and just let him walk?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

No doubt, but he did go on to become Executive of the Year with Toronto the following year. He had a flawed view of how to construct a Title-contending team, no doubt. Still, he was better at GM that D'Antoni, and, at the very least, had a quality evaluative eye for draft talent. Phoenix should have received compensation. That was my main gripe. How can you have a reigning GM of the year under contract and just let him walk?


The same way you could have a player who's the only reason you have a fighting chance against the Spurs in 2007 and then trade him for nothing.

Of course he was a better GM than D'antoni, but neither one was good at all. Other than the 2004 off season, Colangelo was more or less a joke at GM.

And even now, last I checked, Toronto is still a joke.

[Culburn369]

...and I loved him all the more for it during his tenure with the Spurs.

I have no qualms about feeling all warm and fuzzy inside whenever I read an article about the Suns death and knowing the Spurs had a large part in their execution. :toast

Their fans, at the time, where some of the most obnoxious and annoying. More-so than Dallas and Laker fans can ever be (at least for me).

While you are somewhat annoying Cul, I generally laugh at most of your posts because I know someone is going to bite (I've done it several times) but during those few years when the Suns where competitive some of their fans would actually downright piss me off with their obnoxiousness. :lol


P.S.

tee, hee

They were pretty insufferable at the time, but, they hadn't rung and it'll make you defensive & touchy. They had you legitimately on the ropes and everybody knew it. Horry hated that organization so he didn't even calculate it, he just shoved out of raw frustration, and struck gold.

[pauls931]

Didn't Sarver have to turn to an uber cheat skate because he was a dumbass and leveraged himself too much with real estate?

[JMarkJohns]

As I've said in the past, it doesn't matter who the GM is, for worse or worse yet, the man behind the curtain is Sarver, and the PHX media is doing its best to promote a mantra of, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" ...

You didn't mind Colangelo being let go, I didn't mind D'Antoni being let go. The gripe, that each was allowed to walk while under contract for absolutely nothing, despite each having been given much credit for the rise/style of Phoenix, and being honored with award for their hand in the "success" ... Whether or not you agree with the end, the means should infuriate you as a fan.

[JMarkJohns]

Didn't Sarver have to turn to an uber cheat skate because he was a dumbass and leveraged himself too much with real estate?

Sarver, as shown in this thread, has always been a cheapskate and dumbass in his personal handlings of the Suns, regardless of the Real Estate Market, which, when he sold his first pick and lowballed his first player, was at it's absolute peak. Sarver may now use such as a shield, but don't be told it's linked. It's not. At least, it wasn't.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

As I've said in the past, it doesn't matter who the GM is, for worse or worse yet, the man behind the curtain is Sarver, and the PHX media is doing its best to promote a mantra of, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" ...

You didn't mind Colangelo being let go, I didn't mind D'Antoni being let go. The gripe, that each was allowed to walk while under contract for absolutely nothing, despite each having been given much credit for the rise/style of Phoenix, and being honored with award for their hand in the "success" ... Whether or not you agree with the end, the means should infuriate you as a fan.


Yes I agree, and yeah I never thought about getting compensation (btw, it's not like I mind Antoni leaving :lol).

BC was a bad GM long before Sarver came along, but that's beside the point. Basically, as long as Sarver is owner, the Suns are fucked.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Didn't Sarver have to turn to an uber cheat skate because he was a dumbass and leveraged himself too much with real estate?


Even if that was true, it's not a valid excuse. It's pretty clear he bought the Suns as a mere asset he could flip for a nice profit 10-12 years from when he bought the team, unfortunately with this economy, god knows how long he'll have to hold onto the team before he sells.

[Findog]

Once upon a time, the Phoenix Suns were the best team in the Western Conference.

When was this? 1993?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

When was this? 1993?


Na, 1995 before Danny Manning's injury.

[JMarkJohns]

That "writer" obviously meant, "Once upon a time the Phoenix Suns were the best regular season team in the Western Conference," which was true in 2004-05.

[wanggi]

WOW, WOW, WOW, JMark, the excellent Suns analyst!
I can't agree more with your point of view especially on the comments of Colangelo, D'Antoni and Sarver.
You should go to azcentral.com Suns board to tape your analysis and share with those thirsty Suns fans.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks... Let's not over-hype it, though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Btw JMarks, how bout muthafuckin 22? I didn't see it coming, but I'll take it.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks... Let's not over-hype it, though.

Also, that's a copyrighted article, so, if you're going to post it, link it please (to this specific thread).

[JMarkJohns]

Btw JMarks, how bout muthafuckin 22? I didn't see it coming, but I'll take it.

All I can do is laugh. I mean, I'm thrilled, and I see why, but that was so out of the blue, it literally floored me with its awesomeness. Two "potential" wins up next vs. Washington State and UCLA, both at home, could have them climbing. How big is that BS replay decision vs. Washington? Arizona could be top-15.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

O god, if they beat Washington, they'd be rose bowl contenders.

IMO, Foles is the best QB in the Pac-10 right now.

[JMarkJohns]

I think 8-4 is extremely doable. With Oregon at home, 9-3 could be done as well...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think 8-4 is extremely doable. With Oregon at home, 9-3 could be done as well...


Both will be tough......Cal, USC and Oregon are all superior teams. They were supposed to have a great D this year....now that the O is there, it's time the D steps up like it was supposed to.

[phyzik]

They were pretty insufferable at the time, but, they hadn't rung and it'll make you defensive & touchy. They had you legitimately on the ropes and everybody knew it. Horry hated that organization so he didn't even calculate it, he just shoved out of raw frustration, and struck gold.

Just like Joe Frazier had Mohammad ali against the ropes in the Thrilla in Manila...

tee, hee.

[sribb43]

The whole Suns organization is ass backwards right now. You fire the best coach for the run n gun style for a coach that you want to preach defense and slow down the tempo...you trade away most of the players that excel in run n gun and bring in Shaq and others then fire Porter bc his style isnt working. You then say your going back to run n gun with Gentry yet your personel is severly lacking for said style. Sarver and Kerr fucked Suns fans

[Culburn369]

The whole Suns organization is ass backwards right now. You fire the best coach for the run n gun style for a coach that you want to preach defense and slow down the tempo...you trade away most of the players that excel in run n gun and bring in Shaq and others then fire Porter bc his style isnt working. You then say your going back to run n gun with Gentry yet your personel is severly lacking for said style. Sarver and Kerr fucked Suns fans

That's it in a nutshell.

[Culburn369]

Just like Joe Frazier had Mohammad ali against the ropes in the Thrilla in Manila...

tee, hee.

You were beaten, but, not beat.

[da_suns_fan]

Sarver is obviously cheap and one of the worst owners in sports, but dont get too enamored wth JMarkJohn's "insight". Nobody cares because all of this has been said a million times already. Theres nothing new here.

Also, JMarksJohn went along with the every stupid cliche that was thrown against the Suns. Namely that D'Antoni didnt play his bench, Casey Jacobsen was a "hustler", DJ Strawberry deserved minutes etc. And he's crazy if he thinks Amare was ever benched for fouling someone (or attempting to play defense like JMark is implying). D'Antoni would never bench Amare when he provided so much offense. Im basically calling him a liar and telling you that this incident NEVER happened. Not in the way he's implying, anyway. The only way Amare got benched was because he was in foul trouble.

[Culburn369]

Im basically calling him a liar and telling you that this incident NEVER happened.

Somebody better call somebody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[da_suns_fan]

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.

This is wrong. The Suns offered the 6/60 million dollar offer BEFORE Atlanta gave its offer. The Suns then countered with 6/75.



Sarver proceeded to save face. He blustered, “Johnson isn’t going anywhere. We will match that offer.”

Ummm...excuse me Stephen Glass, but is that a direct quote or did you just MAKE THAT UP!!! No wonder your "piece" doesnt get picked up. Its compelte shit!



The next offseason, Sarver again stood in front of cameras and claimed to be making room to re-sign playoff hero, perimeter forward Tim Thomas. Only the signing never came. Sarver said he would pay whatever it took, only he didn’t.

Again, this is why youre not taken seriously. He never said he would pay "whatever it took". This is some really crappy "journalism"



Sarver, however, didn’t reserve fiscal fascism with players only. Bryan Colangelo, 2005 Executive Of The Year, was let go in 2006. Colangelo went on to win Executive Of The Year honors again just one season later in Toronto. Mike D’Antoni, 2005 Coach Of The Year, was allowed to walk in 2008. Many credit D’Antoni for the rise of the Suns.

D'Antoni was gone because they wanted a change in philosophy, not for financial reasons as you are implying. D'Antoni was still under contract and the Suns let him out of it. However, rather than just firing him, they allowed him to get another job first wich saved them money because if they fired him before he had another NBA offer, they would have to pay out the rest of his contract.

btw - You were totally on board with getting rid of him!! (As was I)


This "article" was total amateur hour. Not QUITE as bad as Eric "Emplay" Picnus or the rest of the "journalists" from Hoopsworld, but close.

[Indazone]

Sarver and Kerr

Recipe for disaster

[Culburn369]

This is wrong. The Suns offered the 6/60 million dollar offer BEFORE Atlanta gave its offer. The Suns then countered with 6/75.



Ummm...excuse me Stephen Glass, but is that a direct quote or did you just MAKE THAT UP!!! No wonder your "piece" doesnt get picked up. Its compelte shit!



Again, this is why youre not taken seriously. He never said he would pay "whatever it took". This is some really crappy "journalism"



D'Antoni was gone because they wanted a change in philosophy, not for financial reasons as you are implying. D'Antoni was still under contract and the Suns let him out of it. However, rather than just firing him, they allowed him to get another job first wich saved them money because if they fired him before he had another NBA offer, they would have to pay out the rest of his contract.

btw - You were totally on board with getting rid of him!! (As was I)


This "article" was total amateur hour. Not QUITE as bad as Eric "Emplay" Picnus or the rest of the "journalists" from Hoopsworld, but close.

For the couple dozen in attendance here---for the circle jerk going on in the Spurs Forum over there, not to mention the few poor souls in the Piston Wailing Wall down the hall a piece,,,ladies & gentlemen,,,,,,LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[JMarkJohns]

If I didn't have complete trust in the content of my article, I wouldn't have bothered shopping it, nor would I have even posted it. Some of your critique's are valid, others exaggerated. As I've worked half my adult life in Journalism, and studied for longer, I believe I understand what it is supposed to be. I have been a Suns fan for 20 years of my life, and during the time frame in question, I literally tape recorded 75% of the games aired. I not only watched games once, but twice or three times.

You're entitled to your opinion, but half of what you mention I said in my "crappy journalism" was never mentioned in the piece. I never said anything of D'Antoni, except that many credit him with the rise of the Suns, so your comments against my piece that claim I blame him for stuff is invalid. The critiques on D'Antoni came in post-discussion of the article, so feel free to critique that, but please do not lump it in with the separate article. I also used ESPN.com articles to reconstruct the Joe Johnson situation. If I'm wrong, they are wrong.

Nobody wanted to print it because nobody wants to admit the Suns have died, and the tone of the article offers almost zero hope of the future while criticizing those responsible for past failures. It wasn't written to appease, nor appeal to everybody. I never figured it an article for fans like yourself. Still, you not only read it, but read my subsequent posts on the topic, so...

Lastly, I was on board and rejoiced at D'Antoni's departure. The piece wasn't about D'Antoni. It wasn't on why the Suns failed to win a Title, but that the Suns failed to win a Title and the gloom of the future based upon history of Sarver's tenure. Why would I take away focus from the villain in my piece (Sarver) to make some passing backhanded comments about D'Antoni? Too many people of focus make for a distracting and jumbled read. So, I gave D'Antoni credit where the general opinion grants. I didn't say it was my opinion, nor did I pass such off as fact.

Overall, when you shop an article around, it's never as a finished product. I don't have complete access to entire archives. Had a fact-checker discovered something wrong, it's an easy change since it wouldn't have been that off in the first place. Considering my qualifications, that I received an "A" on the piece in my CAPSTONE journalism class, and that I had a friend (former colleague) from the East Valley Tribune staff look it over, I think I'll take professional opinions on the article over those from someone who's always attacked me at every turn, simply because my definition if success (winning a Title) doesn't match his (being the most popular team in the League).

Still, glad you read it.

[da_suns_fan]

Overall, when you shop an article around, it's never as a finished product. I don't have complete access to entire archives. Had a fact-checker discovered something wrong, it's an easy change since it wouldn't have been that off in the first place. Considering my qualifications, that I received an "A" on the piece in my CAPSTONE journalism class, and that I had a friend (former colleague) from the East Valley Tribune staff look it over, I think I'll take professional opinions on the article over those from someone who's always attacked me at every turn, simply because my definition if success (winning a Title) doesn't match his (being the most popular team in the League).
Still, glad you read it.

You are completely clueless. You cant just make up quotes!! This is journalism 101!!! Im sure your capstone teacher would have docked you a few letter grades if they realized your piece was partially fabricated!

In addition, if you want to know why the az republic and east valley tribune didnt pick it up, I could provide you some reasons (besides the fact that it would have been a national story if they ran piece that was a sieve). Ive read Young, Bickley and Coro's pieces on Sarver and yours is very different from something they would write.

Your piece is more informative than persuasive. Youre just basically cherry-picking transactions the front office has made over the last five years. Its very hard to follow for someone who isnt a die-hard Suns fan. Besides, this all has already been said to death. If you REALLY want a piece ran, call it "top five Sarver mistakes". I guarantee it will be the most read at realclearsports.com (people love articles like that).

[ShoogarBear]

Out of all the mistakes Sarver made, the most unforgivable was the wasting of all those draft picks. Basically, the Suns could just about made up for everything else if they had just made use of the picks.

And JMarkJohns used to be a Yuma sportswriter? Just think, you're partially responsible for informing the ducks database.

[da_suns_fan]

Sarver and Kerr

Recipe for disaster

Now THATS a story I'd like to read!!

I mean, has there ever been a more inept duo?

Kerr gets all the "Credit" for hiring Terry Porter. A move so disasterous he was forced to fire him mid-way through the season.

Drafting Robin Lopez and Goran Dragic was a flop. Especially considering the pick they traded away for Dragic turned out to be Dejaun Blair!

But who gets "credit" for trading for Shaquille Oneal? We know that Miami's owner floated the idea directly to Sarver rather than using their respective GMs. Was Miami's owner afraid that Kerr would squash it right away and Sarver would never even hear about it if he went about trades the normal way? Did he want to sell the benefits of having Shaq on your season ticket package to Sarver before the basketball people had a chance to weigh in?

You cant really blame Kerr for trading away KT and two picks for nothing. Thats all Sarver. The Suns figured out how to perform the NBA equivalent of an NFL cut (where you no longer have to pay them): trade them away for nothing!

And if that doesnt work, bribe other teams with first round draft picks! :lol

[JMarkJohns]

It wasn't a direct quote. Obviously he didn't "bluster" ... it was summary via use of hyperbole. If you understood the context of the article, it's tongue in cheek. The Suns obviously aren't dead, and nobody is really attending a funeral or vigil for them. The facts are the facts, but the ways in which they are presented is done a subtly sarcastic manner. The quotes aren't "made up" but are rather a summary of an entire event through one sentence. You are literally the only person to think it an issue, and that includes former colleagues/staff of Sports Departments just as familiar with the situation. Everybody else understood the point of the column, and understood the use of summary and hyperbole.

As for the remainder, it is different, which is why I thought I'd try to get it published. And while some of the content has been said a number of times on message boards, it's not necessarily something belabored upon in the Phoenix media, at least not to the extent you're making out. And, certainly, nobody has eulogized the Suns in this fashion. It's a different type of read.

[JMarkJohns]

Out of all the mistakes Sarver made, the most unforgivable was the wasting of all those draft picks. Basically, the Suns could just about made up for everything else if they had just made use of the picks.

Agreed. Iguodala, Turiaf and Rondo would be nice additions to this team right now. No idea whom the Suns might have picked had they ever intended to keep the picks, but I know they attempted to trade the package received from Chicago to Toronto, then Philadelphia in an effort to draft Iguodala.


And JMarkJohns used to be a Yuma sportswriter? Just think, you're partially responsible for informing the ducks database.

Yeah... That paper has downsized by 40% of the staff I was once a part of. The current market for newspapers just has everything in a tailspin. I left to finish a second degree before the shit hit the fan. I hate to see this current situation.

[da_suns_fan]

Sarver proceeded to save face. He blustered, “Johnson isn’t going anywhere. We will match that offer.”


It wasn't a direct quote. Obviously he didn't "bluster" ...

You have GOT to be kidding me.

[JMarkJohns]

You're reading too much into the grammar. If your biggest issue is that I used quotations in an instance where summary was used, then I'm afraid there's not much I can say, because it's obvious you're just looking for a reason to hate the piece.

Again, that's a brief summary of a week-long conversation Sarver had with media/fans. He did say the offer would be matched. He did say Johnson wasn't going anywhere. Maybe not in so many words, which is why I used "blustered" to play up the over-the-top undertones of my argument.

[Mel_13]

Considering my qualifications, that I received an "A" on the piece in my CAPSTONE journalism class,

:lol

I know you weren't going for a laugh, but defending the quality of your writing by citing your college grades is hilarious.

[JMarkJohns]

And for the record, the source of Sarver's quote's was a radio interview done by Gambo, with the content's of the "He's not going anywhere" sentiments being echoed by Johnson in several articles at the time. Quoting Johnson, "He [Sarver] said he's going to match." This quote was run in EVT and on ESPN.

However, in my search for this, I did stumble upon verification of your claim that Johnson was offered the six-year, 60 million deal before Atlanta made their first offer. However, the greater context is as follows: Suns play the market, Redd, Allen and Hughes all go for 70 million, Suns offer to accept previous 6-year, 50 million deal from previous summer, then offer 6-year, 60 million deal. Johnson balks, engages in contract talks with Atlanta. Sarver tells the fans in Phoenix Johnson isn't going anywhere, JJ confirms Sarver has told him that the Suns will match. The match never comes.

So, the greater context, I wasn't off. Sarver still lowballed, then lied about keeping JJ. However, I was off on the timing of when the 6-year, 60 million offer was made. Congratulations. I hope this makes your day. In the end, it will paint me in a negative light, only the greater context of what was said never changes. Had this been picked up, such is the exact type of detail a fact checker catches and lets the writer know about before its published, so it can be fixed. Like I said, I had myself and the internet sources from almost five years ago. My original finds dictated my first attempt. My most recent says otherwise. Thanks. Wouldn't want to maliciously deceive anyone, being that I'm attempting to have such published under my real name, and make money. An intent to deceive costs me my reputation - my real one, not message board one - and the chance at publication. So, before you bad mouth me anymore, how about you let such a context sink in.

[JMarkJohns]

:lol

I know you weren't going for a laugh, but defending the quality of your writing by citing your college grades is hilarious.

Why? My instructor for that class had won awards for her journalistic contributions throughout the years. I value her opinion as much as anyone's. If she deems the style of writing and content to be an "A", then that's a very good thing, because she doesn't just hand those out - I did receive a handful of B's in her class as well, as did most. It's further qualification. It was a CAPSTONE class, and this, albeit small in size, was part of roughly 15,000 words I had to write in five small (1,000-to-2,000 word) and one large, 8,000 minimum investigative feature. It wasn't a 100-level class where A's are passed out to make beginners feel good.

EDIT: In hindsight, I can see why you found it funny.

[RonMexico]

None of those draft picks would have cracked D'Antoni's 6-man rotation, so some of it may be a moot point.

[RonMexico]

Much like Arizona will most likely lose to Arizona State so all these close wins and losses will mean little. They're simply going to bear down on themselves.

[Mel_13]

Why? My instructor for that class had won awards for her journalistic contributions throughout the years. I value her opinion as much as anyone's. If she deems the style of writing and content to be an "A", then that's a very good thing, because she doesn't just hand those out - I did receive a handful of B's in her class as well, as did most. It's further qualification. It was a CAPSTONE class, and this, albeit small in size, was part of roughly 15,000 words I had to write in five small (1,000-to-2,000 word) and one large, 8,000 minimum investigative feature. It wasn't a 100-level class where A's are passed out to make beginners feel good.

I don't know you and I don't care about your debate with DSF. I do appreciate good writing when I read it. I was able to follow the narrative in your piece because I am very familiar with the ground you covered. A person with less knowledge would find several parts quite confusing because of how it was written. That your piece graded out at the top of your class may only prove that is was better than the work of your fellow students.

I do not wish to debate this with you and would never have commented had you not been so over the top with your defense. Feel free to ignore my opinion, but if you are serious about your writing I would offer the following suggestion:

Take the following part of your piece and ask a few people to read it. Pick people who have no knowledge of the Joe Johnson contract fiasco. After they have read it ask them to describe, in their own words, the sequence of events and what offers were made by which parties. I think you will find much confusion among that group.

The 2005 offseason became crucial to the Suns future. Key players were up for free agency or contract extensions and the Suns needed to address the issues of experience and toughness exposed in their series versus the Spurs.

Sarver, unlike most owners, did more than just sign the checks. He dealt with contract negotiations himself, only occasionally taking the input of those hired for the process.

Sarver told the players he’d allow the market to dictate the total of the extensions he’d offer. Only, once the market surprised Sarver with the cost, Sarver balked at the expense it would take to re-sign everybody.

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.


The bolded portion is the most confusing. The part before the hyphen reads as if Johnson or his agent made the 6/50 proposal while the next sentence implies that the offer may have been from ownership. It is simply not clear. If the purpose of journalism is to inform, this piece has flaws. While your piece may have been rejected due to tone and content, do not blind yourself to the possibility that the quality of the writing may have been a factor.

Good luck with your writing career.

[JMarkJohns]

None of those draft picks would have cracked D'Antoni's 6-man rotation, so some of it may be a moot point.

May be true, but at least then the blame is transferred to D'Antoni. Can't not play players you don't have. I'm sure even D'Antoni could have stumbled into a player or two out of eight.

And, even if you trade them, trade them for something more than 3 million in cash. Trade them for assets that will help the team, not just save you money, since much of that "saved for players" money never went to players at all.

Trade a bad contract and a 1st for a player who can contribute for 20 minutes a night. It's not like the Suns bench in 04-05/05-06 was so stacked they couldn't use the help. It was better in 06-07, but even then a backup PG was needed.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't know you and I don't care about your debate with DSF. I do appreciate good writing when I read it. I was able to follow the narrative in your piece because I am very familiar with the ground you covered. A person with less knowledge would find several parts quite confusing because of how it was written. That your piece graded out at the top of your class may only prove that is was better than the work of your fellow students.

I do not wish to debate this with you and would never have commented had you not been so over the top with your defense. Feel free to ignore my opinion, but if you are serious about your writing I would offer the following suggestion:

Take the following part of your piece and ask a few people to read it. Pick people who have no knowledge of the Joe Johnson contract fiasco. After they have read it ask them to describe, in their own words, the sequence of events and what offers were made by which parties. I think you will find much confusion among that group.

The 2005 offseason became crucial to the Suns future. Key players were up for free agency or contract extensions and the Suns needed to address the issues of experience and toughness exposed in their series versus the Spurs.

Sarver, unlike most owners, did more than just sign the checks. He dealt with contract negotiations himself, only occasionally taking the input of those hired for the process.

Sarver told the players he’d allow the market to dictate the total of the extensions he’d offer. Only, once the market surprised Sarver with the cost, Sarver balked at the expense it would take to re-sign everybody.

The main player left on the cutting board was Joe Johnson. The versatile swingman had one year prior offered a contract of 6-years, $50 million – a typical contract value for a player of his production. Sarver left this offer on the table, telling Johnson to earn his money the next season and that he’d get paid. When Johnson received a 5-year, $70 million deal from the Hawks, Sarver scrambled, first attempted to accept the offer he turned down the offseason prior, then counter-offering a contract of 6-years, 60 million. Johnson got angry at the repeated low-ball offers, and accepted the Hawks offer.


The bolded portion is the most confusing. The part before the hyphen reads as if Johnson or his agent made the 6/50 proposal while the next sentence implies that the offer may have been from ownership. It is simply not clear. If the purpose of journalism is to inform, this piece has flaws. While your piece may have been rejected due to tone and content, do not blind yourself to the possibility that the quality of the writing may have been a factor.

Good luck with your writing career.

Fair enough. Johnson and his agent actually were the ones making the offer, and Sarver was the one sitting on it - not accepting it at the time, because he felt, at that point, JJ had yet to earn that much, even though such was a market-value deal for that offseason.

It happened exactly the way I said it. JJ/Agent offered. Sarver sat on it until the next offseason. I can see how the writing needs to be cleaned up. Again, this is my initial draft, with a quick once through by a former colleague, and the grading of the professor. She made a similar critique, only of my conclusion, which was trimmed. Anyways... No big deal. I obviously have not passed this off as the world's greatest article. Just thought it a fitting place to post it.

EDIT: Also, this isn't a news story. This was and is a feature. It assumes a level of familiarity with the content. Nobody unfamiliar is going to read through a feature story. The intent of features is not to strictly inform. Yes, I wanted to inform, but only to provide a basis for the feature of the eulogy and to show why the fun of the Suns had died (at that time, it certainly appeared it had).

[Mel_13]

Fair enough. Johnson and his agent actually were the ones making the offer, and Sarver was the one sitting on it - not accepting it at the time, because he felt, at that point, JJ had yet to earn that much, even though such was a market-value deal for that offseason.

It happened exactly the way I said it. JJ/Agent offered. Sarver sat on it until the next offseason. I can see how the writing needs to be cleaned up. Again, this is my initial draft, with a quick once through by a former colleague, and the grading of the professor. She made a similar critique, only of my conclusion, which was trimmed. Anyways... No big deal. I obviously have not passed this off as the world's greatest article. Just thought it a fitting place to post it.

This is the perfect place to post such a piece. Whether the content is politically correct or not, I believe the writing needs some polishing before it will be accepted by a major newspaper.

As to the content itself, all Spurs fans should have to read this before they start complaining about giving Scola away. The record of incompetence you detail is almost criminal in its scope.

[JMarkJohns]

This is the perfect place to post such a piece. Whether the content is politically correct or not, I believe the writing needs some polishing before it will be accepted by a major newspaper.

When you shop these proposals, it's always as a draft. If a writer ever took a hard-line stance on his column, it would be unlikely to ever run. I never resent comments on things that need improving. If I had, I would have never been published. I wasn't shopping it as a "take it as is" piece. That's just stupid. It was a "This is what I have, can you use it" kind of shopping. Anyways...

[RonMexico]

May be true, but at least then the blame is transferred to D'Antoni. Can't not play players you don't have. I'm sure even D'Antoni could have stumbled into a player or two out of eight.

And, even if you trade them, trade them for something more than 3 million in cash. Trade them for assets that will help the team, not just save you money, since much of that "saved for players" money never went to players at all.

Trade a bad contract and a 1st for a player who can contribute for 20 minutes a night. It's not like the Suns bench in 04-05/05-06 was so stacked they couldn't use the help. It was better in 06-07, but even then a backup PG was needed.

Yeah, but my point is although there are players of major talent in Deng, Rondo, and Iggie, do you think D'Antoni would have given them the time to have growing pains like they did while getting reps with losing teams? I can't see that Rondo would have progressed into the player he is now if D'Antoni pulled him at every mistake. I don't know if his brother Dan could have mentored both Rondo and Barbosa, but Rajon may be of a stronger fortitude anyway.

Obviously, the selling of picks did nothing for the bottom line because the Kurt Thomas trade was one of the most desperate moves of all time. Then they went and paid for an infinitely more expensive, slower model with a poorer shooting touch. Sure, he (with D'Antoni's help at GM) shelled out too much money for Diaw and Barbosa, but I'd rather have made Boris work for it and enjoyed the ups and downs with Sergio Rodriguez at backup.

I still could be wrong on any of this. I also don't know which would frustrate me more: talented draft picks flaming out because of a short rotation or not having them at all...

[JMarkJohns]

All of which is why I celebrated the day D'Antoni left town. Unfortunately Lopez and Dragic are not the same talents that could have been had by similar pick just years prior. Clark has some potential. Unfortunately, now the Suns are with a coach who will play young players, and have the ability to do so without fear of failure, since the Suns aren't going anywhere in the playoffs (if they even make the playoffs), but the abundance of picks are no more.

[RonMexico]

Is there a point that a disgruntled fan rips his foam finger off and stomps on it in protest? Would he finally get the message?

[Agloco]

They were right there though for just a moment until they let themselves get "Horryed"...they have august company though: Sacramento got worse "Horryed" and Detroit even worser "Horryed."

Horry is the prince of fucking darkness.

+1

But I think the Suns demise was long in the making. Getting repatedly ass-raped by San Antonio had them thinking that change was needed. Unfortunately, change just for the sake of change isn't always good (an allusion to current events.....).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

DSF is just mad cause the #22 college football team in the country is stylin' on him.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I never figured it an article for fans like yourself.


Unless it's a rambling optimistic fluff article talking about how much fun Nash is having, chances are it isn't.

[da_suns_fan]

Yeah, but my point is although there are players of major talent in Deng, Rondo, and Iggie, do you think D'Antoni would have given them the time to have growing pains like they did while getting reps with losing teams? I can't see that Rondo would have progressed into the player he is now if D'Antoni pulled him at every mistake. I don't know if his brother Dan could have mentored both Rondo and Barbosa, but Rajon may be of a stronger fortitude anyway.

Obviously, the selling of picks did nothing for the bottom line because the Kurt Thomas trade was one of the most desperate moves of all time. Then they went and paid for an infinitely more expensive, slower model with a poorer shooting touch. Sure, he (with D'Antoni's help at GM) shelled out too much money for Diaw and Barbosa, but I'd rather have made Boris work for it and enjoyed the ups and downs with Sergio Rodriguez at backup.

I still could be wrong on any of this. I also don't know which would frustrate me more: talented draft picks flaming out because of a short rotation or not having them at all...


I dont agree with your assessment. I dont know how you could say that D'Antoni wouldnt have played Rondo or Igoudala since he didnt play the likes of DJ Strawberry and Piatowski. The bottom line is DAntoni played the guys who belonged in the league.

And no one has proven him wrong. Theres not a single guy who didnt get minutes with D'Antoni and then went on to prove he could play in this league with another team. Four seasons, and not one scrub amounted to anythng.

[da_suns_fan]

All of which is why I celebrated the day D'Antoni left town. Unfortunately Lopez and Dragic are not the same talents that could have been had by similar pick just years prior. Clark has some potential. Unfortunately, now the Suns are with a coach who will play young players, and have the ability to do so without fear of failure, since the Suns aren't going anywhere in the playoffs (if they even make the playoffs), but the abundance of picks are no more.

Who should have D'Antoni given more minues to? He gave minutes to James freaking Jones for Christ's sake. You continue to be LAZY with your opinions.

[JMarkJohns]

Who should have D'Antoni given more minues to? He gave minutes to James freaking Jones for Christ's sake. You continue to be LAZY with your opinions.

This is old news, as is the grudge your harboring. If you cared to look, you'd note plenty of opportunity was there for Kurt Thomas and James Jones - as well as Jalen Rose - to be played more minutes. Not gonna rehash this. Everyone who's been here for a lengthy time knows D'Antoni used a terribly short bench, and it cost them at times.

[Culburn369]

+1

But I think the Suns demise was long in the making. Getting repatedly ass-raped by San Antonio had them thinking that change was needed.

But perhaps "change" wasn't needed. Just repeat/mirrored opportunities to bust thru against San Antonio. They were close, they had the Spurs genuinely attentive & concerned---but, they did not trust themselves to make the repeated attempts for the summit.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I dont know how you could say that D'Antoni wouldnt have played Rondo or Igoudala since he didnt play the likes of DJ Strawberry and Piatowski.


To quote him exactly, Antoni said, "We're not here to develop players." He had just as much to do with selling draft picks as anyone, and it was cause he had no interest in using rookies and was too stubborn to live with their growing pains.

Remind me, how many draft picks have been sold since Antoni left?

[da_suns_fan]

This is old news, as is the grudge your harboring. If you cared to look, you'd note plenty of opportunity was there for Kurt Thomas and James Jones - as well as Jalen Rose - to be played more minutes. Not gonna rehash this. Everyone who's been here for a lengthy time knows D'Antoni used a terribly short bench, and it cost them at times.

Exactly my point. To say he didnt play his bench and point to KT and James Jones proves how far you'll stretch. After all, James Jones STARTED 24 games in 2006 and averaged over 18 minutes a game in 2007. Kurt Thomas started 13 games in 2007 and 50 (of the 53 he played) in 2006.

Jalen Rose was D-O-N-E when he came to Phoenix. So much so that he called it a career after his one year there. But apparently, YOU saw opprotunities to give him more minutes even though he could barely still run.

Yeah, great evidence that D'Antoni didnt "play his bench" or develop players. :rolleyes

Its a stupid talking point that has absolutely no merit. And again, who proved D'Antoni wrong? James Jones has CAREER highs in minutes and games started while he was in Phoenix. Evidently, its not just D'Antoni who didnt give him enough minutes, but Nate McMillian and Erik Spoelstra as well, yes?

D'Antoni had a short bench because Sarver filled out the roster with minimum salary guys who didnt even belong in the league. If this wasnt true, there would at least be ONE PLAYER who went on to prove he could play in the league after leaving the Suns.

btw you arrogant asshole, this has nothing to do with you. Ive started mutliple threads on how stupid this cliche is over at azsportforum and phxsuns.net. I dont really care about you personally.

[da_suns_fan]

To quote him exactly, Antoni said, "We're not here to develop players." He had just as much to do with selling draft picks as anyone, and it was cause he had no interest in using rookies and was too stubborn to live with their growing pains.

Remind me, how many draft picks have been sold since Antoni left?

Youre fucking ignorant. How old were you when he said that? What you are basically doing is harping on ONE COMMENT and throwing out the rest of the four years he was coach. Are you aware that he had limited funds and desire to re-sign Tim Thomas when he said that? Are you aware that the Suns signed Marcus Banks (who was also very young) shortly after that because they thought he was more of a sure thing for a backup pg?

Blaming D'Antoni for not developing young players is the dumbest fucking thing Ive ever heard.

You ever heard of Joe Johnson? Amare Stoudemire? Leandro Barbosa?

You must have not been around when Joe Johnson refused to shoot. You must not have been here when Amare Stoudemire had no jumpshot and Leandro Barbosa was a human turnover.

And of course, what about Boris Diaw? A third year player thrust into a starting role after only playing limited minutes for the worst team in the NBA. That sounds like a coach who doesnt want to experience growing pains. Same with James Jones.

Do you have a fucking brain or do you and JMJ just share one?
Youre so fucking clueless every time you type. I read this "too stubborn to live with their growing pains" and just laugh because you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

[Culburn369]

Are you aware that the Suns signed Marcus Banks (who was also very young) shortly after that because they thought he was more of a sure thing for a backup pg?

Something had to be done. Banks had locked himself in his bedroom and wouldn't come out until the Suns tendered that offer. Least ways that what Banks dad claimed.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Are you aware that he had limited funds and desire to re-sign Tim Thomas when he said that?



No, because I'm referring to him saying that towards the end of the 2008 regular season when the press was starting to get on his case for being a one trick pony.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You ever heard of Joe Johnson? Amare Stoudemire? Leandro Barbosa?



Joe Johnson is the player he is today because Atlanta was wiling to ride out the 2 year mess their team would be while JJ developed his individual skills. D'antoni wanted to develop JJ as nothing more than a catch and shoot player who would play off Steve Nash.

Amare Stoudemire is no different. D'antoni developed him into a player who scores all of his points off well executed pick and rolls, and like JJ, plays off Steve Nash. D'antoni had no interest in developing Amare or JJ's ability to create their own shot.

Notice how Amare has no post game whatsoever? How is it that he could have played for the phenomenal amazing player developer you seem to think Antoni is for 4 years and not have any post up skills at all? The way you talk about Antoni he shoulda been able to turn Amare into Hakeem Olajuwon.

[rjv]

Once upon a time, the Phoenix Suns were the best team in the Western Conference

starts off just like a fairy tale and just keeps going.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

You must not have been here when Amare Stoudemire had no jumpshot


WOW!!!! in his 4+ years as Amare's coach, Amare developed a good reliable mid range jumper, something anyone can do with a basketball, a basketball court, and spare time.

So let me confirm this in 4+ years of coaching Amare, Antoni did nothing at all to improve Amare's pick and roll defense, Amare's post defense, Amare's ability to box out and get rebounds, Amare's ability to create a shot in the post with his back to the basket, Amare's ability to pass, and Amare's overall discipline and maturity, BUT, the fact Amare now has a mid range jumper makes him a great talent developer. Is that what you're saying?

[da_suns_fan]

No, because I'm referring to him saying that towards the end of the 2008 regular season when the press was starting to get on his case for being a one trick pony.

See what I mean? You are clueless.

He didnt say that at the end of 2008. Im guessing you first read it in a Dan Bickley piece at the end of 2008. Of course if you had a clue, you would realize that he actually said it in the summr of 2006. Dan was just recalling an old quote.

[da_suns_fan]

Joe Johnson is the player he is today because Atlanta was wiling to ride out the 2 year mess their team would be while JJ developed his individual skills. D'antoni wanted to develop JJ as nothing more than a catch and shoot player who would play off Steve Nash.



Yep...still clueless. Joe Johnson served as the primary backup pg in 2004-2005.

In addition, isolations for Joe Johnson were one of the only set plays that the Suns ran. He hit two game winners using his "rock em to sleep" jumper. One against Dallas and one against Memphis. This is why he got a max offer. He was already known to be an amazing player.

Likewise, in 2004, JJ was the Suns primary scorer after the Marbury trade. The running joke was that D'Antoni would make a joke "try to score 30" and JJ would do it.

You are CLUELESS. You have no idea what you are talking about. You take quotes out of context and out of date and interpret them incorrectly. You are WRONG!

[monosylab1k]

WOW!!!! in his 4+ years as Amare's coach, Amare developed a good reliable mid range jumper, something anyone can do with a basketball, a basketball court, and spare time.

So let me confirm this in 4+ years of coaching Amare, Antoni did nothing at all to improve Amare's pick and roll defense, Amare's post defense, Amare's ability to box out and get rebounds, Amare's ability to create a shot in the post with his back to the basket, Amare's ability to pass, and Amare's overall discipline and maturity, BUT, the fact Amare now has a mid range jumper makes him a great talent developer. Is that what you're saying?

Actually, Amare developed his midrange jumper during the 05-06 season when he was out for the season. So technically, microfracture surgery did all the work, not D'Antoni.

[monosylab1k]

You are CLUELESS. You have no idea what you are talking about. You take quotes out of context and out of date and interpret them incorrectly.

unintentional self-ownage.

[da_suns_fan]

WOW!!!! in his 4+ years as Amare's coach, Amare developed a good reliable mid range jumper, something anyone can do with a basketball, a basketball court, and spare time.

So let me confirm this in 4+ years of coaching Amare, Antoni did nothing at all to improve Amare's pick and roll defense, Amare's post defense, Amare's ability to box out and get rebounds, Amare's ability to create a shot in the post with his back to the basket, Amare's ability to pass, and Amare's overall discipline and maturity, BUT, the fact Amare now has a mid range jumper makes him a great talent developer. Is that what you're saying?

What are we talking about here? JMJ and you claimed that D'Antoni didnt want those draft picks because he didnt want to develop players.

NOW you are saying that he did a poor job "developing" Amare. I dont give a shit! Youre missing the point! The point is he was willing to give substantial minutes to anyone who proved that they could be a player in the league and this talk about "not playing a bench" or "not developing players" is bullshit.

Amare is not DJ Strawberry. Not Eric Piatowski. Not Majec Lampe. Not Jackson Vroman. Not Pat Burke etc. These are all players JMJ claimed D'Antoni should have played more.

We're not talking about Amare.

[da_suns_fan]

Actually, Amare developed his midrange jumper during the 05-06 season when he was out for the season. So technically, microfracture surgery did all the work, not D'Antoni.

Obviously youre more clueless than DOK if you think Amare developed his mid range jumper in 06, dumbass.

[monosylab1k]

Also it's well documented that Mike had little to do with developing Barbosa, it was almost all his brother Dan's doing.

[monosylab1k]

Obviously youre more clueless than DOK if you think Amare developed his mid range jumper in 06, dumbass.

And apparently you're not capable of reading a book. It's well documented when Amare started working on his jumper.

[da_suns_fan]

Also it's well documented that Mike had little to do with developing Barbosa, it was almost all his brother Dan's doing.

Yes...that Mike D'Antoni didnt do anything to help LB develop. He didnt give him minutes or bring in a special coach especially for him or anything.

Do you even know how fucking stupid you are?

[monosylab1k]

bring in a special coach especially for him

meaning Mike wasn't coaching him, that "special coach" (his brother Dan, it's well documented) was doing the coaching.

[da_suns_fan]

And apparently you're not capable of reading a book. It's well documented when Amare started working on his jumper.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

Is this gonna be another instance where you CHANGE a quote from "Seven seconds or less?"

You are WAY FUCKING WRONG. By 2004-2005, Amare's jumper was already there. He had been working on it since Frank Johnson was coach (maybe he deserves the most credit). If you youtube his fifty point game against Portland (2004-2005), you will see it time and time again just as smooth as it is today.

Now just admit you dont have the slightest clue what you are talking about because you just got owned.

UPDATE: In fact, you will see Amare hit a smooth fade-away from the post to get his 49th and 50th points.

Owning you is fish in a barrel cuz you talk out of your ass so much. Is it deliberate?

[monosylab1k]

Avery Johnson gave Devin Harris lots of minutes but you'd be an idiot to say he developed him.

[da_suns_fan]

Avery Johnson gave Devin Harris lots of minutes but you'd be an idiot to say he developed him.

Leandro Barbosa went from a human turnover to beating out Manu Ginobili for 6th man of the year in 2007. You want to give all the credit to the assistant coach D'Antoni brought in just to work with him. I dont care. The bottom line is that D'Antoni didnt have anything against young players or allowing players to learn or play as the stupid cliche suggests.

[monosylab1k]

Is this gonna be another instance where you CHANGE a quote from "Seven seconds or less?"

Oh, so you've heard of it? Then you know it's well documented about when Amare's midrange jumper became consistent.

[monosylab1k]

UPDATE: In fact, you will see Amare hit a smooth fade-away from the post to get his 49th and 50th points.

:lmao you don't know how to post youtubes.

[monosylab1k]

Leandro Barbosa went from a human turnover to beating out Manu Ginobili for 6th man of the year in 2007. You want to give all the credit to the assistant coach D'Antoni brought in just to work with him. I dont care. The bottom line is that D'Antoni didnt have anything against young players or allowing players to learn or play as the stupid cliche suggests.

Yeah you really made a case for it.

[da_suns_fan]

Oh, so you've heard of it? Then you know it's well documented about when Amare's midrange jumper became consistent.

I own it and Ive read it. Please tell me what page you are referring to.

Youre full of shit and youve been owned.

[da_suns_fan]

:lmao you don't know how to post youtubes.


Did you see the jumper? Was it there? Nice and smooth, wasnt it?

Do you want to admit you were wrong now?

[Culburn369]

The bottom line is that D'Antoni didnt have anything against young players or allowing players to learn or play as the stupid cliche suggests.

Exactly. It's nothing more than disgruntled masses advancing urban myth.

[da_suns_fan]

Exactly. It's nothing more than disgruntled masses advancing urban myth.

Thanks Cubby...I agree and I think it stemmed from BOREDOM. Bored at seeing the same 8 players play every night and no ring. As if it was D'Antoni's fault the owner only gve him 8 players (one of them James freaking Jones) who were in anyway deserving of a roster spot. The Masses didnt care.

"Lets see DJ Strawberry!"

"Lets see Jackson Vroman and Macej Lampe!" - JMarksJohn

Now, I wanted D'Antoni gone too. But it was more to do with lack of discipline and the fact that he was destroyed by Popovic 3 times in four seasons.

[Culburn369]

Now, I wanted D'Antoni gone too. But it was more to do with lack of discipline and the fact that he was destroyed by Popovic 3 times in four seasons.

You were beat, but, never beaten by San Antonio. You were done in by catastrophe & calamity of your own doing. Your organization's vanity made you throw up the white flag and that's a shame.

[da_suns_fan]

:lmao you don't know how to post youtubes.

btw - Im at work and cant access youtube. I will embed that bad boy for you later. Just for Monos.

[da_suns_fan]

Actually I can do it right now. I cant see image but I can see the url. Just for Monos:


FkWQpkFRMdU

btw - I would give Monos a break if he was mistaken. He's not a Suns fan so he probably doesnt remember each year as well as I do.

But he's claiming that "07 Seconds or less" details how Amare was using his time after the microfracture surgery to develop a jump shot. He goes as far as to say it was "well documented".

Let me be perfectly clear: THIS NEVER HAPPENS IN SEVEN SECONDS OR LESS. MONOS IS FULL OF SHIT.

Edit: Updated now that Im at home.

[monosylab1k]

Actually I can do it right now. I cant see image but I can see the url. Just for Monos:


FkWQpkFRMdU

btw - I would give Monos a break if he was mistaken. He's not a Suns fan so he probably doesnt remember each year as well as I do.

But he's claiming that "07 Seconds or less" details how Amare was using his time after the microfracture surgery to develop a jump shot. He goes as far as to say it was "well documented".

Let me be perfectly clear: THIS NEVER HAPPENS IN SEVEN SECONDS OR LESS. MONOS IS FULL OF SHIT.

:lmao that's that Arizona State education hard at work!

[monosylab1k]

5PDuqk_DSMw

[monosylab1k]

FvGwvnzyw3Q

[da_suns_fan]

Like I said, I was at work. Ive updated the original embed. Here it is as well.


FkWQpkFRMdU


Once again, the video shows Monos is full of shit.

[da_suns_fan]

btw - I remember he hit a fade-away to get 49 and 50 from memory.

Impressive, yes?

[da_suns_fan]

LOL mono is truly shit even without you showing the vid.

I dont know if he IS shit but he's certainly full of shit. Ive never witnessed someone so matter-of-factly make a reference to text when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

[da_suns_fan]

zVT2FHAoAMo&feature=related

Heres Amare scoring 49 last year. You can see his jump shot is exactly the same as it was in 05, further proving Monos is full of shit.

LOL...look at 8:24. :lol

[pauls931]

Did he just flush someone down the drain?

[monosylab1k]

Like I said, I was at work.

Of course you were.

[mojorizen7]

When was this? 1993?

Exactly.
Now, if we want to talk about who was the best regular season show pony squad in the West....then sure, D'Umbtoni's teams were right there at the top for a few years.

Man i hate even posting about this team anymore...

They scored 143 on SacTown tonight and i can already see 'em lining up for more high fives and GO SUNS! bullshit.

Nevermind that they allowed SacTown to score 127.
127!! Sacramento! :lol:lol
KINGS shot 50% FG
the SUNS got outrebounded by Spencer fucking Hawes
SUNS gave up 20(twenty) offensive rebounds to Sac......
but the SUNS got their 140 and i bet it was fun to watch:blah:blah:blah

my bad. fuck em

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Amare is not DJ Strawberry. Not Eric Piatowski. Not Majec Lampe. Not Jackson Vroman. Not Pat Burke etc. These are all players JMJ claimed D'Antoni should have played more.


I think D'antoni should have actually used draft picks rather than told Sarver it was OK to sell them, and furthermore should have not told Sarver it was ok to trade KT AND two first rounders for nothing since he was so one dimensional he didn't know how to use a player like KT and didn't like first round picks.

Again, you didn't answer my question, how many draft picks have been sold since Antoni moved to NY?

[Xylus]

Exactly.
Now, if we want to talk about who was the best regular season show pony squad in the West....then sure, D'Umbtoni's teams were right there at the top for a few years.

Man i hate even posting about this team anymore...

They scored 143 on SacTown tonight and i can already see 'em lining up for more high fives and GO SUNS! bullshit.

Nevermind that they allowed SacTown to score 127.
127!! Sacramento! :lol:lol
KINGS shot 50% FG
the SUNS got outrebounded by Spencer fucking Hawes
SUNS gave up 20(twenty) offensive rebounds to Sac......
but the SUNS got their 140 and i bet it was fun to watch:blah:blah:blah

my bad. fuck em

Then don't. Every post you've made lately has been whiny and pretentious. Take a break, pal.

[mojorizen7]

Then don't. Every post you've made lately has been whiny and pretentious. Take a break, pal.

Sorry X, it's just that this team has ripped every last shred of hope from my guts.....they have absolutely no clue what they're doing.
As for my ripping my team in my own hopeless,bitter style,you'd better get used to it....pal.

[da_suns_fan]

I think D'antoni should have actually used draft picks rather than told Sarver it was OK to sell them, and furthermore should have not told Sarver it was ok to trade KT AND two first rounders for nothing since he was so one dimensional he didn't know how to use a player like KT and didn't like first round picks.

Again, you didn't answer my question, how many draft picks have been sold since Antoni moved to NY?

:lol

You dont have the slightest clue what you are talking about. So D'Antoni TOLD Steve Kerr that it was "ok" to trade away KT and two picks, huh? You have first hand knowledge of this? Hell, you have second hand knowledge of this? I dont think so.

Again, youre a fucking idiot.

btw - The Suns havent traded any picks since D'Antoni left. It doesnt matter. It has nothing to do with D'Antoni or your STUPID FUCKING BELIEF that he didnt like any player that was a first round pick simply for being a first round pick. Of course, if youre a SECOND ROUND PICK (Dijon Thompson, DJ Strawberry), then youre "OK" right? Just dont be a FIRST round pick! He hates those,:lol

Ignorant, naive moron.

[da_suns_fan]

Of course you were.

I was.

Which jump shot did you like the best in that vid?

Where in "Seven seconds or less" is it WELL DOCUMENTED that Amare took the time to develop a jump shot?

Again, youre easy to own cuz you talk out your ass so much.

[monosylab1k]

Where in "Seven seconds or less" is it WELL DOCUMENTED that Amare took the time to develop a jump shot?

If you read it, you know where it is. Why don't you prove me wrong by posting all the text of SSOL that shows Amare didn't work on his jumper? I'll wait till after you're done cooking fries to prove me wrong.

[JMarkJohns]

Considering I hated the signing, I seriously doubt I ever said D'Antoni should play Piatkowski more minutes. There may have been an instance or two where his three-point shooting may have been nice, but I'm gonna need proof I said Pike should get major minutes. My biggest contentions for more playing time have always been Steven Hunter and Barbosa in 2004-05, James Jones in 05-06, James Jones, Kurt Thomas and Jalen Rose (who averaged 14 ppg and 5 rpg the year prior) in 06-07. I did want to see more of Strawberry, but never said he should be given major minutes.

And did you ever think that the fact 2nd-rounders are both cheap (league minimum) and that the contracts aren't entirely guaranteed factors in to the decision to keep 2nd-round draft picks? It's not like D'Antoni loved them so much that he ever played them... 1st-rounders minimum is twice that of the league minimum and is guaranteed for a minimum of two years (three years earlier in the time frame in question). The NBA has a mandatory minimum for players under contract, so, if you have to fill your roster with one or two players, why not with the cheapest, shortest-termed players possible?

It still doesn't change the fact that many 2nd-rounders develop nicely with coaching and playing time.

[da_suns_fan]

Considering I hated the signing, I seriously doubt I ever said D'Antoni should play Piatkowski more minutes. There may have been an instance or two where his three-point shooting may have been nice, but I'm gonna need proof I said Pike should get major minutes. My biggest contentions for more playing time have always been Steven Hunter and Barbosa in 2004-05, James Jones in 05-06, James Jones, Kurt Thomas and Jalen Rose (who averaged 14 ppg and 5 rpg the year prior) in 06-07. I did want to see more of Strawberry, but never said he should be given major minutes.

Then you are quite the exception if you think that D'Antoni didnt play his bench because of the short minutes of LB in 05, James Jones and Kurt Thomas. That really doesnt even make sense. And like I said, James Jones had careery highs in MPG and games started in Phoenix.

Jalen Rose was a joke when he made it to Phoenix. If you dont believe me, why did not a single team pick him up after his one year here?



And did you ever think that the fact 2nd-rounders are both cheap (league minimum) and that the contracts aren't entirely guaranteed factors in to the decision to keep 2nd-round draft picks? It's not like D'Antoni loved them so much that he ever played them... 1st-rounders minimum is twice that of the league minimum and is guaranteed for a minimum of two years (three years earlier in the time frame in question). The NBA has a mandatory minimum for players under contract, so, if you have to fill your roster with one or two players, why not with the cheapest, shortest-termed players possible?

It still doesn't change the fact that many 2nd-rounders develop nicely with coaching and playing time.

There is zero evidence to support that D'Antoni had anything against young players or first round draft picks. DOK is basing this on one quote D'Antoni made in 2006 after they announced they were trading away their picks. What anyone with a brain who around would know is that he was under tremendous pressure to stay under the luxury tax, re-sign Tim Thomas, find a backup point guard for Nash AND win a championship. He said "we're not here to develop players" meaning "we're trying to win a championship NOW, not build for the future". Besides, he had already proven that he could develop lots of young players such as Amare, JJ, LB, Diaw, James Jones etc. He didnt need to prove anything. The team needed veterans leadership and backup pg, not more young players. In hindsight, having Rondo or any of the picks they traded away would be nice right now. But to be honest, if they HAD won in 2007, it would have been worth it.

But they didnt and now we have to hear this STUPID revisionist history from idiot kids like DOK who dont have the slightest clue what theyre talking about.

[da_suns_fan]

If you read it, you know where it is. Why don't you prove me wrong by posting all the text of SSOL that shows Amare didn't work on his jumper? I'll wait till after you're done cooking fries to prove me wrong.

FAIL.

Dont forget you claimed it was "WELL DOCUMENTED", suggesting Amare developing a jump shot while recovering from micro fracture surgery was mentioned MULTIPLE times.

Im just asking for one reference Monos. Prove to everyone youre not completely full of shit.

[JMarkJohns]

What looking at a statistic of MPG and making a blanket statement doesn't take into account, is tendency/context of use. Barbosa and Hunter received very inconsistent minutes in 04-05, Jones received a ton early, then was seldom used once he returned from injury in 05-06, then was seldom used at all in 06-07, and when he was, again, it was for inconsistent minutes. Same with Kurt Thomas in 06-07. I think he played like 15 minutes a game. He was the team's only box-out rebounder. More importantly, KT was ill-used in the secondhalf of Game one vs. San Antonio. He did a great job on Duncan in the first half, then wasn't called upon in the second. When Thomas played big minutes in Game two, the Suns trounced the Spurs. In game three, he was inconsistently used, then in game for used more. Game five is the travesty of ill-use of James Jones, as like Thomas in game one, he was effective for his limited minutes in the first half, then seldom used in the second as the five Suns that did play lost their legs. Better usage of Jones early and late could have salvaged some strength in the starters for late in the game when San Antonio came storming back to win.

Look. MPG is a nice stat, but it doesn't tell the entire story. It's nice that Jones had career high in MPG... Well, he was a bench player in Indiana before he came to Phoenix, and was a starter initially to start the 05-06 season. But his limits in the second half of the year were limited/inconsistent. It's truth. It's not convenient to your position, but truth nonetheless...

[JMarkJohns]

Jones averaged six minutes fewer per game in the postseason than in the regular season of 05-06, despite the Suns frontcourt being thinner in the postseason than regular season.

Then in 06-07, averaged five minutes fewer per game in the postseason than in the regular season.

Care to explain that?

[da_suns_fan]

Jones averaged six minutes fewer per game in the postseason than in the regular season of 05-06, despite the Suns frontcourt being thinner in the postseason than regular season.

Then in 06-07, averaged five minutes fewer per game in the postseason than in the regular season.

Care to explain that?

Sure. Most coaches play a shorter bench during the playoffs because theres a greater need to win. This is why they play their best players as much as possible. Diaw, Tim Thomas, Marion and Raja were all filling in at the 3. As you said, the Suns were this up front, not on the wings. James Jones still got playing time though.

He still got to play in every game. Its not what youre making it out to be. D'Antoni gave him his career highs in both playing time and games started so it makes no sense to call him out when every other coach gave him an even smaller role.

Who else?

[da_suns_fan]

What looking at a statistic of MPG and making a blanket statement doesn't take into account, is tendency/context of use. Barbosa and Hunter received very inconsistent minutes in 04-05, Jones received a ton early, then was seldom used once he returned from injury in 05-06, then was seldom used at all in 06-07, and when he was, again, it was for inconsistent minutes. Same with Kurt Thomas in 06-07. I think he played like 15 minutes a game. He was the team's only box-out rebounder. More importantly, KT was ill-used in the secondhalf of Game one vs. San Antonio. He did a great job on Duncan in the first half, then wasn't called upon in the second. When Thomas played big minutes in Game two, the Suns trounced the Spurs. In game three, he was inconsistently used, then in game for used more. Game five is the travesty of ill-use of James Jones, as like Thomas in game one, he was effective for his limited minutes in the first half, then seldom used in the second as the five Suns that did play lost their legs. Better usage of Jones early and late could have salvaged some strength in the starters for late in the game when San Antonio came storming back to win.

Look. MPG is a nice stat, but it doesn't tell the entire story. It's nice that Jones had career high in MPG... Well, he was a bench player in Indiana before he came to Phoenix, and was a starter initially to start the 05-06 season. But his limits in the second half of the year were limited/inconsistent. It's truth. It's not convenient to your position, but truth nonetheless...


Youre using one series to try to support that D'Antoni didnt use his bench and you accuse me of making blanket statements? :lol

And youre not even accusing of him of not playing KT, just not playing him enough. I couldnt possibly care any less. As you said, KT got heavy minutes at different times throughout the series. And calling it the mis-use of James Jones and Kurt Thomas "a travesty" shows how clueless you truly are.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm not using one series. I've stated that several players had minutes given very inconsistently, even at times when said player was needed most. I don't know how you get "one series" out of two postseasons with Jones that totaled five series, or three series in two years for Thomas. You're skirting the facts presented. They show that Jones and Thomas had their minutes cut by as much as 25-35% from regular season to postseason in a same year. You can look at the minutes of a number of the players mentioned month to month... Eddie House is another player ill-used by D'Antoni in 05-06 Postseason, getting his minutes cut in half, despite recently proving very valuable to a Title cause.

Your excuse is most coaches trim minutes/rotation size. Well, most coaches play more than seven players in the regular season major minutes and can afford to trim minutes/rotation size. In 06-07, D'Antoni played six players roughly 30 minutes or more, then Jones and Thomas roughly 15-20 each. In the postseason, he trimmed Jones and Thomas' minutes to 10-12 without adding another player to the rotation. This taxed the Suns six-man rotation even more at a time of the season when they were already fatigued. This led to games where the Suns led by double-digit points after three quarters, but hadn't the legs to hold on through the fourth. This happened routinely.

And yes, I would say the mis-use of two of the Suns better defenders in a series where multiple games were decided by a possession or two is a travesty, considering the Suns loss in the series effectively ended their Title hopes.

But it's not just one player. It's not just one series. It's not just one season.

But there's no telling you. Facts can't sway you. So go ahead and respond with something that attacks me to take attention away from all the information contrary to your argued points. I'm lazy, I'm a liar, I'm misrepresenting...

Blah, blah, blah... It was tired two years ago when your ass got ran off this site for being worthless. Your contributions are the same now as they were then...

[lefty]

LMAO Suns

The problem with the Suns is that they have always had that run'n'gun culture; it will never change, this whatt this franchise is.

They have come close to winning a title, but that little gap is actually huge: defense.

The 76 Celtics played hard-nosed D
The 93 Bulls played hard-nosed D
The Spurs play nose-destroying D

No D, no title.

[da_suns_fan]

I'm not using one series. I've stated that several players had minutes given very inconsistently, even at times when said player was needed most. I don't know how you get "one series" out of two postseasons with Jones that totaled five series, or three series in two years for Thomas. You're skirting the facts presented. They show that Jones and Thomas had their minutes cut by as much as 25-35% from regular season to postseason in a same year. You can look at the minutes of a number of the players mentioned month to month... Eddie House is another player ill-used by D'Antoni in 05-06 Postseason, getting his minutes cut in half, despite recently proving very valuable to a Title cause.

Your excuse is most coaches trim minutes/rotation size. Well, most coaches play more than seven players in the regular season major minutes and can afford to trim minutes/rotation size. In 06-07, D'Antoni played six players roughly 30 minutes or more, then Jones and Thomas roughly 15-20 each. In the postseason, he trimmed Jones and Thomas' minutes to 10-12 without adding another player to the rotation. This taxed the Suns six-man rotation even more at a time of the season when they were already fatigued. This led to games where the Suns led by double-digit points after three quarters, but hadn't the legs to hold on through the fourth. This happened routinely.

And yes, I would say the mis-use of two of the Suns better defenders in a series where multiple games were decided by a possession or two is a travesty, considering the Suns loss in the series effectively ended their Title hopes.

But it's not just one player. It's not just one series. It's not just one season.

But there's no telling you. Facts can't sway you. So go ahead and respond with something that attacks me to take attention away from all the information contrary to your argued points. I'm lazy, I'm a liar, I'm misrepresenting...

Blah, blah, blah... It was tired two years ago when your ass got ran off this site for being worthless. Your contributions are the same now as they were then...

So you accuse me of personal attacks and then make a personal attack. :lol

Nice. And what "Facts" are you talking about? As we both agree, KT and James Jones both got off the bench. You think he didnt play them enough. Bottom line is he had an 8 man rotation (like almost ALL coaches in the playoffs). You think they should have been given MORE minutes. Like I said, I DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR "COACHING/SUBSTITUTION" PHILOSOPHY! The point is, D'Antoni did, in fact, play all of his capable players SIGNIFICANT minutes. In James Jones' case, his CAREER HIGH.

But theres no telling you. Facts and numbers dont sway you in any way. Besides, youve now gone to "D'Antoni didnt play his bench.......enough....in the playoffs". Thats much different from the stupid "D'Antoni didnt' play his bench or develop players" bullshit you were spewing at the beginning of this thread.

Thanks for dropping Jalen Rose though from your "list". That one was just ridiculous. Im claiming victory in this stupid argument.

[JMarkJohns]

Claim all you want. Those with sense know better...

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It has nothing to do with D'Antoni or your STUPID FUCKING BELIEF that he didnt like any player that was a first round pick simply for being a first round pick.

Show me where I said that. I said Antoni didn't want to coach rookies, I never said he didn't want to coach first round picks.


What's funny is DSF is slob knocking Antoni in this entire thread, but then he'll admit he wanted Antoni gone when he left.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Just think, if the Suns had Antoni, THEY'D BE AS GOOD AS THE KNICKS!!!