Classic arguments: Duncan vs KG...

[Duff McCartney]

I'm having a semi-heated discussion with somebody. Our discussion is about Tim Duncan vs Kevin Garnett.

My stance is when it's all said and Tim Duncan will be the better player in the end.

Reasons for this...

More titles
More playoff series wins
Can actually carry his team past the first round

His stance, KG is the better player

Reasons for this..

Better defender
If KG was on the Spurs they'd have won more than two titles.

I contend that if Duncan was on the Wolves right now, they'd be no lower than the 5th seed in the playoffs. He disagrees.

Discuss.

[Spurminator]

One word:

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/5853/kglotto9xk.jpg

[tekdragon]

Again?

TD>KG

To me, the skills/number cancel each other out.

In the case of a tie, rings always win.

If you need another tiebreaker, though, how about locker-room presence/leadership abilities. If a team always takes on the character of it's best player/leader, what does that say about KG, and what does that say about Duncan?

Duncan wins.

Discussion over.

(at least until the next one)

[samikeyp]

Better defender
Duncan has been on 6 all-defensive teams, KG 5.

[Obstructed_View]

How can anyone argue that KG has gotten anything other than inconsequential numbers this year? If your numbers don't equate to wins, what makes that great? Garnett can't even show up to win a crucial game against Atlanta. Duncan scores when he needs to, this year more than ever. People argue that somehow KG is more passionate than Duncan, when actually he's just more overt and demonstrative. Again, gaudy numbers don't a great player make IMO.

Saying "if KG were on the Spurs" is sort of pointless since most people were calling Minnesota the most talented team in the league at the beginning of the year.

[timvp]

I don't even think SickDSM can defend KG after the year he's had this season.

[sungo99]

How can anyone argue that KG has gotten anything other than inconsequential numbers this year? If your numbers don't equate to wins, what makes that great? Garnett can't even show up to win a crucial game against Atlanta.

Saying "if KG were on the Spurs" is sort of pointless since most people were calling Minnesota the most talented team in the league at the beginning of the year.

This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read on this board. Which is saying a lot.

You say Garnett didn't show up vs. ATL. So 31 points (on 14 FGA), 12 REB, 7 Assists, 1 STL, 1 BLK and 1 TO is "not showing up?"

And whoever was calling Minnesota "the most talented team" is an idiot. Excluding Garnett, Minnesota doesn't have one single player that would start for the Spurs.

[Sec24Row7]

KG is a 7 foot Jump shooter that can create off the dribble...

He doesn't make defenses work like TD does.

[Obstructed_View]

This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read on this board. Which is saying a lot.

You say Garnett didn't show up vs. ATL. So 31 points (on 14 FGA), 12 REB, 7 Assists, 1 STL, 1 BLK and 1 TO is "not showing up?"

And whoever was calling Minnesota "the most talented team" is an idiot. Excluding Garnett, Minnesota doesn't have one single player that would start for the Spurs.
First off, grow up. This is a discussion about sports, and you aren't the only one with observations. You take this way too seriously.

Who won the Atlanta game? Go get your dictionary and look up "inconsequential" and "gaudy". I never said KG wasn't producing stats, I'm just saying that if they don't translate to wins, he ain't the MVP, and he certainly isn't better than Duncan.

I didn't call Minnesota the most talented team, but the ESPN guys did at the beginning of the year. I never mentioned that I didn't agree with the observation, but your calling them idiots with the benefit of hindsight is a little silly.

[Frenchise player]

No more excuses can be made for Garnett. He had enough talent around him this year to at least make the WCF and he won't even be in the playoffs:
Hudson and Cassel seemed like a deadly combo at point guard, Wally can be one of the best shooter around the league, Spreewel has enough left to be a 3rd offensive weapon and the role players have more than average talent (Griffin, Hoiberg, Olowokandi...)

Truth is Minesota fucked its season because Garnett did not lead the team.
He let Cassel and Spreewell suck all the season and he started complaining about his teamates just like Kobe did.
This guy played with a lot of good players and he never seemed able to win a title, he never proved that he was able to be the leader of a championship team.
Duncan and him are just not in the same level.

[Spurminator]

ALmost every Hall of Fame player in the history of the NBA has had one or two seasons where his team posted an underwhelming record and missed the post season.

Of course, Tim Duncan is one of those that has not. So if we're comparing the two...

[samikeyp]

KG is a 7 foot Jump shooter that can create off the dribble...

He doesn't make defenses work like TD does.

agreed. that is why I have always said that KG is the better athlete, but TD is the better basketball player.

[spursfan05]

what argument? hes not even in the playoffs !!

[haiku guru]

Duncan owns Garnett
Let's count up the rings, shall we?
Start with Tim: One...Two...

If the count ends there
Then the arguement ends there
TD owns KG

Rings don't always win
But with players so well matched
It breaks the tie well.

[samikeyp]

oh yeah...then there is that playoff thing. :lol

We have heard from a lot of Wolves fans that Garnett by himself could get Minny to the playoffs (since the one and dones all those years) but last year was supposed to be the turning point. Looks like they turned the wrong way.

[whottt]

I used to defend KG even though I didn't really like him...but this season is pretty much is indefensible.

First of all, I don't judge him by his 1st round failures...he hasn't had teams anywhere near as good as Duncan in the playoffs...and he didn't have David Robnson to take the toughest defensive assignment as well as keep a defender at home.

The playoff argument is really lame though IMO, because if you have a one man team that fact will be exposed in the post season series where two teams get real familiar with each other...if you only have one dimension to your team, a good opponent will take that dimension away....Take Manu and Parker off this team and we are probably looking at a first round exit ourselves.

That rule does not apply to the regular season though....82 games without teams playing each other on a night to night basis...the defense played is much more traditional and less focused on stopping one man...

KG's inability to carry his team to the playoffs is a huge blackmark on his career....although Kareem, Hakeem and Wilt also have that same mark, the difference between KG and them though is that they never failed to make the playoffs with the core of a conference finalist...but it is what it is...you have a very talented team that is going to wind up in the lottery, and just like KG gets most of the credit for the wins...he gets most of the blame for the lottery trip.


KG's career had reminded me of David Robinson's up until this season...An incredibly versatile athlete capable of hauling weak teams to the playoffs every year with little more help than the athletes's ability to do everything....

But last season and this season have changed everything...he's not in Drob's league as a team carrier....

Statistically Garnett is a stud...but this season we see his stats don't always translate to wins...


Add to that the fact that a lot of Garnett's teamates seem to end up hating him...

Duncan is clearly the choice two make of these two comparably talented bigmen...if only for his ability to unite.

As for Duncan...Duncan still has a great team...

But I think he could have gotten KG's team to the playoffs this year...





I will say one thing about KG though...I see an attempt by many to gloss him as soft or not a true bigman...

Well he may not have Duncan's ability to score on the block(and who in the hell does)...but he is a beast rebounder, and he is a strong perimeter player...better than Duncan and Robinson in the area of rebounding IMO...and that's a key area for a bigman.

If I have to choose between the two I take Duncan of course...I am not convinced he is more talented than KG, is harder, or has more heart,...but he is definitely a better franchise player and leader.

[samikeyp]

Duff...here are some numbers for your buddy....

KG-20.3ppg, 11rpg, 1.7bpg, 4.5apg, 1.4spg 49%FG, 77%FT

TD-22.6ppg, 12rpg, 2.5bpg, 3.1apg, .79spg, 51%FG, 69%FT


Its close but Duncan wins.

[samikeyp]

I would agree with Whottt....KG is a lot of things, but soft is not one of them, IMO.

[JsnSA]

I would have to say TD mainly because I am a Spurs fan...and though I like his fiery attitude on the court(usually)...there is also a lot about KGs personality I don NOT like (hitting his own teamates and such...and some of the shit talking I have heard he does is innapropriate..such as what he supposedly said to Tim after his Dads death).

That being said....I wouldn't take the Wolves losses this year as a sign of KG being a bad player.

That dude has put up some rediculous numbers this year.

I am very perplexed how they keep losing because even in the bad losses..if you look at the box scores...KG almost always has really great stats.

Its just a chemistry thing I guess. Which of course adds more points to Duncan than KG because I think TD is much better for team chemistry than KG is.

[ducks]

I would trade big dog + barry and filler for kg

[boutons]

"I would trade"

Isn't KG making $30M or something this year?

[sungo99]

"I would trade"

Isn't KG making $30M or something this year?

$16 million. At the end of his last contract he took a paycut.

[TDfan2007]

Duncan > Garnett

Duncan wins more, and more than any other player in the league, he can greatly impact a game and lead his team to a win without scoring 20+ points.

Let's brake it down:


Offense:
Tim: Tim is by far the better low post player, he draws more double teams, is stronger, and turns the ball over less than Garnett. He also has a better FG %.

Garnett: KG has a much better perimeter game, but that takes away from his teammates from getting involved. I'm not going to say that Garnett is a better passer because although he may get more assists, the T'Wolves draw up the plays so he can make those passes. When Tim gets doubled, usually he will kick it out to someone who will then dish to the open player.

Defense:
Tim: Tim is the better shot blocker, and has been on the All-Defensive team 6 times. Tim plays the pick and roll better than most big men; he pressures the player who comes off the screen to impede the player's progress, then he quickly goes back to his own man. If you guys didn't notice, while Tim was gone our pick and roll defense sucked.

Garnett: KG is better at stealing the ball, but not when it comes to help defense. He has 5 All-Defenseive selections.

Intangibles:
Tim: well this category isn't even close. Tim draws the double teams which allows his teammates to involve themselves in the game more. Tim is a winner. He has 2 championship rings and has lead his team to the best record in the league 2 seasons in the Shaq & Kobe era. He truly is the heart & soul of the Spurs.

Garnett: Well, 7 straight 1st round exits until he finally got to the WCF, but now his team won't even have to worry about another 1st round exit as they won't even make the playoffs.

It's pretty close, but Duncan wins through better D and the intangibles.

[Willinsa]

Let's see about KG

0 rings + 2 playoff series wins in 9 years = KG Sucks

[TDfan2007]

^^^^^^^^^

I would like to know what he said too. I saw a flashback clip of Duncan and Garnett jawing at each other on Telemundo last year but I couldn't understand what the hell the announcers were saying.

[Obstructed_View]

Not a clue. I'm having lots of fun stomping on KG when he's down but I've never heard of him doing anything classless like that. He may have made Rasho cry but I thought it was just by berating him.

[Rummpd]

Tired of this arguement. Both great great players but Duncan by far having better career as end of day winning is what is is all about. End of discussion, unless Garnett late bloomer.

[TDMVPDPOY]

^^^ lol

its clearly simple, put duncan on any team and they are a contender.

[sickdsm]

Carreer stats are meaningless, KG wasn't developed when he came out of HS. I love how everyone points out to Wally, Sam, Troy, Spree, etc.....


Name me one other player that's a tough defender. Hassell hasn't played like he did last year.

Obvioulsy no one watched KG hobble on his knee this year. I admit, i was one of those bitching about Webber after his surgury but now EVERYONE realizes that his knee was bothering him. Same story. Guys try to play hurt and there rediculed. Tim doesn't play hurt, and that works for his team. Remember the same people that said the spurs minus tim is a lottery team? Laughable. Spurs minus tim AND pop are a lottery team. What would tim do on the wolves? He'd struggle defensively that's for sure bc he's not mobile enough for the zone. He wouldn't get the ball down on the block as much. He wouldn't get his FTA's. He certainly wouldn't get his rebounds as he does since the wolves have always shot both FG's and FTA's well. Remember, it WAS Tim who failed at the olympics with his fellow MVP-worthy PG AI. So we have the best coach in the game, the "best" PF in the game, one of the top two PG's in the game, the best 2 guard in the game, the best SF in the game (lebron) and Tim writes history that can never be broken?


Funny how the arguments about a real leader and great player can carry the team don't carry over to this eye-popping display of talent at the olympics. He didn't have a shooter, right? 'Cuz of course that's more important than someone else that gives a damn about defense. 3 pt shooting teams have long won the NBA and Olympic titles, right?

The dude has one year where his team fails. It ALSO happans to be the same year where these OLD players (that everyone thought was washed up already before last year) bitch about contracts, KG play all year long with a bum knee AND Sam is in and out of the lineup with reoccuring hamstring problems.

Do any of you sherlocks wonder why they are playing well once Sam is healthy and a decent option at PG exists?

[Useruser666]

Um, Tim failed at the Olympics, KG failed by sitting at home. The only history KG can break is the one where he wins a ring. Otherwise KG=Barkley.

Here is something to chew on.

http://www.82games.com/comm14.htm



Garbage Time Player Stats
We all know that there are times when an NBA game seems to be over even though there may be more than a few minutes left on the clock. Garbage Time is upon us, and for most coaches it's an opportunity to trot out the tail end of the twelve man roster and divvy up some minutes to the lesser players who battle hard during practice. It's also frequently a time for rookies to get an extended stretch of playing time.

Of course, when the outcome of a game is for all intents and purposes finalized, there's a good chance that the play becomes in some cases a matter of padding one's stats. Do players look to post a few extra numbers on the stat sheet when the defenses are relaxed and the opposition may be going through the motions?

We elected to use the following definition of "garbage time" moments: 4th quarter and overtime where either team has a lead of 10 points plus one point for each minute remaining. It's easier to see this in table form --

http://img220.echo.cx/img220/8679/garbagestats18uj.jpg

It could be argued certainly that these thresholds are wrong, that teams have indeed clawed their way back from being 15 points down with six minutes to go. We're pretty comfortable thinking this is a reasonable definition when you consider that if the game tightens up it will no longer be judged as garbage time (and the starters are all rushed back into the game!)

The table below shows various accumulated stats for the current 2003-04 season, under our garbage time filter. We created a "Stats Padding" number that is Points + Rebounds + Assists + Blocks + Steals.

http://img147.echo.cx/img147/5103/garbagestats22zz.jpg

Now, we don't intend for these numbers to be used to denigrate players, after all there's nothing wrong with doing well in minutes that are "less than crucial" and we respect players who still play hard and give the fans their money's worth after the game is out of reach. So before you start trash talking about how Garnett is stockpiling numbers for his MVP claims, you would be wise to remember that he puts up similar levels of productivity throughout the full 48 minutes!

On the other hand, this may be a useful tool for evaluating some of the bench players -- break out their stats into "garbage time" and non-garbage time categories and then judge them by the performance in the minutes that really mattered.

Taking a similar troll through the garbage moments of the 2002-03 season comes in with the following top twenty "G-Men"

http://img140.echo.cx/img140/7223/garbagestats34vc.jpg

We have tons of respect for players numbered 1, 5, and 7 on this list for starters, so we don't take it as a slam on any of them that they show up as benefitting from some extra minutes that were far from crunch time. If anything, the guys padding their numbers a bit are the ones chasing the scoring title -- if you sort the numbers by field goals attempted per minute, the top three players are Bryant, McGrady, and Pierce!

Ah, but the heart of the question and the inspiration for this effort came from our friend Charlie B. who clearly has an ulterior motive in wanting to compare Garnett and Duncan's numbers since they were two of the main names in the MVP chase last year:


http://img22.echo.cx/img22/8086/garbagestats46hj.jpg

[TDfan2007]

hey sickdsm, if Garnett was so banged up then why has he played every single game this season? :rolleyes

And anyone who said that Tim hasn't played hurt this season knows nothing. Ever since that first ankle injury, his mobility has been noticably limited, and after this latest (and worst) ankle injury Tim won't be the same. Not to mention the fact that Tim has played basketball for 2 years non-stop.

[sickdsm]

User: Welcome to last year. That's been brought up and debated over already. Unlike the spurs the wolves absolutely crumble when KG is not in the game. That's why you see KG's minutes always up there. Watch a game or two before you pretend to know, ok? One would think it would be logical to EVERYONE that since the spurs are a top notch defensive squad that the entire team would be keen at holding leads and stopping runs. The wolves aren't so good at that so Flip always tried to keep KG in as long as possible. Same situation with LeBron. You think he's averaging 42.2 MPG bc he's stat padding? In case you forgot though, this part tells the entire story.

So before you start trash talking about how Garnett is stockpiling numbers for his MVP claims, you would be wise to remember that he puts up similar levels of productivity throughout the full 48 minutes!

TDfan: Maybe you don't know how dedicated KG is. He LITERALLY (reminds me of that MadTV skit) would take a bullet to save the game of basketball. You want to get rid of Bin Laden? Tell KG he's trying to keep basketball down. He would go out there with a broken leg. I know in the games i've seen duncan play this year he didn't consistantly have a leg buckle underneath him on rebounds. Most players would have come out of the game at those points. Not Kev, he stayed in there so he could hear losers like you detract from his game.

[sickdsm]

LOL, User maybe you forgot but MOST nba stars find it unappealing to go to the Olympics after winning there ring.

[Dre_7]

LOL, User maybe you forgot but MOST nba stars find it unappealing to go to the Olympics after winning there ring.

What ring?