Do you believe in god?

[AussieFanKurt]

Well do you?
Sorry if this has been done

[FromWayDowntown]

Yes.

[SouthernFried]

Nah, this has never been done before.

[101A]

Yes.

[baseline bum]

No

[I. Hustle]

I was wondering when someone was going to do one of these threads. I've been here for a while and have yet to see one. Kudos to you. I doubt this will take a bad turn.

[DarrinS]

Nah, atoms and molecules just randomly got together to form humans. Good enough for me and Bill Maher.

[baseline bum]

Nah, atoms and molecules just randomly got together to form humans. Good enough for me and Bill Maher.

Nah, the god we created in our own image (complete with all of our jealousy and anger issues) just randomly got together to form itself.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Nah, the god we created in our own image (complete with all of our jealousy and anger issues) just randomly got together to form itself.

Well he couldn't have created gay people...

[DarrinS]

Nah, the god we created in our own image (complete with all of our jealousy and anger issues) just randomly got together to form itself.


That's not my concept of God. I don't think there's a human-like figure looking down on us.


I also do not believe in the devil.

[baseline bum]

That's not my concept of God. I don't think there's a human-like figure looking down on us.


I also do not believe in the devil.

What exactly do you believe in?

[DarrinS]

Here's an interesting question:


Is there such thing as the concepts of good and evil if there were no human beings?

[boutons_deux]

What a refreshing, original topic.

[DarrinS]

What exactly do you believe in?


There are too many things that point to there being an intelligence behind the design of things, IMO.

[DarrinS]

What a refreshing, original topic.


As opposed to your lame ass rants.

[LnGrrrR]

I was wondering when someone was going to do one of these threads. I've been here for a while and have yet to see one. Kudos to you. I doubt this will take a bad turn.

:lol

No, I don't, by the way.

[LnGrrrR]

Here's an interesting question:


Is there such thing as the concepts of good and evil if there were no human beings?

Nope. Good and evil only exists when there is the ability to recognize what is good and what is evil; morality, conscience, whatever you call it.

[boutons_deux]

"As opposed to your lame ass rants."

aka, Boutons BIG ASS BITCH SLAPPINGS of red-state, ignorant, ideological, radical, check-box bubbas.

[LnGrrrR]

As an aside, I think the Jewish religion is the most coherent. I perfectly understand a God who signs a "contract" with his people, and as long as they obey the contract, he'll look out for them. The God of the OT also shows much more negative emotions, such as rage and jealousy.

I think the Triune God is much more a step of faith than a singular God himself.

[101A]

"As opposed to your lame ass rants."

aka, Boutons BIG ASS BITCH SLAPPINGS of red-state, ignorant, ideological, radical, check-box bubbas.


You have a big ass?

I always pictured you as a scrawny dude.

[DarrinS]

Nope. Good and evil only exists when there is the ability to recognize what is good and what is evil; morality, conscience, whatever you call it.


Right. So I don't believe in God in the context of, say, the Bible and the ten commandments. I believe God is the intelligent designer, power, force, etc. that makes life possible. Probably sounds lame, but that's what I believe.

[LnGrrrR]

Right. So I don't believe in God in the context of, say, the Bible and the ten commandments. I believe God is the intelligent designer, power, force, etc. that makes life possible. Probably sounds lame, but that's what I believe.

Doesn't sound lame to me. That's relatively logically consistent, at least, much more than the usual God.

I don't have faith in anything, but I consider myself somewhat spiritual. I just don't assign my spirituality to any specific being/concept. If I did, it'd most likely take this sort of form.

Check out "scientific pantheism" sometime Darrin.

[MB20]

I believe in a superior being ( God / Allah / whatever you want to call Him)
But I don´t believe in priests/church.
I believe in a person like Mother Theresa more than I believe in a Pope.

[spursncowboys]

Well he couldn't have created gay people...
The ability to choose your sexuality was created by god.

[ElNono]

http://www.wired.com/images/article/full/2007/07/iphoneworship.jpg

[spursncowboys]

Nope. Good and evil only exists when there is the ability to recognize what is good and what is evil; morality, conscience, whatever you call it.
So you are saying something has to be seen and labeled for it to exist?
I disagree.

[LnGrrrR]

So you are saying something has to be seen and labeled for it to exist?
I disagree.

Huh? That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that, as far as we know, only humans know how to make a distinction between what is 'good' and what is 'evil'. Animals aren't good or evil; they just do what they do. You can't call their actions evil or good because they don't have the mental capability to determine the difference.

[baseline bum]

Doesn't sound lame to me. That's relatively logically consistent, at least, much more than the usual God.

I don't have faith in anything, but I consider myself somewhat spiritual. I just don't assign my spirituality to any specific being/concept. If I did, it'd most likely take this sort of form.

Check out "scientific pantheism" sometime Darrin.

I don't get it; so do you believe in the supernatural, or not? If not, then what exactly is spiritualism?

[LnGrrrR]

I don't get it; so do you believe in the supernatural, or not? If not, then what exactly is spiritualism?

I don't believe in a true "spirit" or the supernatural; however, I often get a sense of wonder when contemplating life, the comsos, etc etc, that is often considered "spiritual" in a sense. I guess I just don't have a better word for it, to be honest.

I am humbled, amazed, and uplifted by this world and the people in it at many times.

[BacktoBasics]

Shouldn't the question really be

Do you have a belief in some form of modern day religion?

"God" is too vague. Especially considering that 99.999% of all beliefs that are God related are directly tied to a religious belief structure.

[101A]

Shouldn't the question really be

Do you have a belief in some form of modern day religion?

"God" is too vague. Especially considering that 99.999% of all beliefs that are God related are directly tied to a religious belief structure.

That's what the "New Thread" button is for.

[hope4dopes]

I don't get it; so do you believe in the supernatural, or not? If not, then what exactly is spiritualism?Supernatural is term we use to label things we don't yet understand.

[atxrocker]

what an innovative topic!

[LnGrrrR]

Supernatural is term we use to label things we don't yet understand.

I'd say that's a poor definition. That quote would entail that everything labeled as supernatural is actually real, just not yet understood. Plainly though, everything supernatural isn't real.

[sonic21]

there's just too much hypocrisy involved in organized religion and the perpetration of acts "in the name of god" for me to take any of it seriously....

I don't believe in God. But i will never say God doesn't exist, i mean how could anybody know for sure?

[DarrinS]

there's just too much hypocrisy involved in organized religion and the perpetration of acts "in the name of god" for me to take any of it seriously....

I don't believe in God. But i will never say God doesn't exist, i mean how could anybody know for sure?


Then you are really agnostic, not an athiest.

[LnGrrrR]

Then you are really agnostic, not an athiest.

Agnostic = Without knowledge
Atheist = Without belief

Sonic21 is an agnostic atheist, as am I.

[MiamiHeat]

Yes, I do.

[clambake]

well....bush got his direction from god.

[MiamiHeat]

Huh? That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that, as far as we know, only humans know how to make a distinction between what is 'good' and what is 'evil'. Animals aren't good or evil; they just do what they do. You can't call their actions evil or good because they don't have the mental capability to determine the difference.

What if there is no such thing as Good and Evil and they are just human inventions to create more successful living conditions ?

[rjv]

why is this in the political forum ?

[MiamiHeat]

why is this in the political forum ?

Political Forum (45 Viewing)
Post about politics, news, government, religion and business.

[doobs]

As much as I dislike most organized religion, I would never let the stupidity of man affect my belief in God.

Believing in the non-existence of God is no more rational than believing in the existence of God. Belief in God can always be reconciled with science. (I'm talking about the narrow issue of whether or not God exists; God's nonexistence cannot be proven.)

I guess believing in a Supreme Being makes life seem more meaningful or ordered. It's comforting. I can admit that.

[MiamiHeat]

Believing in the non-existence of God is no more rational than believing in the existence of God.

You haven't really thought this through



I guess believing in a Supreme Being makes life seem more meaningful or ordered. It's comforting. I can admit that.

You are missing out on life.

[ElNono]

Belief in God can always be reconciled with science. (I'm talking about the narrow issue of whether or not God exists; God's nonexistence cannot be proven.)

You don't know much about science, or the scientific method, do you?

[LnGrrrR]

What if there is no such thing as Good and Evil and they are just human inventions to create more successful living conditions ?

If humans invented them, then they exist. Maybe you'd care to reword this question?

[LnGrrrR]

Believing in the non-existence of God is no more rational than believing in the existence of God. Belief in God can always be reconciled with science. (I'm talking about the narrow issue of whether or not God exists; God's nonexistence cannot be proven.)

Ah... so believing in my Flying Spaghetti Monster is as rational as not believing in him? :)

[doobs]

You don't know much about science, or the scientific method, do you?

Go ahead, then, tell me how the existence of God can be disproven.

[LnGrrrR]

Go ahead, then, tell me how the existence of God can be disproven.

Just because God can't be disproven doesn't necessarily mean that it is equally rational to believe in him or not believe in him.

[ElNono]

Go ahead, then, tell me how the existence of God can be disproven.

Only after you explain your proposition that belief in God can be reconciled with science...

[fyatuk]

Depends on your definition of god, but by my definition, then yes.

I do not believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic god that most people mean when they ask "Do you believe in god."

[doobs]

Ah... so believing in my Flying Spaghetti Monster is as rational as not believing in him? :)

Again, I'm just talking about the narrow issue of existence. Once you start telling stories about who God is and what he thinks or does or whether it's a Flying Spaghetti Monster, then you start losing me. Religious texts like the Bible, IMO, basically filled in the blanks about morality and nature for God-fearing people, and were far more useful when people were less enlightened.

But is the universe the creation of a Supreme Being? I see no real difference between believing the answer is yes or no.

[doobs]

Only after you explain your proposition that belief in God can be reconciled with science...

Because God's existence can't be disproven by science. Now we're going in circles because you can't comprehend that simple point.

[doobs]

Just because God can't be disproven doesn't necessarily mean that it is equally rational to believe in him or not believe in him.

But his non-existence can't be proven, either. To believe that he does not exist is a belief.

[spurster]

Why is it important to God that I believe in God? Whether God exists or not does not depend on what I believe. A God with self-esteem issues or in some way needs my validation (or else!) is not much of a God in my view.

[LnGrrrR]

But his non-existence can't be proven, either. To believe that he does not exist is a belief.

Eh, now we're playing with the term 'belief'.

Do you have a 'belief' that I don't have three heads? Technically, yes. But it's not the same 'belief' that people talk about regarding their faith system.

[MiamiHeat]

If humans invented them, then they exist. Maybe you'd care to reword this question?

No, they don't exist.

If I invent an idea that I have super powers and I can fly and lift 3000 lbs, does it mean those super powers exist?

ideas are just that. they don't really exist, we made them up.

don't play semantics

[LnGrrrR]

But is the universe the creation of a Supreme Being? I see no real difference between believing the answer is yes or no.

Other than applying Occam's razor, then there is no big difference, I agree.

[LnGrrrR]

No, they don't exist.

If I invent an idea that I have super powers and I can fly and lift 3000 lbs, does it mean those super powers exist?

ideas are just that. they don't really exist, we made them up.

don't play semantics

No, but the IDEA of superpowers exist, obviously. Superpowers are tangible, so they can be disproven. But good and evil obviously exist as ideas/feelings, as does pain, hunger, etc.

The difference between pain/hunger/other basic feelings is that, to understand good and evil, you have to have some sort of morality. Without such knowledge, your actions are not good or evil; they just are.

[ElNono]

Because God's existence can't be disproven by science. Now we're going in circles because you can't comprehend that simple point.

I can't disprove you're an idiot. Thus you must be.

See where the logical fallacy is in your argument?

[LnGrrrR]

MiamiHeat, perhaps you meant to ask if there was a UNIVERSAL good or evil?

[LnGrrrR]

I can't disprove you're an idiot. Thus you must be.

See where the logical fallacy is in your argument?

To be fair, Elnono, his argument goes that since you can't prove he's not an idiot, then it's perfectly rational to assume he is an idiot, or he isn't an idiot, and it makes no difference between the two. :lol

[BacktoBasics]

I can't disprove you're an idiot. Thus you must be.

See where the logical fallacy is in your argument?
He has a point. It can't be disproven by science. Not now. This goes back to the argument being religion related over "God" related. I don't think religion has a leg to stand on. Can't say the same for a higher power....just too vague as to what that could potentially mean.

[ElNono]

He has a point.

He doesn't.


It can't be disproven by science. Not now.

See, now you're on to something...

[SnakeBoy]

As much as I dislike most organized religion, I would never let the stupidity of man affect my belief in God.

Believing in the non-existence of God is no more rational than believing in the existence of God. Belief in God can always be reconciled with science. (I'm talking about the narrow issue of whether or not God exists; God's nonexistence cannot be proven.)

I guess believing in a Supreme Being makes life seem more meaningful or ordered. It's comforting. I can admit that.

Most of my life I was agnostic although I always felt the presence of God in my life. It wasn't until I grew older that I was really able to seperate the actions of man from my belief in God. When I talk to agnostic/athiests that I know they always point to the past actions of man/church as an argument against God but their really talking about the actions of man, they just can't make the seperation.

Now I attend catholic church every sunday and I do find the act of going to church and bowing down before a higher power to be comforting. It helps that the church I attend has a really good priest. A few weeks ago he gave a great sermon about the hypocrisy of the church and all of us. Some people looked pissed at having their priest calling them and the church hypocrites to their face but I quite enjoyed having him tell them the truth.

The only thing I disagree with you on is believe in God being reconciled with science. I think it's the opposite, believe in science can always be reconciled with the belief in God.

[ElNono]

Let me state that I actually have no problem with people that do believe in God. I'm actually glad that it's what works for them.

I think some people need to state (as some of you did) what do you believe God to be. There's all sorts of beliefs out there. From people that think an advanced alien race out there being the definition of God (or Gods), to the mystical, supernatural, spiritual, etc.

[ElNono]

(remove dupe post)

[rjv]

i have yet to read a single post in this thread that is not metaphysics.

[LnGrrrR]

i have yet to read a single post in this thread that is not metaphysics.

What were you expecting? :lol

[101A]

Living in a college town, by belief is God is reaffirmed all the time.

For instance: Yesterday I rode over to campus to pick my wife up. While waiting behind the science building for her, a young lady came out of the building sporting one of the latest fashion trends on campus: a mans dress shirt, no visible shorts or skirt; with a belt around the waist. I literally uttered "Oh my God" - completely reflexively, without thinking, a spontaneous prayer of thanks and praise to the wonderful creator who made such a site possible. I could tell some of the young gentlemen college students were uttering/thinking the same praise as they also bore witness.

Here's praying this joyous trend spreads to a community to you.

[rjv]

What were you expecting? :lol

pretty much what i have seen. and yet i can anticipate another 20 pages or so of it. :lol

[LnGrrrR]

Living in a college town, by belief is God is reaffirmed all the time.

For instance: Yesterday I rode over to campus to pick my wife up. While waiting behind the science building for her, a young lady came out of the building sporting one of the latest fashion trends on campus: a mans dress shirt, no visible shorts or skirt; with a belt around the waist. I literally uttered "Oh my God" - completely reflexively, without thinking, a spontaneous prayer of thanks and praise to the wonderful creator who made such a site possible. I could tell some of the young gentlemen college students were uttering/thinking the same praise as they also bore witness.

Here's praying this joyous trend spreads to a community to you.

:lol:toast

[rjv]

Living in a college town, by belief is God is reaffirmed all the time.

For instance: Yesterday I rode over to campus to pick my wife up. While waiting behind the science building for her, a young lady came out of the building sporting one of the latest fashion trends on campus: a mans dress shirt, no visible shorts or skirt; with a belt around the waist. I literally uttered "Oh my God" - completely reflexively, without thinking, a spontaneous prayer of thanks and praise to the wonderful creator who made such a site possible. I could tell some of the young gentlemen college students were uttering/thinking the same praise as they also bore witness.

Here's praying this joyous trend spreads to a community to you.

this argument is no good without pics.

[SnakeBoy]

i have yet to read a single post in this thread that is not metaphysics.

That's like complaining that all the posts in a thread about the financial system could be catergorized as posts about the economy. The op asked about belief in the general concept of God not specific religions therefore it shouldn't be a suprise to you that all the posts sound like metaphysics.

[rjv]

That's like complaining that all the posts in a thread about the financial system could be catergorized as posts about the economy. The op asked about belief in the general concept of God not specific religions therefore it shouldn't be a suprise to you that all the posts sound like metaphysics.

my point is that from a philosophical point of view, once a statment attempts to state anything that is not tautology then it becomes metaphysical in nature.

heck, even the statement "only statements that can be verified analytically or empirically are true" is metaphysical.

[LnGrrrR]

heck, even the statement "only statements that can be verified analytically or empirically are true" is metaphysical.

I prefer "This sentence is false." :lol

[rjv]

I prefer "This sentence is false." :lol


yeah-that's a classic.

[mouse]

the Jewish religion is the most coherent. I perfectly understand a God he'll look out for them.













Good looking out God! :tu

http://judicial-inc.biz/Pope_v18.gif

[mouse]

I attend catholic church every sunday

Out of boredom or guilt?



and I do find the act of going to church and bowing down before a higher power to be comforting.

Who, or where is this power, the priest?




It helps that the church I attend has a really good priest. A few weeks ago he gave a great sermon about the hypocrisy of the church and all of us.

Did he talk about his fellow child molesting priest, or did they get a pass on the "hypocrisy"?




Some people looked pissed at having their priest calling them and the church hypocrites to their face but I quite enjoyed having him tell them the truth.


So church is more of a town hall meeting then a true religious experience?

just for shits and giggles.....when was the last time you tried to save someone or witness to them?

[101A]

this argument is no good without pics.


Yeah, I get that.

However, as I said, I was waiting for MY WIFE. Had I been caught snapping said picture, I would have soon had a much more intimate relationship with the almighty.

[LnGrrrR]

Yeah, I get that.

However, as I said, I was waiting for MY WIFE. Had I been caught snapping said picture, I would have soon had a much more intimate relationship with the almighty.

101A is on fire today. Ladies and gentleman, tip your waitresses. :lol

[angel_luv]

Yes, I believe in God. I am a Christian. :)

[jman3000]

The Biblical God doesn't exist, but I'm open minded about there being some supreme being that started all this. It might not even know we exist, but seeing as though we can't comprehend everything, I'll remain skeptical yet open minded.

[sabar]

Good and evil exist without humans, there is just no one there to interpret them. Animals commit acts of altruism at the cost to their survival. Disease is able to inflict amounts of pain in large amounts to individuals and species just so a piece of DNA/RNA in a shell can replicate itself.

Now good and evil are usually tied in with sentience which gives disease and murder by everything non-human a free pass. But what if you remove this requirement? Clearly there are natural evils from the perspective of the sufferer. A forest fire kills a kitten's mother and the kitten starves to death. Another cat somewhere dies a slow death from feline aids. A cat kills another cat in a territorial dispute. From the cat perspective these are evils, though on the grand scale we see that they are population controls or natural earth processes. The cat that preys on the mouse may be comitting an evil against another species, but this is instinctive and they lack the sentience to have empathy. That is an evil from the mouse perspective regardless.

So when you take everything into account, what is left? I think there only exists relative good and evil to each individual or species (even if they may not recognize it). On larger scales there is no good and evil and everything that any species does is just a part of geological processes and in turn part of stellar processes that are clearly unable to have good or evil applied to them.

I am a spiritual skeptic. I find the amount of order in the universe perplexing when you consider that it is all doomed to nothing thanks to the second law of thermodynamics. Everything seems meaningless in the long run, so why does anything exist at all?

[angel_luv]

Yeah, I get that.

However, as I said, I was waiting for MY WIFE. Had I been caught snapping said picture, I would have soon had a much more intimate relationship with the almighty.

:lol :lol

You have a great sense of humor.

[rjv]

Good and evil exist without humans, there is just no one there to interpret them. Animals commit acts of altruism at the cost to their survival. Disease is able to inflict amounts of pain in large amounts to individuals and species just so a piece of DNA/RNA in a shell can replicate itself.

Now good and evil are usually tied in with sentience which gives disease and murder by everything non-human a free pass. But what if you remove this requirement? Clearly there are natural evils from the perspective of the sufferer. A forest fire kills a kitten's mother and the kitten starves to death. Another cat somewhere dies a slow death from feline aids. A cat kills another cat in a territorial dispute. From the cat perspective these are evils, though on the grand scale we see that they are population controls or natural earth processes. The cat that preys on the mouse may be comitting an evil against another species, but this is instinctive and they lack the sentience to have empathy. That is an evil from the mouse perspective regardless.

So when you take everything into account, what is left? I think there only exists relative good and evil to each individual or species (even if they may not recognize it). On larger scales there is no good and evil and everything that any species does is just a part of geological processes and in turn part of stellar processes that are clearly unable to have good or evil applied to them.

I am a spiritual skeptic. I find the amount of order in the universe perplexing when you consider that it is all doomed to nothing thanks to the second law of thermodynamics. Everything seems meaningless in the long run, so why does anything exist at all?


hume and newton sprinkled with a dash of sartre ??? get with the times!!!!

[LnGrrrR]

Now good and evil are usually tied in with sentience which gives disease and murder by everything non-human a free pass. But what if you remove this requirement? Clearly there are natural evils from the perspective of the sufferer. A forest fire kills a kitten's mother and the kitten starves to death. Another cat somewhere dies a slow death from feline aids. A cat kills another cat in a territorial dispute. From the cat perspective these are evils, though on the grand scale we see that they are population controls or natural earth processes. The cat that preys on the mouse may be comitting an evil against another species, but this is instinctive and they lack the sentience to have empathy. That is an evil from the mouse perspective regardless.

How do you know what a cat's perspective is? :)

Good and evil can not be processed without morality. If there is no one around with morality, then there can be no good and/or evil. There's just fortunate and unfortunate incidents.

It isn't "evil" for a cat to attack a mouse and eat it, or even play with it, beceause they don't have the ability to distinguish between wrong and right.



Everything seems meaningless in the long run, so why does anything exist at all?

Just because something is going to end doesn't make it meaningless. After all, movies end, right? Does that mean it's meaningless to watch one?

[MiamiHeat]

But good and evil obviously exist as ideas/feelings, as does pain, hunger, etc..

Nothing is really good or evil. For instance, murder is 'evil' in our societies.

However, there is nothing wrong with murder. Animals kill each other all the time. Cells absorb each other, bactria and virii infect and destroy each other on the cellular level every second of every day.

Killing another human being is not 'evil', it is just an act. We gave it meaning and think of it as an 'evil' thing because it hurts our success as a species/civilization.

This doesn't change the fact that good and evil are fabrications of the human mind, and do not exist. Therefore, no act is evil or good. They are just acts.

The IDEA of good and evil exists, just as the idea that there is a One Ring out in Mordor being protected by a dwarf guy, it doesn't make it real. It only exists in human minds. You cannot truthfully label ANYTHING as good and evil.

It's made up.

and pain and hunger are not the same as human ideas. They are chemical signals in your body that nobody can avoid. However, teach a child that eating cereal is "evil" and you will see that child grow up denouncing cereal as evil.

It's human fabrication.

[Xylus]

No, I don't believe in God.

[DarrinS]

I am a New York Jets fan; therefore, there is no God.

[DarrinS]

Armed Robber Finds God During Hold-Up (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Armed-Robber-Prays-After-Turning-To-God-During-Hold-Up-In-Indianapolis-Shopping-Centre/Article/200910315410291?f=rss)





An armed robber in America turned to God mid-robbery in what investigators are calling the strangest case they have ever seen.

Gregory Smith, 23, walked into a store in an Indianapolis shopping centre brandishing a gun.

But instead of raiding the place, he started hugging his tearful victim, Angela Montez, telling her he hated what he was doing but had no choice.

The pair began discussing God and before long Smith was on his knees in tears, praying and being hugged by her.

He eventually stole only her mobile phone and $20 (£12).

As Smith left the shop cameras got a clear shot of his face.

He then handed himself into police after his mother saw the footage on TV.

Sergeant Kevin Wethington from Indianapolis police said: "I've been a detective for three years and I've never seen anything like it."

[MiamiHeat]

lol what a sucker.

[SnakeBoy]

I am a New York Jets fan; therefore, there is no God.

I can see where that might make one question the existence of God.

[LnGrrrR]

This doesn't change the fact that good and evil are fabrications of the human mind, and do not exist. Therefore, no act is evil or good. They are just acts.

That's what I meant by universal good/evil. I also think there is no universal good/evil, although I thin that a great majority of socieies
have a common morality.

[LnGrrrR]

He eventually stole only her mobile phone and $20 (£12).

:lol

[byrontx]

Why does god have to be an all-powerful, perfect being? Maybe our god (the one responsible for this particular universe) was a well-intended f'up. She has moved on now and is trying it again.

[mouse]

snakeboy I was not trying to be sarcastic or a dick head I really would like you to answer at least one of my questions.

You thought only ChumpDumper can ask all the questions around here?

[z0sa]

What's beyond the edges of the universe?

[mouse]

What's beyond the edges of the universe?


A sign that reads "EXIT"

[Blake]

my point is that from a philosophical point of view, once a statment attempts to state anything that is not tautology then it becomes metaphysical in nature.

heck, even the statement "only statements that can be verified analytically or empirically are true" is metaphysical.

glad to see you round these parts, rjv......metaphysically speaking. :toast

[mouse]

I could tell you what I think about these topics but to have Blake calling me a lier 24/7 and to have Chump asking me to prove God knew about 9/11 kinda gets old.

Sadly there aren't many people these days in the politics forum where you can have intelligent debates with anymore.

But 90% of you know this already, it's the 10% that fuck it up for the rest of us.

For the 10% out there? I give you all the proof you need.................



































http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/eltoroloco6996/Proofthatgoddoesexist.png

[Blake]

Now good and evil are usually tied in with sentience which gives disease and murder by everything non-human a free pass. But what if you remove this requirement?

how is disease evil?

[Blake]

Nothing is really good or evil. For instance, murder is 'evil' in our societies.

However, there is nothing wrong with murder.

really?


Animals kill each other all the time. Cells absorb each other, bactria and virii infect and destroy each other on the cellular level every second of every day.

for survival reasons


Killing another human being is not 'evil', it is just an act. We gave it meaning and think of it as an 'evil' thing because it hurts our success as a species/civilization.

really?


This doesn't change the fact that good and evil are fabrications of the human mind, and do not exist. Therefore, no act is evil or good. They are just acts.

The IDEA of good and evil exists, just as the idea that there is a One Ring out in Mordor being protected by a dwarf guy, it doesn't make it real. It only exists in human minds. You cannot truthfully label ANYTHING as good and evil.

It's made up.

Cinnabon is good, yet evil.



and pain and hunger are not the same as human ideas. They are chemical signals in your body that nobody can avoid. However, teach a child that eating cereal is "evil" and you will see that child grow up denouncing cereal as evil.

debatable, but that's for a different thread

[Blake]

snakeboy I was not trying to be sarcastic or a dick head I really would like you to answer at least one of my questions.

You thought only ChumpDumper can ask all the questions around here?

you just don't ask any good questions.

[Blake]

What's beyond the edges of the universe?

you sound like a flat earth society member

[z0sa]

you sound like a flat earth society member

Scientists glimpse 'dark flow' lurking beyond the edge of the universe (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3352360/Scientists-glimpse-dark-flow-lurking-beyond-the-edge-of-the-universe.html)

[Blake]

I could tell you what I think about these topics but to have Blake calling me a lier 24/7 and to have Chump asking me to prove God knew about 9/11 kinda gets old.

I don't call you a liar 24/7. You just lied again.


Sadly there aren't many people these days in the politics forum where you can have intelligent debates with anymore.

That might actually be true.

Who do you think was behind 9/11?



http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/eltoroloco6996/Proofthatgoddoesexist.png

you might be proof that the devil exists. Why else would an ass like you exist?

funny how in the picture the person fails to capitalize "god" but caps the word "ASS"......

priorities.

[Blake]

Scientists glimpse 'dark flow' lurking beyond the edge of the universe (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3352360/Scientists-glimpse-dark-flow-lurking-beyond-the-edge-of-the-universe.html)

Does a dark flow suggest God exists in your opinion?

[z0sa]

Does a dark flow suggest God exists in your opinion?

What's outside of the bubble?

[Blake]

What's outside of the bubble?

A Flying Spaghetti Monster

[z0sa]

A Flying Spaghetti Monster

So a Flying Spaghetti Monster has been pulling thousands of galaxies from outside the observable universe for 5 billion years?

[Blake]

So a Flying Spaghetti Monster has been pulling thousands of galaxies from outside the observable universe for 5 billion years?

Disprove it.

[z0sa]

Disprove it.

Do you believe in mega-massive flying spaghetti monsters?

[SnakeBoy]

snakeboy I was not trying to be sarcastic or a dick head I really would like you to answer at least one of my questions.


Well if you really want real answers to those questions you should ask a catholic or perhaps a catholic priest. I said I attend a catholic church not that I was catholic. Personally I can't take your "non sarcastic" questions seriously since most are just plays on old tired catholic jokes that I've heard a hundred times, mostly from catholics. Probably why I go to a catholic church since most that I personally know don't take themselves too seriously. Although if you had come up with something slightly original I probably would have responded just for fun.

If your looking to debate my personal religious beliefs with me you are barking up the wrong tree. I know what I believe and I don't give a shit if others believe the same or disagree.

On second thought...What the hell, I'll answer one of your "serious" questions for you.



Who, or where is this power, the priest?


Every person has to figure that out for themselves but no it's not the priest. Worshipping man is best left to the athiests.

[Blake]

Do you believe in mega-massive flying spaghetti monsters?

Since I can't disprove it, according to some in this thread, I apparently have no reason not to.

Do you know that the article you linked made reference to a 14 billion old universe?

Do you still believe in a young universe?

[z0sa]

Since I can't disprove it, according to some in this thread, I apparently have no reason not to.

Do you know that the article you linked made reference to a 14 billion old universe?

Do you still believe in a young universe?

That doesn't answer my question.

Do you believe in mega massive flying spaghetti monsters?

[SpurNation]

I was once told by an old veteran of war that there are no atheists in fox holes.

[Winehole23]

The sisters at St. Anthony said that too.

[mouse]

Well if you really want real answers to those questions you should ask a catholic or perhaps a catholic priest.

ok sorry I wanted your opinion but you can pass the buck.


I said I attend a catholic church not that I was catholic.

You don't have to be, I wanted to know something about your experiences.


Personally I can't take your "non sarcastic" questions seriously since most are just plays on old tired catholic jokes that I've heard a hundred times, mostly from catholics.

Then why not become a Baptist? I think if over 500 Baptist ministers had been accused of molesting young boys you would hear the same jokes, you don't think it's fair? Michale Jackson and Pee wee Herman have one or two perverted type accusations and they still hear it from the public even today.
Your church not only has 100s of accusations they cover it up why would you want to be part of that, or better yet why defend it? your no Catholic remember?



Probably why I go to a catholic church since most that I personally know don't take themselves too seriously. Although if you had come up with something slightly original I probably would have responded just for fun.

So you really go for the fun of it Sunday morning is not a busy time for you. It's your life but you can't go on a public message board and post in a "is there a God" topic and tell people you love to go to catholic church and not to expect any questions.




If your looking to debate my personal religious beliefs with me you are barking up the wrong tree

my bad you seem to love debates I thought I saw you in the Evolution topic.



I know what I believe and I don't give a shit if others believe the same or disagree.

Amen brother.


On second thought...What the hell, I'll answer one of your "serious" questions for you.

nice flip flop! :tu (harmless ribbing) kingpin quote!




Every person has to figure that out for themselves but no it's not the priest. Worshipping man is best left to the athiests.

ok

[mouse]

The reason I asked the questions I went to a Catholic church for three years straight I was trying to bang this girl and I had to get in good with the parents. I wanted to know if you shared the same experience as I,
but now I may never know.

[MiamiHeat]

What's beyond the edges of the universe?

who said there were any egdes to the universe?

perhaps the universe is a sphere.

[MiamiHeat]

I was once told by an old veteran of war that there are no atheists in fox holes.

I've heard that 100298328 times.

It's bullshit. There are.

and EVEN IF I let you think it was true, the only thing it proves is that humans will do anything to save their lives when they are scared. Psychological issue, not a religious one.

[SpurNation]

I've heard that 100298328 times.

and EVEN IF I let you think it was true, the only thing it proves is that humans will do anything to save their lives when they are scared. Psychological issue, not a religious one.

It appears you LET yourself believe you have the power to let people think. :lol

[mouse]

ok so from what I can gather from all these topics is..........

There was a huge bang then the earth took a few billion years to cool down then some sort of bacteria formed legs crawled out of the warm liquid and evolved into many different creatures, and after a few billion more years there was man?

And your saying all theses creatures that have no souls evolved into a human that can care,hate,love,cry,think,invent,laugh,kill,forgive ,create,and worship?

oh almost forgot .....can also deceive others.

And the other option is a creator? What do you think common sense suggest?

[AussieFanKurt]

haha i'm glad I started this dicussion
thought it would have already been done

I personally dont believe in it

[boutons_deux]

"saying all theses creatures that have no souls"

Even childish, fairy-tale-believing "Christians" believe God is everywhere. But they've been indoctrinated not to think beyond/deeper than/behind the cant programmed into them.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Organized religions in this world believe things such as:

1) If you're good while you live then you get to fuck a lot after your dead.
2) If you're good while you live then you get your own planet and fuck a lot when your dead.
3) If you fuck with God's chosen people then he'll send a guy with wings to kill a bunch of your children unless you put sheep blood on your door
4) a guy can take demons out of people and put them into pigs.

The idea of a creator sure is convenient though.

Its hard to think of mechanism by which the single cell organisms who were the only life on earth for a billion years evolved into multicellular organisms. Lets say god did it.

Can't explain the phsyics in the first billionth of a billionth of a second after the big bang? God did it...

Relations between Egypt and Israel normalize and of course it has to be god...

Get a raise? God did it.

Lose your job? Well thats your fault.

Quite franly the whole western idea of god is pretty lame. the western god is singular, sentient in the same sense as we are and is singular. hes omniscient and omnipotent and hasnt done shit for 15 or so centuries to prove his existence, then they wrap it up in the whole 'you cannot possibly understand the mind of god' crap.

Ive always liked that one by the way. Its kind of like saying that because I cannot understand how accounting works that you cannot either. Its stupid. Not to mention that by saying that god has a mind your saying that he perceives things as we do.

Now this is not to say I do not believe in the possibility of different modes of perception or other beings/things that are more powerful/perceptive than we are; I just refuse to use that as an answer for everything that I don't understand or let me be led around by the nose by people that try to feed me that bullshit

[AussieFanKurt]

Good answer Fuzzy, I agree with a lot of what you said, if not all of it

[SnakeBoy]

The reason I asked the questions I went to a Catholic church for three years straight I was trying to bang this girl and I had to get in good with the parents. I wanted to know if you shared the same experience as I,

I've banged a few catholic girls, never had to do that. Taking them out to a really nice dinner always worked for me. You should have tried that first and saved yourself alot of time.

[z0sa]

who said there were any egdes to the universe?

perhaps the universe is a sphere.

A dark flow pulling clusters of galaxies (the largest structures in the universe) to a point outside of said universe means there's something beyond the universe.

What's outside the bubble?

[Blake]

That doesn't answer my question.

Do you believe in mega massive flying spaghetti monsters?

No. Get to your point.

[z0sa]

No.

Idiot.

What's outside the bubble?

[Blake]

Idiot.

That was a fantastic question.

Get to your point.


What's outside the bubble?

We don't know.

What do you think is outside the bubble?

[z0sa]

That was a fantastic question.

Thank you.


We don't know.

Do you agree there is something outside the known universe pulling huge clusters of galaxies towards it?

[Blake]

ok so from what I can gather from all these topics is..........

There was a huge bang then the earth took a few billion years to cool down then some sort of bacteria formed legs crawled out of the warm liquid and evolved into many different creatures, and after a few billion more years there was man?

And your saying all theses creatures that have no souls evolved into a human that can care,hate,love,cry,think,invent,laugh,kill,forgive ,create,and worship?

oh almost forgot .....can also deceive others.

And the other option is a creator? What do you think common sense suggest?

has it ever occured to you that god might have created the universe 14 billion years ago using a big bang?

[Blake]

Thank you.

fantastic thank you.


Do you agree there is something outside the known universe pulling huge clusters of galaxies towards it?

It has been observed that something beyond the visible universe is pulling galaxy clusters to it at extraordinary speeds.

What do you think it is that is outside the bubble?

[Blake]

Do you know that the article you linked made reference to a 14 billion old universe?

Do you still believe in a young universe?

[rjv]

i'm surprised no one has even brought up the topics of multiverses yet (or string theory and the 11 or 12 dimensions which should exist, mathematically speaking).

good to see you to blake (it would be nice to use a&m beating tech this weekend as an example of a "miracle" )

[z0sa]

It has been observed that something beyond the visible universe is pulling galaxy clusters to it at extraordinary speeds.

This is wrong in a very key area. Reread the article, dimwit.

Second, you don't believe in a mega massive spaghetti monster. Why do you contend one is pulling clusters of hundreds of galaxies towards itself?

[z0sa]

Do you know that the article you linked made reference to a 14 billion old universe?

Yep.


Do you still believe in a young universe?

Did you read the article?

[Blake]

i'm surprised no one has even brought up the topics of multiverses yet (or string theory and the 11 or 12 dimensions which should exist, mathematically speaking).

that starts around page 20


good to see you to blake (it would be nice to use a&m beating tech this weekend as an example of a "miracle" )

too bad the only way to see it is to go to the game in lubbock.....

a&m stinks so bad that nobody wants to pick up the coverage. If they can keep the deficit to with 30, it will be a miracle.

[Blake]

This is wrong in a very key area. Reread the article, dimwit.


A survey of hundreds of moving galaxy clusters, each of which contains hundreds of millions of stars, shows that they are defying expectations by moving at roughly two million miles per hour towards a particular location that may lie beyond the horizon of our observable universe.

The universe is approximately 14 billion years old and the "cosmological horizon" is defined by the distance from where the light emitted at the moment of the big bang reaches us today - roughly 14 billion light years.



Reread your article, dimwit.


Second, you don't believe in a mega massive spaghetti monster. Why do you contend one is pulling clusters of hundreds of galaxies towards itself?

I never said I believe a mega massive spaghetti monster is pulling clusters of galaxies towards itself.

reread my posts, dimwit.

you still haven't answered the question.

"what do you think is outside the bubble that is pulling these clusters?"


You can't win.

[Blake]

Yep.

Do you believe in your article?


Did you read the article?

Yep.

[z0sa]

Reread your article, dimwit.

Did you or did you not say they are being dragged beyond the visible universe?




I never said I believe a mega massive spaghetti monster is pulling clusters of galaxies towards itself.

Yes, you did. :lol I know it makes you realize how stupid you are.


you still haven't answered the question.

"what do you think is outside the bubble that is pulling these clusters?"

Because I'm still discerning why it would be a flying spaghetti monster, Blake.

According to your theory, is it pulling the galaxies with its invisible noodly appendage?



You can't win.

You're an easily outsmarted person, and your arguments are full of logical fallacies. Therefore, I contend not only can I win, I do so by default.

[Blake]

Did you or did you not say they are being dragged beyond the visible universe?

I said:


It has been observed that something beyond the visible universe is pulling galaxy clusters to it at extraordinary speeds.

What do you think it is that is outside the bubble?



Yes, you did. :lol I know it makes you realize how stupid you are.

yes, that is my mistake for you using sarcasm. Apparently you don't know how to detect it.

It's also why when you directly asked "do you believe in FSM?" I said, "no".


Because I'm still discerning why it would be a flying spaghetti monster, Blake.

According to your theory, is it pulling the galaxies with its invisible noodly appendage?

No. what do you think is pulling it?


You're an easily outsmarted person, and your arguments are full of logical fallacies. Therefore, I contend not only can I win, I do so by default.

what do you think is pulling it?

Do you believe your article is correct?

Are you simply trolling this thread?

Why can you not detect sarcasm?

You are an idiot.

[z0sa]

Does a dark flow suggest God exists in your opinion?


What's outside of the bubble?


A Flying Spaghetti Monster


So a Flying Spaghetti Monster has been pulling thousands of galaxies from outside the observable universe for 5 billion years?


Disprove it.


I never said I believe a mega massive spaghetti monster is pulling clusters of galaxies towards itself.

You can't prove a negative. Therefore, you're clearly implying that is what is pulling the galaxies out.

You're one of the challenged kids, I understand.

Only a retard like Blake could misuse Pastafarianism :lol

[rjv]

an interesting excerpt from an article in discovery:

“Scientism,” Dawkins tells me later, “is the pejorative word sometimes used for the view that science can explain everything and kind of arrogates to itself the privilege of explaining everything. Science cannot tell you what is right and wrong. When it comes to really interesting questions, like ‘Where did the laws of physics come from?’ or ‘How did the universe arrive in the first place?’ I genuinely don’t know whether science will answer those deep and at present mysterious questions; I am confident that if science can’t answer them, nothing else can. But it may be that nothing will ever answer them.”
Dawkins expresses skepticism at the Church’s mission to build a bridge (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080630/-year-of-mendel-to-bridge-faith-science-divide.htm) between science and theology with the use of philosophy. “There is nothing to build a bridge to,” he says. “Theology is a complete and utter non­subject.” At one point in my talk with Dawkins, Father George Coyne (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-401950/Pope-sacks-astronomer-evolution-debate.html), the well-respected retired head of the Vatican Observatory (and, as such, a former member of the Academy of Sciences), becomes the subject of conversation.
“I met him a few weeks ago and liked him very much,” Dawkins says. “And he said to me that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe in God, and so I said, ‘Why do you believe in God?’ and he said: ‘It’s quite simple. I was brought up Catholic.’ When I think about good scientists — and some are devoutly religious and many of them are Catholic, Jesuit brothers and priests, for instance — I can never make out whether they are compartmentalizing their minds. Sometimes if you press them, it turns out that what they believe is something very different from what it says in the Creed. It turns out that all they really believe is that there is some deeply mysterious unknown at the root of the universe.”
Dawkins’s comments stuck with me. In the many interviews I had with priests, each expressed a sophisticated theology that seemed far more (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26274906/page/2/#) abstract than what you might find occupying the mind of an average believer. Is belief in a deeply mysterious unknown root of the universe such a bad thing for science (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/oct/cover/), even if it is perceived through the framework of Christian concepts and imagery?
“I did not tell Richard Dawkins that there was no reason to believe in God,” says Coyne, who counts Dawkins a friend. “I said reasons are not adequate. Faith is not irrational, it is arational; it goes beyond reason. It doesn’t contradict reason. So my take is precisely that faith, to me, is a gift from God. I didn’t reason to it, I didn’t merit it — it was given to me as a gift through my family and my teachers.... My science helps to enrich that gift from God, because I see in his creation what a marvelous and loving god he is. For instance, by making the universe an evolutionary universe — he didn’t make it a ready-made, like a washing machine (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26274906/page/2/#) or a car — he made it a universe that has in it a participation of creativity. Dawkins’s real question to me should be, ‘How come you have the gift of faith and I don’t?’ And that’s an embarrassment for me. The only thing I can say is that either you have it and don’t know it, or God works with each of us differently, and God does not deny that gift to anybody. I firmly believe that.”



this takes me to the point i want to make which is that i firmly believe that some personalities evolve or shape into a mind set that just cannot rationalize the existence of god and thus there is no faith in god's existence for such personalities. whereas other personalities do make that assertion. additionally, language really limits our abilities to really express our inner beliefs and even limits our arguments for or against the existence of god as well, because as i have mentioned before almost all of it becomes metaphysical. even dawkins concedes as much when he indicates that all science can really offer is tautology. it is interesting to me, however, that here we have two rational, scientific minds on opposite ends of belief, and yet sharing a mutual appreciation for one another. it reminds me of the subject in the book albert camus and the minister.

just thought i'd bring this up as a side point.

[rascal]

Only after you explain your proposition that belief in God can be reconciled with science...


This is a cope out to not answer the question.

[ElNono]

This is a cope out to not answer the question.

Not really. I asked first and got no response.

[Blake]

You can't prove a negative. Therefore, you're clearly implying that is what is pulling the galaxies out.

I've clearly stated I was being sarcastic and do not believe such.

But since you fail to put it all together:

"There is no spaghetti monster pulling the galaxies out."


You're one of the challenged kids, I understand.

I understand you are failing miserably at the game.


Only a retard like Blake could misuse Pastafarianism :lol

I did not misuse anything.

What do you think is pulling at the galaxies?

You brought it up. Simple question that you have failed to answer now for about the 5th time.

You are losing again as usual.

[mouse]

I've banged a few catholic girls, never had to do that. Taking them out to a really nice dinner always worked for me. You should have tried that first and saved yourself alot of time.


It was her parents that invited me to church. if I said no then I would not be good enough to be with her alone in the house while they are away!

You have a choice of three boys your daughter can stay home with while you and your wife go to a movie.

A: A boy with long hair and a born to lose tattoo on his arm

B: A boy with his cap on backwards ,gold chain on his neck, and an NWA tee shirt on


C: A boy she just went to church with.

if you need more time I can wait until later tonight, I still have some ChumpDumper ass to kick in the 9/11 topics.


http://xenlogic.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/atheism-defined.jpg

[Blake]

You have a choice of three boys your daughter can stay home with while you and your wife go to a movie.

A: A boy with long hair and a born to lose tattoo on his arm

B: A boy with his cap on backwards ,gold chain on his neck, and an NWA tee shirt on


C: A boy she just went to church with.

if you need more time I can wait until later tonight, I still have some ChumpDumper ass to kick in the 9/11 topics.




D. none of the above

no good parent would leave their daughter at home by herself with any of those boys

Weeeeeeeee

[Re-Animator]

D. none of the above

no good parent would leave their daughter at home by herself with any of those boys

Weeeeeeeee

And wonder why when you get back home the fridge is missing a cucumber?

Weeeeeeeee

[Re-Animator]

I've banged a few catholic girls

Ok dude ease up on the horn tooting, lets at least see a pic of yourself so we can see if it's even possible.

[AussieFanKurt]

And wonder why when you get back home the fridge is missing a cucumber?

Weeeeeeeee

roflcoptaaaa :lol
nice one
+1

[Blake]

And wonder why when you get back home the fridge is missing a cucumber?

Weeeeeeeee

I would assume she ate it. What do you do with cucumbers when your parents leave?

Weeeeeeee

[mouse]

I would assume she ate it. What do you do with cucumbers when your parents leave?

Weeeeeeee

If your really that interested why stop by later and toss my salad?

Weeeeeeee

[AussieFanKurt]

Bill Maher is god

[mouse]

Bill Maher is god

If he really was why have "New Rules" every week?

[AussieFanKurt]

I'm obviously not serious
But I thought of him highly after Religulous

[Blake]

If your really that interested why stop by later and toss my salad?

Weeeeeeee

So you want me to come over and toss your salad while you show me what you do with cucumbers when your parents leave?

If that's how you get your "weeeeeees" great, but I'll pass.

[SnakeBoy]

It was her parents that invited me to church. if I said no then I would not be good enough to be with her alone in the house while they are away!

You have a choice of three boys your daughter can stay home with while you and your wife go to a movie.

A: A boy with long hair and a born to lose tattoo on his arm

B: A boy with his cap on backwards ,gold chain on his neck, and an NWA tee shirt on


C: A boy she just went to church with.



Parents pick C but the catholic girl is going to fuck A or B or both.

[mouse]

So you want me to come over and toss your salad while you show me what you do with cucumbers when your parents leave?

If that's how you get your "weeeeeees" great, but I'll pass.

ok but if you decide to change your mind I will save you some creamy Italian,

Ps: I will stop by later and give you back your CD you left in my car.

http://www.thatchristianstore.com/welcome/images/kids/VeggieTales%20Worship%20Songs.jpg

[Blake]

ok but if you decide to change your mind I will save you some creamy Italian,

Ps: I will stop by later and give you back your CD you left in my car.

http://www.thatchristianstore.com/welcome/images/kids/VeggieTales%20Worship%20Songs.jpg

I'm not sure why you are trying to proposition me for gay/veggie sex, but again, no thanks.

[AussieFanKurt]

thats how mouse rolls

[Guru of Nothing]

For the believers in the Theory of Evolution, is there an end game to evolution? ... think about it

For the Dogmatics ... don't think about it.

[admiralsnackbar]

For the believers in the Theory of Evolution, is there an end game to evolution? ... think about it

For the Dogmatics ... don't think about it.


By end-game do you mean after-life, or ultimate purpose? And either way, does a lack of "end-game" make a process less valuable or meaningful?

[Guru of Nothing]

By end-game do you mean after-life, or ultimate purpose? And either way, does a lack of "end-game" make a process less valuable or meaningful?

To answer your question - Ultimate purpose.

Are you suggesting that evolution meanders like an infinitely long river, never reaching an end?

[admiralsnackbar]

To answer your question - Ultimate purpose.

Are you suggesting that evolution meanders like an infinitely long river, never reaching an end?

Science isn't in the business of teleology; all it does is answer the question "how?" Which is precisely why the anti-science fundamentalist movement is so frustrating... they needlessly feel threatened by something which coexists with -- and serves an entirely different purpose than -- their faith.

But I wonder... is the notion of a continuum any less meaningless than the idea that we're created to get a report card for our life that either sends us to eternal happiness or suffering? Is that meaningful?

[Blake]

For the believers in the Theory of Evolution, is there an end game to evolution? ... think about it


if you die and go to heaven, does that count as evolving?

[Spursfan092120]

yes...yes I do...and we have got to quit starting threads like this..it's just begging for people to get pissed off.

[Blake]

yes...yes I do...and we have got to quit starting threads like this..it's just begging for people to get pissed off.

nobody is begging you to post in this thread

[Duff McCartney]

No.

[Thompson]

Yes.

[smeagol]

I do

[smeagol]

I do

[whottt]

Do you believe in personal computers?

Good thing someone did....IMHO.


Ancient folk would probably be pretty impressed with the PC, I wonder what their description of it would sound like...

"Wafer thin microchips made from silicone and a complex chemical treatment process placed in a system board coordinated with various integrated circuit boards, PCI slots, with SATA drives"


If you showed them a PC their description would probably read something exactly like that some 2000 years later after countless translations into other languages, revisions and reinterpretations...



Seriously though, I think it's a pretty obvious conclusion that since the bible doesn't read like the scientific textbook it claims to be...it's total bullshit and fairytales. 100%. Especially that part where it claims god is some old man sitting on a throne in the clouds.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you believe in god?
One of my coworkers would say yes, calling her "She who must be obeyed."

[DarkReign]

I dont believe in God, I believe in Ancient Astronauts. Its just as plausible.

Is blue text necessary?

[AussieFanKurt]

Even if there is a god, it wont be behind some fanatical, irrational man-made religion

[word]

The best thing about this thread, is I get to see who I won't have to be hanging out with for eternity.

[AussieFanKurt]

please prove heaven

[whottt]

Even if there is a god, it wont be behind some fanatical, irrational man-made religion

Why do you say that? I'd say if there was a god that interacted in any way with ancient civilizations and he gave them any sort of guidlines to live by...it would read exactly like some fanatical man-made religion in our time now.

[AussieFanKurt]

Man destroys religion. Man destroys god, if there even is one but making fanatical irrational rules that dont fit the 21st century. If God is really behind man-made religion and everything it stands for. Fuck him

[whottt]

I dont believe in God, I believe in Ancient Astronauts. Its just as plausible.

And why do they have to be different? They didn't have a word for Ancient Astronaut back then...they'd use the word God or perhaps God was their word for Ancient Astronaut.

Perhaps it's their word for extra-dimensional scientist.

You see none of the religions that I know attempt to give detailed explanations of exactly how anything was done...they simply say it was done and many regelate them as fairytales because they do not offer that explanation.

They are not intended for that purpose, they are intended to be guildelines to live by, not directions on how to become gods ourselves.

I don't really see what's so hard to believe about it...we're pretty much on the cusp of creating life now, in fact I'd say we already can, we ourselves have directly evolved other creatures to suit our needs in just a few decades(a shit load of dog breeds).


The word gay now means something entirely different than it did a mere 40 years ago...there's no way we know exactly what they were saying or intending to say...

Furthermore, most of the religions pre-date recorded history and were meant to be told to children in terms they can understand...children are not going to understand scientific explanations, nor do they have much interest in them.




The simple fact of the matter is...if some scientist created us, created our planet created our entire Universe, coded our DNA right down to the last strand, gave us rules to follow, to evolve by(and religion has been part of our biocultural evolution as long as we have been bioculturally evolving)....he'd be God whether we could explain him in scientific terms or not.

If God came down here right now, the same God that the Abrahamic religions speak of...we would not have the description as they did back then.

Just like they wouldn't have the same description of car as we do.

And no doubt someone with science that advanced likely already knows the keys to immortality, something we ourselves are pondering the possibily of now...

I just don't see why people have such a difficult time reconciling the two things...I can see people see rejecting the way people interpret and utilize region for personal gain, I can see them rejecting their own childlike view of religion...

I don't see how they can continually reject the notion of God and religion in the name of a lack of corroborated scientific evidence...they didn't have science back then nor do I believe we are the pinnacle of our scientific capabilities now.. We don't even understand everything about ourselves yet much less our planet, our Universe. We can only try to understand it.

[whottt]

please prove heaven

http://www.news.wisc.edu/13422

Tell Science to advance more....if it's got all the answers.


Took em fucking decades to finally say...ok yeah, Adam's probably a yes, but we aren't going to call him Adam.


They didn't have the word dimension back then either.



If that dimension doesn't work for you..

Consider your Dad's testicle...and don't tell me you had any conception then of what lie beyond...but there you were.

Elevating into higher planes of existence and conciousness



Near as I can tell every single one of us is already in our 3rd different form, and with each jump we've gone to a higher plane of existence, and a higher level or conciousness...


Let's just remember that every single person in this thread on this forum, except boutons, first existed in a testicle and knew one thing, swim, knew it, and did it, then in a uterus. We can even fuck around with that to an extent now...it won't be long till we can determine things like hair color, eye color disposition etc.






Another example of a different dimension goes back to that PC analogy I began with...just about everything in the material world first existed in an different plane of existence, one we can't see, or touch, but every one has contact with...the human imagination. Some times we access it in dreams, sometimes we access it directly, but access it we do...and we bring stuff from it, into our own, every single day...with a just a little ritual....constructing.



Magic potions, spirits, ghosts, visions...everyone thinks ancient folk just pulled this shit out of their ass, across the planet for the hell of it or something...it's not that these things have no basis in reality, it's that we lack the ability to reconcile their descriptions and perceptions with our own.

IOW, we aren't near as smart as we think we are...scientific thinker or otherwise, that is the one thing my personal study of the history man has left me no doubt about.



I don't need to wait for science to tell me we aren't the top of the fucking food chain and don't know everything there is to know...I can simply look up in the sky or down at the ground and see the ample evidence.


Beyond all that...there are hundreds of millions of people that find religion and belief in God to be very real and tangible thing in their lives...entire civilizations have been built upon them....whereas nothing has been built upon a belief in nothing.



You hear stories about spirits...let's just say evil ones, things you can't see with your eyes, hear with your ears, smell with your nose...they describe these as unseen things with a malicious purpose to enter your body and fuck you up...possess you.


I don't see why it's so hard to reconcile that with a virus. They didn't have the word virus back then. That doesn't invalidate their claim...they were right. Something they couldn't see or smell or hear, was entering a body and fucking it up...and there's no doubt placebo's exist...belief, there's also no doubt that many of those things they called potions contained ingredients we now make pharmaceuticals from often for the exact same purpose.


It's not that the PC isn't miraculous you see...it's just that you've ceased to be amazed by it.

[NASpurs]

Yes.

:)

[Blake]

And why do they have to be different? They didn't have a word for Ancient Astronaut back then...they'd use the word God or perhaps God was their word for Ancient Astronaut.

Perhaps it's their word for extra-dimensional scientist.



so you believe in extra dimensional scientists....

no surprises here.

[Blake]

http://www.news.wisc.edu/13422

Tell Science to advance more....if it's got all the answers.


Took em fucking decades to finally say...ok yeah, Adam's probably a yes, but we aren't going to call him Adam.

so will science ever find the tree that Adam ate the fruit from, thus disobeying the extra dimensional scientist?



They didn't have the word dimension back then either.

who is 'they'?


If that dimension doesn't work for you..

Consider your Dad's testicle...and don't tell me you had any conception then of what lie beyond...but there you were.

Elevating into higher planes of existence and conciousness

so you are saying that the Earth is like God's testicle?


Near as I can tell every single one of us is already in our 3rd different form, and with each jump we've gone to a higher plane of existence, and a higher level or conciousness...

you've definitely gone to a higher plane.


Magic potions, spirits, ghosts, visions...everyone thinks ancient folk just pulled this shit out of their ass, across the planet for the hell of it or something...it's not that these things have no basis in reality, it's that we lack the ability to reconcile their descriptions and perceptions with our own.

I think you are using some magic potions right now.


IOW, we aren't near as smart as we think we are...scientific thinker or otherwise, that is the one thing my personal study of the history man has left me no doubt about.

you actually realize you aren't as smart as you think you are?

I could have told you that.


Beyond all that...there are hundreds of millions of people that find religion and belief in God to be very real and tangible thing in their lives...entire civilizations have been built upon them....whereas nothing has been built upon a belief in nothing.

which God?


You hear stories about spirits...let's just say evil ones, things you can't see with your eyes, hear with your ears, smell with your nose...they describe these as unseen things with a malicious purpose to enter your body and fuck you up...possess you.

I don't see why it's so hard to reconcile that with a virus. They didn't have the word virus back then. That doesn't invalidate their claim...they were right. Something they couldn't see or smell or hear, was entering a body and fucking it up...and there's no doubt placebo's exist...belief, there's also no doubt that many of those things they called potions contained ingredients we now make pharmaceuticals from often for the exact same purpose.

You are saying they thought that viruses were demons but science has since proven otherwise.

You just invalidated their claim.


It's not that the PC isn't miraculous you see...it's just that you've ceased to be amazed by it.

do you believe that the Bible was written by God?

After reading it, I have definitely ceased to be amazed by it.

[DMX7]

Tell Science to advance more....if it's got all the answers.


That's a pretty naive thing to say. Fact is, modern science is advancing pretty quickly. And more importantly, nearly every meaningful advance in modern science has contradicted the bible and/or creationists.

You also need to learn the meaning of extra dimensions. It has nothing to do with dreams, magic potions, and whatever other nonsense you lumped into your interpretation of it.

[AussieFanKurt]

At least new scientific material can be backed up with some sort of solid evidence. Its happening fast. Whereas religion in itself has no proof of anything whatsoever and youre just believing an ancient book and some random bloke who apparently could cause miricles. I know if I'm going to use logic and sense that I'll stick with science

[whottt]

That's a pretty naive thing to say. Fact is, modern science is advancing pretty quickly. And more importantly, nearly every meaningful advance in modern science has contradicted the bible and/or creationists.

You also need to learn the meaning of extra dimensions. It has nothing to do with dreams, magic potions, and whatever other nonsense you lumped into your interpretation of it.

I'm not naive, it's pretty obvious you don't understand the point I am making. There is a reason the past dialogues between you and I have been particularly hostile, it's because you make replies like you just did, where it's actually you does not have a clue what I am talking about and you take a condescending tone because of your inability to understand. So I will tell you what, rather just launching in the part where I call you stupid, because I really don't even want to go to that much effort, I'll just say I've zero desire, and I mean zero desire, to discuss anything on this topic any further with you based on the reply you just made, and we'll just leave it at that. You go ahead and pat yourself on the back or whatever it is you want to do...

[whottt]

At least new scientific material can be backed up with some sort of solid evidence. Its happening fast. Whereas religion in itself has no proof of anything whatsoever and youre just believing an ancient book and some random bloke who apparently could cause miricles. I know if I'm going to use logic and sense that I'll stick with science


Well Kurt if it's going to be an either or thing for you I'll just say this(and science can back me up on it)...


As long as we have been modern men we have had some form of religious belief in a higher being(s), or a higher plane of existence, there is even evidence we might have had those beliefs before we were modern men. I don't have the exact numbers off the top of my head but for at least 35,000 years it has been a major, possibly the primary part of our societal organization and our biocultural evoltion, and some branches of science theorize that pepole who believe in higher beings or higher planes of existence, that have the capability and willingness to do so, survived better than those that didn't.

I'm sure you can understand that given your faith in science...since science itself has proven the placebo effect is a real thing.

There is not a single great civilization in our history that was not built upon either a belief in a higher being(s) or higher planes of existence, or both. The civilizations arose with similar concepts, in some cases, seemingly totally independent of one another.


35,000 years right up this very day.


Science, at least in the way you consider it a competitor of religon, otoh, has been a part of our biolcultural evolution, for 2500 years at best.

35,000 years vs 2500 years.

And that's not even taking into account that fact that science is itself a child of religion.


There's absolutely no doubt that religion has served us far better, far more successfully, for far longer.


So I'd say your faith is miguided and goes totally against the actual facts of our evolution and our history.


And if we should do something stupid like blow ourselves up, pollute our world, kill our ocean, and render the planet unlivable, it will be science, not religion, that provided us with the means to do so.


Science has us given the ability to destroy ourselves, our entire species. It's not exactly a teddy bear.

[AussieFanKurt]

There's absolutely no doubt that religion has served us far better, far more successfully, for far longer.

Science has us given the ability to destroy ourselves, our entire species. It's not exactly a teddy bear.

Ummm theres been so many wars fought regarding religion its not funny. So to say that science has given us the ability to destory ourselves is hypocritical.

I dont really care if we've been built with people believing in religion. Just because so many people believe in something doesnt make it any less crazy.

Please tell me how religion has serves us better. It just gives fake hope to people and sure sometimes coincidences happen but otherwise thats life. With war and conflict that was facilitated by religion, I wouldnt say its served more successfully. Maybe equally. But not successfully

[DarkReign]

Honestly whottt, you didnt write one thing I disagree with. I wasnt kidding about Ancient Astronauts....as opposed to the Judeo-Christian interpretation of whatever they witnessed.

It is just as likely that humanity was created and visited by an advanced civilization as it is that an omnipotent Creator favors only us, created us and visited us through his Son.

I am much too cynical to buy the latter but open-minded enough to consider the former. Not because it strokes my scientific interest just the right way but because if it were true, much would be explained (Easter Island, the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan pyramids, 13k+ year old relics and structures of such machined precision that they cant even be duplicated in the modern age...even the Hubble Telescope lense doesnt hold the same tolerance as some of these carbonite (iirc?) carvings. Carbonite is the second hardest substance on Earth, the only thing we can use to cut carbonite is diamond. That means 13k+ years ago, ancient man was using diamond cutters and a really, really big bridgeport to hold those tolerances, cutting on a substance that the nearest quarry to the structure's sight is thousands of miles away).

Honestly, in context, its the best explanation Ive heard for these ancient oddities, engineering marvels and downright unexplainable ability by any standard.

I am not adverse to their being a grand creator (God, aliens, both, who knows?), I am only adverse to humanity's accepted history of trying to explain and worship Him. My hostility has always been aimed solely at man's interpretation.

[whottt]

Ummm theres been so many wars fought regarding religion its not funny.

That's not really true...wars are fought now, and pretty much always, to gain resources and for little other reason. Religion may be a vehicle that serves to unite and divide groups of people in order to fight those wars, but seldom are they fought just in the name of religion.

If people don't unite or divide based on religious beliefs, they will unite or divide for some other reason.

The Civil War in my country wasn't fought over religion, WWI wasn't really fought over it, WWII may or may not have been...but WWI and II were just as much resource wars as anything else.


I mean the death total from just those three wars is probably pretty close to the death total of all other wars in the history of man combined.





So to say that science has given us the ability to destory ourselves is hypocritical.


But religion hasn't given us the ability to destroy ourselves, and sicence has.


Given the fact that we have a tendency to make war, whether it's for religious reasons or not, that's not a really a good direction to go.


And those weren't bibles the US dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.



I dont really care if we've been built with people believing in religion. Just because so many people believe in something doesnt make it any less crazy.

If it's so crazy then how come it works so well in building civilizations, civil being the key word there...and has for the entirity of our existence on this planet?


Far better than anything else.


In fact there's no evidence that you can have a civilizationof any sort without it.





Please tell me how religion has serves us better. It just gives fake hope to people and sure sometimes coincidences happen but otherwise thats life.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by fake hope...




With war and conflict that was facilitated by religion,

Which wars are these exactly, I bet you I can show you an underlying cause for most of them not due to religion.



I wouldnt say its served more successfully. Maybe equally. But not successfully

And you would be wrong about that, as there is not a single civilization in the history of man that has been founded upon science.

Furthermore, self righteousness and believing oneself superior to another, which was usually part and parcel of those religious wars of which you speak, is a human trait, not a religious one...scientists do it too. So do atheists.

[EmptyMan]

The only time I "talk" to God is when I am cursing him or laughing at this fcuked up world he apparently created.

I've tried being an atheist but it never sticks. Probably because of the childhood programming.

[whottt]

fake hope


Forgot to touch on this...and I really meant to as it goes back to my first post in this thread.


I don't see what's so fake about hope...as a general rule, you have to believe something before it will happen. Believing it may not actually make it happen instantaneously, but generally speaking nothing gets done without first a belief that it will. There is absolutely nothing fake about it.

And back to my placebo point, science itself has verfied that simply believing something can actually make it so at least when it comes to oneself.

There is absolutely nothing fake about it.


That PC of which I spoke first had to have been believed to be possible before someone actually went out and proved it, manifested it so to speak. As we have been taking skys now for a century or so...we first believed we could do it before we actually did it.

The physics that allowed for us to achieve these things have been interwoved into the fabric of our reality for as long as it has existed...it just took us time to realize it and prove it, and if we didn't believe they were possible before we actually knew, we probably wouldn't have attempted them.

[whottt]

Honestly whottt, you didnt write one thing I disagree with. I wasnt kidding about Ancient Astronauts....as opposed to the Judeo-Christian interpretation of whatever they witnessed.

It is just as likely that humanity was created and visited by an advanced civilization as it is that an omnipotent Creator favors only us, created us and visited us through his Son.

I am much too cynical to buy the latter but open-minded enough to consider the former. Not because it strokes my scientific interest just the right way but because if it were true, much would be explained (Easter Island, the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan pyramids, 13k+ year old relics and structures of such machined precision that they cant even be duplicated in the modern age...even the Hubble Telescope lense doesnt hold the same tolerance as some of these carbonite (iirc?) carvings. Carbonite is the second hardest substance on Earth, the only thing we can use to cut carbonite is diamond. That means 13k+ years ago, ancient man was using diamond cutters and a really, really big bridgeport to hold those tolerances, cutting on a substance that the nearest quarry to the structure's sight is thousands of miles away).

Honestly, in context, its the best explanation Ive heard for these ancient oddities, engineering marvels and downright unexplainable ability by any standard.

I am not adverse to their being a grand creator (God, aliens, both, who knows?), I am only adverse to humanity's accepted history of trying to explain and worship Him. My hostility has always been aimed solely at man's interpretation.



Seems like a segment of humans are going to find something to worship, even it's themselves.

I personally don't care what people believe...I just don't like it being imposed on others, but again, that is a human tendency, not a religious one.

[Kamnik]

No, I don't.

[Homeland Security]

Ultimately, who knows, but I can say that my own intelligence and ability demonstrates vastly greater power in my own life than any purported supernatural influence.

[AussieFanKurt]

Its fake hope because theres no one up there. When people are in such a dire situation and call to god but with no answer and their life gets worse, thats just an example.

Explain this: after WWII, there were at least 6 million jews dead. That many innocent lives just thrown away while many nazi camp officers like "Dr. Death" escaped and lived a full life. So basically, the innocent are killed in huge amounts and many of the officers who ordered their death survived. I mean there was a reason the 'Nazi Hunters' were created. Furthermore so many people who hid Jews were killed. So basically god is punishing these people for doing good. Yeah makes sense

Well you know something called the Crusades? Its this little war between Christians and Muslims and was fought due to religious clashes. It wasnt just against Muslims too. This war went for a little under 200 years. Theres at least one example for you.

Yeah lets forget about science, it hasnt helped us at all, we should just throw it out the window and forget about it

[DarkReign]

Seems like a segment of humans are going to find something to worship, even it's themselves.

True, in as much that we tend to try to find inspiration in something greater than ourselves.

Whether that be the vastness and complexity of the universe, or the stories handed down from generation to generation explaining the heavens and God.

But worshiping oneself takes it to another, even more dangerous extreme. Think the world is/was fucked up based on whose God you believe in?

Imagine if it werent an invisible man in the sky, but a human who walked the Earth. The glory of humanity's God lies in his inability to dictate human matters beyond scripture (unless youre Catholic :lol).

A living God, like the emperors of Japan, inspire sacrifice and death to a level even the ardent Catholic couldnt imagine.


I personally don't care what people believe...I just don't like it being imposed on others, but again, that is a human tendency, not a religious one.

Ive never cared what people believe so long as it doesnt influence the decisions of my community and country in a way I find detrimental to the advancement of my community/country.

Sadly, our education system is a federal institution. Therefore, its curriculum is a mandate from Washington that either includes or excludes certain elements to the angst or pleasure of your average American.

Remove the government from education and you'll have regional differences in curriculum...which is far better than what we have now, even if the South (or whomever) choose to worship the Christian God in study hall, far be it from me to tell them they cannot.

[AussieFanKurt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jETVUulGwc&feature=channel

[Supergirl]

yes

[Supergirl]

FYI I did a survey about this about a year ago...
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111310&highlight=Religion+survey

[AussieFanKurt]

Nice survey

[whottt]

Its fake hope because theres no one up there.

If it's fake then how come humans have believed otherwise independently of one another since time began.

How come civilizations that believed there was someone up there have prospered, while those that don't have done absolutely nothing?


Regardless of the validity of the metaphysics of it, that fake hope of which you speak has lead to more propserity and advancement than anything else.



When people are in such a dire situation and call to god but with no answer and their life gets worse, thats just an example.

Maybe so but can you tell me how no hope serves someone better than fake hope?

It's not like not calling on god does anything either.





Explain this: after WWII, there were at least 6 million jews dead. That many innocent lives just thrown away while many nazi camp officers like "Dr. Death" escaped and lived a full life. So basically, the innocent are killed in huge amounts and many of the officers who ordered their death survived. I mean there was a reason the 'Nazi Hunters' were created. Furthermore so many people who hid Jews were killed. So basically god is punishing these people for doing good. Yeah makes sense


See...your problem is with either your own conception of what God is or is supposed to be and do, or else you've been listening to bad interpretations....of which there are many. That is not the fault of religion, but rather those that interpret it shittily.

They are all intended first and foremost to pass along wisdom learned through trial and error, tools for survivals, and how to live alongside one another respectfully.

Time and time again we just ignore that part of it and look at what we want to see to justify our views, whether we want utilize religion for our own gain, or reject it.


And that WWII of which you spoke was not a religious war, for Hitler did more than just go after the Jews, he went after most of Western and Eastern Europe, Africa, the ME, and along with the Japanese, Asia and the South Pacific...

And unless there is a huge Jewish population in China and the South Pacific I am unaware of, I doubt the Japanese could have cared less about Hitler's crusade against the Jews.


Jews at their core belief believe that you should avoid destitution, they tend to be prosperous and in positions of power because of this, which makes them targets for less prosperous and less powerful groups...


It's called greed and envy, base human flaws, not religion..and I'll point out that those Jews do not share opinion on religion, and it was they who went through it, not you.

Did you see them casting off their religious beliefs because of what happened? No they did not...they simply pointed out who did it.


Even the bible says we are in control of what we do. God didn't make us robots you see...

What would be the point?


Secondly I'll point out that it was a predominantly christian country entering the fray that the changed the outcome of that war.








Well you know something called the Crusades? Its this little war between Christians and Muslims and was fought due to religious clashes. It wasnt just against Muslims too. This war went for a little under 200 years. Theres at least one example for you.

Yeah lets forget about science, it hasnt helped us at all, we should just throw it out the window and forget about it


The crusades? You mean the desire of control of the wealth of the middle east wrapped in a religious cause?

Same as it ever was...the religions change but people are always fighting over control of the middle east...they also fought over it in WWI and WWII...and it's about the wealth of the region, not religion.

That Israeli Palestinian conflict is just as much about resources as it is religious differences.


I think the problem you mainly have is with your own view of religion...


I am not a christian, or if I am I am certainly not a follower of any organized sect. I am probably a lot closer to a pagan(sci -fi) than a christian, although I reject that term as well for it is as organized and on as much of a mission as any relgion these days. But I see people nowdays doing the same thing to christians that they accuse the christians of doing...and I think it's wrong and I will continue to defend against it simply on the basis that somneone needs too....


You see the real evil in the world, is not organized religion, it's people massing together in large numbers for long periods of time. And the bigger and more powerful that mass becomes, the stupider and more dangerous it gets.


I mean it's one thing to do it when there is an immediate cause, entirely another to do it when there is none. And when the task is accomplished but the mass remains, that is when the tyranny and oppression starts, that is when things turn shitty, that is when humanity shows it's ass, whether it is wrapped in a religious guise or not.

[Blake]

I believe in whottt......even if he has me on ignore :lol