SLAM: Top 50: LeBron James, no. 1 [Archive]

Allanon

10-23-2009, 11:36 AM

Too slow D228.

I don't agree with LeBron being number 1 due to his lack of winning but at the same time; it's not a "shammockery" either.

SLAM: Top 50: LeBron James No 1 (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/2009/10/top-50-lebron-james-no-1/)

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/lebron_james_top_50.jpg

The ballots were cast, counted, and a victor has been decided.

LeBron Raymone James is now the best player in basketball.

There, that was easy. Or was it?

It certainly appears to be a concise and declarative statement. But as with almost all other things regarding the great debate, this too is subject to interpretation.

What exactly is now? Just this very moment, as in right now? These present times and the foreseeable future, as in nowadays? Perhaps something tentative or undefined, as in now and again?

Time is of the essence in this industry. The past was once now and the future soon will be. Those who’ve aren’t willing to wait any longer believe their time is now. Those who aren’t ready to leave believe their time is still now. Problem is, no one knows how long now will last.

It’s no secret that each time we compile one of these lists much ado is made of the criteria. Is it based on last year, next year or an entire career? The answer would seem to lie in another concise and declarative statement: Rankings are based solely on projected 09-10 performance. But it’s not always easy to separate the three. Anything a player is deemed capable of doing in the future is based entirely on what they’ve done in the past. Being the best is not a proclamation, it’s a journey and destination.

And what is it to be the best anyway? Is it the most advantageous player, the most suitable player or the most desirable? We were spoiled for a decade by the unquestionable legacy of Michael Jordan, because he was all three. He was the most advantageous player because he was the most talented and fundamentally sound. Coupling those advantages with a keen intellect and an indomitable will made him the most suitable player to lead a team. The dynasty that ensued made it downright silly to desire anyone else.

Since he’s left us, these titles have been fragmented. But LeBron James could unify them and put all the semantics to rest if he’d just win a championship.

He holds a very special place in both the current and historical hierarchy. He’s the most ready made prep to pro player ever, who somehow managed to exceed the hype in leading his hometown team from the doldrums of irrelevance. He’s an unprecedented package of size, skill and athleticism, as close to a one man team as we’ve ever seen. While Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade have seemingly recaptured the essence of what made Jordan great, LeBron has redirected the collective consciousness to what is possible beyond that lengthy shadow. Triple double averages, Defensive Player of the Year, leading the league in scoring and assists, you name it. Nothing is unquestionably beyond his grasp.

Which is why it’s so maddening to see him fall short. He still hasn’t found the consistency with his midrange jumper. He has yet to shoot 80% from the line. His footwork is pedestrian and his post game is underdeveloped. These shouldn’t be the flaws of a seven year vet. Yet in spite of them, there still isn’t a team in the league that can truly stop him. Only four teams would even dare say they can contain him. But those four teams are what stand between him and indisputable greatness.

We’ve been at this for years. The awe, the anticipation, the inevitability of it all. For years he’s accelerated our expectations by exceeding them so easily, but the conversation has shifted from potential to production. He’s shown us he can do all but one thing. Every other year that it didn’t happen was nothing more than an inconvenience. This year if it doesn’t happen, it’s not only failure but possibly one of catastrophic proportions. In putting such pressure on the Cavaliers to build a contender he also put pressure on himself to produce a title. If he can’t achieve that in Cleveland, then he’s put pressure on himself to find somewhere he can.

LeBron Raymone James is the best player in basketball. But he has to win.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 11:37 AM

Gots to mass disseminate that memo into the Orlando, FL. area. Ignorance is bliss.

tee, hee.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 11:43 AM

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 11:45 AM

But for all his excellence, he doesn't make his teammates better.

Psssst, Al, Kobe don't either.

redzero

10-23-2009, 11:52 AM

Everything is in its right place.

resistanze

10-23-2009, 11:56 AM

Psssst, Al, Kobe don't either.

+1

I think "making your teammates better" is such a cliche statement. How the hell was Kobe gonna make Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Sasha Vucjacic better? All of a sudden he's found that touch when he's playing with Gasol, Bynum, and Odom?

You have to build teams around superstars, be it Magic, Bird, MJ, Duncan, Snaq, Kobe or LBJ.

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 12:02 PM

Kobe sure doesn't make his players better either. Gasol is the same exact player he was in Memphis.

Danny.Zhu

10-23-2009, 12:03 PM

Psssst, Al, Kobe don't either.

True.

But Kobe can't travel legally. So I vote for Kobe.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 12:06 PM

+1

I think "making your teammates better" is such a cliche statement. How the hell was Kobe gonna make Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Sasha Vucjacic better? All of a sudden he's found that touch when he's playing with Gasol, Bynum, and Odom?

You have to build teams around superstars, be it Magic, Bird, MJ, Duncan, Snaq, Kobe or LBJ.

Only Gasol is fresh meat. Kobe ran a table that was puny & weak, start to finish. Do I care? Fuck no. I tote it up on the big board and commence to huntin' Fandoms (Spurs in particular) to flame & troll. The raw numericals is sweet, but, gettin' it without O'Neal was Ground Zero, and everybody knew it, Kobe's vehement denials withstanding.

I said many times: Kobe don't make those around him better, but, better players make Kobe better, i.e. Gasol. Gasol uses his head for something other than a hat rack. Fish accepted, Gasol is the first such type (in the Manu tradition) since the Harper, Shaw, Rice days.

redzero

10-23-2009, 12:11 PM

Kobe sure doesn't make his players better either. Gasol is the same exact player he was in Memphis.

Don't tell all the sports commentators that. He gets better teammates, and all of a sudden, he's better than Dirk and KG.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 12:15 PM

Psssst, Al, Kobe don't either.

I think he does Sir.

You look at the guys LeBron plays with and see that Cleveland was a 1 man show despite having 4 past/present All-Stars on the team.

Then you look at the Lakers with 1 All-Star but don't think of it as the Kobe show.

Everybody says the Lakers are good because Kobe has a great team.

Is this the truth or is it really that the Lakers are a great team because of Kobe?

I agree that young Kobe did not make his teammates better; but current day Kobe is probably the best team leader right now who turns under-achieving dudes into a "great team".

Pau was known as being soft as tissue paper in Memphis and lucky if he made a top 50 NBA list; now he's ranked in the Top 15 NBA players and no longer "soft". I even saw him ranked as the 3rd best Power Forward in the game recently.

Lamar Odom was known as a weed smoker; now he's the most feared 6th man outside of Manu.

Ariza was buried in the bench of the Knicks and then the Magic before coming to the Lakers. Very few people knew who Ariza was before he joined the Lakers.

Andrew Bynum went from an un-heralded 10th pick to being the "Most Improved" candidate this year and probably an All Star.

The Lakers are considered a very deep team with the likes of Jordan Farmar, Vujacic, Shannon Brown, Powell, Luke, mBenga, Gaffney. They make one of the most potent bench mobs in the NBA. Seriously, look at those names...if they weren't playing with Kobe, would we even know who they are?

The Lakers have a very deep and talented team because they play with Kobe. If these guys were elsewhere, they would be nowhere near as good as they are now.

Dex

10-23-2009, 12:20 PM

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 12:25 PM

[[[Pau was known as being soft as tissue paper in Memphis and lucky if he made a top 30 NBA list; now he's ranked in the Top 15 NBA players and no longer "soft".]]]

Is that true, Spurs Fandom, is Gasol now "no longer "soft"?"

- "Careful."

- "John Coffey" - "The Green Mile"

Allanon

10-23-2009, 12:34 PM

And for this year, Kobe's gonna add another "bad player" becomes "great player" in Ron Artest.

Everybody right now says Ron Artest is a timebomb, powder keg, ballhog, etc that is going to blow up the Lakers.

By the end of the year, they'll be saying Kobe's lucky because he got a great player like Ron Artest for cheap. And another "collusion" trade by the Lakers.

It's much easier to come up with conspiracy theories and point to cliche's rather than acknowledge that ballhog Kobe finally "gets it" when it comes to being a team leader and true MVP.

lefty

10-23-2009, 12:36 PM

+1

i think "making your teammates better" is such a cliche statement. How the hell was kobe gonna make smush parker, kwame brown, and sasha vucjacic better? All of a sudden he's found that touch when he's playing with gasol, bynum, and odom?

You have to build teams around superstars, be it magic, bird, mj, duncan, snaq, kobe or lbj.
+1

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 12:48 PM

And Al, Kobe has also failed miserably with players as well. He phoned Radmo a minute after Midnite free agent nite and begged him to come to Los Angeles. Unfortunately Radmo gave in and a few years later Kobe ran him off. It was either run him off, or, kill him.

And Walton is a nuisance as well and a fellow that Kobe has failed to impact. "First, do no harm" is my charter insistence, but, for Christ's sakes, 8 years later that's all one can hope/pray/hold Walton accountable to?

Farmar can't even perform to acceptable standards at the FT line. That's a death knell if he continues in such a manner.

Kobe does not possess nurturing qualities. It's just the way it is. Magic Johnson had those qualities. Kobe wants to browbeat one into doing things because he knows no other way. Magic held Riley, Scott, Worthy and Jabbar literally in his arms as he traversed Boston, Massachusetts in the Mid 80s. Let's see Kobe do likewise in the Summer of '10 in Boston, Massachusetts. If he does, I'll be bowin' at the waist, tipin' the Tam.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 12:49 PM

Lebron = best with athleticism
Kobe = best skilled

lefty

10-23-2009, 12:49 PM

Lebron = best with athleticism
Kone- = best skilled
Kone Nryant ?

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 12:50 PM

Kone Nryant ?

damn son your quick with the refresh..in before i even edited.

picc84

10-23-2009, 12:50 PM

No problem with this.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 12:51 PM

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 12:52 PM

Lebron can be #1 for the rest of Kobe's career. As long as Lakers win, its fine with me.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 12:53 PM

"making teammates better" is dumbest cliche in sports.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 12:54 PM

And for this year, Kobe's gonna add another "bad player" becomes "great player" in Ron Artest.

Or, will Artest end up on line with Tracy Murray, Mitch Richmond, Radmo, et al incapable of performing at the level they'd enjoyed 4 months earlier before becoming a Laker. I ain't worried about Artest goin' bozonuts. That's the least of my worries. I'm worried he'll "Radmo" on us.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 12:56 PM

As for the rest, get ready to be bowin' at the waist, tipin' the Tam, Dale.

Glorious day it would be indeed. Not since June 9, 1985 would I be so happy to bow & tip.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 12:58 PM

Allanon

10-23-2009, 12:59 PM

Or, will Artest end up on line with Tracy Murray, Mitch Richmond, Radmo, et al incapable of performing at the level they'd enjoyed 4 months earlier before becoming a Laker. I ain't worried about Artest goin' bozonuts. That's the least of my worries. I'm worried he'll "Radmo" on us.

This year's Lakers, including crazy Ron Ron, will be considered the best since the 80's Showtime.

If not, I'll never dare to argue with you again.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 01:00 PM

beign a positive leader on and off the court.

That ain't Kobe Byant.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:02 PM

Giving them confidence, passing them the ball every time the play calls for it (no matter how many times they fucked up before), beign a positive leader on and off the court. In other words playing the game in the right way.

and then lose?

Allanon

10-23-2009, 01:03 PM

"making teammates better" is dumbest cliche in sports.

Y'know, I always thought of it as writers making up a BS reason for Kobe not to get a season MVP.

But I'm starting to understand what really makes a great player like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan while other super talented players like Shaq are a cut below them. Shaq and LeBron are just flat out dominant and win through their own sheer greatness but I don't think they make their teammates better.

Kobe might yell, slap, hit, punch his teammates, but they all still respect and want to do well by him. As did MJ. They throw them the ball and "trust" them to make the shot when it's more like "you better make that bitch". And these guys want to make that shot so they earn Kobe's respect while at the same time, dodging a slap to the head.

Duncan does it through nurturing mostly and holding guys accountable.

It's for this very same reason that Kobe's gone from a spectacularly good player and ballhog into a winner "sans Daddy".

These guys get the most juice out of the guys that play with them.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:07 PM

"making teammates better" is dumbest cliche in sports.

Disagreed. IMO making teammates better might be the most important part of sports.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:09 PM

and then lose?

If you play the game in "the right way", you've a lot more chances of winning.

Spursfan092120

10-23-2009, 01:12 PM

Kobe...that is all. King James will only be a Prince until Kobe retires. He's still the best player in the league.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:12 PM

If you play the game in "the right way", you've a lot more chances of winning.

yah with Kwame, Luke, Cook and Smush as your starters. Bring on the rings! :rolleyes

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:15 PM

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:18 PM

Making teammates better is very important. Take the Billups/Iverson-Denver/Detroit case for example. I think 99,9% of the people will agree that Iverson is a more talented player than Billups, however Billups teams did much better than Iversons, that's 'cause Chauncey makes people around him better while AI makes them worst.

the right way is always better then the wrong way....but there is a thin line.

Knocking Kobe because he is winning with Gasol but couldnt with Smush and Kwame is just DUMB.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:18 PM

yah with Kwame, Luke, Cook and Smush as your starters. Bring on the rings! :rolleyes

Of course that besides "playing the right way", you need talent. But with talent alone you don't win shit. In fact I'm pretty sure that a team full of average players that play in "the right way" would beat a team of talented players that don't.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:19 PM

the right way is always better then the wrong way....but there is a thin line.

Knocking Kobe because he is winning with Gasol but couldnt with Smush and Kwame is just DUMB.

Who is doing that?

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 01:20 PM

I don't like it, but Kobe > Lebron.

Both guys can carry a team, but Bryant has done so with better results. Kobe has won many times on the biggest levels. Lebron has not.

Lebron is all muscle, athleticism, and hype. Kobe is a downright assassin on the court, and has been even after losing some of his athleticism.

Kobe has hit countless big playoff shots. ESPN lost its load last spring when "King James" hit what seemed to be his first.

But yeah, let's give it to the guy that can run fast and dunk hard. :rolleyes Never mind that Finals sweep.

That certainly wasn't LeBron's first big playoff shot. And let's not act like Kobe has never blown up when it comes to big shots in the playoffs. I'm sure you forgot about his performance against the Piston in 07 or his game winners against the Wizards.

lol at all hype. That's an ignorant statement. He was the most hyped player of all time coming out of high school and he's delivered and more. What exactly was Kobe doing when the Lakers 2nd best player was about as good as Mo Williams?

And using the Finals sweep against him is ever more retarded logic you're using. That's the most mediocre Finals team in the last 10 years probably (and that's including the Nets and Pacers) and it was a feat in itself he even got that team to that point.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:21 PM

Of course that besides "playing the right way", you need talent. But with talent alone you don't win shit. In fact I'm pretty sure that a team full of average players that play in "the right way" would beat a team of talented players that don't.

yah...i see that every time i play ball at the gym...when you see 5 black guys lose against 5 small asian dudes. LOL

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:22 PM

the right way is always better then the wrong way....but there is a thin line.

So you agree with me that "the making teammates better" thing isn't a dumb cliche.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 01:23 PM

What exactly was Kobe doing when the Lakers 2nd best player was about as good as Mo Williams?

Making the Playoffs in the West with 0 All Stars and Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton as starters. Seriously, those 3 guys wouldn't even make 3rd string on most NBA rosters but there they were, starters on a Western Playoff team.

But that was young selfish Kobeshow. Today's Kobe would take that morbid team into a 4th seed and possible WCF.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:24 PM

yah...i see that every time i play ball at the gym...when you see 5 black guys lose against 5 small asian dudes. LOL

:rolleyes way to fuck the argument up.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:25 PM

So you agree with me that "the making teammates better" thing isn't a dumb cliche.

no its still a dumb cliche to base it on a player.

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 01:26 PM

Making the Playoffs in the West with 0 All Stars and Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton as starters. Seriously, those 3 guys wouldn't even make 3rd string on most NBA rosters but there they were, starters on a Western Playoff team.

But that was young selfish Kobeshow. Today's Kobe would take that morbid team into a 4th seed and possible WCF.

LeBron took a shitty team to the Finals. Kobe took a shitty team to the first round or even didn't make the playoffs at all.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:27 PM

:rolleyes way to fuck the argument up.

its tru thoe. lol

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:27 PM

no its still a dumb cliche to base it on a player.

You'll see it when Artest cost you the championship this season.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:28 PM

LeBron took a shitty team to the Finals. Kobe took a shitty team to the first round or even didn't make the playoffs at all.

Lebron should win an award for taking his shitty team to the finals. :toast

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 01:28 PM

Lebron should win an award for taking his shitty team to the finals. :toast

Damn, good point laker fan.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:29 PM

You'll see it when Artest cost you the championship this season.

ahh so if artest does good, he was a good player all along, but if he blows up, its kobe's fault for not making him better.

Therfore, "Making teammates better" is a dumb cliche.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 01:30 PM

LeBron took a shitty team to the Finals. Kobe took a shitty team to the first round or even didn't make the playoffs at all.

That's exactly the point. Both guys won on sheer willpower alone those years...and that is what separates the two right now.

Kobe's matured beyond winning it by himself; LeBron is still stuck there despite having vastly improved his roster. It's still LeBron in Cleveland while it's the Lakers in the West.

That's why Kobe is the better player in my opinion.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:32 PM

its tru thoe. lol

We were talking about profesional players and you came up with that. Besides I've seen a lot of games where a bunch of unathletic old grandpas beat a group of talented and energetic 20 years old.

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 01:34 PM

That's exactly the point. Both guys won on sheer willpower alone those years...and that is what separates the two right now.

Kobe's matured beyond winning it by himself; LeBron is still stuck there despite having vastly improved his roster. It's still LeBron in Cleveland while it's the Lakers in the West.

That's why Kobe is the better player in my opinion.

This argument would be a lot less subjective if they've been in the league the same amount of time. We'll have to pick this back up in 10 years.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:36 PM

This argument would be a lot less subjective if they've been in the league the same amount of time. We'll have to pick this back up in 10 years.

this arguement you 2 are haivng is dumb...in 20 yrs...people will remember them for how many rings they won, just like noone is gonna remember Karl Malone. :rolleyes

Allanon

10-23-2009, 01:36 PM

This argument would be a lot less subjective if they've been in the league the same amount of time. We'll have to pick this back up in 10 years.

I'm not saying LeBron can't get there; and as you said, it's not really fair due to their varying time in the league.

You may say I am judging Kobe in front of Lebron unfairly because of this; but the list is for this year and I'm just speaking up to this point.

I agree, we'll have a much better look at it in 10 years.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 01:39 PM

ahh so if artest does good, he was a good player all along, but if he blows up, its kobe's fault for not making him better.

Therfore, "Making teammates better" is a dumb cliche.

Dude, you're arguing with me 'cause you assume that I bealive that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better and I never said that.

Kobe used to be a bad teammate but he matured, now he realizes that in order for his team to win he doesn't need to score 40 points per game, he just needs to play the game in the right way.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 01:45 PM

If you play the game in "the right way", you've a lot more chances of winning.

Nonsense.

TheMACHINE

10-23-2009, 01:50 PM

Dude, you're arguing with me 'cause you assume that I bealive that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better and I never said that.

Kobe used to be a bad teammate but he matured, now he realizes that in order for his team to win he doesn't need to score 40 points per game, he just needs to play the game in the right way.

im just arguing that in general, if you have crappy team you will lose regardless if you TRY to make your teamates better and that its dumb to base a player off that. Whether you score 40 points or have 40 assists. You do what you need to do to win.

If your teammates suck as bad as Kwame...you would like to the "right" thing and pass to him, but that shouldnt always be the case.

Not arguing totally against you DAF...i just hate arguements about making the teamates better cuz there are so many factors.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 01:50 PM

[[[Kobe's matured beyond winning it by himself]]]

That cake walk he was presented with didn't hurt a bit.

Kobe didn't mature, the tide just started moving the other way. It'd been moving against him since that Sun fell on Malone's leg. It happens that way in life. Just got to hope it don't get worse (in Bryant's case it got a lot worse before it reversed course).

Now he's got to grab with both ass scratchers as long as it lasts.

usdane

10-23-2009, 01:58 PM

About making teammates better.

I think it is as much a system thing and willingness to buy into the program. Phil Jackson is a good teacher and Kobe has developed into a leader.

back in 05' 06' Kobe had no choice but to score a lot and try to win games to pull a team of scrubs into the playoffs.

Kobe is now surrounded by capable players he trust now. As long as he command a double team the Lakers will have an edge.

I think Kobe can maintain his current level for the next 4-5 years. His game is not so heavily predicated on his athleticism anymore. He has become a floor general and relies on his pure basic basketball skills.

picc84

10-23-2009, 02:37 PM

picc84

10-23-2009, 02:41 PM

JamStone

10-23-2009, 02:53 PM

carrao45

10-23-2009, 06:03 PM

Psssst, Al, Kobe don't either.

Where've you been? Kobe makes his teammates better and it's not even debatable

carrao45

10-23-2009, 06:05 PM

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 06:09 PM

Gasol's numbers are near identical in Memphis and LA.

cobbler

10-23-2009, 06:17 PM

Who was passing who the ball in crunch time at the olympics?

sook

10-23-2009, 06:19 PM

I don't like it, but Kobe > Lebron.

Both guys can carry a team, but Bryant has done so with better results. Kobe has won many times on the biggest levels. Lebron has not.

Lebron is all muscle, athleticism, and hype. Kobe is a downright assassin on the court, and has been even after losing some of his athleticism.

Kobe has hit countless big playoff shots. ESPN lost its load last spring when "King James" hit what seemed to be his first.

But yeah, let's give it to the guy that can run fast and dunk hard. :rolleyes Never mind that Finals sweep.
I knew Kobe was better before last season but i thought lebron would pass him up the season after, this season, but Kobe's thirst to get better is never ending. For a guard he has ridiculously good post moves, but he still goes to Hakeem to refine them and get even better. Why he is the best isn't much of a secret. Lebron has yet to learn a post up move in a game or turn his jump shot into something more reliable.

#1 and #2 are always debatable, its not like there is a mile difference (other than the Jordan era)

cobbler

10-23-2009, 06:20 PM

Smush seemed like an adequate starter playing with kobe. he's not playing with Kobe now, he's out of the league.

Same with Brian Cook, who can't even get floor time now w/o Kobe.

And come on Pau is much better w/kobe than he as in memphis. Just look at his effeciency

Touchee! :toast

DAF86

10-23-2009, 06:25 PM

So you think its just a coincidence that the year his team drastically improves he becomes more of a team player...He just woke up one morning and thought to himself "maybe I should start passing more"? :huh

No, he obviously passes the ball more now 'cause he trust his teammates more.

But in order to take the best out of his previous "shitty" teammates, he should have played like he's doing right now with them. Of course it wouldn't have been enough to win the championship 'cause the talent wasn't there but it would have maximazed the potential of that team.

sook

10-23-2009, 06:27 PM

I agree with the top 3.

LeBron is the best "individual" NBA player. Based on sheer individual production, LeBron is the best.

But that's why things like this are skewed, since there subjectivity and different and varying factors people use to qualify and determine what player is better than another.

At the end of the day, it's probably a toss-up between LeBron and Kobe, but I think it's right if you view it strictly as which is the better individual player. Not who is a better winner or team player; not who is most skilled; not who is more clutch. Who is the better player? Who produces better? Individually, I'd agree with LeBron as the choice.

The flaw with your logic is, is that it depends on the context, the team. If i had a crappy team, and I wanted to get the most out of it, I would pick Lebron. The guy is a tripple double machine, but people are quick to associate triple doubles with some godly figure.

Kobe's offensive arsenal maybe one of the best of all time. Despite the fact he is aging and losing his athleticism it is extremely hard to see, the guy BARELY drove to the basket, actually he only drove like 5 or 6 times the entire series of the finals and still piled up 30ppg. The ability to pick and choose between your offensive abilities and still maintain scoring of that magnitude is downright unbelievable. His defense maybe overrated but that doesn't mean its bad, its overrated because he doesn't play defense all the time, which is understandable, but he is still a great defender at the same time. People are quick to place other dynaminc wings like t-mac a couple of years ago, and lebron now, as better than Kobe but they are disproven.. Kobe is the guy I would want on my championship team, he is that one scoring threat that no defense has an answer for, he is the only thing that slows himself down. You can't say that about Lebron though

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 06:31 PM

Does that mean pau makes kobe better?

Yes. And I said it first. Don't even start.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 06:32 PM

he is the only thing that slows himself down.

Damn fine point, sooker.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 06:35 PM

That ain't Kobe Byant.

yes it is

DAF86

10-23-2009, 06:36 PM

im just arguing that in general, if you have crappy team you will lose regardless if you TRY to make your teamates better and that its dumb to base a player off that. Whether you score 40 points or have 40 assists. You do what you need to do to win.

If your teammates suck as bad as Kwame...you would like to the "right" thing and pass to him, but that shouldnt always be the case.

Not arguing totally against you DAF...i just hate arguements about making the teamates better cuz there are so many factors.

What I'm trying to say is that "making your teammates better" isn't just a dumb cliche like you said. Of course that if you don't have the talent you won't win much, but "making your teammates better" isn't about winning or losing, it's about helping your team to be the best it can be, if you aren't good it's obvious that your best won't be enough to win.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 06:38 PM

That certainly wasn't LeBron's first big playoff shot. And let's not act like Kobe has never blown up when it comes to big shots in the playoffs. I'm sure you forgot about his performance against the Piston in 07 or his game winners against the Wizards.

lol at all hype. That's an ignorant statement. He was the most hyped player of all time coming out of high school and he's delivered and more. What exactly was Kobe doing when the Lakers 2nd best player was about as good as Mo Williams?

And using the Finals sweep against him is ever more retarded logic you're using. That's the most mediocre Finals team in the last 10 years probably (and that's including the Nets and Pacers) and it was a feat in itself he even got that team to that point.

And when the Lakers 3rd best player was worse than the Cavs' 5th best?

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 06:40 PM

yes it is

He's a phony baloney, carrao. He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar there in CO. and now he's interminably PO'ed because "everybody knows" his business, his trespasses. That's horrible for a human being to shoulder. How would you like "me" to know your deepest sin, your deepest secret, the worst thing you've ever done? You'd hate it and it would transcend you.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 06:42 PM

Gasol's numbers are near identical in Memphis and LA.

effeciency

carrao45

10-23-2009, 06:44 PM

and Kobe is much better w/pau. Does that mean pau makes kobe better?

Yes

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 06:48 PM

....& I said it first.

23LeBronJames23

10-23-2009, 06:53 PM

thats right niggas my nigga lebron is the best nigga in basketball of all nigga.that nigga kobe good and all but nigga lebron is the best nigga basketplayer NIGGA!

Allanon

10-23-2009, 06:57 PM

I think we'll find out how good LeBron is at leading his team this year versus what Kobe can do with a less star studded team

LeBron
1 HoF'er and All Star in Shaq who averaged 15 pts last year
1 All Star in Mo Williams who averaged 18 pts last year
1 Past All Star in Big Z who averaged 13 pts last year

Kobe
1 All Star in Pau that averaged 19 pts last year
1 Weed Smoker in Khlomar
1 Powder Keg in Ron Ron
1 Glass man in Andrew Bynum

23LeBronJames23

10-23-2009, 06:59 PM

I think we'll find out how good LeBron is at leading his team this year versus what Kobe can do with a less star studded team

LeBron
1 HoF'er and All Star in Shaq who averaged 15 pts last year
1 All Star in Mo Williams who averaged 18 pts last year
1 Past All Star in Big Z who averaged 13 pts last year

Kobe
1 All Star in Pau that averaged 19 pts last yearhow about
derek fsher"pro clutch shooter"
ron artest"crazy nigga"
lamar odom"candyman with ugly wife"
sasha"shoot machin

cobbler

10-23-2009, 07:01 PM

and Kobe is much better w/pau. Does that mean pau makes kobe better?

Absolutely!

DAF86

10-23-2009, 07:01 PM

I think we'll find out how good LeBron is at leading his team this year versus what Kobe can do with a less star studded team

LeBron
1 HoF'er and All Star in Shaq who averaged 15 pts last year
1 All Star in Mo Williams who averaged 18 pts last year
1 Past All Star in Big Z who averaged 13 pts last year

Kobe
1 All Star in Pau that averaged 19 pts last year

Wasn't Artest an all-star? Besides Pau will probably end up beign a Hall of Famer, and Phill Jackson is a Hall of Famer.

Besides, that's an idiotic way of comparing teams. For any non-biased NBA fan: Lakers > Cavs

Allanon

10-23-2009, 07:08 PM

Wasn't Artest an all-star? Besides Pau will probably end up beign a Hall of Famer, and Phill Jackson is a Hall of Famer.

Besides, that's an idiotic way of comparing teams. For any non-biased NBA fan: Lakers > Cavs

Nobody mentions Ron Ron being an All-Star...he's a "Powder Keg" that's going to explode the Lakers. Entire summer of talking about Ron Ron and I don't think I've ever heard of him being described as an All Star...I've heard alot of crazy Ron though :lol

Shaq on the other hand is a bonafide HoF'er who was an All Star last season alongside Mo Williams who's yet another All Star. That's 2 current All-Stars + 1 past 1 in Big Z.

Kobe only has 1 All-Star and that's Pau. How does Kobe get this less star filled roster to the Championship?

DAF86

10-23-2009, 07:12 PM

Nobody mentions Ron Ron being an All-Star...he's a "Powder Keg" that's going to explode the Lakers. Entire summer of talking about Ron Ron and I don't think I've ever heard of him being described as an All Star...I've heard alot of crazy Ron though :lol

Shaq on the other hand is a bonafide HoF'er who was an All Star last season alongside Mo Williams who's yet another All Star. That's 2 current All-Stars + 1 past 1 in Big Z.

Kobe only has 1 All-Star and that's Pau.

If you count Ilgauskaz all-star game you have to count Artests, besides you're forgetting the little detail of coaching.

And I already told you that is not a good way of comparing teams.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 07:14 PM

If you really look at it, Kobe's got the least Star power with him of the Big 5 contending teams:

Spurs: Tim Duncan, Tony, Manu, Dice, Grizzly Blair (5 All Stars)
Celtics: KG, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Sheed (5 All-Stars)
Magic: Dwight, VC, Jameer, Rashard (4 All Stars)
Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z (4 All Stars)

Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Crazy Ron (3 All Stars)

If Kobe wins the Championship again this year, he would have done so with the least star power of the 5 supposed "contending" teams.

KSeal

10-23-2009, 07:29 PM

If you really look at it, Kobe's got the least Star power with him of the Big 5 contending teams:

Celtics: KG, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Sheed (5 All-Stars)
Magic: Dwight, VC, Jameer, Rashard (4 All Stars)
Cavs: LeBron, Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z (4 All Stars)
Spurs: Tim Duncan, Tony, Manu, Dice (4 All Stars)

Lakers: Kobe, Pau, Crazy Ron (3 All Stars)

If Kobe wins the Championship again this year, he would have done so with the least star power of the 5 supposed "contending" teams.

Not if Bynum makes the all star team this year, which is a possibility.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 07:31 PM

Not if Bynum makes the all star team this year, which is a possibility.

Haven't you been reading the forums, Seal?

Bynum's over-rated except to us Laker fans. Let's not make up awards for our "over-rated" sucky players :lol

KSeal

10-23-2009, 07:35 PM

Haven't you been reading the forums, Seal?

Bynum's over-rated except to us Laker fans. Let's not make up awards for our "over-rated" sucky players :lol

Yeah, I know :). But he'll probably make the all star team this year by default.

dirk4mvp

10-23-2009, 07:36 PM

You also forgot the all star lock and mvp candidate Dejuan Blair for the Spurs.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 07:37 PM

You also forgot the all star lock and mvp candidate Dejuan Blair for the Spurs.

Good point. Fixed.

JamStone

10-23-2009, 08:10 PM

You didn't even realize it, but you actually agreed with what I was saying more than you pointed out a flaw. Yes, it depends on the context. That's why I specifically was talking about the list having subjectivity and being based on different factors. That's not a flaw. That's pointing out why my opinion agrees with a "subjective" list.

I don't really disagree with anything you wrote except for the fact that you think you were pointing out a flaw in my logic when you actually were just expanding on what I meant by the list relying on subjectivity and varying factors.

The flaw with your logic is, is that it depends on the context, the team. If i had a crappy team, and I wanted to get the most out of it, I would pick Lebron. The guy is a tripple double machine, but people are quick to associate triple doubles with some godly figure.

Kobe's offensive arsenal maybe one of the best of all time. Despite the fact he is aging and losing his athleticism it is extremely hard to see, the guy BARELY drove to the basket, actually he only drove like 5 or 6 times the entire series of the finals and still piled up 30ppg. The ability to pick and choose between your offensive abilities and still maintain scoring of that magnitude is downright unbelievable. His defense maybe overrated but that doesn't mean its bad, its overrated because he doesn't play defense all the time, which is understandable, but he is still a great defender at the same time. People are quick to place other dynaminc wings like t-mac a couple of years ago, and lebron now, as better than Kobe but they are disproven.. Kobe is the guy I would want on my championship team, he is that one scoring threat that no defense has an answer for, he is the only thing that slows himself down. You can't say that about Lebron though

picc84

10-23-2009, 08:10 PM

No, he obviously passes the ball more now 'cause he trust his teammates more.

But in order to take the best out of his previous "shitty" teammates, he should have played like he's doing right now with them. Of course it wouldn't have been enough to win the championship 'cause the talent wasn't there but it would have maximazed the potential of that team.

With the exception of Odom, every contributor of that team is today either buried on a bench somewhere or is out of the league. Many of them averaging career highs in points and field goal % with the Lakers. He was making half-way decent players out of guys who left and then couldn't earn playing time with lottery teams. If you don't think Kobe squeezed everything he could out of that squad to the capacity their abilities allowed, you probably weren't watching more than sportscenter highlights.

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 08:31 PM

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 08:35 PM

Last year, early in the season, I would have put LeBron at #1. But over the course of the season, I realized that LeBron's flawed as a leader.

Sure, he's a great player, powerful & fast. He's completely un-selfish and an excellent passer/playmaker.

But for all his excellence, he doesn't make his teammates better.

What is making his team-mates better?

Is it LeBron specifically taking JJ Hickson under his wing this off-season to teach him how to be a professional?

Is it being the guy in the locker room that obviously makes the chemistry great?

Is it calling out your team-mates and yourself to work harder after the loss to Orlando?

Allanon

10-23-2009, 08:38 PM

LOL at saying Big Z has star power. LOL at saying Mo Williams has star power.

I'm just the messenger, there must have been a good reason those guys are All-Stars.

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 08:41 PM

I'm just the messenger, there must have been a good reason those guys are All-Stars.

Does Big Z play at an all-star level now?

Allanon

10-23-2009, 08:45 PM

What is making his team-mates better?

Is it LeBron specifically taking JJ Hickson under his wing this off-season to teach him how to be a professional?

Is it being the guy in the locker room that obviously makes the chemistry great?

Is it calling out your team-mates and yourself to work harder after the loss to Orlando?

I think LeBron needs to do less actually. LeBron tries to do too much and when it's time for the other guys to step up, they freeze up.

During the Playoffs; the only hero was LeBron.

But if you look at the Lakers Playoff series, it was guys like Fisher (Magic), Lamar (Jazz), Shannon Brown (Nuggets), Ariza (Nugz/Magic).

LeBron's going through the same thing Kobe went through a few years ago; when he learns how to pick his spots and motivate his teammates, he'll be a complete player.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 08:45 PM

Does Big Z play at an all-star level now?

Nah, he doesn't, but then again, neither does Artest so it kinda evens out.

JoeTait75

10-23-2009, 08:46 PM

Allanon

10-23-2009, 08:50 PM

Ah, good ole' Allanon. It ain't but October and he's already in mid-season form. :downspin:

Good to see you Joe.

Just some early season humour to counter all the Powder Keg Ron Ron, Tissue Paper Pau, Bynum sucks, Lamar is a pot smoker but "Kobe only wins because he has a great team" hypocrisy.

It's amazing how all the maligned Laker players at ST have miraculously become this great deep team carrying Kobe to Championships. :lol

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 08:52 PM

But for all his excellence, he doesn't make his teammates better.

Yeah, Mo Williams was an all star in Milwaukee.

JoeTait75

10-23-2009, 08:55 PM

It's amazing how all the maligned Laker players at ST have miraculously become this great deep team carrying Kobe to Championships. :lol

Nah, I said the Lake Show had the best talent in the Association from the middle of last year on, and if anything they're more talented this year with Crazy Ron in the fold.

Hell, you could build a decent team around Pau. His presence alone makes L.A. better than Cleveland, everything else being equal. When Bynum is healthy the edge is that much wider. And then there's Lamar Odom, who is a top-ten player in terms of skill-set.

I think you need to get back into that 75-win mindset, Allanon. :toast

Kobe™

10-23-2009, 08:56 PM

Health + Defense= Repeat.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 08:56 PM

Yeah, Mo Williams was an all star in Milwaukee.

Mo's pretty much the same player he's been for the last few years. Good shooter but still doesn't show up in the big games.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 08:57 PM

Absolutely!

Exactly:toast

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 08:58 PM

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 08:58 PM

Mo's pretty much the same player he's been for the last few years. Good shooter but still doesn't show up in the big games.

And Gasol is the same player he was in Memphis, but his production and effeciency has gone up with Kobe on his team.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 08:59 PM

Nah, I said the Lake Show had the best talent in the Association from the middle of last year on, and if anything they're more talented this year with Crazy Ron in the fold.

Hell, you could build a decent team around Pau. His presence alone makes L.A. better than Cleveland, everything else being equal. When Bynum is healthy the edge is that much wider. And then there's Lamar Odom, who is a top-ten player in terms of skill-set.

I think you need to get back into that 75-win mindset, Allanon. :toast

I know you know whatsup, Joe.

I'm actually working on an 83 win high this year :lol

JoeTait75

10-23-2009, 08:59 PM

I don't know about Mo Williams, but Anderson Varejao probably wouldn't be in the league if not for LeBron James.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 09:01 PM

What is making his team-mates better?

Is it LeBron specifically taking JJ Hickson under his wing this off-season to teach him how to be a professional?What if it doesn't help? Are we allowed to make examples on what MIGHT happen?

Is it being the guy in the locker room that obviously makes the chemistry great?

Is it calling out your team-mates and yourself to work harder after the loss to Orlando?

carrao45

10-23-2009, 09:02 PM

Yeah, Mo Williams was an all star in Milwaukee.

Nope, and he wasn't in Cleveland either. He needed injuries to get him there

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:02 PM

And Gasol is the same player he was in Memphis, but his production and effeciency has gone up with Kobe on his team.

The big difference is Pau is no longer considered "soft" and unreliable in the clutch. You could say Kobe's determination rubbed off on Pau.

Mo still disappeared.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 09:04 PM

And Gasol is the same player he was in Memphis, but his production and effeciency has gone up with Kobe on his team.

So Gasol is pretty much the same, only a more effecient scorer

And Mo Williams is basically the same too, but he still can't show up when it counts

So...who helped their #2 more?

carrao45

10-23-2009, 09:05 PM

I don't know about Mo Williams, but Anderson Varejao probably wouldn't be in the league if not for LeBron James.

True

JoeTait75

10-23-2009, 09:05 PM

The big difference is Pau is no longer considered "soft" and unreliable in the clutch. You could say Kobe's determination rubbed off on Pau.

Or you could say that Pau was never soft and unreliable but got a bum rap for the playoff losses he took in Memphis, the same way KG got a bum rap in Minnesota and Dirk has gotten a bum rap in Dallas.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:07 PM

The big difference is Pau is no longer considered "soft" and unreliable in the clutch. You could say Kobe's determination rubbed off on Pau.

Or you could say Rashard Lewis was guarding him in the finals as oppose to Kevin Garnett and and Kendrick Perkins.

DAF86

10-23-2009, 09:07 PM

Almost every all star caliber player somewhat makes his teammates better. The mere fact Lebron and Kobe draw the best defender and are focused on that much by the other team makes their teammates better.

Iverson draws a lot of attention but he doesn't make his teammates better, Amare is another case like that, and I can think of many cases of star players that don't make their teammates better.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:07 PM

Or you could say that Pau was never soft and unreliable but got a bum rap for the playoff losses he took in Memphis, the same way KG got a bum rap in Minnesota and Dirk has gotten a bum rap in Dallas.

Oh Pau was soft alright. He was still soft in 08. It was until last year he really improved. Same with Odom and Ariza.

KG still isn't clutch.

I agree, Dirk gets a bum rap.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:07 PM

So Gasol is pretty much the same, only a more effecient scorer

And Mo Williams is basically the same too, but he still can't show up when it counts

How is Lebron supposed to magically make him clutch?

I guess Kobe gets blame cause he couldn't turn Smush Parker into a clutch player

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:08 PM

Or you could say Rashard Lewis was guarding him in the finals as oppose to Kevin Garnett and and Kendrick Perkins.

KG & Perkins both got smacked around by Pau and Lamar in the 2 regular season games.

They aren't the sisssy pushovers they used to be.

cobbler

10-23-2009, 09:10 PM

Or you could say that Pau was never soft and unreliable but got a bum rap for the playoff losses he took in Memphis, the same way KG got a bum rap in Minnesota and Dirk has gotten a bum rap in Dallas.

Wrong! All we heard after the loss to the Celts was how soft Gasol was.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:11 PM

KG & Perkins both got smacked around by Pau and Lamar in the 2 regular season games.

What does that prove?

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 09:12 PM

Nope, and he wasn't in Cleveland either. He needed injuries to get him there

Ok there we go.

LeBron has one all-star player, a guy who will be 38 by the time the playoffs roll around.

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 09:14 PM

Referring to JJ if you heard in talk and even play you could easily see LeBron has rubbed off on him. JJ is constantly referring to LeBron as the guy that showed him the way to become a professional basketball player.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:15 PM

What does that prove?

That Pau and Lamar are a helluva lot tougher than they were before. If you rememeber in 2008; the Lakers were manhandled by the Celtics both in the Regular season and the Playoffs.

Problems like that translate into the post-season.

Alot of people say "the regular season doesn't matter" but last season was proof positive that matchup isues don't just go away once the Playoffs begin. The same regular season issues held true throughout the Playoffs.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:16 PM

That Pau and Lamar are a helluva lot tougher than they were before. If you rememeber in 2008; the Lakers were manhandled by the Celtics both in the Regular season and the Playoffs.

Problems like that translate into the post-season.

Alot of people say "the regular season doesn't matter" but last season was proof positive that matchup isues don't just go away once the Playoffs begin. The same regular season issues held true throughout the Playoffs.

So having a deep playoff run and finals experience under their belt has nothing to do with it? It's a sure thing Kobe Bryant is what supposedly made them tougher players?

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 09:17 PM

I think LeBron needs to do less actually. LeBron tries to do too much and when it's time for the other guys to step up, they freeze up.

During the Playoffs; the only hero was LeBron.

But if you look at the Lakers Playoff series, it was guys like Fisher (Magic), Lamar (Jazz), Shannon Brown (Nuggets), Ariza (Nugz/Magic).

LeBron's going through the same thing Kobe went through a few years ago; when he learns how to pick his spots and motivate his teammates, he'll be a complete player.

A few years ago LeBron was doing the things Kobe is doing now.

See Damon Jones game winner. Daniel Gibson ECF game 6 performance.

Mo had a shot at being the hero and missed his tough chance in game one.

Edit* Delonte West 3 pt game winner against the Wizards.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:18 PM

So having a deep playoff run and finals experience under their belt has nothing to do with it? It's a sure thing Kobe Bryant is what supposedly made them tougher players?

Absolutely. Teams like San Antonio have multiple playoff runs and experience under their belt yet fail to repeat.

Having the experience just isn't good enough, you have to have the mentality and that comes from your leader.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:19 PM

Having the experience just isn't good enough, you have to have the mentality and that comes from your leader.

The same mentality that blew a 3-1 series lead.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:20 PM

A few years ago LeBron was doing the things Kobe is doing now.

See Damon Jones game winner. Daniel Gibson ECF game 6 performance.

Mo had a shot at being the hero and missed his tough chance in game one.

It wasn't just one win or two; it was the entire series. Everybody expected LeBron to bail them out and weren't ready to step up. And he did a great job but I think he tried to do too much; much like Kobe used to.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:20 PM

The same mentality that blew a 3-1 series lead.

But you wouldn't know anything about that seeing as how you were a Spurs fan in 2006.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:20 PM

The same mentality that blew a 3-1 series lead.

Kobe's learned that less is more. People say he's lost a step, but the reality is he's gotten wiser. If Kobe wanted to average 30 points this year, he could. But he won't.

Today's Kobe is a complete player whereas young Kobe was a ballhog who tried to do too much. That's where the distinction between being a great individual player and being a Great player who makes his teammates better.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:23 PM

Today's Kobe is a complete player whereas young Kobe was a ballhog who tried to do too much. That's where the distinction between being a great individual player and being a Great player who makes his teammates better.

I never said he didn't make his teammates better. If you think he didn't make his teammates better in 2006 then you're retarded.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:24 PM

I never said he didn't make his teammates better. If you think he didn't make his teammates better in 2006 then you're retarded.

I think he made his teammates better but he still tried to do too much.

Of course LeBron makes his teammates better; but he is also still trying to do too much.

That's the difference between Kobe and LeBron right now. Kobe's learned that less is more while LeBron is still willing his team to victory.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:25 PM

I think he made his teammates better but he still tried to do too much.

Of course LeBron makes his teammates better; but he is also still trying to do too much.

As long as you acknowledge it.

And what exactly was he supposed to do differently against Orlando?

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 09:28 PM

And what exactly was he supposed to do differently against Orlando?

Stay out of the side door at crunch time.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:29 PM

Stay out of the side door at crunch time.

Was that shot he hit during game 2 "staying out of the back door"?

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 09:31 PM

Was that shot he hit during game 2 "staying out of the back door"?

But, ultimately James failed, DUNCAN. When Kobe fails he is held to accounts, and rightfully so. When James fails he too will be held to account on this Forum.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:32 PM

But, ultimately James failed, DUNCAN. When Kobe fails he is held to accounts, and rightfully so. When James fails he too will be held to account on this Forum.

If Kobe had the supporting cast Lebron had, would the results against Orlando be any different?

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:33 PM

As long as you acknowledge it.

And what exactly was he supposed to do differently against Orlando?

This is a season long building process, I knew last year the Cavs wern't going to win it and I said as much. Nothing he could have done better in Orlando.

LeBron has to take a back seat to his guys and build their confidence from Day 1 of training camp.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 09:35 PM

If Kobe had the supporting cast Lebron had, would the results against Orlando be any different?

No. James failed and no amount of "Ifs" is gonna get him off the hook. Until he rings, he's fair game, DUNCAN, and I'm gonna ride that f'k on this Forum good & proper.

And that is just the way its gonna be.

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 09:35 PM

This is a season long building process, I knew last year the Cavs wern't going to win it and I said as much. Nothing he could have done better in Orlando.

LeBron has to take a back seat to his guys and build their confidence from Day 1 of training camp.

LeBron doesn't give his team mates confidence? BS

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:37 PM

LeBron doesn't give his team mates confidence? BS

Even Cleveland fans often say LeBron tries to do too much.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 09:38 PM

LeBron doesn't give his team mates confidence? BS

Keep in mind this is coming from a person who says Anthony Randolph has hit his ceiling as a player.

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:40 PM

Keep in mind this is coming from a person who says Anthony Randolph has hit his ceiling as a player.

Still holding true so far.

KidCongo

10-23-2009, 09:40 PM

Even Cleveland fans often say LeBron tries to do too much.

Is this in regard to the isolation offense?

Allanon

10-23-2009, 09:46 PM

Is this in regard to the isolation offense?

Not the isolation offense, that's a coaching thing. Rather, it's in regard to him shooting contested 3 pointers or going 1 on 5.

We know he can go 1 on 5, but it's not necessary.

Riverwalkman

10-23-2009, 09:48 PM

965 viewers and 151 replies...

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:01 PM

How is Lebron supposed to magically make him clutch?

I guess Kobe gets blame cause he couldn't turn Smush Parker into a clutch player

:lol I didn't mean LeBron could have any effect on Mo's clutchness. Clutchness is a mindset, you can't give that. Although Smush did have those Clutch steals against the Suns in game 4...

But mostly I was joking

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:03 PM

What does that prove?

The regular season does matter. Maybe not when the good teams play shit teams, but when two great teams go at each other...they go at it HARD, and those games are a good indicator for the playoffs

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:04 PM

Ok there we go.

LeBron has one all-star player, a guy who will be 38 by the time the playoffs roll around.

Yup.

But it might be more fair to say he has an All-Star, and an Almost-All-Star

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:06 PM

The same mentality that blew a 3-1 series lead.

Can you really deny that Kobe has matured since then?

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:09 PM

If Kobe had the supporting cast Lebron had, would the results against Orlando be any different?

You hold Kobe accountable for losing to that Suns team with shit teammates, yet because it's LeBron the shit teammates become a valid excuse?

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:11 PM

LeBron doesn't give his team mates confidence? BS

He consistently reduces his teammates to standing on the perimeter waiting for him to drive and kick. That's all they do when Bron pounds he ball, that's not confidence building

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-23-2009, 10:35 PM

You hold Kobe accountable for losing to that Suns team with shit teammates, yet because it's LeBron the shit teammates become a valid excuse?

Neither one should be held accountable for either. I just wanted someone to admit Lebron has shit teammates.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 10:42 PM

Neither one should be held accountable for
either. I just wanted someone to admit Lebron has shit teammates.
They should both be held accountable for those defeats. Credit for the win & Blame for the loss

And Bron's teammates aren't shit. They aren't the best in the league, but they aren't shit.

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 11:34 PM

He consistently reduces his teammates to standing on the perimeter waiting for him to drive and kick. That's all they do when Bron pounds he ball, that's not confidence building

Word.

23LeBronJames23

10-23-2009, 11:36 PM

They should both be held accountable for those defeats. Credit for the win & Blame for the loss

And Bron's teammates aren't shit. They aren't the best in the league, but they aren't shit.

without LeBron Cavs wont make playoffs for sure even though they have "2 all stars" and 1 former all star

Culburn369

10-23-2009, 11:40 PM

without LeBron Cavs wont make playoffs for sure even though they have "2 all stars" and 1 former all star

Making the playoffs ain't gonna cut it for LeBron. Another tap out like in Orlando and James is gonna have some major problems, chief.

23LeBronJames23

10-23-2009, 11:45 PM

Making the playoffs ain't gonna cut it for LeBron. Another tap out like in Orlando and James is gonna have some major problems, chief.

thats why this is the year when he has to go all the way.

carrao45

10-23-2009, 11:54 PM

thats why this is the year when he has to go all the way.

That was supposed to be last year, but since he lost it'll be this year people say he has to win one. And when he loses again, people will say, "It's OK, he's on25." This will continue until he loses into his prime. At that point it will be painfully obvious that no more excuses can be made for him.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 12:00 AM

thats why this is the year when he has to go all the way.

This will be his last attempt with [grace] included.

JoeTait75

10-24-2009, 01:05 AM

He consistently reduces his teammates to standing on the perimeter waiting for him to drive and kick. That's all they do when Bron pounds he ball, that's not confidence building

He does have that habit. He does tend to dominate the ball too much at times. That can't be argued.

That also ties into his lack of a post game, which is by far his biggest defect as a player IMO. It's damn near criminal that a man of his size and strength doesn't have a functioning post game.

I do think his game suffers from a lack of quality offensive coaching.

KidCongo

10-24-2009, 01:09 AM

He consistently reduces his teammates to standing on the perimeter waiting for him to drive and kick. That's all they do when Bron pounds he ball, that's not confidence building

Post up AV?
Post up Z?

It's not most of the Cavs players games to create offense for themselves.

He does at times hold the ball too long and dribble out past the 3 point line but that's a pretty effective way in the final moments for the Cavs to close out a game.

The Cavaliers had the best offense they have had in years last year so it can't have been as bad as you proclaim.

KidCongo

10-24-2009, 01:13 AM

He does have that habit. He does tend to dominate the ball too much at times. That can't be argued.

That also ties into his lack of a post game, which is by far his biggest defect as a player IMO. It's damn near criminal that a man of his size and strength doesn't have a functioning post game.

I do think his game suffers from a lack of quality offensive coaching.

I really hope his apparent work in the post and around the elbow this off-season actually gets shown in games. I'd say he has a chance of shooting over 50% this season.

TheMACHINE

10-24-2009, 02:25 AM

Did Lebron make his teammates better in the ECF 2009?

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 06:21 AM

Did Lebron make his teammates better in the ECF 2009?

No. Lebron didn't even make himself better in the ECF 2009. He fled the side door striking a template for Howard to use against Bynum in the Finals 2009.

dirk4mvp

10-24-2009, 08:17 AM

No. Lebron didn't even make himself better in the ECF 2009. He fled the side door striking a template for Howard to use against Bynum in the Finals 2009.

You're an idiot.

dirk4mvp

10-24-2009, 08:18 AM

Did Lebron make his teammates better in the ECF 2009?

He sure wasn't at fault for Mo Pippen Williams shooting 40% in the playoffs.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 09:25 AM

You're an idiot.

Sure.

& yer O & forever.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 10:11 AM

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Ok, smartass, right now/this minute:::would you trade Duncan for James?

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 10:32 AM

There is absolutely no argument for Kobe being the best player in the league. LeBron does more with less, and his numbers absolutely obliterate Kobe's.

Please, he couldn't even get past a piss poor Magic team with Hedo & without Nelson. For the love of Pete, James couldn't even stay in front of Hedo!

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 10:35 AM

Why do Boards/Forums/Fandoms put an ounce of stock in All Star Games? I don't understand it. It's a political process via the fans voting, or, the coaches choosing. Fellows, please, I beseech you:::act like somebody! I'm embarrassed for ya's.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 10:43 AM

Duncan is my boy, so I wouldn't. I'd trade the rest of the team for him and run with d-leaguers, though.

Honest answer. I didn't think you would. Duncan, unlike James does not leak.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 10:49 AM

The Magic presented matchup problems that centered around Howard. Had little to do with Hedo. Hedo worked James over pretty good, Damus. James wanted it handed to him, and the Magic refused to go along. He wanted to get to the Finals and Kobe, but, didn't want to pay the price. Kinda like Favre wants to get to the Super Bowl but won't go to training camp.

Answer me 2 things:
1) How many games did the Cavaliers lose in the playoffs before they were matched up with the Magic? I don't know. I don't keep track of such minutia.
2) Who was guarding Howard for the Lakers? And who was guarding Howard for the Cavs? Yeah, and the Lakers watched film of Howard and concocted that strategy. The Cavs tried to take everything away from Howard and in their comprehensive foolishness they stopped nothing.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 10:56 AM

You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Someone paste the numbers LeBron put up in that series for this child.

You mean like the numbers kobe had in 06 & 07 when everyone was saying WOW look at those numbers but he doesn't make his teamates better? Sometimes lees is more...

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 11:02 AM

You mean like the numbers kobe had in 06 & 07 when everyone was saying WOW look at those numbers but he doesn't make his teamates better?

& then they proceeded to frog march Bryant to the tree of woe & crucified him.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 11:21 AM

What I really like about those stats I just pasted are the assist to turnover ratios for Kobe Bryant! Brilliant!

But, they both lost, Damus. Bryant was scorned whilst James gets a free ride (so far).

wanggi

10-24-2009, 11:29 AM

Whatever you said, Coldbee is still a Colorado Rapist.
And you, Cubby, still a fake 15-time NBA World champion.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 11:42 AM

That couldn't have had anything to do with James putting up some of the best numbers of all-time, making one of the biggest shots most people have ever seen, and a clear matchup problem with Howard -- in which he had absolutely no fault in.

And also, the big key here is... Kobe was OUT IN THE FIRST ROUND. James was in the ECF.

**I'll get to you in a second, wangi...

I don't want to hear that "James was in the ECF"....uh, uh, we ain't doin' that here. The mark is winning the NBA Finals. That's it. That's been the mark for many, many moons. James failed, just like Bryant.
But, James gets a soft seat. Just not on this Forum.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 11:43 AM

And you, Cubby, still a 15-time NBA World champion.

Thanks, wangi.

JoeTait75

10-24-2009, 11:46 AM

For the love of Pete, James couldn't even stay in front of Hedo!

LeBron didn't even guard Hedo in the series. Delonte West did.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 11:48 AM

LeBron didn't even guard Hedo in the series. Delonte West did.

Not every possession, no, but, James guarded him frequently, and many times he could not stay in front of Hedo. Hedo worked him over like a $3 whore.

JoeTait75

10-24-2009, 11:53 AM

Not every possession, no, but, James guarded him frequently, and many times he could not stay in front of Hedo. Hedo worked him over like a $3 whore.

That's not true. He did not guard him frequently. Delonte guarded him the lion's share of the series, and when Delonte wasn't guarding him, Sasha Pavlovic was.

LeBron spent most of the series shadowing Rafer Alston, a Mike Brown strategy that was rendered bankrupt over the course of the series, yet was never really altered. Hedo hit the go-ahead shot in Game 2 over Pavlovic.

Believe me, I would have loved to have seen LeBron on Hedo more.

You want to criticize LeBron legitimately, I'm all ears. I know his game has holes. But this one isn't legit.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 11:57 AM

That's not true. He did not guard him frequently.

Yes, it is true.

JoeTait75

10-24-2009, 12:01 PM

Yes, it is true.

No, it is not. Delonte and Pavlovic were on Hedo.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 12:07 PM

No, it is not. Delonte and Pavlovic were on Hedo.

Yer incapable of objectivity. I saw it. I ain't blind.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 12:16 PM

Lol. For the vast majority of the games and, more importantly, on important late game possessions, LeBron was NOT defending Hedo Turkoglu in the Cleveland- Orlando series last year.

It doesn't take objectivity for that. That's fact.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 12:17 PM

When Lebron switched over to guard Hedo off a pick, Hedo pretty much did what he wanted. That's why we didn't see Lebron demanding he guard Hedo in the clutch. He knows he wasn't able too and loves his precious highlight weak-side shot blocks.

Kobe always has and remains a superior man defender than Lebron.

Lebron still has a laughable post game and mid-range jumper. Once that athleticism of his starts to go he will decline much more significantly than Jordan or Kobe.

But hey, Lebron can take that worthless Slamonline recognition and the media voted MVP and Kobe will take that 5th ring and another finals MVP.

At the end of the day, Kobe will retire with more championships than Lebron James.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 12:31 PM

JamStone

10-24-2009, 12:31 PM

If Kobe ended his career today, does Scottie Pippen go down as the better player?

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 12:32 PM

If Kobe ended his career today, does Scottie Pippen go down as the better player?

Toni Kukoc notwithstanding.

tee, hee.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 12:33 PM

So will Robert Horry. I guess that makes him better.

Congratulations, you know how to use a strawman!

We're talking about transcendental players here, not roleplayers.

Allanon

10-24-2009, 01:35 PM

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Good answer when you can't come up with anything.

Allanon

10-24-2009, 01:37 PM

But that isn't the point. Because Kobe was out in the first round. Hell, one year, he didn't even MAKE the playoffs.

There is absolutely no argument for Kobe being the best player in the league. LeBron does more with less, and his numbers absolutely obliterate Kobe's.

You are making my point for me right there.

"LeBron does more with less." Absolutely, LeBron dominates games night in and night out. LeBron had like 4 All-Stars with him last year but got bounced against the Magic in the ECF. That's because LeBron still thinks he has less even when he has talent around him.

Outside of LeBron, did anybody make any game-winning plays in the ECF last year?

On the other hand, guys like Shannon Brown (yes, he was LeBron's teammate before), Trevor Ariza and Fish all saved the day for the Lakers. These aren't All-Stars, they're role players doing their job.

Shannon Brown, playing with LeBron got his ass traded to the Bobcats
Shannon Brown, playing with Kobe, just got a 2 year extension

Kobe gets the most out of his guys where LeBron will still try to do it all...and that's why Kobe makes his teammates better and LeBron does not.

23LeBronJames23

10-24-2009, 01:40 PM

Yer incapable of objectivity. I saw it. I ain't blind.

Go to google images and search "Hedo Turkoglu vs Cavs playoffs"
Look thru couple of pages and tell me how many times u saw LeBron guarding Hedo and how many times u saw Delonte west.

i saw like 1 pic lebron guarding hedo but lebron was just behind him. and i saw like 7 pics with delonte guarding hedo

JustBlaze

10-24-2009, 02:00 PM

http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/files/2009/05/wadecelebrating1.jpg

#1 muthaf*ckas, #1!

Allanon

10-24-2009, 02:24 PM

Um, probably because it didn't even deserve an explanation, because of how absurd and uninformed it was. LeBron averages almost a triple double. To say he doesn't make his teammates better, when every year he trumps Kobe in assists and assist/TO ratio is, quite simply, hilarious and idiotic.

You're just like animals that eat everything given to them without knowing what they're eating.

LOL. 4 All-Stars? Please tell me who these 4 All-Stars were? Mo Williams was the only other all-star and he was a fill-in player because someone got injured.
Mo Williams, Big Z, Wally Szcerbiak, Ben Wallace

Meaning what? LeBron can't create for teammates? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, you laugh when you can't come up with anything intelligent

Yeah, that proves a lot. It wouldn't have anything to do with a rookie that didn't see the floor half of the time now developing.

The proof is in the pudding. Anything else is just an excuse.

So... he got the most out of his guys when he was losing in the first round and not making the playoffs... gotcha. And LeBron wasn't making his teammates better when he took Larry Hughes/Eric Snow starting at point guard to the NBA finals. Brilliant!

It's brilliant that you know nothing?

Larry Hughes - 22 pt scorer until he joined LeBron and became 15ppg
Erric Snow - 10 ppg until he met LeBron and became 4ppg

You laugh at guys like Larry Hughes & Eric Snow...those weren't guys you laughed at until they met LeBron. Look it up.

23LeBronJames23

10-24-2009, 03:04 PM

if not LeBron Mo would still be dreaming about making the All Star team or playstation skills challange

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-24-2009, 03:05 PM

You're an idiot.

Post of the thread, then again it's rather obvious someone who lives in the ghetto and has no job is probably an idiot.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 03:09 PM

Go to google images and search "Hedo Turkoglu vs Cavs playoffs"

I done told ya's, I don't do URLs, or Internet searches. If I see something, or, hear something, that's good enough for me. I don't live or labor to please others.

And I saw James guarding Hedo in the ECFs. And furthermore I saw Hedo takin' James to school.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 03:10 PM

Post of the thread, then again it's rather obvious someone who lives in the ghetto and has no job is probably an idiot.

& a 15 time NBA World Champion.

Yer O & 41!

tee, hee.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-24-2009, 03:11 PM

I done told ya's, I don't do URLs, or Internet searches.

Is this code for you have no proof or evidence to back up the retarded shit you say?

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 03:12 PM

Is this code for you have no proof or evidence to back up the retarded shit you say?

I don't do proof or evidence. It's my religion.

If I see it, or, I hear it. That's good enough for me.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-24-2009, 03:12 PM

& a 15 time NBA World Champion.

Yer O & 41!

tee, hee.

You take your make believe championships, I'll take living in an area without having to worry about a Mexican shooting my house up.

Tee, hee.

DUNCANownsKOBE2

10-24-2009, 03:13 PM

I don't do proof or evidence.

Yeah we know, cause it's pretty impossible to give proof or evidence for the garbage you post.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 03:13 PM

You take your championships, I'll take living in an area without having to worry about a Mexican shooting my house up.

Tee, hee.

Deal.

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 03:14 PM

Yeah we know, cause it's pretty impossible to give proof or evidence for the garbage you post.

That garbage has you enthralled.

lmcontrollinao!

sook

10-24-2009, 03:28 PM

23LeBronJames23

10-24-2009, 03:31 PM

I don't do proof or evidence. It's my religion.

If I see it, or, I hear it. That's good enough for me.

cuz u know wat im sayin is true but you dont wanna accept so you make up some of the lamest exuses ever.

Allanon

10-24-2009, 03:46 PM

I guess that makes sense. Nevermind, it doesn't at all.

Didn't know they were on the all-star team last season... or even on the ballot for that matter.

That doesn't change the fact that they were All-Stars.

Again, it's so moronic that it doesn't deserve anything else.

Don't worry, I know how you hide when you have no answers.

Boy, Kobe sure did resurrect Shannon Brown's career! To the tune of 4PPG and 0.8APG! At point guard! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, you know nothing but pretend to know. Shannon Brown, who used to play for LeBron before he got shipped out, was a hero in the Nuggets series. Let's just bold the "LOL" and add a few exclamation points to try and cover up idiocy.

Funny, as soon as he(Hughes) left Cleveland, he was putting up the same numbers. And the reason Eric Snow previously scored 12 a game was because his minutes got eaten in half, for one, and two because he was on the tail end of his career. Your arguments are seriously laughable.

More excuses for the King? You laughed at these guys yourself, but forgot that they were respectable players before teaming up with LeBron.. Now you laugh at them after they've playing with LeBron? You're breaking down your own argument....hmmmm.

LeBron's so good at making teammates better that Larry Hughes improved from 22 ppg to 15ppg
LeBron's so good at making teammates better that Eric Snow improved from 10ppg to 4ppg
LeBron's so good at making teammates better that Big Z improved from 17ppg to 14ppg

Wow, LeBron's great at making teammates better. Stop your stupid opinions and show me some numbers.

Don't waste my time with more of your pitiful excuses and little bitch laughing when you don't have an answer.

You say LeBron makes his teammates better....has ANY free agent coming to LeBron gotten better?

cobbler

10-24-2009, 04:48 PM

Kobe Bryant:

2006 NBA playoffs: 27.9PPG(49%FG), 5.1APG, 6.3RPG, 1SPG, 0.4BPG, 4.7 TOPG
2007 NBA playoffs: 32.8PPG(46%FG), 4.4APG, 5.2RPG, 1SPG, 0.4BPG, 4.4 TOPG

LeBron James:

2009 ECF: 38.5PPG(49%FG), 8APG, 8.3RPG, 1.2SPG, 1.2BPG, 4.1TOPG

Obliterated.

Thank you, come again.

I'm back...

Obliterated? You are the brightest are ya?

Same shooting %. Lebron avg 2 more rebounds a game playing SF vs SG. Big surprise there! 1 block more a game playing SF as opposed to SG. Yet another surprise... I'm so stunned! And 3 more assists per game for Bron. Well, last time I looked, the guy you pass it to has to make the basket for you to get the assist. Who would you rather pass to for the bucket? Z or Kwame? Mo or Smush? Brillo head or Walton? Kwame, Walton, and Smush shot a combined 39% over those 2 playoff series. Z, Vaj, and Mo shot 44%.

Suprisingly you left out 3pt % and FT%. Ill get those for ya...

Kobe:
2006 NBA playoffs: 40% 3pt, 77% FT
2007 NBA playoffs: 35% 3pt, 92% FT

LeBron:
2009 Playoffs: 33% 3pt, 74% FT

BTW... your numbers for Lebron were just for the series... not the playoffs which were 35 ppg, 7 apg, and 9 rpg respectively.

Obliterated? I think not. Very similar... and Kobe got the "He doens't make his teamates better rap and Lebron got the "He's all about getting his teamates involved" love.

So, let's for the sake of argument say Lebrons numbers were ALL that much better, though you have clearly mislead/shown they weren't.

You miss the whole point originally made. Kobe was cruicified because he took too much on his own. Didn't trust his teamates and shot himself etc etc. They shot the same % and Lebron scored 8 to 10 more points. That would imply that Lebron shot more. Yet again, Kobe is the ball hogging selfish bastard that doesn't make his mates better, and Lebron with numbers that were similar is the better teammate and media darling.

Well... until he lost and made a fool of himself.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 06:54 PM

Obliterated was a bit of an exaggeration, but Kobe has never come close to averaging 8 apg, not in the playoffs or regular season, not with Smush and Kwame and Walton, not with Shaq and Glen Rice and Horry. I think trying to justify the difference in assist numbers on Kobe's behalf is a futile effort. Kobe isn't the type of player to average 8 apg. And 38 ppg versus about 31 ppg is a pretty stark difference. If you compare 31 ppg to 24 ppg, you'd think it's a big difference. 38 v. 31 is huge for a scoring difference.

It would be like comparing Kobe's 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg and comparing them to another player putting up 24 ppg, 2 apg, and 4 rpg. So, yeah, LeBron's numbers are very impressive compared to Kobe's.

But, yes, saying "obliterated" is a bit much. Those Kobe numbers are actually still very impressive.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 07:00 PM

Then I guess you have to look at it as Kobe has 1 ring, because he was Shaq's role player bitch for 3 rings.

Spoken like someone that knows nothing about basketball.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 07:03 PM

Toni Kukoc notwithstanding.

tee, hee.

Toni Kukoc doesn't have more rings than Kobe.

Scottie Pippen does.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 07:04 PM

Kobe isn't the type of player to average 8 apg. .

Of course Lebron doesn't play in Phil Jackson's triangle. His assists would decline just like Jordan's did if he played in that system. If you knew anything about the triangle offense, you would understand this.

8 assists, Kobe could do that if he went out and tried while playing in the Doug Collins offense. He has the passing ability for that type of average. Waste of his talent though.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 07:05 PM

Of course Lebron doesn't play in Phil Jackson's triangle. His assists would decline just like Jordan's did if he played in that system. If you knew anything about the triangle offense, you would understand this.

8 assists, Kobe could do that if he went out and tried. He has the passing ability for that type of average. Waste of his talent though.

I actually do understand that. In fact, I've argued that very thing before on these boards.

That would have been a stronger argument. Problem with that is that cobbler didn't argue that. He blamed Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton for Kobe not averaging 8 assists, not the triangle.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 07:12 PM

Oh ok. Didn't read through all of Cob's posts.

To digress a bit I'd also argue that Lebron is an overrated rebounder.

For his size I'd expect him to be a better offensive rebounder. Right now he lines up and plays some power forward at times. The entire Cleveland team clears out on the defensive end if Lebron is anywhere near a rebound. It's quite obviously by design, similar to what the Nets use to do with Jason Kidd.

Kobe at his height and size, should not be averaging around the same amount of O rebounds as 6'8 265 Lebron James.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 07:20 PM

Pretty tough criticisms of LeBron's rebounding, especially considering he was the second best rebounder at the small forward position last year after Gerald Wallace. LeBron did play stretches of games at PF, but not that much.

As for his offensive rebounding, it's similar to your argument about Kobe's assist totals in the triangle offense. LeBron is always attacking the rim, so he's rarely in position to rebound the offensive glass. The Cavs offense doesn't really allow for him to be a great offensive rebounder because he's not only the primary scorer but the primary play maker. Plus, the Cavs over the last few seasons have been one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league because Z, Varejao, (formerly Gooden), Ben Wallace last year are all above average offensive rebounders. That's not what they ask of LeBron. Just like getting high assist totals isn't whag the triangle allows any one player to get.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 07:33 PM

Culburn369

10-24-2009, 07:45 PM

Lebron is only ringless because

I don't want hear that shit. It don't matter why he's ringless. That motherf'er is ringless and I intend string that ringless bastard up by his Buster Browns, whistle the loops (take out my belt) and beat his ass like two Jap flags until he rings.

What was good for Kobe Bryant is good for LeBron James.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 07:47 PM

I actually do understand that. In fact, I've argued that very thing before on these boards.

That would have been a stronger argument. Problem with that is that cobbler didn't argue that. He blamed Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton for Kobe not averaging 8 assists, not the triangle.

You are both correct, the use of the triangle is a better argument but I was trying to put up an argument using numbers as I don't think Spurstrodamus has the ability to grasp the nuances of the triangle. With that said, I dont think its a real stretch to argue that when your passng to guys who shoot 39% on uncontested shots due to Kobe's commanding double and triple teams, that that will cost you 2 assists per game. But in fairness, that works both ways.

As for the 8 pts a game. Of course its a stark differense. But their shooting % was the same so it was obvioulsy done with more shots. I don't think taking more shots constitutes getting your players involved and making them better. Look at the stats that show when Kobe shoots less than 21 times a game they have a better winning % than when he shoots more.

Their numbers were pretty darn similar with the slight edge going to Lebron. Clearly not an obliteration! And the "making your teamates better" is way overblown. And you could never convince me that that the Lakers team of 06-07 is anywere near as talented as the 09 squad of the Cavs.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 07:52 PM

Sorry, that argument doesn't work in comparison to a shooting guard 3inches shorter, that weighs 50 pounds less being a better offensive rounder. Especially when Big Z is spreading the floor for James these past few years. The fact that Lebron takes more shots in the paint is even more indicative. By default it puts him the best position on the floor to rebound his own miss. 80% of Kobe's shots are jumpers.

And yes I'll say better. Watch when Kobe goes after an offensive board off a free throw compared to Lebron.

When LeBron attacks the rim, he gets fouled or dunks it. He doesn't miss a lot of dunks/lay-ups, thereby when he does attack the rim, he's not in position to rebound because he's not missing or he gets fouled. Zydrunas Ilgauskas has a career average of 3.1 offensive rebounds per game, 3.9 or per 36 minutes. Z may take a lot of jumpers, but when he isn't, he's positioning himself down low to rebound the offensive glass.

Again, LeBron isn't asked to attack the offensive glass. He attacks it, and if he isn't fouled and actually does miss, his front line teammates have generally been good offensive rebounders. Could he be a better offensive rebounder? Sure. But considering how much responsibility he already has on offense, I think it's a pretty petty criticism. And, if you're going to criticize his offensive rebounds, must mean he is all the more impressive as a defensive rebounder if he's the second best rebounding small forward even with being what you find as an underachieving offensive rebounder.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 07:58 PM

You are both correct, the use of the triangle is a better argument but I was trying to put up an argument using numbers as I don't think Spurstrodamus has the ability to grasp the nuances of the triangle. With that said, I dont think its a real stretch to argue that when your passng to guys who shoot 39% on uncontested shots due to Kobe's commanding double and triple teams, that that will cost you 2 assists per game. But in fairness, that works both ways.

As for the 8 pts a game. Of course its a stark differense. But their shooting % was the same so it was obvioulsy done with more shots. I don't think taking more shots constitutes getting your players involved and making them better. Look at the stats that show when Kobe shoots less than 21 times a game they have a better winning % than when he shoots more.

Their numbers were pretty darn similar with the slight edge going to Lebron. Clearly not an obliteration! And the "making your teamates better" is way overblown. And you could never convince me that that the Lakers team of 06-07 is anywere near as talented as the 09 squad of the Cavs.

Kobe: 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player: 24 ppg, 2 apg, 3 rpg, 49% FG

If we were comparing Kobe to another player and the stats were above, would you say those stats are "pretty darn similar" with the "slight edge" to Kobe? I have a hard time believing you or any Laker fan saying that.

Not an "obliteration," but a convincing enough difference that saying they are "pretty darn similar" is more than a stretch to the other extreme as well.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 08:02 PM

When LeBron attacks the rim, he gets fouled or dunks it. He doesn't miss a lot of dunks/lay-ups, thereby when he does attack the rim, he's not in position to rebound because he's not missing or he gets fouled.

Lebron misses 36% of his close range shots. So that's not true at all. Doesn't change the fact that Big Z brings his man out to the perimeter more often than not, giving Lebron an even bigger chance at grabbing that O board.

ydrunas Ilgauskas has a career average of 3.1 offensive rebounds per game, 3.9 or per 36 minutes. Z may take a lot of jumpers, but when he isn't, he's positioning himself down low to rebound the offensive glass.

Big Z still has no vertical to speak of. If there is a questionable rebound between the two he'll defer to Lebron every single time. Cleveland wasn't very good O rebounding team last season either. Contrast to previous years.

Again, Lebron played 19% of his minutes at PF. Which puts his man closer to basket. Which means a greater chance to grab rebounds in general.

Again, LeBron isn't asked to attack the offensive glass. He attacks it, and if he isn't fouled and actually does miss, his front line teammates have generally been good offensive rebounders. Could he be a better offensive rebounder?

Yes he could be a better offensive rebounder and should. Just like Shaq could and should have been a better defender. Lebron does alot of relying on his physical prowess.

Sure. But considering how much responsibility he already has on offense, I think it's a pretty petty criticism. And, if you're going to criticize his offensive rebounds, must mean he is all the more impressive as a defensive rebounder if he's the second best rebounding small forward even with being what you find as an underachieving offensive rebounder.

Yes James is a very good defensive rebounder. As I touched on above, the entire scheme of Cleveland's defense is to clear the paint so Bron can grab the board and bring the ball up the court. Nothing wrong with that, but the fact his team funnels him easy boards remains.

Good rebounder, just not fantastic for the most athletic 6'8, 265 forward the league has ever seen.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:04 PM

The last three seasons, LeBron has had teammates with the following offensive rebounding numbers:

2008-09
Ilgauskas - 2.40 orpg
Ben Wallace - 2.40 orpg
Varejao - 2.00 orpg
Joe Smith - 1.70 orpg

2007-08
Ilgauskas - 3.60 orpg
Wallace - 2.70 orpg
Varejao - 2.80 orpg
Smith - 2.00 orpg
Dwayne Jones - 1.20 orpg

2006-07
Gooden - 3.30 orpg
llgauskas - 3.10 orpg
Varejao - 2.40 orpg
Donyell Marshall - 1.10 orpg

So, you have to understand that with multiple bigs who are very good offensive rebounders and with the toll LeBron already takes attacking the rim and carrying the scoring and playmaking load, to criticize him for not being a better offensive rebounder is a pretty shallow slam.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 08:07 PM

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:11 PM

Lebron misses 36% of his close range shots. So that's not true at all. Doesn't change the fact that Big Z brings his man out to the perimeter more often than not, giving Lebron an even bigger chance at grabbing that O board.

So you're saying LeBron makes 64% of his close range shots? How many non-centers makes 64% of their close shots? That's actually pretty incredible considering how much he does attack the basket and take contact.

Big Z still has no vertical to speak of. If there is a questionable rebound between the two he'll defer to Lebron every single time. Cleveland wasn't very good O rebounding team last season either. Contrast to previous years.

Check those numbers I just posted.

Last year, Z averaged 2.4 orpg in 27 mpg. That would be 3.2 offensive rebounds per 36 minutes and would put him right near the top in the league, no hops or not.

Again, Lebron played 19% of his minutes at PF. Which puts his man closer to basket. Which means a greater chance to grab rebounds in general.

And, defensively, he was outstanding. Playing PF in a small ball line-up doesn't change his role on offense as perimeter facilitator, play maker, and scorer. His defensive rebounding was outstanding for a small forward who plays PF in small ball line-ups. So, your point carries little merit.

Yes James is a very good defensive rebounder. As I touched on above, the entire scheme of Cleveland's defense is to clear the paint so Bron can grab the board and bring the ball up the court. Nothing wrong with that, but the fact his team funnels him easy boards remains.

Good rebounder, just not fantastic for the most athletic 6'8, 265 forward the league has ever seen.

I guess defenses completely get out of the way as well so LeBron can pad his rebounds? What kind of shit is that argument? Oh right, a shit argument.

His Cavs teammates may have done that once in a while, like at that Madison Square Garden game when LeBron was trying to get a triple double with one more rebound in the final few possessions of a game that was over. But to say his teammates did that with regularity, which would compromise the team and its defense, is pretty far fetched. Come on now.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:14 PM

Kobe played with rebounders like Shaq. Now with Odom, Gasol, Bynum.

It's not shallow at all. Being funneled D rebounds and then not putting effort to grab offensive rebounds when you have the best basketball body in the NBA is silly. With Lebron's size, quickness and strength he should be murdering the offensive boards.

Once again, stop with this. So, defenses down box out LeBron in fear of him not getting his rebounding averages? I don't doubt that if it's anyone's rebound to be had among the Cavs players with no chance of the other team getting it, his teammates will defer to LeBron at times. But, that's not happening very often, not even every game. And LeBron still has to go get it.

The hatorade in you is strong, young padawan.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:15 PM

Kobe: 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player: 24 ppg, 2 apg, 3 rpg, 49% FG

If we were comparing Kobe to another player and the stats were above, would you say those stats are "pretty darn similar" with the "slight edge" to Kobe? I have a hard time believing you or any Laker fan saying that.

Not an "obliteration," but a convincing enough difference that saying they are "pretty darn similar" is more than a stretch to the other extreme as well.

Your manufactured stats aren't the same ratio as the real thing.

Shooting % is shooting %. There is no fudging there. They are equal.

You used a ratio of 2/5 (40%) and 3/6 (50%) for your numbers above for assists and rebounds respectively. The real life ones were 5/8 (62%) and 6/8 (75%).

So to answer your question. You are correct, I wouldn't, and i doubt any laker fan would call those close to similar.

Nice try though! :toast

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 08:20 PM

Once again, stop with this. So, defenses down box out LeBron in fear of him not getting his rebounding averages?

How about you stop with the strawmans? You can do better.

I don't doubt that if it's anyone's rebound to be had among the Cavs players with no chance of the other team getting it, his teammates will defer to LeBron at times. But, that's not happening very often, not even every game. And LeBron still has to go get it.

Happens all the time on the defensive end. It's Cleveland's scheme for Bron to rebound the ball on defense.

The hatorade in you is strong, young padawan.

Not hating here at all. Pointing out why Lebron's "stats" aren't that much more impressive than Kobe's as you said. Look at what each player is working with. But it's cool we can disagree.

Now let's talk about the elephant in the room. Where the fuck is Lebron Jame's post-game? He won't have that vertical and explosion forever.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:20 PM

This is all conjecture and the bottom line is both are awesome players that put up outstanding numbers. I'd still take Kobe over Lebron at this stage simply for the mental and work ethic aspects. The scales are shifting though and will continue to do so. It happens to all of them... even the best.

Ill ask you this... you put Lebrons skill set in Kobes body or Kobe's in Lebron. Which would you choose?

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 08:23 PM

Ill ask you this... you put Lebrons skill set in Kobes body or Kobe's in Lebron. Which would you choose?

Kobe in Lebron's body wouldn't even be fair.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:26 PM

Kobe in Lebron's body wouldn't even be fair.

Touchee! Can you imagine? I'd bet my house his numbers would blow what Lebron is doing today right off the charts.

With that said... watch out if LBJ actually figures it out and puts the game above molding the persona.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:28 PM

Your manufactured stats aren't the same ratio as the real thing.

Shooting % is shooting %. There is no fudging there. They are equal.

You used a ratio of 2/5 (40%) and 3/6 (50%) for your numbers above for assists and rebounds respectively. The real life ones were 5/8 (62%) and 6/8 (75%).

So to answer your question. You are correct, I wouldn't, and i doubt any laker fan would call those close to similar.

Nice try though! :toast

Ratios? 7 more points is 7 more points. 3 more assists is 3 more assists. Why should we use ratios?

But, fine, let's use ratios.

Kobe - 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player - 25 ppg, 3 apg, 4.5 rpg, 49% FG

That's using your "ratios." Would you say those stats are pretty darn similar with the slight edge to Kobe?

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:30 PM

How about you stop with the strawmans? You can do better.

Happens all the time on the defensive end. It's Cleveland's scheme for Bron to rebound the ball on defense.

Not hating here at all. Pointing out why Lebron's "stats" aren't that much more impressive than Kobe's as you said. Look at what each player is working with. But it's cool we can disagree.

Now let's talk about the elephant in the room. Where the fuck is Lebron Jame's post-game? He won't have that vertical and explosion forever.

Why did you avoid responding to any of the actual points of substance?

You avoiding all of the substantive points completely... smh.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:34 PM

Ratios? 7 more points is 7 more points. 3 more assists is 3 more assists. Why should we use ratios?

But, fine, let's use ratios.

Kobe - 31 ppg, 5 apg, 6 rpg, 49% FG
Random player - 25 ppg, 3 apg, 4.5 rpg, 49% FG

That's using your "ratios." Would you say those stats are pretty darn similar with the slight edge to Kobe?

Yes!

You are talking about 2 assists and 1.5 rebounds over an entire game. That's one or 2 deflected balls or tips. And one of the figures has a dependency on teammate production.

My point ORIGINALLY was that Kobe got absolutely villified and Lebron was considered the ultimate teammate with very similiar and outstanding numbers. I'll stand by that.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:35 PM

Ill ask you this... you put Lebrons skill set in Kobes body or Kobe's in Lebron. Which would you choose?

I don't think there's any question that Kobe has the better skill set, more polished skill set. LeBron's physical strengths are what makes him so great. So why would you even ask this question?

It would be just like asking whether you would take Kobe's body with LeBron's style of play or LeBron's body with Kobe's style of play.

The question doesn't give any more insight to the discussion.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:36 PM

I don't think there's any question that Kobe has the better skill set, more polished skill set. LeBron's physical strengths are what makes him so great. So why would you even ask this question?

It would be just like asking whether you would take Kobe's body with LeBron's style of play or LeBron's body with Kobe's style of play.

The question doesn't give any more insight to the discussion.

Was just a side thought... Lighten up.

21_Blessings

10-24-2009, 08:37 PM

Why did you avoid responding to any of the actual points of substance?

Try and make a point that isn't a straw man.

You avoiding all of the substantive points completely... smh.

Your hypocrisy is grand. As you avoided all my points of substance completely.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:42 PM

Yes!

You are talking about 2 assists and 1.5 rebounds over an entire game. That's one or 2 deflected balls or tips. And one of the figures has a dependency on teammate production.

My point ORIGINALLY was that Kobe got absolutely villified and Lebron was considered the ultimate teammate with very similiar and outstanding numbers. I'll stand by that.

I think you're full of shit, but ok.

So let me ask you this, in last year's playoffs, do you think that Brandon Roy was pretty darn close to being as good as Kobe with Kobe having merely a "slight edge" in his playoff performance?

KB - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, 45.7% FG
BR - 26.7 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 45.9% FG

Guess Laker fan should start speaking Brandon Roy's name in the discussion of the best players in the league. tlongII will be thrilled.

23LeBronJames23

10-24-2009, 08:42 PM

[QUOTE=21_Blessings;3768722]Lebron misses 36% of his close range shots. So that's not true at all.

so he makes 64%. Thats pretty darn good. you know

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:44 PM

Was just a side thought... Lighten up.

Uh was just a response to your side thought... don't be so sensitive.

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:44 PM

I think you're full of shit, but ok.

So let me ask you this, in last year's playoffs, do you think that Brandon Roy was pretty darn close to being as good as Kobe with Kobe having merely a "slight edge" in his playoff performance?

KB - 30.2 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.5 apg, 45.7% FG
BR - 26.7 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 45.9% FG

Guess Laker fan should start speaking Brandon Roy's name in the discussion of the best players in the league. tlongII will be thrilled.

Yes... the are pretty darn close. And yes, Roy is in the discussion as one of the better players in the league.

The only edge I truly care about is with W's. And in that catagory... it's all Lakers and Kobe!

cobbler

10-24-2009, 08:46 PM

Uh was just a response to your side thought... don't be so sensitive.

Oh yeah... Im so torn up over forum bantar.

JamStone

10-24-2009, 08:48 PM

Try and make a point that isn't a straw man.

Your hypocrisy is grand. As you avoided all my points of substance completely.

Lol, I actually responded to your points.

Why didn't you respond to me responding to your "Z has no hops and therefore isn't a good offensive rebounder" with statistics to prove otherwise?

Why didn't you expound further on how defenses don't box out LeBron so that his teammates can funnel defensive rebounds to him?

Making 64% of close range shots is outstanding even for a big man, more especially for a small forward. Why didn't you respond to that after trying to flip the number by saying he misses 36% of his close range shots as if that meant he missed a lot of his shots.

Why don't you respond to the post I made that highlighted how many teammates he's had that were above average if not great offensive rebounders, rendering it unnecessary for LeBron to also crash the offensive glass?

Respond to those substantive points.