McDonald: Popovich shifts to real-game rotation [Archive]

duncan228

10-18-2009, 11:21 PM

Popovich shifts to real-game rotation (http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Popovich_shifts_to_real-game_rotation.html)
Jeff McDonald

The Dwayne Jones Era ended last week without fanfare. The Curtis Jerrells Era appears to be entering its twilight as well.

It's past the midway point in October, which means the days of Spurs games morphing into a Development League All-Star game not long after intermission are done.

With nine days and two preseason games left until the start of the regular season, Spurs coach Gregg Popovich intends to shift his focus from evaluating young talent in training camp to preparing his veteran players for the games that count.

Translation: When the Spurs next take the floor Tuesday, there will be no jacket required for Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and the rest of the team's regulars.

“We'll probably get a little bit more of a rotation, similar to the minutes some of the guys are going to play in the real games,” Popovich said Sunday.

If you ask Popovich's point guard, it's about time.

Parker says he is eager to see the Spurs' new-look roster — which includes newcomers Richard Jefferson, Antonio McDyess, Theo Ratliff, Keith Bogans and rookie DeJuan Blair — in its entirety.

“The next game is going to be pretty good to see where we're at,” Parker said.

The rest of the preseason has provided but a mere tease.

As is his custom, Popovich has carefully managed the exhibition minutes of his more established players, allowing the youngsters to fight for a place in the team's pecking order. On any given night, most of the Spurs' stars and veterans made either a cameo appearance or no appearance at all.

Only once this preseason have the Spurs suited up their full projected starting lineup: In the Oct. 9 victory over Olympiacos, each Spurs regular played, but only Ginobili eclipsed the 20-minute mark.

Other than that, the glimpses of the Spurs' full capabilities have been witnessed by a select few on the team's practice court.

“That's why I say I can't wait to do that in games,” Parker said. “Right now, we're just practicing. Everybody is learning the new plays, and it's looking good. I want to see what happens in the games.”

Jefferson, who has yet to log more than 19 minutes in a game and who sat out Friday's victory over Cleveland, said increased time with the core group should do him good.

He says the chemistry between the new Spurs and old Spurs — “the learners and returners,” in Popovich's parlance — is still a work in progress.

“You won't be playing your best basketball now, but that doesn't give you an excuse to start slow or anything like that,” Jefferson said. “We know the coaches are going to expect a lot from us. It's up to us to spend the necessary time to get the system down and stay focused enough to remember the things we need to.”

More than anything, Jefferson — the Spurs' likely starter at small forward — is looking forward to the opportunity to get tired.

“When you're playing six or seven minutes at a time, you don't really have your legs yet,” Jefferson said. “This next game, I'm going to be fatigued. It will be good to get out there, be fatigued, and get to fight through it.”

The final two exhibition games should also be of particular use to Ginobili, who is still working his way back into shape after spending the summer rehabilitating a stress fracture in his right leg.

He has shown signs of rust in limited minutes so far, a condition for which he knows but one remedy.

“I just need to play,” Ginobili said.

Held out of two of the Spurs' past three games, Ginobili says he would like to log one 30-minute night before the preseason ends. Whether Popovich intends on that remains to be seen.

“He's starting to get his rhythm,” Popovich said. “He looks bouncy. I'd say he's about 85 percent in shape. So he's on the right track, and he'll be ready to go when the season starts.”

Manufan909

10-18-2009, 11:45 PM

My dream for the season rotation (first 10 games) as well as the last preseason games is:

1) Balir averages close to or more mpg than Bonner.

2) Finley averages no more than fifteen minutes.

3) Hairston averages at least ten (and makes the team)

4) Dyess and RJ start alongside TD, TP, and RMJ.

I have a crap load more, but those are some of the things I most want to see.

DJB

10-18-2009, 11:54 PM

All I have to say is that if Bonner starts over McDyess in the regular season, I am going to lose my effing mind.

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 12:03 AM

1) Balir averages close to or more mpg than Bonner.
That could very well happen. Blair's interior scoring and rebounding should be useful enough to earn him some minutes, but the drop in Bonner's minutes will be due to the presence of Latif and Dice. I think people will be pleasantly surprised by Bonner's production when he's not being asked to defend some of the best bigs in the league one-on-one so often this year.

2) Finley averages no more than fifteen minutes.
See above. Fin should really be able to shine if he's allowed to come in when the Spurs need a gunner and not be asked to cover Lebron James or Kobe Bryant. The only potential stumbling block to this is if Mason continues to stink it up from a defensive standpoint and is unable to score, or if Pop decides to attempt the Mason at backup point experiment again.

3) Hairston averages at least ten (and makes the team)
It's almost sad that the second part of the above even has to be stated. Hairston looks like a player to me, and has almost from day one. He's going to need to make good decisions at all times in order to earn the minutes to average that many points. I'll settle for somewhere around one block per game, good defense and hitting the one or two open shots he's going to see. Those things are almost going to be mandatory early on, but if Pop goes ahead and keeps him, we should expect him to get thrown in there to see how he does.

4) Dyess and RJ start alongside TD, TP, and RMJ.
Agreed. That's the lineup we've all been waiting for, and the sooner the better. We'll get an idea how ready they are. Wouldn't break my heart to see Manu in that lineup either now that Finley's not the alternative.

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 12:04 AM

All I have to say is that if Bonner starts over McDyess in the regular season, I am going to lose my effing mind.

There's an outside chance that it will be matchup-related, but the reality is probably that the only thing keeping Bonner starting for any length of time is the familiarity of the new bigs with the system. Again, seeing how they play in the last two preseason games will tell us a lot.

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 12:11 AM

Wohoo, I'm started to get quoted more, I might have surpassed n00b status!:greedy

That could very well happen. Blair's interior scoring and rebounding should be useful enough to earn him some minutes, but the drop in Bonner's minutes will be due to the presence of Latif and Dice. I think people will be pleasantly surprised by Bonner's production when he's not being asked to defend some of the best bigs in the league one-on-one so often this year.

Indeed.

See above. Fin should really be able to shine if he's allowed to come in when the Spurs need a gunner and not be asked to cover Lebron James or Kobe Bryant. The only potential stumbling block to this is if Mason continues to stink it up from a defensive standpoint and is unable to score, or if Pop decides to attempt the Mason at backup point experiment again.

I doubt he will, with all his praising of Hill this summer.

It's almost sad that the second part of the above even has to be stated. Hairston looks like a player to me, and has almost from day one. He's going to need to make good decisions at all times in order to earn the minutes to average that many points. I'll settle for somewhere around one block per game, good defense and hitting the one or two open shots he's going to see. Those things are almost going to be mandatory early on, but if Pop goes ahead and keeps him, we should expect him to get thrown in there to see how he does.
Oop, sorry. I meant minutes.:dizzy

Agreed. That's the lineup we've all been waiting for, and the sooner the better. We'll get an idea how ready they are. Wouldn't break my heart to see Manu in that lineup either now that Finley's not the alternative.

It might break mine. The 2nd unit will be more youngins than anything, I don't want Finley with Hill, Mason, Blair, and Bonner/Theo/Ian. The Spurs need a proven creator, and I sure as hell don't want Tony to become the 6th man.

completely deck

10-19-2009, 12:16 AM

All I have to say is that if Bonner starts over McDyess in the regular season, I am going to lose my effing mind.

Are you going to be the same guy who flips his lid about a game before the all star break?

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 12:16 AM

Oop, sorry. I meant minutes.:dizzy

:lol Sorry. I didn't even think about that. I thought that was kind of optimistic, even for a Hairston cheerleader like me. I'd love to see him start getting minutes. I'd like more for Pop to start letting the youngsters make their mistakes early in the season like he did with Jack and Parker and Manu.

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 12:24 AM

:lol Sorry. I didn't even think about that. I thought that was kind of optimistic, even for a Hairston cheerleader like me. I'd love to see him start getting minutes. I'd like more for Pop to start letting the youngsters make their mistakes early in the season like he did with Jack and Parker and Manu.

I hope so. I didn't follow the Spurs back then, but I hope Blair, Hairston, and Ian all get a solid chance this year.

Are you going to be the same guy who flips his lid about a game before the all star break?

I know you weren't talking to me, but since I would have a similar reaction, I have to respond.

Are you the same guy who has given up on Pop's rotations? Because I'm not, and unless the Spurs are playing a meaningless game, the opposing line averages at 6'10", and Dyess played 30+ minutes the night before, I don't see how Bonner starting could be defended. Yes, he spreads the offense, but I want a solid defensive big to play alongside Tim. Preferably a shot blocker, but I don't think Ian or Theo will be starting much.

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 12:34 AM

Don't forget that Bonner IS a solid defensive big, but not when he's playing out of position or being asked to guard some of the best post players in the game. When there's a matchup with an opponent who's going to be getting all the touches in the post, Bonner's not going to be in the game for an extended period like he was last year. Bonner's not a big shot-blocker, but he stays between his man and the basket, manages not to foul excessively, and has a hand in their face when the shot goes up. That's about all you can ask from a guy who's never been a starting NBA center but was asked to play that position.

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 12:48 AM

True, he was decent on Dirk in the POs. But missing almost every shot he threw up made it that much more unbearable to see Gooden/KT not starting. To be fair, none of the Spurs bigs in that series could handle Dirk. Fab was good playing him, but iirc he was injured/out of shape.

completely deck

10-19-2009, 12:59 AM

I know you weren't talking to me, but since I would have a similar reaction, I have to respond.

You should have stopped there.

Are you the same guy who has given up on Pop's rotations? Because I'm not, and unless the Spurs are playing a meaningless game, the opposing line averages at 6'10", and Dyess played 30+ minutes the night before, I don't see how Bonner starting could be defended. Yes, he spreads the offense, but I want a solid defensive big to play alongside Tim. Preferably a shot blocker, but I don't think Ian or Theo will be starting much.

What the heck are you talking about? I'm one of the biggest Pop homers that there is on this board. I was asking if that kid was going to be one of the ones who implodes here on the forums in late November because we lose a game. Get your shit straight

Blackjack

10-19-2009, 01:04 AM

:lol Sorry. I didn't even think about that. I thought that was kind of optimistic, even for a Hairston cheerleader like me. I'd love to see him start getting minutes.

Do we need to hold off on making a legit C.O.H. thread/mini-forum until he makes the team, or should we just be: 'Malik FTW!'

I was trying to think of the charter members, guy's who've been singing his praises basically since Day One, and you were one of the first that came to mind...

Off the top of my head I remember: Harlem, benefactor, and iirc, DPG and Senor..

Who else has been jockin' this kid from the jump?

I'd like more for Pop to start letting the youngsters make their mistakes early in the season like he did with Jack and Parker and Manu.

:tu

I'd even like him to give Ian and/or Blair some opportunities to start early on.

'Dyess, Tim, and Theo are up there in age and if they can steal minutes during the regular season for them by playing the likes of Ian and Blair, I'm all for it.

This team has more than enough talent to secure a top 3 seed without going balls-to-the-wall, and giving the young fella's time allows you to keep your team fresh and develop depth all at the same time.

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 01:09 AM

What the heck are you talking about? I'm one of the biggest Pop homers that there is on this board. I was asking if that kid was going to be one of the ones who implodes here on the forums in late November because we lose a game. Get your shit straight

I can't officially speak for DB, but I'm pretty sure we both meant we'd freak out over who started at C, not who won or lost. What the heck are you talking about? And when I put "given up on Pop's rotations", I should have put "agrees with Pop almost all of the time". Neither I nor DB would agree with Pop deciding to start Bonner over Dice. We would strongly disagree if Pop did that, and that alone. The Spurs losing would only add fuel to the fire.

Oh, and since the internet is free last time I checked, I can reply to any post in any thread of this site. I could even reply myself if I felt like being a douche bag... or had multiple personality disorder.
:rollin

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 01:11 AM

Do we need to hold off on making a legit C.O.H. thread/mini-forum until he makes the team, or should we just be: 'Malik FTW!'

I was trying to think of the charter members, guy's who've been singing his praises basically since Day One, and you were one of the first that came to mind...

Off the top of my head I remember: Harlem, benefactor, and iirc, DPG and Senor..

Who else has been jockin' this kid from the jump?

If I started pushing for him in the preseason, can I be a charter member? I fell for his bad SL showing.:depressed

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 01:21 AM

Do we need to hold off on making a legit C.O.H. thread/mini-forum until he makes the team, or should we just be: 'Malik FTW!'
The day I refer to him on this message board by his first name, you'll know he's arrived. As impressed as I've been with his play, I've been holding back on welcoming him to the family. He's going to have to earn some skins to deserve that moniker with this franchise.

:tu

I'd even like him to give Ian and/or Blair some opportunities to start early on.

'Dyess, Tim, and Theo are up there in age and if they can steal minutes during the regular season for them by playing the likes of Ian and Blair, I'm all for it.

This team has more than enough talent to secure a top 3 seed without going balls-to-the-wall, and giving the young fella's time allows you to keep your team fresh and develop depth all at the same time.

Much in the same way I was happy with the departure of TO from the Cowboys as it took away any excuse for the other people who were fucking up the team, I'm excited at the idea of letting Mahinmi start. If there's any truth to the belief that he's disinterested by D-league, summer league or preseason, putting him into the starting lineup on opening night should jolt him into gear. Not knowing the system is also not an option for him, and there are plenty of bigs needing minutes if he gets into foul trouble.

As for Blair, I'd really like to see him take over the sixth man role for this franchise from Manu now that Finley doesn't have to start. Blair is young, energetic, able to score without having plays drawn up for him and seems undaunted by pressure or a big stage. He'll be able to get a lot of garbage points and turn bad shots into scoring opportunities. Having him coming off the bench just has no downsides in my opinion, and the earlier the better as far as I'm concerned.

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 01:23 AM

If I started pushing for him in the preseason, can I be a charter member? I fell for his bad SL showing.:depressed

Which summer league was he bad in? He dunked on Yao and stuffed Tayshaun Prince last year.

Blackjack

10-19-2009, 02:12 AM

The day I refer to him on this message board by his first name, you'll know he's arrived. As impressed as I've been with his play, I've been holding back on welcoming him to the family. He's going to have to earn some skins to deserve that moniker with this franchise.

Well, whenever you do fully come around, and I believe you will, there's a place for you on the C.O.H board for you to chair.

Much in the same way I was happy with the departure of TO from the Cowboys as it took away any excuse for the other people who were fucking up the team, I'm excited at the idea of letting Mahinmi start. If there's any truth to the belief that he's disinterested by D-league, summer league or preseason, putting him into the starting lineup on opening night should jolt him into gear. Not knowing the system is also not an option for him, and there are plenty of bigs needing minutes if he gets into foul trouble.

As for Blair, I'd really like to see him take over the sixth man role for this franchise from Manu now that Finley doesn't have to start. Blair is young, energetic, able to score without having plays drawn up for him and seems undaunted by pressure or a big stage. He'll be able to get a lot of garbage points and turn bad shots into scoring opportunities. Having him coming off the bench just has no downsides in my opinion, and the earlier the better as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I'm much more a proponent of Mahinmi getting starts, as he has tools that can compliment and thrive off of Tim playing the weakside both offensively and defensively, and Mahinmi seems to 'get up' for the game more against the higher levels of competition.

Blair is a little like Manu in that they can change the game with their energy, they can bring the crowd into the game, and it doesn't really matter if they're starting or coming off the bench; they're going to give you what they're going to give you.

The only reason I wouldn't mind seeing Blair get a few starts is because it's a good long-term approach. Like I said before, you save some of your veterans legs and you develop depth at the same time. Plus, there's a good possibility you're going to need Blair come the Playoffs, so accelerating the learning-curve and getting him comfortable with the team and terminology, on both ends of the court, would be more than a wise thing to do.

peskypesky

10-19-2009, 02:26 AM

mesothorny

10-19-2009, 02:36 AM

Why would Pop even consider starting Mahinmi, especially with all of this year's new pieces? We need to establish chemistry ASAP.

alfahdlan

10-19-2009, 03:16 AM

Blair is a little like Manu in that they can change the game with their energy, they can bring the crowd into the game, and it doesn't really matter if they're starting or coming off the bench; they're going to give you what they're going to give you.

The only reason I wouldn't mind seeing Blair get a few starts is because it's a good long-term approach. Like I said before, you save some of your veterans legs and you develop depth at the same time. Plus, there's a good possibility you're going to need Blair come the Playoffs, so accelerating the learning-curve and getting him comfortable with the team and terminology, on both ends of the court, would be more than a wise thing to do.

scholarly written:flag:

Chieflion

10-19-2009, 03:30 AM

alfahdlan

10-19-2009, 03:52 AM

#2!

10-19-2009, 05:27 AM

#2!

10-19-2009, 05:29 AM

Though I couldn't blame him for being himself this time...some of these posts blow.

mountainballer

10-19-2009, 05:47 AM

the game is played in rotations, the topic is about rotations, so why not talk about rotations instead of always talk about positions and starters and bench players??

we will see a frontcourt, a wing and a PG rotation (we could even see the wing and PG rotation just as the backcourt rotation)

front court will be: #1 Tim - #2 Dice - #3 ? - #4 ? (#5 isn't part of the regular rotation)

wing will be: #1 RJ - #2 Manu - #3 Mason - #4 ? (#5 isn't part of the regular rotation)

PG will be: #1Tony - #2 Hill (#3 isn't part of the regular rotation)

the big question will be, who makes as #3 and #4 the front court rotation?
Blair has a good chance and I would guess at least in the first 2 months Bonner has the edge over Ratliff, Haislip and Ian. so I would think the season starts with #3 Bonner and #4 Blair and Ratliff at #5. depending on match ups Ratliff will see rotations minutes in some games, likely at the expense of Blair. (Haislip and Ian will be on the inactive list)
in the wing rotation the #4 spot will very likely be Finley. if Hairston makes the team, the #5 will be between Bogans and him. the fact that Hairston could play in Austin when he is on the inactive list, will likely make Bogans the #5.
at PG there isn't much left to discuss, now that it is a lock that Pop sees Hill as the back up PG. here the major question will be, how many minutes Pop decides to play Hill at SG, sometimes alongside Tony. (I guess this minutes will come from Masons account)

MaNu4Tres

10-19-2009, 05:53 AM

MaNu4Tres

10-19-2009, 06:02 AM

This is my dream rotation come late February and on forward til mid-late June:

Starters
PG- Tony Parker 34 MPG
SG- Manu Ginobili 28 MPG
SF- Richard Jefferson 33 MPG
PF- Tim Duncan 32 MPG
C- Antonio McDyess 26mpg

Bench
SF/PF- Andres Nocioni 25 MPG
PF- DeJuan Blair 18 MPG
PG- George Hill 16 MPG
C- Theo Ratliff 12 mpg
SG/SF- Michael Finley or Malik Hairston 10-12 mpg
C/PF- Ian Mahimni 8 mpg

Then Bogans and Haislip would be insurance players on the inactive list.

Of course this happens if Mason/ Bonner get traded for Nocioni. One can dream.

Chieflion

10-19-2009, 06:08 AM

MaNu4Tres

10-19-2009, 06:14 AM

Richard Jefferson would see an immense reduction in production if he only gets 33 minutes per game. He used to play at the mid to high 30s for minutes. I wonder if he will be blasted if he only scores 14 a game.

As long as he shoots an efficient 14 points a game that would be great. This team is talented 1-12 everyone's averages will drop to some extent because of the decline in number of touches everyone will see.

Mason's touches will decrease significantly as will his minutes from 30 to the low 20's.

Jefferson was the best offensive player last year for a horrible Bucks team, which was a reason for his 19 ppg. He saw the most touches last year on his team and that will change with him playing with Tim, Tony, and Manu. His points per game will go down.

Finley won't see 28 minutes a game like he did last year, so his touches will decrease obviously as will his points per game.

Matt Bonner will share minutes now with Dice and Blair so his points per game and rebounding will decline.

Duncan/ Parker/ Manu all have Jefferson now to share the load, so their touches will decline slightly as well.

Don't expect any Spurs to set any career highs in PPG this year. That will be fine.

I'd pay more attention to field goal percentage than anything else.

Chieflion

10-19-2009, 06:16 AM

As long as he shoots an efficient 14 points a game that would be great. This team is talented 1-12 everyone's averages will drop to some extent because of the decline in number of touches everyone will see.

Mason's touches will decrease significantly as will his minutes from 30 to the low 20's.

Jefferson was the best offensive player last year for a horrible Bucks team, which was a reason for his 19 ppg.

Finley won't see 28 minutes a game like he did last year, so his touches will decrease obviously.

Duncan/ Parker/ Manu all have Jefferson now to share the load, so their touches will decline slightly as well.

Don't expect any Spurs to set any career highs in PPG this year. That will be fine.

I'd pay more attention to field goal percentage than anything else.
Not really. I would look at their TS% and eFG%. Those are more accurate than raw FG%. If we looked at FG%, all of us would jump to the conclusion that Hill cannot score efficiently. He is still below average at those departments though.

MaNu4Tres

10-19-2009, 06:18 AM

Not really. I would look at their TS% and eFG%. Those are more accurate than raw FG%. If we looked at FG%, all of us would jump to the conclusion that Hill cannot score efficiently.

Same thing it's relative.

You get my point.

#2!

10-19-2009, 06:18 AM

Richard Jefferson would see an immense reduction in production if he only gets 33 minutes per game. He used to play at the mid to high 30s for minutes. I wonder if he will be blasted if he only scores 14 a game.

If its a decently efficient 14 pts, to go along with something else(good rebounding numbers, and/or defense worthy of being called "best wing defender"), then no.

If he isn't doing 2/3 of that then he is Jason Richardson.

Mel_13

10-19-2009, 07:00 AM

There is a part of me that wants to see Pop start the season with Finley and Bonner starting and playing 30 mpg. Like a good emetic, it would result in the projectile expulsion of some of the more emo posters here.

Seventyniner

10-19-2009, 07:22 AM

Starters

PG-Tony Parker - 32-34 mpg
SG-Roger Mason - 20-22 mpg
SF-Richard Jefferson-31-33 mpg
PF-Tim Duncan - 30-32 mpg
C-Antonio McDyess- 24-26 mpg

Bench
SG/SF-Manu Ginobili - 27-29 mpg
PG-George Hill - 15-17 mpg
PF-Matt Bonner - 15-17 mpg
PF-DeJuan Blair - 15-17 mpg
SG/SF-Michael Finley - 10-12 mpg
C-Theo Ratliff - 8-10 mpg

Then we have one of Hairston/ Bogans/ Mahimni/ Haislip on the active roster and the other 3 on the injured reserved.

Solid list IMO. I wouldn't be surprised to see Manu and Hill getting slightly fewer minutes, and those going to Finley, and at least early in the season, Bonner would take a few from Blair. I'm not saying this is a good thing, just what I think will happen.

Also, you don't have to call it "injured reserve" anymore; it's now the "inactive list." The team just designates the 12 active players before each game, and the rest of the roster is inactive. Teams no longer have to make up fake injuries for players they just don't want to play.

MaNu4Tres

10-19-2009, 07:28 AM

Solid list IMO. I wouldn't be surprised to see Manu and Hill getting slightly fewer minutes, and those going to Finley, and at least early in the season, Bonner would take a few from Blair. I'm not saying this is a good thing, just what I think will happen.

Also, you don't have to call it "injured reserve" anymore; it's now the "inactive list." The team just designates the 12 active players before each game, and the rest of the roster is inactive. Teams no longer have to make up fake injuries for players they just don't want to play.

Pop plans on sitting Manu and Tim on the first or second game of back to backs. Probably the one against the lesser opponent. Therefore having depth even going to the inactive list will be more important than in previous years.

And yeah I know it's called inactive list, I wasn't paying attention. Hence the way I correctly named it the inactive list on my " dream rotation" above. My bad.

Whisky Dog

10-19-2009, 07:35 AM

Nice read but it 's going to be shaky at times, there will be losing streaks (hopefully not long ones) as the team builds chemistry. It will be fun to see all the people on here implode after a couple of losses.

kobyz

10-19-2009, 07:41 AM

this year Popovich need to make duncan average 28 mpg in the regular season.

benefactor

10-19-2009, 11:50 AM

A couple of things for me in regards to the rotation:

I have no problem starting the season with Matt Bonner starting at C. He will not play near the minutes he played last year and after McDyess gets acclimated to the system and finds himself some rhythm he will supplant him. By the ASB Bonner will likely be relegated to the role he was always meant to play...a shooting big that can come in and knock down a few threes while stretching the defense by drawing the opposing team's bigs out of paint.

I like the idea of Blair as a front line version of Manu. As we have already seen, his knack for knowing where the ball is should give him many easy offensive opportunities around the rim. Those easy buckets could be very valuable when dealing with some of our offensive slumps. Depending on how committed Pop is to getting McDyess and Ratliff comfortable with the system he may or may not see a whole lot of minutes right off the bat, but I am confident he will work is way into the rotation. His ability to play defense will probably dictate a lot of this...but I think that his rebounding may cancel out some of his limitations defensively. As long as he can stay out of foul trouble and at least be serviceable in that area he should get minutes.

Speaking of Manu, anyone who thinks Manu should be playing more than 25 minutes per game during the regular season is willing to go ahead and concede the season right now. I can almost guarantee that he will not make it through the regular season if he is asked to play anywhere close to 30 MPG. I love Manu as much as the next man, but he is still Manu and no one is going to change that. He is still going to play balls out every single time he takes the floor...and El Contusion is no longer able to absorb the type of punishment that 25yr old Manu could. TBQH though, I am not really worried about this. None of this is foreign to Pop and he will as careful as ever with Manu this year. Thank God for RJ, as he is going to be crucial in this process.

As for the rest of the players....Mahinmi, Hairston, Bogans, etc...those guys destinies are in their own hands. I am really pulling hard for Hairston and Mahinmi. Both of these guys have tools that could be very valuable to this team from a depth perspective. The challenge for them will be to learn to stay within themselves. They don't have to do too much...they just need to do what they know how to do.

anakha

10-19-2009, 12:20 PM

I foresee much wailing, gnashing of teeth, sackcloth and ashes if Bonner and Finley start on opening day.

ElNono

10-19-2009, 01:05 PM

My guess:

Starters
PG-Tony Parker
SG-Michael Finley
SF-Richard Jefferson
PF-Tim Duncan
C-Matt Bonner

Bench
SG/SF-Manu Ginobili
PG-George Hill
PF/C-Antonio McDyess
SG-Roger Mason
C-Theo Ratliff

and sporadic minutes for Blair and Mahinmi here and there at season's start...

peskypesky

10-19-2009, 05:10 PM

What fool would play Bonner before McDyess, Blair and Ratliff?

The Truth #6

10-19-2009, 05:34 PM

I think once Blair continues to dominate, it will be obvious that he deserves more minutes than Bonner. However, Dice's physical play will make up for Bonner's lack of ability to be an "ass kicking 4" (to quote RC Buford), which will make Bonner more effective than before. But within 10 games, unless Blair disappoints, I think Bonner's minutes will decline. But who knows - maybe Blair and Bonner can coexist on the court together? A lot of our either/or competitions and scenarios are theoretical and don't always reproduce themselves on the court.

Pop might play Theo and Finley every other game, as well as the same for Ian and Hairston. Pop loves to experiment with lineups, and so this could be a fun rollercoaster up until January.

BTW - re: COH, I always assumed Mountain Baller was the original poster to stick up for Malik in the original Summer League, even when Malik appeared to be 100% god awful, at least to the untrained eye.

Obstructed_View

10-19-2009, 06:00 PM

What fool would play Bonner before McDyess, Blair and Ratliff?

If Bonner knows the defense better, what fool wouldn't play him before those guys, at least at first? I'm all for throwing the young guys in and seeing if tehy can swim, but Dice and Latif aren't young guys, and at this point Blair is less of an NBA center than Bonner is, for better or worse.

z0sa

10-19-2009, 06:18 PM

The rotation is a mystery right now. A lot of different scenarios are going to play out over the course of this season. There's a lot of talent but we need to be a truly cohesive unit if we want another title. That bonding time needs to start now because there's other teams out there ahem Lakers Celtics that will not be having this problem and will be off to the races early and throughout the season. Before someone says we shouldn't be setting our goal that high right now, no I don't think we will try and race them for the #1 overall seed (though that would kick ass if we got out to that kind of start while still keeping everyone's minutes down). We need to develop a cohesion like theirs if we are to beat them and there's a lot of new faces to incorporate.

So it goes like this: Tim can't do it all anymore, and he'll play the lowest minutes of his career. Tony will be Tony but he needs some help. Our additions, including a healthy Manu, need to really make a splash, a big one too. I can only hope this will be the rotation (minute wise, who fucking knows) initially:

G Parker
G Mason
F Jefferson
F Tim
C Bonner

Manu, then McDyess and Finley are the first guys off the bench. Dejuan will get his chances. For how long, who knows. Pop proved to me last season that attempting to predict the motives behind his moves in a sane manner is futile. You can only hope he knows what he's doing. You must completely trust in Pop and therefore, its only best to simply consider what you know about his tendencies rather than what you know about basketball.

There's a lot of pressure on RJ specifically. He needs to seamlessly transition into the offense and pack a real punch while he's doing it. He also must be playing above average D night in and night out with Bowen gone and a lot of big time perimeter players ready to finally make the Spurs their bitch. Manu is 100% but he's still got a ways to go before he can truly become that Manu again, including on the defensive end, and even then, you know Pop is going to micromanage the hell out of his minutes. A lot of pressure on RJ and he's going to play the most minutes. Manu will get around 25MPG but he's going to get rest anytime Pop feels insecure (cue Finley haters)

The next issue concerns our big men. McDyess really excites me - if he can sort of be that big guy that brings another presence, defensively, in the paint when we really need it, that'd be great. I know he can do it. I really dig his outside touch on the offensive end, as well as (what's left of) his abilities and size inside. We desperately need another physical presence in there.

I'm confident in Bonner. He's coming off a good season and he's going to be more open than ever. If he improves in a couple areas, I think he might be more valuable than most here believe. If Bonner and the others rebound up to their ability .. damn.

Speaking of which - DeJuan, now this is a complete wildcard. Who knows what he might bring to the table. He's going to have to play pretty fuckin good to secure a place in the rotation night in, and night out. Knowing Pop, he's really gonna have to tear some arms off. So does he have a lot of heart? Hell yeah. He could definitely do it. He has the physical attributes and that nose for the ball. I've got my fingers crossed. If he can rebound and play passibly on D without fouling, he just might be good enough to really bring a completely new skillset to the table. Blair rebounding would really take some weight off Timmy and McDyess's knees.

That leaves Ian and Theo. I've got high hopes for Ian Mahinmi. I was hoping this season would be the one, so to speak. I still think he could play a role, but to what extent, you just can't be sure. Theo needs to stay healthy and stay on the bench except when we need him. He's got the ability to play some D but who knows how long he's got. The rest of the guys will shuffle in and out, but who knows about their roles.

PDXSpursFan

10-19-2009, 06:32 PM

No Bonner, Finley or Mason on the starting lineup please :nope

Chieflion

10-19-2009, 06:42 PM

No Bonner, Finley or Mason on the starting lineup please :nope
Mason is the best guy to start at the 2 because of his ability to share the ball handling load and shooting ability. No way he does not start. The wuestion would be how many minutes he plays as he is undersized at the 3 and not good enough as a decision maker and ball handler to pass off as a 1 effectively for long stretches.

z0sa

10-19-2009, 06:45 PM

No Bonner, Finley or Mason on the starting lineup please :nope

Bonner and McDyess will switch spots fairly early in the season unless it works out just perfectly (and Pop will still experiment with it and many weird lineups throughout the season), which won't happen. Dyess needs to start and he will prove himself that player quickly. He's already penciled in for the job at some point.

Mason, he's one of those guys that could be something special again, or just a spot player. He needs to improve defensively but I'm sure he can do it. I thought he had pretty good defensive stretches last season for being an essentially unknown guy, who was supposed to make a difference (whether or not Pop fucked his psyche up last season, we'll never know - but this season will be indicative of just how skilled he is).

Finley the same, Hairston the same - these are guys, especially Finley, that could see big swathes of playing time or DNPs, depending on how bad we need them to step up. One of them, hopefully Hairston, carves out a niche for himself. We need another wing defender that isn't a liability on the other end.

The Truth #6

10-19-2009, 07:02 PM

There is a definite ceiling to Bonner's game and right now his head is poking through it. Let's put it this way: if Bonner plays more minutes then Dice or Blair by the end of the season, then this isn't a good sign, indicating Blair and Dice got lost in the system, injured, or somehow just didn't deliver.

Bonner lighting it up in preseason (preseason!) is fools gold in my opinion. Not to be harsh - but that's classic. He rips it up in meaningless games and fades when it counts. That's the fact until we are proven otherwise. Hopefully he's improved and reinvented himself but I wouldn't want to lean on him past the ASB. If this is an elaborate ploy to improve his trade value then YES YES play him, but with his expiring contract and desire to win a new one, he could make an excellent trade candidate at the trading deadline, especially since we'll need an opening in the frontcourt if Splitter is indeed coming next year now that no one wants to buy Spanish tile. (But who knows - Theo or Ian could be the opening for Splitter, and not Bonner, assuming Bonner takes a pay cut.)

Pop is going to make Blair move mountains to get established minutes, and this might be a good motivating factor, though to be honest it seems laughable that he's going to have to prove himself to be better than Bonner for more than a month.

z0sa

10-19-2009, 07:13 PM

There is a definite ceiling to Bonner's game and right now his head is poking through it. Let's put it this way: if Bonner plays more minutes then Dice or Blair by the end of the season, then this isn't a good sign, indicating Blair and Dice got lost in the system, injured, or somehow just didn't deliver.

I agree Bonner cannot be our 2nd best big if we want another title this year. However, I doubt McDyess isn't up for the challenge. He absolutely wants to fulfill a big role on a title team. That leaves Bonner and Blair to clean up the rest of the minutes.

We're going to need offense from him throughout the season because he's gonna be the only guy they can sag off of sometimes. Eventually he should come off the bench but still filling his time with good things.

Bonner lighting it up in preseason (preseason!) is fools gold in my opinion.

Bonner had a pretty good regular season last year. I guess you could call it fool's gold, but I'd rather not bring up last playoffs because its pointless. You don't need Bonner scoring points for you except off wide open shots come playoff time or you aren't doing shit anyway.

Not to be harsh - but that's classic. He rips it up in meaningless games and fades when it counts. That's the fact until we are proven otherwise. Hopefully he's improved and reinvented himself but I wouldn't want to lean on him past the ASB.

The big man situation is not exactly stacked. We could get some really fine production some nights, while others we're going to be relying on Bonner to nail shots and play D (which is the most underrated aspect of his game).

And Bonner starting if logical because he knows the sets and he knows the system. He's actually one of the returners and he's got some experience. Even if he isn't a huge contributor on the floor, he's definitely doing good things in practice for all these new faces.

SpurNation

10-19-2009, 07:54 PM

Here's what I want

starters:
PG Parker
SG Mason
SF Jefferson
PF Duncan
C Blair

subs:
PG - Hill
SG - Manu
SF - Finley
PF - McDyess
C - Ratliff

Hairston & Mahinmi playing here and there
Bonner guarding the Gatorade

Other than the "guarding the gatorade" quote...I like to see this too if Blair proves to be a total compliment to Timmy's game. Which I think he would and Blair benefitting as well from the attention given to Duncan during that time.

This "who's listed as center" thing is blown way out of proportion. It doesn't matter what Timmy or his post counterpart is listed as. They will play their roles on the court according to the plan... not their title.

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 08:11 PM

Which summer league was he bad in? He dunked on Yao and stuffed Tayshaun Prince last year.

I'm guessing cuz you posted this at 130 am it's ok, but you know preseason is when the actual NBA players play, right? SL is for all the unproven players. And I'm talking about the SL right after he was drafted. He rocked in SL this year.

#2!

10-19-2009, 08:20 PM

Does anybody know if our strategy on defense will be 1.) Funnel everyone to baseline or paint for the bigs to take care of them, or 2.) Pack the painted area and rely on the frontcourt to defend well on the perimeter?

The Truth #6

10-19-2009, 08:35 PM

I agree Bonner cannot be our 2nd best big if we want another title this year. However, I doubt McDyess isn't up for the challenge. He absolutely wants to fulfill a big role on a title team. That leaves Bonner and Blair to clean up the rest of the minutes.

We're going to need offense from him throughout the season because he's gonna be the only guy they can sag off of sometimes. Eventually he should come off the bench but still filling his time with good things.

Bonner had a pretty good regular season last year. I guess you could call it fool's gold, but I'd rather not bring up last playoffs because its pointless. You don't need Bonner scoring points for you except off wide open shots come playoff time or you aren't doing shit anyway.

The big man situation is not exactly stacked. We could get some really fine production some nights, while others we're going to be relying on Bonner to nail shots and play D (which is the most underrated aspect of his game).

And Bonner starting if logical because he knows the sets and he knows the system. He's actually one of the returners and he's got some experience. Even if he isn't a huge contributor on the floor, he's definitely doing good things in practice for all these new faces.

I'll respond in general by saying: we've reduced our expectations for Bonner so much that whatever positive he gives us we've been desensitized to somehow praise it. Outside of basketball, I think one might call this a "cycle of abuse". Kidding. But only a little.

I don't see how its pointless to mention the playoffs (when the games actually DO count) but praise him for his regular season accomplishments - which I already suggested were overhyped. Let's assume he actually did do well in the regular season (and then had one of the lowest PERs of anyone in the playoffs), is that not a perfect definition of 'fool's gold'?

I can see how it makes sense to start him in the beginning while others get used to the system. I would say this: start Dice early and let him get acclimated as soon as possible while everyone else is getting settled. It will be chaos for everyone, but better early than later. I never want to see Bonner and Duncan on the floor together. Why? Because if Bonner is with Duncan that means Bonner is in with the best opposing post players, and that means that Tim, once again, is having to do all the heavy lfiting and wearing down his body while Bonner hides out on the the 3 point line. I can see how this opens up the middle for Tony, but I'd prefer for Tim to actually have help while out on the court, not just in the number of minutes he plays. That, to me, is the most important reason we went out and got Dice and Blair.

Anyway, I realize I'm taking a hard stance, partly for fun, but I look at Bonner only as a transitional piece to help the other players and then step aside for 10th man duty.

ElNono

10-19-2009, 08:41 PM

I can see how it makes sense to start him in the beginning while others get used to the system. I would say this: start Dice early and let him get acclimated as soon as possible while everyone else is getting settled. It will be chaos for everyone, but better early than later. I never want to see Bonner and Duncan on the floor together. Why? Because if Bonner is with Duncan that means Bonner is in with the best opposing post players, and that means that Tim, once again, is having to do all the heavy lfiting and wearing down his body while Bonner hides out on the the 3 point line. I can see how this opens up the middle for Tony, but I'd prefer for Tim to actually have help while out on the court, not just in the number of minutes he plays. That, to me, is the most important reason we went out and got Dice and Blair.

+1

I don't care at all whatsoever about Bonner's offense.
Manu is back and we added another proven scorer in RJ. We have offense.
What we need is to get back into being a top defensive team, and also helping Duncan and Manu as much as possible to remain fresh.
That means less small ball, and more bigs that have a presence and that can rebound the ball. Be it Mahinmi, Blair, or whoever...

Manufan909

10-19-2009, 08:46 PM

I never want to see Bonner and Duncan on the floor together. Why? Because if Bonner is with Duncan that means Bonner is in with the best opposing post players, and that means that Tim, once again, is having to do all the heavy lfiting and wearing down his body while Bonner hides out on the the 3 point line.

If Duncan is on the floor, then the order of bigs playing with him should be

1) Dice
2) Ian or Theo
3) Blair
4) Theo or Ian
5) Bonner
6) Haislip

He needs a center that will be able to defend the paint alongside him, as well as board.

quentin_compson

10-20-2009, 02:59 AM

I agree with zOsa that Bonner could see some quality playing time at the beginning of the season while Dice and (to a lesser extent) Ratliff get comfortable with the system.

But after some time, Dice has to be the starting Big alongside Timmy. Ratliff probably will be a situational player, especially during the RS. Blair will get his minutes, if he continues to rebound the way he did in the pre-season - and if he doesn't stink on the defensive end. And I really hope Ian at least provides some additional shot-blocking presence.

Mason Jr. should definitely be starting with Manu coming off the bench. Finley is a veteran and knows the system, so his game shouldn't suffer too much from him getting fewer minutes.

Obstructed_View

10-20-2009, 07:39 PM

I'm guessing cuz you posted this at 130 am it's ok, but you know preseason is when the actual NBA players play, right? SL is for all the unproven players. And I'm talking about the SL right after he was drafted. He rocked in SL this year.

:lol Yes you got me. Completely airballed on that for some reason. His play in preseason that year made me forget anything he did wrong in summer league. :)

VI_Massive

10-20-2009, 10:58 PM

Manufan909

10-20-2009, 11:02 PM

:lol Yes you got me. Completely airballed on that for some reason. His play in preseason that year made me forget anything he did wrong in summer league. :)

No biggie.

And to VI, I don't think Tony will ever get a day off, unless he's hurt. He's still on the good side of 30, he could just go half on the PG minutes with Hill some games.:hat

senorglory

10-20-2009, 11:05 PM

I'm pretty much ready for Bonner to start over Duncan and Parker; not in succession or alternately, but at the same time, with Bonner playing both positions simultaneous, and taking the court with only 3 other Spurs, to be selected at random-- not so much because of my admiration for the Red Rocket, but from my frustration with those on this board that do one or both of two things: 1) attack Bonner/Vaughn/Finley/Barry/etc. to no end, and beyond rationality; 2) praise Mensa Bonsu/Mahinmi/Udoka/etc. to no end, and beyond rationality. It's weird, and it's irritating. Cut it out.

Mel_13

10-20-2009, 11:05 PM

I agree with the posters before me who have said Finley will likely start at SG with RJ at the 3. It will cause apoplecticness of all sorts around ST, but I think it will happen.

As far as Bonner vs. McDyess starting, I could see it going either way. Bonner is more experienced in the system and McDyess is coming along but McDyess is a respected veteran who deserves the respect of a starting role. Even if Bonner starts at the beginning of the season, by later in the season when Dice is more acclimated I think he will be starting.

I also be a few different types of lineups. There will be the "TP gets a day off" lineup and the "Duncan gets a day off line up" and the "All the big 3 get a day off" lineup (especially on back to backs). I think Pop will also look upon those situations as coveted opportunities to give new guys (new to the SA system or just completely new) lots of time.

McDyess is a respected veteran who came here to have the best chance at the one thing he has not accomplished- an NBA championship. He came off the bench much more often than he started during his five years in Detroit and was successful in both roles. I'm quite sure he will have no problem coming off the bench if it improves the teams' chances of winning. I'm also sure he'll be on the court to close out games and that's what really matters.