View Full Version : Obama cancels future F-22 aircraft.
xellos88330
10-22-2009, 10:12 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22defense.html
Looks like the USAF is stuck with the few F-22's they have. I think this is a huge mistake.
Thoughts?
coyotes_geek
10-22-2009, 10:20 PM
Since we're only talking about seven planes, I think we'll be okay.
With some of his political capital on the line, President Obama won a crucial victory on Tuesday when the Senate voted to strip out $1.75 billion in financing for seven more F-22 jet fighters from a military authorization bill.
coyotes_geek
10-22-2009, 10:22 PM
Also, that article is 3 months old.
Wild Cobra
10-22-2009, 10:24 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22defense.html
Looks like the USAF is stuck with the few F-22's they have. I think this is a huge mistake.
Thoughts?
No kidding. They still have to pay the contracted prices in place.
PixelPusher
10-22-2009, 10:35 PM
Ask the Nazis how well having small number of expensive, difficult to maintain, but technologically superior tanks worked out for them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/images/dday_gal_tank.jpg
chode_regulator
10-23-2009, 12:19 AM
Ask the Nazis how well having small number of expensive, difficult to maintain, but technologically superior tanks worked out for them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/images/dday_gal_tank.jpg
I was unaware taht tanks were a comparable piece of machinery to fighter aircraft. :downspin:
Cant_Be_Faded
10-23-2009, 12:42 AM
Ask the Nazis how well having small number of expensive, difficult to maintain, but technologically superior tanks worked out for them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/images/dday_gal_tank.jpg
well if they had not been economically tourniquitted around their dicks.....
Listen. I just want to make sure my tax dollars are going to whatever weapon allows us to kill as many ragheads as possible. I want the most bang for my buck.
PixelPusher
10-23-2009, 12:45 AM
I was unaware taht tanks were a comparable piece of machinery to fighter aircraft. :downspin:
The principle arguments involved are the same, but if you insist...
http://www.outtacontext.com/life/images/dad_german_jet.jpg
PixelPusher
10-23-2009, 12:52 AM
FWIW, I'm not suggesting quantity always beats quality, (as I'm sure someone can post instances where small/hi-tech beats the crap out of large/lo-tech) but there does have to be a balance. 7 more F-22s will have no effect one way or the other in Iraq in Afghanistan right now, and are not going to be the difference in air superiority in the future.
baseline bum
10-23-2009, 01:54 AM
The principle arguments involved are the same, but if you insist...
http://www.outtacontext.com/life/images/dad_german_jet.jpg
The 262 is fucking sweet. Man, did we luck out that they didn't get those planes even a year sooner.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22defense.html
Looks like the USAF is stuck with the few F-22's they have. I think this is a huge mistake.
Thoughts?
Did you know Iraq and the Taliban don't have Air Forces. Furthermore, we probably have more fighters than we already need. Most agree the F-22 is just a huge waste of money at this point even Robert Gates, who is the Sec. of Defense and a republican thinks so. I think we'll be safe without them.
xellos88330
10-23-2009, 02:56 AM
So sure we may have quite a few Raptors already, but you would have to see the operational number of Raptors to see how big of a hit it will take. Roughly 55% of the Raptor fleet will be combat ready at any given time.
This is just a guess based upon my experience working as a Weapons System Specialist on the F-117A Nighthawk during my service in the military. It is a maintenance field so I would hope that I have a lot of knowledge on what it takes to keep aircraft maintained for combat. It is hard work and very time consuming when you are working with advanced technology.
xellos88330
10-23-2009, 03:03 AM
Also, another thing. The F-35 is a cheaper aircraft and is a hell of little fighter, but the F-22 is still a better air superiority fighter. For ground attack, the F-35 would be my choice, of course with F-22's providing air cover.
PixelPusher
10-23-2009, 03:06 AM
Advanced as they are, F-22s aren't immune to obsolescence.
http://www.defensetech.org/images/x45c.JPG
Twisted_Dawg
10-23-2009, 08:01 AM
The defense contractors and the military industrial establishment are freaking out that they do not have some of their lackey's in the White House to keep their party going.
No more Vice President to manipulate a mindless, clueless president to venture into a needless war so the defense contractors can make billion upon billions of dollars. No more getting away with rolling missile defense systems into Eastern Europe with the singular goal of getting the Russians inot another arms race. No more steaming an aircraft carrier into the Persian Gulf hoping to incite the Iranian Republican Guard into attacking so we can go to war with Iran also.
Whether or not canceling the F-22 is a good idea or not, I do not know. Why build it when we cannot even defeat a backwards stoneage people that live in caves in Afghanistan?
I will tell you the people realling pushing for the F-22 and screaming at the cancellation, are the ones that have the most to lose......lose as in billions of $$$$$$$$.
DarrinS
10-23-2009, 08:02 AM
Did you know Iraq and the Taliban don't have Air Forces.
Hey everybody, it's Bill Maher.
Phenomanul
10-23-2009, 08:25 AM
eh 7 planes... in a fleet of ~180 F-22's is much ado about nothing...
TDMVPDPOY
10-23-2009, 09:00 AM
dont worry australia and its allies will buy ur shit
since the aussie dollar is nearly 1:1 with the US. dollar, i think its time to buy american currency and putting down the deposits for these toys....
Wild Cobra
10-23-2009, 10:11 AM
eh 7 planes... in a fleet of ~180 F-22's is much ado about nothing...
Except that amount of money in those jobs saves more jobs per million dollars than the bailout has!
Wild Cobra
10-23-2009, 10:13 AM
dont worry australia and its allies will buy ur shit
since the aussie dollar is nearly 1:1 with the US. dollar, i think its time to buy american currency and putting down the deposits for these toys....
Wow...
Maybe I should invest in some Aussie dollars before the US dollar crashes. Then when our dollar does crash buy US dollars back!
balli
10-23-2009, 10:19 AM
Forgive me if I trust the bi-partisan recommendation of our President and Sec. of Defense more than the onerous and discontented ramblings of Those Who Oppose Everything.
MannyIsGod
10-23-2009, 11:14 AM
Hey everybody, it's Bill Maher.
Really? You're complaining about someone stealing someone else's thoughts when you can't even figure out which voting lever to pull?
xellos88330
10-23-2009, 01:17 PM
Iraq and Afghanistan aren't the only countries in the world.
Nbadan
10-23-2009, 08:30 PM
..Air superiority ain't all that in an occupation...
Iraq and Afghanistan aren't the only countries in the world.
They're the only ones we're fighting in. Unless of course, you think Russia is coming. And even if they did, we still have a larger and more advanced military across branches by a lot... a whole lot...
Also, another thing. The F-35 is a cheaper aircraft and is a hell of little fighter, but the F-22 is still a better air superiority fighter. For ground attack, the F-35 would be my choice, of course with F-22's providing air cover.
F-35 is going to be more cost efficient especially since be it can be used across branches of the military. F-22 is probably a better air-to-air fighter but the point is we have plenty of stealth fighters. Besides, when was the last time we even had real air-to-air dog fighting type stuff.
sabar
10-24-2009, 12:55 AM
The principle arguments involved are the same, but if you insist...
http://www.outtacontext.com/life/images/dad_german_jet.jpg
Dude your examples are just silly. Both the ME262 and tiger were rushed into service because of a losing war and they still dominated their engagements. It's a good thing their cities were being firebombed night and day with pressure from the english and the soviets. If germany had any economy left at those stages (and weren't losing) those weapons could of changed the tide of war.
Better examples of expensive crap that does nothing are nuclear weapons and battleships. Good thing is one of those are already gone and the other is being reduced.
On topic, canceling the planes is no big deal. For our current wars F-15s and A-10s are fine. If russia/china start ramping up arms production then you can start ordering your uber-aircraft again (no other country with an air force would be hostile). There are enough F-22s for our current operations.
xellos88330
10-24-2009, 01:21 AM
They're the only ones we're fighting in. Unless of course, you think Russia is coming. And even if they did, we still have a larger and more advanced military across branches by a lot... a whole lot...
F-35 is going to be more cost efficient especially since be it can be used across branches of the military. F-22 is probably a better air-to-air fighter but the point is we have plenty of stealth fighters. Besides, when was the last time we even had real air-to-air dog fighting type stuff.
In Vietnam, the same question was being asked upon the invention of the Air to Air Missile, and the end of the dogfight was declared. They then decided to make a plane that was nothing more than a really fast missile platform called the F-4 Phantom. It had no gun and the Chinese and Russian air forces took advantage of it and developed superior tactics to destroy the Phantom quite easily. Then they added the gun pod to the centerline pylon and the kill ratio for the Phantom skyrocketed.
The US air power needs to be able to respond in multiple places at the same time to maintain global air superiority. There are other countries out there that could have a grudge against the US. Some quick examples are, North Korea, Iran, China (based on our intervention when they were messing with Taiwan).
I have never denied the F-35's capabilites, but it wouldn't be wise to underestimate another country other than the United States to have the capability to build an aircraft that is on par with the F-22. If it happens, kiss all those F-35's goodbye.
What is really stopping Russia from attacking the US? A treaty??? That didn't stop Hitler from attacking Russia. I mean hell, Japan flat out bushwacked us at Pearl Harbor. Anything can happen at any given moment and the US needs to be able to establish air superiority at any spot on the globe at a moments notice. You cannot do that with only around 100 or so operational F-22's let alone 300 F-35's if the enemy is hiding advanced aircraft.
symple19
10-24-2009, 01:30 AM
The F-35 JSF is the reason cutting off the F-22 isn't a big deal. There are multiple variants, and it's capabilities will be extremely impressive. It also has stealthy characteristics and the ability to do both the air supremacy and ground support role. The 3 branches that fly aircraft will all get one. USAF will get a conventional takeoff/landing, air superiority variant. Marines will get a VTOL variant, and the Navy will get a carrier borne version. Lot's of bang for the buck, and we'll make a shitload of money off of it too. Plans are to share it with NATO countries as well as other friendly nations like Brazil and So Korea.
In the end, the F-22 just cost too damn much to operate. We have plenty of them, and they are so badass that it will be a LONG time before anyone else comes close to making something comparable.
Good call by the administration/DOD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/F35A_Prototyp_AA1_2.jpg/300px-F35A_Prototyp_AA1_2.jpg
ZBt-aQ1vObM
symple19
10-24-2009, 01:39 AM
You cannot do that with only around 100 or so operational F-22's let alone 300 F-35's if the enemy is hiding advanced aircraft.
Our 4th gen F-15s are still comparable to anything anyone else can put in the air, and will be for at least the next decade. Russian fifth gen MIGs are great planes but the fact of the matter is that they can't afford to build many nor operate them. The Chinese are still flying older MIG copies that are basically equivalent to what we had in the 80's. Add in the fact that our AIM-9x AAMs are superior to anything anyone else has and you have a recipe for America kicking your ass. Go look at what our stuff did to the Iraqis in the first Gulf War and that's basically the same equipment we would run up against today. The Russians couldn't even hit targets when they invaded Georgia last summer in an air-to-ground role.
Don't worry bro, we're still the shit. Our Air Force is BY FAR still the best in the world.
velik_m
10-24-2009, 02:06 AM
What is really stopping Russia from attacking the US? A treaty???
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Nagasakibomb.jpg/502px-Nagasakibomb.jpg
...but it wouldn't be wise to underestimate another country other than the United States to have the capability to build an aircraft that is on par with the F-22.
I guess you'll just have to take that up with Secretary of Defense Robert Gates then, he's the one who recommended it. Maybe you can tab the bill for the 7 we we're going to order this year, only $1.75 Billion. But that's nothing compared to the cost of maintaining the ones we already have that are sitting around doing nothing.
What is really stopping Russia from attacking the US? A treaty??? That didn't stop Hitler from attacking Russia. I mean hell, Japan flat out bushwacked us at Pearl Harbor.
That's quite a senational perspective. I guess an incentive to attack us is what's stopping them. That and the 2000+ other fighters we have available. But ya know, if Russia does attack, I guess we could just order more planes.
RandomGuy
10-24-2009, 07:29 PM
Ask the Nazis how well having small number of expensive, difficult to maintain, but technologically superior tanks worked out for them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/images/dday_gal_tank.jpg
Better question:
Ask the Iraqis how having a large number of easy to maintain, technologically inferior tanks worked out for them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting) :p:
RandomGuy
10-24-2009, 07:31 PM
On topic, canceling the planes is no big deal. For our current wars F-15s and A-10s are fine. If russia/china start ramping up arms production then you can start ordering your uber-aircraft again (no other country with an air force would be hostile). There are enough F-22s for our current operations.
Pretty much. I worry though that the A-10 is no longer in production. They can fix and cannibalize the current fleet only so long.
RandomGuy
10-24-2009, 07:41 PM
What is really stopping Russia from attacking the US? A treaty??? That didn't stop Hitler from attacking Russia. I mean hell, Japan flat out bushwacked us at Pearl Harbor. Anything can happen at any given moment and the US needs to be able to establish air superiority at any spot on the globe at a moments notice. You cannot do that with only around 100 or so operational F-22's let alone 300 F-35's if the enemy is hiding advanced aircraft.
1) No other nation on the face of the planet has a 5th generation fighter plane.
2) Quit fixating on the Russians. They are has-beens. Their military engineering/industrial complex is GONE. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/intro.htm)
3) The Chinese are integrating themselves too deeply into the global economy to really get into a serious pissing contest militarily with anybody, especially given how dependant their economy is on exports/imports.
3) The Chinese are integrating themselves too deeply into the global economy to really get into a serious pissing contest militarily with anybody, especially given how dependant their economy is on exports/imports.
LOL, I know, this is too true. Maybe it would be cheaper to go to war with China than it would be to pay back all the debt we owe to them.
hater
10-24-2009, 09:38 PM
shit I'm gonna have to cancel my order :(
xellos88330
10-25-2009, 05:48 AM
shit I'm gonna have to cancel my order :(
:lmao
shit I'm gonna have to cancel my order :(
Bill Gates wouldn't have to, which is pretty bad ass when you think about it.
RandomGuy
10-25-2009, 02:49 PM
Our 4th gen F-15s are still comparable to anything anyone else can put in the air, and will be for at least the next decade. Russian fifth gen MIGs are great planes but the fact of the matter is that they can't afford to build many nor operate them. The Chinese are still flying older MIG copies that are basically equivalent to what we had in the 80's. Add in the fact that our AIM-9x AAMs are superior to anything anyone else has and you have a recipe for America kicking your ass. Go look at what our stuff did to the Iraqis in the first Gulf War and that's basically the same equipment we would run up against today. The Russians couldn't even hit targets when they invaded Georgia last summer in an air-to-ground role.
Don't worry bro, we're still the shit. Our Air Force is BY FAR still the best in the world.
Actually, I got into a pissing contest once with a Russian nationalist about this ver topic.
The Russians DO NOT have ANY 5th generation aircraft. They have TWO, count them TWO, 4.5 generation prototypes. Wish I could find all the links that support that, but the info is there if one cares to dig.
The link I posted earlier outlines the utter collapse of the Russian military-industrial complex.
The brain-drain of talented engineers out of Russia has left it bereft of the ability to field ANYTHING more advanced than what they currently have developed.
In essence, Russia has available to it the best of 1980's technology, and is unlikely to develop the ability to field anything remotely competitive militarily until the Chinese deign to sell them something in a couple of decades after THEY develop it.
NFGIII
10-26-2009, 11:50 AM
The principle arguments involved are the same, but if you insist...
http://www.outtacontext.com/life/images/dad_german_jet.jpg
The 262 is fucking sweet. Man, did we luck out that they didn't get those planes even a year sooner.
+1
They dominated our propeller driven aircraft but didn't have enough to be effective. The ME262 was a much faster ( approx +100 miles an a hour more) and superior aricraft. We were lucky, period. If Hitler had waited maybe another year or so then we would have most likely lost WWII. If Nazi Germany had sufficient ME262s then kiss all those B17 bombing runs goodbye which would have saved their industrial base from the type of massive damage inflicted on them by the Allies. Of course if they had not invaded the USSR then things might have been different, too. Hitler was a moron and thank God for that.
Also, another thing. The F-35 is a cheaper aircraft and is a hell of little fighter, but the F-22 is still a better air superiority fighter. For ground attack, the F-35 would be my choice, of course with F-22's providing air cover.
I think I heard that they cost roughly 45 - 55 million vs the 150+ million pricetag for the F22. And it is a joint operation with I think 7 other countries. On the side of the plane are the flags of each nation involved. IIRC
And yes I agree that having both is a much better position to be in if anything ever would happen.
F-35 is going to be more cost efficient especially since be it can be used across branches of the military. F-22 is probably a better air-to-air fighter but the point is we have plenty of stealth fighters. Besides, when was the last time we even had real air-to-air dog fighting type stuff.
The cost efficiency will be better and in these times there will be some budget cutting and down sizing going on across the board. The stimulus will have to be paid for but somehow I always want that wonder machine sitting around just in case. Call me a little cautious I guess.
The F-35 is being developed for each branch of the miilitary to fit their specific needs - The Marines are getting a Harrier type vertical liftoff plane while the Navy is having one specifically made for carrier takeoff and landings.
3) The Chinese are integrating themselves too deeply into the global economy to really get into a serious pissing contest militarily with anybody, especially given how dependant their economy is on exports/imports.
I tend to agree with this but over the course of our history nations have been known to go off the deep end. Never hurts to be prepared. I'd just wish that we have finally learned that out and out war isn't the way to solve problems but sooner or later it always seems to hit the fan. WWIII will most likely happen and everyone alive at that time will probbaly be looking at one another and saying WTF? But if you are not prepared then you're toast. Of course by then the weapons of the world will be so damn technological superior it may not even matter if you are prepared.
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